How to Make Lasting Changes in Your Life with John Norcross

One has to be aware of a goal and be committed to it. But once you reach that point, willpower is seriously overrated. Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great tinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true, And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't

have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Our guest this week is Dr John Norcross, who is an

internationally recognized expert on behavior change. He is Distinguished Professor of Psychology at the University of Scranton and a Board certified psychologist. He is author of the acclaimed self health book Change Oology, and has authored over four publications and has co written and edited twenty two books principally in the areas of psychotherapy, clinical psychology, professional training, and self change.

I was particularly interested to talk to him because he is one of the researchers who has been involved in how to change our behavior for a long time and is really regarded as a true expert in this field. So here is our interview with Dr John Norcross. Hi, John, welcome to the show. Thank you, Eric, my pleasure to join you. I am really excited to have you on.

We're going to discuss your book, which is called change Oology, Five Steps to Realize in your Goals and Resolutions, and it's really good and it's right in the sweet spot of what we talked about on this show and a lot of the work that I do with my coaching clients. But before we get into that, let's start like we always do with the parable. There's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson. He says, in life, there are two

wolds inside of us that are always at battle. What is a good one, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and thinks about it for a second, and he looks up at his grandfather and says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in

the work that you do. Well. That parable means many things to me, but three or four immediately jump out. First, that humans are invariably composed of this multitude of conflicting parts, good and bad, love and hate, extrovert and introvert. In psychology, it could be it in super ego or top dog and underdog, and other classic polarities. Second, the parable means that we sew what we reap be careful which parts of us we nourish and promote. That's the self for

wolf that will eventually predominant. Eight third, I also like the parable because it demonstrates that it is largely within our powers to determine which self or wolf, if you will, we become. And finally, as a relatively new grandparents, I endure the transfer wisdom across the generations grandparents to grandchild. Now that's a wolf. We should all feed. Amen to

that and congratulations, Thank you. All right, So let's jump into your book, and I want to start with a really important point, and I'm just going to read something you wrote. You say, one of the colossal mistakes people make when trying to change is overestimating the value of

motivation while underestimating learnable skills. And what I love about that is that people tend to think that they're just not able to change, or there are a certain type of person, or I think one of the things I've really learned is that yes, change is possible if you know how to do it. So talk a little bit about for me, please. I would love to. I like

to scream it from the rooftops. There's science of behavior change and we can harness the power of that in order to help people change both minor habits and major life transformations. You know, motivation and willpower obviously are important in getting started. One has to be aware of a goal and be committed to it. But once you reach

that point, willpower is seriously overrated. And in fact, in one of our studies, people who almost exclusively use willpower failed it twice the rate of everyone else, because it's exactly at that point that you need skills do this, do that, watch that, make sure you do this, rather than the rah rah rath. So we call this the

willpower myth. People believe the willpower is the end all and beat all, and in fact, as you know and virtually all coaches and psychotherapists know, willpower is necessary early on but actually hurts later in the change process. Yeah, exactly, And I think that's so important. And again I think the message there, I think is critical is you can learn how to make changes. Have you've failed in the past at changing things, that doesn't mean that you're going

to fail again if you have different skills. That's exactly the case, and that's the secret of our forty years of research into how people do change by themselves. It's the stage matching doing the right thing at the right time. Yes, and so let's go into that. You have been part of some of the seminal research on how we change behavior and something that I have done a lot of study on myself, and you guys identified five distinct stages of behavior change, and your book you modify them a

little bit. So I want to stick with your book and have you tell us what are the five steps in your book of change. The first stage is the psych stage that's getting motivated, aroused, eager. The second stage is then the prep short for preparation, taking those little baby steps and moving forward. Third is the perspire stage, in which you jump into action, modifying your behavior and the environment to pursue the goal. But we know it doesn't stop there. The fourth stage is persevere that you

keep going. And fifth and last is the maintenance or what we prefer to call the persist stage. So it's psych, prep, perspire, persevere,

and persist. So when people asked me how to change, I say, well, I know you're eager to hear the how to do it, but the key to successful behavior change is when you do what M right, and you call that step match where the activities that you do match the stage that you're in, and that you also refer to step mismatching, where you're doing activities or things that don't align where with the stage that you're in, and that when you're matched, you're doing well, and when

you're not, you're failing or you're more likely to fail. And and you've already introduced one of those, the excessive use of will power and arousing emotions once you get into the action or perspire stage, that actually sends you backwards. You're sabotaging yourself. Once you're in that action or perspire stage, one needs to go to the skills now. Conversely, when you begin, it's too early for the skills because you're

not there yet. You do need to track your progress, to commit, to raise your awareness, to arouse your emotions, to get to the starting line, so to speak. So it really is doing the right thing at the right time. Where once you get in to perspire, persevere and persist in what way does willpower or sort of reflecting on your commitment or your why right, how does that get us into trouble? Well, if it's the occasional reminder, it proves helpful. But instead of using skills, people just try

to raw raw rab themselves. To take a recent example of patient return to Me, who had largely conquered his addiction for fifteen years, and as he began experiencing cravings again after the loss of his long term spouse, he just tried to keep saying I can do it, I can do it, like the little engine. I had to patiently remind him it was the skills that were necessary. He needed to reward himself. He needed to catch his

thinking that he's been abstinent for fifteen years. He needed to learn how to deal with the cravings, not as a slogan, but as a series of skills. He needed to rearrange his environment, He needed to reach out to his support system. They are all skills, as you said, Eric, that any of us can learn. So it's do this, do that when you're in the perspire, not I can do it, I can do it. I can do it. Yeah,

that's great. And so I think one of the things that's important here is most of us when we think of change, we think of the perspire stage, right, which is, if I want to start an exercise routine, I just start running tomorrow, right. That's where our our mindset is. We don't think about the two stages before or the

stages after, about how you keep going. And I mentioned the coaching work that I do, and I used to work with people much more short term, but I realized over time that we would be in the perspire stage, stop working together, and they would not have the skills to keep it going what you call persevere and persist. That's exactly the case. Particularly Americans conflate the entirety of the change process with beginning at that perspire or action stage.

But as most of us know, you have to get up and ready for action, and that means identifying goals, tracking your progress, taking the baby steps, committing, I might add Eric, and since you have lots of experience traveling that in other parts of the world, particularly Europe, there is far better respect for the early steps or stages that prepare you and get you motivated. We Americans seem to think change means your behavior tomorrow right right exactly.

And so one of the things that's really interesting about your research is that the idea of going through these steps in order is so important. You say, each step that you take nearly doubles the probability of your long term success. So I think what you're saying is people who do psych and get through that in to prep, they've doubled their chance. And each time you successfully complete a step, you're doing the same thing exactly so, and that's what makes it such a powerful key to guiding

successful behavior change. And we also find that in all kinds of studies. As you know, Eric, there's been well over a thousand studies using this stages of change model and everything imaginable, from addictions to depression, to spousal abuse to eating disorders and the like. Each step one masters you move up the probability of success. And if you

think about it, it makes perfect sense. If you were to say bacon apple pie, Well, you couldn't just sit there at the stove and say, well, now I'm going to bake. You know, you would have to buy the ingredients, you would have to carve out some time, you'd have to turn on the oven, you have to make the pie. In virtually all complex human activities, there's a sea quents,

a matter of stages to get there successfully. So the other thing that you talk about that is important is you talk about preparing to follow the program for ninety days, You say, research indicates that people who maintain a goal for a week gradually slipped back. But research shows that almost all the people who maintain a new behavior for

three months make the change permanent. We're shore, we're shorter, and my publisher wish it were shorter, because then we could make outrageous claims the five day, five steps in five days, right, well, why not exactly saint your brain in forty eight hours. But grain and behavioral research convincingly demonstrate it really is about ninety days to traverse all these stages and to get to the place that it becomes an ingrained, permanent lifestyle rather than a temporary run.

As we frequently say, behavior change is not the hundred yard dash. It is, indeed a marathon. You need to concretely build in the new behavior, resist temptations, and then maintain it over time. And I'm sorry, folks, it really is ninety days, yep, But I mean that's pretty good news.

Ninety days is three months. I mean, that is not It's not the twenty one days A lot of us keep hearing, you know, about habit change, But it's also not forever and there are very clear things that you do in each of these stages, and there's very clear things that you do as we get into persevere or persists or maintenance that make it more likely we're going

to get there. But before we do that, I want to talk about the contemplation stage or the psych stage, because you talk a lot about people who get stuck there, that this is a place we often get stuck. Indeed, we call it chronic contemplation. You're aware of what you want to achieve and where you want to arrive, but you're simply not ready yet. And to the extent that we're all anxious about behavior change, we all struggle. The more difficult it is to get out of the contemplation

stage and into preparation and action. In fact, that's where most people get stuck. And it may be because, as you mentioned earlier, they have failed before, they have lacked the experience and skills to know what to do at the right time. As a result, they may be demoralized, They may be feeding themselves self defeating thoughts like it will never happen, or they may have unrealistic expectations about

the ease. You know, our research shows was virtually all big behavioral changes, it is going to take a couple

of times in order to make it. So if you try to change a behavior reach your goal and you don't succeed the first time, that pretty much beings your human rather than you can't change right, right, And I was going to come to this at a later point in the conversation, but it's so important we might as well hit it because we're kind of there right now, which is it is a process of you say, slipping,

learning from the mistake, and trying again. Right, we are inevitably not going to be perfect at what we do. There are going to be slips, and knowing that that's

the case is so important. One of the things that I find is so important is if you know that, then you can just learn from it, like you say, without all the emotional baggage that comes because what ends up happening for a lot of us is we slip and then we start telling ourselves how we can't do it, and all the baggage and emotional stuff comes up that really blocks the learning process of learning. Okay, well, what

happened there? All right, let me tweak this, let me do this a little bit differently exactly so, and that's part of those unrealistic expectations. The single slip suddenly transforms into the permanent fall. Demoralization and resignation results just as you said, and people don't try it again. By contrast, once people realize the slip is a natural occurrence and it need not derail your entire process, people keep going

on without that guilt and embarrassment. And in fact, in one of our New Year's resolution studies, the people who were eventually successful in their resolutions told us that their first slip actually strengthened their resolution. In fact, it was over three quarters of them, and they said that woke me up, It made me recommit, redo the skills. And this is just as I said earlier, a natural part of learning. And by the way, Eric, we would never ever think a single slip would be a fall in

any other activity. Imagine trying to play the piano and failing once or twice on a particular piece and giving up. Or how about math problems or hitting a tennis back end. If we all gave up after a single slip, no one would be growing and developing at all. But when it comes to behavior change, we had these outrageous expectations

of ourselves. Yeah, I totally agree. The other thing that you mentioned is that the number of slips does not predict whether or not you will eventually reach your goal. And I think that's so important because it does take time.

I often talk to people I'm a recovering alcoholic and heroin addict, and so that space is, you know, a place I've been in for for a long time, and I often think about, you know, recovery for most people that I see as sort of what we're describing here, it's like I come in, I start doing something that didn't quite work. So I come back, I start doing a few things, I get maybe a little bit more time, and then it didn't work. And it's this process of

just sort of learning what works for me. Like you said, my experiences people who have slipped a bunch or relapsed a bunch of it's not an indicator that they can't do it. It's not an indicator of long term sobriety not being possible. It's a learning process exactly so. And it's also trial and error learning about what to do when right, that is, and that's the key to that stage matching so many people creatively adapt change techniques every week.

I'm impressed by my patients and my students, but unfortunately they don't understand the big picture, the forest from the tree, so to speak. So they come up with brilliant ways of motivating themselves and getting emotional, they don't realize they're doing it at the wrong time. So my professional coaching is just to have them do the right thing at the right time, and that's when the magic occurs. Yep, exactly.

And so I want to talk about another idea here, which is really around, you know, sort of looking at our motivation, are our goals, and you talk about using two energy sources. When we're looking at you talk about being pushed and pulled, and so it's really on one hand, we're looking at the negative consequences of of what has

happened to us. Some people focus exclusively on that, and then you also talk about the positive consequences are positive things that might happen, and a lot of people really focus on that, but you really encourage people to use both of those things, and you call them energy sources, and obviously using two is better than one. That's exactly right, And we sometimes refer to this as Dr Doolittle's two headed push pull Lama, because we know two heads or

two energy sources are better than and one. So on the one hand, or the one head, if you'll pardon a pun, pushed away from the problem because you can't stand it any longer. So you are pushed by your disgust. On the other hand or head, you're pulled toward change in the new behavior. So it is a push pull. And our research indicates that using both sources of energy are better than either alone. And I'm sure you've seen

this many times in your own practice, Eric. We see people sort of like Calvinists, who say, I'm just going to be disgusted by how I've already acted and that will get me there. I also see some other people, say let's call him the California surfers, who say, nah, man, I don't want to get into that negative head trip. I'm just gonna like see, the world is full of

fluffy clouds, and I'm moving towards my ideal dream. You know, I'm gonna have a dream board, I'm gonna have slogans and say, well, why would we not use both potential sources. Let's be pushed and repulsed by what we don't like while we're simultaneously drawn to that better ideal future. Yeah, I think that said so well. And I was being interviewed on a podcast several days ago and people were asking me about the concept of a bottom. How important

is hitting the bottom right? And I said, well, you know, there's a lot of things I could say about that, but what I would say is that that's not sufficient. Right. What worked for me was when a series of negative consequences came together with hope of a different future and then the right support. When those three things sort of came together, and that was the sort of fertile ground that my sobriety or change came out of. And this

is kind of really what we're talking about here. It's the negative consequences, but it's also the hope, it's the vision of what might be. And in my experience of those both aren't there in some measure. The change isn't gonna last. Yes, So the delicate balance is how to get both of them. So we suggest that every time you reflect on your problem or your goal, develop that habit of considering both the nasty present and the wonderful future.

After you change, you can train yourself to reflect on both and to be propelled by both, and obviously that doubles the energy and noticeably increases the success. Yeah, I am right on there with you. So I want to talk about the importance of a change team or a support team, or having people in your corner, you know, talk about how important this is. Well, it's incredibly important, particularly in the long run. So here's the fascinating thing

about this social support. Sometimes we call them the delta team, delta meaning change or your change team. Social support is not particularly helpful in the short run. It appears that virtually all of us can get started without social support, and even in the presence of some negative or nagging people in our lives. But our research and that of others shows very quickly, usually within two weeks to a month, the absence of the helping relationships predicts who will fail.

So you might get started and go it alone, but no man is an island a month into their change attempt. That's when you need people to guide you, to support you, to remind you of your successes, perhaps to do some of the change with you. They're a wonderful asset, and even though they may not be particularly helpful early on. We like everyone to have created their go team early in the change process us to see them through the later stages. It's one of the things that's recommended to

do in the prep phase. Well, it starts in the prep stage, so they're with you through the perspire, the persistent, the persevere. Each stage requires something a little different from your helping team. As you can imagine, early on, it's more motivation and goal setting. Once you get started, they can share some of their experiences, their techniques, remind you that you're doing well, and then once you're in that persevere they're going to remind you how well you've done.

They may be the people you contact if when you're experiencing cravings or when you're tempted to give it all up, so their task will also evolve across the steps or stages. We could all use the occasional nudge, a little wake up from the autopilot we fall into in our day to day routine. That's why we send brief text reminders to listeners of the show for free. The texts help you stay on track with what you're learning from the podcast.

Episodes we release on Tuesdays and Friday's They periodically prompt you to pause for a second and become more present and mindful, and encourage you to engage with the week's podcast topics in a bite sized, short and simple manner. We've heard from listeners that these texts help them take a moment to reconnect with what's important amidst the business of daily life. Someone said it feels like a little bit of wisdom is being whispered into my psyche, which

I thought was cool. So if you'd like to hear from us a few times a week via text, go to one you feed dot net slash text and sign up for free. One of the strategies that is used in the action phase or the perspire phase is countering, and I'd like to talk a little bit more about countering. Countering is essentially right putting in a positive behavior in place of the negative behavior. But you talk about some different countering methods, and I think it's really useful to

think through what some of these are. So can we talk through some of the most common countering methods? You bet? So? Countering short for the long jargon of counter conditioning is doing the healthy opposite, and for virtually every problem in goal, there is a healthy opposite. So let's say one is battling anxiety. What's the healthy opposite of that, Well, it's relaxation. But it's not enough just simply to know the opposite.

You have to develop and practice the skills. Otherwise, the Sigmund Freud once observed it's like showing a starving person menu and not giving them any food. So for the anxious person, we would teach relaxation, biofeedback, mindfulness. If physical activity also helps suthe your anxiety, then it might be an exercise program. If you're battling depression, the two major

components of that are social withdrawal and low mood. So for the social withdrawal, there would behavioral activation, getting out there, pushing yourself to be regularly involved with other people and pleasurable activities. To capture your mood, it would be doing

some what we call cognitive restructuring. For people who are avoiding things in their life, then the healthy opposite or countering technique would be exposing themselves intentionally to them slowly and perhaps in the imagination first, and perhaps with a member of your change or helping team. So for every problem, there's a healthy opposite. You need to not only identify it, but then to practice those particular skills. So let's talk

about a simple one. I know that a lot of people that listen to the show, we've gotten a lot of response in the past when we talk about eating, emotional eating, or you know, people who have sort of identified like, all right, I'm eating and it's more than just being hungry. What is one of the counters you would have people use in a point where they're dealing with that. So for that particular goal, we would identify

two sources of problematic behavior. The first is obviously the overeating itself, and the second is the residual emotional hunger. What you're trying to address with the hunger for the eating itself. The healthy opposite of overeating is obviously not eating as much. So that could be having healthier snacks, portion to troll, going to the refrigerator, opening it but refusing to take anything out. It might be physical activity. I've discovered it's very difficult to eat when I'm on

the treadmill or swimming, particularly swimming. I have a funny picture of me doing the side stroke with chocolate cake. It's very hard to eat while exercising. So there's lots of those concrete techniques that are the healthy opposite of overeating. A little more complex is what's the healthy opposite of the emotional hunger one would have to discover is that lower self esteem, boredom, loneliness. Once you understand of what psychological need that is, than you practice the healthy opposite

of that. Yeah, I think that's so so spot on. You know, my girlfriend has made a lot of progress over the last six or seven years with this, and she said something that all continues to ring out for me related to this, and she said, you know, when I thought that all I wanted was a cupcake, the only solution was a cupcake. But when I realized that there was something else going on emotionally, like let's just say loneliness. Well, there's lots of ways to solve loneliness,

you know. And I think that's kind of what you're getting at here exactly. So in Janine Ross's book title, it's feeding the hungry heart, find what emotionally the food is doing for you, and then directly do the healthy opposite to satisfy that underlying need. Yep. So there's a lot of different you call them catalysts and again you match the catalyst to the stage. But a catalyst that kind of spans multiple stages. One of the ones that does is tracking your progress. So tell me a little

bit about what you mean by tracking your progress. I think it's kind of obvious, but I'd like you to flesh it out a little bit. And then why is that so important? Sure thing? Well, psychologists call all this self monitoring, or, as the fame consultant Peter Drucker likes to say, in the management context, what's measured improves. The simple fact of measuring a behavior focuses our concentration on it, and as a result, we tend to put more time

and thought into it and thus eventually change it. So at the very beginning, we like to collect what's called baseline data, how often are you engaging in the problem behavior or alternatively, the goal behavior, And by doing so you redirect your energy to it. And then as you move through the steps or stages of change, you begin

to notice what causes or precipitates the problem. What are the feelings, the time of day, or the people that lead you to overeat, be more anxious, overspend under exercise that helps you tell your treatment plan so to speak. Later, as the behavior starts improving markedly, tracking progress immediately reinforces you about how well you're doing. Well. Look at this, I'm losing weight, I'm smoking fewer cigarettes, I'm doing less

emotional overeating, my physical exercises zooming. And if you continue to track it once into the later steps or stages, you'll begin to notice, just being human, that we tend to slide a bit, so our activity level decreases, the sense of urgency decreases, and we may even experience a slip or as we psychologists called elapse. And by tracking your behavior, you're going to catch that as well. So what measures improves friends throughout the stages of change, track

the progress. And there's lots of research that demonstrates this eric, including one of my favorite examples the Weight Registry. Of people who have kept off at least fifty pounds for five or more years. Their number one recommendation to anyone changing behavior is to self monitor or track your progress. In this case, track what you're eating and what your exercise habits are exactly. So yep, it's so important, it's so so useful. It's one of the things that I've

just done for years now. You could ask me like, did you meditate on December in you know, two thousand and sixteen. I could say, well, it's gonna take me a few minutes, but I can answer that question, you know, because it's one of the things that I track. I have a friend, prominent psychologist Jerry Corey, has given me

permission to tell this story. He records how much he exercises each week, has it down on an excelf spreadsheet, and whenever I speak to him or we exchange emails, they'll tell me exactly how many hours he were, never more than thirty five or forty hours a week, and exactly how many hours he exercised in the past week. It's what keeps him going. It motivates him, keeps him

right on track. Yep, yep, I'm a big fan. The other thing that I have started doing really over the last year that I found to be interesting is mood tracking. Oh yes, right, Like I've got a little app that comes up on my phone and three or four times a day it just pops up and says, how are

you feeling? And I go in and rate it one to ten, And I thought, I deal with depression also, and one of the things that happens to me with depression when I have a little bout of it is it says you're always this way, and I love being able to go no, no, let's let's take a look like, let's let's look at the data and no, no, clearly I'm not that way. Or it also helps me sort

of see like how am I doing? And since how I'm doing is such a subjective thing in one moment, it's really helpful to see the bigger picture of it. That's been another tracking that I've started to do and then I found to be very helpful. And the same thing with verges to use an addictive or consumptive substance. People say, I deal with it all the time, Doc, you don't know how bad it is. It's ten out of ten when I have them track it. That's almost

never the case. There are people and time and situations in which they experience virtually no urges to use that substance, right exactly. And I think that's so useful, and I really like this. You kind of went through it pretty quickly there, But talking about really understanding what your triggers and consequences are. We encourage self changers and my psychotherapy

patients to become behavioral detectives. What is triggering this? By the way, here's where the twelve step groups are incredibly effective. They think about people, places, and things. So who are the people around that lead to the problem or the urge? Where are the places, what are the things? And we include under things certainly the feelings and thoughts. Behavior always

occurs within this context. There's anticedents or triggers before, then the behavior, then the consequences triggering that anticedent behavior consequence almost always yields a rich array of solutions to the problem. Right yep, yep. I love that time of day triggers, behavior consequences and keeping track of that is so so important.

So one of the things that you shared with me when we've talked is some of the things in the book that most resonate with people are that are most important to them, and one of them is dealing with urges or craving. So let's spend a minute and talk about that. There are proven ways to resist the urge Eric that most people just haven't thought. And in fairness, most lay persons have never received formal training on changing their behavior. So I'm always encouraging colleagues to please teach

not judge. Most of our clients have not been exposed to this, so here's some quick, proven ways to resist that urge. First, take a breather, a few deep breaths and haling, and next having slowing down your physical cravings and your runaway thinking. Secondly, knock it off. Challenge your thinking. When you whine, for example, I need it. You just dispute that nonsense and say you're not a five year

old without free will. Next, say yes, I can remind yourself in no uncertain terms you have resisted successfully many times before. Next walk away. Research shows a brisk walk and removing yourself from the tempting situation certainly reduces urges. We've already talked about doing the healthy opposite countering, talk yourself down, asking that change team to talk you down.

Distraction works for lots of people. Immediately, reward yourself rewards work when you're confronted with the craving, Reward yourself for keeping on on track. And finally we discuss this briefly, Eric, search yourself. You have to understand the emotional reasons for the old behavior in the first place, so remind yourself of the reason for your goal. Remembering to use both sides are both energy sources. That two headed push pull of motivation, push away from the disgusting behavior and pull

away towards the brighter future. There's lots of ways, lots of in the moment methods for battling minor urges and lifelong temptations. That's great. Those are so many really good skills there. Well, John, this has been wonderful. I thank you so much for your time. You and I are going to talk a little longer and we're going to talk about two things. One of them is the very popular slip busters from the book, and then I also want to ask you a little bit about twelve step programs.

Why do you think they work and in what cases do you think they work? Because I'm really fascinated by that in the context of your research. But again, John, thanks so much. We'll have links to the book and everything else in the show notes. But it's been a pleasure talking with you. It's been my pleasure. Thanks so much. Bye. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a donation to the one you Feed podcast. Head over to one you feed dot net. Slash support.

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