How to Lead a Happier Life with Dr. Laurie Santos

or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us.

Our guest on this episode is Dr Laurie Santos, a professor of psychology and head of Silliman College at Yale University. She's also the host of the podcast The Happiness Lab. Dr Santos is an expert on human cognition and the cognitive biases that impede better choices. Her course, Psychology and the Good Life teaches students what the science of psychology says about how to make wiser choices and live a life that's happier and more fulfilling, and that class is

Yale's most popular course in over three hundred years. She's been featured in numerous news outlets including New York Times, NBC Nightly News, The Today Show, and many many more, and is also a winner of numerous awards for both science and teaching from institutions such as Yale and the American Psychological Association. Larie has been featured as one of Popular Sciences Brilliant ten Young Minds and was named Times Leading Campus Celebrity. Hi, Laurie, Welcome to the show. Thanks

so much for having me on. I'm so excited to have you on. You are the creator of a really great podcast called The Happiness Lab, as well as work you do on happiness at Yale and all sorts of things. And we'll get into all that in a minute, but let's start, like we always do, with the parable and the Parable. There's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild, and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside

of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grand schild stops and thinks about it for a second, looks up at their grandparents. Which one wins, and the grandparents says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in

your life and in the work that you do. Yeah, I mean I've heard the parable before that when you see you know, for me, it really shows that happiness and focusing on our mental health takes work, and it takes choices, right, And it reminds us not just that happiness takes work, but that there's these interesting opportunity costs, right, that if you're putting your time and your energy, especially your emotional energy into certain kinds of things, you could

be doing that at an opportunity cost of the kinds of processes you want to win out right. And so the wolf metaphor has always been really powerful of me. It's not enough that you focus on the things that matter, you also have to make sure that you're not also focusing on the things that don't matter. Yeah, and there's a lot in your work that I think we'll get to as we go through that really hits on that parable.

So much of your work, I think orients around an idea of what we think will make us happy is actually not usually the things that will make us happy. If we think something is going to make us happy, that's where we're going to direct all our energy. And to your point, if all your energy is going there, you don't have enough left to put over on the things that do create happiness. If we had infinite energy, this wouldn't be a problem, right, but it is. And

so yeah, that opportunity cost is really important. I want to start by going a slightly different direction because I did not know this about you until I started doing deeper research. But you are the director of the Yale's Canine Cognition Lab, which that is so cool. That is so cool. I'm a huge dog lover. Yeah, the work is relevant in a couple of different ways of feeding wolves. We haven't worked with wolves directly, but we have worked with Australian dingoes. This was my kind of, you know,

day job. Before I got interested in the science of happiness.

I was really interested in this question of what makes humans unique, what makes humans special, And studying canaids is really it's an important way to answer that question, in part because dogs, and dovestigated dogs in particular, grew up alongside humans, right, you know, so the path from becoming a wolf to becoming a canaid that could be around people is one that really shaped these animals to pay attention to us in a particular way and maybe even

shape their cognitive abilities. So canaids are really fantastic comparison point for all the cool and interesting things that humans do if you're interested in questions of uniqueness. But but I sadly don't get to spend as much of my

time doing the canine work these days. So you know, it's just as I was looking at some of your publications after, like the second one that had dogs or you know, canines in the titles, like there's something I'm not understanding about her work here, and so then as I dug a little deeper, I was like, okay, so to that end, you know, if we wanted to translate

that work into the happiness work. Is there anything about the work that you do, or about dog cognition or animal cognition that would point us in the direction of happiness, or any lessons we can sort of even if we're sort of stretching the analogy a little bit, anything from there that you find interesting. Yeah, I mean I think

there are, you know, a couple of things. One is, animals are incredibly good at prioritizing some of the stuff that makes them happy, right, I mean to take you know, for example, presence, right, you know, mindfulness, just being in the present moment, you know. I think dogs are a wonderful example of this. I mean, I think one of the benefits we get from hanging out with dogs, and in fact, they're scientific work to suggest this, is that

you become more mindful when you're around your dog. You're taking your dog for a walk and he's you know, sniffing the ground and looking at the flowers and paying attention to the sounds. It sort of causes you to do the same thing. It gets you back into your normal sensory experience, and so I think animals can be a great guide for helping us do that. I also think that dogs are a really wonderful way to get social connection, especially if you're having a hard time getting

some social connection with humans. You can form that meaningful bond with an animal in a way that gives us so many of the exact same psychological benefits. So the work I was doing with dogs wasn't necessarily on happiness, but they have definitely given me a glimmer into some strategies that work. Yeah, I mean, dogs are one of my great sources of happiness in life, for sure. It's funny anytime if you were to look at my camera role, or you were to look at my gratitude lists, they're

always you know, they're near the very very top. All right, So let's talk a little bit about an idea that you use a lot, which I think is really important, and we talk about it on this program. We talk about in the Spiritual Habits program. You say, a good rule of thumb for all this stuff is little and often.

And I think what I mean by that is, you know, we can really find ways to protect our mental health and boost our well being through the little things that we do if we kind of keep up the habit of doing them often, you know. So I think when we think about the things that are really bringing us down. It's not usually the one off thing that we happen to do with our time. It's the things that we're doing persistently over and over again that again, you can

kind of create this opportunity cost on our happiness. But if you can put in positive habits, even if they're tiny, even if they're baby steps, and you can get yourself to do them more and more, those are the things that are really going to impact your well being, oftentimes more than you expect. You think, Oh, it's this little thing, you know, do a five minute meditation, you know, it's this tiny thing to like make sure, you know, exting the friend and checking in. You know, these things matter

more than we think. Yeah, there's a Tanzanian proverb that I use in the Spiritual Habits course, which is little by little, a little becomes a lot. And I just love that idea and I love how you just pointed to this works for both the good and the bad. Right. You know, if social media doesn't make you feel good, I'm not castigating it across the board. But if you're one of those people and which social media turns into a comparison exercise, and leaves you feeling bad about yourself.

You know, little by little that becomes a lot versus just like you're saying text to friends, little by little, you're nurturing and growing connection. And so I just think that's such an important idea, and we tend to discount it because we think we have to make really big changes. And sometimes a big change can be great and can be helpful and depending on what it is, but for most of us, it's the little changes. You know, how do we work a little more of this indo our day?

And I think, you know, focusing on the little can allow us to do something that also can prove our well being right, which is to make sure we're harnessing self compassion. You know. I think sometimes when we want to make this huge change, like I'm going to be perfectly happy and I'm never going to mess up again, we're often trying to make that big change with a certain sort of attitude, and it's an attitude of perfectionism, like if I screw up, you know the world is over.

And so I think focusing on the little changes means you're giving yourself something you can bite off, something that's actually doable. You're you're not setting yourself up for a failure. You're kind of doing it in a compassionate way. And so I think that's another way that focusing on the little can help us. We're doing it with this mindset of compassion and doability, as opposed to I must be

this perfect robot that gets everything right the first time. Absolutely, And I think there's so much to be said for positive momentum. Right, So when we start doing little things and we're successful, we feel better about ourselves, We feel more confident, we feel like we have more self efficacy versus when we try and do big things and we fail. You know, you do that long enough that eats away your sense of your ability to change. You know, I did a lot of behavior coaching for a while, and

that was such a big thing. Was people would say I'm the kind of person who doesn't finish things, and I'd say, well, you haven't finished things in the past. But I don't know that that's a personality trait, right, But we've got to adjust the way we go after these things. That's exactly right. And I think we forget that the stories we tell ourselves matter a lot, right, you know, I'm a person who doesn't finish things. You know.

That's a story that you can update, Right, That's a story that has some content that may or may not be true that you could challenge, you know, riddled with these cognitive fallacies. And so I think focusing on the small can also help us make sure that those stories are accurate. Right. We're not trying to come up with a magnum opus story that's gonna make sense of everything we've done. We're just talking about you know, did I get up and like do my five minute gratitude meditation

this morning? Right? You know, these tiny things allow us to achieve it, but they allow us to come up with better stories that we can tell ourselves, that are stories that are positive, ones about growth and so on. Yeah, Dr Rick Hanson said something once. He said, our stories about ourselves are at least six months out of date. And I think actually that numbers way underestimated. I think I think our stories about ourselves can be years out of date, you know. And so I like that idea

of just adjusting a little bit. You mentioned gratitude there, and I thought maybe we could turn towards gratitude for a second, because it's one of the skills that you talk about in your happiness course as being a really helpful happiness tool. There's lots of studies about how good gratitude is for us in so many different ways. You know, it's pro social, it tends to make us often be

able to regulate ourselves better, sometimes get more done. I mean, there's a there's a ton of reasons why gratitude is so valuable. So my question to you would be two fold. The first would be what do you think are some of the most useful strategies for making gratitude part of our life? And then the second question is a little bit more complex, but you talk about hedonic adaptation, which is we get used to things, right, you know, I get a new car, and then I get used to

have in the car. It's no longer special anymore. Well, I'm curious whether we can have hedonic adaptation in our gratitude work, because this is what I feel like happens to me as I do it, and it's really valuable until I've done it for a while and now I'm back to the same sort of things, and now all of a sudden, it's kind of used to the gratitude work. So question one would be what are some practices you like? And then question to what would be some ways of

keeping it fresh? Yeah, well, in terms of practices that I think work, I mean part of it is, you know, you've got to find what works for you. Right there are practices that might be fantastic for me that you might find cheesy or you might find onerous. You know, as someone who's an expert on behavior changes, you know the practices is going to work is the one that we can get ourselves to do. Right. Some that I really like are you know, just the simple act of

writing down a few things that you're grateful for. You know, I have a little app that I used to do this. I don't think you need an app. It can if you're a pen and paper person, use pen and paper, but just come it to you know, three to five things you're grateful for every day. Um. And the key, which maybe is going to get to your hedonic adaptation question a little bit, is that ideally those should be different.

It doesn't really work if every day you're like dogs spouse coffee, dog spouse coffee like like, you gotta first have to mix it up a bit, and you second have to make sure you're feeling. It can't be wrote. I mean, the whole point of gratitude is that it's an emotion and you have to kind of turn it on.

But another practice I really love, which for me felt a little bit easier because it meant I was noticing things I was grateful for throughout the day, was a practice that I learned from the author Ross Gay who has this book called The Book of Delights, and his practice is just he tries to notice things that he finds delightful out there in the world. So it's not like, you know, capital g gratitude of this blessing that came to your life. It's just like you notice fun things

out there. Like you know, this morning, as I was walking to get coffee, there was a guy who was like parking near me and he was like blasting full school, like Ozzy Osbourne out there. Went over his car and he had this big dog that was hanging out, and you know, so I looked over in for a second I thought the dog was like jamming along to Ozzy Osbourne, right, and that was like delight. You know. Rosskay would put his finger in there and just said that is a delight, right,

And The reason I like the delight practices. First, it's easier than gratitude, right, you don't have to kind of remember this list and write it down. But the second is that it's it's doing what you want to be doing. In the gratitude practice, which is sort of training your attention to the blessings, to the things that are good in life. You're fighting this bias that we know is one that is built in, which is a negativity bias.

Your brains are set to notice the big tigers out there in the world, the anxiety provoking, scary, sad things. It takes some work to train our brains to shift focus and notice the delightful things. So if a gratitude practice seems onerous or like it's going to be to work, commit to noticing the delights. And I like finding a delight buddy where you can like text the buddy like saw a dog hanging out car playing Ozzy Osbourne, delight you know all caps. That's a idea to get to

your heat. On a adaptation question, you know, I think this is a tough one because there are studies that suggest that we don't hedonically adapt to certain kinds of emotions as easily, and gratitude is one of these that if you're focused on the right stuff, you can continue that feeling long after you expect you don't see the same hedonic adaptation curve for gratitude, but you have to

keep feeling it to get there. And I think the problem with a lot of gratitude practices is we turn them into something that we do wrote It's like brushing our teeth again, you know, it's like you know, spouse dog coffee like every single day, right, and you just stop feeling it. And so one way to do that is, you know, make a rule with yourself that it has

to be something new. You know, it can be my spouse's feet or his smile or you know, my dog's tail or, like my dog the way she drinks the water. You have to commit to finding something novel every single time. And that means you're still in the noticing, right, You're still like allowing the gratitude to do what it needs to do, which is like you've got to feel it.

You've got to think like that is amazing that this universe, of all the people, this dog could be, with all the dogs I could have, I have this dog, you have to take a moment to feel that. But if if you get there, if you allow yourself to feel it, there is evidence suggesting that you won't adapt to it as much. It's still kind of can have its effect, maybe even more so than other emotions, which is one of the many, many cool things about gratitude. If you're

doing it right, you don't hedonically adapt as much. You said a bunch of things there. I'd like to just kind of hit on real quick. I think first, is I love that idea of delight, the word I often use as appreciation, like what do I appreciate today? Like, to your point, it's smaller than something I'm grateful for. It's just a little flash of a moment that there

was something something that was there. And then the other question I have is about feeling it, because this is an interesting one, right, I've talked on this show a lot about my struggles with depression. Depression when it comes on me, what it is primarily is lack of feeling right. Something that you might normally feel just doesn't do it right. The song that normally is like God of Love, that

song is just like it's fine. And so if gratitude is something we need to feel, and yet feelings are difficult to come by, and yet we know that gratitude is something that may help with depression. Any thoughts and working around that, Yeah, I think your experience is of

course really common. I mean one of the classic symptoms of depression is you know, an Hedonia's literally like you're not having hedonic you know moments, these hedonic experiences, and so yeah, I mean I think one way to do that is again to take this idea of baby steps and a little self compassion. Right. You know, if you're going through a terrible episode, yeah, the song that moved

you before isn't going to do so. In the same way, you know, the main thing on your gratitude list, you're not going to feel it, And you know that's a pain that sucks, right, but it's something that you need to accept is not going to last forever. Right. I think the sort of statements that you talk to yourself

with can be really powerful in those moments. But that's one of the reasons that I think a practice of something like a delight practice can be so powerful, is that if you commit to the tiniest thing, like you can start noticing again, and that can kind of break through.

And I do think that these things sort of snowball I mean, this is one of the things we know in depression rights that you know, you're not getting as much of a hedonic burst every time you do something fun, So then you stop doing things that are fun and that you really don't have any hedonic burst, and then you're you know, it's like, so if you can kind of get the snowballing to go very slowly in the

other direction, it can be quite powerful. And and in Ross Guy's book, you know, he talks about how this practice of delight has gotten him through, you know, some really tough times. You know, the book is really honest about issues of racial violence and things like that, and he says, even in the midst of the worst times, you can just notice that one cool thing. It can kind of give you a little, you know, a peak of hope that can help you in a really important way. Yeah.

I think there's a couple of things you're pointing to. Their one is specificity, Right, I can be more specific in what I'm grateful for. You just named it, like the way my dog drinks water, my dog's tail, Right,

It's the specificity. And then I think the second piece in what you're saying also is that I do think by looking for little moments of even if the word delight is too strong, little moments of something that's positive, shows that even something that feels as all encompassing as depression has its moments in which it's waxing and waning. It is not this constant thing. It's not always there in the same level with the same intensity it seems

like it. But these noticing of little delights, as you sort of said short of it, allows you to see through these little holes, you know, like oh yeah, okay, there's something out there. It's not all clouds, it's not all gray. And I think another key is to give yourself permission that those things were supposed to have on

our gratitude journal, like our spouse and our dog. But you know, if you can find the goofy things, It's one of the reasons I love Ross's book is you know, in his big list is like the band l de Barge, like purple things, like you know, like wise purple of colored, such a weird color. I think if you can allow yourself a little bit of the goofiness, that can kind of snap you out of it a little bit too. It doesn't have to be, you know, the most meaningful

thing in your life. You could just be like, yeah, it's pretty good. It's a good thing. It's like slightly above baseline and just get your brain to notice that stuff. Yeah. Another person who does that well as a guy Neo pass Reacha. It's called the Book of Awesome, and then he's got other Books of Awesome. But it's basically that thing. He's been a guest a couple of times, and it's just fun. He approaches it in a fun, small way.

But again, the thing that I notice about his stuff is it's so specific, and I think that's an important thing. Let's change directions because I have to ask you about episode of The Happiness Lab, which is your podcast, and it's about something you've worked on with Dallas Taylor to create the Handbook for Sonic Happiness. Basically, the idea sound

has an enormous impact on happyness and well being. I am a extraordinarily sound sensitive person, so I'm wondering if you can give us a few tips from the Handbook for Sonic Happiness. Yeah, it's funny that you're such a sound sensitive person. I feel like in general that you know might not be a good thing for for a podcast, or that's a fantastic you know, like you can hear

all the tiny things. Yeah, yeah, I mean one of the great things about talking with Dallas was realizing that we're not often intervening on sound to promote our happiness and our mental health. What do I mean by that? You were constantly intervening on our other senses to feel better. You know, if I'm having a bad day, I want to take a warm bubble bath or maybe put on a candle, like I want to watch something on TV. I want to buy flowers. Right, we're hacking vision and

touch and like taste. Right, you know what, I'm having a bad day, I want some ice cream. Right. We do that quite naturally, and many of us have like straightforward go toos of things in those domains that feel good, But we don't often do that as much with sound. Maybe a little bit with music, right, you know, if I'm having a sad day, maybe I want to enhance the sadness and listen to a sad song or listen

to something peppy to get me out of it. But that's pretty limited in the scope of all the sounds we could be engaging with. You know, what Dallas really recommends is making sure that you're as much as you can limiting some of the bad sounds and kind of noticing them. You know, he talks about even ambient sounds in the room, like you know, the hum of a refrigerator that's really annoying, or you know, like just other sounds around you. Sometimes I noticed this too, like I'm

feeling just great, and like what's going on. It's like there's some stupid hum like happening in the building next door that's like really bugging me, right, So kind of finding ways to limit the bad sounds, but really trying to find ways to mindfully notice some of the good sounds, you know, and trying to get beyond music for something

that feels nice. You know, for me, it's often very natural sounds kind of sound amazing, right, Like take a little height or go somewhere naturally, even if it's like a park in your neighborhood and just be quiet. Notice and you know, you and I are having this conversation. You know, I'm in New England when it's right around the beginning of autumn and the leaves are kind of rustling, and sometimes you can hear the acorns fall and things like that. You know, those are true delights for me.

You know, those are delights in the sound domain. But but I'm often not giving myself permission to engage with them in the same way I would totally give myself permission to engage with the taste of an ice cream cone or the warmth of a warm bath. Right, give yourself permission to engage in positive sounds. Yeah, I think the benefit of being a sound sensitive person and a person focused on positivity to some degree, as I've really

learned to seek those out. I had been a on again, off again meditator for a long time, and then someone said something to me that I had never heard of before. I don't think it's uncommon now, but this is ten years ago. As they said, go outside, sit outside, and just meditate on what you hear. Just follow what you're here, and when your mind it gets lost in thought, just ask again what can I hear? And all of a sudden I was like, this is what I have been

trying to get for twenty years from meditation. You know, it just really worked. And then that actually allowed me to settle enough that the other types of meditation became a lot more profound for me. Um, So it really unlocked something for me. So I love to go outside and listen to sounds. But the downside of a sound sensitive person is sort of like you mentioned, if there's

a rattle or a hum or something. I mean, I am so aware of it and what I don't know and I can't decide, And I'd be curious to see you know kind of what your thoughts are and from what you've learned about it is. I sometimes worry that I'm making myself more neurotic around it. Just it's a rattle. Let it go, Eric, But I don't very well you know. The other one is and I think there's an actual name for this, but I don't know what the name is. But it's where the sound of other people eating drives

you nuts. And I don't know whether you guys discussed that part at all. Couple of things there. One is, I think probably a lot of us are getting rattled by the rattle psychologically, but we're not mindful or aware enough to realize it. I know, I'm just like, I'm in a bad mood. I'm going to strike out. I want to say some of me to my husband and I'm like, oh wait, it was the refrigerator. Hu Like, it was like there's a causal arrow from this nasty sound.

So part of being you know, sound sensitive. You might even say sound mindful, right, sound sensitive as you're really affected by about sound mindful, as you're noticing which things are out there. It can just give you some awareness, right, you might be able to do something to shut the rattle off. And even if you can't, you now at least have some awareness. Okay, this is going on, right, you know, I know you talk a lot on the

show about addiction and things like that. You know, it's the same as craving, right, you know, being mindful of the craving and now it's there, it's really present. But now you're aware of it, you can choose to do what you want to do with it. Maybe you're going to allow it, maybe you're gonna non judgmentally really pay

attention to it, you know. And this was one of the things you know that I've seen in sounds that are annoying is sometimes if you can get to recognizing them just as sounds, you're us in the same way that you can recognize a craving is it's just a feeling, and get really curious about it, Like that rattle, you know, what's the frequency the bump bump bump ball. It makes

my chest vibrate and things like that. Like now you're just digging into it and investigating it in a way that kind of causes it to lose its power, right, Like you notice it's not just this valance that's like sucky negative stop stop stop, Like you can sort of see it for what it is, and that can disarm it sometimes too. I like that idea. Actually, I had not thought of investigating it more closely. If it's rhythmic, I can capture the rhythm of it, and then it

sort of disappears. It's the intermittent ones. But to your point, I either try and tell myself don't be annoyed by it, or make it go away. I do one of those two, but I have not that much. Now that you're saying it turned towards it in a curious way. Learn more about it. How often is it, what are its frequencies? What you know? I think that's helpful, all right? What about being driven crazy by the sound of other people eating? Can you fix this problem. Um, I think you can. Yeah,

maybe same technique, get out of the room, are eating. Yeah, it's just funny. I mean it's the same with all affective things, right. You know, if you can really investigate your own preferences, sometimes you start laughing at yourself. Right, You're like, I'm really really annoyed by this guy chewing chips.

You know, Like if if you can kind of get to a meta awareness of what's really upsetting you, then again, through this process of kind of allowing it and investigating it, you can sometimes get some purchase on it to be like, wait, that doesn't make any sense. Again, it doesn't make it perfect, and it does take a lot of work, right, but

you can kind of get to the other side on things. Hi, everyone, I wanted to personally invite you to a workshop that we are offering at the end of October at the Omega Institute, which is in the Hudson Valley in New York,

and it is really beautiful this time of year. It's going to be a great chance to meet some wonderful people, recharge and relax while learning foundational spiritual habits that will allow you to establish simple daily practices that will help you feel more at ease and more fulfilled in your life. You can find details at one you feed dot net slash Omega. I'm really looking forward to meeting many of you.

There another episode that you had recently. It was about, in essence, on one level, working too much or you know, how much is too much to work? But the insight that came out of it that I thought was really interesting was that we all want more time. We have this desire. I used to say, I want to be able to do whatever I want whenever I want right, which is in my case an unqualified disaster when that occurs.

But the point of the episode is that there is a sweet spot for how much discretionary time is helpful, and that even moving small amounts of discretionary time can be very helpful. Back to this a little and often, so can you tell us a little bit more about that one? Yeah? Yeah, So this was work that was looking at kind of how much discretionary time do we need? It was an episode with the psychologist Cassie Holmes, who's fantastic. She's got a great new book out on some of

these topics. And I think we we assume that like infinite time, is good, right, like all the free time possible. But when she finds is that you definitely need some free time, time that you would describe as free that's not scheduled, but it's really not infinite. It's actually just a couple hours a day, you know, maybe even the range of like two to three hours a day. And

I think two things there. One is like when you realize it doesn't have to be infinite, you're like, Okay, this seems much more doable, right, Like I think I can move things around to objectively get that much free time, or it's a little easier than if I was going for infinite free time, for example. But the other thing that she she talks a lot about is that we really need to prioritize that free time, right and think,

look really carefully at what's digging into it. You know, sometimes what's digging into it is work and paying the bills,

and you know, yeah, that's a thing. But sometimes what's digging into it is stuff that's just like feeling our time that we don't need, you know, I know you love parables on the show, you know, she talks about the perhaps apocryphal tale of some professor who was trying to teach his kids, you know, about the power of this, and he says, like, you know, have these ping pong balls? How many ping pong balls can I fit in this class?

People say some number of pink pall balls and he puts them in and he's like, so is the glassful? And people are like, yeah, you know. And then he brings out these little like marbles and he's like, well, I know, actually, can I put some marbles in? And they're like, oh, yeah, you can't use So he fits some marbles and he says, well, now is the glassful? And people like yeah, And then he pulls out the sand and he's like, huh, yeah, I put the sand in.

The reason this is relevant is he says, you know, your time is this glass, and if you start filling it with the sand first, you won't be able to fit the ping pong balls, which are the things you really want to be doing with your life, the things that really fulfill you and build you up. And so I think, you know, with that metaphor, I think we can ask the question like, what's the sand in our lives that fill things up? You know? And what's the

ping pong balls? And sometimes when you do that analysis, you realize, you know, the sand was you know, every you know, free ten minutes I had. I was looking at something stupid on the internet, and the sand was ruminating over and over again when I could have like, you know, popped out and you know, done a quick

workout or something like that. Right, It really allows us to analyze and be more intentional about how we're spending our time and recognize that it's a limited resource that we often don't think of as one perhaps our most important limited resource. You know, money, if you blow it, you might be able to get more money someday. But time, when you blow it, it's gone forever, you know, in

your life, it's not coming back. When we're talking about discretionary time, are we talking about time that we get to choose what we want to do in and we

may fill it up. Is it still discretionary time? For example, if I'm like, all right, well, I want to exercise for an hour and I want to meditate for twenty minutes and I'd like to do this, would we still consider that sort of discretionary time because I don't have to do those things, or would we still say even beyond that sort of thing I need some amount of time that's just do whatever I feel like. Yeah, honestly, I think it kind of depends a little bit on

how you frame it. You know. You use the example of like the time to exercise. There's different ways to frame that, right. You know. You could frame it like I'm done work and I get to do the things that are for me. What's the thing for me, I'm going to exercise when I have this amazing yoga session, right, Or you could frame that exercises like I have to do it. If I don't do my half exercise, I'm failing at my happiness mission and I'm going to like

die of a heart attack. Like there's a sort of half donus shouldness to certain kinds of things we do. And you know, a lot of shouldness obviously comes from work and paying the bills and things, but sometimes we build up that shouldness in our brain for things that aren't a have to write, that are supposed to be a want to but now have somehow turned into a weird should have to you know. And the joke I use with my students is that you don't want to

be shooting all over yourself, you know. But I think we we often should all over ourselves in ways that make even the most leisurely things, even the things we would normally be doing, you know, as a gift to do ourselves. Is this thing we should savor, you know, this delicious ice cream cone of time that we've spent. And it just feels like crappy, like we're just trying to like push our throlves through it, you know, it feels like the most onerous work tasks. I think it's

not exactly defined by a particular thing. It's often defined by our attitude towards that thing. And this is one of the time hacks I think can be quite powerful, right, is that you don't necessarily have to change how you're objectively spending your time to you know, in some ways subjectively think about your time used differently. If you can kind of change your attitude towards how you're spending your time, that might be enough. Yeah, I think that is such

a powerful intervention. Is to get to this, I'm choosing to do X, you know, even do get to you know, get to do this is amazing. Yet well, even something like doing work as a parent can very much feel like I have to you know, I had this realization.

I've I've shared this on the show a number of times when my son was I don't know how old he was, nine or whatever, and I was complaining about having to take him to soccer practice again, and I just went like, no, I don't, like, there's no law that says I have to take my son to soccer practice,

Like I simply don't have to do that. A matter of fact, I could choose not to come home and his mother would have to take care of now I'd have to pay child support, but I could make that choice, And just reframing it that way then caused me to go, Okay, So I am taking into soccer practice? Why am I doing it? And now I'm sort of linking this thing to something I value, you know, and the same thing as you're saying with exercise, like I can turn it into a have to do it, but I don't actually

have to do it. I'm totally in charge of choosing. I'm choosing to do it. Why, okay, because I know it makes me feel better, I know, you know, blah blah blah. So I think reframing things as choices in our lives a gets us out of that feeling of obligation or we have to feeling. It's a trapped feeling for me, right, and then also does get me back in touch with my values what matters to me? Then I can make a choice, Well, maybe that doesn't matter to me that much? Why am I doing that? Yeah?

And I think that's really profound, right in two ways. One is kind of, as you mentioned, getting back to your values. Right, So now you can appreciate this thing, right, you can have some gratitude for it's like allowing you to harness the things you care about. I think it also gets you back to a sense of agency, which just psychologically is powerful. We don't like to be forced,

you know, and helpless in doing things. But I think that choice can remind you that, like it's a choice, and you know, to go back to the metaphor we mentioned, Like you can ask yourself, is this the sand or is this the like you know, big ping pong balls? Right, you can really say you know and like really assess whether or not this is the kind of thing you want to be doing, because sometimes some of the things we think are have twos in life have moved away

from our values. Right there, they're not serving us in the way that they served us before. Right, you mentioned our our theories of ourselves are several years old. In some cases, I think our kind of meta theories of what our values are might be wrong. We really introspect, you can be like I don't have to do this, and in fact, I don't want to do this even in terms of my values. So so it can allow us to engage in behavior changes that really are going

to serve us a little bit better. Yeah. You know, a lot of the stuff in your happiness course talks about, you know, there's some very basic things in there that I often am like, I wish I had recommendations that were more interesting than exercise, good sleep and meditate, Like feels a little bit like eat your vegetables. Right, People pay you and they're like, wait, really, this is the rocket science of you know, the happiness research right now. Yeah.

You know, one thing I like to tell my students is like, yeah, totally common wisdom, but definitely not common practice. Right. Yeah, that's good. One of the reasons I think it's powerful to understand the scientific benefits of these things is I think it sometimes can help us pop over a little bit to behavior change, right, when you really reflect on the actual benefits of something like getting a half hour of cardio in or the actual benefits of getting some

sleep for your mental health. You know, you see, like in my case, my students like they see these graphs of like do you want to be here on your mental health? They're here, you know, this big graph. It's like, oh, like you know, that can sometimes give you the motivation, that kind of kick in the pants to get back in here with some of these things. But yeah, I mean there's stuff our societies have been saying, our cultures have been saying, our grandmothers have been saying, you know,

for hundreds, if not thousands of years. But somehow in the modern world we've got away from actually practicing these things. Yep. So we're talking about this don't shoot on yourself or reflecting on choice, right, which is very valuable. There are still going to be times, you know, with me, I'm like, Okay, I know unequivocally the single best thing I can do for my mental health is exercise, Like it is the

number one intervention for me. I know that I have internalized that, and yet there are days where I'm like, I just don't want to do this. So there's a certain amount of like, yes, I want to have agency and I don't want to do this. There's a certain amount of time where there is a need to sort of push and say, Eric, this is good for you and do something that in the moment I may not

be wanting to do. So how do you balance those two sort of you know, not getting locked into obligation, not making something that's good for us a chore, knowing that sometimes we have to just go through the motion. I mean, if you only have days when you experience this, you're doing well because I have months things like I think, you know, one of the big insights I think that the research shows us is that a lot of this isn't what the actual activities themselves are, but it's how

we talk to ourselves about them. Right. So the shooting brain is really this kind of drill sergeant kind of idea of motivation where you just think, if I just scream it myself and be raped myself for being such you know, idiot that I won't want to go to the gym, then that will motivate me to go to the gym. Right, And that feels like I showed, It feels like it can turn the best thing that you love the most into this thing that feels like an

external obligation. But then you also don't want to, you know, have the pendulum shift too far in the other direction where you go into like indulgent mode where you're like, oh, do whatever, just like be this crazy, heated nous and hurt yourself, right, because that can lead down a bad path too. And so what you're trying to do is to find a happy medium, always hard, of course, but one of the voices to channel I think that helps with that happy medium is a voice of self compassion.

Self compassion in the way that researchers like Kristin neff at U t Austin talk about it, where you're trying to talk to yourself as a close friend would talk to you, right, you know. So let's say, you know, you haven't been to the gym in a while, you're feeling like crap. Your close friend shows up. What are they going to say to you. They're not gonna be like, Eric, you need to get your act together and get to the gym. What a loser like. They're not gonna scream

at you. They're not gonna be like, no, you have tomorrow morning eight am, you gotta go to the gym, like I'm gonna beat you up or something. Right, But they're also not going to be like, no, not a problem that you're never going to the gym, like eat more ice cream, like say on your butt, Like they're gonna be like, Eric, what's going on? What's going on? Why aren't you going to the gym? Right, they might be curious. They're going to be kind, They're going to

try to get to the bottom of it. They're not gonna let you indulge just you know, self compassion is not self indulgence. But they're gonna, you know, try to figure out what's going on. And I think that's sort of the attitude we need to take to ourselves when we're feeling that resistance. One move is to actually get curious about the resistance and say, what's you know going on? And I've done this, I mean I definitely have had this, specifically with exercise a lot. They said it's not days

for me, sometimes it's months. But I find that when I get curious about it, it can help, like what's happening? Why does this feel like an obligation? What have I done? And sometimes you analyze and you realize, like, you know, it's the particular thing I'm compelling myself to do. There are other things that feel like I showed in my life and if I can't harness that time that I was exercising for something else, like there's another thing that

I'm missing that I want to get into. But all of that is it's not necessarily which solution I come up with. It's just the fact that being curious about the resistance can allow you to stop butting heads against either kind of you know, plowing through it like a drill sergeant, which doesn't work, or ignoring it and letting it continue when the resistance is really not serving you. So again, it's this kind of how you talk to yourself and allowing yourself to kind of get curious and

pay attention and investigate what's going on with you. Yeah, I think that's really good. I think another phenomenon I've noticed in myself is particularly with exercise. It's like I look at exercise and I'm like, Okay, my plan is I'm going to do a sixty minute bike ride that day, and I know how much energy a sixty minute bike ride takes. It takes ten units of energy, and I look inside and I'm like, I have got one. This

is not going to happen, right, So you know. The other just sort of simple thing to do is to break it down and go like, okay, kind of get on my bike shoes. That takes one union of energy. I got one union of energy. Good. I ease myself one step at a time into the thing can be another just sort of a simple hack, for lack of a better word, to kind of get over that hump. Because I don't know what it is about exercise. I've asked,

maybe you have a theory on this. I've never gotten a good answer for it, or not a complete answer, which is I have exercise. Let's say I don't know five thousand times in my life. I don't know what the number is. It's a big number now right, I'm not a young man. Every single time I've done it, when I'm done, I'm like that, I'm so glad I did that. That was also going to do that. Ye Never once, not once, have I been like, man, I wish I didn't do that. Right. You would think that

it would just be easy to do it right. It just seems like my brain would learn that's good, do it, and yet it's still sometimes a big effort. I don't know if it just comes down to conservation of energy as a species. I don't know you have any thoughts on that, because it's strange to me. You're good if it's just exercise for you. I mean for me, it's like sit down to journal, do your meditation like your mom.

Like there's so so One hint that we get from the neuroscience is that you'd like to think that, you know, the brain was organized in the following way. It was good at detecting what I really liked, what drove pleasure. It would notice that really well, and then it would have mechanisms that motivate you that say, hey, whenever you feel that you know that little burst of pleasure, do that more often. Turns out the brain doesn't have that

many pleasure centers. They're like really tiny and hard to find. Even as neuroscience researchers early on we're looking for them, like, we don't have any pleasure centers, meaning we don't often notice what feels good, right, we notice things that really hack into those systems. So you know, drugs of addiction like those hack into the system. Great, we notice that those feel good and those are very hooked up to the motivation systems. You know, sweet things, right, you know,

these visceral states we get. But you know, the nice warm feeling I get from doing a nice gesture to somebody, you know, the warmth I get from social connection, the exercise and doorphin high don't notice it as much. However, the brain has lots and lots of neural real estate

devoted to what you might call wanting. So if the pleasure systems are like the liking, the brain has lots of wanting stuff, and so you get these systems that like give you lots of craving to do stuff that you know just happened to be a hack in this

liking system. Again, whether it's drugs of addiction or things like social media or you know, all these like little dopamine hacks, our brain is really ready to go after those, but it has no mechanism to learn about, you know, the big highs, the you know kind of like deeper pleasures in life, and that sucks. Is such a stupid way to do. We probably work for rats, great for them, but like not for us, you know, So how do you kind of combine these systems for wanting and liking better.

You know, all the forms of liking get them to talk to your wanting better. Sadly, there's not an obvious way, but there are hints that one way you can do it is to kind of ramp up your intentional noticing of the rewards you get. So my colleague Eddy Cober,

who's a neuroscientist at Yale. She she's really interested in mindfulness approaches to addiction and things like that, you know, claims that you can use the same sort of approaches to notice the good things, just as you can would say, a craving for a cigarette or something, notice like, actually, when I'm craving is kind of gross, you know, like really pay tension to how this makes you feel, which is not that good. You can do the reverse for

something like exercise. And so this is something she practices all the time. She's like the annoying friend that always wants to do like the hard yogo or the run or the like. You know, she never has the thing that we were just describing, but it's in part because

she's forced herself at the end of it. In that moment you talk about your like this feels great to sit there and meditate on it, Like, oh, my chest feels lighter, I feel really good, right, Like she's kind of giving her brain sometime to be like wait, like the reward areas that are kind of slow unless it's like a straight up dopamine hit. They can kind of notice this stuff. And you know, does that perfectly lock

up your wanting and liking systems? No, but I think it can kind of help this sort of mindfulness practice of noticing their rewarding parts, just in the same way you might notice that the negative things that are not serving you. When you sort of notice those consequences and really attend to how they feel, they can kind of

get into that circuit a bit more too. That's a really interesting perspective the liking and one in systems, and that a lot of the things that these pleasures were describing that come from wholesome activity there are a subtler thing, and so savoring them is really importan. It's just so interesting having been somebody who had drugs of addiction right as a heroin addict, it amazes me looking back on the amount of pleasure I was getting at the end

was so small. Compared to the price I was paying, you know, And I've heard people describe some theories of addiction people have is that there's learning disorder associated with it, and that your brain is just not updating its prior so to speak, right it it's just it's stuck on the heroin good signal, even though heroin is clearly not any longer good. My brain is like, it doesn't get it, you know. And so I think that these things are

really tricky, that liking and wanting. I think it's really interesting that the brain has a lot of real estate devoted to wanting. M Yeah, and in that the wanting

sticks really strongly to certain things, right, you know. Again, drugs of abuse a lot of times are hacking your do commune system, as does the intermitt and reward of your Instagram feed, you know, as does the like really central pleasures like sugar and you know, lounging around and things that that wanting system has nothing to stick on to for these bigger pleasures, and it doesn't update well, you know, As you mentioned, I think one of the

said things that you know, if you're really addicted to a particular drug, is that you're habituated to it, you're definitely not getting not only at the consequences super high, but you're also probably not getting the same pleasure that you're getting in the beginning because your brain is kind of used to it. But yet still the wanting systems.

Like one one, if I could go back in evolutionary time and like tweak one thing about the rain, it would probably be to put more pleasure zones for the bigger you know, more meaningful pleasures, and it would be to hook the wanting systems up a little bit better to those. But sadly I did not get consulted on

how brains should be designed so well. So do you think, though that this is just pure conjecture that if we as a species managed to not exterminate ourselves in the next several thousand years, that will change because to your point, for rats, it's a very simple system. Right, They don't have meaningful pleasures in the same way that we do.

Right do you think that we might evolve to be a little wiser about these things and to shake off some of this evolutionary baggage one being like that, maybe we would realize, like sugar and fat are not always good. Do you think that humans will evolve. And again this is just conjecture, but I'm curious what you think. Yeah, yeah, no, totally scientifically speaking, I think these selection pressures have to

be pressured to change things around in the brain. You know, if if sugar and fat were killing us, you know, then we might over time develop adaptations not to like it. And that's kind of true, but but not so quickly, you know, like real evolutionary time likes evolution always moves towards directions of adaptation, but sometimes is it really slowly, right, you know, so not in our lifetime and not in

a long time for the human species. That said, I think, you know, this is where cognitive hacks can come in, right, you know, if we can get good at noticing, mindfully paying attention to or in rewards, you know, that really seems to be a hack on this system. It takes a tremendous amount of work. I mean, this is like, you know, we're talking like Buddhist meditation levels of commitment to this stuff. But there's a sense in which you're kind of hacking these things. And this is one of

the things I love about. You know, recent neuroscience work that looks at people who engage in these ancient spiritual practices, is that they are literally hacking their brain. You know, if you look at a long term meditator, they just have less neural real estate devoted to mind wandering. You know, if you look at a monk who's done you know, many many hours of compassionate meditation, their brains just go

more quickly to engaging with compassion to other people. If you look at drug addicts who've used mindfulness practices to overcome craving, when you look at you know, their brain when they're in a craving state, it looks different than you know, are recovering addict who might not have used these mindfulness practices. And so there are hints that we can start hacking these systems through work and so on.

That's not as easy as like, you know, meteor hits godly people with certain wanting like existence stick around be way easier, you know, though maybe more tragic. But but the good news is that with effort and intention, there are some hacks that can help this stuff. Yeah, I think we can change this wiring extensively, my own life just being a testament to that. I've shared this story

several times recently on the show. So sorry listeners if it's getting boring, But I think it's an important one, which is my mom broke her hip and I was picking up all her prescriptions. I was carrying oxycotton back and forth from my mom's house. The amazing thing is, not only did I not want it, I didn't even think about it. It was a month or two into it that I was like, that's incredible. But I would have robbed somebody at gunpoint for that once upon a time,

you know. I mean, I think that just speaks to change is really possible if we just keep doing these things. Now. I've got a lot of years away from heroin, so it doesn't happen overnight, but it is possible. Yeah, And I think that's important to remember. You know. It gets back to something we were talking about before, that little and often that often is the key, I think in your case, right like you, you have to fight that craving or allow it or investigate it a lot to

get to the point that you're at. But it does get easier over time, for sure. We've been talking a fair amount about behavior change here, and there's lots of techniques and tools for behavior change, but one of them. Is that the support of other people or a term I've seen you use as cultural or religious structures. You talk about how it seems kind of very clear that like your cross fit gym or your church or these things can help make behavior change occur, and you then

go on to say, well, what's driving it? Is that the beliefs of the organization of the thing, or is it simply the commitment to it? And I just would love to hear you kind of talk through that again because I think it's really interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, so you know this better than anyone in your listeners your podcast, if they've been listening to them, know this

better than anyone. Behavior change is a hard, hard, hard hard, right, So a hacks that we can figure out to help us can be huge, And I think one of the hacks that we forget about. We love this sort of Protestant work ethic idea that like I'll just power through it, you know, me, me, me, this individual changing my behavior against the world. But one thing we find is that behavior change often seems a lot easier when you have environments and structures around you that are kind of consistent

with that change. You know, what do I mean, like, if you want to exercise, that's much easier if all your friends exercise, right Like, that's much easier. If you have like you know this like padded out home gym, that's amazing, right Like, that's much easier. If you just happen to live in a place where there you know, there's no cars, you gotta walk all the time, You're just going to get that in more naturally. So the

environments can really help us. And sometimes those environments are physical structures, you know, like lots of walking paths and you know, an elliptical machine in your apartment. But sometimes those structures are really like cognitive structures, their belief systems, right, you know, they're about the people around me value this, Right the people around me are committed to this. And I think both of those kinds of things can really work their magic. Those are both kinds of structures that

seem to really help us. But it's often not the kind of beliefs and values we think, you know. So one of the big findings I talked about in my class is that overall, religious individuals tend to be happier. People who have a belief and afterlife belief in God and so on, And so you could say like, well, maybe it's their their personal beliefs, right, like they have this belief and afterlife that gives them meaning and so on.

Turns out not so much. It turns out if you factor certain things out, a belief in, you know, a god or something like that doesn't actually matter. What what seems to matter a lot more is the practices you engage in. Religious individuals go to services, so they engage in social connections. Religious individuals often are part of organizations that engage in charity, so they do nice things for each other. They pray, and so they get a chance to be mindful and take some time where they're present.

They often engage in practices related to things like gratitude and other pro social emotions. You know, they're just like physically around other people all the time because they're engaging with these other folk folks. And so we think structures have to be about our own personal beliefs and like what we believe and what we value, but sometimes the environments around us can be shaping our behavior in ways

that are so much easier. In a recent episode of my podcast where I interview Um, the inventor of these so called blue zones. Dan Buttner, he's an author who studies places around the world that tend to have these positive practices, either for like physical health, like places that induce longevity where people live healthily for a really long time, or places that induce happiness. And he's fond of saying that, like, any attempt to individually change your behavior without your environment

supporting you is doomed to failure. Like, you know, you could do all these different hacks and download apps and get coaches and whatever, but like if you just moved to a place that was happier or moved to a place where you exercise more, that would impact your behavior so much more. You know, he's being a little harsh.

We know that with work you can change your behavior, but it's definitely true that if you can find some environmental support that helps enormously, it makes such a huge difference. I mean, I got sober in twelve step communities, and you know, I've had friends of mine who were former heroin attics. It was harder to quit smoking than stop doing heroin. And there's a variety of reasons for that, but one of them I think is simply when we

went to get off Heroin. We were embedded in a community that was focused on that, and when we stopped smoking, primarily most people just simply go all right, I'm gonna stop smoking, and they do it entirely on their own, you know. I think it makes such a difference. And I think this idea between beliefs and practices, I've often heard people describe Judaism as a religion that's less about

belief and more about practices. You know. I often try and tweez apart what in twelve step programs worked, What was it that was actually working there? And you know, it's interesting to think about. But I do think that the community aspect of it, that piece of it is really really important. In twelve step programs to talk about unity, service and recovery, and I think it's really interesting the un into your the people. The service is doing something

that cares about other people. And then the recovery was some method of personal internal transformation. I think that can just be applied to us generally as humans. You know, those three things are really helpful orienting points totally. And I also think this idea of you know, giving up control,

you know, which which can be complicated. I think it has certain relig just overtones and so on, but you know, ultimately it's really accepting your common humanity, you know, which is something that people who do work on self compassion talk about. Right. It's like, I'm not going to be perfect.

I'm just going to be human. I'm going to be tempted, right, you know, like I have to kind of come to terms with the fact that I'm not the one, you know, who's in control all the time, and that humility can often ground us in a whole host of attitudes and ways of talking to ourselves that allow us to be a little bit more self compassionate. Right, Like, you know, I'm not going to be perfect. Maybe let's not put myself in this situation. It's going to be really hard.

I'm not superman, right, Like I need to ask for help, right. You know. All of these are practices where you're kind of compassionately dealing with yourself, but those are practices that also make behavior change much easier. I'd like to turn now towards loneliness. There's a lot of it out there,

and it's not such an easy thing to solve. I was talking with someone who is lonely about this and this is a person who's had lots of loss in their life, so everything that they sort of relied on is just kind of gone, and they're sharing how you know, It's one thing when you've got a spouse to go out and find some additional community by joining a club, but that when you have none of those foundations, it's very,

very difficult. So I'm wondering what might you say to someone who's in that position, who's you know, really isolated and becoming unisolated feels like a tremendous amount of work and is very discouraged by it. Yeah, I think first that could recognize that you're not alone, like a lot of people relate, right, Like, loneliness is skyrocketing even if

you don't have people talking to you about it. I mean, you know, even the Surgeon General of the United States, Vigmurthy, has been focusing on loneliness in part because he thinks is a public health crisis, a public health crisis because of how dangerous it is, but also a public health crisis because of how common it is. Right, And so I think that step number one is, like, you know,

you're not a loser. There's not something wrong with you like this is something a lot of people are going through. But that also comes with, you know, something that's related, which is that if you reach out in a baby step way, you'll often be surprised about how many people

will follow up. I think one of our fears of loneliness is or one of our worries when we're feeling lonely about doing something about it, because we're kind of simulating how much work it's going to take and how much success we're going to get, right, or something like, oh, it's gonna be such a pain to like call somebody or go to this club or whatever, and we're stimulating you know, if I do reach out, people aren't going to like me, right, And scientists have looked at this

and there's evidence that both of those intuitions are wrong. Right. Our predictions about how much of a pain in the butt, how stressful, how you know, annoying, how maybe awkward it's

going to be to reach out, they're all wrong. Like our brain is telling us, oh, don't do that, it's going to be a pain, not going to be as much of a pain as you think, right, And our brain is also telling us stuff about how successful it's going to be, and we there's so much evidence that we miss predict how many people are going to like us. We mispredict how much people will appreciate our attempt at reaching out, especially if we haven't reached out in a

long time. And I think recognizing that those biases are biases, that our intuitions are wrong, can be really helpful when you're making the decision to try to overcome your loneliness because you're like us, feels like it's gonna be a lot of work. You can be like, Nope, science says it's not. Let me just try it, right, Let me just try it and take a baby step towards it, and then often if you're paying attention, you'll get some

positive reinforcement back. Right, you think it's gonna be so onerous to go to this club, especially I don't have a spouse, nobody to talk to you. But then when

you try it, it actually works. The key though, I think, you know, especially with the science, is that you kind of have to try it the right way, and the right way is really making sure that you're doing that first step to reach out, you know, including when you go to a place you know, so you know, I've seen friends who say, you know, um, you know, lonely, like maybe I shall I'll go to cross fit or you know, I'll go to a book club or I'll

go to this thing. But then they get to the book club and they like, you know, are on their phone, checking their email, or they're like playing with the cat you know at the book club, right like, they're not actually talking to people, and what does that do? You know? It's reinforces the cycle where people think, well, you're not interested in them, so they're not going to try to talk to you. And so I think we need to recognize that it's not just putting ourselves in this situation,

but it's having our own openness. Often solutions to loneliness involved not like someone reaching out to us, but us reaching out to other people, us trying to solve other people's loneliness, us feeling like, you know, we're the ones We're going to talk to somebody so they feel better. That's what kind of opens things up. That's a really interesting perspective and actually I think my own experience would bear that out in certain cases. One on one, I

pretty fine with people. Put me in a room full of people that I don't know, and I hate it. You know, if I could have three glasses of whiskey, I would like it a whole lot more. But but I don't. And so what I've found though, in some of those situations is exactly what you just said is the strategy for me sometimes is look around and see who looks lonely and go approach that person as a starting point. It's funny when you said that, like, you know, you go to the event and you're on your phone

or you're playing with the other people's cat. You know, I am totally that way put me in a new social situation. And what I've learned about myself is I may not even be able that first couple of times to overcome it, like it just may be too strong. But if I keep going, I can find something. And I've seen some research talking about you know, it takes a while to build a connection or a friendship. And the thing that I've done so many times in my life is show up someplace once and be like, now,

not my people, because nothing happened right. And I just know for myself that the first time I show up, my defense this is they're just they're unconscious and they're high enough that I'm either going to think I don't like these people or they don't like me. One of those two things is going to be going on in my brain, and I just kind of have to ignore it and go We'll try again, you know, try a few times. If this seems like it's a place that might offer the kind of community I want, I may

have to venture into the space multiple times. And then sooner or later, I find like, all of a sudden, my walls start dropping. And so that's a way of doing it, even if you can't quite overcome you know what you're saying, Like the first time I'm there, all I can do is play with a cat because I feel so shy. I'd think yourusly just in there. You can also look at it from the other people's perspective, right, like why didn't they connect with me? It might not

be because you know you're a loser and unconnectible. It might be you were playing with that cat the whole, you know. So it's like I think, if you if you frame it more like I'm going to help the loneliest person at the party, that's super helpful. I mean

I've seen this on one on one. You know, if you know, if you're in feeling anxious socially in US and a party is not the right scene, fine, look through your phone or your email list and say, I'm gonna you know, text or email the person in this list that I think might be the loneliness and I'm just going to check in and you'd be surprised how much good work that does. This is my final question to what extent does virtual connection? Can it be a

replacement for in person connection? Is it is good? Is good? I'm asking the wrong question. It's a good question, and the answer is sort of. It depends on how you do it right. You know, you and I are talking virtually over our favorite podcast app, and it feels pretty good, like we're having this nice connection. I see you, And that's in part because it's in real time. Right, we're talking using the same things as primates that we were built a revolution to do. Right, we're talking in real

time with one another. I think that virtual connection works less well if you're not doing in real time, like you know, a text thread where you're texting a friend. It just kind of doesn't drive with the way our psychology is used to do. But the cool thing is we have lots of tools now that allow us to do that, from like FaceTime and zoom where you and

see each other, or just like the old school phone. Right, we we have these you know, sportphones that are our cameras and our alarm clocks and all these things, and we forget like you could just use it as a phone, and we know the phone, you know, it's pretty good for social connection. It was like really all we had for a very long time. So yeah, yeah, And I think the thing that sometimes people will do, and I know I've been guilty of this, is like, well, in

person connections, what's really important? So I won't do zoom thinking it's somehow inferior, but it's still way, way, way better than nothing. And I think this for me was, you know, a gift of the pandemic, you know I could talk about because silver linings and blessings and really awful situations. Was that, you know, I think it got a lot of us to, you know, do these zoom hangouts with the friends or Zoom movie or game nights

and zoom yoga classes. I was doing zoom yoga with friends and it made me realize, like, wait, this is pretty good. You know, there are people that live far away that I won't see in person for a while, but connecting with them over zoom was great. And some of those you know zoom things I was doing, I'm

still doing with those friends. Michael. My college roommates are scattered all across the country and we still do these like once a month kind of you know spawn night hangouts over zoom because we realize like it's better to see them that way than not at all. So I think, you know, listen to those lessons. They can be powerful. Well, Laurie, thank you so much for coming on. It has been such an enjoyable conversation and I'm so grateful that you had time to join us today. Thanks so much for

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