How to Find Wellness in Indigenous Wisdom with Chelsea Luger & Thosh Collins

don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us.

Our guest on this episode is Chelsea Luger and Thosh Collins. Chelsea is a writer and wellness advocate originally from North Dakota. She's an enrolled member of the Turtle Mountain Band of Chippewa and descendant of the Standing Rock Sioux tribe. She has an undergraduate degree from Dartmouth College concentrating on comparative histories of global Indigenous cultures, and later earned an MS

and Digital Media at Columbia University. She's the co founder of Well for Culture, and her writing has appeared in The Atlantic, Huffington's Post, Yes Magazine, and others. Thosh is a photographer, board member for the Native Wellness Institute and co founder of Well for Culture. He is an acmel Odom Seneca cayuga O sage born and raised in the Salt River Reservation. He serves on the Salt Pima Maricopa

Landboard and is politically and culturally active within that community. Today, Eric Chelsea and Thosh discussed their book, The Seven Circles Indigenous Teachings for Living Well. Hi, Thought and Chelsea, Welcome to the show. Hi, thank you so much for having us. Hello, thanks for having us. Yeah, it's a pleasure to have you guys on. We are going to be discussing your book, which is called The Seven Circles Indigenous Teachings for Living Well.

But before we do that, let's start with the parable. Like we always do. There's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and thinks about it for a second and looks up at their grandparents as well. Which one wins,

and the grandparents says, the one you feed. So I'd like to are off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. I like that question. I like that story, and I always reflect on a lot of original Indigenous teachings and a lot of our creation stories across various indigenous nations have these stories about how there's always been two forces and there's been this struggle for for balance and harmony between two forces that is told in a

number of different stories. But that's the general concept to that, and listening to the creation stories where I come from, they talk of these things here, and it even comes down to what's happening inside of our own selves, our own mental, spiritual, physical, emotional being. And what that means to me is that there is these these forces at

work constantly and it just is. And I know as human beings, and with our work, we try to pave a way for things such as love and kindness and compassion to be demonstrated in the world and in our coming generations. We work hard to do that, but we also understand that there's all ways forces opposite of that at work, and that's the way of the world, and there's nothing that is human beings. We don't have the power to change that. And it's expressed even in the

natural world. You know, when you go out to the world and you see you know, the animal nations, you know how treacherous they can be, or catastrophic events in our world. It's it's represented in a number of different aspects of our world and it just is. And I think that's something that we in our work we accept that.

We try to teach seven circles as a life of living well, but we also understand there's always going to be struggle in our world because it is the way it is, that the natural way of this and is human beings. We have to accept that. So I have those struggles on a daily basis to in my healing journey, and I have to choose to feed the wolf there that is trying to foster wellness and kindness and love and compassion in my own life, my family and community.

So that's what that means to me. Thank you. I have a question, which is the origin of this parable? You know, originally I heard it and it started with a Cherokee grandfather said. So, I've heard very differing things about whether this is actually a Native American parable story or not, and so I just don't attribute it anywhere. But I'm kind of curious. Do you guys have a sense of its origin? Does it feel like it's from your culture or does it feel like it's not. I guess,

I guess I'm asking you to speculate. But yeah, that's a good question, and I think you're wise to take the origin story of it with a sense that it

could be potentially false. Neither of us are Cherokee or from that nation, so I can't say for sure, but I would imagine that if it were a Cherokee proverb or story, there's probably a lot more to it than that small piece of it that is commonly shared and I have heard it as well before, so I can't say for sure, but I would say that if it is from the Cherokee Nation, they're more than likely is quite a bit even more context that we don't have access to in this moment, got it, And we'll get

to this probably at some point in the conversation, you know, cultural appropriation, right. I don't want to be taking a story and not giving proper attribution. But I've had Cherokee people both say yes and no, and I'm like, well, I don't know then, Okay, so you know, it's a useful story. We'll kind of leave it there it is, and it's totally fine to say, you know, exactly what you said, this has been attributed to the Chaich nation, but it might not be either, So yeah, we just

have to wonder. I think what also is interesting though, is that again, like across many different cultures of the world, there is the concept of these two forces at work. And so I think that's such a great story and a great parable, you know, to pose to people and ask what that means to them, because I think we can all agree that that's something that's pretty commonly shared

across the world. Yeah, there's certainly it's not biblical, right, but in a Christian tradition they'll talk about a devil in an angel on each shoulder, right whispering different things, do you you know? And certainly in a lot of Eastern traditions there's the yin and the yang, and there's the you know, there's just the pull of opposites, seems

to be in all wisdom traditions. So what I'd like to do next is start with something you guys say really early in the book, can you say together around the indigenous world from I don't know how to say this word aotario out there at some body word for New Zealand, Okay to Arizona to Alaska, there is one common practice that is shared by nearly all Native people.

We begin with gratitude. Chelsea. You want to say we're about that absolutely, well, I'll just express like, we're so grateful to be here in this interview, to be interacting with you, getting to know you as as a human being. And then also that you came across our work and happened to find it inspiring enough to bring us in to connect with you and with your audience. And truly that's how we've been taught in in a way conditioned to approach life, and that is you know, indigenous culture

is very diverse. There's thousands of indigenous nations and we have many different teaching different languages. Were so diverse, but one thing that you find in common between almost every nation is this attention to gratitude and this very sincere commitment to whatever we're starting out in our day, we need to start it in a good way. We need to start by giving thanks and by acknowledging the gift of simply being here or the abilities that we have

that allow us to be here having this conversation. When we do that, we avoid taking things for granted, and then we avoid slipping into a negative mindset. So again, you know that negativity, like we talked about with the parable, it will come into play. Those negative thoughts or actions will inevitably be present and will rise because we're human and we can't help that, and we live in a

world of balance, so those will come into play. But when we feed that wolf with things like gratitude, with things like not taking life for granted, that's one of the ways that we can consistently be actively on our wellness journey actively healing and actively countering those negative forces.

That's beautiful. You said something there, Chelsea that really struck me, and you said, we've been conditioned to be this way, And I think that's really powerful to realize that if you consistently repeat the process of being grateful, it starts to become a default condition. And that's one of the things that we talk about on the show a lot is we are very conditioned beings, but that conditioning can change, but it's little and often it's lots of repetition. So

that was more a statement than a question. Might following question would be do you guys find times where it is hard to be grateful or do you find times where you do take things for granted? You're like, well, I know I should feel grateful for this house over

my head, but I just don't. Absolutely, yeah, absolutely, you know we have those times too, and I think that especially as parents with two small children, and we're constantly busy, and we're constantly in the home cleaning and doing dishes, and you know where it feels like it's never ending, and then we sometimes we get swept up in the local stuff, the small things around us, and we are taught also to that those are the times that we're supposed to reset, to sit down and to think about

what we are grateful for and to remember that, and that changes our our behavior. And like we talked about in the book, this concept that in English language that talk about being gratitude, that those are concepts that you know, have been on our nation's for you know, generations, and we have many different types of ceremonies, not just on a certain you know, annual basis, but on a daily basis,

that we're supposed to have those on our mind. There and then this certainly comes from people, you know who we're trying to thrive in these harsh climates and trying to survive and keep up with you know, the hunting of the fishing or planting seeds and not knowing if there was going to be an abundant harvest of planting and foraging, and people just had a different sense of what mattered, and they had a different sense of the

elements in our world that contribute to their life today. Obviously, you know, there's many things that are offered in this age of plenty and convenience that sometimes we forget about how much things have to happen in order for us to just sit in our homes, in the comfort of our homes, and to get from a to b in a safe manner. You know, sometimes we get caught up and wrapped up in that. And that's why for us too,

we try to implement daily practices. And one of the things that I usually do in the morning, and it's like split seconds when I'm first waking up is like I always take like a breath too, is I'm getting out of bed, and you know, I probably could pause a little bit longer, but when I'm waking up, I really breathe, and I try not to just lay in

bed so much. I take a breath and I sit up, and even if I'm like back is tight and I'm sore from the other day, or you know, I don't feel a whole lot of energy at the moment, like I still in my mind, like there's like a split second of well, I'm glad, I'm living, I'm glad I'm breathing. And then sometimes when I get some coffee and me, then I'll sit there a little bit longer in the morning. And if I don't meditate, I at least sit there and I'm visualizing the day, and I'm giving kind of

things for things. I'm trying to like reset before the day starts. I'm trying to not focus on the struggles of the day or not focusing on something that I know is going to be a challenge. I'm just trying to focus on what we have that's good health, family, opportunity, um roof over ahead and just trying to reset and

trying to stay at that throughout the day. And it does get you challenging, you know, we get we are we are, you know, in a stressful times and it can be challenging for sure, but we always try to reel it back and we do little things in our household with our daughters, you know, on a weekly basis, to try to reset ourselves into that mind frame. How are your daughters right now? One and a half and four and a half? Okay, you are in the thick of it, Yeah, yeah, I have a twenty is it possible?

Four year old son? Wow? It seems unbelievable, But from what we're here, we're going to get there in the blink of an eye. So it's such a cliche and yet it's so true. What's that phrase? The days are long, but the years are short, right, you know, with a one and a half year old, sometimes you're like, this day is never going to end. But the next thing

you know, you're taking him to college. Yeah. I saw something online the other day that said, there's nothing I love more than my one year old, And there's also nothing I look forward more than seven thirty pm when when they go to sleep, And I'm like, oh my gosh, it's so true. I love bedtime totally. Yeah. It's such beautiful and rewarding and wonderful work and it's exhausting. It is, yes,

like all good things in life. And that's why for the listeners out there, one of the things that will be a consistent theme that you'll find in our book is this concept of accepting the challenges, accepting that there will be negative, That we're not going to just arrive at this place of perfection and now we're healed and we're good and we're floating. That doesn't happen because we're human.

We live in a world where you have challenges, you have hardship, you have stuff coming at you all the time, and so wellness isn't about being perfect or arriving at

a perfect state. It's about accepting these and recognizing the ability to be grateful when things are going a little bit smoother, and recognizing that we are human and we can always return to balance, and being balance requires being out of balance, and it's just this constant returning to Yeah, you talk about wellness a lot in the book, and you do say that for you guys, it's not a perfect state of being. It's a state of preparedness for

the inevitable hardships in life. It's a toolkit for steadiness. And there's a story in the book I'm wondering if you would share with us, which is of a dust storm, and I believe it was one of your parents or grandparents. So would you guys like to share that story because I think it's really well told in the book. Thank you. I'm glad you like that story. So we sort of use it as a metaphor, and it's a true story. It's quite simple. We were just, you know, out and

about as a family. We were swimming at the river one morning and then we didn't want to quite go home. The kids were sleeping in the car, and we pulled up to Thosh's dad's house on the reservation, and he came out and chit chat with us, you know, leans against the truck and on the passenger side, and he's telling us about his day. And see, I grew up

in north the Coda. I'm relatively new to Arizona, which is where Thosh and his nation are from, and so I'm not familiar with dust storms, and i haven't seen many of them. And it was just out of nowhere to me, bright sunny day and then suddenly boom, it's almost like a tornado and you see it coming, you know, you have a few seconds to prepare, and it's coming toward us fast, and I'm kind of panicking. I'm like, oh my gosh, what's happening here? And Tony's like, okay,

we're fine. Just roll up the window. Gosh, goes Dad, do you want to hop in? He's like, no, I'm good. So thought rolls up the window and the dust and Tony pulls his a bucket hat over his head and just kind of leans into the car. But he's still standing outside and we just get peppered. The car surrounded. It's almost black, peppered with twigs and rocks and everything that the wind is, you know, whirling around us, and then it passes. The kids remain sleeping the whole time.

Tony's laughing. We roll the window back down, you know, it hardly bothers him. And I just expressed that feeling of in my mind so grateful that we were able to shield our daughters from the storm. But then I looked at Tony, I observed his reaction, and I thought, well, even more than that, I hope that at some point they become resilient and able to handle something like a storm with the same amount of humor and grace and

just you know, accepting these things happen in life. So to me, that dust storm was really just a metaphorical teaching that really just snapped into play in my mind in that moment as a parent, and I was just like, Wow, I want my daughters not to grow up shielded from everything, but to grow up being able to handle things and to have a certain amount of resilience and hardiness to them, right, because the storms of life will come, you know, sooner

or later they will come. I'm not of those people who believes like we need to make things hard for our kids, because I believe life will just give it to them. But yeah, not shielding them, teaching them to deal with it on their own. And I think that's a beautiful teaching that Fosha's dad was able to show, you, guys, absolutely, And of course the further context of that is already having observed my father in law get through so much on a daily basis that he deals with in the

same manner that he dealt with that storm. I mean truly hardships, you know, deaths, and community issues and political issues and all kinds of stuff that comes our way, and a lot of stories that I've heard of things that he has faced in his own life and just continuing to get through them and to continue to try

to be there for others as well. There's an idea in your work, and it ties to this a little bit, which is you say you're moving beyond the question of what happened to you and further asking what is right with you? What are your gifts? What are the beneficial, beautiful and healing aspects of your life that you've inherited.

And I think that's great because we do have to face our trauma, we do have to face the things that have happened, but that's not all that it's there, and I love the orientation to say, yes, that's there and thoughts you want to come in on that. Yeah, you know, that's something that a lot of our really proactive thinking elder people always share. I've heard a lot and they've always encouraged us to We'll focus on our strength, They'll say, many times, let's not even talk about the

trauma in this instance. Let's talk about our strengths. Let's talk about what we have been able to pass down over the generations and those tools, and let's talk about how are we going to apply these teachings in these practices today. Are life ways such as ceremony or practices around acquiring food, and our teachings that we follow to hold ourselves accountable to treat relatives and all living beings

in a good way. Let's let's let's focus straight on those, and let's let's find out how are we going to bring those to the community, to the children, and how can we demonstrate those for the world. With that approach, your understanding that there is trauma and there is grief, there is a lot of things in the world that need fixing. But by focusing and being proactive on the solution then we are adopting strength based thinking, solution based thinking.

We're shooting beyond just let's do this to mitigate symptoms. Instead, we're shooting beyond that. And the aim is to thrive in a spiritual, physical, mental emotional sense, to thrive in our indigenous sovereignty, to thrive in our economies are enterprises and indigenous communities. And I think that that's really something that we have to focus on collectively as all people. It's yes, it doesn't mean that you are ignoring the

injustices that certain populations have endured. You're acknowledging all of those. But with the solution usitions here, we're shooting beyond that to heal and to cure. So much we're healing and curing things such as diabetes, depression, conditions like anxiety in the path of a striving for attaining thriving spiritual, physical, mental emotional wellness, thriving in our own life, family and community.

So I think that's really what we try to talk about in there, and to be from that strength based, healing centered approach. You talk about how from the outside the narrative around indigenous culture is how broken it is, right and those of us who are more social justice oriented recognize the grave harm that has been done. But you talk about the only seeing that doesn't paint the full picture of who you are, and that you don't want that to be the only narrative that people see

about Indigenous cultures. Yes, we want to recognize the harm done, but we also you want us to be recognizing the incredible resilience and beauty of your culture and traditions. Would that be an accurate way to say it, Yes, that's very accurate. We always say that you know our hardship and our trauma that we have faced indeed is a piece of our story, but it's not our full story.

And just like any other human being or person or group who you encounter, until you can see them in all of their humanity, then you can't fully respect them or fully understand them as sort of a just like you and I type of basis. And I know that growing up and really to this day, if and when we ever see anything about Indigenous people, for example, on the news or in the papers, it's something to do

with a hardship or a trauma. And often, in addition to that, there's not enough historical context for the viewer to understand that there's not anything wrong with us as people. It's what we've in through. It's this deeply rooted historical issue that has caused economic and political and social troubles

in our communities today. They often leave out this huge part of our story in our history, which is what we write about in the book, which is that we were a people that were thriving and well and our communities had so much to offer, very fascinating political structures and cultural teachings and gifts and abundance, and our people really understood wellness, I think in a very deep way.

And so as two individuals today who have done a lot of work on integrating our ancestral teachings and that have helped us on our spiritual journeys ever since we were children, were integrating those into the hardships that we also face in today's world. We recognize that these are tools that anybody can learn from, and we hope that folks now begin to see Indigenous culture in its fullness as opposed to just for some of the hardships that

we face on a day to day basis. Hi, everyone, I wanted to personally invite you to a workshop that we are offering at the end of October at the Omega Institute, which is in the Hudson Valley in New York, and it is really beautiful this time of year. It's going to be a great chance to meet some wonderful people, recharge and relax while learning foundational spiritual habits that will allow you to establish simple daily prac This is that will help you feel more at ease and more fulfilled

in your life. You can find details at one you feed dot net slash Omega. I'm really looking forward to meeting many of you there. I have a question that may lead us a variety of different directions past this. I really want to get into some of the Seven Circles stuff specifically. But one of the things about Native culture, and for very good reason. You'll probably explain the reasons in a minute. A lot of the beauty of your culture is shielded, right, It's sort of kept within the culture.

And I wonder do you think to any degree that makes it hard for outsiders to see beyond the narrative of their only being hardship and trauma. And again, you can explain why you guys keep your ceremonies private. And I think it's very justifiable, but I'm curious what you think about that. So cultural appropriation is a big issue, and we do, as Native people today, have to be very careful about what we talk about, what we share

at Native ceremonies. They're not events that are advertised or where photos are taken, or where videos or where we post on social media. Even at home, like Josh and I, we smudge and do stuff like that on a daily basis, and we never share that to social media because it's sacred. So it doesn't even make sense to be filming or taking photographs in the moment, because that takes us out of the moment, it takes us out of the purpose.

The other issue is that this is a very long history of our people being mocked and stereotyped in many different contexts. The most prominent example I can think of his Indian mascots. We all know what Chief wall Who

of the Cleveland Indians looks like. And when people see Indian mascots more often than they see real Native American people, then again, those stereotypes and those those mocking images as of us, they dehumanize us and they cause real political and social harm because then folks don't take us seriously when we do have political concerns or need to be heard as voices as a part of the rest of America. So yes, we have to keep our ceremonies close and sacred.

The other reason being that our ceremonies were actually illegal until with the American Indian Religious Freedoms Act. So that is generations of time when our grandparents and their grandparents were at risk of going to jail or facing death by simply practicing our spirituality. Because there was a long period of history where residential schools were in place and our people were beaten and harmed, whether it was we spoke our languages or we prayed in the way that

we pray, or those types of things. So all of that together leads us to this place today where we do have to be mindful and we ask folks to be respectful of our cultural privacy and of not engaging in cultural appropriation. And I also to like to add another view of perspective on how our communities function. A lot of our spiritual practices or ceremonial gatherings, they're very unique to very specific groups of people in very specific

locations within our cultures. It's not comparable to Western religion or any other religion where you could join it like this is an institution that you can become a member of, where you can become, you know, involved with. All of our teachings and ceremonies are very unique to families. It's it's families that make up community. So it's very interpersonal with the people that that do that. And it's very much related to the region of land that our people

have evolved on and have been on. So when people don't have the history in that land, they don't have history within the cultural context, then it may not do the same for them. So that's what you know. I think that a lot of people in the dominant culture, I guess understand some of this, this concept that our cultures are not something you can join. Spiritual practices are something that are very unique to these certain groups of people.

I would just also say to that a lot of our regalia or our sacred items that we use, the feathers, the pain, different things that people find very appealing and attractive. I think when it's not understood that these are typically family heirloom items, or that there's this huge body of knowledge and historical context that's required to utilize these things, even if their intentions are the best possible intentions, it really becomes a mockery of our culture. And and of

course that doesn't feel good. It feels quite harmful because everything has symbolism. A lot of the items we use, or the protocol which we take to conduct certain things, there's a very specific purpose with each and every one of them, and many people, if they're not raised within that context, they don't understand the meaning of some of

these things. So when things are taken out of context and they're practiced in another setting, then it's really like a piece of a puzzle being taken from you know, you've got two or three pieces from a thousand piece puzzle and you're adding it with pieces from another puzzle and trying to make something of it. That's sort of you know what what what is said there? But to answer your question, to to get back to to really

make sure that we answer your question. There is misconception because we do have to shield, we do have to protect ourselves, and so maybe that there are things about us that's not being seen. And I think that as dominant culture becomes more and more open to the history, I think that then we are seeing people the general populace start to become a little bit more aware and understanding of who indigenous people are of the United States

and Canada and other parts of the Western hemisphere. I think that it seems like to me that they're people are becoming more and more open to understanding that, and we are seeing some sort of change and that being reflected and dominant culture. And I hope that in the ceremony chapter specifically, where we do explain a lot of this history, we do also explain ways that any person can engage in their own personal, authentic ceremony that is true to them and true to their history and is

not in any way inappropriation of other cultures. Right. I mean, the first thing I'll say is, it's amazing how recent so much of this is. Like you said that it was illegal till nineteen seventy eight. I'm old enough that we played Cowboys and Indians as kids. That seems unfathomable to me now, but that was in my lifetime. That was a common game. You know, that was a seven

year old. I'd not like blaming myself, but it is amazing how recent, Like in many ways the indigenous rights and the recognition of that trails even the civil rights movement, right because you know, nobody in nineteen seventy five or seventy seven when I was a little kid would have been playing blacks and whites, right like, we wouldn't have done that. We were past that. To some I'm not saying we're past racism, but I'm just struck by how

re and all this is. You know that, how long, like you said, that your culture has been looked down on and appropriated and mocked, and how recent that is. And get this, my parents on both sides of my family have stories of cowboys and me means is a very popular game even on the reservation, and all the Native kids would want to be the cowboys. Yes, and because they internalize the hate and internalize the negativity about their own culture, and everybody wanted to be the cowboys.

So yes, it's very recent that we're even able. Like I always say, I'm grateful that I'm able to be proud of myself today and proud of who I am, because it was no small feat for our parents generation to overcome these generations of racism and internalized hate that they experienced. Yep, ye. The second thing I was going to say, which is this discussion about practices being taken out of context. You know, my primary spiritual practices zen boot is um, and I practice within a lineage that

has a long tradition. But there's a lot of discussion in the Buddhism slash meditation slash mindfulness world about what is secular mindfulness? Is it a helpful practice or is it having been stripped of its other Buddhist roots, primarily ethics and view right is it the right thing to do or not? And I think these are really interesting discussions that I don't know that there's right answers too.

But I think we're going to continue to face as we enter a more globalized and interconnected world, and if more people continue to be interested in wellness and spiritual practices,

this is going to continue. And how does this happen in a way that is respectful and it doesn't just yank something out of context, which not only could we say that that's problematic because it could be cultural appropriation, it's also problematic for the person because if you're applying a practice that on its own doesn't bring a lot of value, but for a lot of people mindfulness has so these sort of questions are sort of swimming in my world all the time where we are at on

this horizon. I think in the United States and other Western developed countries, people looking for something greater to carve out a pathway because of what has been created or what has been proposed by dominant society, you know, isn't working for many people. And we see that kind of reflected in how the country is turning in a political sense, social culturally, we kind of see that being reflected that there is a great many people who are looking for

something greater than Western religious ideology. They're looking for something of deeper spiritual substance. And I think, to me, it makes sense that, you know, there's other cultures around the world that have things to offer. And that's what our seven Circles really is. It's a template. It's a really basic template that's based on the original life ways of a lot of our people. It's a template that we feel we made it appropriate for all people to sort

of follow someone of these guidelines right right there. So I think that those are good questions to ask, and I think that people should should remain open ended with these discussions at this time, and as we go further into the generations down the future, there may be better answers that will provide us with a better stance. But right now is a very nuanced conversations. They require a lot of nuance and understanding, and every situation, every person

in their situation is different. So I would encourage everybody out there in the world to just let this be impending for a long time and then we start to better understand collectively, you know, how we go forward with what people are seeking. I think something that Thosh and I would always recommend and what we practice ourselves too, because we learn things from around the world and from different people that come from different walks of life than us.

And it's always just this matter of treading lightly and that will sort of help you and guide you on your way on your spiritual journey. It's not feeling this need to immediately become certified or expert or you know, center of whatever practice you may be learning from, Like be very comfortable and humble about learning from a distance and taking things slowly and not necessarily having it on the forefront of your mind to be some kind of

leader in that realm. And I think when we learn to tread lightly, we will all move through life much more easily. Now, that is a very difficult thing for a lot of people to do, because in Western culture, the instinct and what people are constantly being pushed towards is get that degree, get that certification, become that expert, gather all of the knowledge, and then you'll be respected. So it's something that we have to teach ourselves out of.

We have to unlearn that instinct and be confident in being a student from a distance and a little bit more humble about it. And I think we'll go far in our spiritual your rays if we can begin to integrate that. I mean a couple of thoughts on that. The first is nuance is not particularly prevalent in most of our conversations today, which is unfortunate because it's exactly

what we need. And that second thing that you're talking about, I think is really interesting because I think it comes from a good place, which is that, particularly in Western culture, we're told you should do what you love, you know, find a career that is meaningful. So if you've got a job that feels completely meaningless, you're working in a big corporation and suddenly you find this thing yoga that

feels so meaningful to you. There's this natural push I see it in everything, Like if you make a good brownie, people start saying to you, like you should start a brownie store. It's so endemic in the culture. And again, I think a lot of it is people who are seeking deeper meaning in life. And that's not a bad thing. But you're right, there is a period of being a student before you become a teacher. I think you have to be a student for a while before you become

a teacher. Let's pivot to the seven circles a little bit. Do you want to run us through just kind of what the seven are real quick and then maybe we can pick a couple to go a little deeper. And we're not going to have time to dive into each of them, but maybe we can give the overview. Yeah, seven circles is um we have a relationship to food, water is also including their sleep, movement, ceremony, sacred space, connection to community, and connection to land. So seven of them.

So for the listeners, I would like to encourage you to think about that these are in a circle and think of a clock. Food is like around twelve you know, and then around three would be where like ceremony is and you know, it goes all the way around in a circle. You are at the center of that circle. And the different practices you have with each of these seven life ways reflects your spiritual, physical, mental, and emotional state.

You're at the center of it. But if you reach your hands outward and you make a circle, if you put your hands and extend them and then you twist around, you're gonna make like a circle, and then the circumference and just think about your circle is also a space where you have people that are you're connected to, that you love, that, people that you cherish, people whose own overall health and wellness is affected by the way you live.

So you are in that and those people all around you they have people too that are in there's and it goes on and on and on and all throughout the world. So there's us, there's family, and then outside of the families community, outside of community is the greater world. And we are a part of this interconnected world of

living organisms. Amongst small microorganisms that we can't see, amongst the four leggeds, amongst the finned, amongst the winged, we are a part of all of that there, So we're not at the center of it, We're somewhere in the middle of it. We are a part of this interconnected, you know, network of living organisms. So seven circles is really all of that. Is all of that, we all law of teachings associated with it, such as kindness, love, compassion, honor, respect, bravery, honesty.

We have all these teachings that are also associated with the seven circles. You touched on it for a second there, which was these four parts of existence mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual, and you use the native symbol of the medicine wheel to signify that. Do you want to say

a little bit more about the medicine wheel. Yeah, absolutely. So. One of the reasons that we created this model of seven circles is because everything else that we were seeing at the time in the modern wellness industry was organized by lists or by pillars, and something that was inherent about our way of thinking because of the way we were raised with our spirituality, is that we saw things more interconnected, and we saw these barriers and this categorical

thinking as a bit of a hindrance because in fact, you can't separate all these different areas of life or separate them out on your this journey. There are all interconnected and they impact one another. And so one of the reasons that we understand that is because of this

ancient symbol called the medicine wheel. Now this is more so from my culture because I'm Lakota and Ojibwe is just from the northern plains region, and this is something I was raised with from childhood, and Dash has other things that he also grew up with that are more from his nation that also teach this cyclical way of thinking. But the medicine wheel is a circle divided into four parts mental, physical, spiritual, and emotional. There's four colors black, red, yellow,

and white. And from each of those quadrants come different animal or nations or different elemental forces or different things that give us life. And so learning to pray and to understand the medicine wheel allowed me to always understand that these areas of our life impact each other. We

have to strive to live and balance. And so the way that I can describe it is like an author of fiction today might have certain ancient literary texts that in a very deep way can influence their art or the way that they write, so for us as wellness practitioners, the medicine wheel is something that's very ancient and very old and ubiquitous at this point amongst indigenous people, people from all nations have probably seen it, and it influences

our way of thinking or mine, at least as an individual. And so while the medicine wheel is an ancient symbol that has helped to inform and help us to come up with our understanding of wellness as being cyclical and interconnected, the Seven Circles is something that we created on our

own as as individuals. What you basically are doing in the book is you've got the seven circles, which thoughst just listed out, and then within each of those, you look at that circle through that lens of mental, physical, emotional, and spiritual. So you're really bringing it together. And I agree with you. I never thought of it before. But the idea of pillars is they are separate from each other.

They do support something. So but one of the things you guys talk about in the book a lot, and I think it's so wise, is that these things aren't separate, and the more that you can combine them, the easier your life gets. Movement as an example, you say that Indigenous people just moved as part of life. Obviously our modern world isn't that way, but the more we can

make it that way, the better. And you talk a lot about like your kids are involved in your movement, So these different circles overlap, so it's not like you've got to find time for seven different circles, right, there's a lot of time where one activity done in a certain way may actually hit multiple of these circles for you, and I just love the way you put that together

in the book. Yeah, we like to encourage everyone to understand that all these seven circles, as well as your spiritual, physical, mental, emotional state of being, they're inextricably connected, and if you think of them in a visual sense, if you grab one and you wobble it, it's going to move everything else.

Just like what you just said, for instance, like connection to land really, in my mind, is pretty much involved in every single one of these circles, because the land and our relationship to the land with all human beings really is what allowed us to be how we are today and is for Native people were all land ace cultures and always say that the land has curated our cultures and how it goes today, It curates how we

interact with it. So the land is I guess you could also say to overarching in a sense, but for me, it's it's ubiquitous across all of these various circles. So like what you just said to speak to your statement a little while ago that say, if we were to get out on the land seasonally and we were to forage or hunt or fish something with family members, there's a lot going on right there because we are we

are facilitating or we are fostering this connection to the land. Also, before we start harvesting, if we recite words of giving thanks towards, really you're speaking to all things. You're not just speaking to the people in your group. You're making a statement to and some people might say the universe. You're making a statement to a great source of creation that created everything. You're giving thanks to the sunlight that provided the medicine and the power for these plants to grow.

You're giving thanks that these microorganisms all played a role in allowing them, and you're you're giving thanks for this ability to consume them, and you're letting the plant know that you're asking for it, to forgive you for taking pieces of it. But as you do that, you're doing it to nourish yourself in the family and the people here.

So there's a lot going on there because then we're thinking about what we're fostering this greater, deeper, more meaningful connection to a food source, and we all need food, and you're doing it from the land which you live upon, and for Native people were doing something that has been done for thousands of years. We're just playing out that role and we're doing it with people that we love.

And so you're doing all these things right here. And so you have the circle of family, community, you have the circle of connection to land, you have the circle of food. You have the circle of movement. Because you're you're moving, you're getting out and maybe you're doing this fast and you know you're getting out. You're taking you know, several thousand steps walking around the land, picking berries, picking roots, picking cactus buds, you know, wild beans, whatever it is.

You're just putting in lots of steps there. So you're moving to and you're also giving thanks for what health you have to be able to move across the and to do that right there. And then you're acknowledging your place and the greater network of all living beings that you acknowledge. You're not at the center of it, and things don't revolve around you, but you're somewhere in the

middle between the end and the center of it. The center is the great creator, whatever that is that created everything. So you know, I'd just like to share that to give the listener is another understanding of how all these things are interconnected right there, and how they all sort of impact us in different ways. So within that what I just expressed, people are starting to feel a sense

of connectedness. You're feeling belonging, sense of belonging. You've you experienced a sense of purpose, and you now have another purpose about why you're living, and it's to seek this this harmony and balance that I just described there. I think that's such a great example because you really do bring all these different elements together. And I do think in our modern world, unless we choose to step out of it, which most of us aren't going to do, we are really busy and so and you say this

so well in the book. We can't keep looking to find more time that we take to be well. We have to bring the wellness, the spirituality, the connection into what we're already doing because there's only so much time. There's only so much time, and so if you can

be strategic and find ways to do that. I mean, I created a course called Spiritual Habits, and that's the heart of the idea, is exactly that, Like you don't have more time for a whole lot of extra practices, how do we weave these ideas through every part of our life? Integration? Well, I would love to take your course because it is something that again you know, we're the first admit we're not perfect at this. We're constantly striving and having to try to pull ourselves back into balance.

And integration truly is the key. It's necessary because, like you said, we are so busy, we are in this noisy, chaotic world, and we really have to strive to integrate a lot of these movement and food and ceremony, in these different teachings into our day to day. Yep. So let's stay on land for a second because I wanted to touch on something that you said there in the book, and you say, the capitalist notion of land separates into

two categories. Natural and developed this idea along with The myth that indigenous people and pre contact times lived here and there on mostly empty land they did nothing with has been one of the most harmful ideas used against Indigenous people. So talk to me about this, you know, natural and developed land. And then maybe the following of that would be, how do people who feel like they're not in the natural world connect to land? Yeah, that's a great question. And you know, for us, what we're

taught is that the land is everywhere. Whether we're in the middle of a city or a suburb or out in the country, we're still we're always on the land. We should always respect the earth where we are, and to separate it kind of does us a service because a it makes us feel like we can't connect to the land unless we are in this prestigent National Park area, and be it makes us feel like these urban areas

are just too far gone. You know, there's no sense in carrying any more deeply for this mother earth that we're on in the suburbs, because it's already developed, you know. So I think what we encourage is just a shift towards remembering that really the earth is everywhere and it's up to us to recognize and respect the land, and we can connect to the earth no matter where we are, because we always see the sky above us, the sun.

There's typically an area, even in an urban environment, we can find grass, We can find outdoor areas to walk, and we can continue to prioritize the cultivation of those areas and to call into question when there is thoughtless development, or to begin to think maybe we do prioritize green spaces in our cities more than what the generation before us did. So we have agency in these processes, and I think that once we begin to appreciate the land

wherever we are, it really benefits us holistically. There's a painful of words in the English language that I objectively don't use, and one of them is nature. The word nature for the concept of nature too. In our languages, we don't have words for natural. In nature, we have words that describe the great spirit of great creation or source of energy, a life force that created everything. We have words that describe that, and I guess that for myself those are sort of along the lines that I

like to I guess speak in those terms. But even before we got really on this healing journey and doing our work, I didn't use that word nature as well too, because we were raised doing a lot of stuff on the land. You know, we we have revitalized a lot in our generation. There was a lot that our parents generation didn't know about doing on the land, and a lot of us had revitalized that and to become the

norm there. But the concept of nature, I think, you know, like Chelsea said earlier, the concept of nature, it teaches people there's a separation, so people separate themselves from that. And I think that when that happens there, the separation happens in the mind. That affects and behavior patterns as well collectively, in both individually, and I think that it's important for people to understand that, yes, the land is everywhere upon us. In this home here we're sitting in

a house. We have natural light coming in. When we talk about the land, that's what we talk about. The lights coming in here and it's bringing blessings, and air is all around us. We're breathing that. It's all around us here. We step outside and oftentimes you might see, you know, trees that are ornamental, but still nonetheless they

are trees. They're they're giving off oxygen. Whatever sort of weather is outside, whether it's cold, crisp air, cloudy, rainy, sunny, the land is all around us, and I think that it's important for people to first just think knowledge that when they step outside. Just to answer you the second part of your question is that people can start really simply by first stepping out of the door or the

office or the school. And when you when you're walking on the land, try to abstain from using the electronic devices and just take a moment to just acknowledge what's around you here. Acknowledge these these elements that are allowing you to to live the area right here, the sun right here, or cool weather that might be making it possible for you to be out there, or the warm weather that might be making it possible for you to

out there. Just start simply by acknowledging these things, and then make it a part of your personal practice to be objective about Okay, let's get out of the city a little bit. Let's get out and do things. And then in time, maybe we learn about foraging seasonally. Then

we're following seasons, then we're connecting to land there. Maybe let's learn how to if they don't already do it, what can we fish and hunt, even if it's just something a little bit, what can we grow on our window seal or in the backyard, you know, what can we grow to just include that's connection to land. All these things are very very base, simple connection to land that I think that a lot of people can implement

early on. And then I think just to give people another example of how to implement that concept with some

of the bigger decisions we make in life. Is, for example, we have some land where we're eventually going to build a house, and because this is the way that we think, our goal is not to build the biggest house that we can afford, because you have to think long term, like, not only does that take up more actual land and space aware from where we could be running around outside or growing things or you know, adding onto our field of food that we already have, but also it requires

more energy, more electricity to cool because we live in the desert, and just in general it makes us much bigger consumers, so we have to buy more furniture and feel you know, So our goal is to build as small of a house as we're comfortable living in, so that we have less of a footprint. So that's kind of like some of the ways that as individuals we can actually make a really big difference if we just

start to view life a little bit differently. And that is such an interesting shift because the dominant Western idea has always been bigger house, bigger house, bigger house, bigger house. But when you really think about it, like you guys just laid it out, it doesn't make a lot of sense, Like why do I need five extra rooms that nobody ever uses? Like what is that accomplished? You know, what is that actually done versus you know, sort of what

it costs. And you guys talk about having a subsistence worldview, maybe you could say a little bit about what that means. Right, So we encourage folks to adapt a subsistence worldview, meaning we don't have often the ancestral technology or the knowledge or the land base even to live a subsistence lifestyle as our ancestors did, or you know, even as native people are hunting grounds and our agricultural systems and everything

has been taken away due to capitalism. But what we do encourage is for folks to begin simply respecting the earth as something that provides life, something that we all need, something that is our caretaker. We are not the stewards of the land. The land takes care of us, and everything we use and eat and need comes from the land. So once we begin to recognize that, I think that it just comes naturally to make decisions in our life

that are a little bit less environmentally harmful. And we know too, Again I have to always say it, we're not perfect at this. We are consumers, we are residents of cities. I mean, there's so much that we could be doing better at and we're trying, and we're learning, and this is a process for everyone, and we just want to say that we're right there with you and trying to go through this process as best as possible. So let's change direction here before we run out of space.

Because one of the parts of the book that I love the most was the talking about ceremony. And I want to read a particular idea that you guys talk about. You say, remember, routines are good because they provide structure and order, but rituals add creativity, They add a deeper sense of meaning and purpose. So talk to me about the role of ceremony in life. And you know, kind

of around that idea of routines, and rituals. So again, because of the fact that we grew up attending indigenous ceremonies that come from our tribes, our nations, we understand that it's important for people to have some semblance of ceremony in your life. And people can do this on a day to day basis, and even for us who attend these events with our nations, we also have to try to implement these and live this way and a day to day, not just while we're in the moment.

And so we can incorporate ceremony by creating rituals that helped to uplift and elevate our consciousness even what otherwise could be a mundane day to day task. So, for example, instead of going through the motions, which is what a routine is, I do X, Y and Z. You add some amount of emotion or intention to that, and when you do that regularly, then suddenly you're living life ceremonially.

So like with our daughter, Josh has such an awesome way of integrating that with our little girls and tell them what you do like with al every night before sleep most nights on a good night are four year old, when I'm put her to bed, I'll cuddle her, and then we'll do a short giving of thanks, like I'll tell our saying, we give thanks, and I use lots of our language. I give thanks to Atash the sunlight. We give thanks to Javatka, their mother earth here, and

we give thanks to vot Air not the fire. We go down the list of a lot of elements and things that are important to us, like it's certain elements on the land here, it's the four legged nations, and we give thanks for like our our health. And Allo shall follow sleep to this too, so falls asleep to it, and so it's in her mind. It's in her mind, this this concept of like gratitude on a daily basis,

you know, something that we practice. And if she's still awake, I'll say, tomorrow is another day, and tomorrow we have happy day, and we do good things, and we learn and we laugh, like I try to acknowledge like laughing, and try to acknowledge like learning and stuff like that, and I acknowledge being okay with tantrums, you know, have something on like learning to deal with better patients with you know, four year old tantrums and things like that,

which the more we do these things, there's a lot less of it in a day. I noticed that, And we're intentional about these things right there. But yeah, this is these are things that you could say, that's that's very ritualistic. You know. We encourage people to practice little things like that on a daily basis. Yeah, or even for myself, there's a big difference in my morning. If I just get right to emails and typing away on my phone and stuff, that's okay, that's part of my

routine sometimes, yes, because I have to work. But if I take some time and space before that, and I literally, like you know, clean up my bedroom and light a candle and just sit there and take out a physical book and read a little bit of something that inspires me. And it might be completely irrelevant to what I have to do my task at hand, but it helps me because it clears space in my mind to be more productive and to be happier and to be more in

the moment. And so I just think the more that we can integrate these moments of intention ritual into our lives and for that of our loved ones and our children, the more that we suddenly realize we're walking in a ceremonial way, We're integrating that every single day. Something that I do too in the in the mornings that I try to get up before the girls get up, like around five or thirty. Sometimes it just depends on how the day was before and how much sleep do I

need it. You know, If I got to sleep at a decent time, then I can get up when I want, like which is like five thirty. I make it a point to not get on social media right way, getting not getting on emails and things like that right away. And one of my little rituals, as my coffee steeps when it's a good morning, when I'm doing what I would like to do, then the windows are open in the morning, light is just about to come in the dawnlight, and I should meditate and not I don't every morning,

but I'll meditate. I'll meditate as my coffee steeps, and then I'll have my coffee and I sip it, and then it's more enjoyable there. And I try to just kind of sit with that for a little bit. Don't jump on the phone right away, because when you're getting straight to the phone and you're looking at social media, you're looking at news right away. I think what we are telling ourselves is that we're more concerning what's happening

in the lives of other people than our own. So I think it's a good opportunity to kind of sit and visualize today, how do I want the state to go? How am I going to respond today? Everything is all about responding if you really think about it, right, We're responding all the time. How I want to respond? I want to respond proactive? Do I want to be hastily?

Because sometimes I get hasty If I'm a little you know, irritable and I'm not taking care of myself, I have to ask myself, how do I want to respond today? And I'll try to, you know, make it that goal. Today's going to be a day where I'm gonna be a bit more productive and solution in my thinking. So that's just my little example of two. You know, how

you can incorporate these things on a daily basis. I love that framing of you know, if you hop on email and social media, you're immediately becoming more concerned with other people's lives than your own. Um And of course a big part of our spiritual practice is concerned for other people's lives. But that's not what we're talking about here, right. You know, hopping on social media is not demonstrating concern for your community necessarily. That's a really good way to

frame it. And I think this is a challenge that I mean, so many people face. I've had so many people on you know, I've had five hundred conversations and you know, people you would look at and you would they've got it all figured out, and they still are like, I'm wrestling with my phone in the morning, man, Like I can I can't, you know, turn on email first thing. You know, we all wrestle with this. These devices are

so sticky. I feel like I'm in a constant battle with it where it's like Okay, I get ahead of it for a while, and I get like three or four months rom like okay, that's good, I've got you know, I'm not getting on the phone first thing the morning, and then it's somehow it creeps back in and the next thing I know, I'm like I'm doing it again, and then I got to work to get it out or at night. Yeah. But again, you know, it's because these technologies are so new that we don't have ancient

systems of dealing with them. So it's our job for our generations to figure these things out, to start to create systems and modes of operating for the coming generations to follow, because they're going to deal with even more of it than we have. And so um steps like just being very intentional and start with your endgame, what do I want my relationship to technology to look like? And working back there and taking steps to get to

that space. I want only you know, two hours of screen time per day, one hour of phone, one hour of computer. That's so minimal, by the way, that's very minimal compared to what most people are doing. Yeah, and then you just work backward from there and you literally create a plan for yourself and try to follow it, just as you would create a diet or an exercise

or some other kind of routine. You know, there's many mismatches in the modern day world to you know, our genes, there's many different things that were mismatched within a relationship. And two devices is new one. So we're in this early phase as human beings on learning how to coexist in a healthy way with the devices that make our

lives easier. So it's important for everyone to encourage and not to feel guilty and get down yourself when you are falling back into that addictive phase with the devices. I encourage everyone to just be a little patient and just just gently Okay, I realized what doing. We put it aside and let me get back on track and not shame myself because you know, I have the whole day to kind of, you know, catch up. Yeah. I think you said earlier, Chelsea, that part of balance is

being out of balance, right. You know when I talk with coaching clients about Okay, we're trying to establish, let's say, a consistent daily meditation practice. Right, what I think I've gotten good at and now that I've got very consistent meditation and movement and habits is I get off the track, of course, But the amount of time I'm off of it, I've learned to shrink that instead of getting off the track for a week or a month, I'm off for a day and then I'm like, card, let's get back on.

You know, because if we strive for perfection, and you guys talk a lot about this in the book, we get discouraged. If we think we should be doing this better or perfect we get discouraged and we don't try. There's there's a certain amount of recognizing like we're human.

That's the way this world is. I love that idea that we don't have much time with these technologies to have developed the systems, and we know that there are really, really mark people who devote their lives to figure in out how to make sure we don't set the phone down. And I'm not saying they're evil, that's just the that's the business model. The business models is our attention. That is what is being bought and sold, and we have to take that back in our own lives if we

want it. Yeah. I mean I read an article and I think it was in the New York Times where they interviewed tech executives from all the big companies, and they all said that they actively keep their own children away from that stuff, yet it's their job to produce it, to make it addictive. So and that I think that answers a lot of questions for us right there totally. So what you said there about um, you you will spend if you do get on off track, it will

be for less time. And the other thing I'll say that we should acknowledge and uplift ourselves and think of the progress we've made, even when we do fall off balance. It's like if we've gone through at least some period of time where we've learned how to exercise, where we've learned how to cook a healthy meal, where we've learned how to meditate, that is a tool that stays with us forever. So sometimes it's just initially getting into these

things can be really really hard. But then remember that these are tools that will benefit you, and you will have access to these for the rest of your life, and that returning to is going to become easier and easier every single time. So that's what I really encourage folks to think about. That's such a powerful perspective. This gets back to what we talked about earlier about noticing what is right about you versus what's always wrong about you.

The perspective you just gave is an encouraging one, the one that people often take those the opposite of that, which is I keep failing, therefore I must not be able to do it, versus I've been learning and I can reapply that. I think that's such a better way to look at it. We are over time and I need to wrap us up. We're going to continue in the post show conversation for a few minutes because I have lots of other things i'd like to talk to

you about. One is I've got to talk to you about your family winter count ritual, which is amazing, and then I think we will also talk a little bit about movement. So listeners, you can get access to post show conversations like this one ad free episodes, teaching song and a poem episode I do by going to one you feed dot net slash join Thosh and Chelsea. Thank you so much. This has been a real pleasure. I've enjoyed talking with you. Thank you so much. It's been

awesome to be here, and we're just so grateful. Yes, thank you again for your interest in our book and thank you for choosing to feature us here in your podcast. And you hope all the listeners find something good in our book. It comes out October and pre orders are available as well right now on HarperCollins Publishing, So we hope that there's something in there for everyone and that they get something good out of it. So thanks again

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