How to Find Inner Calm and Happiness with Gretchen Rubin

or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf m Thanks for joining us.

Our guest on this episode is Gretchen Ruben, an author, podcast host, and founder of the Happiness Project, helping create an ecosystem of imaginative products and tools to help people become happier, healthier, more productive and more creative. Gretchen has been interviewed by Oprah, walked arm in arm with the Dalai Lama, and she's probably our only guest that has been an answer on Jeopardy. Today, Gretchen and Eric discuss her new book Outer Order in her calm Declutter and

Organized to make Room for Happiness. Hi, Gretchen, Welcome to the show. Hello, I'm so happy to be talking to you today. Yeah, I am really happy to have you back on. We're going to be discussing a variety of things related to happiness to the new year. Primarily we're going to focus on one of your more recent books, which is called Outer Order, inter Calm Declutter and Organized to make more room for happiness. But I don't think

that will constrain the whole conversation. But before we get started, we have a traditional way of starting, which is that we talked about the parable. So in the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that

are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear, And the grandchild stops and thinks about it for a second and looks up with their grandparents says, well, which one wins? And the grandparents says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you and

your life right now. Well, I love that you start with this parable because I'm a huge fan of paradoxes and Cohen's and teaching stories, so I love a teaching story like this one, and I think it's exactly right. One things I really focus on is this idea that by thinking about our aims and the kind of life that we want and how we can be happier, healthier and more productive and more creative, we can feed that wolf.

And we can think about, well, how would I feed that wolf, Like not just thinking like I want my wolf to be bigger, but like, what are the kinds of things that would feed that wolf? And then also if I want one wolf to shrink, what are the things that I would do that could take away from that wolf? What can I do with my conscious thoughts and actions to bring that about? So I love that it makes this a very concrete thing to imagine, and I think that when things are more concrete, it's easier

to keep them in mind. Yeah, as we move into twenty twenty three, I think that's the year we've lost your acts. Some people do New Year's resolutions, other people pick a word for the year to orient them. Do you participate in any sort of New Year's rethinking about things? And if so, have you done that yet or that's yet to come this year? Yes. I a big fan of using January one as sort of a catalyst for reflection.

I mean, many people say, well, it's an arbitrary date, we could do this at any time, But what I find is that things that can be done at any time are often done at no time. So it's good to have a reminder. And whether that's New York's Day or your birthday, or an important milestone or the solstice or whatever it is for you. And I'd like that at January one, everyody sort of talking about it and kind of reminding each other to think about it. Um.

So yeah, I do make resolutions. On the Happier with Gretchen Movement podcast, my sister and I always pick a one word theme for the year, so for two My theme was salt um, which has a lot of kind of metaphorical meanings. And I haven't unveiled my word for three, but I think I'm like cent committed to it has a lot again, it has layers of meaning um. And then we also do something and it changes every year.

So we did like a twenty list for twenty one list twenty two lists where we make a list of twenty three things that we would like to get done in the year, and some of them are fun things. I always add a few things that I can do and like the next day, you know, I like the morale booster of having something to cross off. And then some are more ambitious, and then you know, some we've carried over from each of us on our list, have

carried over, you know, from year to year. But there's still something that we want to get done, so we keep it on the list so we don't forget that it's something that we want to do. And then also each year we do a challenge like we had walked twenty and twenty and rest twenty two and twenty two where you would rest for twenty two minutes a day, join that challenge, and then again we haven't unveiled for three.

But it's a good way to sort of think about, well, what is something that most of us want to bring into our life. A lot of people are turned off by resolutions, like they have bad associations because they've like maybe made and broken them in the past. So having a different way to set a name and think about, well what would I do to achieve that aim? I think if it makes it feel more fun and more playful, people are more likely to engage with it. Yeah, that's great.

My editor Chris has a rest in twenty two, but his was twenty two hours a day. Maybe he got get carried away. Get carried away. And if you keep going, you know, um, if you're fortunate enough to be doing a podcast in thirty years, you're going to be having like fifty five things to do in a year. No, no no, no, we've thought about that. Okay, you've got a plan, so we might do five plus five is ten or maybe

it's you know five or yeah, got it. We've already had listeners kind of flagging that for us because I think they're sort of getting overwhelmed in advance. It's like no, no, no, there's solutions for that. Creative solutions, and then some nice people use it in a different way, like they might say, I want to read twenty three novels, I want to try twenty three new hikes. So again, like you can use it or I want to do twenty things that

are easy and three things that are harder. You know, it's just the idea of there's a lot of ways to interpret it, but it's just to get you in the process of articulating a name. And then you know, once we articulate a name, we're a lot more likely to follow up on it than if we just sort of leave it banging around in our heads. Agreed. Yeah, the new year can't have the ability to really jump

start a way of thinking. I've experimented with having a word of the year the last couple of years, and I'm starting to wonder if for me, I need a word per six months. Interesting, that's a great idea. It sort of seems to run out of energy for me

in you know, June, July, August. Now, maybe that's a sign I need to recommit and double down at that point, but it might also just be a sign that, like, Okay, I've really lived with that word and that idea and I'm ready for something else to give me the energy to carry forward. I have an idea for you, halfway Day. So I was reading an essay about people on submarines, and apparently, at least on this one submarine, they would

celebrate halfway Day. And when the people would come onto the submarine, they would bring like a shoe box full that had been packed by like their friends and family, which they would keep closed, and then on halfway day they would all open it and get all these sort of piventos and things, and it was a way to celebrate the fact that they were halfway through their tour of duty. And I was just enchanted by this idea of halfway day, because again, it's a catalyst to recommit.

I love a catalyst. So I have like a whole calendar of catalysts that people want, like interesting creative ideas for catalysts, like you use April first to think about money and savings because it's for oh one day for anyway, And so maybe for you, since you've noticed this about yourself, instead of trying to fight it and be like oh, I should double down, you should say like, hey, I'm ready for kind of like a new refreshing view. Why don't I celebrate halfway day with my new word? That

could be fun? I like it. I'm going to run with it. I'm gonna go with my intuition that half a year is enough. What was your word last year? I'm scous love classic, Classic. Yeah, it was really for me about like I've done a lot of work over the years, really trying to live into the fact that love is an action. And I feel like I've gotten pretty good at that. Right, We all can improve, but I feel like I've got loving action. It's a strength of mine. What I don't have as much is the

experience of feeling love moment to moment, day to day. Now. I know we're not going to always be in it. For me, I wanted to try and connect more to the feelings of love, to actually have the experience of a feeling of love more. And as I did that, I actually realized, like I experienced it more than I thought I did. You know, I was sort of starting to connect the dots and be like, well, eight times today, you've been in love with your dog. You know you've

fallen in love with four new pieces of music this week? Right, you feel warm and affectionate towards your partner a lot. You watch three TV shows that brought you to tears because they were so beautiful. Like I realized, like, Okay, I'm not bereft of it maybe in the way I thought I was. So that became the learning more than I have to increase it. Although I did work on that, I became more conscious like, oh, that's actually there. It just needs a little nudge to the foreground. You know.

That's so interesting because Better Than Before is a book that I wrote about habit change, and I identify the twenty one strategies we can use to make or break our habits. And one of the strategies is the strategy of monitoring, because what the research shows is that when people monitor something, they tend to be better at doing it, even if they're not trying to change it kind of

moves them more in that direction. But I found also is that like with monitoring, sometimes it's very reassuring for something like I want to spend more quality time with my child. Sometimes what people find is when they look there like actually, I'm doing a better job with this

than I think. As sometimes we get discouraged, we don't give ourselves enough credit, and it's great for you to realize, like, actually, now that I'm shining a spotlight on this and really trying to pay attention to it, I realized that I am actually experiencing this more. And then by realizing that you're experiencing it, you sort of do experience it more.

That's exactly it. Yeah, it's interesting. So it wasn't even that you weren't doing it, It's just you weren't realizing it, sort of running under the level of sort of your conscious awareness. Yeah. I teach a program called spiritual habits where we try and take spiritual principles and combine them with the habit of behavior change. And one of them is generosity. And you know, one of the things that I say in that lesson is go be more generous.

Another way to interpret this lesson is to look at all the ways you already are and reconnect to those, reconnect to the time you are spending with your kids is generous, That it's loving, And because again, for whatever reason, I always find as humans, it's so odd that we can be sort of doing and experiencing something and yet completely sort of unaware that we're doing and experiencing it.

You know sometimes like it is I call it sort of connecting the dots back, like just connect the dots back to what you're doing or the ways that you already are living according to your values. Well, it's funny. I made these like sticky pads to sell and like some of them are is a to do list, But another sticky pad is a t doll list, because I realize that for a lot of people, they're they're constantly like,

I'm not doing this, I'm not doing that. I'm procras Like you know, the list gets longer and longer, and you're like, but you're not giving yourself credit for all. It's sort of like what you're saying about monitoring, we don't realize about what we've done. And so for a lot of people making a to doll list, they've got to do and they've got to dot which is everything

they've already done. For many people that's very energizing and encouraging because they can sort of get hard on themselves thinking about the things that are undone and not connecting the dots to think about the things that they have done. And strangely, sometimes you can do more when you realize how far you've already come, and so I think for some people that's a really important, like you say, spiritual practice, which is, you know, what is my tada and what

can I say that I'm already participating in. There's a classic example of the gift I was talking about before the show that you have of taking a concept and giving it a very clever name, very good, thank you. Yes, I have to say I was proud of that. I love I love it like a rhyming symmetrical yeah, the fluency bias they call that. Yeah. Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about outer order inter calm, because my first reaction to the d clutter movement that showed up was

one of sort of a profound non interest. I don't remember. With the best selling book by Marie Condo that just went crazy right, and I just was like, well, I mean maybe it's because I'm fairly tidy anyway, I don't know. But when I heard your title Outer Order Inner Calm, I went, oh, Okay, that actually connects a dot for me, right, that actually connects a dot that says yeah. Because the minute I heard that, I went, oh, yeah, like I get that completely. When my outer environment is chaotic, I

feel slightly chaotic, and so you said that. In my study of happiness, I've realized that for most of us, outer order contributes to inter calm more than it should. So say a little bit about how you found your way into this well, because for exactly what you're saying, it's like I felt this connection between sort of if there was chaos on the outside, it felt like there was chaos and me. And if I felt in control of my environment, I felt more in control of myself,

which is an illusion, but it's a helpful illusion. And when I talk to people just like you, it's like there's a connection there. And I remember a friend of mine said, you know, I finally cleaned out my fridge, and all I know, I can switch careers. And I thought, you know, I get it. And and people would would say, like, I feel like when I clean out my closet, I feel just kind of this sense of energy and focus

and and and a sense of possibility. And I think kind of disproportionately, because we can all agree that like a crowded coat closet is not something that is like a significant relevance to whether you're happy, healthy, productive, creative, and yet over and over people reported that they did feel this connection, and it is something that it's very

much within our control. Also, it's interesting where often by getting rid of things, whether that's by donating them or fixing them or tossing them or recycling them or whatever is appropriate, people feel more engaged in their environments, like they're not fighting their way through stuff that doesn't work or is broken, and so they feel more engaged with their things. If there are things connected to memories, they feel more in connection. Those memories feel kind of alive.

The clutter of life gets wiped away, and so it seems like one of these things where it really seems like a minor thing, but then on the other hand, it seems like it's actually kind of a major thing. And so I was just very interested in exploring that because I thought it was kind of surprising. Yeah, well, in your work on habits, you and I both share a real interest in this. Right, one of the things that becomes clear is that little things can often make

a big difference. Right, our environment is stupidly important. Like the example I always give is the difference between my guitar sitting on a stand and sitting in the case, And every time I realized that when it's on the stand, I play it way more. I feel like, what is the matter with you that that could possibly be it like it takes two seconds to flip the case open, like, but it's undeniably true. Yeah, And I'll give you an example.

Somebody just told me yesterday. So he was like, I wanted to ride my bike to work, but I kept taking the car and I realized, like, I parked my bike like around the corner so it's kind of slightly more out of sight, and like chained it up there. And then I thought, you know, it's just like I can't be bothered to walk like the extra few steps. I'm gonna put it right in front of my door, so I see it every time I walk out. And he's like, huge, huge increase in the number of times

to victories. And he's like, look, if my bikes gets stolen, my bike gets stolen, but if I'm never riding my bike, it might as well be stolen. Because this is, you know, the same thing. I mean, you think the difference between opening a case and not opening a case, how could

that possibly make a difference, And yet it does. There's this hilarious research showing that if you are at a salad bar, if people can use a spoon instead of tongs, they will take more food because like tongs are just too much work, and people won't take as much food because they just can't be bothered to use tongs. So you're exactly right, like these very very kind of laughably small changes can end up being quite significant. It's really hilarious. Yeah.

So one of the other things I think you do a really nice job of in your work is sort of recognizing not everybody's the same. You know, your four tendencies as an example of this. So is outer order inter calm sort of work for everybody, or there are a group of people that it just doesn't seem to matter. There seemed to be people we know who have the crazy the desk that were like, if that was my desk, I would jump off a bridge, But it seems to be what suits them right. Well, I think there's a

couple different distinctions. One is that some people are truly clutter blind. Um and my co host Unhappier with Gretchen Movement is my sister Elizabeth, and my sister is clutter blind. So I'm very in touch with this and these are people who just don't see it. It doesn't back up on them because they just don't see it. My sister would never close a kitchen cabinet door for the rest of her life if she lived by herself. It doesn't weigh on her the way it weighs on me. She's

just totally indifferent to it. And we know people like this, and I think for them, if they're sort of like, well, why would I bother to do it? I'm like, well, why would you bother to do it? If you're with other people and have to share an environment, then you have to figure out a way so everybody feels comfortable. But if it's just your space, like there's no magic to it. If you feel like you don't feel any better doing it, don't spend the time, like it's not important.

So those are people who are clutter blind. But then there are people who are abundance lovers and simplicity lovers. And this is something I think that you see where like one person is says like, well, it clutter means a cluttered mind, and like they want bare counters and lots of room on the shelves and not much on the walls and kind of just you know, one little bud vase, and it's like lots of simplicity, and I

count myself in this camp much of the time. And then there are abundance lovers, and abundance lovers like profusion and choice and collections and buzz and a lot going on, and so they tend to like to be an environments where there is like maybe there are piles or there's like a bunch of stuff on a coffee table or a lot of stuff on the shelves, and simplicity lovers that can look like clutter, but to an abundance lover

what I consider to be kind of beautiful emptiness. They're like this looks sterile and stripped to me, like there's no life here, Like what's going on? And again, no one's right, no one's wrong. It's just a matter of preferences. And so if we have to share an environment, we need to figure it out. But it's not like I'm right, you're wrong, or you're right and I'm wrong. It's just like, Okay, I like it this way, you like it that way.

How do we proceed? Yeah, I'm so grateful that my partner Jenny now and I have an exact same feeling on clutter and environment. It's so good, such a luxury. We both do it, and so I just notice every one. So I think about it, was like, I don't think we've ever had a conversation about put your stuff away, you know, like from either side. I don't think there's ever been a single conversation. And that's kind of remarkable. Okay, and here's my second question, which is do you like

to leave for the airport at the same time? Roughly, because if you match on both of those, you have saved yourself pretty percent of sweetheart arguments. I think we're in the neighborhood. Okay, we cut it a little closer than she. Okay, Okay, I'm not like, let's get there twenty minutes and she's like, let's get there three hours and managing an hour, and she's like, we should have

an hour. Okay. I did discover a new area of difference between us, though, which is that she gets near half a tank of gas and she immediately wants to get gas, and I will drive the thing just to the very brink. It actually comes up more often than you would think, because we have been driving from Columbus to Atlanta every month for the last six years because we've had parents in both places that have needed care. So we encounter this a lot, like it's fine, let's

just keep going. She's like, no, we gotta stop. But luckily we kind of joke about it and it's not a not a big deal. You know, this would actually be kind of a funny list. Maybe I'll write a funny list like this where it's sort of like, not the big issues of being a couple, like how do you think about money and savings and parenthood and stuff like that, It's more like how much time do you

need to have at the airport? And yeah, I mean these funny little things that it's like they can, really though in a relationship, end up taking up a lot of space. How do you feel about laundry? Like does laundry need to be in a basket? Can laundry be on the floor? How long can laundry be on the floor before it goes into basket? You know this kind of thing you're talking about dirty laundry, Yeah, socks in the basket? In the basket? Well that's a clutter related one. Okay,

So this is fun. I bet there's like ten questions that come up disproportionately, they cause more arguments than they should given their importance to sort of the significant matters of a happy relationship in a happy life. It's funny. And then the other piece, of course, is that if the significant matters are well tended, it's easier to laugh about the little ones, whereas when the big things are a problem, everything becomes a problem. I've been in those

relationships where it's just like an excellent point. The airport thing is not about the airport thing. It's about this fundamental issue in our relationship that you're not listening to me exactly exactly. Yeah. Yeah, let's talk a little bit about There's a bunch of benefits of outer order that you list, and I'm going to go through a few of them. There's nine of them. We're not gonna have time to go through them all, but I'm going to pick a couple, and one of them is that outer

order creates a feeling of sanctuary. You say, I experience true leisure because I don't feel pressured to jump up

and deal with a mess. Yeah. What a lot of people say is that they would be sort of erratically kind of in their downtime, and yet they would feel this pressure to like get up and put things away, and you know, they don't feel comfortable in their own space, or they feel like they're either putting off things that they should be doing and that made them feel guilty, or they were doing those things and then they felt

resemble because they weren't getting the leisure time. And so when things are put away, you have that feeling of like, oh, this is a place that I can go to. I can be in my home and I have that feeling of rest, I have that feeling of kind of security. I have this feeling like this is a place where I can go to like recharge and refresh myself, and I don't feel like I'm just changing, you know, one set of obligations to another set of obligations with no

place to sort of relax and recharge. Being consistent with your habits is the engine that drives your transformation and growth. Think about it. You can't feed your good wolf one big meal a year and expect it to thrive. Consistent steady bits of food fuel a good, healthy wolf, but it's hard to create consistency. You might listen to this podcast on a Thursday feel really inspired, but then life takes over and by Saturday night you've forgotten all about it.

That's why I'm hosting a free live Q and a town hall zoom meeting on Thursday, February, where I'll be answering your questions about how to take what you know and turn it into what you consistently do. Had to one you feed dot net slash town hall to register for this free live session with me. During this town hall, you'll ask me your specific question and I'll answer it.

It's that simple. So if you would like my help creating some tools to deal with real life when it gets in the way of your best intentions, let me help you. If changing habits feels overwhelming, if you struggle to make time for things because life is so busy, if it's easy to get caught up with your to do list, you feel consistently behind and taking time for yourself feel selfish, then let's talk. The things we do consistently are more important than the things we do once

in a while. In this free town hall session, you'll ask me your questions and I'll help you find what works for you. How you might look at things differently and create this structure to help you do the thing you really want to do. And if you don't have a specific question, just come listen to the conversation. A little bit of something is better than a lot of nothing. Truth is, you can make a lot of progress by

doing just a little bit. To register for this free zoom session on February to one you feed dot net slash town hall. That's when you feed dot net slash town hall. I hope I get the chance to meet

you there. Hey, everyone, this is Jenny. One of my absolute favorite things is when we hear from listeners of the show, and something we hear quite often is that one of the biggest obstacles to feeding the Good Wolf is remembering because life is busy and we get caught up in routines and we're all on autopilots so much of the time. So to help with that, we've started sending a couple of text messages after each episode is released to listeners who sign up for them, and it's

something we're offering for free. A listener wrote us and said the message has caused me to pause, even if just for a moment, and help me to remember important bits of wisdom, bringing them to the forefront of my mind. Remembering is the hardest part, and the text messages are super helpful. So if you'd like to hear from us a few times a week via text, go to one you feed dot net slash text and sign up for free. You also say that outer order foster's peace within relationships.

We were just kind of hitting this right, Yes, you were where you know, I spend less time nagging at or arguing with other people. But what do you do if you and your partner, or your housemates or your children have very different feelings on outer order intercalm? As we've been talking about, this is just a very common

source of conflict. And I think the one thing that's important to remember is these are preferences because a lot of times people will say, well, I'm right, and I'm going to tell you all the reasons that I'm right. But the thing is somebody else can be like, well, I'm right, and I'm gonna tell you all the reasons I'm right, because the fact is, there really is no

right or wrong. It's a question of like where do people feel comfortable, And if you're sharing a space, you have to think about like, okay, well, how do we manage that so people feel comfortable. And I have to say somebody who's pretty tidy myself, I do have sympathy for the people who are saying like, look, I don't care if the bed is made. If you want to

make the bed, knock yourself out. But I don't see why I should spend my time and energy to make a bed when it just gets unmade the next night. And it's sort of like, right, if you don't care, there's no magic to it. And sometimes people want to be like, oh, but there is a magic to it. It's like, there's only a magic to it if you care. I deeply commit to making my bed. I make my bed in a hotel room on the day I check out.

I have to have a bed mate, but I recognize that that's my preference, and if somebody really doesn't want to do that, that's their preference. Right. There's no moral element to this, right, And there's no like, oh, you're more creative, you're more productive. There's an amazing book by

Mason Curry. I think it's called Creative Rituals anyway. He looks at the daily habits of like more than a hundred very very accomplished people, musicians, writers, artists, choreographers, sculptors, scientists, And what you see is that they're all over the place, like one person stays up late, one person gets up early, and one person drinks podcast, one person drinks coffee, and one works in a crowded studio and one works in isolation.

And so what you see is that they're just very good at getting what they need in order to do the work that they want to do. And so there is no moral ground, there's no magic to it. It feels like this is right because this is what feels right to me, but of course somebody else feels the other way. So you can think of things like maybe you say like, okay, these are the five things that really drive me bonkers. Can you agree to do these

five things, but not everything, but these five things? And then sometimes a person out of love will say, I will choose to do those things because I know that it's really important to you to feel comfortable in this space. But I'm not gonna do the five through fifteen things, because that's on you. But I will put my dishes in the dishwasher, I'll put my clothes in the basket, whatever, whatever it might be. Another thing is to kind of

have your own spaces. Like maybe if you have a big enough place, it's like, well, you've got an office, and if I see something of yours, I'm just gonna throw it in your office and close the door. And then if you want it to be messy, it's like, that's your mess, that's your space, and then you keep your stuff there. Or if like you've got a big project where there's a lot of pieces that are out, you're gonna do it in your space so I don't

have to look at that. We were talking earlier about convenience, and a lot of times when people are not good about keeping things orderly, it's because it's just a little bit too much trouble. And I mean a tiny little bit too much trouble. In my family, like people were just leaving their coats draped over chairs all the time, and I was just as bad as everybody else. So none of us were hanging up our coats. So then I thought, well, what if we had hooks instead of hangers.

And I also got rid of a lot of our coats that we weren't wearing them because it was so crowded in our coat closet. You really had to like exert your force to jam them in. So I cleaned them out so it's easier to hang things up, and I put in tons of hooks, and now people will hang up their coats because you just put it on a hook. So it's just that little bit of things.

Or like maybe the junk mail, you need to put it a little recycling thing right near where you bring in your mail, so you can just like put it there, and anything you need, you like put in the drawer so that it's out of sight and in safe keeping, and then you've gotten that done right away because it's just that much more convenient. Or you know people who have baskets that they put at the top of the

stairs at the bottom of the stairs. If you're living in a house with stairs where it's like anything that needs to go upstairs, you put it in the basket and then when you go up, you take it up. So there's little things that you can do if you feel like, well, the people in my house are maybe not opposed to this, they're just not very qual operative

about this. Also, I do find if you go through and you really look at clutter from your stuff, you're like, I want everybody else to be better about it, and they're not, because that's usually the complaint you hear is that, like, people are not orderly enough for me. If you really go through and really clear clutter, get rid of everything you don't use that doesn't work, that you don't you're like, I don't even know what this thing is. I don't know why this is in our house. Get rid of it.

I find that a lot of times people do do a better job because the more space there is to put things away and where it's more clear where things belong. Okay, if I hand you a hammer, where does that hammer go? You should know where a hammer goes. What about stamps? What about batteries? What about a ruler? What about a passport?

All these things they should have a place, And it's sort of people are just more inclined to put things away when they're like, this is where this thing goes, and it's not hard, Like that drawer when I open it will not like explode in my face because there's so much stuff jammed in there. If it's just like that's where it goes. So I think sometimes when people want things to be more orderly, they can't help that by doing what they can do within their own power,

and then sometimes peoper are more cooperative. But the fact is this is a place where people have very different levels of comfort and very different levels of commitment to the work that it takes to maintain order, and it can be frustrating when there's disagreement. So it's something to work through explicitly. Yeah, and I want to talk about some of those ways of creating more order because I think all those that you listed are so helpful. Like I am a hook guy, give me up, give me

a hanger. It's gonna be right right, Like particularly as you say, a hanger in a crowded closet. I mean, it's just amazing. It's like it's a three second difference. But again it's to our point, you know, it's that fundamental rule of behavior change, which is basically like, if you want to do more of something, make it as easy as possible to do it autely. And if you want to do less of something, make it as hard as possible. And little increments that make a big difference.

In my twenty one Strategies of Habit Changed, I talk about the twins drive energies of convenience and inconvenience, because you're exactly right. Like I've talked to people who sleep in their exercise clothes so they don't have to get up in the morning and change clothes. Are like people who keep their television remote control like in a separate room, so they have to like go get the remote control. But you know, as we're talking, I'm just realizing something

in my own life that I could do differently. When I was growing up. I grew up in the suburbs, so we had a big kitchen and we would just leave the dishwasher door open a lot of the time, and that made it very easy to put your dishes in the dishwasher. But now I live in New York City and we have a much smaller kitchen, so our dishwasher door is always closed because you know, our kitchen too small. And I'm like, I wonder if that's why I am much worse about putting away dishes now, because

you think, well, now Gretchen's have grown up. Of course she puts your dishes in the dishwasher. But I actually did a much better job when I was younger, And now I'm realizing why. It's because the dishwasher door was open. I mean, how little effort is that? And yet I thinking back on it, I think that probably explains why my habit has changed. You have a term in better than before that I think really speaks to this. I

love it. It's called ignition cost, and it's that any behavior has a little bit of extra energy needed at the very beginning. And again we're talking about very little bits of energy. Right, I gotta flip open the guitar case, I've got to put on my exercise clothes, right, But those little things make actually a big difference. And for whatever reason, there is something about going from zero to one that is, at least for me, way harder than then going on from one to ten. Well, you know,

and what's related to that? That surprised me, and I think it surprises a lot of people in kind of a bad way, which is like a lot of times when you start a new habit, there's the ignition cost, but there's also like, especially if you're starting kind of like a habit that you're really fired up about, there's kind of the energy of starting, and so maybe you start and then you stop and you think, well, that's okay if I stop, because I'll just start again, and

I found it really easy to start, but starting over is harder than starting the first time. I remember a friend who, like I, wanted to quit drinking, not because he thought he had a big problem, and he's just like, you know, I'm getting older. It's like interfering with my workout. He's like, just you know, it's not good for me anymore. And the first time he did it was super easy to cut way back on his drinking, and then he was like, man, he went back to his old habits.

He said, well, I'll just go back to it any time, But then when he did, it was much harder. And I think that's very, very often the case that's starting over is harder than starting. So I think once we start, once we pay that cost, we don't want to have to keep paying it. So once you start, you want to kind of try to really try to keep going if you possibly can agree. There's a lot of directions to go with that. I had your friends experienced times.

I don't know about a thousand, because at twenty four I was a heroin addict and I burned my life to the ground and I got sober, and I stayed sober about eight years and then after eight years. I'm not going to go into the whole long bit of it, but I ended up going out and drinking again. I never went back to heroin, but I started drinking. But that didn't work out either, and so I kind of had to come back into recovery. And the second time around, I just was like, how is this so much harder?

It was brutally harder. And I know a lot of people that are in my experience, you know, they've got a significant amount of time and they went back out or went back to the house and they never made it back. There is something about that that is really true. I think the other thing that starts to happen is particularly when we have started and stopped something a bunch

of times. Is that And I see this in in you know, coaching clients a lot is they get going with something, but the voice in their head is like, you're never gonna stick with this. You haven't stuck with it before, why is this time going to be different? And the first little slip, which everybody has a little slip, right, We're not perfect, the first little imperfection and their brain goes, see, I told you so. So it really is that start again,

cost can really be there. I think there's ways to mitigate it a little bit in really watching what we say to ourselves around it. But yeah, that's a real thing. Yeah. Well, and in the twenty one strategies, one is the strategy of safeguards, which is like, you know, you want to plan to fail. You want to think, well, you know, what if I go to this place, it's gonna be too hard, and if I stand by the dessert tray,

I'm gonna sleep. You know, you want to think about what are the safeguards that you can put into place, What if I travel, what if I get sick, what if I'm with my difficult relatives? You want to put in all the sefeguards. But then like, actually, the strategy that I found the most entertaining to study is the strategy of loophole spotting, which is looking for the loopholes that we use to let ourselves off the hook. Because there's so many just imaginative, creative examples of this, and

there's ten kinds of loophole. So there's like there's false choice loophole, which is like, well, I've been so busy doing that, I couldn't possibly do that, Like I'm so busy writing, there's no way I could go in for a doctor's check up. It's like, really, like, I think you could probably do both those things, or fake self actualization loophole when it's like you know you only live once, like you know I have to embrace life to the fullest.

It's like you can embrace life to the fullest and not have this, you know, this stale brownie in the break room or whatever. Um. But I think all of us have these loopholes running. And when most of us have a few that are like our go to favorites,

the lack of control loophole. I'm traveling, there's no way I could be expected to do X, y Z. And I think just by knowing them, you sometimes can be aware of how you're sort of looking for an opportunity to invoke a loophole to say, Okay, well, of course I would not be able to stick to my habit. And so I think when we're more aware of these loopholes, we can resist them because we're more consciously aware of them.

But at the same time, I mean to your point, one of the things that I found very interesting when I was in the study of habits is like, I think a lot of times when people do slip up, as you say, they think, well, if I'm really hard on myself, fairly talk down to myself, that's going to

kind of energize me to do even better. But what the research shows is that actually people who are more compassionate with themselves, who say things like well you know what I learned that less in the hard way, or like well that wasn't my best day, or well, you know, are more likely to read engage and so you really do want to go easier or something like we want to try really hard because the more we stick to something, the easier it's going to get. On the other hand,

so it sort of seems like attention. You want to say, like, I really don't want to slip up, but if I do slip up, I want to have that compassion for myself and so that I don't feel too discouraged, so that I don't feel like trying again. Yeah. I mean, there's so much great stuff in that book of yours about habits, because this is really actually pretty nuanced stuff.

You know, it sounds easy to be like, well always takes small steps, you know, which the answer is yes, a lot of the time, small steps are absolutely the right answer, but certainly not all the time. Or pick a specific time every day and do it that time

every day. Well sometimes depending on your life, but other times no. And so you know, knowing your life and the structure of your life and the type of person you are and what works for you is why sort of really thinking about these ideas for yourself is so important. I could not agree with you more. And I really think if people said, like, what is the biggest mistake people make with habits formation, I think you just put your finger right on it, which is thinking that there's

a magic tool that will work for everyone. There is no magic, one size fits all solution. We each have to say, like, well, what works for me, Like when am I at my most energetic and creative and productive? Because for one person they might work on their novel first thing in the warning, or for what another person they might work at it at ten o'clock at night. There's no one right way. People often say to me like, well, what's the best way to change the habit? And I'm like, well,

what's the best way to cook an egg? And people are like, well, I don't know. It depends how you like your eggs. I'm like, right, what's the best way to credit Habit depends on you. You pointed out, like pick the same time of day. Earlier, you mentioned my four tendencies framework. So that's the thing that explains a lot of differences that you see in how people effectively change their habits or like kind of do things generally

in life. And one of the things you see is some people really thrive on having something on the calendar, and some people absolutely turn away from that. It's counter productive. They don't like feeling trapped and chained by a calendar. That's how it makes them feel. They will resist that. And the idea like oh, pay for a class then you'll go, It's like that is not good advice for

those people. So you need to know yourself, like, oh yeah, if I pay for that class, I'm definitely gonna go, or like, if I pay for that class, I'm gonna be less likely to work out, And it's completely legitimate to feel like that way. A lot of people feel that way. So if you feel that way, it's not like, well, there's something wrong with you, or you should try harder, or like, oh, maybe i'll give you a gift of this class and now you'll have to go. It's like,

well I just wasted that money. You want to say, well, what kind of person am I? What works for me? If people are curious to know about the four tendencies, if they want to know what tendency they are, if they're an upholder a question or an abliger or a rebel, just kind of quiz dot Gretchen Reuben dot com and you'll get a little report that will tell you what you are and what to do with that information. It's

a lot of fun. Yeah, that framework is really a very interesting one, as well as the abstainer versus moderate aim work, which is a really interesting thing. It's interesting for me because in certain areas I have had to be an absolute abstainer, like drugs and alcohol, like just had to and other areas of my life I really am. I think I've grown into being a moderator and really being able to find my way through that, and so I really think it just for me, it wasn't as clear.

I don't remember whether you and I talked about this last time. It's a question that I would love to ask, is do you see people potentially transformed through the course of their life from one to the other. Because when I was younger, I had a whole lot more of an extreme streak, right it was yes or no, black or white, zero or hundred. And as I've gotten older, it's not just age. I actually think a lot of it in my cases growth, I've become a lot more

nuanced in many many things. The risk of trying to apply that to drugs and alcohol is too high for me. There's just no possible reason that that's a good idea. But I've been able to find it in other areas to some degree for people, so they know what we're talking about with the standard moderator. So standard moderator. This is a strategy, the strategy of staining that works for

some people in some context, but not for everyone. So the strategy of standard works for people who find that they're kind of all or nothing, that they can have none or they can have a lot, but if they start, they want to go all the way. So like for me, it's sweet. So let's put aside kind of things like drugs, alcohol, cigarettes. I think where a lot of people find like what is it? One is too many? And are what what's the phrase? Yeah? One is too many. A thousand's never enough.

It's very hard to be a moderate Matthews right, right, exactly. So let's put those aside. But let's talk about things like sweets, chips. You know wine, well, I guess wine is alcohol, So let's talk about things like sweets and chips. So for some people, they're ubstainards. And it's like, so I can have no oreos very easily, or I can have like a sleeve of oreos, but I can't have one oreo and easily stopped. I can't have half a

dish of ice cream, I can't have one brownie. But but on the other hand, like I can have half a glass of wine because I don't really care about one. But then there are people who are moderators, and moderators get kind of panicky and rebellious if they're told that they can never have something. So these are the people who are, like, I'm just gonna keep a bar of fine chocolate in my desk drawer and every other day or so, I'll have one square of fine chocolate and

that's all I need see for me. If that was like, I would be eat that thing at eight am, because otherwise I would just spend my whole day thinking about when am I gonna eat the rest of that chocolate bar. I think that people are in mix depending on like what they find truly tempting. And I just found out that for me, it was much easier just to have none.

And I think in culture we accept that for certain things you have to abstain, like you were saying, drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, but then for other things people are sort of like, well, follow the twenty rule and you don't want to, like say that any food is off the table. And I'm like, you know what, for me, it's just easier to have nute. Like I have a tremendous, tremendous sweet tooth, I find it really distracting and boring to deal with it. If I just never have sugar, I just never think about

it and it just goes away. And I just find that, to me is a much more pleasant way to live. And I found that to be true of a lot of people. But then moderators feel very different about it. But to your larger point about do these things change over time, I definitely think with time and experience, like what you say with the nuance, I think we do understand more of how other people might see the world.

I also think that maybe things that were once strongly tempting are less tempting, and so maybe it's easier to be a moderator because you don't have that tremendous feeling of just wanting more and more and more and more and more, which is what stainerds. Is often very exhausting to like deal with that more and more and more and more more feeling. Um, if you feel like that's okay, I think over time maybe that that also kicks in.

But you're exactly right. We all would hope that time and experience would teach us to have a larger view. The phrase that's always resonated with me is that there is a beautiful clarity to zero. You know, like it's just not a lot to figure out there, right, Whereas to your point when when it's when it is like, well you know, okay, I'm only going to do that on special occasions. Well what's a special occasion? And you know, all of a sudden, it's like, well, you know, Sam

got a B plus on his paper at school. It's a special occasion. Right, Like I will say this if you're a person were like basically I want to be an abstainer, but like I am one of these super low carb people, like I really don't eat curbs except for like vegetables and nuts, And most people don't want to be abstainers the way I am an abstainer, and a way that you can be an abstainer most of

the time and like manage it. I think like the special occasion when you're talking about okay, Bobby gotta be plus, that's kind of an ad hoc loophole. You're okay, lack of control or you know, moral licensing or however you want to do it, whatever kind of loophole you're invoking, you're kind of invoking it on the spot. So if you're like I want to abstain but not all the time, how do I manage that? You can do planned exceptions.

How you do a planned exception, You think about it in advance, you decide in advance how you're gonna behave, you do it in the moment, and you look back on it with pleasure. That's how a planned exception works. So planned exception is like I'm going to Paris with my husband for my anniversary. On our anniversary night, We're going to go to this amazing restaurant. We're gonna have like their most glorious dessert. I can't wait. I do it. In the moment, I look back and I'm like, that

was a wonderful moment. But that doesn't mean like now I'm like doing that all the time because I end it. And so that's when we feel like we're staying in control of ourselves, because what happens a lot of times is people are like, Oh, I'm walking into my favorite dinner. Oh they have the best Jeremy's two in the world. Oh my gosh, it's like two for one night. How

can I not take advantage of this? Like life's too short not to eat a piece of Teremans too, And then you feel bad later because you're like, I really didn't want that. I've had that a thousand times. It's really not that good. But just in the moment, I convinced myself, I don't look back on it with pleasure. So the planned exception, the way that you know that it's a plant exception is that you're like, I feel good about it because I'm basically I'm creating the life

I want. You know, what we do most days matters more than what we do once in a while and in most days you're abstaining if that's what works for you. Again, this doesn't work for everybody, but it works, you know for some people. Then you can feel good about it. And you also want to say, like it's a holiday. This isn't like the holiday season. Is my plant exception, which is like six weeks it's like, you know, Thanksgiving dinner,

and like what does that look like. It's like, I'm going to basically do it, but a and have you know, one piece of pie or whatever. To me, it's not Thanksgiving if I don't need pumpkin pie. So I'm going to have a piece of pumpkin pie and I can't wait, and I'll do it and I'll look back on it with pleasure. It doesn't extend for more than a month. Yeah, there's that idea of just clarity on what it is.

You know, with coaching clients in the past, I've said like, Okay, you're getting ready to go on vacation, so let's talk about vacation. Don't just roll into vacation with the assumption that you're going to keep the habits that you have at home, because it's very possible you're simply not going to. It would be much better for your long term adherence to these habits for you to decide ahead of time either ay, I'm going to be I'm not going to, or see, I'm going to make some amendments and decide

that ahead of time. Then to roll yourself into a situation that's beyond your capacity to handle and decide in that moment that you're going to go against what you said you were going to do. The proactive approach is way better. And so I think it is thinking ahead and clarity, and I think that phrase planned exception is a good word for it, or a good phrase. Now

it's the strategy of safeguards. It's like thinking, like, yeah, in the cold moment of today, how am I going to behave in like the excitement of like whatever I have coming up? Absolutely makes a huge difference. Yeah. I heard somebody say something recently that really resonated with me, and it was don't plan to do something from your highest moment of energy for when you're going to be in a lower moment of energy advice. It's sort of

the don't go to the grocery store when you're hungry thing. Right, So don't take your like you've got ten minutes a day where you're like peak energy and be like, all right, I'm going to apply that to every moment of my life. You know, or don't plan that at three pm you're going to do something that's really taxing when you know at three pm you always feel tired. It's sort of really thinking about almost future self, Like what's myself going

to be like in that moment? I need to take that into account instead of assuming that how I feel as I'm planning is the me that's going to keep showing up. One of the things I do to accomplish that is I think about treating myself like a toddler. I'm like, look, you don't take risks with a toddler. You don't let a toddler stay up too late day after day. You don't let a toddler get too hot or too cold. You don't let a toddler get too hungry or tooth thirsty. Like you make sure that that

toddler is in peak form because you will pay. And I'm like, Gretchen, is that toddler? And I'm like, I have to get enough sleep. I can't let myself get too hungry. I get so angry I can't behave myself. I'm one of these people who get super cold, like I wear a ridiculous amount of clothing because you know, I'm like, that's just the realistic thing. And if everything's at its best and you're thinking like, oh, well, this is gonna be the way it is all the time,

it's just very unrealistic. You have to plan for what you're going to feel like at those low moments, and then also think about, Okay, well, how do I get the circumstances to keep me from getting into that state where I know it's going to be very very hard to manage myself because I'm exhausted or overwhelmed or hungry or whatever it might be. So I'm going to jump us back to our order inter Calm and talk about their six steps that you talk about, make choices, create order.

Maybe it's five steps, make choices, create order, know yourself and others, cultivate helpful habits, and add beauty. I want to talk about the first one for a moment, which is make choices. And first I'll let you say what you mean by make choices, and then I have an actual specific question in that area. Well, this is one of the things that's hard about clearing clutters. You have to make choices. You have to think like, well, do I need both these bowls or just one of these bowls?

And it like do I wear all three of these sweaters? Are just one of these sweaters? And are we ever going to use this tennis racket again? You really have to decide what you're gonna do with things, and this can be very hard a lot of times, like paper clutter, the decision making around paper clutter can be very overwhelming, but it's really an essential part and I think a

lot of reasons. One of the big reasons we accumulate clutter is that it's like, especially if you live in a place where you can just like throw it in the basement, You're like, it's just easier to keep it than to make the decision of like do I need to keep this or how long should I keep this? And so you're just like, I'll just keep it, and then it mounts up and then you've got like a whole big bunch of stuff to deal with, and then that feels like, well, what am I going to do

with this big bunch of stuff? So you just let it get bigger. Um, So it's making choices. There's an emotional labor element. I had a coaching client at one point, and you know, her thing was like I need to

really clean out my space and get organized. And you know, at the first it was just like, all right, well, we're going to break it down into little steps and we're going normal run of the mill stuff, right, But very quickly realized was that for her getting rid of nearly anything was like existential dread, and so there was this emotional element to it. I mean, there's the old maricon, no question of does this thing spark joy in you?

Which I think you've had a different phrasing than that, and that's not a phrasing that really works for me. But what are some ways of thinking about making those choices? And what do people do if they find like it's just really hard for them to let go of anything. Well, I think that the first thing to do is to

recognize that this is a very natural human inclination. I think sometimes people are like embraced minimalism, get rid of everything, like you'll be happier with list stuff, and that's just not the common experience of mankind. In my observation, and so I think it's to recognize that we do feel an emotional attachment to our possessions. They remind us of the people and activities and places that we love. They allow us to project our identity into our environment, and

so they're very precious to us. So when I'm talking to people who have that very intense emotional reaction, one is to say, like, if it's to hold onto memories, which often it is, your possessions will actually serve you better in that kind of memory provoking purpose if there are few and they're curated. So if you have three boxes of all your kids school work from you know, kindergarten through fifth grade, you're never going to go through it because it's too much stuff and it's all basically

the same. But if you pick a few items and maybe you frame one piece of art and put it on the wall where you see it, and you create like a thin folder of the best stuff, the most representative stuff, you can really manage that and enjoy that as a memento. So you're really crystallizing the memory in a few kind of iconic things, and so they're gonna do that work for you better. When there's fewer of them,

and they're highly curated. So for people who are like I need to hold on the memories, you're like, yes, you can pick a few very representative things, and then maybe you take a picture of a lot of the other things, so you can still get that memory prompt if you want. But you don't need this stuff. Another thing that many people feel like, it's all these things are precious to me because they belong to someone who is precious to me. So how can I get rid

of any of it? Because it's like getting rid of the person who I love. You don't need any of that stuff to remember that person, but you would like to have something to remember that person. Okay, so what are you going to choose? And I went through this when my grandfather died, I was like, Okay, I could pick his armchair that he loved to sit in. I could pick the grandfather clock that he loved. I could pick his desk that I love to sit at that

he used every day. Or you can pick his pocket watch because he was an engineer on the Uni Pacific Railroad, so the pocket watch was a very big deal. Well, I picked the pocket watch because I could put a pocket watch on the shelf where it's like, what do I do with the armchair and the desk and or their grandfather clock. I don't want those big things, but are the one thing and that's enough because that holds

all that memory in it. And so again it's like, well, you have all this stuff, can you pick a few things that are like the most representive, the most rich in emotions, and then let go of all the other things and remember those things can go and live a long and happy life with somebody who will actually use them, because if you're not using them, they're just sitting there wasted. Let them out into the world to do their work, because you have the thing that's going to help you.

I think a lot of times people when they have this emotion, the people around them are like no, no, no, no, no, that doesn't count, and then they feel like they have

to hang on all the tighter. Whereas if you say, like, oh, this is completely understandable, so much respect for that feeling, how do we work with that and really help you engage in that way because a lot of times when you have fewer things, you really do engage with them more because they're just like see them and interact with them so much more easily than when you're overwhelmed by them.

So I think so as it takes like a couple rounds, but I have found it often going through this, people are able to go like, well, I can go from fifty to ten, I can go from ten to five, I can go to five to three, and they're not going to GiB below three maybe, but that's okay three Managel. Yeah, Well, that point's a really good when it's sort of the possessions version of the old business cliche. If everything is a priority, nothing's approach. That's a perfect analogy. Fifty things

are a priority in essence, none of them are. You just get lost in the noise. And so the same thing as you were saying that, I was just thinking about like a lot of memory things that I have. They're just I need to probably go through and parse

those things. Luckily, I we have made ourselves sort of stay in a small relative, a small two bedroom apartment for the last number of years, which it's the time of the year December necessitates a December purging, you know, And so it has really kept me fairly disciplined because I'm like, I do not want to crack the door on a storage unit. I do not want to crack the door on storage Like, well, I had a house

before this. It was exactly like you described. I had enough space to be like, well, just I don't know, yeah, I don't know if we want it, I don't know what we're gonna do with it. Put it down there, and because it's hard to decide, and then it grows and grows and it just becomes like let meness never go down there if I don't, if I don't have to, because it's so overwhelming. But this two bedroom is enforced a certain discipline that has actually been really good. Well,

it's interesting because I had not thought of this. It's kind of a version of what you're talking about. A couple of people have told me how they will use an artificial space constraint as a way to manage this, because it's sort of like even if you have like two giant boxes. Okay, let's say, like my children have what they call their men random boxes, which I don't know what they call them that, but it's like you can fill your memorandom box, but everything has to fit

in there. So if you want to put more in, something has to come out, So it's constantly having to use the priority. Same thing. If you've got this apartment, it's like, if it doesn't fit in the apartment, something's gotta go. You either can't bring it in or something's gotta like make room for it. And so some people

do this, like with Christmas decorations. It's like I have so many boxes for Christmas decorations, and if something comes in, something has to go because I'm not going to start another box, or I'm only going to keep what I can store on this top shelf of a closet, and if it doesn't fit, something's got to go. So sometimes there are ways you can do it through space constraints as well. There was another idea the third step is

to sort of know yourself and others. So we're talking about a little of this right knowing what it's important to you. But there was an idea that you know, are you clinging to an outdated identity? So we don't want to relinquish an identity, so we cling to those possessions.

So a little bit more about that, Well, I've got a ukulele, uh some you know, like I was like I'm gonna learn to play the ukulele, and it's everybody says how fun it is and how easy it is, and they're so cheerful, and it's like, yeah, I'm not gonna learn how to play the ukulele. I started. It's like it might be easier than learning to play the guitar, but is not like that easy? And do I still have that ukulele? Yes? I do, because it's it's this fantasy self that I had, that like of myself like

picking up an instrument. No, I'm not going to That is the fantasy self. Or I almost bought a set of like Linnen cocktail napkins on sale because I was like, oh, they're so fun and they're so beautiful. But I'm like, who am I kidding? You know, I narrowly escape fineness because I'm totally not the kind of person who would use Lennon. I don't even know how to use Linnen cocktail napkans practically. So sometimes it's the fantasy self. So it can be hard to look of those things because

it's letting go of the fantasy. The fantasy of myself is playing the ukulele, or it can also be the fantasy of someone you once were like the friend of mine who had like so many tennis rackets and they took up so much space and she never really used them. But because she had played tennis in college, it was a really important asked identity for her, and so she had to acknowledge that her identity had moved forward and she was no longer the kind of person who needed

so many tennis rackets. And so sometimes it's the fantasy self in the future, or maybe we're sort of mourning the loss of a self that we were in the past, and this can be very painful, and so sometimes I think we hang onto those objects because we still want to hang onto the idea that maybe one day will be the kind of person who will learn to play the ukulele. And it's like that doesn't seem likely, and if it did happen, I could get another ukulele, but

it doesn't seem very likely. It's funny that you brought up those two examples, because just yesterday I was opening up the trunk of my car and I saw two tennis rackets, and it's probably been three years now. I would guess my partner Ginny and I decided, largely at my prompting that learning to play tennis together would be

a good idea I have. I have joked on the show before, and she knows that I joke about it, that the fact that our first tennis list and ended with her in tears was an indication that this was not a hobby that was going to stick. But those tennis rackets are still there, and it's interesting because what I came to yesterday was I am not giving up on wanting to learn to play tennis. However, there is

no reason to keep carding these rackets around. It's not like they are five thousand dollar rackets, right, Like they're crappy rackets. Go by a new and if you do take it up, because it's still it's on my list of things that you carry from year to year, but you're not ready to abandon tennis is on mine. Maybe you play pickle ball as a couple, because it seems like pickleball is the thing that people do, and then if you're interested in tennis, you take tennis lessons on

your own. Tennis is definitely if it's gonna happen, it's gonna be me. I've I've accepted that, but I would love to play pickle ball, either with or without her, So any that you brought up tennis, because literally, just yesterday I had this this exact conversation. I looked at them, and as I was walking up the stairs, I was like, all right, I'm not ready to give up on this yet.

I still think it's a good hobby for me. And I don't need to keep these tennis rackets in my trunk forever because they just taking up space and I'm not using them now. And that's a perfect example of kind of like the evolving self and how the possessions can kind of like prompt you to new realizations because like looking at them, you you sort of went through the thing being like, you know what, this isn't gonna

be something that we're going to do together. It's something that I'm going to do in my own and that's okay, but it would still be fun to do something together. Maybe we'll try pickleball. And the kind of the tennis rackets sort of the catalyst of that realization. But if you just ignored them and drove them around for three years, you might not be prompted to like move forward and to realize like, oh well, maybe twenty three is the time when I'm going to take the tennis lessons or

you're sort of alerted to it. So in some ways our possessions can help us to realize this kind of the evolving self. But we have to pay attention and not just like let all this stuff blend into the wallpaper so that we're weighted down by all these things and we're not seeing how to take the lessons that they carry forward with us. Yeah, we're near the end

of time. But I wanted to maybe end on a question that I think is a really great question, whether we're talking about possessions or really anything else, and it is you say, when trying to make a tough choice, challenge yourself, choose the bigger life. Say a little bit more about that, because I think that is such a great, great question. I think I've got slightly different versions of it, but talk about that because I think that's a great

place for us to wrap up. Well. The way that I came to this was I don't know about you, but I will often have a situation where it's like the pros and cons of making a decision seem perfectly balanced, And I've talked to people where it's like, should we move the big city with more opportunities, or should we stay in our town where we have family to support us.

It's like that's an apple in an orange. And you could do the pros and cons over and over, and sometimes when you say we'll choose the bigger life, it's instantly clear which one is the bigger life. Um in a way that is not clear when you're doing the pros and cons. And the fact is people would have different decisions about what the bigger life is. So, for instance, in my family, my daughters really really wanted to get a dog. My husband was like, yeah, we can get

a dog if everyone wants to. Who wasn't like really weighing in? And I really did not want to get a dog. I didn't want the hassle, basically. So it was like the pros and the cons and then this and then that and all these car arguments, and then I was like, well, choose the bigger life. And in a second I knew that the bigger life from our family was to get a dog. And we got a dog, and we love a dog, and it's absolutely the bigger life and it's absolutely the right choice. But I can

imagine that for somebody else. They could be like, we'll choose the bigger life. For me, at least at this stage, is like it's a lot of money that I don't have. I really am valuing my freedom, and if I have a dog, I'm gonna have to like worry about, like what's going to happen to the dog when I'm at at home. I feel like it's a lot of responsibility, and I'm in a place where like I feel like I'm barely hanging on. I don't want to take responsibility

for something else. I mean, so for them, they might be like, choose the bigger life, because the bigger life for me is like not having this responsibility, which you know, a dog is a big responsibility. But they choose the bigger life kind of instantly. I think sheds a completely different light on something that might feel like a decision that feels impossible, and and different people answer it from

their own perspectives. I cannot say for everyone, my choice is the bigger life, because people would bring their own values, situation circumstances to that. Yeah, it's funny because Jenny and I have two dogs. One of them is probably about to pass. I said, you know, my inclination is to just get another dog. I love dogs. But we started talking about like, but we've been talking about for a

number of years now. Her mom just passed from Alzheimer's, and my mom we're going to get relocated to where my sister is, probably because we've been like, we want to go spend six months here, six months there, six months. They're like, I have the freedom to do it, and you know, I have been wanting to do it, but

things have stood in the way. And so for us, the bigger life in that particular question was I don't think a dog is the right idea right now, Like we've got one, she travels well, But the bigger life for us is six months in Lisbon, six months in saying f today, but in three years, that may be a radically different formulation on the exact same question exactly. And I think that's a really helpful that you remember.

It's like, this is a particular season of life, and sometimes things are not suited to a particular season of life. But that doesn't mean that you've been making this decision for always. And you know, certain things come into the foreground and certain things go into the background. As we go through but right, you're like, look, I have to quarantine a dog. I mean, I gotta air travel a dog. Like that's a lot, and it's be a lot for

the dog too. So that's a perfect example of how even someone who loves dogs might think like, not right now, Yes, I do want another dog. There's no doubt about. Okay, you got a dog in your future. I've got a dog in my future, Yes, I do, absolutely. What kind of dog do you have? I have a cockapoo named Barnaby. Oh, Barnaby, I assume it's a he's he sounds delightful. What kind

of dogs do you have? We have a Boston Terrier name Beans, and she's the one who is I mean, I actually thought, like, first week in December, it's time for her. And the minute I make that decision and she stages a mini rally, I'm like, oh for crying out loud. And the other is a sort of a fox Terrier slash Chihuahua um little girl named Lola who's just such a sweet dog. So she's the kind of dog you can absolutely travel. She's small, and she's just so well behaved and so chill, and so yeah, those

are our dogs. Yeah, alright, well, Gretchen, thank you so much for coming on. It's always a pleasure to talk to you. And well links in the show notes to where people can find your different things, certainly your podcast. We've talked about it a couple of times. It's a wonderful show, so listeners, I would highly encourage you to check that out. And thank you Gretchen. Thank you always such a pleasure of talking. We're interested in all the same things. I feel like we could talk all day.

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