How to Find Hope and Kinship with Father Greg Boyle and Fabian Devora

you are what you think, ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life

worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Gregory Boyle, an American jesuit priest and the founder of Homeboy Industries in Los Angeles, which is the largest gang intervention, rehabilitation and re entry program in the world. He's received the California Peace Prize and has been inducted

into the California Hall of Fame. I've hoped that Greg Boyle could be on the show for a long time because he is the acclaimed author of two incredible books, Tattoos on the Heart and Barking to the Choir, and now has his third book with our second guest on this episode, artist Fabian Deborah, called Forgive Everyone Everything. This episode is present it in two parts, so I'll be back to introduce Fabian with more detail later in the show. Hi,

father Greg, Welcome to the show. Thank you, it's great to have you on. We're gonna be talking about your latest book, which is called Forgive Everyone Everything. But before we get into that, let's start like we always do with the Parable and the Parable. There's a grandparent talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle.

One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and thinks about it for a second, looks up at their grandparents, says, well, which one wins, and the grandparents says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work

that you do. Well. Certainly, you know you want to have part of your practice to be connected and anchored in your true self and loving. But things like hate, tred, and greed and all those things are really signs of someone not being well. And so it's more about health than hate. It's more about healing, you know, not to demonize, but we kind of name things incorrectly. So I think it's important to be able to get to a place

where we understand, get underneath things. You know, a lot of times people will say the cruelty is the point, and I would say, no, the cruelty points to something, It indicates something, It indicates that something needs healing. So you know, you don't overturn hate, you treat it to heal it. On the one hand, I get it, you know, because part of your own practice is to stay anchored in the fact that kindness is the only non delusional

response to everything. So you want to be kind, kind, kind, and when you are engaged in other delusional things like rage and anger and righteousness and all that kind of stuff, self righteousness, it's an indicator that one is not as healthy as you would hope to be. So it's a good parable. I've always like that one. Yeah, it reminds me of the phrase from Dr Gabor Mate, who says,

don't ask why the addiction, ask why the pain. You know, if people are acting in a way, or even ourselves, if we're acting in a way that appears to be you know, any of those sort of greed and hatred and anger is to sort of get, as you say, what's going on here? What might be causing this to come up in me? Yeah, the homies always talk about finding the thorn underneath, So if it's about the thorn underneath,

you're not exactly being toppled by bad behavior. So here at home, boy, we don't want to create a community of those who are behaving. Well, you know, it's a it's a community of beloved belonging, not beloved behaving. And so do you want to get underneath and say, well, what languages that violence speaking? But we're so in love with the narrative that says we're gonna address these things head on. But they're not about head on, they're about underneath.

So I learned that a long time ago when people wanted to address gang violence, which is why we mass incarceration. But gang violence is about a lethal absence of hope. So how about we delivered hope to folks for whom hope was foreign. I was wondering if we could start off by having you tell a story that's in the book about Cisco and George, because I think it really speaks to so much of the work that you do and how you have to really hold a lot at the same time in order to function in the world

that you're in. Yes, a homie was killed and he was there in the middle of the streets with his pregnant lady who was rocking him by the time I got there, and the cops were trying to pull her away from his body. He was killed not far from his home, and I remember the next day I had to go do a baptism at a probation camp but detention facility. His real name was Gabriel, and I had

to baptize him. And after I baptized him, I had to walk him outside and set him down on a bench and tell him that his brother had been killed the night before. And this kid waited for me, you know, to baptize him. And there was something about pouring water over his head and anointing his forehead with oil, and what is it that you asked the church to do it his baptism? And there was something kind of efficacious about it at all. I guess I expected him to flail,

but he didn't. He cried, but he had been already softened it into a corner where he was able to put depth in its place. Feel the grief, for sure, but not have to go to a place of vengeance or retaliation. He just let the pain in and then he moved on. Yeah. So you talk about hope a lot, and I was wondering if we could share a little bit about how we stay with hope. You write in the book that in the monastic tradition, the highest form of sanctity is to live in hell and not lose hope.

And that sounds deeply admirable. It also sounds deeply difficult. How do you hang on to hope in the mid stuff when you are or your community is walking through hell. Well, the problem comes sometimes when we're really thinking about results and success and evidence based outcomes, when our focuses on how will things turn out? And that's not a good recipe for staying hopeful. So our hope is in our being faithful. So you know, Mother Teresa says, we're not

called to be successful, we're called to be faithful. So you want to find the fidelity to a certain approach to loving without measure and without regret. And if you can find that place, then outcomes don't really matter. It doesn't matter how things turn out because you've been anchored in a methodology and a tenderness in a way of proceeding that you believe in, that you're dedicated to. But

I think people align their hope with outcomes. This didn't turn out well, and now I don't feel hopeful, and I think it's a bad business. It's why people burn out because it's a them and they try to save, rescue and fix and that's a bad business, I think. But instead you want to be able to just love being loving, and then that's eternally replenishing, and then you're always anchored in the present moment, delighting in the person in front of you. It's not hard to do, it's

hard to remember to do it. And that's kind of the key in recovery. They say one day at a time, and I think that's way too long. It's really one breath. With every breath, you delight in your kind and it's hard to remember to do that. But once you do it, it's where the joy is. That's why you keep coming

back to it. Yeah, I've heard you talk about being addicted to I think you call it once and for allness, as if we're going to do one thing or we're going to have one outcome and then everything is solved and from there on out it's clear sailing. And that's not the way any of this really works. Yeah. Well, I think part of it is we think everything is once and for all, you know, like in our prayer in the morning, that we pray and then we're good

to go for the day. Then we're surprised that the two hours in you're annoyed at everybody you know so so much for that, you know, or any decision you make is kind of once and for all, and it isn't. Again, I always connected to breathing. It's like you cherish with every breath. It's exceedingly hard to remember to do it. But that's why you call it a practice. You work at it. I think that's true about anything. You know. People think faith or I'm saved, and I go, no,

I don't think it works that way. I think, you know, you have to somehow nurture it and care for it and tend to it and make sure that it's a flame that stays bright and alive. Yeah, I'm a recovering heroin addict. And you know, if you're going to make the movie of my life, there's a scene where I made a big decision, right. Okay, that was the moment where his whole life pivoted, right, But there were a

thousand small decisions before that that led me there. And there have been thousands and thousands and thousands of little decisions since and that have kept me sober. It doesn't make a great movie, but that's the reality of how

we change absolutely. And then it's why recovery is such a tentative thing, you know, And I applaud you, and I think it's really hard, you know, somehow, that's why people stay connected to the meetings, to a sponsor you know, and trying to kind of watch people, places and things and all the stuff that can kind of in a heartbeat bring it down again, and so it's important. Yeah, So in your work, I'm certain that you have seen many,

many people transform their lives. And I don't even wonder if I want to use the word get better, but let's use the word you used earlier, get healthier. So you've seen a lot of that, and then I'm sure you've also seen lots and lots of people who were offered that opportunity that for whatever reason, we're unable or

unwilling to take it. I'm curious if you have any theories about why some people are able to make these sort of big changes and others aren't, because it's been a mystery to me my whole time in recovery, Like why am I sober but so many people I know are dead? And I don't think it's because I'm better, right, So there's there's some mysterious stuff going on. I'm curious

what you've concluded after watching that for years. You know, I think the homie the other days said, you know, life is removing the blindfold, which I think is excellent. But the question is what do you see once the blindfold is removed. It's not the error of your ways, it's not you are a bad person. What you see is unshakable goodness. That's your essential truth, and then you become that truth you and have that truth. But blindfolds

are tricky because I can't force them off. Somebody. Somebody has to say, oh, this is a blindfold, and then we'll reach back to the knot and untie it. So no amount of me wanting that guy to have a life will ever be the same as that guy wanting to have one. You know, I always say ours is a god who waits, and who am I not to wait? And in recovery they say it takes what it takes. In gang recovery, it's not any different. It's you know, it can be whatever, the birth of a son, the

death of a friend, along stretch in prison. It takes what it takes. And you and I both know people who you know did twenty rehabs until it took. And it had nothing to do with oh I finally landed at a good rehab. No, it was when you're ready, it'll take. But you have to be ready. So you know, we don't force anybody to walk through our doors. But once they walk through our doors, you know, it's um ticker tape parade and red carpet. But they're the only

ones who can make that move. And it's interesting, you know, because Homeboy is exactly like an a a meeting. There's somebody who's twenty years sober, somebody who's twenty minutes ober, and somebody who's drunk, but they're there that has the feel of it, young and old, and people who are

at different places of their own growth. The ones that are always sort of the most heartbreaking for me are the people who, at least in recovery, they come to recovery, they make what looks to be a really good effort at it, and it takes for a while, but then it doesn't. For me, that's always harder to watch than somebody who just simply won't even see it in the first place. It's like, you felt the goodness, I saw you light up, I saw you come alive, And those

are always the ones that kind of are hard for me. Yeah, I think you're absolutely right, and I think it's excruciating because you know, all have moms come in here and say my son is smoking math and I need to help my So where is he? Oh, he's at home asleep, And I go, boy, I know, if you could check into a rehab for him, you would have been had done it, you know, But it just doesn't work that way. It's tough because a lot of it has all sorts

of multipliers around it, you know. So it's dual diagnosis, and it's hard, and it's like they're self medicating and they have an underlying something. It's hard to do, but I don't know anything better. Been a community that cherishes, that's the context. That's the environment in which people can

be transformed. I have never transformed anybody, but transformation has happened here, you know, because there's a kind of the contours of the place really exceptional, and they hold people and people feel safe and seen and then cherished, and there's nothing better. That's how you get to some kind of flourishing joy that nobody can take from you. Yeah, you've said before that in the end, all great spirituality is about what to do with our pain? Can you

elaborate on that a little bit? Well, you know, the highest form of spiritual maturity is tenderness, and so it's how we can kind of approach our pain, you know, and the Buddhists would talk about the source of our pain is really clinging. So how do we get to a place of freedom, how do we have a light grasp on life? Saying Ignatius of Loyola would talk about he calls it in different it's really a freedom that

you know, praise or blame, it's all the same. You know, hungry or well fed, same thing, abundance or scarcity, it's the same. And so you want to have that equanimity where you see that things are the same and you don't claim to things turning out the way they do. And then then you're loving. You know, you may kind of begin with service, and then maybe you become kind of other centered, and then maybe you become love centered. But the goal is to love being loving. That's where

the joy is. So you want to arrive at that place so that you can somehow really inhabit the truth of who you are. And no bullet can pierce that, and no four prison walls can keep that out. So that's where you want to end up. And so you just used a couple of words in close proximity there that I think are interesting. One is equanimity, right, which is seen as a virtue. Right, you use the word indifference,

which we could say is part of the problem. I know you were talking about a particular type of indifference. The difference is kind of a spiritual concept, which mainly is about freedom. It doesn't mean you don't care about somebody. Yeah, And so my question is how do you have that deep love and also maintain some sort of equanimity. Is it that you learn to love without becoming attached. And

I'm not speaking about romantic relationships here. I'm more speaking about the people that you work with that become close to your heart. I just think there's something about having a light grasp on things and in every aspect of your life, you know, in terms of as I said earlier about outcomes and how do things turn out? And people burn out not because they're hyper compassionate. It's because they've allowed it to become about them, so they go to the margins to make a difference rather than go

to the margins to be made different. And that's why people burn out. But we have this notion of compassion fatigue and oh my gosh, you us are so giving and you're so loving and you're so compassionate. Well, I go, no, you've allowed it to become about you. It can't be about you. But if you go to the margins to receive people and to allow your heart to be altered and to be reached by people at the margins, the widow, orphan, and stranger. If you go to the margins to be

impacted by those folks, then it's about us. It's not about you anymore. That's the goal services the hallway. But kinship is the ballroom. That's where we've had it, a place of connection where there is no us in them, and you obliterate once and for all the illusion those separation, that there's distance between us. We want to bridge the distance. I love what you just said. Their services the hallway. Kinship is the ballroom for me, I would say, that's

God's dream come true. How do you get to the ballroom where we're so united? Say more about kinship. That's a word that shows up a lot in your writing for people who that's a term that they don't really fully understand. Talk about what it means to you and why you think it's so important. Well, Jesus would say that you maybe one as the hope, and it's about our union with each other. You know, in faith terms, it's not about God and hoping that you'll praise God.

You know, the hope, the dream is that you'd be one. So kinschip is like the Kingdom of God, but kinchip is where we're kin. It's funny the early Christians used to greet each other with a big, old, fat, wet kiss on the lips, and I'm not recommending it, but I'm just saying that, you know, that's what they did, and the reason they did it was very intentional that they kissed each other on the lips, because you only did that with your blood relatives. It was a way

of saying, we're kin. And it's kind of a beautiful image because that's the goal. The goal is not to get to heaven. The goal is to create a community of beloved belonging and to imagine a circle of compassion and then imagine nobody's standing outside the circle. That's what

kinship is about. No daylight separating us. It's been a long time that you've been in this work, so you may just say, like I can't remember that far back, but you know, one of the complaints is that privileged white people step into spaces, and the more modern term is, you know, you come in as a white savior. Right.

I'm curious whether that was sort of the way you entered this space and very quickly got it knocked out of you, or were you wise enough to come in realizing that wasn't what it was about in the first place. You know what the home you had a dream about a darkened room, and I had a flashlight and I aimed the flashlight the beam of light the light switch, and he went and he turned the light switch on

and the room was flooded with light. And he's sobbing as he's telling me this story, and he said the lights better than the darkness, like he didn't know that to be the case. But I heard that dream and I said, Okay, I can't turn light switches on for people. I need to be content with the fact that I own a flashlight and I know where to aim it, and that's it, period, you know. So that changed my life.

I don't think I've ever had a moment like that in my whole life, where all of a sudden I went, oh, okay, I will totally change course right now. I don't think it was about savior so much. It's not how it works. You can't turn light switches on for people in a darkened room. You can utilize your flashlight, but only they can do that. So it was very liberating, and I've never been close to burnout since that Homie told me that dream. The problem is, you know, our narrative, of course,

is not about privilege. It's about character. You know, like I grew up in l A and I never joined a gang. Well, it's absurd. There was no chance I would join a gang, not because of moral superiority. So that narrative is, goofball, you want to go. I want all these lotteries, parent lottery, sibling lottery, zip code lottery, educational lottery. Yeah. Yeah, there's no comparison. So that's important

to acknowledge privilege. You know, kind of a phenomenon probably in the last five years, where I go to university campuses, especially Catholic universities, and there's a kind of a privilege paralysis, whereas fifteen years ago, you know, people were set on fire and they were going, oh my god, I want to make a contribution in the world. Then it became kind of like, who am I to go to the margins? And you don't go to the margins to save anybody

or fix or rescue. It's important if you're privileged to go to the margins to have your heart altered. So that's important. I think, you know, paralysis should be unacceptable. I agree, And I have seen a similar thing well, exactly what you said. People who I think are well intentioned become afraid to step into a space because of

the way that this privileged discussion has happened. I heard you say once somebody was asking you about, you know, did you feel like you were qualified as a white man and a non gang member and all that to kind of show up and quote unquote speak to these people, and and you said very I'm paraphrasing, but very eloquently, something along the lines of I didn't show up to speak, I showed up to listen. And anybody can do that, and that really is a powerful way of orienting towards things. Well.

I remember one time I was with a group of university students. They were here doing an immersion thing, and then I was called in to kind of answer questions and stuff, and the young woman with a kind of a tone said what makes you qualified to do this work? And I didn't know what to say, but then I just reached down to my wrist and I kind of put my fingers on my pulse, and I said, a pulse, that's what makes me qualified to do this work. So if you're the proud owner of a pulse, you're qualified.

The problem comes when everything becomes so rarefied and specialized and people say, step aside, let me handle this. No, it's a human thing. So that example came from gang members who were doing hardcore gang intervention work as I was in the early days, and finally I'm the only white guy and the rest are all gang members. And at one point they had a lot of respect for

me because they knew I was doing the work. I was out there, but they said, you know, bothering me with all due dispant, the homies are gonna listen to us more than they'll listen to you. And I always said the same thing. You're absolutely right if the task is yakking at homeboys, but it isn't. It's listening, it's receiving. It's allowing your heart to be altered. So that's a whole other stance and the stance that's important. You know. It's not just where you stand, but how are you

standing there? Yeah. Yeah, that idea of going to the margins for our own heart to be altered, that's a real takeaway for me. It's an orientation. I mean, we talk about that in twelve step programs. Right. We're helping other alcoholics, not because we're so great, but because that's the best thing we can do for ourselves. It turns out to be a beautifully bidirectional, reciprocal relationship, but there

is an absolute aspect of healing in it. For the quote unquote person who's been sober longer or the sponsor is I'm not doing this because you so deeply need my help. I'm doing it because I deeply need you. Yeah, I think so. And then we're tempted to stay Oh my god, that's selfish. Yeah, yeah, that's as it should be.

It should be selfish, you know, because then that's how it becomes exquisitely mutual, that somehow, in each other's company, we're walking each other home and we're returning each other to our own dignity and nobility. So I don't do that for you, and you don't do that for me. It happens together, and obviously I think that's important, you know, because it keeps us focused on the environment and the

community and the place. Transformation wouldn't happen here if it weren't for this actual place where everybody is giving a dose. You know. Homie said, there's an aroma here. Yeah, that's

what it's like. There's an aroma. So you want to stay connected to the transformational place, otherwise it becomes the d m V, you know, and you just have anger management is window forty nine, you know, and now serving number seventy three, you know, it's like, no, it's everybody's helping each other, everybody's walking each other home, and it's

a beautiful thing to behold. So I'll ask you a kind of final question here as we wrap up, and it's really about gratitude, and there's a couple of parts to it. But the first is there's a thing that you wrote in the book about under the topic of gratitude, where you said the hope is that homies won't just settle for answers, but instead hold out for meaning. So I'd like to start asking you what do you mean by that? It's not about advice or here are three

steps to get to that place. You know the truth of who you are and delight in it. And it's not about becoming a better person. It's about discovering your truth. Then you live from that truth and that's meaningful. And you know it's not purpose. I found. My purpose is to do this service thing. You know, it's not quite like that. It's it's more like I know who I am and nobody can touch me now, and you want them to get to that sense of confidence in who

they are. But it's not a mountain you climb where you know, the top of the mountain is your your your best self. It's not about morality, which I think is really important. You know, the moral quest has never were kept us moral, it's just kept us from each other. So change the quest. It's about health. You know, I want to be healthier today than I was yesterday. And

then you kind of catch yourself. You know Pema Children who was a friend of mine, who was a monk, she always talks about catching yourself, you know, so that you can be more loving and true and open your heart. And that's the idea. But you don't have to become a good person. You already are a good person, but you might want to, you know, remove the blindfold and see that you are. Ye. And what's the role of gratitude and all this for you? Well, I think gratitude

is always the sign of health. You know, there are many signs, but gratitude is one of them because then you know what you have, you know what you've been given. Then you can cherish it, you can savor it, you can relish it, you can take care of it. And you can't do that unless you're grateful. Yeah. You quote a Peruvian priest who says only one kind of person can transform the world, the one with a grateful heart. Yeah.

I think that's true. But in the end, all these things we think they're about character and good person, bad person, but it's really about healthy person, and a healthy person can maintain a grateful heart. So we all are on a continuum of health, and nobody is well until all of us are well. So how do we help each other move towards health and wholeness. I think that helps to frame it that way, because otherwise it's a battle between good people and bad people, and that's nonsense. Yep, Ye, well,

father Greg, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure to have you on. As I said before, I've admired your work for probably ten twelve years now, So thank you so much. And we were supposed to talk last time, and you had something come up, and so I got to spend about thirty minutes with Fabian, and so this interview is going to have both of you in it, so it's gonna be lovely. That's great. Thank you. I

really happy to speak with you. Take care. Thanks And as promised for the second half of this episode is the interview with Fabian Deborah. Fabian's work has been showcased in solo and group exhibitions throughout the United States and abroad, including Santa Barbara, Los Angeles, Kansas City, Brooklyn, and all throughout Latin America. Fabian served as a counselor and the director of substance abuse services and Programming, as well as a mentor at Homeboy Industries in Los Angeles for a decade.

He is now the executive director of Homeboy Art Academy, pursuing and developing his vision to continue to serve greater Los Angeles area and abroad. So, Fabian, maybe I'll read the parable to you and kind of get your thoughts on it. In the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with a grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always a battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other there's a bad wolf,

which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and thinks about it for a second and looks up at his grandparents as well. Which one wins, and the grandparents says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what does that parable mean to you in your life and in the work that you do personally? I think it depends on what portion of your life you're in, right, So I think back in my time when I was struggling and

I was involved in gang violence and drug addiction. Yes, than that parable to me would make a lot more sense then. But I think as you start to transform and heal, you come to recognize that there is no bad people, And so when you think of that, you know you recognize for me, for example, like I've always wanted to be loving and caring to my children, but it was behind drugs, addiction and violence that I couldn't be present in their life. But that didn't make me

a bad person. It just made me to be lost in the introim. So to me, when I hear that parable, it's about yes, if we put in that perspective, there is a duality and human beings that were constantly fighting to stay ahead to the right thing to live and passion to be loving, caring. There is that aspect and of course you know our trauma, our misery are suffering now for me personally is what I don't want to feed, but I embrace in order to stay on that positive

side of things. And so and that's what we do here. I think what we try to do in our work is to remind folks of their goodness all the time and what it is they bring in who they are as individuals. For the bad, we recognize that we live in there, and there's the reasons why we don't heal or transform and delays our process. And so when we're doing this work, we're always finding the goodness and reminding the folks that we work with of their goodness and

to it prevails away from the past. Yeah, I love that perspective. I've followed Homeboy Industries in the work you guys have done nine ten years now. I've been familiar with what you do, and I've always been struck by what you just said, which is that sense of doesn't matter what somebody comes through the door with. You're looking

for the good, the undamaged, the best parts of them. Absolutely, and I think that's what it takes for the world to be able to remove any stereotypes or any misconceptions of the image of the gang member or just a person in itself, regardless of the mistakes he has ever made. You know, there's always goodness and somebody you know prior to and it's about finding where it stems from, you know, rather than judging them for what they do, because every

action stems from something and what is that something? You know? And then you start to learn and understand the stories behind the individual, which then you say to yourself, how don't blame you, How I would probably done the same, right, But how do we move them from that and how do we invite them to this kinship and compassion that

we still talk about. Homeboy Industries That's the idea, and it starts with them, right so before we can be compassionate of another, we need to be compassionate to ourselves. Before we can begin to love another, we have to begin to love ourselves. And I think that's what we do good at homeboys that we love them. We cherished them with tenderness and compassion until they learned how to do it for themselves, and then everything else comes after that.

So was there a moment for you or a series of moments maybe you could walk us through kind of when things started to change for you and how that happened. I think for me, I've always wanted to change. And I think I was a person who was raised by great grandparents, you know, first generation Mexican American. Both grandparents came with many core values that would take off their shirts to give to the next male. Love your neighbor as you love yourself. All that, you know, all that

came with my family. But it wasn't until uh my father, right, who was a great man as well, who I looked up to, who I admired, he had to make some choices that put him in the path of incarceration. He was an immigrant, and so when we came to Los Angeles, he tried to provide for his family, but because of the obstacles in place for an immigrant, he got his best thinking led him to the quick fix, which is

strug dealing. And I think that when the impact began for me personally, I started to not see my father often. He will be in prison three years, come home to three months, do the same, go back for another four And so I was kind of raised by myself and my mother. So for me, those are the disparities that began to rob me of my hope in a sense. Even though Grandma taught me well and even though my

mother modeled everything well, I was still missing something. And I was the guidance and love for my father that I really needed as a young man. And so then you start to fill in the blanks per se, and you start to volve for things. You know, other things. And in the environment where I grew up and Boil Heights, and it's Los Angeles, Boil Hights, there's gangs all around us, and every block is a gang. And where I come from is where Father Gregg came to do his missionary work,

which was the Lord's Mission Catholic Church. I went to the lords Shan Catholic School, so I've known Father Great since I was ten years old, and because of all this turmoil that I encountered, not knowing how to cope, how to deal with things, I then start to partake and contributing the same misery onto others. It wasn't until I decided to kill myself. I had three near death experiences suicide attempts, and it wasn't my third suicide when I started to see that there is something much more

greater than myself. There's something bigger than the life I'm living now. Even though I had children, even though I had a wife and I have family who loved me, I had to do it for me. And it wasn't until my third suicide attempt where I gained my spiritual awakening. That's when I knew there is something greater than me, greater than myself. And so at that point, did you remember Father Greg and the work he was doing and seek out his help and Homeboys help or did you

originally get helped via a different way? Absolutely, I was part of Homeboy Industries in and now. Okay, throughout my journey, Father Greg would touch base with me. But you know, Father Gregg could only do so much, you know, he would be there for me, and he would just remind me, come on, so and you have a drinking and you have a drug problem, come ons and commands and but

it had to come from within me. And eventually, because of that connection with Father Greg and Homeboy in existence, I knew then when there was time for me to make that change. The first step I took was to go to Salvation Army Rehabilitation Center. So I went to

Salvation Army. I did six months there and I started to impact all that heard, all that pain that I was running from, and I knew then when I started to feel free or clear of drugs, then I knew that it was time to go look for Father Gregg. And so I came to Homeboy Industries and two thousand seven, and that's when I walked through the door and Father Gregg boiled received me with open arms, and he gave

me an opportunity to reclaim my life. And so in that moment, I decided to get back into Homeboy and work my way up. I'm a fellow alcoholic drug addict in recovery. Did you go to any external programs for that or did you find what you needed in Homeboy? Oh? No, absolutely, no, no, no no. So I has to stay. Recovery is a lifetime process and we know this, and so I also have therapy, I have mental health. I have a therapist. I also did NA meetings, right, they still have to

go to those support groups and a meetings. You have a sponsor that you have to stay working with as well. So it's an ongoing process. Here I am at seventeen years now clean and sober, and I become that sponsor and now I'm the one giving back and I'm the one helping others, you know, And that's an addict helping another addict. Now my experience is not their experience, but together we can create one. And it comes with recovery,

it comes for healing and transformation. And that is why I've become and until this day, I still have a supervisor of some sort, mental health supervisor that I check in because you know, a lot of these things, if you're not in healing, they will be rich triggered. If you're not in recovery, you will get retriggered. And then I think, in the time, does heal those things? And then you get a better ego. Life Bird's view on how to correspond to the world rather than react to

the world, you know what I mean. And I think that's the beauty because we could react to the world, and reacting to the world, I don't know how far that got me. So it's better to step back and correspond in a way that it's going to be healthy and beneficial for me first and foremost, so that I can be affected to those who are receiving or who I'm walking with. So now let's add art into the mix.

I know that you're now the director of the Homeboy Industries Art Institute, Yes, the Homeboy Art Academy, Homeboy Industries Art Academy. Yes. And I think for me, art has always been an essential tour. I mean, I was born with the gift of art, ever since I was a kid, regardless of what aspect of life I was partaken, and I was still an artist, born an artist. And then ever since I was a kid, I remember I would admire the animation cartoons like Tom and Jerry, Popeye, he

Man and all these great cartoons. Those those images would just do something for me as a child. And so when I was a kid, and then my father will come home and disrupt the household and the family because of his drug addiction, domestic violence. Mom in despair, I will go and hide under a coffee table. And I remember this at six years old around that time, and I will go and hide under a coffee table, and I'll pick up my notebook and I'll begin to create

my own worlds to escape my reality. That's when I discovered art to be more than just the talent. It was a if. It was a coping mechanism, something that I can turn to and that I can utilize to hold me when it felt like no one else was holding me. And I practiced that throughout my years of life and even the incarceration. I would draw about it. Even when I was in jail, I would draw, draw, draw on drugs addictions, I would draw, draw, draw. Never

did I lose sight of my gift of art. And I think for me, I was painting even through my drug addiction Virgin Mary's throughout the city of Los Angeles. I'll put signs on different liquor stores, you know, to get my fixed. But now you know, when I came to Homeboy in two thousand and seven, I knew exactly what I had to do besides recovery first and foremost, I had a gift, and I have to pick that brush and continue to express my thought, emotions, most importantly

my lived experience. And that's when I started to paint all over again. I had an exhibit in two thousand and eight after I got cleaned at Homegirwl Cafe, and I read recognize how many people really cared about me, I really loved me and knew me as an artist from my community. And I said, m hmm, this feels good. How do I amplify it? And then the next year another series of art. Then the next year, another series of art. Now you're going to Mexico City, and now

they want you in New York. Oh and by the way, which you go to Jamaica. Oh and Chile wants you as well Honduras. And here I am now traveling the world through my own story testimonial, but most importantly how the art corresponds to my lived experience, and also doing productions, you know, for like different movies sets, you know, and

also designs for the movie industry here in Hollywood. And I started to say, Okay, now now I'm living my dream in the way that I'm utilizing my gift to not only change to inspire folks for transformation, but also opening doors. As a self heard artist that in itself it is very meaningful and can be utilized to inspire. Are the next young man and woman that walks through

my door? I've heard you say that. The question for you is how do I take all my experience as being a gang member, having no father drug addiction, put it in the jar, shake it up and see what comes out. Absolutely, and that was from the Getty Museum. I set that in a little short Dog of the Getty because one of my art works does live in the vote of the Getty Museum through the book called a Book of Friends, and at that book houses all

l A graffiti artists. And so to me it's that artist is powerful man like art could make people or break people. Right, So if art is a window to another dimension, then what images them are portraying to the world. And so I think for me it's about taking my struggle, my lived experiences, and all those accomplishments and creating images that are reflective of my community. And this way they too can feel the transcendence of my own personal healing.

But also say, man, I use it for uplifting and I also paint real people in my art, so I would choose someone from here, like, you know what, let's just say, Rosalinda, you have a look. Can I paint you to tell that story? I don't know what you're gonna do, but I guess. And so when I do that and I tell that story through an image, she feels inspired and she feels seen like he chose me to do that, Oh my god. And they also get

to see themselves in a different light. But most importantly, I think for me, it's like, what is my responsibility as an artist? My responsibility as an artist is to help remove all stereotypes that have been placed upon the image of the game by utilizing identity, culture, religion, and gender. Those are my subject and things that are utilized to combat to stereotypes and helps me return the image of the game member back to his humanity or her humanity.

That's beautiful. I want to ask you a question about hope. You know the work that you guys do at Homeboy, there are incredible stories of hope. Your story is an incredible story, but there's also great tragedy in there. Absolutely, How do you maintain a sense of hope or how do you know what to hope for in the work that you do? How do you think about hope? I mean, hope it's just extending our hand and being with folks tenderly,

not judgment and all that. But I also believe that a lot of us already come from that lifestyle, right, So I think personally we get to build relationship with folks, we get to know folks. And I also believe that yet because this is the things that we are up against, you know, leaving or being part of a gang, and because of all those things we've seen, you know, we

always living in fear. So the goal is to help them not to live in fear by creating a community of love, compassion and understanding that it will penetrate so much that then you have the essence to believe that you too belong and that you too have a sense of work in this world, and that in itself what smashed or topple that fear that we come from or

that we lived through. And so it is important and it is through ritual that we acknowledge even in these tragedies, we always shine light on the goodness, for there is a lesson to be learned for every single one of us.

Fabian brings something, Eric brings something. There are things that we contribute to this world, and when those strategies do happen, we make sure that our community recognizes and it's reminded of the individual's goodness, so that they too can feel that instance of hope coming from the contributions of those who might have left us a bit too. So what do you hope for now, at this stage in your life, your recovery, where you are, what do you hope for?

I mean, I think for me, it's always been a dream of my you know, growing up in the Los Angeles boil hides. You know, there are minimal resources, and you know, I recognize that if I would have had for your college or had some sense of foundation or stability, I probably would have avoided many of the things that

I've encountered. But because we come from deprivation, you know, poverty, you know, and knowing that I'm an artist, and I'm telling him my mom can afford art supplies, you know, I share that how it either we get milk or you get a brush. So of course I'm gonna run with the milk we needed for the house, right So

we had to make choices around circumstantial barriers. So for me, my vision of the Humble Art Academy is to be able to create a community art school within the community, such as it's going to be able to receive everyone here and provide everything that institution can provide with hopes to put you into this trajectory of the art. Let's

just say, and that's all it is. Man, if I can leave assets for my children, I have seven beautiful kids and a beautiful wife who stuck with me throughout my journey man and I put her through a lot, and she still stands by me. That's still with me, and now she reads all the rewards of my own recovery. But I would just want to be able to leave some assets and also let my kids know who I

was as a legend and artist of Los Angeles. And I think I'm doing a great job so far, but most importantly, leave a community college within community that can live on for those next generations to come. Well, I think you are doing it beautifully. Also a word that's used a lot, at least in father Greg's writing, so I assume it works its way through Homeboy. Is the

word kinship? Is that a word that has meaning to you. Yeah, well, that's I think what we called for the world right, for all of us to be a kidship regardless of race and necessity, regardless of choices or where I come from, where you come from. I mean kidship. It's a circle where everyone belongs right. And I think that's what we tried to convey to the world world, and that's how

we live here. And I think in kinship, that's how we penetrate the lives of these young men and women that come through our doors, because for so many years or so many decades, we have been excluded or demonized, or judge or pushed out in a sense. And when you come to Homeboy, regardless of what we do, we embrace you, and we're just gonna get closer. And I think that's how the world needs, you know, that's the

an adult. If we can all just see either eye and live in kinship, regardless of where we are or who we are, then we're making a big old difference. And and that's just too bad that the world hasn't seen that yet. But in our world at Homeboy, we do. And then what happens at Homeboy, because I've changed my life now I have a ripple effect, and then I create the same thing put in place amongst my youth here, and then they change their life, and then they create

a ripple effect. And that's the idea. So Father Greg, back in the days, they used to ask him, how is it working with gangs? And Father Greg would say, I don't work with gangs. I worked with gang member because the minute the gang member decides to redirect his life, in the end, there's no recruits. Now let's put in perspective, Fabian has seven children. The chances of my kids joining

the gang is zero to none. It's ridiculous because now there's nothing but loved, compassion and understanding and my household everything a child needs to sustain his innocence, to feel his worth to go out ad meet the world. There's no more abuse, there's no more domestic violence, there's no alcoholism, no drug addiction, nothing but love, compassion and understanding, and that's it. And you'd be surprised. I have my fourteen year old. At fourteen, I was learly, I was already

in and out of incarceration. At eighteen, I was already an adult prison in and out, and here I got my nineteen year old hard worker, got his car, doing great in college. I got my other eighteen year old who's going to be a police officer, and he's a leaka dead three years in the academy. He's getting ready to get an internship to go be a police officer. And I sit back, Eric, and I sit in my living room and I look at my family and my children and my kids, and I'm like, you're blessed at thirteen,

look where you were. You have no worry about him going there or doing that. And that goes back to making the decision to turn my life around, because I know if I would be missing in their life, I could only imagine how dark it could get. Yeah, yeah, that really is a beautiful story. And I look at my son, who is now twenty three, and when I was his age, I was a homeless heroin addict, you know, and just to see where he's at. Everybody has challenges, but he is in just such a different place than

I was at that age. I feel so fortunate and blessed absolutely. And then because we know you and I are know how dark it can get and how lonely it can be, and how destructive it can become and I think every father and if you hear it here working with these young men and women as well as adults, every father or every homeboy or home growth. The first thing they say is like, I just don't want my kids to go through what I've gone through. Yes, and that is to be true, and there's some major truth

behind that. And they would say what if, though, And then they say what if one of your kids just decides to And then you say, well, at least I've crawled through those darkest tunnels of my life and I know and have discovered things that I feel my work, so I'll be the best person to hold them even if that happens in my household. Is there anything else you would like to add that you feel it's important? Yeah, I just want to share. You know, I'm a very

spiritual person. Now, I'm a very spiritual believer. I'm a spiritual person, and I would just say this the book forgive everyone and everything to me. It's just another seal of approval. Knowing that I met Greg when I was ten years old and he always infused the arts within the community. Then and here we are, you know, thirty four years later, that I've known him. Maybe I've known him for like I was ten. Yeah, I probably know him for like twenty eight years, almost thirty years, let's say.

And so I would say, here we are, thirty years later, coming together under this one book and him infusing the arts way back when I was ten years old. To see this book come together to power players. Man, it's like it just looks amazing. His words with my visuals. It's a beautiful chemistry. I always tell him it's a matchmate in heaven. He starts laughing, But yeah, it's a good book, and I think the art corresponds. And why does it work? I think they asked me last time.

Why does it work so beautifully? It's because we're in enlightenment. Father greats were words are my images, and my images are inspired by Father Greg's words. Because we've come from homeboy, there's a movement, there's a healing element, and that's why the images correspond beautifully. Man, Because it's the same mission. I do it visually, he do it it through literature.

You know, Yeah, I agree. I mean, like I said, I've read Father Greg's work since he's been publishing, but to see it with your art gives it a whole another element. It is a really beautiful book. And you're right, you guys are in kinship with each other for sure, and then it comes through in the book absolutely. But thank you Eric for allowing me to share and be here with you today. And I hope any of these words I have come through me whoever is listening, that

it inspires you and that it motivates you. And if you have anyone who might be struggling, or people you may know, you know where does the stem from. Let's get to know them. Let's be tender and really get to the bottom of why is it that the folks tend to struggle? And maybe in and maybe there the movement will began for transformation for the individual. Don't lose hope for God is good. And with that being said, thank you so much Eric for having me here. You

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