When people in my life are going through a hard thing, I just listen. I don't try to say, oh, you must be feeling X, or oh it'll be fine.
I try to listen first.
Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think, ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking.
Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.
Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Jowey Shaw, an award winning podcast host, producer, and self proclaimed emotional investigative journalist. She's the host of Proxy, a show about niche emotional questions answered through conversations with strangers who have shared experience. In her previous Life. She spent many years making NPR's Invisibilia podcast, first as a producer,
then as a co host and editorial lead. Her work has also been featured in places like This American Life and pop up magazine.
Hi Joe, welcome to the show.
Thank you for having me. What an honor.
Yeah, well, it's an honor for me to talk to you. You were involved in one of the great podcasts of our age, Invisibilia, So I've known your work for a while, as do many people who listen to NPR and follow MPR podcasts. And we'll get into your time in Invisibilia and then what kind of came after that getting laid off. But before we get into all that, let's start like
we always do with the Parable. And in the Parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and
hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and thinks about it for a second, looks up at their grandparents, says, well, which one wins, and the grandparent says the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.
I love this parable.
I love thinking about it because I feel like it's actually what drives my work.
What power is it? Like, I'm really drawn.
To that emotional noise between the good wolf and the bad wolf. You know, we all have the good wolf and bad wolf constantly chattering. There's always that struggle about countless different issues every day, and I am really drawn to examining those battles that we feel like we can't settle on our own, that we have trouble settling, and
I like trying to make sense of it. And so this is sort of like why I am now calling myself a little bit tongue in cheek an emotional investigative journalist, because I want to investigate those battles and then try to report on it. Like that's sort of how I
deal with my feelings in general. I've been a reporter now for fifteen years, which is most of my adult life, and like that's sort of how I deal with those battles between the good wolf and the bad wolf when I can't figure it out through the or for like
by meditation or talking about it with friends. And so I found that like when you report on your feelings, when you talk to experts who can help contextualize that battle, like what systems and ideas and histories have led to you having this particular battle of voices, How can maybe you think about it differently in a way that's more helpful to you. And then getting to talk to strangers who have shared experience who can tell you how they've
dealt with that battle themselves. I found that really helpful. And so yeah, I feel like that's sort of like what I like to do in general, for myself and for other people.
Wow, that's really powerful. Now I'd like to turn this to our listeners. What part of that message struck a chord with you as you think about nourishing your good wolf? What specific ideas or actions come to mind for me this month? It's relationships. Relationships are the cornerstone of our well being. When they thrive, we flourish, and when they struggle, we suffer. Many of us face relationship challenges, feeling lost and frustrated, but there is hope. Strong relationships aren't just
about fate. They're built on learnable skills. By developing these abilities, you can transform your connections and in turn, your life. So relationships are this month's theme and our weekly Bite of Wisdom for a Wiser, Happier You newsletter, and I'd love to send them your way. Each week we send a menu of a few small exercises you can put in practice to feed your good Wolf, along with a
reflection and a related podcast episode on the topic. At the end of this episode, I will be giving you a tip from this week's newsletter, But in the meantime, if you'd like to join thousands of others who are already benefiting from these tips, go to Goodwolf dot me slash relationships. That's good Wolf dot me slash relationships. I
love that title. An emotional investigative journalist. That's great and one of the things that many psychologists in different schools of psychology will talk about is this idea of getting distance from our thoughts and emotions right being able to sort of separate from them. And that's exactly what you're describing and why it's helpful for you. It's by reporting on it and asking about it and looking at it
from different angles. It's a way of disentangling. It's a way of creating that distance in the healthy sense of the word, not distance in the unhealthy sense of the word, but in the sense of disentangling. Or the founders of acceptance and commitment therapy would call it diffusion, not being fused with those thoughts and emotions. They call it cognitive diffusion. So I think that's kind of what you're describing there, and it's a well known way of working with thoughts and emotions skillfully.
Well, I have a lot of questions for you. I did not know about this. I'm going to ask you for some book wrecks after this.
Yeah, I feel like you know now that you're saying this is like an actual technique, you know that has been studied for how to deal with your emotions and move through them. I think that, Yeah, Like reporting on my feelings is like one way I've been able to do that through work for myself and for other people. But I've also found that like creating a ritual through like a kind of absurd art project has also.
Been really working for me lately. And what do I mean by that?
Okay, So, recently, I got laid off and felt really bad and I felt a lot of shame. And one of the things that happened afterwards was like I knew that I needed to be around my people, like the people who loved me, and yet I wanted to get away from them. I didn't want anyone to look at me like I felt so so much shame that I didn't want anyone like other people's gaze, like it was like daggers, you know, it was like hurting me. And so after I got laid off, I was like, Okay,
I know I'm having this issue. And you could like frame it in terms of the parable like the good wolf is like, you know, you need to be around your people who love you. These people love you, they're not thinking about you differently. They want to support you. Then the bad wolf is like, no, everybody hates.
You, nobody wants to be associated with you anymore. You're such a burden, Like, get over it already.
And so what I did was I tricked out my basement to be a massage parlor.
I like massage, I like dabble.
I love getting massages, and I dabble in the bit of body work for other people as a form of care, and so I created Yowi Shpa, which was like, I got a massage table.
The theme was pink.
I got some fake plants, I got a hot towel steamer. I just like tricked it out and then I sent around a signup sheet to my friends and was like, yoweish open for business. And basically I ended up massaging a friend a week for the entire summer after I got laid off, And like, I think that was my way, like just creating a fun, weird ritual to try to deal with the bad wolf voice in me.
I love that and in the hot towel steamer, that's going for it. Now here's a dream I've long had, and maybe you, as a fellow lover of massage and a reporter, maybe I've met the person who can help me bring this to life, which is that I feel like there should be massage review services. Like you go to get a massage and you don't really know where
to go. There's so many different choices, and so I thought, like, would that not be the dream job, like to be a massage reviewer, Like that would be brilliant.
Yes, for every local paper you know, Now you have like the restaurant critic. You need like a bodywork critic to me, like an alternative health bodywork whatever for accutructure, for massage for like, I don't know. There's so many different services these days.
I love that. Now I'm going to try to manifest that as my new job for both of us. You're in New York, right, I'm in Philadelphia.
Oh, Philadelphia? Okay, all right, I thought you were in New York. I have my city's mixed. Well, Philadelphia is a big enough city. You could probably pull that off. I'm not sure.
In Chris, plenty of places to review who need our services.
Yeah, a reviewers there is. Yeah, I would read a massage reviewer for sure before I went anyway. That and this is strange. My other dream career that I think about maybe someday when I retire, is similar. I want to be a dog messuse.
Wait a minute, do you have a dog?
I do, yes?
And do you already dabble in dog massage?
Oh? Yes, yes, yes, Wow. I might like to massage her more than she likes to be massage, and I'm not entirely sure. Sometimes she really.
Seems to like spread out your services.
And every once in a while, She's like, get off of me. Yeah, exactly, leave me alone. So, yes, it just seems like that would be a lovely career.
Yeah.
Now, I have another thing I'm going to ask you about after this is I want to learn how to be cat massage my two cats.
Okay, well I'm going to assume it's similar. I'm not qualified for this job, but there is such a thing and they do offer training in it. Anyway, Okay, that's not what we're here to talk about. But apparently we both could talk about massage for a long time. But what we're going to talk about is led to you creating the yo a spa that I say it right, a spa.
Yes.
What led to you creating that, which was you getting laid off. So you worked your way up to being a co host of a popular show called Invisibilia, which was a great show. You'd been a reporter for it, you became a co host, and then you were laid off. Talk to me about that experience, maybe how it happened and how you felt.
Yeah, Okay, so at MPR we had an unusual layoff, which is because MPR told us gave us like a huge heads up that they were going through budget trouble and they needed to lay ten percent of us off
and we'd find out who in a month. And so I had a whole month with the rest of my colleagues to sort of have panic attacks, sweat it out, have sleepless nights, do a lot of teeth grinding, and then the day came where we'd find out who got the email, you know, to let us know that you needed to have a meeting with HR.
And I ended up getting.
The email, And yeah, I have to say that in the beginning, I was I was numb. I think that like that whole month leading up to the actual layoff kind of functioned like a form of exposure therapy, Like I was just getting used to the idea that I
might lose my job for an entire month. And so in some ways I was not surprised, because like I knew it could happen, But on the other hand, it still felt like a shock, like I still was so completely thrown and it was very confusing to me because you know, getting laid off in journalism these days, I mean that's practically a rite of passage at this point,
you know, Like I knew that was the deal. Going into this profession, NBR had literally told me and my colleagues that I might get laid off, and yet I was still so shaken to my core. I felt like my operating system was glitching. And yeah, basically, for the next several months after that, I went through this roller coaster ride of feelings.
There was a lot of shame. There was a lot of spiraling about.
What could I have done differently, you know, was it this mistake or was it that mistake? There was a lot of paranoia about interacting with other people and potential employers. I went to like a journalism conference last summer for Asian American Journalists Association, and I just remember just being so paranoid. Like anytime anyone asked me like how are you, like, I would be this close to just like bursting into tears, or like, you know, have you found another job yet?
Just really benign questions would throw me for a loop. And yeah, I basically like I knew I had about as good of a layoff as it gets, truly, Like we had a very good union contract at MPR, so I got severance. There were healthcare for like a few months after I had savings I'm married, I have a husband who can support me. I don't have kids, you know what I mean. Like I had a lot going for me materially to like help soften the landing here,
and yet emotionally I was just completely a mess. And that disconnect between like my material reac and my emotional reality was really you know, like I said before, like whenever I have an emotional problem like this that I can't figure out, I start to report on it.
And so that's what I did.
And yeah, I ended up reporting the series trying to understand like why do layoffs mess us up so badly? And I just want to say, you know, this is just my experience. I have friends who got laid off from the same company and did not experience it this way. But I do think a significant portion of Americans do experience it this way, and that's what I was interested in figuring out.
So you've alluded to some of the emotional difficulty that was there. You've alluded to shame. I assumed there was fear in their embarrassment, which sounds like shame. What were the primary sort of emotions that you were going through? Are there others that I've missed?
Hmm, fear, shame, embarrassed. There's other ones too, Let's take them one by one. So, yeah, so we already covered shame, which was really confusing to me.
Why I would.
Feel like the company told me it's not my fault. Right, that's the definition of a layoff. It's a no fault termination. You're getting laid off because of something that has to do with the company, not because of you, right, And they generally always tell you it's not you, it's not about your performance. This is just a business decision. And yet why was I taking it so personally? Why did I feel like this was an indictment about me? Why did it feel like MPR was rejecting everything about me?
You know? Why did I feel deficient? You know?
So that was a big one. And then yeah, fear, thank you for mentioning that one. Yes, even though you know I am relatively privileged, I was still really scared, like I'm the prime breadwinner for my family. I was like afraid about kind of running through all the scenarios that might happen. You know, well, if I don't get a job for these many months, Okay, well then what will happen if you know, we lose the house, and like where will we move? And da da da da da,
how will we feed the cats? You know, just like kind of spiraling in those material ways. And then there was also fear around getting another job. And this was also I mean, the podcast industry is not doing great at the moment, especially the narrative podcast industry sort of you know, the bottom has.
Fallen out of it.
So yeah, there is some point to that fear, some justification around maybe I won't be able to find another.
Job, but also I have fifteen years.
Of experience, like I am a pretty seasoned podcast person, Like it didn't totally make sense how afraid I was compared to like my circumstances.
And then I was like, oh have I peaked? Like is this it?
Is this like the pinnacle of what I'll be able to do in podcast journalism and trying to think what are all the other emotions?
I think?
Also the thing that really stuck with me was like, why do I feel like people are looking at me differently? Is this just in my head? Or are they looking at me differently? It felt like a kind of microaggression, you know, when people would say things to me like have you found another job yet, Are you gonna be changing switching industries?
Are you?
You know, just just like little things that became so much bigger when your entire body is a scuffed me, you know.
And so I really.
Wanted to understand just like, why is this just me being a drama queen? Or is there something to like what I'm feeling? Are there cistims and dynamics contributing to the way I feel?
Yeah?
And so what did you find out as you began to investigate this? What did you find out about what happens to people during layoffs and why it impacts again, not everyone, but some of the people so strongly.
Yes, Okay, so the first thing I learned, I mean, the history on layoffs is pretty wild. It's very interesting, Like before the nineteen seventies, you know, companies pretty much avoided white collar layoffs, Like this is a pretty recent phenomenon. If a company were to experience layoffs, that would be an indictment of the company, right, you know, like the company needs to feel shame, and now it's slipped. So now we sort of accept layoffs as just like that's just.
What business has to do these days.
But it wasn't always like that, and so that was the first kind of like data point of like, oh okay, so like it wasn't always like this, you know, like there are these structural things that are happening that are leading to this situation in the first place. And then I've talked to the sociologist over Sharon, who has done a lot of really interesting work on stigma and laid
off workers and unemployed workers. I went to therapy during this whole period, and like, honestly, talking to him was more enlightening and revelatory than any therapy session I had at this time, because he could just everything I was telling him about what I was feeling.
He would he would be like, yep, there's a reason for that. Yep.
All these people that I talk to you feel exactly like that, yep. And some of the things he told me were that the stigma that I'm feeling this kind of paranoia around are people.
Looking at me differently? Are people looking a differently?
Like that's not just in my head, Like people probably are looking at me differently. And that was like a huge relief to sort of just be like, okay, I can call it like it is these feelings that I'm feeling this intuition, like I'm not wrong, and yeah, there's just a lot of stigma around not just laid off workers, but unemployment in general. When you grow up in school, your teachers are asking you, you know, what do you
want to be when you grow up? You don't really, I don't even know if the word unemployment has I don't think it was mentioned to me during my schooling years. We don't have much familiarity with it, even though it's a fact of this economy. And he said that the stigma really comes down to this myth of meritocracy that we have in this country, basically the idea that your actions and hard work equal your position in life in society.
And even though you know the myth of meritocracy exists in a lot of countries, there have been research studies that find that in the US we believe it the most and the hardest and the deepest.
What that means is if you get laid off, well, then it's your fault.
You know, Like that's the emotional story that I think I was telling myself, even though intellectually I know that's not how it works. And so he helped me kind of solve this puzzle that I was feeling, whereas like, I know it's.
Not my fault.
I know I shouldn't feel like this, and yet I feel like it's my fault.
I feel like this is about me.
And he talked about like interviewing a union organizer whose job it is to explain to workers how our economy works, and even like a union organizer would feel like it's her fault, right, you know, even though intellectually she knows it's not. And so, yeah, so talking to him about that, talking to him about hiring discrimination that unemployed workers and laid off workers face, that it's twice as hard to get a job interview than someone who has the same credentials.
That was also disheartening, but also helpful in that it's like it's like that whole kind of like system versus the individual thing of like is it me?
Is it just me? Or am I part of a pattern?
And I feel like there's a moment where it just clicked for me, like, oh, I'm part of a pattern, these feelings I'm feeling.
I'm not an alien.
There are reasons why I feel this way, and that helped make sense of it.
There's so many things in there I would like to go back and touch on, but the question that just came to mind is you're a journalist working in a podcast industry, doing something that clearly really matters to you. Do you think it's harder in that circumstance than when you're laid off from a job that maybe you are less personally invested in.
Yeah, I think absolutely absolutely, And yet part of me also I have my hackles up when I get asked this question because I think like there's this whole movement right now around like work shouldn't be your identity and like we know better than to, like, you know, care so much about our jobs, and life is about so much more than work. And I guess as somebody who's very very into her work, and like it is a huge part of my identity. But I also I'm like, how can it not matter your job?
You know?
I feel like in that movement there's a little bit of like, you spend so many hours of your life doing this thing, you have social networks around this occupation. To not have it part of your identity seems unrealistic, you know, Like I think that's one response I have to that question. And then of course absolutely yes, if I didn't care so much it would hurt a lot less.
Absolutely, Yeah, yeah, I certainly didn't mean it in any sense that the ideal thing would be to care less. Actually, I think all in all, to have a job that you care about deeply and provides you meaning is the better situation than to have one where you simply go through the motions. Right. I mean, that's just my personal opinion, but I do think in general, right, the more you care about something when you lose it, the harder it is to lose it. It's sort of one of life's
equations that it's just true. When I think about things that I've lost that really really hurt, usually the consolation I find is, oh, but I really really cared, so that's good, right, Like I had something I loved enough to lose it. And I think to your point, though, there are aspects of what we're talking about that probably happen at all different levels, because yes, we are invested in our work, most people take some degree of meaning from it, and our relationships are there. I find it
so interesting this idea of the myth of meritocracy. And as I was listening to your podcast called Proxy, and I think it's a three episode arc that's about this process. And as I was listening to that and you start talking about the myth of meritocracy. As somebody who probably has bought into the myth of meritocracy to some degree over my lifetime, I don't buy into it into the same degree that I used to. I had a little bit of like, but it kind of is true, sort of.
I think what's interesting about it is that it's one of those things that's true and not true at the same time. And what I mean is that it is true that how much effort you put in and how hard you work and all that is an element in what goes into being successful or not successful. But it's far from the only element. As we can see, right, we know people who are very talented who the world just does not treat fair for a thousand different reasons.
So it's one of those things that like, on the one hand, I'm like, well, but you can't totally throw it out, and yet on the other hand, it's not true. I mean I suffered a layoff. I told you about it a little bit. It was a long time ago, but I mean I was working as hard as you could possibly work at the time.
Right.
It was just that an early online company got bought by another company and the layoff occurred. And so I can see in all different cases that the myth of meritocracy is just that. The other thing I thought was interesting as we're talking about the stigma, and I found this idea that people who are unemployed have a far
harder time getting job than someone employed. Right, there's an old saying which is the best time to look for a job as well you have a job, right, And it's just based on that very at least in my mind, I always heard that phrase to mean exactly that, right, that for whatever reason, you look like a better candidate when you have a job versus when you don't have one.
But it was amazing to hear as you did this investigative reporting how open recruiters really were about this fact about just pretty much straight out saying like, yes, we get a lot of applicants, you know, it's hard to sort them out. So one way that we do so is if you have a job, we rank you higher than if you don't.
Yeah, it was wild to hear what recruiters would say. And basically, it's discrimination when you think about it, when it's like a characteristic about you that you cannot help you know, that you cannot change necessarily. It's like it's a form of bias and discrimination that is just openly accepted in our employment system. And that's yeah, that's wild that we were just like, yep, that's just the way it is.
Well, it's based on that same sort of half true thing about the myth of meritocracy, right, because you're assuming that if somebody doesn't have work, it's because something they have done.
Yeah.
And while in certain cases, right, like some people who would come to you to look for work and they don't have a job is because they're not very good, you know what I mean, Like, there are those people, but it's certainly not everybody with layoffs, and I think these part true things. It's easier to throw something out that's completely always falls.
Yeah, And you know, these recruiters also talked about how, you know, even the ones who didn't really buy into that way of thinking, they're like they don't see you know, a resume and see, oh you've been laid off. That means you are a worse performer. You know, there are recruiters who talk to the sociologists who are like maybe that's true, maybe it's not true. It's getting out what
you're saying. This half truth, this partly true assumption for these recruiters because they just have a huge pile of resumes to get through, and also they don't want to get in trouble with, you know, with the manager the team that they're hiring for, Like what if it is true and they end up letting somebody in that isn't going to do a good job, And so they just are conservative and sort of air on the side of, well, let's talk to the people who already have a job.
Let's just air on the side of, you know, we just want to be safe.
It reminds me of another saying. I was in the software business for a long time before I became a podcaster, and so there was an old saying that, like, nobody ever got fired for hiring IBM, And what they mean was, it's the safe choice, right, It's just the safe choice, Like it may not be the best choice, it may not be the right choice, but it's the choice that everybody would at the end of the day go, well,
that sort of makes sense. So I can't penalle lot, you know what I mean, It's that same sort of thing now as somebody who you know, sort of made my way through the startup business without a college degree and all that. Like, I sort of was like, well, you know, I didn't like that phrase. You know, you want to hire somebody like me, the punk rock weirdo that showed up at your door today is your best choice.
So all these things are true. So the other thing that I thought was really interesting is that one of the things that I think is obvious and you heard, is that if you show up for an interview, so you've been laid off and now you're back out and you're looking for a job, if you have a sense of a desperation or be of negativity about what happened, or negativity or feelings of doubt about your own ability, that's not good for getting a job. You don't want
to show up with that. So we would seem the ignoring what we've just been talking about, not knowing that to be true, might be better, because if I know that you're going to discriminate against me, then I'm going to be more doubtful, I'm going to be more afraid.
But it seems like that the research that this gentleman that you were mentioning, did shows that that's actually not true, That there is a way of both recognizing the stigma, recognizing the difficulty allowing the negative emotions to be there, and then also not projecting them as you go into trying to find other work. How does that happen?
This is something that I was experiencing myself as I was reporting the story on layof's. I was reading all these depressing statistics about how layoffs, you know, are linked with higher risk of divorce, higher risk of decreased earnings, you know, higher risk of hospital just like all these bad things that layoffs are linked to. And I was starting to get in my head like, oh no, Like am I going to end up as one of these statistics? Like I got to get another job?
Like ah?
And I asked over Sharon the sociologist, this question of like it seems like it would be counterintuitive, Like it would not be helpful. It seems like it would not be helpful to learn about all these depressing statistics, right, And what he said was he said that yes, it hurts, but also it helps you see that.
It's not your fault if you do have trouble.
It's that deep personalization thing that we were talking about earlier. So over Sharon the sociologist, he did this study where he got all these volunteer career coaches and all these people in Boston who were out of work looking for a job, long term unemployed. He had the coaches try a different approach called sociologically informed support, which to me, I love that term. It's so nerdy, it's so funny.
To me, it's hard to say sociologically informed support. So basically what happened was, at the beginning of the day, Offer would go up in front of everyone and be like, I'm sorry to tell you, folks, but here's what it is, and which is like go through all the odds that are stacked against them, and then he would say, I know this hurts, I know this sucks to hear this, but I want you to know this so that you don't blame yourself for having a hard time getting another job.
There's a reason, a concrete reason why you are having a hard time. Because if you blame yourself, if you internalize all those you know, failed job interviews, all those rejections, all that silence from employers, then it'll make it harder for you to get a job, because you will be even more negative, you will be even more insecure, you know, you'll just leak more negativity, which will then make it harder to get a job, which will make you feel
even worse about yourself. And then you just start to like get into this vicious cycle of negativity. You know, like it's harder for you to get a job that makes you feel worse about yourself, that makes it then harder to get a job when you go show up for.
An interview, and then you just end up in this really toxic, hard loop.
And so what the sociologist recommends is important to know what you're dealing with, What are the odds that are stacked against you, How hard is it for you to get another job? And then get up and sort of shake it off, and then you need to get to work looking for that job. You need to like go ask colleagues for a recommendation. That's like the best way to sort of overcome that bias against unemployed workers or laid off workers is a recommendation from somebody inside the company.
And you basically need to prepare yourself for a marathon, not a sprint, and you need to protect your mental health. You need to prioritize it. You need to understand that there are all these negative feedback loops that could be coming from maybe a spouse who's maybe blaming you for not finding worker, for getting laid off, maybe your friends who maybe don't understand or have distanced themselves, who knows there are a number of negative feedback loops that you
could be dealing with. And so you sort of need to like map out all the negative feedback loops that you might be dealing with and then find your safe people, find the people that you can vent about your negative feelings and they won't judge you. They won't say, oh, well, that's your bad attitude. That's why you're not getting another job, right, You know, people you can be safe with, and then just keep trucking along in until you get that chance.
Because the longer you are unemployed, the harder it is to get a job. And the best way to deal with all those negative consequences that come with unemployment and laid off is getting another job. It's just like this mental jiu jitsu you have to do with yourself. Yeah, that I find very interesting and really goes against what the dominant approach is with career coaches and career centers, which is very like pull yourself up.
By the bootstraps. You can do it.
You just need the right attitude, You just need the right resume, You just need the right outfit, you know what I mean.
And all that matters. All that stuff matters.
Is not to say that like you shouldn't learn how to interview better, or you shouldn't polish your resume.
All that stuff matters. But also it is harder for you to get a job.
Yeah, it's a little bit like recognizing the effects of what trauma can do in your life, because on one hand, it's frightening to hear things like, for example, there's something called the Adverse Childhood Effects Survey. If you get a high score on that, meaning you had a bunch of adverse things happened to you as a child. The list of consequences of things that can happen to you is long, right, I mean, it goes from addiction to heart disease to depression.
I mean, it's just not a happy story. So on one hand, it would be kind of good to not know that, and yet of course you're having impacts from it that are actually happening like you said, it's this jiu jitsu a little bit of like, Okay, I know that that's all true. I know that that is all having an impact on me, and at the same time, I'm determined not to let that be the whole story.
And I think that's we're talking about something similar here. Yes, as a person who's lost your job, there's stigma against you getting rehired. It's harder to get it right. There are these negative things that can occur. You're dealing with negative feedback loop of people who don't understand, people who think the fact you don't have a job is your fault. You've got all that happening. To pretend it's not happening makes you feel insane. Right to pretend it's not is
to sort of feel crazy. Same thing if somebody has a bunch of adverse childhood effects, to pretend that stuff's not having an effect makes you feel crazy because you're like, well, something isn't right. And yet you can't let it be the whole story either, otherwise it becomes self fulfilling prophecies.
At the same time, and I think people who are dealing with difficulties, systematic difficulties of any sorts run up against this, which is, yes, the system is not fair, and yet you still have to find a way within that not to let that be the thing that defines you. And I don't know exactly how people do that. I mean, I think we all all wrestle with it. But it's one of those sort of true half true things we talked about before, where if you end up only accepting
one side of that, your reality is not whole. I guess does that make sense?
Yeah, it really makes sense. It makes me think about So.
One of the things that this sociologist found was most helpful in doing this mental jiu jitsu of trying to like hold the bad statistics in one place and also stay hopeful and like prepare yourself for the marathon ahead so that you don't end up becoming a statistic.
Right.
One of the things he found that was most helpful for participants was the solidarity. How important it was to talk about it with people who understand and won't judge you, who won't blame you for having a bad attitude.
You know, it's the support group model.
He said that like in these career centers, usually when somebody raises their hand and says I'm having a hard time.
They're told, sh don't talk about it. You don't have the right attitude.
You know, that's not encouraged in these places most of the time. And so where does all that negativity go, You know, you internalize it or you know, comes.
Down in weird places.
And so that's one lesson that I think is like kind of common sense but also really important to remember for all kinds.
Of problems that you face.
Is like the importance of being able to share and vent in a safe space.
I interviewed a woman recently. She wrote a book about dark moods and their benefit. In it, she described an experience she had of reading a book that's gonna take me a second of set up, but I think it's actually going to be worth it. If not crystal cut it all out. But she's described, you know, a woman who is getting back into the job market after having been a parent, right and so kids are going off to school. She's been out of the job market for
twenty years. She's older, and she's expressing to her husband and son her concerns that her skills aren't really up to date. And she knows that you know, older women it's harder for them to get hired and all of this, right, And her husband and son just are saying to her, No, no, you're wonderful, you're great, You're going to be just fine, right, And the psychologist who was writing the book was describing how they were right, and she had what the psychologist
was calling a negative explanatory style. The woman writing this book had a big problem with this, right. She was like, well, but of course there's discrimination against women of a certain age, and you don't have you like, of course, she's right, And I'm reading it thinking, well, they're both actually right in a way, right, And this is exactly what we're talking about. If she complain lely internalizes that attitude, then yes, she's going to have a hard time finding a job.
And yet if she doesn't, if nobody recognizes those factors, she's going to think that she's all the problem. And the answer turned out to be relatively simple, right, which was that what she needed was her husband to just say, yeah, I understand, you know that's frightening, that's hard. Of course, yes, I bet it. You know it's going to be harder for you than it might be, say for me, if I was to go look for a job, like that's
all true, and then she's heard. Because when we're not heard on stuff like that, what my experience is is we end up arguing for our own limitations. We end up trying to convince everybody that we're right, that it really is that bad and that hard. Whereas most people, if that difficulty is acknowledged, then we can move on
to solution. But if nobody will acknowledge that difficulty, we end up arguing for or instead of them being able to move into this piece you talked about, which is like, Okay, how do I prepare for the marathon not the sprint?
That's really interesting.
Yeah, it reminds me of this experience that I would have again and again after my layoff, where with friends and family, people you know, who love me and want the best for me, When I would talk about my feelings of shame, despair, you know, and maybe being a little melodramatic whatever, people would sort of cheerlead me sometimes and sort of be like no, no, no, like you got this, like you'll be fine.
Look at how much experience you have. Da da da da da. And it always bugged me.
Like it always made me so it's just like no, no, no, like yeah, I know, and also like these are my feelings right now, and I'm allowed to feel these negative feelings right and like I know you want it to be okay, you want to put a band aid on it, but like we don't know if that's gonna happen, like
if I will come out of this. It's almost like you want some acknowledgment of your reality, your emotional and material reality, so that you don't feel insane, yes, so that you don't feel like people are trying to crowd.
Out your feelings.
This whole experience with my layoff has really taught me that when people in my life are going through a hard thing, I just listen. I don't try to say, oh, you must be feeling X or oh it'll be fine. I try to listen first to what they're saying, you know, because I think we're uncomfortable with like those kinds of hard feelings, because we want the people in our life to be okay.
Of course. Yeah.
One other thing I'm thinking about to go back to this myth of meritocracy is there's been some interesting research. It's very preliminary, there's some research that suggests that when people don't expect to be laid off, they are more emotionally wrecked than people who are aware of the possibility.
And I think this gets at the same kind of thing we're talking about, where it's like just knowing, having a kind of realistic view on like what could happen, helps prepare you more for the possibility, so you're not totally destabilized if it happens. And I think, like, yes, you know the myth and meritocracy, it's half true, it's
half not true. And also it's a comforting story to tell yourself because then if you have control if you work hard, if you're telling yourself that if you work hard, you will be safe, if you do a good job, you will be safe, then you can have control in this volatile, scary economy where people can be laid off
and fired because we have at will employment right. That was like one of the biggest lessons for me from all of this reporting was like, oh, Okay, it could be not motivating to think, oh, if I do a good job, I still might be laid off. I was afraid that I might kind of go in that direction of like oh, like, well, then what's the point and kind of throw my hands up in the air, and I found that that's not where I am right now.
Like I don't have a salary job right now, you know, I'm doing my own thing, shooting my shot with this new podcast. But I just I think that reality, even if it hurts, it is generally always more helpful than the like false story.
That's comforting.
I tend to agree. I think what's interesting about that is, like many things we're talking about, is this balance, right, Because if we were really grasp and spend a lot of time thinking about how truly out of control we are in this world, it would be paralyzing and we would never get out of bed, right. I mean, because, as a poet Mark Nepo calls it, the terrible knowledge that anything can happen to anyone any time is true. You can't live in that constant recognition of that fact,
or you'd be a basket case. And yet there's some amount of recognition of that that's really useful, right, to really realize, Like, yeah, like life is a frightening and scary place, and terrible things happen to really good people all the time, and good things happened to bad people, and average things happen to average people, like it just all happens, and so it's interesting. I think getting laid off at the age that I did, I was twenty eight,
my wife was six months pregnant with my son. I mean, it was a terrifying experience. I think that there was something about that that just I from that moment on did not believe that my safety came from a company. And I remember, I mean, I worked in software startup companies, so I guess for a while you do that, you just kind of know, like, well, the odds are pretty good,
this thing is not going to make it. I went on to do consulting for these really big big companies, Fortune one hundred, Fortune five hundred companies, and my mom would be like, I wish they would hire you. And I'd be like, they actually offered to hire me, and I said no, and she's like, you're crazy. And I was like, Mom, do you think that working for this company is like safe? Do you actually think that, like the fact that they hired me as an employee is safety.
It's not anymore. I understand in your day and age perhaps it was, but it's not anymore, you know. And I felt like the fact that I was a consultant and knew that I was going to need to prove to somebody else anywhere from three months to six months to a year from now that I was worth hiring
was more safety. Again, there's no complete safety, but it was more safety because I just assumed that sooner or later they're going to be done with me and I'm going to have to go convince somebody else, And so I just always felt like the fact that I knew that made me stay a little bit more on top of certain things. It's not that any of its safety, but I think there was a I'm not counting on a company to take care of me, because I don't think that's a safe bet anymore in today's world. I'm
not demonizing companies. I'm just saying that, like, as we know, if they need to cut costs, they're going to cut costs, and if you happen to be part of that, you're going to be gone.
Yeah.
I'm curious if your relationship with risk changed after that moment, because my relationship with risk has changed as a result of my layoff. Like I would say that I am a pretty risk averse person generally speaking, you know, maybe it's like being the daughter of immigrants, who are the children of refugees.
Like it's just like I want to be safe.
We need to have we need to have savings, we need to security very important to like my operating system. After like kind of the quote unquote worst thing professionally happened. I know it's not the worst thing, but like it's one of the worst things. Just losing your job kind of liberated me from this kind of grasping need to control and be safe. This new thing that I'm doing, which is starting a podcast. I mean, it's not a good time to start podcast. I really might fail. I
probably will fail, but I'm having fun doing it. I'm learning a lot, and it's okay if I fail.
Like I think it has.
Really rewired my relationship with failure and just like my tolerance for it and my tolerance for risk.
I'm grateful for that.
Actually, yeah, it's hard for me to know what recalibrated my relationship with risk. I was a homeless HEROD at twenty five, so I clearly wasn't playing anything safe to begin with. But this job was my first attempt to try and be safe. And it was interesting because when
I got laid off. I actually did gamble a little bit because it was given severance, and I applied for unemployment, and I recognized also that there was job retraining money available, and so I took some of the severance and some of that money, and I invested in a series of software related courses, thinking like I might be able to actually come out of this even better off, which it turned out to be the case. And so I think I was taking a risk then and then working in
software startup companies. Like I said, after that, I think I just you do that long enough, your relationship to it is just very different.
It's like the water you swim in, Yeah.
It is. It is the water you swim into a certain degree. And so I think I just over the years built more and more of a tolerance for it. Although it's interesting as I get older, I'm finding my risk tolerance becoming a little bit more like, well, hold on a second, like, do you realize like the chance that you know this is you know, I mean running a podcast, right, Like we're in a pretty good position as a podcast, and yet it is hard out there.
It is harder than it's ever been out there, and there's risk you know there's there's risk I am aware of very regularly.
Yeah, yeah, I don't know.
It's like has really made me want to shoot my shot more in general, Like I feel like it has kind of unleashed. It's kind of like aggressive, but like not in a bad way. I hope we'll see, but just like just kind of this version of me that's like, yeah, like I'm gonna go for it, and it's okay if I fail, Like I have already failed on my face in a very public way, So why not shoot my shot? Why not try? And yeah, I just feel less afraid Now.
Yeah, I think that's good. I think that's good. I think that's ideally the way to move to the best of our ability. We're about out a time, but I would be remiss if I did not at least ask you about one of the things that you did as part of this project is you decided to create a layoff song. This sounds a little bit like the YOEI Spa. But you decided to create a layoff song.
It's exactly like the Yo A Shpa. I have discovered that I'm really into inventing weird rituals as a way of healing. So basically what happened was I was laid off, feeling bad, trying all kinds of things to try to feel better, reporting a series about it, doing this yoa SHPA and massaging my friends, like doing a lot to try to feel better. And I have to say, like six months after the layoff, I was still.
Feeling really really bad.
I'd really it was not much further than I was at the very beginning, and that kind of bummed me out. And then I had this recital coming up. So like one of my hobbies is I pole dance. I'm not good, it's just for fun. My studio has this like very cute, kind of nerdy seasonal recital where you can do like
a solo or a group dance or whatever. And so I had a recital coming up, and I had signed up to do like a solo thing and you have to choreograph your own thing, and I'd never done it before, and I was like.
What am I gonna do? What am I gonna do? Which song am I gonna choose? And I was like, I know what I'll do.
I need to do like an interpretive layoff dance because that sounds fun to me, and I'll dress up in a clean xbox, and it'll just be this ridiculous kind of joyous reclamation of this whole situation. And so then I started looking for layoff songs to dance too. Maybe not surprisingly, there are not that many layoff songs out there.
It is not a well developed genre as yet.
Well the depths of country music. You sure, there's not more out there.
I know what I should have, but you know what I was saying, I sure, but also I'm not sure that would match the vibe of my fourreography. So anyways, I was like, why not just make my own layoff song, Like we're already here, why not go all the way. And I'm very lucky to have a music producer as a husband who can make it so, and so he helped me out and we made this ridiculous song called
gold Star. And the reason why it's titled gold Star is because after I got laid off, I remember like people would do all kinds of nice things for me. Send me fried chicken. I love fried chicken. People would like, get me a massage. I love massage, just like all these nice things, but like what I really wanted, if I'm being honest, was a trophy.
Okay, I just wanted.
Like a trophy to my self esteem, like something to combat the like negative voices in my head. It like, basically, I want a gold star to sort of combat what I'm feeling. And so this is like I'm hoping it finds laid off folks. You know, this is sort of a gold star, Like I'm soothing myself and hopefully you know, this can be a gold star for you. And then I made this ridiculous pull dancing video that is available online right now, though it might not be forever because
I might come to my senses. I decided to pull it from the internet.
If it's still out there when this episode releases, we'll put a link in the show notes. I've heard the song, I have not yet watched the video. The thing that made me laugh the most during that process, though, I mean every part of it is great and funny, was your husband introducing you to auto tune, which is a way of, you know, trying to make those of us who don't sing very well sound coherent. And it's so funny because he was like, I've never seen my computer
have to work this hard. And it's funny because this is quite some time ago. It probably at least fifteen years ago. I went to a friend's house in Tennessee and I used to be a songwriter, and so I had some songs and I was trying to sing, and we got what must have been a very early version of auto tune.
Right.
It was a box. You didn't plug it into your computer. And the running joke basically after that was that like anytime it tried to process me, the box would start smoking. It had to work so hard. So when he said I've never seen this machine work this hard, I had a good laugh. I was like, I've been there.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, auto tune is my friend. Thank God for autotune. Yes, there's no way I would have the courage to have sung that song or put it on the Internet without the help of a lot of autotune.
As we wrap up, I'm curious, out of all the valuable ideas we've explored today, what's the single most impactful insight that resonates with you listener. For me, it's about relationships. Many of us grapple with relationship issues in silence, uncertain how to mend the cracks, the reality cultivating a fulfilling relationship isn't solely about compatibility or fate. It's about developing crucial interpersonal abilities. How's that for a fancy phrase? Basically
means we can improve our relationships. And here's a quick tip for you. Focus on active listening. Make a conscious effort to listen more than you speak in your next conversation, focusing entirely on understanding the other person's perspective. Being a good listener goes a long way in making our relationships better. This month's newsletter focuses on relationships. Get practical exercises, reflections, and podcast links to nurture your connections. Sign up at
goodwolf dot me slash relationships. Thousands are already benefiting from these tips. Join us in fostering stronger relationships at goodwolf dot me slash relationships. All right, well we are going
to wrap up now in the post show conversation. We're going to talk a little bit longer because I want to talk about You've launched this new podcast to report on this, but there was an interim step in there along the way that ended up I think being the hardest maybe emotional moment for you of this whole journey, and i'd like to talk about that a little bit in the post show conversation listeners as always, if you would like access to that, if you would like access
to add free episodes, a special episode I do each week called a teaching song and a poem. And to be part of our community, we have community meetings once a month. We'd love to have you be part of the community. You can do that by going to oneufeed dot net slash join yowai. Thank you so much. This has been really enjoyable from top to bottom.
Thank you for having me. This was so fun. Thank you for listening to my song and not judging me too harshly.
No, it's a good pop song.
If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community with this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members only benefits. It's our way of saying thank you for your support.
Now.
We are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support, and we don't take a single dollar for granted. To learn more, make a donation at any level and become a member of the one you Feed community. Go to oneufeed dot net slash join The One You Feed podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting the show