Gabriele Oettingen

and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Yeah, thanks for joining us. Our guest today is Gabrielle Ettingen, a professor of psychology at New York University and the University of Hamburg. Gabrielle's research focuses on how we think about the future and

how this impacts our cognition, emotion, and behavior. Much of Gabrielle's research has been implemented into her Fantastic website whoop my life dot org. Gabrielle's first book, Rethinking Positive Thinking, was published in two thousand fourteen. Here's the interview. Hi Gabrielle, Welcome to the show. Hey, thank you for having me. Thanks for taking the time to talk with us. I know you're in Germany, so it's pretty late there, so I appreciate you staying up late for us. Well, my pleasure.

So our podcast is called The One You Feed, and it's based on the parable of two Wolves, where there's a grand father who is talking with his grandson and he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like

greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second, and he he looks up at his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. Well, you know, my work is the work of a scientist, and UM, what does the scientist do? UM? He hopes to discover and he hopes to learn UM, and he hopes to get involved

in what what's actually happening and UM. You know, the good side is that UM you get a lot of meaning out of discovering things you didn't know before. And you get a lot of meaning out of UM then taking these discoveries and UM telling other people and UM letting other people share. So I always had a lot of fun of just sort of learning more from UM, from the data and UM from all the surprises you get when you're a scientist and UM. And lately I had a lot of UM joy UM sharing these discoveries

and seeing how people benefit from it. And that's the reason why I wrote the book. UM you're thinking positive thinking because UM, you know there's a message in there where I think people can benefit from and where I benefited a lot of from and UM people around me, and I saw my participants in the experiments benefiting from So that's that's UM. You know this the kind of meaningful and trusting and pleasurable side UM or the wolf who is kind of UM, you know, trying to make

men excellent. Well, your book is called Rethinking, Positive Thinking, Inside the New Science and Motivation, and I think I first came across your work certainly before I saw the book, and I think it was perhaps Oliver Berkman was one of our very first guests, and I think he referenced your research. I think he did either in his book or in an article he wrote. So um, he was

our second guest. So I had I had heard of you in your research a while ago, and when I saw that your book was out, I definitely wanted to have have a chance to talk with you. And so you mentioned in your intro there that one of the things you like about your work is is finding surprises. And I think that your research early on lead you

into a surprise. I think you were in the book you say that you were very interested in the way people think and they're dreaming, and you thought that that sort of thing led to positive end results for them, and then when you started to do the research, you kind of came to a different conclusion. Can you share a little bit about what that research involved in what it led you to? Sure? Um, No, I was interested in in hope very early on. I was interested in hope.

And I defined hope differently from UM what people in psychology defined hope. I defined hope UM kind of according to UM Black, sort of saying, you know, you have these kind of positive spirits and and the dreams despite that the odds are really bad and UM and UM. At that time this was the end of eight Days. In the beginning of the nineties, hope and optimism was actually UM kind of blurred and was kind of sort of defined as thing. And I thought, this, this is

different and UM. In psychology, optimism was mostly defined as the likelihoods of whether there's certain events and behaviors happen in the future or not. So these were judgments people had about the likelihood that certain things will happen in the future. UM. But I thought there might be another way of thinking about the future, which is daydreaming and kind of just sort of imagining um the events and the behaviors of the future. And so I just differentiated

these two ways of thinking about the future. And at the beginning, I thought, you know, we know that optimism in terms of expectations, UM, since these expectations are based on past performance, that they predict high effort and success. So I thought, probably these positive day dreams will predict

effort and success as well. But then UM I did a study and what came out was that the more positively the participants, which were overweight women who were enrolled in a weight production program, the more positively they fantasized and day dreamt about the success in the weight loss program, the few pounds they lost so um part of the thinking suddenly led to low effort and low success. UM. So they lost few pounds three months and one year and even two years later, And so I thought I

might have made a mistake here. Positive dreaming has kind of um problematic consequences. But then we did more and more and more um um studies and we found the same pattern over and over again. So, for example, the more positively UM university graduates fantasized about an easy transition into work life, UM, the fewer dollars they earned two

years later and the fewer job offers to God. Or the more positively students fantasized about getting involved with the person of the opposite sex they were kind of um, kind of in love with, they had a crush on, the lower the likelihood that they actually got together with that person and so on. Also in the healthy area, the more positively hip replacement surgery patients fantasized about UM an easier recovery UM, the less well they did as

judged by the physical therapists UM three weeks later. So it seems that these positive dreams and fantasies are pleasant at the moment, but over time they actually hurt the effort and they hurt the success to actually realize these positive fantasies. So they have good if you want for the pleasure, and they're relaxing. So we know, for example, that we induce these positive fantasies and daydreams and people relax, so the blood pressure goes down as compared to, for example,

factual thoughts or questioning fantasies or negative fantasies or nothing. UM. So these positive fantasies relax you the pleasant at the moment, but in the long run, UM, they impede you from actually achieving these fantasies in real life. Your statement is pretty clear in the book that you you said, my research is confirmed that merely dreaming about the future makes people less likely to realize their dreams and wishes. That's

that's exactly right. So UM, you know, I can use these positive fantasies to explore all the possibilities of the future or to just have pleasure when when I'm sitting at the beach and there's nothing to do. Actually, but when it really comes to realizing and kind of attaining these wishes, then I better watch out, and I watch out that I also consider the obstacles in me that impede me for actually realizing these positive dreams and fantasies.

And that's what we learned from our participants. Because those who merely dreamt about the future, they actually were less likely to reach them. But those who are also considered the obstacles, the hindrance system temptations on the way to reaching these wishes, they did much better. So actually, what we what we did is then we build a theory on on what we learned from our participants in the early studies. I want to just spend another brief minute on this UM fantasizing, and I think you you do

talk about in certain cases fantasizing is UM. It's useful for certain needs, it's useful for certain things, but it's not useful with anything that requires significant effort, energy, or commitment. So what are some of the good uses of of these positive fantasies. Well, you can use these positive fantasies to kind of explore in your mind the possibilities of

the future. So, for example, UM, you have the fantasy of becoming a doctor or becoming a lawyer or something, so you can explore in your mind all the different tasks and all the different situations of doctor or lawyer uh may may encounter. So let's say you have, UM, throughout your generations, your family, UM, you know, they produced doctors. You're from a family who's just traditionally a medical family, so it's clear you should go and become a doctor

as well. So you imagine what it would be like to be to become a doctor as a young person, and then um, you think about how wonderful it would be to you know, sit on the bed and sort of help the people to recover and um, to do the surgery or what have you. Just sort of how exciting it would be to help people, and um, to be proficient in in your job, or you might think about it's not is to have you know, to be an accomplished tructor, but actually I don't really like hospitals

and the smells. I don't like it at all, and um, you know I don't want to sit there in the nights all along with all these patients. And so you can explore these possibilities and suddenly you feel maybe that's not for me, that's not something where I belong on which belongs to me. So you you explore in your mind and you can explore the possibilities of the future and then see what belongs to you and what the way your wishes really are. So that's one way you

can use these positive fantasies. Another way is if you you know, if you need to wait, and um, you are in a bad mood. So just you know, positively fantasize about something easy going and you might get a better mode. But I don't expect that you then actually realize these positive fantasies. And then certainly positive fantasies are helpful if there is no way you can act. So if you have no possibilities to act your you're in a situation where you cannot actually achieve these vershes nor

can you disengage from these wishes. So then positive fantasies are helpful too. But if you have the possibility to actually achieve them. And if you are in a situation where you can act, then the sheer positive fantasizing impedes you from acting because you fain already being there. You think, you're ups, I'm already there. You mentally enjoy the positive future and forget that it's not there yet and that you need to overcome these obstacles and temptations and the

relinquishment to actually go all the way. And so you go in your book from this sort of initially thinking, Okay, maybe these dreams or fantasies, uh are are you know? The conventional wisdom is that these are helpful to get into your goals. And then you realize, well, maybe that's not the case. And uh, but you didn't really stop there.

You kind of you you went on to the next stage, which is where you sort of came up with something that you call mental contrasting, which is where you still use the desire or the fantasy, but then you also use this technique called mental contrasting as a way to push you forward towards those goals. Can you describe what mental contrasting is? Yeah, exactly, Um, this is what we learned from our participants. So mental contrasting is first designing

in your mind the positive future. So you do you look at a wish which is actually very dear to you. So you you do find a wish which is actually something that is important to you, not just anything, but something where you feel, this is really my wish. And what you do then is you imagine the wish coming true and you imagine the best outcome. You define the best outcome, and then you imagine the best outcome, and after you mentally experienced the best outcome, which is actually

what we just talked about, the positive fantasies. Once you imagine that and you mentally experience the positive future, then you switch gears and then you say, mm hmm, what holds me back from achieving the switch and experiencing that outcome? What is it in me that stops me from going that way and from trying to achieve the wish and experiencing that outcome. What is my personal my inner obstacle?

And and that's what metal contrasting is. So you design the future something which you really want, and then you switch gears and say, what is the resistance? What is the obstacle in me that stands in the way. And once you do that, you define the obstacle, and you identify the obstacle, and then you imagine the obstacle, and once you do that, you understand whether you can overcome the obstacle and actually achieve you wish or whether the obstacle is so formidable. Did you say no, I don't

want to do that. I don't want to actually put all it put all the effort in there. Um Either I don't want to do that, so it's not worth actually going all the way. But then you know that your energy and your resources are better for something else, or you can also adjust you wish. So what mental contrasting really is the contrasting of the positive future with

the obstacles in me that stands in the way. And once you do that, it's creating very clear whether and you can overcome the obstacular achieve the wish, and then you will really commit and go there and and do the planning and all the relinquishment to actually achieve the wish. And if the obstacle is too big, um, either you don't want to because something else is more important, or you cannot, then you say, okay, so get it. This

was too big of a fantasy. Let's go and postpone or delegate do it another time, or just lets go from the fantasies. But then you can let go from the fantasies with a good conscience and you can actually invest in something else. So it's a way to kind of clean up. It's you can clean up your desk with it, but you can also clean up your life by prioritizing, um, what is really belonging to you and what you can do, and um, what is not so

important to you, and to actually and not do. And this is really where I think what you're talking about takes that deviation from from the positive thinking, because the positive thinking idea is I think you're, you know, everything's kind of aligned on this, all right, let me think about what I want and let me fantasize about what I want. But the positive thinking thing is really about not imagining that anything could stand in your way and very much being like, well, I can have anything or

I can do anything. And what I really like about the approach that you're bringing here is too is that you are, um, you're being realistic about what's happened. And I think that's what I really like and you talk

about that. What's so helpful about this is that you are bringing together both the wish then the reality in this mental contrasting, and the studies that you did showed that this was a much more that people were much more effective in reaching their goals when they when they brought those two things together, the dream and the fantasy and then the reality or the obstacles that needed to be overcome. That's right. I mean, you can say why

are we motivated? After mental contrasting? Now you can say what is motivation? Motivation is energy and you get the energies for mental contrasting because you see, there is resistance, so you need to have some energy to get over the resistance. Energy and direction. So the positive fantasies bring the direction and the resistance the obstacles that are in the way of reaching the positive fantasies they give the energy.

So that is what motivation really is all about. You get the energy to go in a certain direction, namely to achieve your your wish. And that's the reason why mental contrasting is really helpful in terms of you know, sort of going loving it, doing it, and really sort of reaching it. Then and then leaving it um so that you get your energy free and you get freed of all these kind of lingering goals which which are on your mind and you never succeed to actually reach them,

but you don't actually leave them either. So it's this kind of feeling of being overwhelmed and being kind of burned, and this kind of kind of feeling of upcoming burnout. So you can you can actually help these feelings go away by using mental contrasting on a daily basis. And what we did then is just sort of complement the mental contrasting exercise with adding a plan which is in the scientific literature called implementation intention, which has been discovered

by Peter Goal Routes. And what that does is then once are identified, imagine the obstacle and I know now what to do in order to overcome the obstacle, I can actually add a plan which makes it even more effective to overcome that obstacle, in the form if the obstacle occurs, then I will perform the behavior to overcome

the obstacle. So for example, if I'm let's say I have to wish UM to do really well at a talk or something, and UM, and then the best outcome would be I would be so relieved and kind of more efficacious, and um, then I imagine how wonderful it would be, how relieved I would feel if I had succeeded at that talk. Let's say my obstacle which I identify. If I'm kind of honest to me and with a little bit of humor, I could say, Okay, I'm really anxious.

I'm really anxious sort of you know, giving this talk in front of that audience. And then I could say okay, and imagine the anxiety, and then what what could I do to overcome that anxiety? Well, I could tell myself, well, this is really something which I did quite a few times. I succeeded to speak in front of our audience, so

there's really no reason to be anxious. And then you can put a plan behind it, and you could say, now, if the feeling of anxiety creeps up, then I will tell myself, come on, you did in the past really well, so this will work again. So so it is um a way of of complimenting the mental contrasting with adding

on a plan. And that is what we define as whoop, and it's just an acronym for this fourth step process, it's wish outcome, and then you need to imagine the outcome and then you identify the obstacle in you get rid of all the excuses as you say, now what is it in me that stands in the way, and you imagine that personal obstacle in you? And then you say, okay, if obstacles occurs, then I will perform the behavior to

overcome that obstacle. And um, you know, I give a lot of kind of little exercises and also all the scientific literature of how mental contrasting and implementation intentions or WHOOP works, how it actually achieves the behavior change in the book. Um, but but these little exercises helped you to understand how you can put your own wishes and your all outcomes and your all obstacles and your own plan into these four steps structure. So because what what

really does? It gives the structure, but it doesn't give the content. The content needs to be filled in by the person. So it kind of liberates the person to sort of um be their own kind of coach and the train and their own therapists. Because what what what really does? It allows you to change your behavior? Um, but the content needs to be filled in by you with your own wishes belonging to world right. So you so let's let's go back just a little bit there.

So we talked about the mental obstacles, and then you added something to it that you picked up from another researcher and was really this what you just describe as the implementation intention, which is really, like you said, it's the it's the plan of if. Then so you're thinking about your obstacles, and if one of the obstacles is that every time I come home from work, I'm suddenly very hungry, and that's when I'm likely to overeat. So if I come home from work and I feel really hungry,

then I will do why thing. And one of the things that I thought was interested in the book you talked about that maybe you could share a little bit about this was that you talk about the difference between the conscious and the unconscious mind and that something about this implementation intention helps to reach the unconscious part of

ourselves that often gets in our way. Can you talk about how that what the mechanism is there sure and the the the whoop exercise, whether it's the whish outcome obstacle or whether it's the the p the plan um,

the whole exercise works via the nonconscious. So what we know is that when we do whoop whish outcome obstacle, even without the plan what what the What happens is that this kind of conscious imagery exercise produces changes in the cognition which are outside of our awareness, and it produces changes in motivation which are outside of our aware. And so for example, um, when we do where we take a wish which is feasible, then we do the woo exercise. What happens is then that the future and

the reality are connected. So the future and the obstacle are now connected, so that I cannot dream anymore without that the obstacles immediately appears in the mind. And not only that the future and the reality or the future and the obstacles are connected. Now also the obstacle and

the instrumental means to overcome the obstacles are connected. And in addition, the reality the obstacle is now a real obstacle, so it's not For example, a fun party is now no fun party anymore when it is kind of complimented to the wish of doing well on an exam. Let's say on Tuesday. Now the party is not a fun thing anymore, but it's an obstacute to doing well on the exam on Tuesday. So there are a lot of

non conscious changes which then predict the behavior change. So these non conscious changes they mediate the effects of that conscious imagery exercise, which is what onto behavior change. So these the imagery exercise works via the nonconscious onto behavior change.

And that's also true for implementation attention. So if I say, if obstacles, then I will, the connection between the obstacle of the reality and the instrumental means to overcome the obstacle is even more strengthened than when I do only wo So UM. This this plan is particularly important then when the when the obstacle is very hard to overcome. Um,

and and then and the nice thing. It is not only that cognition outside of awareness is changed as a result of the imagery exercise of who it's also the motivation. So for example, my blood pressure goes up if I do whoop, and then the blood pressure changes they predict

actually the behavior changes later on. UM. So it seems that um it's a kind of practically exercise because they do the conscious imagery exercise that sort of puts into gears all these non conscious, outside of awareness processes, and

they then change my behavior. So when you do oh open the morning, for example, and you you you go through the day and you think about tons of other things, and then in the evening you think, I had a pretty good UM encounter today with my colleague and actually I started my paper and I had a really good dinner with my son or something. And then you think back and I said, wasn't that what I worked this morning?

Wasn't that what my wish was for the day, That I have a kind of easy encounter with my colleague, that I sort of you know, start my paper, and that I have a nice family dinner. And um. So you you the consequences of the whoop are such that you don't even need to think about it. But later on you think that the kind of you know, the body did it for you, and that's fun because you feel, um, you know, you did this exercise, and then if you did it without that you were aware of what you did.

So whoop is UM wish outcome obstacle plan? Can you walk us through maybe can we use UM try and do an example of of how this would work, So maybe you could walk me through one of my own. Oh, absolutely all right. So let's pretend that I want to, uh, I want to learn to play the guitar solo to Sultans of Swing by Dire Straits. That's my wish. So how would we what? What is the what? Because you talk about mental imagery, which is something that I'm not typically,

something that I don't understand real well. So can you talk about where we would start with this? Say, if this was a a dream, it's a small one, but a dream that I had. Um, so that's a dream. So that's your wish. Is that a wish which is actually dear to you? It's a real wish? Yeah, it is, And it has real obstacles in my case, which is that I can't play guitar very well. And Mark Nfler can play guitar better than most people on the planet.

So there's a there's some real obstacles there too. But yes, it is a wish. Well, is it isn't a wish which is very dear to you? And is it a wish which is feasible too? I think it's feasible, and it's kind of dear to me. Yeah, okay, great, So what would be the best outcome if you fulfilled yourself that wish? I would finally stop feeling like Chris is

always a better guitar player than me. Now, um, I think it would be a real sense of um, you know, personal satisfaction to play something that I didn't think necessarily I ever would, or something that I thought was one of the most impressive pieces of music. Okay, so can you summarize for me this two to three words? What would be the best outcome? I think feeling m proud

and accomplished? Very good? Okay, great, Now if we did a real whoop, Now, I would ask you to probably close your eyes and um, I would tell you, okay, I gui just through that. Then I would ask you to imagine this feeling of accomplishment and you would really need to imagine that how that feels. And you would probably close your eyes and just sort of go like we talked about the positive fantasies and danger, and you would just sort of go on and just experience that

in your mind. Do that for a second, okay, okay, all right, And now I would I would ask you to wake up and open your eyes and and I would ask you, actually, what hold you back from doing that? What is it in you that stands in the way of fulfilling that question, experiencing that accomplishment? What is it in you that stops you from doing that, spending the concentrated amount of time, to do it on a consistent basis, and to stick with it when it feels hard? Okay?

Can you summarize that for me in two to three words? Giving up in the face of frustration and lack of progress? Mm hmm. So what is it frustration or is it the getting up? What is it two words to three words? What is it in you that stands in the way? What is your obstacle? If you dig it a little deeper, what what is it in you? Lack of persistence? Mm hmm, it's lack of persistence. But why do you like the persistence? Now? This is getting a whole lot deeper than I anticipated.

All right, um, sure you don't want to do this, Chris, Um? What is it in me? Boy? I don't know how to answer that. I think that if I think about this in the context of playing the guitar in the past, I tend to come across something that is challenging and when I can't do it after a couple easy tries, I just sort of move on to something else. Okay, So I don't know what is that in me? You're the You're the author and the researcher. I'm not the

author and researcher now, and that's really important. In I can't tell you you need to find yourself, but you kind of already sort of said it, But I can't tell you from the outside. I can't tell you, um, because you need to find that you know best, and that's the idea of what you need to find your own obstacle. And you can dig deeper and say, now, what is it in me? And once you find that obstacle, you really relieve. So try try once more and say,

what is it in me that holds me back? And if you dig a little bit bit, what is it in you that holds you back from doing that and from feeling that accomplishment? What is it? Really? Well, I think it's kind of what I've identified, a tendency to give up and a lack of focus. So maybe it's some of it seems like maybe not keeping the goal clearly enough in mind. Okay, So it's a lack of focus? Why why do you it's like this giving up? So so now you could say, now why do I have

this lack of focus? Then, and you can you can explore that for yourself, or you can stop short here and say, okay, it's a lack of focus, and then you can do say how the new imagine that lack of focus? Let's say that would be your obstacle. But certainly when you when you're then outside of that podcast, you can sort of um dig deeper on your on your own and say why is it that I have

this lack of focus? But let's say we stop short here and say, you know, I have this lack of focus, and then you imagine how it feels to have this lack of focus, and you close your eyes again, and you can sort of really sort of um, yeah, just imagine to have this lack of focus. How how that feels, this lack of focus. So I would say, close your eyes and imagine that like a focus again. Okay, okay, okay, and then I would say I wake you up and let's go on, and I would ask you what can

you do to overcome that lack of focus? What would be an effective behavior you can perform or an effective thought you could think in order to overcome that lack of focus? What could you do? I think I could commit to working on working on it a certain amount of time every day, regardless of how I'm progressing. Perfect, Okay, And now you can do this extent statement. So when will be this lack of focus? When will that come again?

And where will it appear again? Oh? I think it comes first thing in the morning when I wake up every day. Now, um, in the context of your yeah, I think it will come when. I mean, I think it will be there. I think there'll be to two places. One will be making the time to force myself to sit down and do it, and then the second will be to um when I get stuck to not move

on to something different or start. You know. The tendency for me when I'm doing something like that is I can't figure out this one small passage, so instead I just start, you know, playing some other thing that I know how to play. That's easier. Right, So when will that happen? Tomorrow? Yes? When tomorrow night? Okay? Where in my office at my house? Perfect? Okay. So now you

can have an instant statement. You say, if obstacle tomorrow night in my office in my house, then I will, and now you put your behavior in which you said, so make that if then statement, if, and now repeat to yourself your obstacle when it occurs and where it occurs.

So if tomorrow night, in my office learning to play the solo, I get stuck and can't figure a part out, I will slow down and continue to play that same part over and over again for ten minutes, regardless of whether I feel like I'm making progress very nice exactly. I mean, what you could have done is just sort of put in the obstacle of the lack of focus

once more. But but it's fine like that, And now you would if we did that in reality, this will Now I would ask you, okay, repeat the if thense statement. Let's say again if and now imagine the obstacle, and you would imagine exactly what you just said in its time and in this place. Then I will, and now

you imagine the behavior. So I would just go through that if then statement, but do it sort of imagine it and seeing it in my head, me encountering the obstacle and then um doing the behavior that is the then part of it, and that's really it. And then what's the P part. So I've done the wish out that was the P. That is the plane, all right,

and that was the par. So now you have we went through a whoop and now you can actually say, Okay, now I know how to do work, and I do work kind of every day, and you can do wook for you know, a kind of big life wish, or you can do wook for whish for the next four weeks, or you can do whoop for um next week or for the next day, or let's say, for a meeting or for you know, being interviewed for a podcasts or whatever.

You could say, now, what is my wish for the next twenty four hours, what is my wish for tonight? What is my wish for that meeting? And then you go through this fourth step process just like we went through that, and actually we didn't. We did apps where you can one for for the kids and one for our dolls um. And these apps are really nice because

they force you to go through that. They give you all the instructions for the first step process, but they forced you to actually forwardlate you wish, your outcome, your obstacle on your plan in a few words, so you can't wheel it out. Um. And so these are apps for your your phone for example, Yeah, dude, you can download the one that I phone out and will definitely put links to those in the show notes that will be found. It's it's on the website which is called

what My Life dot org. So it's w O O P my life dot org. I think that pretty much covers what I wanted to talk through, and I think we are a little bit over time. That was that was good though, I think for for everybody except me who had to do that on air. But thank you very much for going through with it. I think it's a big service because it's it needs a lot of courage to go through that, um this process um kind

of on air um. But but it needs a little bit of courage even if you do it for you so because you need to have a little bit of you to sort of accept you know, you're obstacle. No, no lack of humor here, um, but no. I think that I just was really impressed as I as I went through the book and I and I read that and came up with that because I think that there is what I really got from it. And this exercise was was helpful, But how frequently I am extremely non

specific in every one of those steps. You know, what the real wish is, what the outcome would be like, what the obstacles are, and what the plan are. It's it's all sort of half formed in my mind a lot of the time. And so what I really liked was this was a methodology to walk through that, and I liked the part about taking the time to to stop and and really visualize what it would look like, what it would feel like, etcetera. So I'm I'm excited to uh to give this stuff a try. Great, we'll

have fun, um playing your piece. I'll play it on air for you here or someday. Thanks so much for staying up late. I know it's you know, got to be nearly one in the morning or after they're so thanks so much for taking the time to talk with us, and um, we'll be in touch again. Thank you so much for having me. All right, take care of and have a good TV YouTube. Okay. Thanks. You can learn more about Gabrielle Engen and this podcast at one new feed dot net, slash g o