Eric & Chris on Friendship

years in between. Welcome to the one you feed throughout time, great tinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true, and yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just

about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good Wolf welcome to the show. Chris, thank you, and Jenny well, thank you so much. We are doing uh special friendship episode. This podcast was formed largely out of the friendship between Chris and I and in honor of international or National Friendship Day,

which was sometime recently. We thought it would be fun to have an interview with Chris and I. It was Nicole's idea, wasn't it. It was Nicole, are are valuable part of the when you Feed team, Nicole. So that's what we're doing here. So I'm going to hand it over to Jenny, who is running the show. This feels very very new. I'm driving. I'm driving this time, alright, Jenny, don't forget to mention that the music we played at the beginning of the episode, That's what Friends Are For,

was sung by Nicole. Superman has a price out on my head for saying mentioning music. Though. It is worth saying that some people know this, but some may not. The intro music and all the music that shows up in all the breaks is recorded by either you or me, or most frequently the two of us. That's right and written by us, written written by written, recorded, performed for better and worse yeah, some are really weird, but I

like the weird ones. Yep. No, it's good. It's music being a unifying theme here that we'll certainly get to, but before we do, I just want to set the stage a little bit. Here. We are at Eric and ice house, and um, we've got Lola in one chair, We've got Chris and Eric on the couch, and I'm sitting here in a chair and it's I don't know, mid morning on a Thursday. Um, we've just been listening to a playlist that Eric had put together that is made up of songs that are important to Chris and

Eric from a friendship perspective. For the two of them throughout the years, they've had some significance to kind of get in the mood here. And I will say that even as the first song on that playlist started, Eric got a little choked up here and thinking about how much Chris and their friendship means to whom I choked up she means bawling, literally, blubbering, crawling on the deck. The thought of having to spend an hour and a

half with you just reduced me to tears. Alright, alright, crying was why did we start this podcast and force ourselves to hang out. Alright, okay, okay, Well, let's get started like we always do talking about the parable. But I thought that maybe it would be interesting for you guys to answer what the parable means to you through the lens of friendship. Right, So what does it mean to you from a perspective of friendship? So, as we

all know, it goes like this. There was a grandparent talking with their grandchild and they said, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and one is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild thinks about it for a second and looks up and says, well, which one wins? And the grandparents says,

the one you feed. So I'd love to know what that parable means to you guys from a friendship perspective. I guess I'll go first, go for it, and then let you go. A couple of things come to mind. I mean. The first is that this podcast started, as I sort of alluded to earlier, largely because I thought it would be a fun thing for Chris and I to do together, and I think that speaks to some of what feeding our good Wolf means through the lens of friendship, which is that there is a togetherness and

there is a community that is really critical. When I started the show, I thought that what I would learn over and over from guests was how important the inner life was and to work inside myself, and that has been true. I've learned a ton about that and and had a lot of great conversations. But the thing that has showed up almost as equally that I did not expect was how important other people are in feeding our good wolf, and that trying to do it alone is

really difficult to do. And I see this in the coaching work I do with people over and over. When we try and do things alone, it's a lot harder. And so friendship is a way of not being alone. And I think that a good friendship we feed each other's good wolf. I mean, Chris and I have certainly uh fed each other's bad wolf plenty of times, but we've also probably on the whole much more often fed

each other's good wolf. And so I think having people in our lives that have a similar value system and have love and we can share love is just an important part of living a good life. Good answer, Good answer. Oh, let's see. Well, I always and only really can think of the parable as being about choice. And I think

there's some saying. I don't know where it came from, I guess, but it's something about how you are the average of you know, the five people or six people or something you see most often wherever that came from. Having the choice of who you hang out with could be included in that, which is huge. You know, do you want to grow? Do you want to have positivity in your life? Everything, which Eric certainly brings me. Like

you said, we have had our bad wolves together. Maybe sometimes like if we go into the story about your grandmother's liquor cabinet or something like that, that could just be one example of It's funny though. I was thinking about that, and I think we'll get to that. Early in our friendship, we did a lot of drinking together. But I had a memory also of that were I

was probably eighteen years old, maybe nineteen. I think I was eighteen when we met and started hanging out, and you and I said to each other, I love you, Yeah, And I had never had a male friend that I could say those kind of words to feel. So I think even as we were sort of feeding our bad wolves in some senses, there was some love underneath it that has existed through all the ups and downs, however many years. But I was just thinking about that that.

You know, it seems simpler now, like, yeah, of course you say I love you too, people, but this was and men, it was just it was a different time, and I just the fact we were a different age. You interpret that differently, Yeah, yeah, I just because I was able to say that to you and you kept your clothes on, which was really impressed. No, but it

is true. I think we always had something together that was more than just necessarily what we were doing right at the time, because we have turned that into something positive and long term, which is really wonderful. Right. A lot of friendships I had that really there was a lot of drinking and drugs involved in They didn't survive as I got sober and years and eyes has been there through all those ups and downs of sobriety, of action of recovery, you know, the cycles of it have

have survived. And why do you know, I'm not sure because I've had plenty of those types of relationships too that I would never have dreamed we're based on that, like drug use or something like that. I would have thought, oh, they would withstand stopping that, and I was wrong. So I'm not sure if I know truly why. Well, some of it I think is you do have an exceptional

gift for friendship. Even though I know you think of yourself as isolated in a loner like, you have more people who want to be around you and with you. You have a circle of friends that is enormous. Again, you don't need, but but you just are naturally good at it. So I think that's part of the equation, is that you're naturally good at it. Yeah, I've kept a lot of friends for a very long time. It's kind of amazing. Yeah. Yeah, I have fewer friends. I've

had them for a long time. Also, most of my friends I've had a long time, although I've met lots of people as i've done the show that I've started to build friendships with. You know, I don't know why. I think some of it is just unanswerable as to what causes a connection between two people. But I think partially there was a natural connection and a natural spark, and I think we've just made it important and we've talked about how important we are to each other and

over the years and made a real effort. And so some of it I think is conscious cultivation and some of it is just the connection that for some reason we have with certain people and circumstances that bring us back together. And you know, I don't know, but starting the show was that was a conscious act of cultivation for me of like I want to be with Chris more. Chris is an audio engineer. So I think it's a

little of soort. We think of the nature and nurture debate about things, and I would say, are you know what's made our friendships so special and so lasting? Some of it is nature, There was just an innate connection, and then some of it has been nurture. We've worked on it. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. So do you guys remember like when and how you met? Trying to remember really specifically. No, I mean there was a core

of friends that kind of all overlapped. Yeah, it's interesting because Chris and I went to the same high school, had very similar friends through high school, even went to a concert or two together. With that friend group, and I felt no connection to him, like we I remember. I think we went to Detroit once, and I know Steve would have been part of it. You were part of it. I was there. I mean, it's not that I didn't like you. I just didn't feel I just

didn't know each other. There was no residence there. I felt no. And then somehow it was in the late summer, probably after we graduated from high school. I don't know what caused us to hang out together one time, and we did, and then after that it was like we were together every day for months. It's true, every day, Like it just went on and on and on from there. Super interesting is that you Yeah, definitely yep. And I

do remember, yeah, going to a show. Did we also maybe go to the Replacements in Athens or was that a different forget what the Detroit show was, but I do remember that, Yeah, it could maybe it was in Detroit, it maybe it was. Maybe it was the Replacements in Athens. I just have a vague memory of walking down the street that were beating four of us. You were one of them, and just again just sort of a neutral feeling.

We just didn't know each other. But then it's interesting you went to a concert and that's kind of where you guys came alive from one another. And music has been such a central theme, so important. That definitely was a big part of right when we met. I mean we're music fanatics. Yep, yep. I was thinking about that

as I was listening to that playlist. How often the thing that we did together, the main activity that we did besides drinking, was you would pick up the guitar and we would We had just this small set of songs we would sing over and over together. So right from the beginning we were sort of performed, I mean not performing, because there was no performative aspect to it. It was just the joy of doing it, of doing it,

and we did it. I just feel like we did it all the time, and it was my favorite thing in the world. We did do that a ton, and we would often be sitting in the same hallway. Yeah, the specific hallway Eric's apartment. That must have had good reaver. It had great. It sounded so good in there, Like even I singing, I thought, that's sound good in here,

which just is not normally a thought I have. That's neat, that's neat to connect over a shared love of something, and that sounds like that's kind of where your friendship really started totally. Yeah, I would say a true shared love of music, certainly, a shared love of laughter, a very deep sense of human and then yeah, in the beginning, I think there was a deep love of of booze, and I think a deep love of recovery. Really like we have nurtured that together and talked about it a lot.

And yeah, one has been there when the other wasn't, vice versa a little bit. That's right, that's right. There have been times I was in recovery you weren't. There were times you were in recovery I wasn't, and a lot of time where we both have been. Well, we're going to get to that for sure. We actually have a few questions that were submitted from our membership community on Patreon, and so I definitely want to ask those in it and it gets to the heart of recovery

and addiction and your friendship. But before we get there, I'm just interested to hear Eric, what was Chris like in high school and then in these early years of your friendship, how would you describe him? Boy, I think in those early years The thing that I was struck with about Chris was he had a capacity to deeply appreciate eight things, Like he just all the time was like, this is awesome, this is great, this is you know, like I could just I mean even like orange juice

and food. And there was just an ability to appreciate things that I certainly don't think I had at that age, and I certainly admired it. I looked at it and I was like, Wow, that's a really great trait. And so just being around him made everything else that we

engaged in come alive for me in a way. And I think I've I think I learned that from Chris, and it's something I, you know, cultivate and we hear it in interviews we do with people over and over again about focus on the positive, focus on what's good in your life. You know, there are things that are negative. Of course, there's challenges in life, but there's lots of beauty and love and wonderful things in the ordinary things

of life. And I think I learned that initially from Chris. Yeah, so I'm gonna pose the same question, you'd become a dark dead soul I was when you were just saying that, I was like, I should probably get some of that trade back. I do kind of think that way, even against all odds. In my darkest moments, I like, I'm aware of it. Even myself, I still have this like interest in the details of things and why is something

really cool or interesting? I still notice it. When you eat you like you'll just be like, this is incredible. The second third of this bag of oreos is more delicious than the Chris that's not an entree. Okay, So I'm gonna pose the same question to you. So, how what was Eric like in high school and in these early years of your friendship? How would you describe him? I would describe Eric as really resourceful. That's what I

was impressed with. Like, you had started that program, and I was aware of that at school, at the alternative program where you were, I was kind of aware of these things. But Eric had this energy, which, interestingly enough, you still have this ability to like tap into energy and get things done, which I always find really interesting because I'm definitely more low energy and less productive of a human being without the synergy of doing it with

someone else. Yeah, and you always had that and still do that kind of driving force driving forward. Yeah in life. Yeah, it's interesting. Literally had it as a youngster. Yeah yeah, I love to recapture some of that energy. I still have it, but boy I had I definitely we were younger. I was fired up all the time. You really were. It was infectious. Yeah. I was gonna say that sounds awesome.

I would like to have more of that. All right, So what do you think listeners may or may not know about, say Chris Eric that you think it's central to who he is? Well, I think listeners know far less about Chris than they want to as a whole. And I know Chris always thinks no it's not true, but very very frequent, like in emails to me, in comments and questions, they ask about Chris. You know. So I think even though you're you're not on the show a lot, you do the voiceovers, you're in some of

the spots, you edit it. Your energy is in it, your spirit is in it. I think people want to know about Chris, and I don't think they know a lot. So there could be a ton of things. I think I'm much more known because I talk every week. So what what thing about Chris would I want people to know? What you think is just central to who he is. That when you think of Chris is like this is a kind of extraordinary or remarkable or unique to him.

I think his sense of humor. Chris is one of the funniest people I know, and someone who consistently looks for humor and finds humor in things. Yeah, I think that is one of his central traits that anybody who knows him would say. And what about also, I will add his incredible talent musically, Yes, that is also central. Anybody who knows him would say that. Also. He is very, very gifted, has been from the beginning. I have been in awe of and frequently envious of that level of skill,

natural just genius. That's true. It's true. Alright, you know what's coming. So what do you think listeners may or may not know about Eric that you think is es central to who he is. Oh, let's see, Well, I was actually going at. One of the things would certainly be that Eric is a great guitar player as well, And I don't think that gets exploited on the show, like people know that we play and write the music

on there. But it's really interesting too, because you have developed it so far, like I remember you getting frustrated by it a long time ago, and as you were learning, it's been kind of interesting to watch, like you probably have lost sight of it a little bit of like look what you can play now compared to back in the day. Totally, I think. I think, because I don't think you ever really thought of yourself as being really good at it, but you are. And I don't think

people know that. I mean, there's songs on there that you would not know which one of us is playing guitar if you didn't if we didn't know the other thing I think, and it may be obvious to some people since they know you better than me, is how tender hearted you are. Like I think you can watch something and completely be super affected by it emotionally, like someone doing something really sweet for somebody or something like that. You've always been that way too, which is kind of funny.

I mean, that's the Eric that I met, and it's still there, Like someone does something really nice and if you witness it, you're just so affected by it, which is wonderful. It's so true. He's I mean, brought to tears so easily. I also wonder if listeners know to how funny you are. Eric. I mean that's another thing, is like your sense of humor um and I think now that we're talking about it, clearly along with music, laughter and a sense of humor is completely something that

you guys share. Have a comment. Yeah, I have felt if I have any like thing about the show that I wish was better or different was that more of that was captured. And the original vision I had was that Chris and I were going to interview people together, and I feel like there would have been a lot of natural humor in that. That doesn't come through as much when I'm interviewing people. It's there from time to time, and sometimes that depends on the guest and your interaction

what depends on the guests. And it's harder to have a sense of humor over the internet when there's little bits of lags and you're trying to work on microphones. Like a lot of good humor, you sort of interrupt and play off each other and it just doesn't work in the same way. And often we're talking about semi serious things also of our humor and what we say would have to be either beeped out or with land us in prison, there's really good. Definitely a fair amount

of it that that is not inappropriate, litterally inappropriate. For That's one thing you and I think have always had and shared was a belief that like nothing in life is off limits, absolutely, and I still think that, which always disturbs me about like cancel culture and stuff. If it's a comedian and you know, it's supposed to be only funny. To me, there's literally I can't think of

anything that's off limits, right, Yeah. What has changed for me in that, um, although I still believe that anything is worth laughing at, and often laughter is one of the best ways of diffusing what really hurts and what really difficult, which you and I are also great at and together laughing at the dark side kind of makes it feel better. We definitely have a tendency to laugh at ourselves, you know, like we'll laugh at ourselves more

than anything else. I think the only thing is changed for me around this whole idea of cancel culture and different things is I have become a little more sensitive to I never want my humor to hurt anyone, oh absolutely, And so that's the tricky part. And what I've started to learn a little bit is that even though my intention is never that something a joke or whatever would hurt someone, sometimes the way it lands might and I

do have a responsibility to be careful there. But but I think within the bounds of Again I'm I'm not a comedian, so I think within the bounds of our personal laughter. I think anything is funny. You can find humor. It might even be pushing it further to make the other one left right, right, we know the spirit behind it. Yeah, whereas like a pro comedian, I think some of them adhere to this thing of don't make fun of something that somebody can't change. Yeah, that's which interesting rule. Yeah,

for sure. You know. The other thing I think that really works about guys friendship is while you both have kind of an energy or like like energy in different ways.

Eric has a sort of driving forward force in his life, and you have this enthusiasm about things like Eric is talking about about food or whatever, but you also, at the same time both have this incredible laid back nature about yourselves and then about one another that I think gives the other person room to like just be who they are or make mistakes or whatever without your friendship crumbling at the slightest thing, like you have this laid

back nous about you that really wears well over a lifetime. Makes me think of sort of a joke in our friendship, but it's also based on reality. Is that in your addiction? When I hired you for two, if not three jobs, I can't remember what it is, and these were like professional jobs, and then I joke about this being the third and I had and I had to fire you from those jobs, you know, because you just essentially would not show up. You couldn't do it. And it's funny

because I think about what what is it? Because I mean, it always reflected badly on me because I had somebody that I was reporting too and it was really difficult and painful. And yet somehow, like you said, there was a laid back nous where I was like, right, that's you know, like, well, I think that says something about YouTube, Like you know, I mean, doing a great job is one thing, but maybe also you're not going to get as as offended with jobs like that because you think

a little larger than you know what those jobs were about. Right, And I think an ability to see in people beyond the difficulties they might be having which I do think, and having yourself you were less likely to judge harshly.

That's right, that's right. I mean I think another thing, not if I, you know, not to describe myself too much, but if I was to describe good qualities about me, I think one of them is that ability to sort of see beyond behavior to the person underneath and what's happening. And so you and I had enough history and background that I knew who you were. I just knew that you were not well at that time, and I was

trying to help you. And that's often what those jobs were were an attempt to help and and it didn't work. It was like, okay, that didn't work. Yeah, we were able to roll off. But it is sort of a funny, funny thing that it is that I had to. It's

a great story in retrospect, for sure. Speaking of great stories, do you guys have a favorite or one of your favorite memories of time together, something you did together, something that happened to the two of you together, just as you think back on your friendship, any kind of favorite memories that come to mind. I do. There's so many, though, Like you could ask on different days like that different

things would come up. One of my very favorite memories though, is being at a very early water Boys concert with you and we met We went backstage or not backstage, back behind the show, and we met Mike Scott and just like sharing that, Yeah, well, another memory of me I was thinking about this, knowing that we might be

asked this question. A favorite memory of mine of a later one was being at a water Boys show again exactly this time actually going backstage and hanging out because I had interviewed my we'd interviewed Mike Scott for the podcast, which was a huge moment for me personally because he's such an icon to me, and so since I interviewed him on the show, he invited us to go backstage and we spent an hour, hour and a half just hanging out with the water Boys. And on what a moment.

That felt such an amazing moment, just so weird that we had met him, you know, and probably in nine or whenever that was. It was early the first time too, just a strange thing, you know, And now we have this podcast and this whole thing together, and here we are sitting in a room talking with him. It was a sort of full circle moment like bringing together so many things that mattered, and its very poignant for me. In fact, it book ended our relationships so nicely that

it's been downhill from there ever since. Just kidding, it was the best moment and it's all you know. Another another memory I have, and we have a picture to show it is us being at the Community Fest in Columbus, Ohio. I think we were both on LSD. We were and we got into what still happens today, which is a laughing fit. But it was about a hundred degrees and we were in the back seat of someone's car and

we just could not stop laughing. And there's a picture of us and we are like the color of tomatoes because we are laughing so hard and we and we're laughing, I think as I remember it just simply because it was so hot and we were joking about how hot it was, which is kind of typical that we would just pick something like that, and it turned into this rage this laughter. Yeah, that picture may end up on our website for this, I think, so possibly one of

maybe a couple. We'll put a couple of pictures on the on the website. So yeah, we're gonna put some pictures linked to the Spotify playlist of some of our best friendship songs at our website, which you could go to it when you feed dot net slash friendship. All Right, So a couple more things before we get to our our member questions that I'm curious about. If you had to say, what would be a favorite thing that you

guys do for each other? Like, what's something that you do for Eric and that you do for Chris that you think is really important, cool, special, lovely. Well, it used to change my guitar strings, which felt very very kind, but he has cast me off onto my own and it's a bandon me in this dark place. I might give you one guitar string change for old times sake. Since we're doing a friendship episode, I can answer, I

can start. One of the things that Eric does for me, or my relationship with Eric does for me is it is just almost always really easy, Like I can have Eric over to be doing something like this, something official, or you could be coming in my house to play cornhole or something in the backyard, and it's just so easy, breezy to me. I almost never have felt stressed around you or anything. It's just something I really cherish and it's interesting to me, like we could talk about anything

pretty much without it being a big, big deal. It's kind of hard to articulate. Now, I get it. I get it because he does have that kind of going back to like what I would describe as like this laid back energy or it's just giving people the space to sort of be who and where they are. Judgment free zone totally though. It's like absolute sort of acceptance and present without getting your feathers all ruffled about all

the little things in life, you know. I think one of the things Eric does exceptionally well is he's aware of and really uh practices and restraint in the stories that he would tell himself about the other person and why they do what they do or they don't do what they do and you know, what makes them who they are. He really holds back from creating those stories

or getting lost in those stories. And I think sometimes that can be such a complicating factor in relationships, is what one person is telling themselves about what the other person is doing or not doing, and then you just get all this like unspoken drama that may or may not even being true. Eric just sort of doesn't he just refrains. He just sort of lets people show up as they are without a lot of internal narrative on

his part about it. That is really true. Eric is not in need of cognitive behavioral that's because Eric had probably years of learning that stuff. But allows other person not to be on guard all the time. It's like it allows the other person to sort of exale because that's just not something they have to tip too. Around with you, I would agree our friendship has definitely had that. I mean, what does Chris do for me um that

we're willing to put out on the public. I think it's back to a couple of things we've already touched on. I think that being with Chris helps me appreciate things like listening to music. With Chris, we do it in this way together when we actually do it that we're sort of amplifying the enjoyment of it. So I think Chris for me amplifies my enjoyment of certain things and all the time reminds me to try and take myself

and things less seriously. It's a levity which I think is a spiritual virtue, and Chris helps me do that. I think I have that capacity, but I think I often need a slight nudge in that direction, getting a little bit too serious occasionally. And I think Chris, uh, it's almost impossible to get too serious around Chris for very long. Yeah, it could be impossible to get very deep around me too. There are times that you're Humor

is a defensive mechanism. I don't think it's a conscious employment, like, oh, I'm going to defend myself through humor, But I think it's a very natural thing that you do. And yeah, I think, like any of our strengths, if we if we play it too hard, if we use it too much, if we employ it in every situation, our strengths can become something that's problematic for so but largely it is a strength, and it's a It's a big part of

our relationship. And I think, yes, we're joking and being silly, and but I've also always been able to actually go very deep with you. Yeah, back to that thing you know at eight team being able to say I love you to a male friend. I mean that was a plunging into the depths of experience right away that I think stands out to me now into some questions from our membership community. If you will. The first question comes from Joe. Joe asks, how do you shelter friendship from

the work of working on creative projects? Well, it's definitely different this time, as we mentioned, since Eric has had to fire me twice before, it almost happened a third time. Probably it's a really good question, and I think we've sort of answered it a little bit before. But I mean when I say we almost had to do it a third time, you know, there was a period where you were struggling addiction wise and it got challenging. So

I think it really is. That word that Joe used, shelter is a good one because I think there is a conscious effort to make sure the things stay separated, to realize, like, there's the work element of this, and there's a certain way that has to be conducted and things that have to do. And by I think by work, Joe's talking about a creative project together and we could say working together on anything as a creative project. Um,

this certainly is. So there's a conscious effort to say, Okay, there's that element, and there's that part of our relationship, but then there's another element that has nothing to do with that. They're not connected a disagreement or a disappointment in the work relationship. You know, if I'm not doing something Chris wishes I was doing, or Chris is not doing something I wish I was doing, or you get

what I'm saying. You know, when Chris is like I had to edit you again and you sounded like a moron um, at least in my mind, I consciously say, that's separate then the friendship. So you know, in times where like you know, go back to one of those jobs where I fire Chris, I was I got very clear in my mind, this is work related, but it's not. That does not say anything about our friendship. And I think we just talked about this a second ago about

not making up stories and implying things. So I was able to go, all right, this work situation that is not working out, but it doesn't mean that Chris doesn't like me, respect me, care about me. There's like exactly, which I find so interesting because I hadn't even thought about it until you just read that question from Joe, Like even when you did fire me coming from the other end too, like you knew full well. I was like, yeah,

that's cool, I get it exactly. So we'd like that could have ended up some huge resentment or problem, and it just was really almost irrelevant, totally totally. It is interesting I tell that story sometimes when I'm working with coaching clients about you can actually do that, You can actually have parts of a relationship that aren't going right right without thinking that it says something about other parts

of the relationship. We talk on the show a lot about stories and the stories we tell, so it would have been very easy for me to say, Chris doesn't care about me, he doesn't respect me, he's put me in this awful position he's but I just went, I don't think that's what this isn't about me, it's and I are really good at that type of compartmentalization. It's funny. This just brought up something that will tell really quick

about compartmentalization. That a therapist of mine, who happens to still be my therapist, was I have known for a very long time, but I remember this huge problem that I was having with a girl, and which I think was just based on my behavior at the time. But while she was talking to me about and trying to be serious, I was eating a piece of pizza because we had just ordered food, and she was so mad that I was able to eat and enjoy a piece of pizza while she was destroying me and yelling at me.

She couldn't get it. And it just makes me laugh. It just reminded me of that. But I remember bringing that to the therapist and she went along too, and he was and he drew a picture on a board, like on a chalkboard. Then he drew the exact same picture next to it around one for her. He just drew a frame and around mine he drew a grid of like hundreds of little squares as to how we think, Oh, that's so interesting. I just thought that was interesting. That

is very interesting. Yeah, I love how that visually totally like summarized what you guys are saying. He's so good. He drew another picture for me yesterday, but I won't go into it just where I was like, oh, yeah, no, I totally will you go into it. You would rather not. I think it would just take too long, it's not yeah, and it wouldn't be as relevant to this. But yeah, he's just he does really interesting stuff like that. And then I just take pictures on with my cell phone.

Also about Chow's question, though, I think it's been less relevant doing this podcast together because we actually like it. I'm human. I'll complain about having to work or any of that stuff, but not much in regards to this. Like when I've been healthy myself, it's so rare I would find a reason to have some huge disappointment or problem, and certainly not with you, you know, So it's not as applicable anyway like it would have been the other

jobs or something. Absolutely. Yeah, with the exception of that short period of time where you were really struggling it, it it has been so easy working together, Like we just were clear on who's doing what when we were doing it. You know, you're like clockwork, you know, I think we both are. We just we've put out a podcast episode every Tuesday for seven and a half years, yeah, and to to a week now. Yeah. So there's a certain amount of us working well together that it's very clear. Yep.

And then Jenny and Nicole have added so much so it's incredible. I remember, though, when I kind of came into the picture, just really wanting to be sensitive to the fact that this had been you guys thing together, and I just did not want to insert myself into something that had been sort of sacred in just between

you guys, that's what you said. But but I just also remember how much I appreciated Chris you being so like easy and open about me being involved and not being like territorial or like you know, any kind of like yeah, and we're never that way. Well, it was just it was great. It does. It does. Also. I remember some of my favorite things, like and especially recordings that I have where the ice broke, where you were

first were over for stuff. We were all laughing things that will never get played sadly, Sorry listeners, there's things you will never hear. They were joking on microphones. It's true. Were you going to say something here? Before we moved to the next question, I did have a quick reflection on a previous question, and I feel like I can't leave out of this conversation as what has Chris given me?

And Chris actually gave me I'm sorry, go ahead, one gift, a specific gift that changed my life, and it was Chris had a dog named Birdie. I used to hate dogs like I did, like not a little bit, like actively disliked them a lot. And Chris had a dog named Birdie. Who was so mild mannered, so sweet, so like just like us. She was just laid back, she just blended into what was happening. And I said to him, once, you know like a dog like that, I would have

a dog like that maybe. And one day Chris called me and he said, I come over, I got something for you. And I show up at his house and I walk in and I see literally Birdie's twin, like it's like he cloned his dogs, sitting right there. And I mean at first I couldn't tell him apart. Now over time they became clearly and he said, here, I got you this dog. And I was like, excuse me, beg your pardon. Well, I did tell myself, if he doesn't want it, I'm a percent committed to keeping. But

I saw this dog. I went to a Border Collie show and the rescue was there and I saw it and it was just incredible, and I was like, I had this hunch that you would take it. So that was Sadie. I took Sadie, and Sadie changed my life. I fell in love with her and um and with dogs in general. Right, it just opened up this like love affair I have now with dogs like, I was thinking about the great loves in my life, and I was thinking for this podcast, I was thinking, well, there's Chris,

you know, there's my son, there's you, Jenny. And then I thought, dogs, they bring you so much joy. They bring me so much joy. So that was one thing Chris gave me that has been life changing. Yeah, yeah, okay, next question from our membership community. So Katie asks, this is a kind of a two part question, So I'll read it all and then we can kind of split it up. She says, in my Psychology of interpersonal relationship class, we discussed how self disclosure is a huge part of

what contributes to lasting friendship. I'm wondering if this is something you and Chris have experienced over the years. Also, what would you say makes you best friends as opposed to just friends? So which part of that question you want to questions? It is a good question. I feel like we need to look up self disclosure from a psychological standpoint. Does that mean, I mean, just to answer

that act, do you know? I mean I think it just means sharing the parts of you that are hard to share, you know, being honest about who you are, the things you've done, what you feel, has that ever been something you guys have ever been conscious of doing, or in retrospect you see that you've done it and it's been incredibly I definitely see that we've done it totally. Yeah, probably from the get go. I mean there's always been an honesty there and kind of self effacing stuff a

little bit where the other one could help. I mean, just the sobriety factor for me. Yeah, I think it was always there too. I don't know why or how, um, but I think it always was always back to that genesequa of the early question. Yeah, so I think it was always there. And then both of us being involved in recovery. You know, in recovery there is a real emphasis on you share what's going on with you, right,

you know. So, so I think we had it naturally, and then it was sort of amplified by the things we were ended up being involved in and being driven to. Yeah. I mean, you guys clearly have, Like if you think about this element of safety in your friendship, you guys are safe places for one another because of this. You know that there's a love there, you know there's an acceptance there, you know that nothing's off limits to laugh about,

but not in a hurtful way. You know, you're able to sort of help each other bring each other out of sort of dark, heavy places. Some of our darkest moments are some of our funniest jokes too. At this point. There are things that we would laugh about, Oh, I mean totally. I mean one that we joke about a lot, and it was a really really dark moment for me.

It was when I was in my previous marriage and it was really bad, and there were these fights and I just could not could not turn them off, you know, could not turn her off. And I'm not casting all the blame in that marriage on her, I shared equally, but her anger was one of the manifestations of what happened. And I just remember one time I was so frustrated, just out of my mind because I know what's coming, that I had a belt in my hand and I

started hitting myself in the face with the belts. Yeah. I mean, when I told Chris this story, he was howling, laughing. He's probably trying to You're probably trying to open up to me about this painful moment, and all you're getting back is laughter and eyes. But but it's you know, that's an example of you know, total self disclosure and um yet laughter. So we joke about that still to this day. If I'm frustrated, you'll be like, well, let's

not get old belt face. Is this a belt worthy disappointment? Great Lord of the listeners of the show are like, well, I thought that I was to get other but clearly he's got some problems. Problems, all right, So so what about the second part of this question, which is what would you say makes you best friends as opposed to just friends. It's an interesting question. It's one I've thought about,

I really have. I've thought about because in the lens of the fact that Chris has so many good friendships, but I would say that, you know, he thinks of me as you know, not in a ranking system, but a best friend. You know, it has the best element to it. And I've thought about why, like, what is it that has caused, you know, with someone like Chris has got so many friendships, you know that we would be best friends? And I have. I have a good number of friendships too, and I would say you are

my best friend. Any other friends listening to this just settle down. It's just Chris many friends A long time no, no need to get upset, no need to get your feathers out. I don't know. I honestly do not know. I think we answered a little bit early here. I think there was a natural element to it, and then there just has been a nurturing of it and from the very beginning recognizing like something is special here. Yeah. And part of it could be like any relationship, longevity, geography. Yeah,

I mean, it has always been available to us. The relationship gets the opportunity to develop. If you had stayed in California, it would be very different. You know, it doesn't mean we wouldn't be close, but it's certainly you know that's true. We would be erasing thousands of experiences that we've had together totally as we sit here right now. And it's interesting, is I contemplate geography in my future when Jenny's mom we don't have to go to Atlanta, if my mom is an anchor to me in Columbus.

When I think about geography and going somewhere else, the thing that makes it feel almost impossible to leave is leaving you we have. I mean, one of the reasons we have prioritized and would prioritize staying here is because he has friendship, so it's worth staying for its Absolutely, it is interesting that I have theorized on leaving here sometimes even though I feel like I probably couldn't leave

my mom and you know, family or whatever. Sometimes. But it's funny that one of the places I focus on and we never had discussed this just happens to be one of the places that you guys focused on two, which for me was New Mexico. Came up with that completely without ever discussing it with you guys. I always thought that was interesting that I was, Yeah, we should. I mean, let's get a ranch in New Mexico. All live on it together. We can have two separate houses,

you and Nicole, you know, different Nicole from the show. Yes, his wife Nicole is welcome to I mean ar Nicole is welcomed. Yes, you'd like to. This is turning into a compound. We don't want to get weird anyway, retreats enter. Although the global warming, New Mexico may be difficult. Yeah, we've been thinking like Northern Canada might be the long term best long term. You know what's interesting I read this reflection about this idea of best friends, and I

feel like it may apply to you, guys. This person said, it's not about exclusivity, but about years of stories, love and support that has granted us the highest honor of friendship. The right beautifully said, isn't that okay? Next question? But if you hang out with anybody more than me, I'm going to be really sound. It's funny, though, I have friendships with people where that element is there of you know, jealousy.

It's interesting I had it early in our friendship. I was so enamored with you as a friend that I would feel jealous that that has past, you know, but not the enamored part, the jealous As I've matured, you sort of realize like you have other friends does not take away from our friendship. And so, but as an eighteen or nineteen year old, you don't necessarily know that. Yeah. Yeah, what's funny is you became like, I'm from Columbus, but I lived in Athens for a long time, almost eight years.

Maybe yeah, but like if I came here, why I didn't have to have that jealousy here because you were really the only person I want right whenever you were in town, and those were my favorite times, was my favorite times of the year when when you were in college in Athens and it would be break and I would be Chris's back. It was great because Ohio University is in Athens, Ohio are known as party schools, and it was really nice to come back and take a

break from that. If you come back and get worse those questions from Grace, Grace asks I'd really like to hear how the friendship was affected and or changed as Eric worked through his addictions and became sober so many years ago. Well, I think to give that question it's full context, right, is that I got sober at stayed sober about eight years, drank again for a few years, got sober again, and had been sober for I don't know, fourteen years now, and Chris has a similar trajectory. I

think you've got sober eight. I got sober the first time, ye so several years after me, and then I went ten years, although I drank the last seven of that, but not in in a super extreme way. But I was always a drug guy. So then I when I once I restarted that things really went nuts again. Then I got sober again. So how has it affected our friendship?

It's interesting, I think when I got sober the first time, that was a big change because Chris was still pretty firmly in the world we had had inhabited for years, which was a world of lots of drinking, lots of drugs, and I was very much an enthusiastically newly sober person, like I was all fired up about it, and I lost a good number of friendships did not survive that initial transition. They just didn't survive. Chris is one that did.

And I think it gets back to what we've talked about a little bit, which is that I let him be where he was, and he let me be where I was, and we still found the things that we did connect on. So a big part of our relationship had been drinking and drugs and that now was gone. But the other parts of the relationship, the humor, the allowing each other to be where they are, the love of music, those things were still there and we're still

really solid. Yeah, And they're so solid. I think our relationship is way more interesting and fun when we're both sober, totally, which you probably could not have convinced me of two decades ago, totally not. And I think seeing each other go in and out of recovery and addiction, seeing each other at really low bad points and then seeing each other get better and get better together and share getting you know, recovery has obviously made you know, a great

strengthening of the relationship for sure. You know, I just realized that I think one of the greatest things about being friends with it was when you were drinking and doing drugs. I always had either to be like, well, at least I'm not that bad. I'm just kidding. I

was easily that bad in other ways. Yeah. It's funny though, because the second time when I was drinking, um that actually that story of your last night yeah out is one where I was like, I can't even keep up with that, and I feel like a complete season pro

at this point. Yeah, and I had moments where, you know, one of the times I had to fire you from a job, I was using and drinking too, and I was able to look at you and I was like, I'm at least showing up for work for crying out, while like, I mean, you know, I got a job. This guy can't even show up, you know, like you have four hours a day. So yeah, we certainly, I think I had moments of of of reflecting each other. You know, boy, that guy's in trouble. That's so funny.

All right. Kind of continuing in this theme of addiction in your friendship, So Christine asks, since you've seen each other through periods of addiction, I'm curious how you maintained a lasting and support of friendship during times when one person was engaging in self destructive behaviors. Here's her question, how can you signal you're there to help if needed in a way that doesn't seem judgmental or presumptuous. Boy,

what a nicely phrased question. I almost feel like we know each other so well and see each other so often that the signal would be a given, It would be obvious, maybe, I think, so, I hope so. Um. You know, this is most alive for me with you, you know, being the one more recently who you know, went back through a period of addiction that got really dark and really bad and really trying to figure out

the right way to relate to you. And I think anybody who has a friend, family member, a loved one who is in addiction wrestles with this question, what the hell do I do? How do I do it? You know? Is continuing to be your friend and act normal, you know, quote unquote enabling you should I set some like hard guidelines, you know, and so you never know the right thing to do. And I think I haven't gone through this just with you, gone through it with a lot of

people that are friends, but with you. It's probably most poignant because it chokes me up to talk about it because I was worried that legitimately you could be gone. Sorry to put you through that. No, I mean I've done it too. It's it's okay. It's just you know when you realize that fact, and you can react to that in two ways. And we saw people in your life who reacted to that by trying to kicking and

screaming to drag you to help. I took a different approach, which worked, which well, I mean, we never know what works. What happens. Is I think I do, like just because I was on the other side of it at that time. Yeah, But I think I responded well to how you handled that. Yeah, I think I responded really well, especially right at the very end. I was starting to be convinced, oh I can do this again, and I see it, I see

why I should do it well. I think it's the approach of when I give advice to anybody who's in that situation, you've got to love to win, or a friend who's suffering from addiction, is you've got to start with how do you stay sane through this? Because the honest truth is, we have no idea what's going to get someone else sober. People have lots of ideas and theories about it. There's the tough love community that's been around for a long time that says, just you know,

fortunate enough, consequences make their life hard. You know. I think more and more we're seeing that's not really the right approach. I mean, if if part of that is like having your wife constantly telling you, that might have worked a little bit for me, totally thats We just don't know what causes somebody to get sober, you know. So if you are a parent, you could say, well, my kid is using drugs, and I'm going to set a rule that they don't use drugs in the house.

And then they do use drugs in the house, so I set a rule that says you now have to leave, and it is different for each individual. That might help. That could be the thing that drives that person off the edge. Right. So I think what I did was, first, how do I take care of myself and stay sane during this, and then secondly, how do I be as honest with you about what I'm seeing, what I'm feeling, my perspective and then let go of it. Yeah, you know,

say Chris, I'm really scared. I'm really worried about you. I really care about you. I think this is really a problem, you know, not not gloss over it, not be afraid to talk about it, not bring it up, but also not have it become the only thing that our friendship is about. Right. I think that benefited me greatly, and just your calmness even in crazy. I won't even go into this here. I could tell you guys later.

It might be too much detail on the microphone. If you're uncomfortable with it, then don't, but I think everyone would love to know details. Yeah. Well, I guess I could say it a little bit like there was a period and this is you know, drugs and really frequent and crazy use of drugs. But I remember you came over and I was like, I'm not giving it up. Like I had stuff in my pocket and I was like, I'm gonna go. You somehow convinced me to give it to you. But I was like, well, then I'm going

to go do one more. And you actually met me halfway and you're like, okay, because you knew full well I could do what. You know, I could have not given that that to you and put in your hand either. You know that was hard to do, but it was hard for you to do too. That was within days, if not two days of me stopping too. I mean, that was a strange and difficult thing. So you're saying that that not only did he encourage you to like let go of some of what you had, but he

also met you where you were. Ye kind of showed and understand it because I knew Eric had been there before. Like, I'm holding this little thing in my hand and it is so important to me, so to hand it to you and knowing that you're going to flush it down the toilet is a real problem. Right now, Did you still use and he was there when he waited outside, I went in. I did that, and that's one of the last times as far as I recalled. But I still kept drinking. And then yeah, but I was in

treatment very shortly after that one. Why was that important for you? What did that do for us? Because it reminded me, well, it wasn't the other reaction that I was getting, like from my family and stuff, I think, which was that wasn't really working, just the anger and the outrage. I just don't think. I respond well, yeah, but it also reminked it kind of brought me to reality because I was not in reality. I was probably faking at best I could, but I was so whacked out.

But it reminded me. I was like, oh, that's Eric, and he's been here before. It's those little reminders that well, yeah, you can stop doing this. You know, it's not insurmountable. Boy does it feel insurmountable during the moments though, But it's not. You know. What is coming up from me when I listened to you is like, when there's a lot of anger and other people kind of trying to kind of control what you're doing or not doing an addiction, it naturally, I think, drives you into a place of

secrecy from them about what you're doing. But when there is what Eric was bringing in that moment, which was this balance of encouraging you to let go of this thing that you're doing while also being there with you as it happened in a pretty darn non judgment In a non judgment way, it sort of brought you out of that secret place, which kind of helped you come back to a moment of reality, right, Like it helped you come out of a secret place in yourself that's

dark and into the light where there's there's someone else and there's there are things you can really come to terms with. And that's at least what I'm what's coming up for me when I hear that. Yeah, I don't know if that's how you felt. Probably, yeah, I mean I'm not super clear minded on it, of course, but I do remember just that, you know, I think not being judged was big for me because I was being severely judged by most people, and justifiably it's a very

terrifying thing to most people. Yeah, you know, that level of drug, right. Yeah. I think it's an interesting point about recovery and addiction in general. And I sometimes feel like a cliche of myself because they talk about the middle way so often. But even in recovery, there's in twelve step programs, there's this very clear you're in or you're out. If you're in and your sober, you're great. And if you're not, then we don't have I mean almost like like an a, a sponsor will fire you.

They'll be like, I'm not gonna work with you because you're still drinking. So one of the best things about twelve step communities, and I don't want to put them down because they've saved my life twice, one of the very best things is the people understand you. You go in and you you hear people and you're like, oh my god, that's me. And you hear people articulating what was going on in your head that you never heard before.

I've talked before about reading the n A book for the first time when I was in herro when heroin Addiction, and I just sobbed because I was like, oh my god, that's what's going on. That's what It's a great part. But what I found over the years is that a lot of people are are not in, and they're also not all the way out. They're somewhere in between. They're

working on recovery. And I think what those people really need, and hopefully this is what I was able to give Chris, and I think people have given it to me is being able to be met where you are and encouraged in a certain direction, but also sort of understood and not judge and knowing like, okay, that's where you are.

And as we've learned about science of change, we know that people go through stages of change, and there is a stage of change it's called pre contemplation, and then there's a contemplation stage, right, And a lot of people with recovery are in that pre contemplation and contemplation stage. And I don't feel like there's a lot of meeting people there or resources there for people, because if you go to a or a twelve step program, it's like full abstinence. Now boom, we've got to be all the

way in. And again, I think there's a big gray area there and sometimes people need shepherded through that area. I don't know if that makes any sense. And there's always I mean some of a or maybe you could just say to alve step programs have that false pride that's really kind of dangerous, like it has to be this way, this is the only way. Some religions have that too, you know, and that can really turn people the other direction. I think it does. I think it

does again. Twelve step programs save my life. There's so much good in them, and there is a like anything, it's that people are people. And what's interesting now, too, is that I think it a particularly has changed since you were in it heavily. It has definitely gotten a little less religious, or at least as an interpreted as frequently like that. There's a lot more of these kind of bohemian meetings that I go to. But there's also people that smoke pot, which would be unheard of back.

There's people that smoke pot that go there for alcohol, you know, or other drug addictions, which I'm not going to say that's good or bad. It's it's very clearly not according to the Big Book of a not how to do it, but it has probably saved people's lives because pot won't kill you necessarily, whereas alcohol and you know, fatinil or anything else literally could kill you in a

pretty short amount of time. Yeah. I mean, this topic is covered fairly extensively in the interview I did with Maya Satelets recently where we talked about harm reduction as a strategy, you know, and you know, you know, harm reduction really says, whatever we can do that reduces the damage that drugs and alcohol are doing in somebody's life. So abstinence maybe what that is. I mean that that's

sort of like the ultimate harm reduction. You just take the thing completely away, but there's lots of stages in between there that people can find and exist in, and those are all positives. I think a mantra of harm reduction is any positive change, you know, which I think aligns a lot with things we talked about on the show. Little by little, a little becomes a lot, you know, take small steps. Yeah, that was a long answer to

a questions. Those are great answers. I think what really strikes me is, you know, when it comes to it to a loved one in addiction, you know, we cannot control another person. We might love them, we might desperately love them and desperately want them out of where they are, but we at the end of the day, we cannot

change them. And what we can do is love them, be present with them, encourage them, and then we we do have to just some degree, let the outcome go right, because the more we try and control another person, it doesn't work. People people, people try that all the time. I mean, we all do that in life all the time, and I've said it all the time, and that's like one of the big tenants of you know, therapy, is that you really can't control anything. You can only control

your reaction to it. And people constantly, including me, forget that I want to control that. You know, it's hysterical, that absolutely and all this reminds me of a quote that I love. I have no idea who said it, but it said, when you realize how hard it is to change yourself, you realize the utter impossibility of changing someone else. And I mean, I think that's a really good thing to reflect on, is like how hard it is for us to change something, even when we want to.

Having someone else change it doesn't work. But you can be supportive and you can be encouraging, and like, you can be honest. You know, a tendency I had when you were going through all that was to not want to talk about it. Yeah, it was to not want to bring up what you were doing and what was happening.

And so again I tried to find that middle ground of let me say what I'm feeling and thinking, let me not be dishonest, but not make it all about that, um, and I think the other thing that I did, and then we can move off this topic. Was I thought. As I was thinking about what if you don't make it and you're not here, I thought about, how will I want to have acted? Yeah, that I can live with that when it's over. You know, obviously I'm gonna

I would be devastated and heartbroken. But will I be able to look at what I did and feel like, Okay, you know what I did what I could that's hugely important without involving belts anyway, No belts were used, No, but you know what you did? Eric? Is you This gets back to your other point, which is I think central is you do have to sort of say, how can I stay saying? How can I stay saying in the midst of this, not only now but later, how can I take care of myself? How can I uh

not have this take over my life? How can I continue to live my life in a way that has integrity and has you know, is healthy, Um, both now and later while also being there, being present, being honest, being accepting, and being loving not judgmentally of the other person. Yeah. One of the hardest things in life is to have people you love engaging in behavior that you think is

harmful to them. I mean, whether it be something like somebody's in a full blown addiction, or it be your spouse smoked cigarettes, or they eat hamburgers every day, or it's any behavior that you can look at and we can sort of objectively say, well that's not healthy. People can get so wrapped around that that that has to change and it's all they see. And so again it's that, yes, this is important, this is part of it, but there's a whole lot more surrounding this, and there's a lot

of other wonderful things about that person that are still here. Yeah, that actually brings us to our last question here from a listener, Vanessa asks, were there any difficult conversations around work? Some things I could possibly think of are like things like finance or boundaries or different perspectives about a topic. And if they're is how did you overcome them while

still keeping friendship, nourishing and thriving. So I think what you're saying is a piece of that, at least from what I've heard, is like, it's not the only thing. They're still keeping a context and a perspective of like all that there is involved here, not just one difficult part, but anything else come to mind as I read that question. I don't think I've ever felt difficulty personally. Maybe you have, though,

but you've had to control a lot more of this. Also, like I said, like this is more of a like a passion project to even though it had to become our jobs or it couldn't have continued probably on the level it has. But yep, there are real pros and cons to working with people you love. I mean, the pros are obvious, right, You're involved in creating something, doing something with people that you love being around and spending time with. So I mean there's an obvious pro and

it's beautiful. The con is when things don't go as well and the other person isn't living up to or doing or agreeing with you have a different perspective on how to do things, or so all of a sudden, I think we've covered this fairly extensively, is all of a sudden, you've got a difficult conversation to have. And I will avoid a difficult conversation if at all possible. I do not like it, even with someone like you that I know it's safe to do. I don't like to do it. I have a deep fear of it.

I know where it comes from, I know why it's there. But I've also learned that if you don't do that, it's a real problem. And earlier in my life I did things. I have a tendency to like, get a great idea, be excited, and recruit my friends, and I've had times over the years where that hasn't gone well. When I was younger, I don't think I had the capacity to do what we've talked about, which separate those things, and to be able to say, Okay, I'm gonna have

the difficult conversation. I'm going to talk about what's going on, but I'm also going to keep the relationships separate. And what I've learned is not having those conversations is much more damaging than having them, because resentment builds, you know, resentment builds, mistrust can build. All sorts of things build, and so not only does the relationships suffer, the business or projects suffers. It's hard to do, but it's essential, and so for me, I just I recognize I don't

want to do this, I'm afraid to do it. Then I think about, Okay, I'm I need to do it. Am I going to do it? Yes? Okay, I decided that, and then I work on getting up the courage and thinking about what I'm going to say, and then the thing that helps me actually do it. What we have a tendency to do with these is be like, I'm going to pick the right time. I've learned to ask myself, like, is there ever going to be a good time to have this conversation? I remember this in my opinion, is

the good time only for you? Or is it for them? Because she couldn't decide for someone else what's the right time? Is that's exactly right? And and then you get into like I mean, I remember this in my previous marriage, which was difficult. As I've said, I'd be like, all right, I need to bring this difficult thing up, but I'm not gonna bring it up right now because she's in a bad mood to not do it. And then it'd be like, oh, she's in a good mood. I don't

want to ruin the good mood, you know. So it's like, so what I've realized is I asked myself, is there ever going to be a good time to do this? Or am I ever going to want to do it? And if the answer to that is no, then I try and do it as fast as I can from that point forward because it minimizes the amount of time I have to dread it. Yes, which is a big change for me when I was younger, where I simply

couldn't do it and that never went well. Anything come up for you, Chris, as you're thinking about this topic or listening to what he says, you know, I kind of lost sight of what that was all about. But I mean, I mean, I mean they wandered for forty minutes again, and no, no, it wasn't that. I think what I started thinking about was this way. I don't

know how I got on this. I think because I started thinking about, as you were saying all that, that sometimes just moving forward without all the analyzing ahead of time is the most absolutely beneficial thing. And then it my mind wandered towards the end there because I was like, God, I was thinking about this window I had to replace

at one of my rental properties. And I thought about this for a solid six weeks, almost two months, and oh my gosh, I can't believe I have to do this, and all these stories I had made up about it and how it was going to go, and one day I just it just finally collect and I went and did it. And I'm not kidding. I think I went there, measured it, went to a place, bought the window. Oh

my gosh, they have the exact size. How could that be, as if there's that many windows in the world, and you know they somewhat standardized, went there, put it in. I don't think it was an hour and a half. I had done this nearly professional off, but I was exhausted from six weeks of thinking about it. Yeah. Yeah, that's all that reminded me. I could totally relate to that, though, I mean, how often we do that? I mean yeah, and sometimes not for that long, right, but we just

just little things around the house, so totally Yeah. So well, I think that just about wraps it up. Guys. This was This was so much fun for me anyway to get to do. I hope it was fun for you guys. It was totally fun. I hope it was interesting to the listeners. I always, you know, worry about being self indulgent. Yeah, I'm worried about that too, well, at least from my perspective. It was so edifying and so fun, and it's also

just so touching Gull's friendship. And I'm just really grateful that we were able to have this opportunity to sit down and sort of explore it together. So thank you so much. Thanks you guys, me too, and I love you Horsey, love you too. We should say that horses a variation of the word horse. Horses a nick name. Here name a long term nickname. Oh yeah, we never did discuss horse is the most common. Probably there's all kinds of other inappropriate horse, but horse sack is a

common one. And on that note, we'll fade it out. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community with this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members only benefits. It's our way of saying thank you for your support. Now. We are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support. And don't take a single dollar for granted.

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