Dr. Christian Conte on Radical Anger Management

you feed dot net slash join. Do you understand the power behind how egotistical that is to genuinely believe if other people thought the way you do, everything would be fine. Welcome to the one you feed. Throughout time, great tinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,

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Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Dr Christian Conti, one of the country's most accomplished mental health specialists in the field of anger and emotional management. He specializes in working in the prison system with people convicted of violent crimes. In this episode, he and Eric discuss his new book, Walking Through Anger, a New Design for Confronting conflict in an emotionally Charged World. Hi Christian,

Welcome to the show. Thanks for having it. I'm really excited to talk about your book called Walking Through Anger, a New Design for Confronting conflict in an emotionally charged world. And boy do we live in an emotionally charged world, so lots to talk about. But let's start like we always do, with the parable. There's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson. He says, in life, there are two

wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second, and he looks up at his grandfather and he said, a grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your

life and in the work that you do. I think it's essential to the way I've designed my entire life. So are you a similar metaphor slightly different? But I do this, I say, I ask people, if I give you a bucket, what would you put in that bucket? You can put anything you want in that bucket, and so what's the first thing that comes to your mind? Well, I put a phone in there, or I'd put I put food in there. Okay, then you'd have a phone in your bucket, or you'd have food in your bucket.

The reality is that whatever you put in your bucket will be in your bucket. And that's true of your mind. And it's the same thing equivalent to what the wolf parable is. If I put fear and anger in my mind, that's what will be in my mind. It's not complex, it's not rocket science. It's literally that simple. What you

put in your mind will be in your mind. If you're angry, and let's say you are driven by whatever your politics are, you're gonna watch TV to only see whatever fulfills like what you already believe, and you're gonna keep filling your mind up with that. And if you're angry, you'll just keep filling your seat. See, whatever I believe is true, and it's very powerful. What you put in your mind will be in your mind. The wolf you

feed is the wolf that will succeed. I mean for that alliteration, but that that worked out kind of nicely. It does, it does. So let's talk a little bit about anger. A lot of your work and and this book really talks a lot about dealing with other people that are angry. But you say that your method, although it is a method for dealing with conflict in other people's anger, it's also a method for dealing with our

own anger. And I'd like to explore working with our own anger because, as I mentioned you in the brief conversation before the show, there's a lot of anger that people are feeling right now about this global situation that we're in. You know, there's anger about how the government

is handling things. I've been doing a lot of free coaching for healthcare workers, and there's a lot of people whose lives are out there on the line who are angry, you know, like we shouldn't be in the conditions we are. We all see people on TV who aren't social distancing, and we can get angry and think they're putting other people at risk. So I'd like to explore working with anger because there's a lot of it right now, and of course it's an evergreen topic. It's always always going

to be here. So where do we start with working with our own anger? So I did martial arts growing up, and um I was passionate about doing martial arts. I had a teacher was phenomenal. I was a hotheaded teenager and every time I felt like I got good at something, he would call me up to the front of the class to demonstrate something that I would inevitably fall on the ground and look like a full with He was cutting down that ego which I had as a kid so much. So when we talk about anger, we talk

about dealing with anger. One of the toughest things is for people to get confronted with the reality that their own ego is what causes a significant amount of that anger. For example, I talk about the difference between what I

call a cartoon world. This is how the world should be, this is the way people should respond, this is what people should think, this is what people should say, and then there's the real world, how people actually are doing it and as long as we align our expectations with the cartoon world, well, they should have known what we knew, they should have said what we would have said. Um, they should have done what we would have done. Then we're let down. But the world isn't letting us down

because the world is what it is. It's our own expectations. So an enormous part when we talk about anger management, it's about holding up a mirror to our own lives and recognizing that we create a lot of unnecessary suffering in our minds because we demand that the outside world should be the way we think it should be. What the reality is, It is what it is, right A. I tend to agree with you that we set ourselves up for a lot of our frustration by expecting the

world to be different than it is. But there are a lot of people who respond to the world as you know. We see things that we want to be different. We see conditions in the world, we see suffering that's happening to other people, and we're frustrated by that. Sure, look when we see that suffering, we see that there's that's real, that's reality. So the question is what can we do about it? What I see is we spend a lot of time talking about really kind of silly judgments.

I wouldn't have done this. I wouldn't have said that hindsight bias is a defense mechanism. It's startling. There was a town. They operated on this machinery, and their whole lives revolved around this machinery. And one day the machine broke and so the town was out of luck. So they called in this expert. An expert said, look, I'll help you out. But it's twenty million dollars paying me up front. So they said, man, that's a lot of money, but our whole way of life is stopped. We need

this guy. We need this guy. They recognized they didn't have the answer, so they paid him his money. He got his money. He takes out a he goes down to the boiler room of the main building. He was out a little three inch hammer. Takes out that hammer and he finds a spot. Boom, boom, boom. He pops three times. Machine kicks back on. Oh my goodness, he fixed it. Our way of life is set. But then it crept in. Wait a minute, all you did was tap right here three times. We can do that. That's easy,

and the consultants said, yeah, but I knew where to tap. See, hindsight biases that belief that the second we get information that we already knew it, but we didn't know it. And this is what's happening right now in the world. It's always happening in the world. We watch something unfold, we see the answer, and then we convince ourselves in our own egotistical way that we knew that and that

we wouldn't have done it that way. But the truth is, if we wouldn't have done it that way, we would have moved ourselves into those positions of leadership and we would have done things differently. And anything else is an illusion. It's a belief from our ego that it's almost a grandiose illusion, like I would have done things different late, But that's not reality. Reality is what's happening right now,

and that's a that's a huge part. And when I said at the beginning that it's it's tough to hear, I know this isn't easy to hear because people want to believe welcome on. Tell me how everybody else is crazy, tell me how everybody else needs to work on this. But when we shine light. We say we all need to work on this. People like to say that up here, but the truth is, do we really like to look at ourselves and realize that it's our own thoughts and

beliefs that channel the way we're experiencing the world. I think that's challenging for a lot of us. What about using anger as an energy to transform the things in the world that we want to be different, beautiful? It's excellent angers of wonderful motivator. Anger can get us fired up. I know this is an audio program and folks who are listening aren't able to watch this. So I'm gonna

say this as clearly as possible. If we were to look at things, let's let's almost look at it as a ladder, so I Eagine in your mind the ladder, the very bottom of that ladder. If we looked at the ladder as consciousness, the bottom of the ladder are things like shame, like oh this was I'm terrible, I'm no good. Right. The next rung on that ladder is depression. Then there's anxiety. But listen to this because it is important.

The next step up is anger, which means we would rather be angry than dwell in shame or depression or anxiety, and so we lash out because anger is a great motivator to break us free from dwelling in the shame, the anxiety of depression, and when we can break free

from an anger can be a beautiful motivator. The challenge for all of us comes into play when we really convince ourselves in an extraordinarily egotistical way that if the outside world just did whatever we believe they should do, well, then we're gonna be hey and everything will fall into place. Like I do this YouTube channel and I do these anger management videos. It's a free resource for people. I love doing it. I hear so many comments of people saying, well,

I don't really have anger. If everybody would just do what I think they should do, I wouldn't be angry. Yeah, if everybody just believe what you believe, then everything would be fine. That's do you understand the power behind how egotistical that is to genuinely believe if other people thought the way you do, everything would be fine. Imagine that. That's a hard thing to swallow, But once you do, you can become humble and say, wait a minute, maybe

I don't have all the answers. Maybe this is the perspective I see, but I'm open to learning other perspectives as well. Yeah, you talk a lot about that in the book About this, you use a metaphor of only being able to see one side of the box. So share a little bit more about that, because I do

think that you talk a lot about that. Seeing other people's perspectives is a really important part of this, and there is a certain humility that we have to take that says, Okay, I don't know all the answers, so let me start with the box. First of all, I'm really grateful to you that that metaphor stood out to you, that that responded well with you. I feel very grateful that that lesson came to me to be able to

share with my daughter. Originally, I've been sharing with people for the past ten years, and I'm watching some profound transformations with this metaphor. I really don't think life is super complex, but I think it's extraordinarily difficult. So in other words, we can understand stuff easily, but it's being able to actually follow through with it. So here's how the metaphor of the box came about. When my daughter was five, years old, She came home from school one

day somebody given her a pamphlet on religion. It was a different religious belief than our own, but it's setting it. This is the truth. So at five years old, my little girl said to me, what, daddy, this says? This is the truth. So I took her up to her playroom and I had her lie down on the floor her and I had her close her eyes. I said, lie on your stomach, close your eyes. I put a big box in front of her, and I put different

objects around each side of the box. So when I had her open her eyes, I had her so close to the box she could only see one side. So I said, what do you see. I had a little my little pony character. She said, my little pony. I said, okay, cool, so, my little is that true? There's my little pony there? She said, yes, awesome, that's truth. Is it true? There's my little pony on every side of the box. Now she's five years old, So she goes yes, and I

was enthusiasm. I loved it. I said, okay, So I scooted over so she can only see two sides of the box. One side had that little pony, the other side had a little book. She said, oh, it's a book. I said, that's okay. Just because you see a book on this side, does it make it any less true that there's a pony on that side? Now, that's still truth, right if you're only seeing this side of the box, that pony is absolutely true, and you could feel passionate

about it. But does that necessarily tell the story of the rest of the box? So again I asked her, I said, hey, honey, now do you believe that there's a pony in a book on the other two sides of the box. And I want you to hear this answer, because at five years old she didn't have ego involved. She genuinely said, now, Daddy, I don't know. And I said, damn.

I gave her high five. I said, that's it, honey, because when you can recognize that the people who follow that way, that believe in that path, they see that side of the box, and it may very well be true for them, But that doesn't necessarily mean that tells the story of the entire box. And I quoted the opening lines of the Dalla day Jane to her. From that the doll that can be told is not the eternal doll. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. And the essence of this lesson was

the human mind that's a box. In other words, I don't care how much you think you know what's going on with someone else. There's always more to the story. Just like in your own life, when someone tells you I know all about you, you go, no, there's more to me that you don't know. The same is true picture somebody in in the world you don't like, think politics, celebrities, people you see on TV, whoever you pick that you

don't like. Your ego convinces you you know all about them, your true self, your essence, that humility understands there is more to that person than you will allow yourself to recognize. And when we can learn to see people as significantly more than what we're seeing, it changes the way we interact with them and the way we actually experience life internally. I love that analogy, and I want to read something

you wrote about this. It got my attention, and it said the reason why it's so important to listen to others as if they are seeing something that you simply cannot see the entirety of is that they are talking about their own inner subjective worlds, and the reality is you absolutely cannot see the entirety of what they see.

And that really made clear to me that, like, oh, I think I see what someone else can see, and I can, but they've got this whole vast inner life and all these experiences before, and it's pretty clear to me I can't see that. I don't know that. I don't understand that, and it does. The word you use often, and I use it a lot for different things, is curiosity, all right? And when we can switch into a position

of curiosity, I find this about most anything. Um And I quote a spiritual teacher I love, Audio Shanti, who told me once that nothing collapses consciousness faster than judgment, and curiosity is a way of keeping consciousness more open. So we live. So let's go ahead and take advantage to some of the information that we have today. This was when I started counseling in the ninety nineties. You're right, like you say, all this stuff is speculation. It's all nice,

happy conjecture. But the truth is we live in so let's let's recognize the information we know. The reason why curiosity is different than judgment is Robert Burton, one of the leading neuroscientists in the world who wrote several books that are excellent. One of my favorites is on Being Certain. Thirty five years as a neuroscientist, has discovered that when we feel certain, I know you did this, I know he thinks that, I know she said that, that's an emotion.

It's not a cognition. So you think you're being intellectual, you think you're being really intelligent about a conversation, but the moment you feel certain, it's a feeling. It's not a cognition. Curiosity is a cognition. So in the most basic sense, and trust me, all due respect to every neurologist out there, I recognize I am making this overly simple. Um, I'm not saying there's so much instantiation in the brain,

so many different connections. I know it's more complex than this, but it's kind of easy to reduce it to this. In general, there is what we call a limbic system or an emotional center to our brain. Think about in the middle of your brain, and then the higher level thinking frontal cortex is the fund of your brain. That's when if we did brain skins and we've see I've seen research where it's kind of cool. They had adults

and adolescens talk about the same thing. Yet for the adults, their frontal cortex at higher level thinking was going off. For the adolescents, same conversation, same words, their limbic system, their emotional center was going off. So we're in two different areas, two different areas. That's why if you have teenagers, if they break up after two days, they think it's the end of the world, because to them it is.

They're in the emotionally, but beyond teenagers for you and for me and for everyone listening, when you're certain about your beliefs, when you're their beliefs, their beliefs for a reason, because we don't have definitive and you don't have a belief about gravity. We just see that there's gravity. But when it comes to anything in the world where in tales of belief and belief is a human principle. All

people have belief. Whether you are a fundamentalist of a religion or whether you're an atheist, you have belief because we don't know what else is out there. The doll that can be told is not the eternal bal the name that can be named is not the eternal name. So what we have is belief, and when we become certain about that belief, we're steeped in the middle of our limbic system. And so we argue with people thinking

we're being intellectual, but we're not. We're being emotional. And when we can be when we can have someone hold up a mirror and actually challenge our own egos and realize that we're being emotional attached to our egos, then we can start to lead with humility and genuine curiosity, and it lessens the intensity of the interaction. So let's say, on an everyday basis, let's say, with your family, Jeff children, Uh, he's not a child anymore. He's twenty one, all right, Okay,

so so but you still your son. So let's say with your son. You might believe I see this perspective and this is right, But the truth is if you really approach him with a hey, listen, this is what I'm seeing. These are the sides of the box I'm seeing. But please teach me about your side, it changes the energy of the interaction. Now it isn't about you need to see my cartoon world and live in my cartoon world. It's about saying, look, we're in the shared world together.

Teach me about the side of the box. You see. One of the things that you talk a lot about is that when we approach people this way, with this openness, with this curiosity, with us not assuming we know the right thing for them, that it makes the conversation go better. And it often does that because one of the things it does is you say, by speaking their truth, it allows them to drain their limbic system. So you explain the limbic system allows them to drain their limbic system.

That all makes complete sense to me. I want to ask you, though, about doing that for ourselves. You know, what we're saying is, let's allow other people to express us their perspective, allow them, if they've got angered, to express their anger to do that. We don't resist it, and thus it allows it to drain. So talk about draining our own limits system. How do we do that? Yeah? So, I think that's so profound and important. I'm so grateful

that you brought it up, because here's why. I am a part of every interaction I will ever have in my entire life. So are you. So there's everyone who's listening. We are in part we come to that situation. So understanding ourselves is absolutely critical to being able to communicate effectively.

To understand ourselves, here's one of the basic teachings of yield theory that I've discovered through again, more than twenty thousand hours of sitting down doing clinical sessions, analyzing those sessions, and that's a lot of intentionality for a long time. And what I found is this, I definitely buy into and subscribe to cognitive behavioral therapy. I think it's beautiful and wonderful. The s of cognitive behavioral therapy is this cognition,

fancy word for thoughts, behavior, your actions. Essentially, cognitive behavioral therapy boils down to what you tell yourself determines how you feel. Right. In other words, if you see it and it's raining, you go, oh, this is terrible. I can't believe it's raining. You're gonna be upset. But if you go, gosh, we really needed rain, Thank goodness it's here, you're gonna be happy. The rain stays the same. But what you tell yourself drives your behavior. Okay, So that's

CBT in a nuts nutshell. Cognitive behavioral therapy love that it's important, it's not enough. What I've discovered in my own career is this, our mind wants to match our body. So if we down three energy drinks, our heart's gonna raise fast. Our body might even start to shake a little bit, like we're feeling physiological anxiety. And once we feel physiologically anxious, our mind will race to match our bodies. For me, I'm a very busy person. I try up

all over I speak in different places every week. So as a person who personally struggles with anxiety, if I have too much caffeine, my mind will race and go were you supposed to be in a different state today, Were you supposed to be somewhere else today? And so and I have to take a moment, all right, you just had a lot of caffeine today, and it's uncomfortable.

But let's not create a story. So what I teach people to do around with yield theory, that's one of the core principles, is to understand that your mind wants to match your body and to recognize that and articulated. So right now here we are in this quarantine at home, Let's say you're agitated, you're irritable. Maybe you're not sleeping, maybe you're stressed because you're worried about money. In those moments when your body feels physiological discomfort, your mind will

race to make sense of it. And often we go to make sense saying it's my wife, it's my it's it's my husband, it's somebody else that's making me feel like this, when the truth is our mind is just racing to match our bodies. And can you imagine the psychological freedom that occurs when you look at yourself and say, you know, I feel I feel really uncomfortable, but I want you to know it has nothing to do with you. I said this to my wife this morning. I did

some yardwork yesterday. My back's killing me. Woke up this morning I said, listen, I need you to know that this is literally I'm being on I'm dead honest. This is one of my just a genuine looking in my life. I said to my wife. I said, listen, I my back is on fire right now. When I woke up this morning, I said, I need you to I want to say this to you. I feel really agitated and irritable.

It has nothing to do with you. It's honestly just this, like ridiculous pain in my back, And so right away, we've been married for twenty years, my wife goes great things and like that's it. Because we're able to say it now, our communication the rest of the day can be notious because first of all, once I say it, I'm less likely to continue to act that way unconsciously. But also even if I genuinely was a little shorter on any statement, my wife will go, it's okay, how

do you're in pain? Like there's no big deal. Like we're all in pain at times. So the consciousness that occurs when we just say what's going on with us is radical And so for me, anger management occurs with emotional management, and if people can learn it to get go, your mind is gonna want to match your body, and if you feel agitated, you're gonna want to take it out on loved ones. Wow, that's a that's a heck of a way to learn the role you're playing in

anger management. There's so much you said there that I could comment on and we could go deeper into I think my first experience of that our mind wants to match our body was when I got sober and in in a a we say, you know, don't get too hungry, angry, lonely or tired, which they don't all go they actually don't all go together. But but because one of them an emotion, but the one for me was hungry tired. M hm oh. When I'm hungry and tired, I think

I need a drink, that's all it is. And hangry is a notion that's permeated, you know, modern consciousness, because it's a real thing, you know, and and so a, I think that's really true. And I think what you said is exactly how I feel. I think CBT is so wise, and it only goes so far, you know, because it doesn't always go that's not always the order

of operation. Thought then emotions the other way. And the other thing that you said there that I have found to be so true is that there is something about naming my negative emotional state, particularly to the people in my life, and it then a allowing them to understand what's happening with me, and be it just lessons it when I say it, I'm somebody that gets irritated. I don't I don't know what it is. I think some

of my depression comes out as irritation. But what I just say, I'm really irritated has nothing to do with you boys. Life better. That's awesome, It's so incredible, And look I love that you. I you even pinpointed perfectly the two to go together, the hunger and the fatigue, because the hypothalum nous in our brain is literally in the center of our limbic system, the center of that emotional stuff, and it is responsible for hunger, thirst, body temperature, fatigue,

and sexual drive. So when those particular aspects aren't being fulfilled, we do feel more agitated, irritable. It's one of the reasons why one of my books, Life Lessons, I wrote this article that said that was his little chapter said, um, go to bed angry by all means, because the old headage don't go to bed angry. Do you know I

specialize in working with people convicted of violent crimes. Do you not many people I've worked with through my twenty one year career who have been there's been violence because one are both was overly tired. It's unbelievable. And I was gonna say it, had those people gone to bed, they probably wouldn't have been in prison and would change everything. So no, you're right, they wouldn't have gone. They wouldn't

have that there would have been differences. One time in my group, I co founded a center for people convicted of violent crimes in South California. One time this guy came into my group. He said, Doc Man, I'm telling you saved my life. I said, what are you talking about? Saved your life? He said, remember when you're telling us go to bed angry? He said. Me and my girl, we were getting to the point where we've gotten to so many times before, and I said, Dr CONTI said,

we need to go to sleep. And I said, first of all, before you invoked my name, I need to make sure you're using it correctly. And he said, but we did. And when we woke up, we both looked at each other and genuinely laugh. We were like, we're gonna finish fighting. We're like, what are we fighting about? Nothing? Because when we're overly tired, our mind wants to match our bodies and say it must be you. No, let's come back to it. I'm agitated my mind. And here's

the point. I can imagine if I could reach into the hearts of everyone listening right now, that many people understand this intellectually, and one of the biggest challenges with understanding this intellectually quickly is that our egos tell us Okay, I got this. I know. But if you're not practicing this, and I don't mean once a week or once a month, or you're like, oh, I remember one time when I talked no every single moment of every single day, then

you're not getting the lesson. And so it's very powerful but poignant to understand this has to be in our foregrounds all the time, every single day of your life, every conversation. And sometimes people have said to me, well, why should I put this much effort in You don't have to, But are you asking to communicate effectively? Because you do have to if you're asking to communicate effectively. And it's okay if you don't want to communicate effective it's okay if you want to just lash out and

say whatever. But if you genuinely want to connect, you've got to challenge your ego in every given moment, and that's a process. It takes dedication, right, and I think so much of it is ego challenging is one word for it. But I think the other part of it is just really knowing where we are and where we're coming from as we move into a situation, really having that self awareness. And it was interesting because I had a little bit of an insight as I was reading that.

And it's not that I didn't know on some level that our mind tries to match our body. But one of the things that I suffer from most is some degree of low mood slash depression. And it occurred to me. I went, I wonder how often that's just me being tired? How often is a low energy tiredness? Do I? Then sometimes I go, I'm just tired, But I wonder, are there other times you know that that I'm attributing depression

to just being tired. And it's something for me to kind of keep an eye on as I move forward, because I was like, huh, I should really look at that. To me, that's the epitome of consciousness, just to have that in your foreground and be like, let me just check it out. I'm not sure that we ever fully

know a dent. Maybe it is the depression, maybe it's tired, but the fact that you can bring that to your foreground and then say that to your loved ones it changes everything because now it's not about me versus you. It's about Look, I want to communicate something, and this barrier is how I'm feeling in this moment. Something else I wanted to talk with you about is now we're going to flip back. Can use an example of where cognitive behavioral therapy really does apply, and it's around extreme

language produces extreme emotions. So I just did a video on YouTube today. I said, instant anger management. If anybody out there wants to go check it out and do a whole YouTube channel. It's a free resource for people. But I did this video called instant anger management as a technique I made up. I was in a prison system. I was working in a women's maximum security prison and I was listening to this woman conveyed what was going on, and I said to her, now, listen, here's what I

want you to do. I want you to tell me that entire situation again, sans adjectives. Take away every adjective and tell me what you're upset about. So disagreed with me? Okay? Cool? It changes everything. I can't believe they believe this. They should believe this. They shouldn't have done. No, listen, SO and SO has a different opinion. Than I do. That's that's really not as monumental as I can't believe this. They never should think this. They always believe this stuff.

Wait a minute, they just believe something differently than I believe. Is that not? Okay? So when you say things sans adjective. So the video I put out today was called instant anger management. That's what instant I called instant Angerman because it radically shifts things. You're right, the language and this is a beautiful lesson from CBT, originally given it to us by Epictetus uh and early philosopher who taught that we are not disturbed by things but by the view

that we take of them. And in his book Discourses in Manual, which by the way, his student Arian I believe um wrote down his book. I used to say to my students, because I taught in a counseling program for years, I said, listen, this guy, Arian. He wrote down everything epic Tin has said. And so every t has actually never wrote any of this down. Arian did

and he published it. And I said, so, if you guys really want to stand out a student, you know everything I say, and you're li sit down the road. But he Epictetus was originally the philosopher kind of showed us that we're not disturbed by the things, were disturbed by our view of those things. And to me, I love what you just highlighted because it can radically change someone's life if you just evaluate the adjectives you're using to describe what's going on. I can't believe he said that.

Think about that statement. You mean, you, genuinely, as an intelligent human being, have an inability to believe that someone said something differently than you than you wanted them to say. And when you realize you can't wait, no, I can't believe that. Okay, So now let's come back to the truth. You can't believe it. You would have chosen for that person to say something differently. Okay, great, you would have

chosen for them to say something. You think there are any moments in your life when people would have chosen for you to say things differently. Again, ego is huge. That's why I said at the beginning, my teacher used to do something a knocked down. I'd feel foolish, but I learned powerful lessons from that, and in many ways it's what I do with people psychologically. It's it hurts.

It hurts sometimes to realize that as profoundly much as anyone out there listening believes that their political their religious beliefs are absolute truisms, the truth is those are limited perspectives. And you believe it, that's wonderful, But there are other sides to the box that you're not entirely considering or

even know. And I think the more curiosity and humility we lead with, the wide or our perspective can become the wide or our perspective, and honestly, the more we can influence people towards the things we believe in and and think. All right, I mean, there's a curiosity that opens our mind and all that, but it's also the way that we can actually have dialogue and actually get people to move this whole like I'm right, you're wrong.

It's a fool's Errand yes, that's a perfect way to phrase I think that's a perfect way to phrase it, because that's exactly what it is. I'm gonna know you how I'm right and you're wrong. Look, I appreciate you mentioned at the onset of the show there might be people who are watching if someone's not social distancing and

they say, this makes me angry. How do you know that the person who's not social distancing hasn't been struggling with addiction his entire life and is pushed to the brink right now and he needs to get to home depot to do a project, because if he does a home project, he stays away from something that could trickle down from not only his life, but be a ripple effect for everyone in his family. How do we know this?

And so to look at that person and say, well, they're not doing what I think they should be doing. How do you know the rest of their story? How do you know that person who's not social distancing on the news isn't because they're going to pick up something for someone who has not, and they're doing it for them and they don't have an opportunity to explain it. See, our judgments are steeped in arrogance. It's arrogance. Oh I know exactly why they're doing this and they're wrong. Okay,

maybe you do, but maybe you don't. And if you don't, how foolish. I love that phrase. It's a fool's Errand to believe that your perspective is the right one, My goodness, they discovered a hundred and thirty nine new planets on our solar system earlier this year. Do you know how many people would have sworn on their lives that we had nine planets? Oh wait, Pluto got lopped off, we have eight. Oh wait, Pluto got put back all we

have nine. Oh wait, now that we're counting dwarf planets, we know that we have hundreds around the Cooplar belt. And now we just found out, like a couple of weeks ago, hundred and thirty nine new ones on that Coopler belt, which means our solar system is steeped in planets and we don't even know that yet. We feel certain there's nine planets. I know. The song I was taught at when I was a kid, Certainty, honestly is the heart of a lot of anger. I'm certain you

shouldn't have done that, you shouldn't have said that. The truth is, they did say it, they did do it. Now what do we do? How do we deal with it in this moment going forward? And so some of those extreme words that it gets good to call them out explicit like always, never, everybody, nobody, And one that I think is a great one is I can't stand it, or I can't handle this, or it's too much. I love it. I used say to people all the time in my office. I'd say they come in and say

I can't stand it. When someone so says it, and I used to do this technique, I'd be like, um, oh, I'm so sorry, I forgot to tell you not to sit in that chair. Could you just stand it for a second. And they would stand up, and I go, you know, a minute ago, you just told me you can't stand it, and now I see you standing, which means you can stand it. Let's talk about that. I think we just use a lighthearted human right right, Oh yeah, okay, So let's not say I can't stand it. Let's just

be accurate. So I do a lot of work in the prison system and very passionate about the work I do in the prison system. Nearly seven out of ten people who leave prison in the United States come back. That number is not okay with me. I don't think it should be okay with anybody. What happens is a lot of times people have a tendency to believe that this is exactly what should happen, when the truth is we have to meet people where they are and see

what is happening and work from that moment forward. Yep. That's a great way of of explaining. Also, it's not that we shouldn't ever have beliefs about the way certain things in the world should be. You have a belief that's seven out of ten people shouldn't go back to prison. So you have that belief and you want to make that happen. And and the way that we do that is we meet people where they are, and then when we meet them where they are, we can potentially move them.

But but if we don't meet them where they are, nobody moves, you know. It's it's I'm just sort of astounded by how our dialogue is and how we think on a political level, it's going to be different than it is in a personal level. And we know on a personal level, when you walk in the room and you go up to someone and you go, you idiot, you've got everything wrong, You've never done anything right. Like

that never goes well, many of people do it. I'm still sort of that's another one of those, but that's not the way that change happens. Statistically speaking, the number of people for your audience who are listening to this show right now, who actually agree with what we're saying. It makes sense to them. They go, yeah, that's right. Nobody could walk in the room and tell me I'm an idiot and I'm wrong and I'm bad, and I'd go, oh, really,

I never thought of it that way. And even though they hear that right now, they will literally click out of this podcast, jump on of social media and yell at somebody. And you're underestimating my listeners. This is a very evolved group. And I appreciate that. I'm just saying, as human beings, that's what we do. I know, we haven't to see the believe na. This doesn't apply to me or I get it, but they don't get it.

So here's the analogy I give. Let's say you and I would climb all the way to top of the mountain. We're up on top of the mountain. There's a whole group of people we wanted to come with us, but they're lost at the bottom of the mountain. Now we can holler and scream you should have gone the way we went, you should have taken this path, you shouldn't. At the end of the day, they can't even hear

us because they're at the bottom of the mountain. So if we truly want to impact them, we have to have the discipline to leave where we are and go meet them where they are and got them from there. But here's what happens. People say I shouldn't have to I shouldn't have to tell people my side. That's pure ego, that's pure arrogance. You shouldn't have to to convey the information you have. Like can you imagine the arrogance that goes into that thought. I shouldn't have to tell people

my beliefs. They should just know what are you the divine being of the planet? Like, of course we are going to have to know, like teach us your side, but understand too that we also have a side. You know. I say this frequently. Um, It's one of those things. I wake up every morning, I meditate, I try to picture standing in front of seven plus billion people, and I say, what conscious statement can I give the world? I do it every day. This is the habit. It

gives me intentionality with what I'm doing. But one day I said something to the effect exactly how phrase that? But it was something like those who have traversed the mountain from multiple paths are difficult to convince that only

one path exists. And to me, it's one of the statements I felt like came from the depth of me, maybe outside of me, because I really do believe this, Like we might really convince ourselves no, I know, truth, But what if we encounter people who not only heard this, but also heard this, this, this, and this and have gone up that way. Yep, that's a great statement. It made me think of and it's not the same statement

at all. But the phrase that has come to my mind a couple of times, and you'll resonate with this

being uh Zen Buddhist practitioner, is Suzuki's phrase. In the beginner's mind, there's many possibilities and the experts there's few I love that I love, and I you know, I want to highlight you made a wonderful, wonderful point which was even in that sense, and I'm so glad you highlighted this even in something as I might be able to say statistically that seven out of ten people go back to prison, but I agree wholeheartedly that it's only my belief that that number is not okay, because someone

else could have that number and go well, that's a good number to have, and that's okay. What I do is say, yes, I still do believe. I have my beliefs. I'm a practicing Zen Buddhist. This is a belief that sits with me. It resonates with me with my family. But I'm really open that someone else with a different perspective could be absolutely have the correct answers, and I could be off. And I really live my life like this.

I don't think, because I think a lot of people who subscribe to this type of approach will ultimately say and because I have it, my approach is right, whereas I look at and go, no, this is just the approach I have, and I love learning, and I who how do I know that someone else who's very steadfast and narrow in their view maybe they're correct and I'm wrong. And yet you still have that belief and you still advocate to try and make the world that you've envision

come to be. Yes, that's it. Some lady called my radio show. So I do this radio radio show. It's a call in talk show on Monday nights. And the lady called in and she said, um, well, I don't know about this non attachment stuff. What if this non attachment stuff is completely wrong? And I go, yeah, it might be, and she was yeah, yeah, oh I guess I was like, yeah, Like I'm not saying if I was attached to non attachment, that would be the same thing. And then we talk of the soap of the teachings.

You wash your coat with that soap, but that's not making it clean. To be fully clean, you gotta rinse that soap out. It's the soap of the teachings. We gotta rinse that off. So even the greatest belief is still holding you back. Heinrich Zimmer said, our highest God is our highest obstruction to God. So in other words, whatever our final vision of what God is, it falls short because I'm a quote one more time, that doubt opening line. The doubt that can be told is not

the eternal dow. The name that can be named is not the eternal name. In other words, we always fall short because it's something more yep, wonderful. Well, we are out of time. It just snuck up on us here, and so we're gonna wrap up. You and I are going to talk more in the post show conversation about creativity and how creativity can be either our friend or

our enemy when it comes to dealing with anger. Listeners, If you'd like to get access to the post show conversation, a weekly mini episode for me ad free episodes, and other great stuff, you can go to One you Feed dot net slash join and become a member of our community. Christian, thank you so much for coming on. I've definitely enjoyed this. Thank you so much for having me that everyone listening.

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