David Richo on Navigating the Five Givens in Life

hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Our guest today is David Rico, PhD. He's a psychotherapist, teacher, workshop leader, and a writer who works in Santa Barbara

and San Francisco, California. He combines young i in poetic and mythic perspectives in his work with the intention of integrating the psychological and the spiritual. His books and workshops include attention to Buddhist and Christian spiritual practices. He is the author of the classic How to Be an Adult, a handbook on psychological and spiritual integration, and his latest book is called Five True Things, A Little Guide to Embracing Life's Big Challenges. And here is our conversation with

David Hi. Dave, Welcome to the show, Sarah. Nice to be here. It's a pleasure to have you on. Your book is called Five True Things, A Little Guide to Embracing Life's Big Challenges. And we will talk more about that in a moment, but we'll start like we always do, with the parable. There's a grandfather who's talking with his granddaughter and he says, in life, there are two wolves

inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the granddaughter stops. She thinks about it for a second, and she looks up at her grandfather and she says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in

the work that you do well. First of all, I relate to it very well, and I do understand what you mean. And when he says it depends on which one you feed, there I have a question because I believe that all through life we from time to time feed either one, and that we walk through life with the good wolf on one side and the bad wolf on the other, and it's never just entirely a life

of one or the other. Since we all have a shadow side, since we all have a doctor Jacqueline mr Hyde orientation, then I'm presuming and noticing that, um, we feed both of them at one time or another. And I would also say this, at the end of his life, Hitler's good wolf wolf was still alive, and at the end of her life, Mother Teresa's bad wolf was still alive.

I know that sounds like an unusual comment, but it goes with the union sense of all of us having a saintly side and a shall we say, demonic side, and we would never want to imagine that either one of them had totally disappeared, right, And I think that's why I love the parable, because it sort of makes it sound like, hey, we all have this battle and it's kind of a close match, right. It's it's you know, like the one you feed is the one that wins,

but maybe only by a little bit, right. And I think it normalizes what you said, that we have both these things inside of us. We were never freed of them, like you said. And I think that's a perfection. Is not a real human option. We might strive for it, but it's not a real human option. I certainly agree. It's not one of the givens of life. Yeah, so let's talk about the givens. You say there's five true things.

You also refer to them as the five unavoidable givens, And let's get into what those are in a minute. But first let's talk about what do you mean by a given? What does that mean to you? How are you using that term a given as an unalterable fact of life that all of us have to pay attention to and accept. For instance, one of the givens is um that at some point we will die. That's just a fact about human existence that all of us have

to accept. Now, we have some leeway as to how long we might live, depending on our health, habits, and our genetic makeup and any unforeseen accidents that may come along, but the given is that, and the variable is how and when it happens, right right. The other thing that you say about given is you say, you know, first, yes, it's a condition that cannot be changed, but you say

it's also something that has been granted to us. So you're using the term given in both an immutable fact as well as something that could be looked at as something we've been given. I also see the givens of life, and I'm referring to five specific ones in this book, but I just think that somehow there are also graces that have come our way, right right, kind of a gift to mention of life. Since these givens, which will soon describe, turn on to be the ingredients of a

life that has meaning, character, depth, compassion. Right, So let's talk about what they are the five givens. Okay, first of all, there are thousands of givens, but the five that I'm working with in the book are One everything changes and ends. Two things do not always go according to our plans. Three life is not always fair, for pain is part of everyone's life. And five people are

not loyal and loving all the time. So when I do quarrel with those, I am being my head against the wall because they are the givens of our life on this planet. So if I could say yes to these, I would be doing a lot to bring more equanimity and serenity into my life. The serenity to accept the things I cannot change is basically what this is about. Right,

That's the topic of my book. So many of help books around the second part of the prayer, which is the courage to change the things that I can change. Self help books are about changing. But this book is not about changing. It's about accepting what can't be changed, while trusting that if it's like this here you're on Earth, and if this whole earth is oriented towards more and more evolution, towards higher consciousness, then it must be that

givens like these are not penalties. They are not horrible fates that have been thrust upon us. They somehow have a gift dimension because each one of them helps us be stronger and more realistic. Right you say that we behave as if somehow these givens aren't always in effect or not applicable to all of us. But when we oppose these five basic truths, we resist reality, and life then becomes an endless series of disappointments, frustrations and sorrows. Yes,

that's always see it. Yeah, that's a really great way to look at and I think it is so true. There is I've often said I think the Serenity Prayer is the wisest thing ever written, right, and that the trick for most of us is the last part of it, the wisdom to actually know. For some things it's very obvious.

I can't change the weather, I can change my clothes, right, And then you get into these really complicated areas, and your your book here sort of wades a little bit into how you can sort of see more nuance in different areas of your life by accepting that these sort

of things are true. And you know, it just makes me think about, makes me think about like I had to put a couple of dogs to sleep a couple of years ago, within about eight months of each other, and I just remember by the fact that I was really clear that like, this is just what happens. I didn't have a quarrel with the universe over it, right, All I had was the sadness, and that was plenty. That was plenty, right, but I think it's you know,

we talked on this show often. In your book goes over it a lot too, about how we take these things that happen in life that might cause us sorrow or sadness or whatever, and then we add all this stuff to it, and that quarreling with life is part of what we add to it that makes our suffering grow. I really agree with that, and that's a very good way to put it. In other words, we um create our own suffering by our no to what is right.

When we're insisting that everything go the way we wanted to go, we're setting ourselves up for the terrible pain of disappointment. And it's certainly okay to wish that things were different. I'm thinking of the stanza from famous poem the Rubaiyat of omark I am, and I think this is in book, But anyway, it goes like this, Love, if you and I could but conspire to change this sorry scheme of things entire, would we not shatter it to bits and mold it nearer to the heart's desire.

So if I had my chance, I would change these givens. I would say things can remain the same for as long as I want them to, rather than everything changes in ends beyond my control. And it's okay to have that wish, to like while away a quiet afternoon, but to live as if that were possible, or to demand it gets us into big trouble because we're not sitting in the saddle and the dire action the horses going.

I love, I love that phrase of yours. You say, saying yes to reality, to the things we cannot change, is like choosing to turn around and sit in the saddle in the direction the horses going. And I think that is such a great phrase that really sums this up. And as you were reading that poem there, it made me think of something somebody a friend of mine just sent me was right before the show, an email. It said that they had heard of in the High Faith that one of the definitions of God is the one

who turns things up. I thought that was so great because it sort of speaks to this, And what it speaks to is the next line of yours that I want to read here. You say that I found that anything that crosses swords with are entitled ego is a powerful source of transformation and inner evolution. Yeah, because the ego is the part of us egos the Latin word for I egos, the part of us that's shall we say, I centered, And we live in a world that's a

continually evolving web of life. It's not every man for himself, it's we're all in this together, and we're linked. And in Buddhism there's the realization that there is no separate self, that all of us are connected, and when the ego steps in, it tries to control the givens. In fact, I would say the opposite of yes in our context here is not know. The opposite of yes is I

can control this. For instance, let's say we're looking at the given that people are not loving or loyal all the time, but yet in our relationship with someone special, we demand that he or she be loving and loyal all the time, since that's what we believe we're entitled to, and that entitlement is one of the characteristics of this inflated ego that we've been talking about. So when you demand that from someone, first of all, you're demanding something

that's not humanly possible. Secondly, it's contraries to that given that all of us are loving at times, but at moments we might be unloving and we're all loyal and we're in some ways we're loyal all the time, but in other ways we're not as loyal as someone would like us to be. So if I can be okay with the ever moving pageant of human behavior, I'm going to have a much happier relationship and one that doesn't

put so many unrealistic demands on my partner. So this is how accepting these givens to love more because love is accepting someone just as he or she is, and everyone comes in with these same five givens. Everyone occasionally makes plans with us that could fall through because she's often late or he sometimes forgets. But when you start off with well, anything can happen here because the human elements is always at work, you're gonna have a much

happier time. Yeah, I think that, you know, particularly that people will not always be loving all the time is such a big one. Like my girlfriend to tell you right now, I was not as loving as I as I could have been last night. You know, I got kind of grumpy about things. I mean, I didn't I

wasn't mean or anything. I just was kind of like in my own kind of space and learning that about other people is really helpful because I know when I was younger, you know, I would read every little sign like that is that it had some meaning, right, And it doesn't in most cases, right, it doesn't. It's it's the way people oscillate, you know. And knowing that is a is a real freedom. And I love that line. The opposite of yes is not know, it is control. And and you go on to say, I think this

is really important too. We do not let go of control. We let go of the belief that we have control. Yeah, you want to remain in control of the car, and you have to let go of the belief that you're in control of everything. Right. That reminds me of something you say that all the givens of life are based on one underlying fact. Anything can happen to anyone. This is the given of givens, and that is a sort

of terrifying possibility at first glance. Mark Mark Neppo, who we had on the podcast, calls it the terrible knowledge, you know, the terrible knowledge that, like you said, anything can happen to any of us anytime. We are completely out of control in that regard, as far as these forces outside of us. Absolutely, And so you know someone who smokes and says, well, maybe smoking doesn't cause cancer, but that won't happen to me. That's the opposite of

anything can happen to anybody. Right And suddenly, the purpose then that we would be aiming at, if we're coming from a healthy place, is not to get off Scott free, to live a charmed life, to make sure most of the bad things that happens to some people don't ever happen to us. It would be more about how do I keep building the inner resources that made me strong

enough to handle whatever gibbons come my way? Right? And I think that that is the heart of it, right is I remember thinking this, You know, I was in twelve step recovery for a long time and trying to sort of you know, when I started, I had this really immature idea of what God and spirituality was, and it was basically like, if I do really good, no bad things will happen to me until some really bad things happen to me. And I went, well, okay, that

is a pretty immature way of viewing the world. And where I landed was that it wasn't that bad things wouldn't happen to me. It was that I had a faith that by applying certain spiritual principles, certain approaches, that I would be able to handle whatever life gave me. And that's a very different thing, but is also an enormously comforting thing when we get to that point, because then we are less afraid of everything. M hm. Yes, And I think one of the I like what you

just said, Eric, and I totally agree, of course. And I think all another elements of this that has really helped me to get to what you just described is to become really skilled at grief. Yeah, because every one

of these five has grief in it. If things are going to end and we're going to cry, if things don't go according to plan, we're going to be sad, If life is not fair, we're going to be greeting that, if pain is part of life that's going to hurt and bother us, and if certainly, if people are not loving and loyal all the time, we're going to be grieving because we had expected otherwise. So every one of

these has grief in it. And since grief is the feeling that most of us avoid, like the plague, then it's understandable that it would be hard for us to say yes unconditionally to the way life is, so the part of it that's beyond our control, which is of course the biggest part of the pie. So I keep reminding myself that the more I can be comfortable with the feelings of grief, which our sadness, anger, fear. I'm sad that I didn't get my way. I'm angry I

didn't get my way. I'm afraid I that my not getting my way is going to hurt me in some fashion. I can keep practicing letting my self have those feelings, And there's a direct connection between being okay with grief and being able to say yes and let go of trying to control things. Because also it's true that one of the main reasons we do try to control things is because if they don't go our way, we will

be sad that they didn't go our way. So if you really look carefully, you realize that even control itself, it's not only based on the fear of not getting what we want. It's based on the grief that not getting what we want we will be sad. That's the lowest common denominator of it, right, and control is you know, I sort of think that at the heart of so much of this stuff is exactly what you said. It's the ability to be with the emotions that life brings

and not let them be a catastrophe. Right. You know, a lot of us we will go to great lengths to avoid that, and we have very extreme measures of doing it, whether it be alcohol or drugs or gambling. We have slightly less extreme, whether it be eating or

watching a lot of TV. And then we get more and more subtle, you know, And that's where we start to get into control, and we start to get into some of the spiritual stuff like well, you know, I just observe we get more and more sophisticated as we grow, and we learn more and more sophisticated with ways that we can avoid having to deal with the feelings. And I think what you said is so important. And this is a work in progress for me. I'm sure it

is for everyone. But the more that I'm able to be like, all right, I can feel sad, I can sit here and cry and I can be okay with that. I don't like it. I'm not gonna seek it out, but I can do it. And also realizing that feelings have a life cycle. They come, they peak, they crest, they go, like the first given, every thing ends, you know. And so sometimes it's when we realized that that makes

such a big change. It was the fundamental thing that I realized that allowed me to stop doing Heroin right, was that I went, I can have these really awful feelings. I can sit here. They'll come and they'll pass and I will survive. And it sure is better not to do something really destructive when I'm in the midst of them, right, And you know, and so I couldn't agree with you more.

I think that that's so important. It makes me think of another guest we had, whose name is David K. Reynolds, and he wrote a book called Constructive Living, and in it he had a line that really kind of floored me, and he said, when we're able to trust in our behavior, then we can allow our feelings to really be And that speaks so true to me. When I knew that having a bad feeling wasn't going to cause me to run off and go on some epic binge the behavior,

I knew I could sort of handle my behavior. I was free to allow emotion to run have more space my life. Oh, that's a beautiful way to put it. I'm impressed with you, know what you're saying. So I want to ask you a question in a slightly different direction, although it will circle back to the very same place. And that's that you're known for writing books, you know, the first one called How to be an Adult, How to be an Adult in Relationships. Being an adult is

in the framework that runs through even this book. You reference it often. What do you mean by being in an adult and why is it good to be one? I would say, um, being an adult first of all, would be adhering to the prayer that we mentioned before,

the one used in the twelve step programs. It's written by Ryan Hold Neibor of Lutheran Theologian, That we would have the serenity to accept the givens of life, the things we can't change, and appreciate them as graces that are helping us become people of character, your depth, and compassion.

That we would work on being strong enough to confront the issues in our life that require some kind of change, like changing behaviors and our personality that are ineffective in our relationships, and we can learn to do that, and we can keep practicing it and gradually will we will make changes. So some things can be changed, and we're always wanting to work on those and that's not only applicable to ourselves but to the society around us. We also want to do what we can to make this

a better world. And then finally, the wisdoms know the difference, which is entirely a grace comes to us from power beyond our own ego. We can't really make it happen, but we can always ask for it. May I have uh wisdom to know the difference between what I can change and what I can't change. Ye, So to me memorize is what being an adults is about. And then I try to apply it to our personal life and

to our relationships. Yep, that's great. There is something you talk about being an adult often, and when I read it, I'm like, that's the way I kind of want to be. That's the opposite of the kind of magical thinking that everything will come out the way I want it, right right? Yep. You also say that I'm want to ask you to elaborate on this. You say, a spiritually evolved adult seeks

not an answer but a significance. What do you mean by that that instead of looking for solutions and answers to everything that bothers us, we would live with the questions and notice where they take us. That we would um look for a meaning, which is one of our essential longings. My other book is called The Fine Longings, and one of these longings is meaning. So we're looking

for what does this signify in my life? In the sense that this offers me an opportunity to grow both psychologically and spiritually, or another way of putting it is everything that happens has a meaning when meaning includes the opportunity for evolving. It's not like the New Age approach that you know everything had quote. Everything happens for a reason. It's not about the magical thinking that somehow the world is designing itself so that I I can have exactly

what I want. Is that the world is shaping up the way it is shaping up, and all that matters is in every shape it takes. There's some chance that I could step up to the plate as a full on adult who will say yes to the part of it that can't be changed, and yes to the part of it that can be changed, and somehow from all

that I will gradually become more and more adult. You said so many great things in there, and the way that you defined meaning right in that if we define meaning as we are able to find an opportunity for growth in this. I almost wanted to applaud um because that is so that is so critical, And I also

agree with you this idea. When I hear like everything happens for a reason, I just cringe a little bit because, like you said, it always seems strange to me that the universe would be out there going all right, well, you know what, I'm going to cause Bob to get in a car accident and so that Sally has an opportunity to grow. Like I'm like, hang on a second. Talk about taking the ego to its furthest extent that

the world is another wish for control. Along with statements like I chose my own parents, there were saying we even had control before we were conceived. Oh wow, that's really interesting. I never thought of it in that light, all these New Age superstitions. Bed rock reality is the alternative. Yeah, how is what's happening now offering me yet another chance to act to loving kindness and hold this with mindfulness.

Those are the examples of our spiritual practices that get a chance, shall we say two be expressed through the events that are occurring. Yep, I couldn't agree more. I think that is such a such an important point. It made me think of something else that you wrote that I kind of wanted to talk about, because I think we can sort of head into this. And the word spiritual is used all the time, we use it. We

offered a program called spiritual habits, right, it's used everywhere. Right. However, what it means is, you know, always kind up for debate. You have a definition of it that I love. And you say that spirituality is the intersection of three paths, letting go of ego, an unconditional yes to the conditions of human experience, and an immeasurable compassion. That's just again I could applaud that. That is so good. Oh thank you. It took me many years to come up with that.

Well I can see why, because it really does. I mean, it just sums up to me like what we're after when we're talking about spirituality. Mm hmm. And all three of those are challenges, you know, It's not the comforting candles and incense and holy pictures. It's hey, can I let go my ego in this conflict I'm having at work or at home? That's what shows me that spirituality has come alive in Then I say yes to the givens of life rather than fight them tooth and nail

and believe I'm entitled to an exemption. Can I feel compassion for those who suffer as I do or different from the way I do? Can I feel compassion for the perpetrator and the victim? When I get to that point, that's the flourishing of spirituality. And I have the kind of compassion that's not selective. It's not based on who seduced me into having pity for him or her. Is just for all suffering across the board. Those who endure it and those who cause it equally become the subjects

of my compassion at heart. Right, it reminds me of the zen vow all beings one body, I vow to save them. Yeah, it doesn't really leave anything out. So the other thing I thought of that after we were talking about people wanting to control things by magical thinking, And that's an insight I'm going to be pondering tonight for a while, because I never saw it in that lightest control made me think of a phrase, things don't happen for the best, but we can make the best

out of what happens. Oh, yes, that would be a great example of the opposite of magical. So magical thinking is they will turn out for the best. Now, what you're saying is they will turn out the way they turn out, and then it will be up to me to make the best of the way they turn out exactly, and I will have that chance. Yes, yes, And I think that is that is it. You know, things don't happen for the best. It's a beautiful way. And I

really like that. Yeah, things don't happen for the best, but we can make the best out of what happens. And I think that's just a really it's been my my experience, you know. And in a similar vein you had a line I really like, which is the challenge is to find our destiny in exactly what we are refusing to engage in. And I think that's a really that's a really great way to sum up a lot of what we've talked about, which is that by saying no or trying to control. We are trying not to

engage in something, but that when we do. You said, we find our destiny by engaging with these things that are hardest for us to say yes to. I often find that, right. I've gotten really good at saying yes to a lot of things, but there are still some that are my trigger. When they happen, I'm like, you know, I could just feel myself inside no no, no, no, like a child. Yeah, we still haven't gotten that reality is ruthless. Yes it is. It is. I like that

phrase you used a few minutes ago, bedrock reality. That life is not going to let us get away with anything. And the reason it's doing this is not because it's a harsh task master or because we deserve punishment. And by the way, that's all when to come back to that in the moment, it's because that's the way it is.

And when I say yes to the way it is, I noticed myself expanding, growing, evolving, Yes, And I wanted to throw in that regarding this idea of suffering, that another way of being realistic is getting it that happiness is not a reward and suffering is not a punishment. So we no longer think I must have done something wrong and that's why I have this illness, or that's why these terrible things are happening to me. It isn't

set up that way. It isn't as if there's someone who's making sure that you get yours right either direction, negatively or positively. It's it's the way it is. It's the way the chips have fallen, and how do I make the best of the way they fell to? You know, echo what you just said. I think that's an enormously adult, that is mature, realistic way of looking at the things

that happens to us. I couldn't agree more. And I was going to circle back to that because you in the book, you use it in the context of the first noble truth of Buddhism, which has often translated as life is suffering or life is unsatisfactory. And that's when you use that that line where you say, another way of stating this truth or given is that pain is not a punishment and happiness is not a reward. They are simply features of any existence. And that is so true,

and I love that. It's a great way to think about that first noble truth. M hm, Yes, I agree. All this makes me think of you know that Buddhism talks about the three marks of existence, right, you know, I think things are impermanent. There's actually no no self,

and there's unsatisfactory nous built into life. And we had a teacher on Ruth King and she has this phrase that I've used over and over I've talked to my coaching clients everything, which is that life isn't permanent, personal or perfect, and that you know, really covers so much of what we're talking about here, you know, and it's just a very little it's a very good catch phrase that I can sort of when I'm suffering, I can ask myself, am I expecting life something to be permanent?

Am I taking this personally? Am I expecting that things are going to be perfect? And if I am, then I'm arguing against the three marks of existence or the givens of life. There's lots of different ways to say what you're saying. Or I'm arguing against things that can't be changed. The stubborn facts, that's another good one. The stubborn that they are very stubborn facts. Yes, as in immovable.

And since everything is here toward evolving, it it has to be that such givens as we face, must also have an evolutionary impulse in them that is moving us along in the direction of more consciousness and more connection, the two purposes of evolution. So so that's another reason to trust. Our yes is based on a trust that if it's like this, it must be right, not right morally,

but right on or fitting appropriate. When I align myself to these givens, the five that I mentioned in the book, or any of the thousands that we encounter in the course of our life. When I do that, I'm joining in with the forces that helped me evolve. And that's a wonderful reward. It is that comes. Yes, it is, and I think that is a beautiful place to wrap up, because you and I are out of time and I

don't think we could end it any better than that. Well, thank you, yeah, thank you so much for coming on. I've really enjoyed the conversation and it's been a pleasure. Thanks a lot, Eric, and good luck in your work. You're doing really important stuff. Thank you. Thank you. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a donation to the one you Feed podcast. Head

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