Colin Gawel: Fatherhood and Resilience

or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Colin Gowl, guitarist of the American band Watershed. Colin also has a solo career

with and without his backing band, The Lonely Bones. His album Superior, The Best of Colin Gowl was released in December two thousand sixteen. Colin is also the lead writer, editor and founder of the website pencil Storm and the owner of the legendary Collins Coffee in Columbus, Ohio. This conversation was recorded live in Collins Kitchen and is focused on fatherhood in honor of Father's Day this upcoming weekend. If you value the content we put out each week,

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in advance for your help. And here's the interview with Colin gol Hi. Colin, Welcome to the show. Great to be here. I'm excited to have you on for a couple of reasons. I think you are one of the friends that I've had longest in my life, a long time since we were like ten or something, which is a long time and I also think you are probably one of the most criminally underrated and unknown songwriters there

is out there. So and we'll talk some about your songs and uh, but I'm excited to have you on. I think it's gonna be fun. I'm thrilled to be here. I know. It is funny how our lives just always seemed they always seem to connect some way, somehow. We never really set out, but just they're always kind of just going back and back and forth. Here we are, So let's start like we always do, with the parable.

There's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson. He says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second, looks up at his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And

the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that

you do. Well, I think, especially coming mostly as a background musician and a touring musician, you see talent of people that fall into bad habits, and they, you know, everyone kind of has some energy when they're young and you can go out and do it, and then when you get kind of you know, you get hit or you know, you get around some unhealthy people, things fall apart.

So I think, to me, it's always been, you know, having spent most of my life probably till I was like from eighteen to thirty five touring, it was like, how do I healthy habits? How do I keep playing music without you know, drinking too much or getting bitter or I guess just basically you know, falling off that pyramid.

So I always try to take you know, each day at a time, try and stay creative, try and have um, you know, healthy habits, like when things get tough, like you know, you run, you go work out, you try to eat right, you try to control the things you can. You try to make good decisions when you're in the space to make good decisions, knowing that at some point you're probably not going to make good decisions, if that

makes any sense. So I guess that's kind of how I kind of approach it and almost like a very day to day I don't think long term. I think more like, what can I do today? What can I do now? If I'm not tired? Why would I drink coffee right now? I don't need it right now? Just drink water? Uh, you know, things like that, and just kind of keep me on the path to you know, being creative and you know, being a healthy person and still trying to achieve something on a on a whatever

that means on a day to day basis. So I guess that would be my I think I learned more from watching others what what not to do right, and I try to, you know, pick up on those cues and carve out my own little path that'll kind of just keep me surviving from a day to day basis, If that makes any sense. Ye. So true. Long time listeners like way long time listeners of the show, or

people who have gone back through the archives. I may have listened to one with Joe A. Strike who was an author but also a musician, and his book was about the band Watershed and Colin, who we're talking to now is one of the main characters in the book. Just to kind of frame up where we come from. What I'd like to start with today though, is Father's Day. So Father's Day is this upcoming weekend. We are both fathers.

My son's about five six years older than yours. But you have written a song recently called Dad Can't Help You Now. It's the last game of the season. You're standing out on the map, owned pieces loaded, discoreaside, and the batter has a full count and you're staring in at you catch her. And I've never been more proud. But my heart shakes, buddy, because Dad can't help you now. Trade every guest I ever got to get you one more strike. I'd volunteer to be the EIFL tower for

Leezy Flyball the right. Now, remember that it's just a game. But don't forget to cover home. You're not alone out there. Dad can't help you now. So that song from the first time I heard it still to today, chokes me

up almost every time I hear it. So tell me a little bit about that song got your son pitching, you know, an important moment, And you know, was that one of the first times you really recognize like, Okay, now he's sort of out of my hands, like up to up to a certain age with our kids, we can control an awful lot. Yeah, I mean it's specifically the song was written quickly, like in my car drive.

I remember where I was by Thompson Park and all of a sudden it just kind of came to me and I literally just kind of jotted it down or talked into my phone almost the whole thing. Now, obviously it came from the fact, as you would know as a parent, you're watching your kid in you sports, and I think we're both similar in the sense that you know, our son's played sports, we like sports. We're not like sporty guys per se. But there's a lot of energy

wrapped around watching your child out there doing sports. And you know, the community that we live in it's pretty sports centric, so there's a lot around that, and I've helped coach. But obviously, you know, watching it's kind of like those lessons that you want to be out there with him, You want to do anything for him, you want him to succeed so badly. Um that it's a fine line. You can you don't want to be one

of those crazy parents. But I mean, obviously the song is just born from like you know, you're you know, you're out there by yourself. This is it. Bases are loaded, and I want it so bad for you. But you know what, even in the end, you know, failings okay too, because you're gonna fail more often life than not. And I think that's obviously that what you try to get across to me is as a parent is don't worry about results, just do the process, which obviously no one

young can do. Ye. We only listen to a little bit of the song, so um, I won't give away the ending of what happens, but you definitely, folks go check it out. We'll have links to it. But one of the things I like in that song is you've got a line about sort of remember it's just a game, and also remember to cover home plate, right, because that's the thing that's always so challenging for me with you sports.

On one hand, I'm like, I want him to care, I want him to be committed, like to whatever it is in life he's doing, and I also don't want him to take it too seriously. And how do you balance those too? And I thought that line was sort of a great combination of of that. Know, I appreciate I do like you remember it just a game, but

don't forget to cover home. And it's such a dad's statement, I mean's something you would absolutely you'd say, like as he's getting out of the car and walking away, you know, remember just a game. Also, don't forget to come her home because you just can't help. And of course your kid looks at you like shut up, but you just cannot help throwing that last bit of advice in. It's kind of like the have fun and be careful. You

just you can't let it go sometimes exactly. And it's funny as as we're sitting here talking, my son is literally playing a baseball game two blocks away while we're doing this. It's gonna start in a little bit, and he's been in a hitting slump and he's frustrated and I went out and he want to hit this morning.

He's like, I'm terrible, And you're trying to grasp for those words as a dad, like, you know, just try to have a good attitude and overcoming adversity, you know, just you know, just get through it and you'll if you do that, people will still feel good about what you did. And of course he's like, are you crazy? I'm striking out a miserable you know where you're trying to import this wisdom and I'm trying to back off, you know, because if you're you know, sorry O when

you may not get here today. It's been really rough up there. But how do you get you know, those those lessons you're having those moments to keep them engaged and on your side and get them through it um

And those are obviously the challenging. That's where you sports really presents those moments where you really have a you know, a direct conversation about a very specific bit of adversity and you know, and your brains trying to grapple with that and how you know to make it okay and and let him know, I said, you know, you know, it's not the end of the world either, you know, if it doesn't you know, no one's counting on you

to win the game today. And of course all that stuff, they just look at you like whatever, yeah, yeah, well I'm staring down the ultimate Dad can't help you now a moment with you know, my son going off to college in a couple of months, like that's a whole another level of like okay, here here you go, like I'm kind of not done as a parent, right, but in a lot of significant ways, I am, right, oh absolutely, And we know we're I've been going to some graduation

parties and I was thinking about, you know, Owen leaven and what that will be like because he's you know, was his only child and we're pretty ends on and all that. But I think about going to college and specifically, like, you know, I don't know how much you've shared, but you were you had a pretty interesting wildlife. So and I'm not your typical dad per se, But I mean, how do you think when you're like, man, he's gonna go off there and be unsupervised. I mean, you know,

how how have you reconciled that with the stuff. It's like, hey, I did all this stuff and turned out okay, but you probably shouldn't do that. I mean, how have you and I sat on into it. I'm just curious knowing your background. Well, I turned out okay, you know, by by the hair and my chinny chin chin, right, Like, I mean, the fact that he's going to be in school is a big improvement over where I was because I just chose those years to be like just totally

run wild. So if he stays in school, you know, I think that would be great. You know, kids these days, he's you know, is he involved in drinking and drugs probably to someone degree. What kids? And I keep hearing parents say like, well, I'm worried about that's a party school, And I was like, what school isn't They're all party schools.

They want a party. Yeah, I mean, you know, And I've had frank conversations with him a bunch of times about how look, based on your mom and I history, you might react differently to this, absolutely, and you got to keep your eye on it. I also know how sneaky it is, and it would likely creep up on him without knowing he personality wise, that was a little bit different than I was when I was younger. He's a lot more laid back and sort of seems to be kind of content and comfortable in his own skin,

which I was not. So I cling to that as my faint hope that it will be all right. But yeah, I mean, I expect he's got to figure it out. At this point. I've kind of done everything I can. You know, advice from dad about being careful at college

and not drinking too much is like pointless right. My mom was in a and we had a lot of discussions when I was younger, like fifteen or sixteen, and she would be like she gave up drinking and I had no idea what was going on, but she was the same thing, like, you need to keep an eye on this. You need to watch his family history. Did anyone ever have that discussion with you when you were going up? Were you aware of any kind of history?

Because I wonder how much that matters, you know, because I feel like my mom in a way like having that conversation, because if you don't even think about it, it would be very easy to go and just you're just off the rails. But being kind of exposed to that and being like, this is something you have to watch out for. Because I had the same conversations with no one like you know, A, you're young, it's bad for your brain. Now, you don't want to do it anyway,

you know, blah blah blah. But you know he's gonna know. I mean, I can't be hypocrite. You know, I've been a rock band. I did all these things for all these years. But somewhere in the back of my brain was always like just stuff will sneak up on you, so you need to watch it all the time. And I think that gave me an edge over maybe someone who never had heard that, because you can just go and then it's too late, if that makes sense. Do

you think alcohol isn't so complex? Like I don't really know if it would have mattered, Like there's certainly you know, they say there's a genetic component to it, right, which I think I reacted very differently to alcohol from the first time I tried it from anybody I knew, and I managed to kind of put it on ice by not drinking at all, and then I was you know, once I was free, I was just off and run.

It was like a light switch flipped. And I don't know that anything could have I mean, you know, I had a dear mentor at that time, Ed Shay was a teacher and he, you know, he did so many things for me, took me to Seattle, all this, and I remember one night he died not long after, sitting in his truck and he was crying like you gotta stop this, and I didn't. I mean, you know, I

mean nothing. And that was relatively early in the game for me because so I don't know, because I remember like the same kind of same time, you know, that summer when you're old enough to drink or whatever, and all of a sudden you get pleased to meet me and you're just you know, you know what I mean,

Like that's kind of like that's what you're doing. But I'm like, man, I hope Owen doesn't do that, you know, I hope he doesn't go down that road because I remember being at a bar, you know, a lot of nights, and I don't know that was what we did, um, but you know that that's I mean, I think being a parent, the I mean, the number one thing I think any parent that's had any exposure to that world is like, don't get addicted to drugs, don't get a

drinking obe. It's don't don't. I mean, your life will be so hard. I mean, you know that it's so hard. You don't want to go so far that you gotta come all the way back. I mean, I obviously don't do any of that stuff, but I look at people that do and I think, well, if you're able to keep that under control, like wonderful, Like I hope Jordan is able to drink and do that stuff like normally. I think it's a legitimate pleasure a lot of people have in life that I wish I had at my disposal.

I just don't. Um. So you know, it's not like I want to turn him into a teetotaler. That's not how you say that teetotaler. We know what you mean. UM, but I but but I don't. You know, it's just the addiction piece that you you don't want to anything. So, um, why don't we transition to somehow? You had some funny stuff about when we played baseball as kids, so well, yeah, I mean that was one we had the idea to do.

This is that you know, growing up here we are talking about Dad can't help you now, And we played on a baseball team. Part I don't. I remember this pretty vividly because I was kind of into baseball. We were on a team together and it was maybe like sixth grade or seventh grade, and I think your dad was a head coach. My dad was assistant coach, and our team was terrible. And I also remembered like the

mound was kind of was the last year. The mound was kind of close, So I remember like facing guys like Randy Klinger as I remember thinking, I don't think I gotta hit all the year, Like I wasn't that big physically, neither were you. We were decently skilled, but that year where I just felt like the picture was right on top of you. And I remember just like that year, it was just like this is terrible, Like I just couldn't get a hit and our team was terrible.

And then the next year things moved back and I was on a pretty good team and we were like the number one seed going the We were named after French and Cheek, the two kids that got killed up on twenty three, and then you guys were like the last seed. We played your team the next year and you guys upset us in the first round. Remember, and there was a fly ball. It was a pop up.

I was being saved the next game as a picture, and we collided in the ball dropped and two runs scored and we lost the game, and I just sat and I was I cried. I mean, I was so miserable about losing that game. And that's where I had mentioned too. I remember my head saying like, don't think my dad was a fan of your dad. So there's like some bad blood there too, Like it was like this a whole little league moment. But I remember that game. You probably don't, but I remember, like I remember that

that year in general. I mean, no comment on my dad, but your father would not be alone in that opinion. I mean that was just random kids. I don't even know what little intense Maybe that's what my dad was a little a little probably intense kind of thing that we look at now and you look at and you're like, come on, like it's a game, like let these kids

be personal. I remember I never said any at one point, like I said something like like I'm not sure about him, like which as much as you get for my dad, or and maybe this isn't a great fit or something like that, you know what I mean, Like I'm sure it wasn't, you know, but yeah, we played on that baseball team together and we went ow in fifteen. But you know that is the crush of the song is and this is this is life, right, This is the only thing that matters is how do you come back

from adversity? That's all that matters. That's all watershed is. We're not that great, but we just somehow persevere and if you persevere, whether it's you know, in any form, it's almost a wind I mean and ins o way, and like, that's what you're trying to when you lose, to get through it and go to the next day.

And that's that's obviously what I try to do. And that's obviously as a parent, what you're trying to teach your son is you know things aren't going to go your way, but you know, if you can just compose yourself and come back to fight another day, that's there's pride in that you shout take to be proud of fighting whatever, whatever your challenge is. Yeah, coming back, how you keep going is one of the most important skills that you can have. And you know, watersheds interesting and

we covered this sum in in Joe's book. But you guys are still a rock band. I mean, you're really popular here. When you play, you turn out a ton of people you were very close to, uh, you know, more major success. You are on a major label. You guys keep doing it. And one of the things that I see out of it is and I see this with you and a lot of things, your solo writing, your website, pencil storm, I see like a love of

doing these things because you love doing these things. I mean, everybody wants what they're doing to be viewed and to be successful. But one of the things I admire and you is you just keep doing creative work and if people are paying attention, wonderful and if they're not, okay, and you know, you're kind of doing it because it because you love doing it because it matters to you. Yeah. No,

I appreciate that. And it's definitely and I mentioned it earlier, and when I talk about like the parable, I can't overstate what it was like to be like basically starting a band when you're like an eighth or ninth grade and then you just did that from like the time you were fifteen or sixteen till like thirty five. So sometimes all a hard time communicating with my wife and I go to you understand, I spent most of my life in a van with the same five guys, Like

it really impacted. It took a lot of my time and energy to do that. When that stopped, it was tough because I had this structure. I was used to band practice every night. I was used to doing all these this this everything was kind of went around the music and being in Watershed. Having said that, I think I'm wise enough to know that, you know, there's nothing more pathetic than someone trying to be who they were

when they were twenty five when they're forty five. I mean, so I had to kind of take a step back, look at things fresh and be like, what can I do? Um, you know, my son's now three years old, my wife's working, you know, end up owning this small coffee shop and just being I think, being open to different ideas or whatever, you know, like, how am I going to do a solo group? I'm just gonna do EPs. I can't do a record. And then I was doing websites and I thought, well,

this is silly to do one website by myself. There's a lot of talented people writing great stuff on Facebook. What if they sent it to me at the coffee shop and I'll post it there and it'd be a great way to network and keep myself interested. At at the end of it, I'm just trying to keep myself interested in life because I think that keeps you on it. Like I said, that feeds the good wolf, you know

what I mean. And if you keep around interesting people that you don't that inspire you, and um, you know you don't want to let down. You know, you'll you'll tend to do you'll raise up to their level. And I think I'm always trying to find people like that that inspire me. Um, So yeah, I don't worry about results very much. I mean, I think going back to Watershed, we've had so many close calls somewhere along the way

you just laugh about it. I mean, you just And that's what I try to convince my son or anyone, like you know, if if you know, if you put a good shot up and it goes in, that's great. But if you put a good shot up and it doesn't go in, that's great too. You can't worry about the result, like you just someone you just gotta do it and and sometimes you can't not worry about it. But in general, like you know, well whired, I think

that's one of the interesting things. Is very easy to say, like, you know, you shouldn't care about results and all that, and I believe it to be true. And then I find people who now feel bad about themselves because they can't stop worrying about results. And it's like you're gonna do it, and then you also do your best not to do it right, Like we're humans. I mean, of

course you want to do your podcast. You look at the numbers like I look at it, and you have like a couple of bad days you're like, oh, man, like why am I even doing this? Or you know what I mean, like whatever, But I think overriding that is, you know, if you have a passion about something, you just got to go for it and worry about the

results later. But obviously I spent a lot of time putting out records that we're not well received and that kind of thing where I just said, you know what, that's a good song and if only ten people appreciated here tonight, I know it's a good song. And it's not my role on the planet to just have millions

of people love the stuff I'm doing it. So I just gotta get over it because you don't want I said, you don't want to be the bitter art guy, right, Just get a job at Nationwide with benefits and be better, because there's no point in doing all this stuff if you're looking for positive reinforcement all the time, because you're just not. It's not that's not what it's about. Yeah, And That's the other thing I see in in what

you do and I certainly try and do. And it's a big topic that I talk about, you know, on the show and do many episodes on which is kind of like the middle way, right, And the younger me was like, you're either a rock star or you're nothing. Right, it was all or nothing. And what I love about what you guys do is it's, you know, you get to do a little of both. Right, You've got lives, you do those things, and yet you haven't let that go because it's something you care about and you love

and you do what you can with it. It's kind of truly a middle ground of being sort of between being fully grown up and being a kid. You know, you're you're just keeping things in balance, which is so important. I think just because of our friendship when we were so close that I don't know how we just worked

well together. But I think that's just the maturity. You see a lot of people that put the guitar in the closet, they never touch it again, And I think we had that breakthrough at some point we realized we can determine our own rules. Why I can water ship, we can play or not play, I can do a solo thing, and that's really frees you up when you realize, hey,

I still enjoy it. Maybe we'll only do two shows this year, but maybe it'll be really fun and I still enjoy getting to be a dad, and I still will go to the coffee shop and I still get to do this, and I think that's I don't know where that came from, but it's at some point when you realize you're in control, and you know, maybe a younger person be like, oh, that's so lame that your dad and you don't play much anymore. That it's so shameful that you would just put it all away. I mean,

I never planned on being a parent. It was never I never once in my life thought about being a dad. I've never even had a pet, Like I'm just busy doing that would just to me, that's all just distractions from whatever I think I'm trying to do. But then as you get older and you realize you like this and you like that, you're like, you know, I there's kind of room for everything, and you've got to give yourself a break, and is everything like water ships getting

ready to play some shows. We're gonna play Confest and Columbus, and we're gonna go play Cleveland and Toledo. We haven't played in a while, and are we gonna be as great as we once were? Probably not on that level. It's a little sad because I can look at our old setless mcmahn. We used to just be such an awesome rock and roll machine. We could play three sets, we just But at the same time, you're still playing.

You're older. I'm not Bruce Springsteen like, so I think you have to let yourself off the hook a little bit. It's still good and this is the best we're capable of right now, and it's better nothing. And you know, you're getting older, and I think about that stuff. I lost my mom at a fairly young age, and you're just like you die. So make sure I'm always thinking about you know, time is precious and as you get older, like even there, I don't want to see Tom Petty,

was I gonna go. I'm like, you know what, he's getting older. I'm gonna go see Tom Petty. You know, we're probably both not gonna be around a whole lot longer, and you know, there's just a little more urgent see, so I think that's a big part of being older too, as you know, you can't stare yourself in the mirror and beat up yourself because your wrinkles or your faults. I mean, you're just human, and you know, give yourself,

give yourself a break. Right. It's easy to just not to even try because you can just you know, self at it yourself to just you know, and if you fail, you fail. Like with the coffee shop, there a lot of times where I thought, you know, man, maybe maybe this is gonna work and I'm just gonna go bankrupt. I didn't have any other any other plan. All I've done is played music and like wait tables. And even then I was like, you know what, lots of businesses

go bankrup. Yeah, so you know what's on the end of the world, and you know what I mean, if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out. And yeah. We had a couple episodes ago was Danny Shapiro and

and she was talking. It was in the context of her marriage, but she said, basically, you know, I knew that everything was not okay, but yet at the same time it was also you know, it was okay, and I love like what you said there at the coffee shop and all that is this sort of underline like, yep, lots of bad ship might happen, right, things could go wrong with thousand different ways, and somehow underneath that there's some resilience or some or I think some of it

comes from a recognition that that other stuff is stuff. Yeah, and you know, and I guess at this point I should mention too obviously my wife Aaron. I mean, for anyone, you know, who your partners is really really important and you're and she's been she's a counselor and we kind of did this together. When our son was first born.

I was still trying to do music. We did Fifth of July and it was the record turned out really well, and she was like, you should tour on this record, and I said, I don't think I should, Like this is really if I do what, I'm gonna be gone. And I made it clearer like this is like trying to win the lottery. It's probably not gonna happen, and said, no, you should do it. So we got some financing and we got a van and we went and tour and I said, I gotta do this for eighteen months, no

matter what if I say I'm gonna do it. I gotta do it because if it's gonna happen, it will only happen at the end, and I'm tony, it's probably not gonna happen. But she was talking like, no, you should go for it. Halfway into like eighteen months tour and she's like, I can't do this anymore. You need to stop because your son's here, You're not making any money, and I was like, I can't stop. We agreed to this and it was rough. It was a rough and it took us a while to come back from it.

But that is an example of you know, you're when you're that moment where you're still young enough you think you can kind of do it all, and you maybe you bite off more than you can chow. We tried this, but now I've got to grow up and I've got to figure out a way to be, you know, a good partner and still do my thing. And you know, her credit, she gives me enough latitude to know this is like part of who I am, So you can't just yeah. It's not like I just welcome on day

and said I'm gonna try stand up comedy. You know what, I mean like it's like, this is what it is. But obviously you have to have another partner when you're for at least I shouldn't say you have to. For me, having a strong person that I admire or be around that I don't want to let down pushes me in the right direction. Um, you know, you know between Owen and Aaron and I, so I should obviously. And then she's a counselor so there's a lot of Sometimes I

feel like there's just too much. I say, this isn't fair, Like there's too much communication around here. This is like what your job is, you know what I mean. So like I feel like, you know you can't Yeah, you know what I mean, Like I like can't battle through it, but you know who you And that would be the other going back to like your child and being a dad is who you put in around you. And then I mean the number one rule of life, Mom, show me who your friends are, and I'll show who you are.

So that's what you watch your kid like a hawk. Who's going to be the spouse or other person? And I'm lucky I have a really awesome person that you know, really does a lot for me and supports me and all that. I hope I give that back, but I don't have to tell people out there listening you know you has gone on with the wrong person. You know you'll be in trouble and hurry and like even like Watershed, like we never smoked, were the only band because we

just started so young. I always think about that. It was like we would have fun and we would party, but at the end of the day, we didn't want to let each other down. It was not acceptable to be, you know, a total funk up. That was not you did not mess up the show. That's how a good marriage should be. Relationship. I'm gonna have my fun, but at the end of the day, I don't want to be the one who let the team down. So, you know, and all that comes from, you know, the relationships you

have around you and the people you surround yourself. Because I could be and I know you can. We were corruptible guys. We can get them, you know what I mean back in the day. We can get on the bandwagon pretty good. Oh yeah, and go, you know, get going. So you know, it's you know, you want to have those friends that I think I dated a bartender one time. It was a terrible idea, right, it's just not that's not the person I need. Yep, you know what I mean.

I'll provide this craziness someone else needs to provide like the sanity. Like that's a good mix for me and I know that. Well, speaking of your wife, let's transition to a different song. One of the things I think that you've done as a songwriter, and very few people I think are able to do it, is to write about what it is to be an adult in a

powerful way. Right, It's so easy to move into cheesiness or cliche or there's just not there's not a lot of songwriters I found who are necessarily speaking in as directive terms about what it's like to be the age I am. And so you've got a song called the Words We Say, which is just an amazing song. We'll listen to a little of it here. Everything looks so glad and song new. Now the pain is faded with the memory and the way you used to smile at me,

she'll feeling friesstraighted and it shows how misappinting. And everybody knows these are the words we say when we don't know what to say. These are the words we say when there's nothing left to say? Is the rave you? And this is not only long. You know that line that you know she's feeling frustrated and you're feeling disappointed. I assume that disappointment has something to do with your music career. Oh yeah, it was. I mean it was

right after. That was one of the first things we did when that collision between being a parent and watershed really hit, you know what I mean where I was still committed to being on the road, but we were trying to raise a young son, and we were in a house and we're trying to pay bills and we're being adults. And then Watershed had stopped, so I was trying to feel my way and write some songs. Remember it kind of wrote it over at Mike Landolds. I was really excited and I came home and I like,

played it. It does not feel well. I'm such an idiot that I thought she'd be like proud of me, and she was. She was like so like just taken aback. Every time I hear that song, I think of, like, what's it like to be Aaron? And again, this song is not um. It doesn't call her into question and anyway it's about I mean, the song is, you know, basically about once upon a time we were in love and this was really easy and now it's hard and I still love you, but it's hard and I don't

know how to do it all the time. But I can see why. Yeah, I've done that before, written a song that I thought, well, this person would think, you know, they look at our situation and think, yeah, that's the way it is. It's really you know, you know, never has gone well yeah, I mean that's why, you know, and it's just you know, it just it's um and I was, you know, haven't been a songwriter. You have to be. You have to put it out like anything, it's gotta be true if it's not even worth doing. Uh.

But once again, it's still a pop song. It's not there's only time for one angle. It's not very nuanced. I mean, so of course, if you're writing a song that's gonna be you know, a little more down or something that's you know, it's it's not like and the verse like, oh but by the way, she's you know, she's still beautiful and I love you know, but you did that to some extent. That's the again, the part

of that that is I find so powerful. Is not only is it about how you're stressed when she's around and she you know, how all the things that happened in the marriage, but there's also like the I Love You Part two, which which which adds that. Like it's a very short piece, but it's totally changes for me the tone of the song because it it makes it more um what it's really like. You know, you can paint things is awful, and you can paint things is good really easily, but painting them is both is and

that's the art that I love that manages to do that. Yeah, I appreciate that, and it's you know, it's definitely a

song that it's a special song for me. And I don't know, I to know where where it came from or where it happened or whatever, but uh, you know, as far as writing goes, I know, I try to stay current in the sense that, like I think we always have the same you kind of have the same experiences of emotion, whether you're playing Little league baseball or you're doing this with that, it's kind of the same through life. So you have to kind of jump in

and grab them. And if I think if you stay honest to yourself, you can write a song when you're eighteen and you can play it next to a song you wrote when you're forty five and they'll still sound like the same boys. You're still the same person. Now. I'm not saying I'm I always can do it. I can't. It's hard. I don't write a ton of songs. There's

no time for it. But I think if you find that that essential truth, you know, that's kind of floating around you, you can do a song that feels real in middle age, and you can play it next to a song you wrote when you're young and he's still. Strangely enough, it works. But I think that's part of being removed. Challenging yourself is to write about what you're going through now and not retreat to some cocoon of like where I was and I was thirty two, you know,

or like in I don't think both people. Most musicians do it well. Like It's just that's my opinion, right there. There are some right and and I'm not saying, but a lot of the musicians I find who are older, they have managed to remain writing really great songs, but they're not necessarily they seems like they become less um biographical in some way. Yeah, I mean, I mean, I guess it could happen, I mean to anyone, or I haven't really I'm trying to think who. I don't know.

I don't have really good answer for that. But you know, all I can say from my point of view is, you know, I just you know, I do. I don't think it's a conscious effort. I just think that's just that's how my that's how my process works, like what's going on around me? Now? What can I speak to? UM? And go from there? And having said that was that's a song also that I probably wouldn't have written for

a Watershed record. But once Watershed wasn't playing Joe was doing a book, I kind of freed me up to write about maybe something a little more hyper personal that wouldn't UM, wouldn't you know. I was just, you know, once again, I'm just doing it for myself. It wasn't like there was a record deal and my goll just

work on this song, UM. And that just happened to be the song that came out in that moment trying to think of where we want to go now, I want to talk about one more song, but anything else direction wise you want to go here covering the parenting thing and just all that, and like said, having the

friends around you. I'm thinking that's what really the wolf Like, It's like having reasonable habits, maybe not the best good habits, and having good people around you, and that kind of saves you from going to the bad wolf, because I I feel like I could go over. I never feel like I'm almost like, well, maybe maybe I just it all just falls apart. Yeah, maybe I just start drinking too much and just at some point I just round

the towel. I'll have a few days where I don't feel motivated, and I'm like, well, maybe it's the end. You know, it was a good run. But maybe I'm just maybe I'm just meant to be the guy that sits at a bar down the street and just works at nine to five drop And I find that appealing. I could be a factory worker guy if I could just work nine to five and go to a bar and eat a pizza, not care about my health, and

I could settle into that. Yeah, I think the I think the alcohol is the key part of that, right, Like, I mean, I think about that and I'm like, well, yeah, I guess I could do, you know, Like I have this vague I mean it's I have this idea that at some point, you know, i'll be really old and um, I won't have anything else to do that matters, Like I'll just be like I'm kind of done, right, I

don't I don't want to write a book. I don't want to And I'm like, at that point, I'm gonna get on this whole medical marijuana craze right like I'm gonna. I don't think it's a great way for an addict to be thinking, but but I just sort of put it off, and uh, and I just come back to for myself over and over, like there's things I want to do that matter, and I for myself, I know that those things won't happen If alcohol and drugs are

part of my life, that's it's over. And but then like you you've got to you know, you might be close to the edge, but you've always stayed away, even you've never been completely over the now. I feel like I have like said, like it'll be funny because thereon will be like you know, I don't keep any like liquor at home or anything because I like, I probably drink it. Like, why do you have like I don't

want it around? You know, beer, Why don't you buy if you always get just one of your beers, why don't you buy like twelve because I drink, I drink all twelve, Like I'm aware of right now where everything like all that is. So that's where when I think about being a father to own, it's like, you know, I feel fairly confident in my age, and if I was going to go off the wheel, it was just gonna go off the tracks. What have happened? You know?

But you know, you never know, you never know. But that's you know, that's where you know, I want to be like you know, don't you can be better than me. Don't be like me. I've got these vices. You know, you can, you know, probably do better than that. But at the same time, a lot of people that are creative, especially growing up, they kind of use alcohol or something to kind of spur that on. And for whatever reason,

I've never been that guy. Like I'm more sober when I have to play a gig, and a lot of musicians aren't they party. I'm not. I like I like, yeah, I like to party when I'm not doing anything, and that's always been I find it not fun to have to work or create. I've never been one of those brilliant people that you know, can drink and come up with some amazing song. For me, it's always been very

sober kind of work, like when I especially getting older now. Um. I remember we played a show last year and I think Owen came as Watershed and I was just conscious of, like, you know, we're a rock band and we have beers on stage and stuff to some degree, but I remember thinking, like, I'm not gonna have a beer. I don't want him to see me with a beer in my hand playing music.

He sees me with a beer in my hand throwing baseballs or watching a game, but when I'm playing music, I want I don't want him to have this association and I don't need it. I don't need to have beer when I'm playing. Yeah, it is, I like it sometimes, but I don't need it. It can be such a strong association that, like I think for people who give up the alcohol and drugs, a lot of times the music goes to or has to go um, which I

don't think it's true. It didn't happen for me that way. Um, you know, I was probably more active musically after I got sober and with a band. But it was hard because I had never really done that sort of stuff in in a normal I didn't do anything in a normal stage, so I suppose everything was hard. But there is that there is that association, and I'm glad I was able to untangle it early because, you know, one of the things I've thought about more and more lately.

It's just on my mind a lot of like what a gift it is to have something like music that I love to do. I have no aspiration musically at this point, like there's just nothing really there. It's mostly like I just really love doing it. And I'm so glad that I have that though, because and not just something I love doing something I love listening to, Like having a thing in my life that I love that much.

It's such a gift. It's your best friend. Like people that aren't there, like you know, like like my my wife Aaron, she know, she know, she's obviously she just like I have to have music on all the time. I'm always like musically thinking, I always always in the background. He's gotta put on music if we're gonna throw baseball's like if there if like I'm aware if there's no music. If I'm at the coffee shop but it's silent for a minute, my brain is like even I'm not paying attention,

it's like, where's the music? Right? So it always has to be there. And it is something I don't know how it gets into your blood or whatever it is, but yeah, it's it's you know, it's my favorite thing, you know, Like I love a lot of things, but crank cup of whatever, Springsteen replacements or whatever. And I I mean like and I just when there's moments we were like this is the best, you know, and it's and I think also it appeals to me because it's

so imperfect, Like I was never good at math. Like, you know, the nice thing about music and a specifically rock and roll is just something you know, the sum is greater than the parts a lot, and it gives you a break, like like Joe writing a novel, Like there's no way around writing a novel, Like you've got to put all those words together into a big, long book.

I would never be able to do that, but you can, you know, bang out a rock song with a couple of cool chords and help maybe just repeat the first verse the third time, you know, and it's still good. And I like that. It's a very forgiving in that way. It is a very forgiving medium. It may be dead because that's the only but now my son's starting to listen to rap, so we're going through the whole. I've

already I've already been through all that. My kids are incredibly eclectic, Like there's an eclecticism in their music taste that there was not when I was young. Yeah, and I think that's just maybe across the board in general. But they're like, you know, rap and rock, and I mean they're just kind of all over the place. Yeah, you know, my friend said, because Owen has always been a we love music, so we've seen the stones and I'm always playing music. He's always been a rock guy.

And it was like, yeah, he's gonna get into wraps in middle school. And the other day, after baseball he got baseball practice, he got in the car with a couple of buddies. All a sudden he put on like Power one oh seven, Like I don't even know what that station is. No one was very aware. And then two weekends ago. I was driving the van for a baseball tournament and I was driving the guys and they wanted to put on stuff and I'm like, okay, put on whatever you want. I'm just the driver. I might

your dad. And of course it was just like super offensive f moms and mombs and stuff. And I want because I wanted have been like he wants to go see Kendrick Lamar, and he had. He was very thoughtful. He said, no, this guy's legit, because I just wanted him to be able to tell the difference between there's a big difference between bon Jovi and Bruce Springsteen, just like I assumed there's a big difference between Kendrick Lamar and whoever the other dude is. Whoever else is it there?

So he made a very passionate plea and I'm like, okay, you know, sure you can. You know my parents didn't want me. I didn't want to see Iron Maiden when I was a kid. I want to go. You know, I can't be the dad that like down plays a whole form of music. That's right, Hey, find your own stuff, man,

And uh, you know, so we're it's funny. We're just moving into that territory where you know, and I'm curious to like play me the good stuff, Like I want to know what's going what's going on out there because I don't, and you know you don't want to, you know, especially musician Dad. You can't be the one who's like, oh, you know, even when I find it completely offensive. Yeah, I'm sure you know, my parents weren't loving Ozzy Osborne come and blaring out of my room, you know what

I mean. So that's just that's just the way it goes. Yeah, I've had to just let that, let that be also, and I've learned to like find the stuff that I like. Like some of it. I'm like, wow, this is legitimately like art, like I love it. Um. So yeah, well we are near the end of our time here, so um we're gonna fade this one out a little bit differently than normal. We're going to fade out with a song of yours called try a Little Faith, which is was on your Christmas record. But is it really a

Christmas song? No? No, you know it's and uh you know listen as will hear. But I really like it because it it again is sort of that ambiguous middle ground right where you're saying, like, you know, for a lot of us, we don't really believe in God in the traditional sense. You know, you've got it. We know too much, right, and yet you know, try a little faith. What could it hurt? Which I just I love that

that idea. Anything you want to say about it before we fade out to it, Well, I appreciate you bringing I'm surprised you brought it up. And it's funny because I know Aaron said, like, I don't really understand that chorus. She'll say to me, and I'm like, well, it makes sense to me, like in my head, like, yeah, I don't really the traditional things. I'm not sure I believe in all that stuff. But you know, it's almost like another parenting thing, do you know, try try a little faith.

You know, it can't can't hurt, because I think there is I have faith. I don't know exactly what it is, but I have no doubt have it. I know. So it's hard to uh but um, yeah, I mean I guess once again with the song, I guess the song kind of says it. But yeah, you know, like I said, it can't it can't hurt, you know, try it out and see where it takes you. But I'm not gonna sit here and lecture about specifics and that. Yeah, and I'm sure you know that's another part of parenting and

whole spiritual world. And you know, I was brought up Catholic and I was you know, I went to church in CCD every single week and all that stuff. And I'm glad i went I'm not a Catholic. Now, that's not my thing. I've readives at are but I think you know, with Owen, we've wrestled with that as like, you know, at least you want to have some exposure to something spiritual so when you get older you can

make a decision about it. You have something to reject, yeah, yeah, whatever it is, you know, but but on your own because it is a big part whether you like it or not, it's a big part of the world, and a lot of people they do care greatly about it. So you should have some understanding of it. And but that really doesn't anything to do with the song. You can just play the song, all right, Thanks, Thanks Hurt.

Here's a song for the rest stop us. We cannot pretend because we know too much about where we're going, about where we've been Every second is a kif. Don't you wasted? We're all on the same in the air, how the dress you can see that? I've never believe there's only one way to get in to heaven, But you can't see the air yet. Song, how we can breathe, dry thettle fade down me? What could it if what you just heard it was helpful to you. Please consider

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