Claire Hoffman

hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Claire Hoffman, who works as a magazine writer living in Los Angeles. Claire rights for national magazines covering culture, religion, celebrity, business,

and whatever else seems interesting. She is a former staff reporter for the Los Angeles Times and a freelance reporter for the New York Times. Claire has a master's degree in religion from the University of Chicago and a master's degree in journalism from Columbia University. She serves on the board of her family foundation, the Goldhurst Foundation, as well as the Columbia Journalism School. Claire is a native Iowan and has been meditating since she was three years old.

Her new book has called Greetings from Utopia Park, Surviving a Transcendent Childhood. If you value the content we put out each week, then we need your help. As the show has grown, so have our expenses and time commitment. Go to one you feed net slash Support and make a monthly donation. Our goal is to get to five of our listeners supporting the show. Please be part of the five percent that make a contribution and allow us to keep putting out these interviews and ideas. We really

need your help to make the show sustainable and long lasting. Again, that's one you feed dot net slash Support. Thank you in advance for your help. And here's the interview with Claire Hoffman. Hi, Claire, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for having me. I'm happy to talk with you again. As we were talking about earlier. We had you on before and we lost the interview. We didn't misplace it, we lost the hard drive that it was on, which

was a shame because it was a great interview. But I'm happy because I get to talk to you again, So thank you for agreeing to come back on Delight. Well let's start, like we always do, with the parable. So there is a grandfather who's talking to his grandson. He says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed, hatred,

and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks about it for a second, and he looks up at his grandfather and he says, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. I think it's this idea of working within yourself to

create happiness and not looking outside. Um. I think it's it's this sort of powerful idea that you can kind of create your own reality to some degree with what you put your attention on and I mean, of course, there's a million extenuating factors. Uh. I think that the way that we choose to look at the world and the decisions we make about that really affect our happiness and sort of if if we lead a valuable life. Yeah,

I agree. I think at the most basic level, it's really about where are we putting attention and being able to put attention on certain things. One way to get better at that is to is to meditate. And you've got quite a history there. Um. Your book is called Greetens from Utopia Park, Surviving a Transcendent Childhood, where you essentially grew up within the heart of the at that time burgeoning TM community. Do you want to tell us a little bit about those early years in your life? Sure? Yeah.

My family moved in to a little town in Iowa, and we've been living on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, and it was my mom and my brother and I My dad had kind of taken off in the dark of night, if you will, and so my mom moved us to Iowa, which had become the sort of global headquarters for the transcendental meditation movement, and tim was something that she had gotten involved in when she was in college and really fallen in love with and she had

gone to courses in Europe with the Guru Marishima Hashiogi, and he, you know, in the seventies, sixties and seventies and onward, started this kind of global movement of followers who believed, like he did, that his special trademark form of meditation in montre based meditation would create world peace and change the world. So he, in the early seventies bought this little bankrupt university in this tiny rural town in Iowa, and he asked all his followers to come

there and to to meditate together. And so are with my dad having just taken off and being broke and living in Manhattan, my mom decided to move us there. And you know, initially in terms of what my childhood was like, I mean, it was just complicated, like everybody's childhood. But you know, it was amazing to be a part of this kind of utopian movement and this arrival of people who felt like we were on the brink of you know, the dawn of the Age of Enlightenment was

what they called it. And everything kind of revolved around meditation. So once I was at the private school, Murray She's private school for kids, which was called the Murray Shi School of the Age of Enlightenment. You know, we started us the first thing in the morning with meditation, and then we talked about his sort of philosophy of living, and everything kind of was referring back to meditation and mury She's idea of the unified field, that the sort

of source of all knowledge. And you know, in the beginning of the end of the day, my mom meditated, you know, before she took me to school for two hours and after school for two hours. So everything in our life kind of revolved around meditating, and so you grew up in that community and ultimately became a little bit would disillusion to be the right word. Yeah, I think that's the I think that's a great word, you know. I mean there were a bunch of factors that sort

of led to that disillusionment. You know, my father came back into my life when I was around twelve years old, and he kind of brought this outside perspective, and at that moment he came back, it was also this moment in the sort of history of the TM movement where things had gotten kind of extreme in my opinion. So you know, Maury she never lived in Iowa, and he communicated with us through telecasts. So we would go to

the Dome buildings. These are these giant golden dome shape buildings where the people meditated together, and he would sort of beam in from India or Europe wherever he was and kind of offer instruction on how to live. And he was extremely ambitious. He had like incredible vision for the world and how he wanted to shape it according to his vision. And you know, those were sort of

marching orders. And over the years in Iowa, it was like we were sort of the constant recipient of these incoming ideas and marching orders, and so life became very regimented, you know, I mean the idea of what you would eat and how you would drink, and the clothes you would wear, and the kind of architecture that you were supposed to build. Everything kind of became Murray Shi's vision.

And you know, at that point in the late eighties and early nineties, when I was a young teenager, I just I started to kind of see the hypocrisy of it. You know, there was a real emphasis on fundraising for that vision, and you know. I mean, we were broke, were living in Utopia Park, which was the name of the meditator only trailer park that we lived in. It's not a phrase you hear often, meditator trailer park. Yeah, exactly, a meditator only, though you hear a lot in hairfield.

But you know, it just became obvious to me, or it felt obvious to me that you know, my mom was focused so much on sort of achieving higher states of consciousness and enlightenment, but she was like being kind of worked to death, you know, I mean she was she was juggling three jobs in order to pay the tuition of the private school and the fees for the dome, and you know, struggling to be a little four things like special medicine that you know, I was going to

raise your consciousness. So I felt like we were very much priced out of the enlightened vision that he was offering. And you know, I mean, as a thirteen year old, like you know, do you love finding hypocrisy? So I was. I was on it. And so so you grew up and then you you left there at some point in your teenage years, right. I left when I was seventeen, and I went away. I finished my last year of high school with my father in Los Angeles, and then I went to college. And you know, I've I've never

moved back. I've gone back to visit quite a bit. But for a long time in my twenties, I felt, you know, really cynical about the movement and about Marishi, and you know, really concerned about my mom's life. They're, um, you know, worried about her being victimized in some way, mostly economically, I should say, like the economic issues. You know,

that made a lot of sense. And when I would tell people about where I grew up, you know, everyone going to kind of roll their eyes and say, like, oh, right, that's the way it always goes. That's the path tauran right, like inspirational guru, exciting, utopian you for a time and then restrictions and collapse. But you know, I mean after I had my first daughter, I kind of I did, you know, like a spiritual version of a double take if you will, Um, yeah, I mean I'm trying that

one out on you. Yeah yeah. And I kind of felt like, well, wait a second, I've tossed off all these ideas and values that I grew up with and held sacred for so long. And now I have a kid, and I'm a parent, and I have I had a great life, or I have a great life, but there was this sort of feeling of shallowness a little bit, and I really longed and missed the meaning that I'd grown up with and the sense of purpose and the sense of value and the sense of magic, you know.

I mean, we really felt like we were changing the world. And that's a it's a great feeling. And so I went back when I was I went back about five years ago and did a month long meditation course there and it kind of forced me to complicate my vision, you know, and kind of moved past the cynicism that I had arrived at at age thirteen and have a muddier version of what had happened and what the meaning and what the value of it was and of what

it continues to be. Yeah, so you're describing, basically, you have a successful life, you have a child, everything looks good, and yet you're feeling that entirely common in modern sort of emptiness. Yes, and so you went back to uh, sort of your childhood and where all this was, and and that's the book is really you're telling your childhood. You're talking about you going back there, what that experience is like. Wonderful book. I would highly recommend anybody, uh

to get it. I enjoyed reading it and and through the book. You know, I think that the main theme that sort of stood out to me was really this idea of rationality versus belief. Yeah, it's like my favorite topic. So I love yes, and really the tension between those and and the thing that I think is interesting is

in the book and the way you put it. I kind of walked away with a feeling that said, those are both tools and their appropriate tools in certain circumstances, Like rationality is not the tool to use for everything, nor is belief. And so let's let's talk a little bit about that. You have a line where you're talking about your mother and you say, you know, you finally realized, you know, she used to smile like she knew something that you didn't, and you said she'd known that things

were so much more beautiful and strange than logic allowed. Yeah, I mean I think that this is like was sort of the big reveal for me and writing the book that I didn't know I was going to figure out in writing it, which is that, you know, I struggle with these different parts of myself, as as I imagine

many people do. Where by the time I got to the place where I was going to go back there and take this month long meditation course, I was so frustrated with the voice in my head, the sort of cynical voice that was constantly kind of negative and taking things apart, you know. I mean I worked professionally as a journalist, and that is like the go to position usually is like what's what's that person up to? Like

what's the deal? And I just was exhausted with that perspective, you know, and I felt like it had really kind of shut down some other part of me. But before I moved to belief, I will say that in writing the book and seeing as a kid, how that doubt and that rationality kind of saved me at the same time,

like it pulled me out. It kept me from being sort of swept under by the intensity of the belief and you know, kind of the tragedy of being in a community that was so at once spiritually and economically focused, and it sort of allowed me some distance in space, you know, and moved me out And so as much as I was frustrated by it, in going back and revisiting my childhood, I saw how that rationality and that cynicism and that doubt really kind of rescued me in

so many ways. Now, on the other hand, you know, when I went back for this meditation course, as I said, was so frustrated with that feeling of like I had to take everything apart. And you know that line that you read is, you know, after I have this kind of intense experience in meditation, um where I levitated, which we can talk about, um uh, I never know when

when to like pop that one out. Yeah. Um. So you know, Maury she his advanced form of meditation, his t m CD program, uh is supposed to kind of give you these superpowers, including the ability to levitate. And so you know, as I said, so much of life and Fearful revolved around meditation, but more specifically it revolved

around flying. And so you know, as an adult going back and you know, paying thousands of dollars and signing up for this course and you know, leaving my one year old for for you know, two or three weeks at a time to go meditate, I felt this immense pressure to experience um and be open to this I don't know, this power or whatever you want to call it.

And I found myself in the line that you're reading is sort of this moment while I was in the room, you know, being initiated and given this sort of new mantra or sutra, I felt like I needed to that cynical doubting mind to be quiet in order to be swept into some other space. Yeah. I think that is the challenge of I think the rational mind. And obviously

it has tremendous value. It's created civilization, and you know, it keeps a lot of us out of a lot of trouble, and yet it can be a harsh taskmaster in that it is you know, most states have expanded consciousness, and even a lot of states of happiness and ecstasy are kind of happened when that part of the brain sort of gives itself a rest right. I mean, if you think about an ecstasy and happiness and joy, I'm

not sure that those are actually evolutionary traits. You know, Like the thing that it helps you survive is this questioning and wondering and looking ahead and and you know, apprehension. But those are all kind of antithetical to happiness. So you know, as you said, sort of this modern condition of trying to balance out those two because you know, I mean, we have lives now, some of us, where we have the space and the ability to pursue happiness,

you know, our own happiness. And I felt like an extra weight of that, I would say, more than the average bear. But given the I grew up with, like this sort of adage that we should all be in twenty four our bliss and so you know, I was like, wait, like not even an hour of bliss. Um. It's a tricky one though, because I think, on one hand, so rendering to the mystical or the cosmic um is what

allows you to have these really profound experiences. I mean, I think love is you know, the sort of universal example of that right where you can find a fault in anybody, but when you meet somebody and fall in love, they're perfect. You know. Is that rational? It's not rational, but it's it's what you feel, and it is the sort of suspension of the doubt and the kind of the logical part of your mind. But what you get in return is so incredible. And yet you know, I

think there's a lot of danger to it too. I mean that's part of why I wrote the book, is that I think surrendering your power, or trying to find the answer to life, or you know, following somebody and kind of living according to their vision, these are dangerous things to do. Hey, everybody, it's Eric from the one you feed. Happy holidays to you all. I know that the holidays can be a challenging time for some people.

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And here's the rest of the interview with Claire. You got to witness this flying in your childhood, correct, and maybe you can describe what that felt like to you when you saw that. From the time we moved to Fairfield, Iowa, everything was about levitating, and you know, my mom desperately wanted to take the flying course and a benefactor came forward and did it, and then you know, flying was this sort of mysterious, amazing thing that adults were always

sort of talking about. But you know, it was also the thing that took my mom away from me for four hours a day, you know, and she was being working mother, so it really chipped into our time. So it had this just enormous reputation. And I think, you know, being a kid, my vision of what flying was it's probably you know, like what most of are you flying? You are off the ground for a period of time,

moving around exactly. And Murray, she had said, you know, you have to keep it secret, no one can see it. And then there was this point in the mid eighties where he just kind of changed his mind, I guess, and decided to make it public. And so initially, you know, in Fairfield, the kids from the Murray she School got brought over to the dome and we got to watch the flying. And it was a really strange experience because you know, it's sort of all this pomp and circumstance

around it and all of us sitting there. It's very hushed, and you know, they have these three guys lined up, um, and they have them lined up like it's going to be a race, which didn't seem to like, I don't know why, really into setting it up like a race, which is not how people like, you know, they they do it on a daily basis. This was just like

the performative flying, I guess. And yeah, if you know, they started kind of frog hopping bouncing on the phone, and I felt kind of disappointed, and I felt really embarrassed, um and confused, and you know, I mean I think lately, uh, there's a lot of people in this country who have experienced what it's like to have something really strange happened, and I'm as quickly as possible, you normalize it, and I, you know, it's a familiar feeling to me. Um, and

I did that there. You know, I was I was young. I think I was ten, and so I wasn't ready to kind of have my whole world fall apart. I wasn't ready to ask big questions. But it felt very weird. And then I just tried to like sort of not think about it and make it okay for a while. And so it looked to you, like, what was your feeling that it was sort of a fraudulent thing that they were. I mean, I think you were expecting people to be flying and they were really kind of bouncing

on the cushion. Yeah, they were. I mean they start sitting lotus or Indian style and sort of hopping on their butts. It was very human and like bodily and awkwards, you know. I mean, it would be like sort of seeing somebody do a terrible dance on the dance floor, except that you're expecting something spectacular. Yes, I was expecting something spectacular. And then there was sort of the modified explanation given It's like, Okay, you know, people aren't levitating,

they haven't reached high enough states of consciousness. But if they keep flying, then they're gonna then they're gonna be able to levitate someday. But as far as I know, no one has levitated to my knowledge. And so you went back and took the flying course. I don't know why. Almost every time I say that, it makes me want to laugh or giggle a little bit because it just sounds so ridiculous. Try try growing up for twenty years with everyone being like, Oh, I have to go to

the dome to fly, but then I'll be back. I mean, it's flying. Was like the sort of number three verbs after like sleeping and eating, right right, Yeah, I guess just because it's such a crazy thing to be able to do, that's why you have to be very spiritually advanced to pull it off. Must be the lure of it, because well, I guess flying would be kind of cool. It's actually the last one in a group of like sixteen,

and the one that actually physically manifests. But there's other sutra as you're saying before, invoking all sorts of awesome powers, and I think it's, um, yeah, people wanted to be superhuman. I want to come back to and talk about your experience during and after the class, But we just kind

of wandered into another of the key areas. I think that really resonated to me throughout the book, and it was really this desire too, like you said, to be more than human, to escape being human, to be above that in some way. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if it perfectly parallels the belief and rationality tension, but

I think there is this tension. I saw it in my own life and my family and in my community between the sort of ate of being human and being flawed, um, you know, and it's for me, you know, I saw that with my father's family, you know, had a lot of alcoholics and suicides and this sort of vicious circle

of vice and self loathing that that would happen. And you know, for both my parents, they were trying to kind of move away from that family history with meditation, and you know, the pendulum swing in the other direction is this kind of superhuman or divine or godly state of existence or enlightenment, you know, I mean that's what we were what we called it, that's what we were chasing.

And you know, so I saw growing up this kind of swing between you know what we were which was not perfect, whether it was poor or not successful, you know, or whatever the qualities were that made you not enlightened. Those are both economics for some reason, but that was what those are our problems. But you know other people how to others or to addiction or whatever they were, and or you know, this this desire to be you know, divine and basically like Marishi, and Marishi for us was

this kind of perfect human being. He embodied um all these you know, pure qualities of of the universe, and you know he was he was said to be enlightened. And you know, I think many of the adults of the community were kind of striving to be like that. So that's striving at once this great thing in that. You know. I think it's important to want to improve and to change yourself, and at the same time it

can kind of lead you to unrealistic places. That is one of the questions that sits at the heart of the show, I think, is how do you strive to be better and to improve and accept yourself and your life as it is, Because it seems like both those things need to be present, and yet they sometimes feel like they're pulling in opposite directions. Yeah, I mean, I

want to know, what, how do you resolve that tension? Well, I don't know that I always do, and I think maybe part of it is just recognizing that that tension is there and that it's okay that it's there is probably a big part of it. And I think that being very comfortable with paradox in ambiguity, and you say it somewhere in the book too, that there's just aren't

easy answers to these questions. And when you end up in a situation that is sort of you know, or is cult like like you're in, it's and we see it in all around, in all aspects of life. I think this desire for there to be an easy answer because being human is hard, and it's difficult, and it's scary and it's sometimes wonderful. And but if you look at so many of the things throughout history and in our culture, they are some variation on I don't want

to be human. I want to look better than human, right, I want to you know, our our cultures focus on on looks and not getting old, and so it reflects in that way. And and all types of addictions and and drugs are some like you don't feel you feel above that for a period of time, and and and so much of the spiritual quest can can turn into that.

And I think the so for me, I think finding the the tension between those, or resolving the tension is like I said, I don't know that it resolves, but I think that more and more over the last couple of years, I've thought about that the Buddha's greatest teaching to me might have been the middle way, that that it's okay that there there is gonna be these being pulled different ways, and I can sort of sit in the middle of that. And is if I'm doing some

version of both those things. If I'm all the way over on I've got to be better, gott to make life better, I'll be happy when this happens, that's no good. And if I'm all the way over on the I want to be happy all the time and enjoy my life. I mean that led me to heroin addiction, because that's kind of what that was, right, And so for me, it's where is it in the middle of those two things. How can I at least if not embrace them both at the same time, bounce back and forth between them

in a in a smaller sort of arc. Yeah. I mean, I think that's the interesting thing about like like about a meditation community is because I think that people imagine um and there were aspects of this that it's a you know, sort of chilled out, blissful community of kind of acceptance, right. I mean, that's sort of how we imagine meditation. And yet like the meditation became this vehicle in itself for for changing ourselves and and it went

to this extreme. And I think that I do see so many kids who come out of that community who are either really successful or who struggle with addiction and oppression. And I think that there was this idea that you should be ideal and and so it's this extreme of what we I think every person grows up with, depending on the culture. But you know, I mean literally that we got ideal student awards who best embodied these these qualities. And I think that you could see that as a

beautiful thing. And there's a part of it that it is and um and it's you don't not want to do that. But at the same time, this idea that we are not okay the way we are is it is a dangerous one. Probably the beginning of my level take from the disillusionment was like in my twenties kind of realizing like, wow, my mom didn't just sit through like her twenties and you know, party with her friends and watch TV. She moved to this tiny town and

believed in something and that's pretty incredible. You know, It's it's more than I was doing. Um, it's a big decision. It's a hard decision, and it's a strong decision to make. And there's part of that that's really impressive to me, like that that that reaching is really beautiful and aspirational. Um. But then I also saw the way that it kind

of trapped her. You say, I've come to believe that part of being who I am is being uncomfortable, right, I think you know I've tried, I mean what you said, this sort of middle way idea, those moments where I feel uncomfortable or I feel that kind of pull away from being present, if you will. So you know, perfect example would be, you know, hanging out with my adorable four year old daughter is just like largely a bucket

of joy except for when she's not. But you know, I mean just playing with her and then kind of getting bored or distracted, you know, or starting to think about my to do list, you know, my next thing to do. If I take that sort of micro slice, you know, sort of being in the moment and being joyful and and not having a thought in the world, and then you know, the thoughts are coming up and they're distracting, and they can lead to anxiety and these

other feelings. And yet at the same time, they do serve a purpose, like they push me forward, they lead to change in my life, they make me a better person, and so I try to just kind of not get caught up in the actual feeling of the distraction that kind of witnesses. It's a really garbled answer, but I think I'm trying to just sort of experience that or witness that that tension instead of, you know, struggling with it. You have a paragraph in the book that is beautiful

that speaks to this incredibly well. So I'm just gonna read this because I thought that it was a summation of a lot of what we've talked about. You say, So here, I sit as anxious as anyone I know. I meditated this morning, and for the first few minutes I felt jittery and distracted thinking about the things I needed to do. And then somewhere along the line, I checked out. My brain stopped, and twenty minutes later I

blinked open my eyes and felt pretty good. I heard my new baby daughter, Cooin in her crib, and I went to pick her up. Her whole body quivered with excitement, and she flapped her arms when she saw me, shrieking with joy in her dark bedroom. The sound machine plane soft waves. I pressed my face against hers and she gave me a huge, octopus like kiss. This is divine,

I thought, this is happiness. And then the phone rang and the dog started barking, and I laid Vivian down to change your diaper and knocked over a bottle of milk on the floor. God damn it, I muttered. The dogs kept barking, Vivian started crying. Things had turned and the moment was over. Happiness was a ghost to Chase.

And I love that beyond the fact that it's just beautifully written, because I think it describes what it's like so much to be to be a person, and I think just accepting it that's what it's like to be a person makes it so much better because you were feeling happy, you had this divine moment, and then the next thing, something bad happens, and then something good happens,

and we just bounce around. And I just believe some of that is natural, and certainly we can train and to take to do less of that, but I think so much of our pain sometimes comes from that second arrow,

that telling ourselves we shouldn't be this way. I have to say, there's a part of me that is enough of a meditator that I see a parallel there, you know, where it's like when you're meditating, if you become focused on just holding onto the mantra or focused on trying to clear your mind of thoughts or distractions, you're going to have a bad meditation. You're going to feel frustrated

because your brain just does it. It's natural. So, you know, a big part of my sort of evolution as a meditator has just been the ease of letting things come and go and really having no feeling about it. And I say that like, I learned to meditate when I was three, and I probably have only felt that in the last seven years or so. So it's it's taken me a long time. To get up there, even though I could recite to you the you know, initiation ceremony where they tell you that it's taken me a long

time to sort of experience that acceptance and not. You know, as soon as you start getting in there and judging things, are assessing it or labeling it, you know, you've popped yourself out. And and that's that's hard. And I think it's the same thing with happiness. Like even when you read that that passage to me, and I read me like swearing and yelling at the dogs and the baby crying, I immediately feel some like judgment about myself about that, you know, Like I'm like, oh god, you know, it's

I hate that. I'm like that. I hate that I can get piste off reallyfully, you know. And I didn't like it about my parents, you know, they were the same way. I didn't like it about them. And yet I think it's just the way I'm wired, you know now, And I don't know, I don't know that I can change it. So the best I can do is kind

of be aware of it and move through it. Yeah, that's where I'm a Yeah, I have these moments where I generally tend to believe that, like, it's best to try and be the best person you can and also accept kind of who you are and how you're wired. And this is this is the reasonable level of happiness or contentment to expect. So a lot of me feels that way, And then I have these moments where I feel sort of that pull towards like, oh, you know,

non duality, feeling oneness with the world. Like, am I selling myself short with saying that this is kind of the way it is? But when I look at the human condition and I look at the spiritual teachers that I respect, they're all pretty clear on like, yes, this stuff helps. There are some beautiful moments and a lot of the time you're a human and that's the way it is. And and so that gives me a lot

of comfort. Yeah, I mean I think, you know, non duality means like means that I get to be both an asshole and not an asshole, right, I mean I'm not quite sure that's the teaching I feel like, but you know, I mean, who said that being enlightened was supposed to be just like this ethic like you know, a happy stay Like who says that being enlightened doesn't mean that you get to be I mean, I don't know why I'm even saying this, because I do not aspire to be enlightened at all. I just just sort

of aspire for some mid level of happiness in my life. Um. But you know, I think there is you know, I just don't understand who got to decide, you know, what it was all supposed to look like. You know what being a perfect person or a contented person or enlightened person, what that was supposed to look like. Why can't it be me swearing at my kids and my dog? Yep?

I think it might be able to. I think that the interesting thing, you know, most of my spiritual training such that I have has been in the Buddhist tradition. And and I think there's that idea on one hand of perfect contentment. Nothing ruffles me, you know, I'm just but I don't think that's really what is being taught. Um. I think that's a superficial interpretation of it. Um. And I think that what's being what's being taught is to be present to what is, even when that might be

potentially painful. And I, you know, the thing that I mostly get out of a lot of that stuff is to not make things worse like that, life presents a certain amount of uh suffering and pain or I'm gonna use the word pain. Life presents a certain amount of pain, whether that be physical pain, people you love leaving or dying, whether that be the pain is your own mood or your crappy digestive system or whatever it is. And that's the reality. And how do I just not make that worse?

Because I've got a long resume of really making things worse. Yeah, I mean that's sort of the question, right, I mean, I do think I think that from what I've seen, first of all, like the wanting things to be perfect and wanting to be this sort of unflappable being. I was reading a community where that was expected of people, and I think it created an enormous amount of pressure. And you know, pressure has to be released in different ways. So it led to people having affairs or you know,

sort of having unhappiness or mental illness. I mean, it led to all sorts of things. Starting podcasts worst of all, starting podcasts m most dangerous. Yeah. I mean sure, lots of totally happy people, but the people who put that pressure on themselves, I did not see those being the happy people, you know, I think the as are the people who it actually creates a lot of self loathing and a desire for escape because you can't you can't be yourself right, You're just sort of faking it because

nobody is truly like that, you know. And and we all have different, complicated personalities, you know. And I think the other thing on top of that that I've seen with people I love who have struggled with addiction, is that almost that pressure or that sense of pride that really makes things worse. You know. It makes it harder to ask for help. It's harder to admit that you have a problem. You know, it's harder, and it feels like it's a lot of the desire to escape comes

from a lack of self acceptance. I mean, it sounds like such a truism, but you know, it's an unrealistic expectation of who you should be. And in the disappointment, you know, wanting to escape, Well, that's the tragic spiral of add You feel bad, so you take a drug, which makes you do things that you don't feel good, So you feel worse than you did before, which means you have to take a drug to I mean, it's just that that's the that's the death spire, it's the

death probably. I think there's even know even you see new age people, I think like self help, Like I see elements of that in all of those things, you know, like dieting, all of it. It's you know, it's all about sort of self recrimination and then you know crazy restrictions and then you know sort of reacting against that, and it's crazy. It sucks being a person, definitely, That's what I would say about I mean, it's also amazing

and incredible, but it's hard. Yeah, most of the changes I've made in my life have come out of a positive place and not out of a negative place. You know, self recrimination seems to only work as a motivator for a short period of time, very short. So we've not solved anything here, but um, which is what I expected.

I I mean, I loved your book. It was very well written, and again I think that it it gets to some of these fundamental paradoxes that sit in in the middle of our lives in a really great way. And I think that's why I liked reading the book and why I have enjoyed talking to you yet again for a very long time. Um about this So I think that's where we're going to wrap it up. But um,

you know, thanks again. Really I did enjoy it both last time and this time, and uh, I think there's a lot to talk about here, Eric, thank you so much. I've really I feel like we're friends now. Yes, I agree, podcast friends, I've lured you into this dark world. I really enjoyed it. Thank you, all right, take care to alright, Okay bye. You can learn more about Claire Hoffman and this podcast at one you Feed dot net slash Claire.

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