Chris Grosso - The Indie Spiritualist

our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good Wolfe thanks

for joining us. Our guest today is Chris Grosso, a public speaker, freelance writer, recovering addict, and best selling author of Indie Spiritualist, a nobleshit exploration of spirituality. Chris is also a touring musician and is currently working on a second book, doing two thousand fifteen. Here's the interview. Hi, Chris, welcome to the show. Hey, thanks so much for having me on. It's it's a pleasure. Yeah, it's great to

get you on here. We uh we tried this a couple of weeks ago and had maybe our only technical difficulty in about forty interviews. So you uh, you drew the short straw there, but we we got through it, we did, and it's it's great to connect a few weeks later. So again, very happy to be here with you. So our podcast is based on the Terrible of Two Wolves, where there's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson and he says, in life, there's two wolves inside of us.

One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he thinks and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you. Woh, well, it's a it's a great parable Um. You know, the first thing that

comes to mind is I resonate with both wolves. You know, um, the majority not the majority, but a better part of my life is spent or was spent lost in active drug and alcohol addiction. So I was certainly feeding that wolf, you know, the one of fear, not so much the hatred or greed aspect, but definitely the fear. Um. So you know that that was that was the wolf that

that resonated for me. The thing was that I also had periods of sobriety um In in that time it was probably about maybe twelve or more years that I was really a fall on addict. But the thing was during that time I would get these periody periods of sobriety, which were often a year, maybe even a little more. And during that time I was feeding the other wolf, you know, the good wolf and the one that was healthier in nature. Um, but feeding it, I guess metaphorically

kind of processed foods rather than organic. And so you you, as you said, spent a lot of your life and active addiction, you clearly had an interest in spiritual things throughout that period. You got sober, and then you started your website called The Indie Spiritualist, which then has become a book. What is an Indie Spiritualist for our listeners? Okay,

so Indie spiritualism it ended up. You know a lot of people actually look at me and they see a heavily tattooed person with big holes in their ears, and they often associate that with with the indie spiritual vibe. I guess you could say, but that really, for me has nothing to do with it. Um. It really is more about people that are looking into their hearts and honoring you know what, what's in there, honoring their truth. And you could be a skateboarder, you could be a

punk rocker, or a hip hopper, or a yoga practitioner. Um. Even some of the wards of suit and tie and you know has a nine job. It's to me, it has nothing to do with outsides. It really is all about insides and and I think that's something that's resonated with a lot of people because it's a pretty unifying theme. When did you start the Indie Spiritualist website? How long ago was that? I think it was in roughly two thousand and ten, um two, somewhere in that area. Um.

So yeah, yeah, about about four years ago. I would say, Okay, you've interviewed quite a quite a cast of characters through there. You've got a lot of great interviews in there. Yeah, thanks, well thanks. I you know. The weird thing was, especially in the beginning, I don't know how I was getting approved for these interviews. My friend Jessica, who did a show that just ended last year. It was a great

radio show called Where's My Guru? And um, she would interview some really wonderful spiritual teachers as well, and people would ask her, and people have asked me separately, you know, how do you get to interview these people? And we both had the same answer, which was just simply we asked exactly you know, right, if you just have to ask and put out there. I definitely haven't interviewed everyone

I've hoped to. But um, but like I was saying, especially in the beginning, I remember just shortly after I started the website. UM, I think it was my second or third interviews were both on a day I went up to Worcester, Massachusetts, and I had scheduled Danny Trejo, who's the actor from Machete and you know a million other movies. Um, and George Romero, who's the director for A Night of the Living Dead, and you know, all those incredible zombie films, and I got to interview them

back to back in person. They were doing a horror convention up in Worcester, mass And I was so nervous. I remember, just like, you know, because it was I'd been interviewing people for a while, but I had taken a very very long break and um and most of the interviews I had been getting back into were over the phone, but these were in person, and uh. And I just remember thinking, like, how I just started this website. How am I able to interview these people? And again,

you know, really I asked and it came through. And the Danny Trejo thing, just a quick funny story I haven't told us a long time, but um, not I'm thinking about it came to mind. Was we we did it in an Uno pizzeria and we were sitting there and I was, you know, kind of nervous, but kind of also like, wow, this is Danny Trio. I love this dude. And uh, and so I was letting me know, you know, I'm probably not gonna ask them most of the same questions He's used to I like to do

things a little different. And he looked at me and he's like, all right, that's cool, no problem. He's like, and if I don't like the questions, and we had silver worth the table and steak knats. He picks up the steak knife and he jokingly like motions that he's going to stab me. So I'm like, and the one hand, um laughing. But on the other hand, I'm like, this is Danny Trio, and you know, maybe he could really

stab me. But it went amazing and U and that was an incredible experience because we were supposed to only have fifteen minutes and we totally hit it off and we ended up doing like an hour long interview and it was just really awesome. So anyway, sorry to get off on the tangent, but that was just a really fun memory. No, that's a that's a great story. And I think that that idea of just asking is so relevant in general to just because I think it's one of those things that a lot of people we just

don't ask. We tend to not ask, whether it's fear of rejection or just not thinking about it, and that's kind of been the way with us. I mean, we're we've started to have some success as of late, but when we started, it was just you know, how many podcasts are out there, there's no end to them and U and but you just ask people and yeah, I get a lot of no answers or nos, and but I get enough yes is that are that are good?

And we just keep going. Yeah. And I think with people like yourself and your program and myself and what I'm doing, when when you're doing it from a place of integrity and passion, you know, and trying to make an impact in the world, that that's what matters most. You know. I don't mean to speak for you, but it sounds like you might share that in common where it's okay that people say, no, you're not doing it only, you know, to get X amount of views and whatever

else may come from that. You're doing it because for the love you know. I know it sounds a little cliche, but you know, I believe that for me at least, it's a very sincere truth. And so when you get those notes, it's okay. You know, you get notes, and then you move on and you get to interview other people that um that not only impact you, but you know, will impact your listeners hopefully, and and that in and of itself is really what makes it worth it. Yeah, exactly.

So one of the questions that I ask guests from time to time, and it's something I'm always curious about, is what does the word spirituality mean to you? So you use it in your title, it's, uh, it's a fairly nebulous word, but I'm kind of curious what it means to you. Yeah, you know, and it's it's funny, asset because as we were talking before we started the interview, I'm working on my second book right now and and actually talk like a bit about spirituality because it's such

an open ended broad word. Um. And for me, just I simply say, it's about waking up, you know, I just do it really easy. It's about waking up to the fact that there are deeper truths happening than what most of us that have been conditioned, you know, to believe as an ultimate truth is physical, manifest world, which is certain me part of the truth. But there's another side of the truth, which you know, in Buddhism they would call it ultimate or absolute reality, the unmanifest, the

dharma kayah or in mystic Christianity, the Godhead. Um. But but that's what it is to me. It's about just waking up to these deeper truths in our lives. You know, that that there's more than needs the eye in life. Um. But one thing I always tell people when I'm speaking or doing workshops or even writing, is that that's my experience.

You know. I always encourage people to become their own spiritual scientists, you know, to find out what spirituality truly is for them, you know, because we are the only ones that will ever know what's really happening inside of us. You know, we're the only ones that ever feel what we're feeling. I can tell you what I'm feeling, but you know you're not going to experience it. So I think it's important to learn from those who walked the path before us, and at least in the traditions that

resonate for us. Um. But to really honor our internal guidance and what that's telling us from where that's leading us. Well. That said, I was just having coffee a few weeks ago with someone named Chris Stedman, and he's an atheist. He's the humanist chaplain down at Yale University and he is an a phenomenal writer and author of a book called Statheist, and the book is about finding common ground

with religious believers are spiritual people. And I will tell you that Chris is one of the most spiritual dudes I have had the pleasure of chatting with recently. And he would probably cringe it that because I know he's not a fan of that word, and that's cool to me. Words are kind of you know, we get caught up in the semantics of them. I I don't know, like you know, God is a very loaded word for people. For me, it's not, but I understand for a lot

of people it is. UM. But you know, here's Chris, an atheist who has no in triest in you, organized religion or most spirituality, though he did UH study. I think some kind of Zen was his undergraduate study. UM. And you know he's concerned about how can we come together as humanity to make things better than this planet? You know, how can we serve one another? Where are um what unifies us rather than sets us apart? And that's a very spiritual thing to me. So again, you know,

spirituality is whatever we make of it. And uh, and for me, it's just just waking up. I like that the just waking up piece. That's a that's a good one. The one I've been using is one one of our earlier guests had, Kevin Griffin, and he said it was spirituality is just the realization that happiness comes from the inside, which I was like, that's a really that's a pretty pretty simple and straightforward approach to So I like that one. Also.

So you're musician and you you love music. You some of your music is available in your in your book and online, and you you interview musicians and you tell a story about a near mystical experience that you had, um while watching a particular rock band. Can you can you tell us that story that's the Van Halen was I think it's that. Yeah, Okay, so um yeah, that

was just four years ago. My brother and I had gotten free tickets I think my parents did UM to a Van Halen concert out here and they had just reunited with David Lee Roth, which I was super excited about. Um, so you know, we have free tickets and we're like, yeah, let's go check it out. And so we went and it was a lot of fun, and I was sober

at the time, so I just clear that up. But there was a point where the band left the stage and Eddie Van Halen was doing like this incredible just twenty minute guitar solo by himself, and I was just so captivated by it. Um. It became an incredibly transcendental experience for me. UM. I, you know, I had had similar experiences to this and meditation leading up to it, but never one. UM really just in a complete waking state, and especially with so many people around me and just

a very loud environment. But you know, I it was it's hard to put into words, but I mean it was basically everything tuned out. All I could hear was his guitar, Like the noise of the audience around me was gone, and it was just note for note what he was playing, and I was just locked in on his fingers moving on his fret board. And then it was kind of like even that started to fade away.

And at that point, I, you know, I was standing there and I literally my body started to let go of itself, and and that's what kind of snapped me out of it, because I was I caught myself starting to fall into the row of seats, in of me, and it was I like, I remember, like seb, I've been feeling a little embarrassed, but I looked around and you know, nobody knows because everyone else was just completely

enthralled in this ridiculous solo he was doing. But you know, I write about that in the book because part of what I talk about is that a lot of people have a limited kind of perspective on what spirituality is supposed to be, what it's supposed to sound like and look like. And um, and I personally, I'm a firm believer based on direct experience in numerous different occasions that if we're open to it, you know, we're able to have these experiences at all time. It's not about the

experience per se. But you know, I think that's just been nice little motivator that keeps us going on the path, lets us know that we're on the right track, that that we do have some of these experiences. But again, it's not about them, it's just, you know, they're a nice side side effect. We could say that, Um, that experience you described at the Van Halen concert, that sort of overall rapture overtakes my my co host here when he hears air supply so UM nice. So you UM,

you have a phrase. I think it might be one of the chapters in the book called no no Mud, no Lotus. That's actually UM. I saved the hell out of that one. UM. I hope I acknowledged it. But um tick not ham. That's just saying. I don't know if it originated with him, but that's where I became familiar with it. You know, he often uses that in

his Dharmatox No Mud, no lotus um. And that's something that deeply resonated for me, you know, in my own life, having gone through the cycles of addiction I did, but recognizing that it was similar to the lotus blossoming through the mud. You know, that's where a lot of the the grists for our spiritual mill comes from, you know, is the adverse times in our lives. You know, at the times it really cause us to step back and

reevaluate things. UM. I guess I showly speak for myself, but you know that does seem to be a pretty recurring theme and a lot of people on the spiritual path. But you know, it's these experiences that for me, it inspired me to Again. It was slow in the beginning because I was only kind of skimming the service, but later on to really start, um, you know, looking at my heart and touching it and allowing myself to get

raw you know in the process. And it's not it's not easy work, but that was the work that I realized I haven't gone through these mud experiences that I really needed to do in order to begin sincerely healing in my life and to not only cultivate compassion for others, but to really start with myself and to learn to love myself more so that I could truly offer that

to other people. So, yeah, it was through the mud experiences. Yeah, I always I always think that's a great point to make, is that none of the great experiences that we have are the people that we become. It tends to not be in spite of the problems we have, but because of them, yes, right right, And and that you know that The other thing too is that, um, a lot of people look down or not down, but you know, we're very averse to the pain and suffering in life.

And I understand that it's not fun. But again, you know, these can be our our great teachers, the catalysts that really tell us further in our spiritual path. And there's a quote from MDAs that I absolutely love. Um, I'll never forget the first time I read it. It was very deeply impactful for me. And he he writes that suffering is the standpaper of our incarnations. It does its

job of shaping us. And you know, that came to me in my life years ago at a time I really needed to read it because I was severely depressed. And I'm not saying that magically made everything better, but it was a time where you know, it's like, if if all this you know existence, for me at least it was just about pain and suffering, then what's the point and uh, And reading that really helped to shed

a different light on it for me. So and that kind of opened, um, some of the cracks that were already in my heart armor and and has gone on to continue opening and widening throughout the years since. Yeah, I agree, I think it when you're in the midst of it, sometimes that idea said in the wrong way can be very patronizing, like oh just shut up, um, but said in the right way can also be very hopeful and inspiring. And um, I just I love that phrase. No mud, no lotus because it just does remind me

that I can't bypass I have it. I think we all do have a desire to just always be happy. Which there's a ton of problems with that way of thinking, but but one of them is if I was always happy, I wouldn't I wouldn't have the things that caused me to to grow and to um ultimately experienced life more fully. Absolutely that that's that's so perfect. And act say it was just reading a a quote from from Wilke yesterday,

I think it was. And it was because they let everything happen to you, beauty and terror, just keep going. No feeling is final, you know, so as we're going through that mud, and and you know, our natural tendency, or at least mine was, and I think a lot of humanity shares us is to not you know, face the pain and not not look at it, you know, to For me, I would turn to drugs and alcohol. For others they turned to shopping or food or sex

and so on. Air supply of course, but you know, when we're not really looking at it, we're just keeping ourselves locked in this perpetual cycle is more of the same. So it's really um cultivating that compassion for ourselves and learning to touch those places, you know, become directly intimate with life and all of this ups and downs. Um, you know that we were able, I believe, to begin to more skillfully work with those difficult times and and face them. And it's not an easy thing, but you know,

it's it's worth it. The pain that may come up from old wreckage of our past, that's there no matter what. So it's up to us if we want to keep, you know, pushing it down, or you know, start to allow it to come up when it when it does, and and work through it and be there with it and and hold it again. Not fun, But what else are we going to do? You know? I guess these answers. Yes, keep suppressing it, but again it's just it's still there. It's not going anywhere, right yea. It finds a way,

finds a way out somewhere, right. Yes. Absolutely. You have a series on your website called ten Questions that you ask a variety of people, So I thought it would be fun to turn some of those back on you. Well played, sir, Well played? Um, So who or what do you attribute the person you are today to? God? I haven't done one of those interviews and literally it's been like two years. So okay, let's see who do I treat you the person I am today? Two? Um,

you know the cliche quick answer. You know, actually, no one's ever asked me these so um so really well done, Like no one's ever turned the table on me. So I've literally never really I mean I did think about him when I was writing them, but I have not gone back and revisited them. So you know the first thing that comes to mind is really my my parents and my brother. Um. I have been so blessed to have you know, this supportive family network in my life.

And you know, my parents are still together to this day, which I know is rare for a lot of people, you know, to have not gotten divorced. Um. And you know a big thing for me about still having them in my life is that, you know, I know so many people that have gone through what I've gone through, or not even as bad with addiction and just done pretty bad things in our life, and you know, their family turns their back on them and is done with them.

And my parents never did that. I Mean, there was time they had to uh show tough love, but they never completely wrote me off. And and that is something that's really huge to me and and it's very inspiring. And I think that was one of my great teachers regarding compassion in my life was that, you know, they

didn't completely write me off. In same with my brother, you know, because I put them through so much pain and suffering in their lives, you know, they having for them having to see me, like the number of times I would be in the emergency room strapped down, UM, totally incoherent. UM. I had a seizure in front of

my parents once. I was out in my driveway black out drunk at their house one time, and I had a bottle of well, yeah, I know, I was inside their house blackout drunk, had a bottle of kolon a pin, and my dad confiscated it because the colonic pins of benzo diazepine that you mix it with alcohol, it's just

bad news all around. And they knew that, UM. And so I took a big kitchen knife out of the drawer and went out into the driveway holding it to my throat, threatening to kill myself if they didn't give the pills back to me. So, I mean, these are just like some of the things I put them through, and you know, here we are years later and with a very strong relationship and bond and even after things like that, they never turned their back on me, So

that that was that was really big. Of course, there's many other things, but I think that's probably the biggest to be honesty, What are some of the musicians and albums that have impacted your life and in what way? And I'm going to qualify that with all time. And then I'm always interested in what people are into recently, sure boy, all time. The first one that comes to mind is Johnny Cash. He's a He's a big one for me. Um, I have a big old Cash tattoo

in my arm. I went out with a friend. We took a road trip to visit his grave out in Hendersonville shortly after he died, and we visited his grave with his very next to his wife June. So just something about him and is just badass three and his rawness has been Um, I don't big for me in

my life, but man, there's so many others. I think I've had a huge passion for punk and hardcore music and underground hip hop, um obscure bands that I'm sure most of your listeners won't know, but bands like Dead Guy and blood Let and Isis and Neurosis in the punk, hardcore, drone doomy scene, they've been huge for me. Hip hop wise, I am a huge fan of bands or groups like Tripical Quest, Public Enemy, de La Soul, Cannibal Ox, Hieroglyphics, that Whole Crew with Della Punky Ala Sapien, and Souls

of Mischief. Um. But yeah, then also like Texas is the Reason and uh Sam I am in jawbox. Uh, I'm super just eclectic towns band Zant. I don't know, you know, we're gonna We're gonna get off this interview, and of course I'll think of like a hundred bands that I wish I named, But I'll get emails for the next three weeks from you, like and I forgot so and so, and I need you to call me back and recorded so we can stub it in there. But no, yeah, I just I'm a lover of music

and you know, and most genres. So um yeah. As far as recent though, actually right before you called, I had saw that Stills a Mischief, who's a hip hop group just their album came out today and it's streaming on USA today and I was listening to it blown away. Um, the state of affairs and hip hop is a mess, which I think is no secret to real hip hop fans. But listening to this album like gave me such faith again in hip hop. It's it's got a real laid back,

old school vibe. It's it's exactly what I think hip hop me today. So, um, I was really really excited and I'm really excited about that. Uh. And then there's I don't know, Converge. I'm always listening to them, Jef Heaven, they just released a new song their albums Sunday there was phenomenal and they just had a new track amount I think this week that's great. And well it's the new Earth album is fantastic and ah yeah, I think those are a few. Um home, I'm listening to them

a lot, insane. Um, I haven't heard that the name in a while? Which which name? Oh yeah, yeah, they I thought of that because I had I run probably about five or six times a weekend. They often come up on my iPod shuffle. I'm a big fan of there. So you know, bads like that in Helmet and Melvin and you know, old school stuff like that. It's funny, you know, my my iPod still consists of like so much of the music I was listening to in high school.

That's still predominantly what I listened to these days. Um, there's not a lot of new new groups, not that I don't like them. I just I get new albums from bands that I liked that are still together. But I just am so busy with things these days. It's hard to set aside enough time to really explore new stuff. So luckily have a few friends who would turn me

onto things and and I'm really grateful for that. So otherwise I would just I'd still be listening to Primus and I don't know stuff like that all the time. So what does the human experience mean to you? You know, terror and beauty and everything and nothing all at once.

You know, it's really the more I get in't I've gotten into Nagarjina's two truths about the absolute reality and the relative reality, and you know that they're both simultaneously existing, Um, the manifest world and the unmanifest and and having experienced both, um, it's everything and it's nothing. And I know that's like one of those vague WI kind of answers. So if any listeners are listening, like yeah, after this guy, like I'm right there with you, after me. Sure, But that's

my my real, real answer, Like it really is. It's it's incredible and it's terrifying, and and it's nothing. And I don't know, you know, I think about like all of the thoughts and emotions and experiences that have come and gone in my life and the countless ones I'm sure that are still yet to happen. Um. You know, then there's that ever subtle, pervading I am awareness underlying all of it, and that's never changed, you know, since

I was born. It's it's the same sense of being of business right now as it was when I was a kid, you know, playing soccer, though I wasn't really aware of it then, you know, but then some punk skateboarding in high school who still wasn't really aware of it. But it was the same then as it is now, as it will be until the day I die, and then you know, and then it continues on, so everything and nothing. The question you ask is, and I think it's I'm just curious. Um. As a recovering addict and

alcoholic It's an interesting question. I think you ask people what they're thought is on mind altering drugs, and I remembering correctly, yeah, right, exactly was I I don't remember verbatim, but that's yes, that was the core of it, correct what Because I asked that, UM, and I liked asking that from people who have both you know, suffered from

addiction and who haven't UM in my life. And I know this ruffles feathers sometimes when I say it with those who are in recovery, but I don't look at all of my past experiences as as negative with with drugs or alcohol. And I still have friends that are able to drink or to do certain drugs and it doesn't impact our life at all. They're responsible, they're able to do it in a in a manner that UM,

you know, does not destroy their lives. And to them, I say, awesome, that's great, Like to each their own. I thoroughly believe that in my life. I look back and it wasn't the alcohol. I mean, that was my main drug of choice, and that just you know, always got terrible and ended up and just awful circumstances. But I look back at, you know, the hundreds of acid and mushroom trips that I took when I was younger, and I know that those played a role in expanding

my consciousness. I was not doing it with that intention, you know. I was doing it just because it was weird and I loved the weird things. Um, but it would be ridiculous for me to say that, you know, that did not have an impact on on opening my mind. Um. You know, I think to some of the deeper truths in life, and I'm not saying that doing those things are necessary to awaken to that, but I honored that that was part of my path. And the funny thing about that is, Uh, the one time, the very last

time I ever took any sort of hallucinogen. I think this was back in two five or two thousand six maybe, Uh it was. I took an eighth of mushrooms by myself, and it was a Sunday afternoon and I was really into Ramdas at the time, and um, reading be here now for like the twelfth time or whatever, and I'm like, you know, I'm going to take these and I'm going to see the face of God and it is going

to be incredible. And I took them and it was just a terrifying experience that resulted in me, like three or four hours into it, calling my parents, who lived about twenty minutes away. I don't know, I didn't call friends. I just called my parents and I told them, you know, I was tripping on mushrooms. I need them to come get me. And my parents they didn't know what that was. So my mom asked, should we call an ambulance and

I'm like, oh, god, no, get me. And so they, you know, they got to my apartment like half an hour later, and it was you know, like eight, no, no, probably seven o'clock, and I remember I could barely even talk. I was I was just so gone at this point. And they took me back to their house and I handed my mom my copy of Be Here Now. I'm like, here, maybe this will explain it. And we were walking to

the car from my apartment. I remember looking up to the sky and just seeing all the stars and I don't look at my parents, and I just all I could say was everything is too real and that was it. Like they were not impressed, but they brought me back to their house and I remember the Simpsons were on because it was a Sunday night, So that kind of started to bring me back down. And next morning I came downstairs and my mom had read the whole thing of be here Now and she still was not impressed.

She gave it back and didn't understand, not get it. Yeah, oh God, bless her soul, though for again never turned her back on me. And here I am today. Yeah, that's a great story. So I think we are near the end of our time here. Is there anything you would want to leave the listeners with that we haven't

covered or last thoughts on the theme? Yeah? No, I I really appreciate your time, um, and and I think what you guys are doing is tremendous, so I commend you for that, and and I I'm glad that you're carrying on and you know, spreading the good word. Um. But yeah, no, nothing on on my end. I I'm doing what I'm doing. If anyone cares to check out what I'm doing, the Indie Spirituals dot com is my website and from there you can find me on social

media and whatnot. But that is the only shameless plug I'm going to give you guys and bother you with. But sincerely thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it and really respect what you guys are doing. Oh, you're welcome, and we'll definitely have links to your site and your social media stuff up on our show notes. So yeah, thank you so much for taking the time. It's been a really enjoyable conversation. Yeah, the feeling is mutual.

Thanks so much. All right, take care. You can learn more about Chris Grosso and this podcast at one you feed dot net. Slash Gros