Catherine Gray on the Joy of Being Sober

We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their

good wolf m Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Catherine Gray, an award winning writer and editor whose work has appeared in almost every newspaper and magazine you can think of, from The Guardian to Cosmopolitan, to The Daily Mail and short List to the Sun. Catherine also works as a travel writer for Google and as a contributing editor for the Lifestyle Library. Her book is The Unexpected Joy of Being Sober. Stress happens to everyone.

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the interview with Catherine Gray. Hi Catherine, welcome to the show. Hi Eric lovely to be here. It's a pleasure to have you on You and I go back a little ways. I think you have written a piece for one of the papers in England about the show, and then I got an early copy of your book, The Unexpected Joy of Being Sober, which I really really liked and was really happy to be able to write a blurb for. So thanks for coming on. Well, I'm really happy to be here because I'm a big fan of the show

I've been listening to for about three years. Is blurb? The right word? Is that what they call those things that you put on a book jacket? Yeah, Blood's right, perfect? All right, Well, we'll get into the book here in a second, but let's start like we always do with the parable. There is a grandmother who's talking with her granddaughter and she says, in life, there are two wolves

inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness, bravery, love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the granddaughter stops and thinks about it for a second, looks up at her grandmother and says, well, grandmother, which one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you feed, So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that

you do well. I love this parable. I think it's just so perfect for me. The bad wolf represents resentment, and when I was living in active addiction, I would nurture resentments. I would feed them, I would exercise them as if they were a dog. I would take them for long runs and fatten them up, and feed grudges against people. And a really key mental shift for me was learning to feed my good wolf, which for me

is gratitude. Um, So I had to retrain my brain. Really, my brain was so used to looking out for annoyances and grievances and resentments that it wasn't used to looking for good stuff. It wasn't used to looking for things to be grateful for. So and it's still something that I have to do on a conscious level every day because evolutionary speaking, we are trained to look for threats and bad things on the horizon. So it does take time for our brains to get used to looking for

good things. And so I write a nightly gratitude list even now. Yeah, I think you're right. Our brains are wired to look for the bad and for those of us that descend into active alcoholism or addiction, I think there's an even more of an approach to that because we feel so bad about ourselves in a lot of cases. Yeah, And I think when you're really in the duldrums, when

you're really um depressed, it just infects everything you. You look for the bad um and it just takes time to get used to really looking for the helpers um and looking for the good things and seeking them out really like a lighthouse. Yeah. So I'd like to start by something that you say late in the book, but I think it's important to frame up the whole conversation, and you say, the question to ask yourself is not am I an alcoholic? Swivel that focus the question is

would my life be better if I was sober? If the answer is yes, then shoot for sober. And I love that because it really gets us out of the discussion about my an alcoholic? Am I not an alcoholic? What does that even mean? And really gets it pretty much down to the very basics. And I love the way you frame that, and I think it's a great way to start this conversation for people who may not think of themselves as alcoholic, but may question their relationship

with alcohol. Well, thank you. Yeah, I've read a lot about it, and the way that the experts are now thinking about alcoholism is that it's a spectrum of dependence. It's not black and white, normal drinker and alcoholic and somewhere you tip along from one to the other. It's a it's like a one to ten spectrum. And so therefore a lot of people will be googling am I an alcoholic? At two am when they've had three or

four glasses of wine? And I don't really think that's what they should be asking themselves, because it's because it's a spectrum, you can get out earlier, right, you know, I didn't get out until I was at number nine on the spectrum. But if I hadn't been so hung up on I only the quick drinking if I'm an alcoholic, then I might have got a lot earlier, at six

or seven, before things really got dark for me. So I think that's an important flip for people to do, which is I think more, you know, will my life be better if I'm sober? That's the only thing you really need to ask. Yeah, I think, as you and the UK would say, I think that's brilliant, um because because it is such a different way to look at it versus the concept of bottom. And I want to read something you wrote about bottom, because I just thought

it was a great phrase. And you say, one person digs until they are just about losing the golden tops of autumnal trees. Another digs until they're nearing the Earth's core and are surrounded by skin melting lava. And I just think that is so true. Having been in a recovery sobriety for most of my adult life, I've just seen these staggering differences between people, and even in my own life. The first time I got so or when I was twenty four, I was much closer to the

skin melting lava. When I got sober again, I was sober about ten years and I had a relapse and I went out for about three or four years. When I came back, I was certainly past the top of the trees, but I was nowhere near in the state of external consequence that I was the first time. And I really had to work with that idea of bottom for myself because I kept having to say to myself, do I really need to take it there? You know, I know where this elevator is going. Can I step

off earlier? And I'm so glad I was able to do that, And I think to your point, lots of people can do that. Also. It doesn't have to be a question of disease of alcoholism. It's just a question of I love the way you put it. Is my life better this way? M M yeah, absolutely. I mean I think if people did approach it that way then and bottom, as you said, just it looks different for everyone.

I know somebody that quit drinking after her first ever blackout and I had hundreds, maybe even thousands, and her first one that was it for her, that was her bottom. It just you know, different levels get off the higher floor than I did. You know. Um, So it's I think it's a very important flip for people to make. Just look at look at it more of a positive way. You don't have to wear a label, you don't have to look at it in a black and white way.

You can just decide to quit drinking, and you know that, you don't have to call yourself an alcoholic. You can just call yourself teetotal or alcohol free. You know it. There's so many different options out there for people. Teetotal Is that a British phrase? I had never heard that till I read your book. I really yeah, I never heard it's maybe maybe it's because we love tea so much. I don't know. It starts with a double leaf. So but teetotal would be about right because I do drink

a lot too. Yeah, I think the ideas as you were saying that, I was thinking, you know, you don't have to wait until you have a heart attack to start not eating as many French fries and jogging from time to time. Yeah, that's a really, really good parallel. It's just something you can make a decision about at

any time. And as a result of me quitting, a couple of my friends, who I mean absolutely nobody in their lives would say they have a problem with drinking, they've decided to quit as well, and they just feel so amazing for it. I think sobriety gets such a bad rep It's seen as something that you only have to do if you become addicted, and that's not true.

Anyone can make that lifestyle choice at any time, and even people that only drink two or three times a week may find that they feel vastly different and better, which has been the experience of my friends. Um, because it does affect our health. It doesn't affect our mental state.

It makes a small ant, just it costs a lot of money, and if you do over drink, it ruins the entire next day and maybe even the day after, which is what started happening to me in my thirties, that hangovers became two day events, right, and there there are countless health implications to drinking alcohol. And again, this isn't a if you like to have a few drinks, you know you're a bad person parade we're having here

right at all. I think it's just broadening the ability to think about your relationship with alcohol versus, like you said, this black or white. Either I'm an alcoholic or I'm not. Let's talk about moderation, because for those of us who are on the further end of that dependency spectrum, right, moderation is just, if not impossible, absolutely torturous, right. Um. But I do think that even for people who aren't

quite that far along, moderation can be really challenging. And I have a saying I say to people when I'm talking to them about recovery and I A, you know, there is just a beautiful clarity to zero. Like it's just if you're always in that spot where you're like, well, should I shouldn't I have I had too many? While I had three last last night, so I only have one today. That spot is just exhausting, and there is just this clarity of like, I don't I don't do it.

I think later in the book you quote Alex Corb, you quote him throughout the book, and and he was one of our earlier guests and great guy, and he talks about how when we're in that undecided state, our limbic system, our emotional center is a little bit worked up, and that by actually making the decision, by having a decision, it allows that to settle down. And that is one of the gifts of sobriety, is not being in that constant trying to decide should I, shouldnt I, how many,

what's too much? Etcetera. Yeah, it's exhausting. It's like a mental spin cycle. Um, and I think you're absolutely right. Even even if you're on the lower ends of the spectrum, it's it's difficult to moderate. It's a tricky thing to do, purely because alcohol isn't built for using it moderately. Um, it's a disinhibitor. So once you have one or two, that erod your ability to say no to the third and fourth. Because it's a disinhibitor, it lowers our inhibitions.

It causes us to make more reckless decisions, It causes us to behave more impulsively. So the very nature of it means that once you have one or two, you're probably going to have three or four. The innate nature of alcohol makes it difficult to moderate it. Um. And as you say, Alex Cord, he's a legend and he just summed it up so well, which is that the limit system is in a state of distress when we're caught between. It's similar to the you know, am I going to go to the gym? I don't want to

go to the gym? Oh maybe I should. I'll do it tomorrow. You know. It's that sort of indecision. And if you just make a clear cut yes or no, then your brain does calm down dramasally. And like you say about the zero, the beauty of zero, once you take off the table completely, your brain is freed up to think about so much more interesting things. I find it really liberating not to have that constant ticket tape in my head anymore of Oh I need to only

drink to drinks. I've got that thing to do tomorrow. How am I going to wear only drink to drinks? So, yeah, it's such a freeing thing to take that away. Yeah. There's a line in the a A big book that says the alcoholic is unable to control and enjoy his drinking. And I thought about that for a while and I realized what what that was really saying was you can't do the two at the same time. Control maybe right

for very limited short stretches of time. When I came back to recovery this time, I went to moderation management because I knew, like, Okay, I'm gonna have to give this up entirely. And what person who loves drinking isn't terrified by the thought of giving it up. So I was like, I'm going to figure out how to moderate this.

And so I, I mean, I did moderation recovery. I mean, I was probably the most hard working student ever because I was like, I want to make this work, and it was just miserable, and I remember so many nights. It's at like eleven at night. I'm standing by the sink in my kitchen. I know it's bedtime. There is no reason under God's green earth to take another shot of whiskey. And yet I sit there five fifteen minutes wrestling with it, and I lose, you know, three out

of five times. But that control effort takes all the fun out of the drinking. You know, I could enjoy it if I just like let the rains loose, although by the end there wasn't much enjoyment. I want to talk about inhibitions because you've got a great line in the book that I wanted to make sure we got to at some point. So you say, inhibitions are great. They kill bad buzzes, not good buzzes. We should not

want to turn them off. They protect us. Removing them before striding out into a night full of horny men is like disabling the automatic breaking system in a car and then driving straight into a wall. So good, it's so funny and so true. And yet there is that thing right where we do feel like we want to lose our inhibitions to some degree. I mean, I think I still wrestle with that sometimes, like I don't think I want to lose them with the extent that I used to lose them, but there's a part of me

that's like, this would be easier. And you also reference that by talking about it being like a cheap code in a video game. Alcohol. Yeah, it enables us to zoom from sort of level two insecure to level seven, which is bouncing around a dance floor. And I think what people are seeking in alcohol, and I absolutely understand why they do, um, I did it for twenty one years,

you know, is to take the edge off. They just want to take that nervous edge off when they go into a party, or go for dinner as somebody new, or go on a day. You know, it's it's there's a nerve racking things. Um. And then the nature of alcohol, as we've discussed, means that you go too far, you a road, too many inhibitions, and then end up doing things that you would never dream of doing. I mean, I once got into a hot tub topless and my

work Christmas party. That's the insane thing to do. And you know, I did so many other crazy things that I would never do because my inhibitions were completely gone by the time that I drank a bottle and a half or two bottles of wine. So I think it's a natural instinct and urge to just feel instantly relaxed in a social situation, which is what we get from alcohol. It is a relax that you know, it does help us relax into a social situation. But it's something that

comes back to bite us. It really does, and you can learn other methods of doing it. It takes a little bit longer. Um. I find that when I get to a party, especially if I don't know anyone, I'm on edge for maybe half an hour. But then you do settle into it. But people do that by chucking back a drink. Yep, yep, I agree. I mean it's great in that regard, it's useful in that regard. And you know, for me, I've said many times that two drinks of alcohol is the best antidepressant I've ever found,

like still to this day. I mean, it was like if I could put that in an antidepressant pill and take it, I would. The problem is that it just it doesn't work. You know, it doesn't work. It doesn't keep working. It's the elusive to yeah, because then two is three and before I know it. It's it's ten And I mean my history is just so clear cut

in my case. But there are those moments still where if I'm feeling depressed, or if I'm feeling particularly stressed, I have that moment of like, I wish I had the fast lane here, right, I wish I had the right I think, without a doubt, my life is so much better. And I think even if you take the really horrific pieces out, that my whole life is still much better. You know, even if it hadn't become the horror show it was. I think myself being sober is

just a better way for me to be. You've got something you said later in the book somewhere that no one regrets getting sober. They really don't do They don't nobody ever does. Um, And yeah, I know what you mean. The fast lane. It's a quick fix. But then when you learn other tools, whether they're you know, say, for instance, I will always exercise before I go on a date, and I know that that flushes adrenaline and court dissolved from my system and I will be a lot more chilled. Um.

I always meditate before a work meeting. I carry around essential oils basically the knee of five years ago would have hated me today. She would have thought she was a real hippie, very annoying. But I do all of these things and they work. And actually, my anxiety in the last maybe five years of my drinking just went up and up and up and up until I was basically agrophobic. I leaving the house freaked me out. I had to have a drink to leave the house and

go to the step market to buy more drink. And now my anxiety has basically gone. Like I went on Live TV a couple of weeks ago, and I never ever could have done that in the last five years of my drinking, because they've shown that it does work. It's a short term solution that dampens down anxiety, but over time it makes us less able to deal with stress. So it's you know, it doesn't work long term. So

we just need to remember that, right right. And when I say, you know, two drinks of alcohol being the best antidepressant I found, that's true in a very short term sense. But alcohol as a whole made me very depressed. You know, it made me made me more depressed overall. I want to talk a little bit more about sort of the front side of getting sober, you know, the decision, and then let's move into some of the ways that you did and some of the things that were helpful

for you. You're describing how awful you felt when you were first getting sober, you know, the first week, and you said, but let's get one thing straight. This is not life without alcohol. This is not how you feel sober. This is how you feel because of the drinking. This too, shall pass after just ten days. Don't blame being sober, Blame the booze. That's the real villain of this piece.

And that's one of those things that I say to people so often in early sobriety, is like, don't mistake what you're going through now, don't mistake the process of getting sober for what it's like to be sober, because they are very different. Yeah, that's so true. Um. And here in the UK we have something called dry January. UM, I don't know whether you have that in the States. Do you have dry January? Well, there may be some sort of um, small challenges, but I've not heard of

it as a as a large thing. But again, I'm pretty removed from alcohol culture, so I don't know. Okay, Well, it's basically a thirty day thing that about five million Brits do every year, and they think that that's what it's like to be sober long term. And a lot of the time it takes two or three weeks for your body to actually detox from alcohol if you had a really boozy December. Um so, they'll only just be

starting to feel normal before they start drinking again. Um So I always recommend, even if people don't want to go completely alcohol free, if they just want to take mini spells, for people to do at least ninety days, because you need to get past that withdrawal stage, which pretty much every drinker will go through, even if they're drinking low levels, and to start feeling your body start functioning properly, and your sleep start getting deeper and you know,

sobersleep was such a revelation to me. I've always woken up five times a night when I was drinking, and now I can sleep right through for eight or nine hours. So those things only happen once you crossed the hurdle of the first couple of weeks or three weeks, when your body is just getting used to living without alcohol.

So Yeah, yeah, I agree. And I think the other piece of that is that if it's a temporary thing, or or if it's just like I'm just not gonna drink for thirty days and see how I feel, that's different than saying I'm going to learn the skills to enjoy life sober, because it's one thing to be abstinent, and that's a great step, right, or can be a

great step in a lot of ways. But my you know, I know for myself, if I had not changed, if I had not learned how to work with my patterns of thought and emotion and all that, I wouldn't have stayed sober. I wouldn't have been able to. So it was all that work that I did that allowed me to be not depressed. You know, that's so important. And I think that's what you miss if it's just like I'm just gonna take thirty days off because there's no investment.

And I'm not saying again that's a bad thing, but I'm I'm I'm agreeing with you that it's the investment into what else do I do instead that can be so valuable or is so valuable. Yeah, it's kind of like um, having somebody tow your car off the road, but you're not actually fixing your car. It's it's you're not going down into the mental machinations of why you drank in the first place, which for me was social anxiety. And then I discovered I had raging love addiction, so

I had to unravel all of that. Um. You know, it's it's digging deep and tinkering in the engine of why you're drinking became so run away and out of control, and fixing it at the source and continuing to maintain it just as you would a car. That's how I think of it. So you know, you have to make sure the oils tucked up for what have you, and take it for regular emot s because otherwise you'll find yourself broken down on the side of the road crying.

You know, it's very much an under the herd thing that you too in order to maintain it long term. And one of the things you talked about that was so helpful for you early in sobriety and maintaining sobriety, and I think is you know, a theme of this show for everybody, whether they're in sobriety or not. But you talk about addictive voice recognition. Can you can you talk a little bit about what that is? Yeah? Sure.

So I stumbled upon a blog called Tired of Thinking About Drinking in Early Recovery, and it was one of the things that was so such a seismic change for me Um. And she calls her addictive voice wolf ee, he's the big bad wolf, which is apt for the show. And it's based on this technique called addictive voice recognition, which was I believe it was in the nineties and fifties. It was created and it hasn't had that much recognition, but I just found it to be such a game

changer for me Um. And it's about separating out the voice in your head that wants you to drink or use and seeing it as separate from your core self. Your courself wants the best for you. This voice doesn't. It wants you to go on a mass of vendor till four am and spent all your money on shots. So I ended up using this and I called my addictive voice valdemot from Harry Potter because that just that just seemed to some it up kind of evil but

silken and persuasive. And now, I mean, it was something that I battled with all the time. You know, Valdemot was always in my head in early recovery, and now I barely hear him. It's barely a whisper. So it just fades and fade and fades and fades. But that technique was so key for me, So yeah, I really recommend it to everyone. Yeah, I think it's like I said,

in cases of addiction, it's very critical. You know, I've often said that, you know, my my addictive bad Wolf was was a particularly you know, bad add case of a bad wolf, right, and and you talk about, you know, Voldemort. I think that's a that's another good example I've also found.

And I think, like I said, a lot of this show I think has been about realizing that we all have those voices, even if it's not the voice of addiction, and that technique of giving it a name or personifying it is one of the techniques that comes out of acceptance and commitment therapy as as one example of it. It's about being conscious of it and personifying it. But you also talk about some other ways to work with

that addictive voice or with negative thought patterns. Um I thought maybe we'd run through a couple of them, the first one you refer to as the B and B model. Oh yeah, I really like that. Um. So that is

based on Oh no, is it is it? ROOMI? I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing anyway, Okay, great, Um it's a poem by Roomy and it's it's about treating thoughts that come into your head as if they're visitors and you're running a B and B. And so, if you're running a B and B, if somebody comes through the door and they're an unwelcome guest, like anger or annoyance or jealousy, you're still going to welcome them in and

treat them nicely. And it just I think we tend to think that we're bad people if we have bad emotions, and that's not true. The human experience is it comes with a range of all the emotions, the good and the bad. Even Mother to Reason got really angry sometimes, you know, it's we're not robots, were not in ex Maconna. I don't that's a joke. I'm probably gonna lose like half of our subscribers for that, but I couldn't resist

Mother to Reason. Yeah, so, I I think it's really important to recognize that you know, these thoughts and emotions, they might be unwelcome, but just just be like, oh, hi, anger, you know you're a bit annoying, but I guess you're here, so you know, just treat them with respect as you would a guess if you were a B and B owner. I think there's a phrase in Buddhism invite Mara to tea.

You know, the embodiment of a lot of that negativity, and it's about well, just you know, apparently the Buddha would would used to you know, the stories would be he'd see Mara or his his attendant, and Anda would see Mara and be like, Buddha, you know he's here. It's you know, he's and Boodhill be like, we'll just invite him for tea, and so, you know, it's a it's a very similar idea. The next one was children in a car. So yeah, that's I love that. That one.

That's from one of my sober friends who said that feelings are like children. You don't want them driving the car, but you shouldn't stuff them in the boot either. Um, so I assume that is the is the trunk for exactly you're not going to put the children in the trunk. That's downright child abuse. So let them chitch after away in the back and get on with your life, you know, drive away um and just let them get on with it. And I really loved that because feelings that they don't

have to drive us. We can just let them exist. We don't have to shove them away, they can just be there um. And that's something that I really learned how to do through meditation, mindfulness, meditation. So and before that, I think I felt like I was just sort of kind of hostage to my feelings and emotions and they were driving the car and I had no choice as to where we go. If I was angry, then I was going to have a rant at somebody. And that's just not the case. You can observe these things and

let them come and go. Ye. And then the next one was bird watching. Yeah, so that's something I got from a meditation out called Buddafi. And the idea is you pretend that you're a bird watcher and you're in a hide and you're just really quiet, and you're observing your thoughts and emotions just as you would birds, and just as you would name the birds. If you're a bird watching. You know, there's an eagle, there's a blue tit,

there's a sparrow. Um, you name the emotions like jealousy, rage, discussed, what have you. But you don't disturb them. You just let them go about their way as you would birds. Yeah, that's a that's a great one. I think there's lots of variations on that theme. You can pretend you're watching them float by in a river, clouds in the sky. But yeah, I think all those are really useful ways to work with those negative thought patterns or those voices

in our heads. So I want to talk about a couple other things here before we wrap up that I think are really useful. And one of them is a phrase that you've put in there called don't try harder try for it. If something's not getting you sober, keeping you sober, try something else. Your successful combination will be unique to you. There is no right way or only way to get sober. Yeah, and that that was something I feel strongly about. I'm very pro choice when it

comes to recovery. I don't believe that there's only one way to get sober um, and I think it's a case of just trying absolutely everything that you can find. I mean, some of my friends use things like E F. T. Tapping or um you know, things that that I have tried and just don't work for me at all, but

they work a treat for them. So that's brilliant. UM. And just finding your unique pattern that works for you and stick into it, because everyone is different, even if they're in the same program, they use it differently, and they have tools outside the program that you might not know about that they use. I think every recovery path is completely unique. UM. So I think it's important that people know that that they have choices, and there are

so many different ways to do this. Some of my friends try zanex a day, but I don't think that's what you mean. That doesn't sound like a good idea recommend I'm exaggerating a little bit, no, but I think that is really true. And you know, I came up in twelve step traditions and that's where I got sober, and and I have lots of challenges with those today and things that I don't like. But I don't think I ever thought like this is the only way. A matter of fact, you know, it says right in the

twelve step literature it is not the only way. Um. I find myself a little stuck because when people come to me about it, the only thing I can say is,

here's what I did right. This was my plan. And I don't feel comfortable dispensing advice about well that might work or that might work, you know, But I agree with you try lots of different things because people are different, and we respond really differently, and our degrees of of um dependence are different, and our social support situations are different, in our lifestyles are I mean, there's so many factors that they're just simply isn't a this is the only

way to do it. What I think is interesting in looking at at a A or twelve step programs is I sometimes marvel at how brilliantly designed they were in certain ways, you know, now recovery. You know, people in twelve step programs, the idea is that it's a higher power or God that gets you sober, and I actually don't think that's what it is at all, unless you

want to consider the group your higher power. But they built in so many of the things that we would recognize in different recovery approaches, you know, social support, not doing it alone some way that via the steps, but can be lots of different ways to actually start to change the way you look at and you view the world dealing with resentment, right, That's something that's right in the middle of the steps that you talked about. One of the things we talk a lot about with with

changing habits and and recovery is accountability. You know, it's built right into the twelve step programs because you've got those little chips. I mean, there's so many the things there that again I think are very brilliantly designed for something that was figured out in in you know, essentially

nineteen thirty nine. But it has right right, it's but it has a lot of baggage with it too, and I think that's unfortunate for you know, from my perspective, that's the unfortunate part, because I think there's so much good in twelve step programs and the thing that I think is so useful about them is they're just absolute ubiquity, right like they are everywhere and for some people that having somewhere to go every day and have people to talk to at any time can can be really helpful.

But my point being that I think there are some principles we can look at that are useful in making changuring getting sober. But we can find lots of different ways to fulfill those principles or those needs. Yeah, sure, absolutely, I mean I learned a lot. I went for I was in twelve step recovery for six months and I took a lot of lessons from that. As you say,

I mean, that's where I learned about resentments. That's where I heard expectations are resentments under construction for the first time, and a light bulb turned into my arm in my head. I had such high expectations for people, and that's why I was frequently disappointed and frequently resentful. So it was about undoing the foundation, which was building the expectation um

And you know, I met so many wonderful people. And social support is so crucial building a tribe, and I ended up moving away from a a and finding that elsewhere. But you know, it doesn't matter how you do it, as long as you find these things which are social support. As you mentioned, accounted ability, that's really important. I think I personally think day counting is really important and now I do that viron app and if I have a

drunk I would obviously tell people um. And you know, undoing the ways that we think about the world and rebuilding them. Um. Talking to other people going through the same thing so important. Yeah, there's so much there to be mind, but there's also other ways to create it. So it's just about what works for you. Whatever works.

So the last thing I want to cover here is you just mentioned a little bit with day counting, and I've been having this conversation with a friend recently who's relatively new on the recovery journey, doing it his own way, which is great, But we talked about this idea of one day as a one day at a time or you know, forever, because you know, forever freaks a lot of people out. And and I love what you said. You said I needed something larger than a day, but

smaller than forever as far as your time frame. So you say, choose your own time frame, find the one that works for you. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's I mean, the one day at a time. I definitely did it one day at a time in the beginning, one hour at a time. At the time, it was it was just you know, hanging onto my sobriety by a thread. But later on I think I was maybe a month or two in I started looking for a bigger time frame, and that for me was a hundred days. I signed

up to a hundred day challenge. And now I actually find it really comforting to say forever, because I don't know. That doesn't scare me. The thought of drinking scares me. Brings sober forever. It's lovely and comforting. It's like a duvet. Um. So, I think it just depends on you and how you approached the one day at a time thing. I would see more relationships as one day at a time, you know, take it a day at a time by other than looking at a big scary picture. Um. So I use

that for relationships. But for sobriety, I'm happy with forever. I never want to drink again. So for those of you who are recently engaged, I think she's saying you might want to rethink that. No, I know, I'm kidding. Um No, I think. And I also think that the time frame that's right for us can often change for for our own selves. I mean there are times, you know, there were certainly times for me, you know, where one

day at a time was really what it was like. Okay, just get through today, and then there's other times where you know, I think the idea forever is very comforting, and then there's other times where you know, I have a little bit of like well, and and that leads into the last thing that you say. And I think this is really so powerful with drinking, and I've talked

about it on the show. With everything you say, choosing not to drink rather than being forced into it is a subtle but powerful and off shift I don't versus I can't. And I think that that feeds into the one day at a time or the time frame, because if it's an I can't, then we start negotiating with that can it be then, you know versus I don't is really our choice. And I just think remembering that we have choices one of the most free things we

can do. Yeah, definitely, um And they've shown that in studies. What if you say I can't eat chocolate, then you feel deprived, you feel angry about not being able to eat chocolate, Whereas if you say I don't eat chocolate, then that's liberating. It makes you feel empowered, it makes you feel like you've really chosen that path. And that's how I approach sobriety, I choose not to drink and

I really never want to do it again. Um. So I think it's it's how you approach it, whether you see it's being caged in, you know, not being able to drink, or being free of having to drink. So it's it's yeah, definitely for me, it's more of a freedom than a cage. Excellent. Well, I think that is the perfect place to wrap up. Thank you so much for a your support of the show over the years and be taking the time to come on and writing a wonderful book. Thank you, it's been a real pleasure. Okay,

take care by Okay, okay bye. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a donation to The One You Feed podcast. Head over to one you Feed dot net slash support. The One You Feed podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting the show.