Byron Katie- The Work

But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf m Thanks for joining us. Our guest today is Byron Kathleen Mitchell, better known as Byron Katie, an American speaker and author who teaches a method of self inquiry known as the Work of Byron Katie or simply

as the Work. She is married to writer and translator Steven Mitchell. Byron is the founder of Byron Katie International or b k I, an organization that includes the school for the work and turnaround house in California. Here's the interview. Hey everybody, before we get started, I just wanted to say a little bit more about the one on one

work that I'm doing. If you're the kind of person who says things like I'm just not a motivated person or I always start things and never finish, then sending an email to Eric at one you feed dot net and let's talk about it, because that's not the kind of person you are. That's just to behave usually been doing. Thanks, Hi, Katie, welcome to the show. Thank you, Eric. Good to be here. Yeah,

I'm excited to get you on. I've I've heard, I've had, interestingly a bunch of listeners who have suggested you as a guest many times. So I thought, it's finally time. Let's uh, let's do it. So I'm glad you were able to find the time. Well, that was easy to do. I appreciate the good that you do on this program and it's my privilege to contribute in any way. Well,

thank you. So we'll start the show off like I always do, with the parable of the two Wolves, and I'll then ask you kind of what that means to you. So there's the parable of two wolves, where there's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson and he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops,

he thinks about it for a second. He looks at his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to ask you how that parable applies to you in your life and in the work that you do. Well, you know it's the one we feed, if it's the if it's the terrible one, and to my um way of thinking, it's equally as good as the other one.

And here's what I mean by that. I use that as it's like I identified that as the very thing that I need to move in front of me to question. I need to question anything that would oppose what is good interesting. So it shows me the stumbling block. It shows me why I'm in a bad mood. It shows me why I'm depressed, It shows me why my um.

Let's say it's a thinking disorder. So now that it's identified, like maybe I had the thought she doesn't care about me, she never liked me, and then I get, you know, wrapped up in this and maybe it's even a family member. But there's a there's a lot of around that happening, let's say, So the emotions wake me up to I'm on, you know, I'm I'm wolfing. I'm I'm wolfing out of out of a direction that is going to go anywhere

other than depression or stress. So now that it's identified, I can question using this inquiry that that um that is my life to offer to people. So I questioned it, and the next time that wolf arrives, I see it. It's laughable if I notice it at all, because I'm awake to what is true and what is not. And it leaves me in the position of life with this other wolf, the wolf, where the decisions I make are effortlessly good for me, good for you, you know, good

for for my family, good for the world. Great. So let's let's jump into the work, which is actually what you're I'm not using that term generically, that's what you call what you do the work, and it's a you know, if I was to sum it up really briefly, it's a method of questioning our own thoughts to determine whether they're real or not. So can you kind of can we just start walking through how you know what that

what that four step process looks like. Yes, let's let's say I had the thought she doesn't care about me? And then and I don't even know I'm having it. This is just real life. I'm just really sure of it. She doesn't care about me. Now the stress I'm experiencing, or the resentment or whatever, I'm going to feel it. And maybe I'm just doing the dishes and this is all happening while I'm doing the dishes. So she doesn't

care about me, and so I feel the stress. So now I'm going to question it she doesn't care about me? The first question is is it true? The second question is can I absolutely know that it's true? She doesn't care about me? And then the third question is how do I react? What happened the moment I believed that thought and I noticed I was doing my dishes and I was loving what is and all of a sudden that story hit me. Now, I'm not even in the room. I'm in the pastor future. I'm not even where I

really am. So then I notice what happened when I believe the thought. And then the fourth question and the last question is who would I be without the thought? She doesn't care about me? And then that takes me back too, where I really am woman doing the dishes, looking out through the window at the sky and the trees, or at my next door neighbor, or you know, I'm present. And then I invite people to turn it around to find opposite. She doesn't care about me. When I find

an opposite, she does care about me. So now I begin to notice what does that mean to me? She does care about me? And I begin to contemplate that and experience that and those moments when she was carrying and get into some of that reality. And it's not to change my mind, it's just to notice that, you know. It takes me back to a balance. And then another turnaround. I don't care about her, So I look at those situations.

Where is it that I wasn't caring about her? Where is it that I said or did something that was unkind? And I just noticed that, And I just noticed it as I'm doing the dishes, and then there's another turnaround. The original is she doesn't care about me. Another turnaround is I don't care about me. Well, in that moment, where is it I wasn't caring about myself in that moment with her, And in the moment of doing the dishes,

where is it that I wasn't caring about myself? Well, it's not kind to throw me into to throw myself into a state of stress and resentment when I'm simply doing the dishes and this wonderful moment. Now, this really the state of grace. And basically it leaves me to educate myself to what I'm believing. Einstein said, an unquestioned mind is an unquestioned life is not worth living. And I've Socrates, go ahead, thank you for that. And I've come to see that it's, you know, in in my experience,

completely true. It is to believe what we think is is um the cause of all war. You know, prior to investigation, we can we can, we can be you know, we're wiser than that. And when we question what we believe, what's left is that wisdom, you know, the other wolf. I call it our true nature. And so how does how do we use that? Like that example makes sense because I might be totally making up that story, right, Okay, she doesn't, could be just someone that's something someone told me,

even that I believed. What about situations I'm trying to think of. Let me, I'm trying to think of something we could play with. It might be a little bit more challenging. Um, I heard part of something that was on your podcast and um it got cut off. I don't know what happened, but you were talking with a woman who had lost her daughter. Because if I'm being honest, where I always go with these things as I go? Well that works for you know, Yeah, I came home

from work and I misinterpreted my wife's glance. Right. But but then I go to but does it? How does it work on you know, more intense things? And I would have loved to hear the end of that conversation with her. On one hand, I agree very much that like how we feel is very much the product of our thoughts. Um, but I don't know, like you know, like if you lose somebody is is grieving a is that an inappropriate response? Is that it's not inappropriate at all?

It is this. This seems radical, but I've really tested it and and come to understand that there's nothing wrong with grief. It's just that I've come to understand that grief is the effect of what I'm thinking and believing in the moment. So it's a it's an egoic state, no matter how loving and kind we um we see grief to be. So ultimately, is that sort of pointing at that idea of we are not these individual selves

that we think we are. Well, yes, yes on on one hand or on both And but you know, if I'm grieving, Uh, if someone I love dies and I'm grieving and I get and I really explore that, I come to see that it's all about me, they won't be here for me. And so I am just this puddle of egoic tears getting sympathy from everyone I know if they really care about me, if they're really sensitive.

So this egoic thing is being is being nurtured by the people around me because we really don't know how, you know, what to do with it other than that. So it's really as a kind act. But through this exploration, you know, question my thoughts um in these moments of grief, and I've come to see that that, um, it's all about me, and that stops me from being there for

other people who are still frightened of death. That stops you from being there for them in what way to comfort them, to listen to them, to feed them, to clean their house, to serve in any possible way that I can. And you know, there when people it's for me it's a dream, and I know the pain of that and the sorrow of that. It doesn't matter if it's a dream or not. When we're believing it, it's real. And just because we get clear doesn't mean we get stupid.

You know, our our nature is to serve and to love and to be there no matter what, unconditionally. I mean, what would stop me but fear right. And I think it's interesting we had, um, we had a guest on earlier. We were talking about that idea of when you have you have a transcendental view, or that that idea of duality falls away and you you sort of see the world as as this thing as you know, maybe a

dream or whatever you would call it. And what he was talking about is how on one hand that experiences everything and then on the other hand, you still live most of your time in what does appear to be, you know, in in the world that most of us experience, and and is your belief that by doing the work consistently you see that other world more often. I can never see the world. I see the world as I

imagine it to be. And and so you know, if you had a dream Eric where it was you were asleep at night and you were dreaming, and you were so awake to it, you were actually navigating through it, you understood it. And then there are some dreams that you have no control in and you're really happy you woke up, and or there are some really pleasant dreams that you didn't navigate in and you're just happy that

it was a sweet dream. Mh. Well, in my experience living out of this question mind, I'm always in the dream, and I'm always navigating sweetly through it. There's no little blip or and and let's say there is like this major blip or just a little one in other words, unhappiness or fear, any any of that. I just identify what it is. I put it on a judge of Neighbor worksheet. Those are always free on the work dot com and then I question what I was believing in

that situation, and I set myself free. And I don't do it to set myself free. I do it because I want to understand what's true and what's not, what is real and what isn't. I have I have a right to that as a as a loving, caring human being. Yeah, what are some of the main obstacles that would stop people from getting benefit out of doing the work or getting the full benefit out of it? Well, the one that comes to mind is is really un is your

mind open to it or not? And so if if my mind weren't open to it, there's it's that's a dead end. But my mind, if my mind is open to the questions, then um, every time, it's like it's like magic. It's like a miracle, it's like the secret to life. It's just it's just all there. It's all there, a few minders and it's just a matter of authentically answering four questions. Do you find that the work is

still useful with varying degrees of open mindedness? That's not a bad thing, you know, it's not allowing yourself to be fooled. And I, you know, I have that same. I'm a skeptic, so say I was saying, well, I'm not willing you know, I'm not quite at the place where I believe that everything is a dream. But I do believe that a lot of the thoughts that I have about what's going on in my life and around me are thoughts that are um either a not true or be probably caused me and the people around me

a lot of pain. It seems like there's still a lot of benefit in this more formal method of interrogating my thoughts. It's a very powerful thing. Just four questions and then um, just being open to opposites and done. You had a quote that I thought was an interesting one where in one of your talks you said something to the extent of that, you know, all guilt is suffering.

And I thought about that for a minute, and then I thought, but I also, isn't guilt sometimes a way of knowing that a thought that's useful to us in understanding that maybe we're not living according to the things we value. And so how do how do those two how do those two coincide in your mind? If I'm feeling guilty on it's like an like in in to my way of thinking. It's like an ancient, ancient, ancient, on mechanical way of of pushing myself to be good, okay,

and it it hurts. And if I question what I'm believing, I find myself just doing good. In other words, I began to question what I was believing, question my thoughts, and smoking, quit me, anger, quit me. It's just the effect of right mind. So I saw clearly that guilt isn't necessary, that there is another way, but it is necessary until we find until we find another way. So in that case, I'm feeling guilty about something, and I can say, all right, I feel guilty because I did X, Y,

and Z, and then the question is is that true? Well, actually, in that case, I would just get very still, and I'd noticed the situation. I'm feeling guilty over maybe someone hurt me, and and I lashed out because it wasn't fair, it wasn't right, and I lashed out. And it doesn't matter whether I was right or wrong. When I lash out at another human being, then I am going to feel guilt cause and effect. Okay, So I lash out

of another human being, I feel that guilt. So I go to that situation and I identify on a Judge of Neighbor worksheet what I was thinking and believing in that situation. So when I question those thoughts on the Judge of Neighbor worksheet, it changes everything, radically changes everything. So the Judge your Neighbor Worksheet, which is a great title by the way, it's both funny and and uh

interested at the same time. So that's a little bit different than do I do I write down what I'm thinking and believing and then run that through the four questions. Is that kind of how that works? Is that a slightly separate process. That's one way of doing it. But you question that, and then you have all these other things you were believing on top of it. Well, actually, let's say they're below it because you're clear about what you quest and and then this, there's this I call

it the underworld. So you have this whole underworld. So you realize your error. Here you've done one concept and this whole thing, this underworld here will override that wisdom that you got in touch with. But on the Judge your Neighbor worksheet, you have the whole story. You have the thing you were going to question, and you have all the thoughts that we're holding it up, keeping it in place, and so then we start working through potentially

each of those thoughts individually. Is this thought true? You know? I do? I know it's true? Uh huh? And how do you react when you believe the thought? To me, it seems to boil down to I believe in questioning our thoughts, it's very important. And this is just a very formal method al I mean maybe very formal is the wrong word, but a structured methodology in which to do that, so that I kind of it leads me around those thoughts kind of on all angles eventually see

all the various things that are there. Yeah, and you know, I refer to it as checkmate. It's un it's all there, it's all there, it's all there. It's a it's a rap for the mind, nothing missing, and it's um. It's so simple. Anyone can do it if their mind is open to it. And it's not something anyone has to do. You know, to be alone with ourselves is not an easy thing to do, and it's it's kind of new. And we're coming through it through um through mindfulness practice

and the practice of of getting still. And for me to get still in one of these questions. You might contemplate that for three or four days, just that one question, and just you know, walk around with it, and notice how I react when I believe the thought, and then consider that conversation, and then other conversations will come in, maybe converse stations where someone thought you could do better at school, but you're just is it true? Experiencing is

it true? So it's not um and then and then noticing how you react when you believe the thought over period a week, a month. You know, there's no hurry here. Suffering is suffering until it's not. There's no shortage of it, no shortage, so we proceed through it. Right, So the first question is is it true? And if I contemplate that for a while and I go, yeah, I do think that's true, then I'm onto I sort of question again, how do I really know? You know? Am I absolutely sure? Yeah?

And then if the answer is still yes, that's okay. Right, you just moved to the third question. Notice how you react when you believe that thought in that situation and that was troublesome for you? And then the fourth question, who would you be in that same situation without the thought? And then you just witness yourself and that other person or those people you just witness without the thought, and it's amazing to see yourself in that position. Compassion replaces frustration,

anything that throws us off balance. And then the turnarounds are there. Set turnarounds. So one of them was, um, you know, if I say he's not doing well enough. The other one would be he is doing well enough, yes, And then you contemplate what does that mean to you.

Then you'll have a list, maybe just one thing on the list, maybe five or six things on the list, but then you can have a conversation with them, you know, on sweetheart, I had the thought you weren't doing well enough in school, and then I've got a list here where you are doing well enough in school. And I'd like to talk about the areas that I've missed your personal experience where you really feel you're doing well enough in school. And this is where the our children enlighten us.

And if we're doing it not on one of our children, but on a friend or someone we even perceived as an enemy, it all starts shifting. We see it so differently because we're being informed. We've got information that we have been overlooking or actually didn't have. So our children are are there. Really, When they trust us, they'll start giving us pieces of their life that we had no way of of of understanding or even knowing that that they were doing that. Well, they'll give us a list

if they trust us. And so this isn't a This isn't an exercise and positive thinking. This is an exercise and understanding what I really deeply believe and how those beliefs are influencing the way I see an act in the world. Yeah, this is the real deal. We cannot fool ourselves, and we know no matter how we try to convince ourselves something that's true. Stress guilt, let's us know that we're out of our integrity and that's not Again, that's not right or wrong. It's just how the mind

works and how the body mirrors set back. Here's a question for you that listeners of the show will know. I offer often. I'm just interested in seeing it through the lens that you have. So we talked about we have an emotion, right, and there seems to be a couple of responses to that. One response is to kind of roll around in it and live in it and feel sorry for ourselves and just really feel all of

it um. And then the other is to sort of just try and find some way to make it go away, whether we simply um, whether we drown it in say a very overt way like alcohol, or we repress it in some other way which says like, oh, all is well with the world. Everything happens for a reason, you know, and which is sort of you know, there's still there's still a repression element there. How would you answer that question?

How do you find the right balance there? When I experience emotions, let's say the ones you describe and as I as I understood it. So I experienced those emotions, and I want to honor those emotions. I don't want them. I don't want to addict them away, in other words, chocolate, cake them away, smoke them away, alcohol them it's it's it shifts the focus, but the problem is still there and and and that's the cause, is what I'm thinking and believing in the moment, that it's what brings on

the stress. So I opened my mind and experience to the emotions and feel them as I contemplate that moment in time and identify what I was thinking and believing and then I write it on paper because my mind will talk me out of it later. So I I put those identified thoughts down and then I question them, and I can take all the time in the world to question them. And I have amazing certified facilitators there their experience. They have really done their work, and they're

on the work dot com as well. But how to do the work is from start to finish is free at the work dot Com. And it's just, you know, the suffering in my life was so great I just kind of it became so great that I just kind of popped out of it. And in that moment in time, I saw that when I believed my thoughts, I suffered, but when I questioned them, I didn't suffer. And I've come to see that this is true for every human being. So you know, it belongs to everyone, and there it is,

and we don't have to use it. It's just one of the many amazing things we have in the world today to find peace. Are there times that doing the work makes sense and other times where maybe it's not the right time to do it. And where I'm kind of going with that is it's easy. Sometimes I'll find myself and you know, I know a lot of listeners get into this where you know, the term is rumination. Right,

I'm stuck in this thought pattern. And on one hand, it seems like the work is a great way to break that thought pattern by i'm i'm, I'm interrupting it. Are there times where you're just you're just too far down in the in the swirl that it's better to get out of the swirl and then approach the work from a clearer place. Sure, yeah, it's just you know, we just wait until we can just get through it enough to go back and take a take another look

at it and filling that judge of Neighbor worksheet. But you know when when when I believe my thoughts, they I strike out at me or you, and then I feel guilty about that. And let's say I strike out at you. My mind just tears you to shreds. It doesn't matter if you're on the other side of the world distance wise, business over here, and I'm just attacking you.

And then when the mind, the ego has done all it can do in that attack, it's got to stay identified as as I am, I am right, I am okay, So then it comes back and attacks me for attacking you. And then the addiction happens because it's gone as far as it can in both directions, let's say, and then it sees an image of that chocolate cake or that

that drink, whatever it is. It sees an image. And and if you think of a lemon right now, like biting into like right now, imagine biting into a big, juicy lemon, and notice what happened physically, So you felt it and and it actually shifted the experience in your mouth, your body physically, and you didn't eat a limit, you didn't bite into it. So that's the power of mind. So for an alcoholic, if they see an image like I've attacked you, then I attacked me for attacking you,

the mind has gone as far as it could. The lemon appears, in other words, the glass of alcohol. And if I'm an alcoholic, I just had my first drink because the effect is just like the lemon. Ye, So now I've had the first drink, and it shows me where the drink is. I saw it. It's in the cupboard, or it's in the refrigerator, or it's in the in the market. I saw where it is, and I saw me going there boom, just like that. In my mind's eye, it was all there. It's how I react when I

believe that thought, when the mind starts attacking. Then we live it out in the world where at that point where really we really are sleep walking, and it's a hard it can be, it's a oh my goodness, it's a rough way to go. And and it's the same thing, the same it's the same way strike out of our children. It's how we react when we believe the thought or our spouse or you know, the people we love most in the world. Well, Katie, this has been very helpful.

I really appreciate you taking the time. I'll have links in the show notes to uh. It's easy to remember though the work dot com and our listeners can go out and take a look at all that if they're if they're interested. Is there any last thing you'd want to say as we kind of wrap up, Oh, just gratitude and on and that's suffering is optional, and that what we believe our thoughts, we suffer and when we question them, we don't. That brings me to another question.

So we're not quite done. I've been making the distinction and I think I've learned it probably from some Buddhist tradition between pain and suffering. So pain is I break my arm and it hurts, and that's just you know, it hurts. But the suffering is what I layer on top of that, what I tell myself about, oh I'll never be able to you know, throw a ball right, or I'm such an idiot because I did that. Is that. What you're getting at here, too, is that there's certain

pain that is that we is not going away. It's just that we minimize the suffering that we put on topic. Well, when you take care of the suffering. I worked with a woman yesterday on on a live webcam. She was in pain constantly, constantly, so we questioned it and she was not in paying constantly. And then I got on an email from her following that that she's just amazed at the freedom she's got. She thought she was in paying constantly and she's laughing about it now. But that's

like the limit again, when we believe it, it it is excellent. Well, thank you again for taking the time. I really appreciate it. This has been a fun conversation. Thank you for UM for being with so many people on supporting them in life's worth living. It's important, all right. Thank you, take care, Thank you, Eric, you too. You can learn more about this podcast and Byron Katie at one you feed dot net slash Katie