Brandi Lust on Growth via the Present Moment

you can listen to them in your podcast player. At the ten dollar level, you get all the bonus content of the post show conversations that I have with guests, and those are often every bit as good as the episode itself. And coming soon will be a new format, weekly mini episode that will have a teaching It will have a piece of poetry that I love as well as a song I love, and we'll see what else gets put in there. But that's at the ten dollar level.

So again, if the show is important to you, we need your support today when you feed dot net slash support again, when you feed dot net slash support, and for those of you who are supporting the show. Thank you for sponsoring this episode. If I'm in this space and I see this thing happening again, what am I going to do differently this time? Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out,

or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent and creative effort to make a life

worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Hey everybody, it's Chris and we have a fun one for you today. Because this was recorded live at the Columbus Podcast Festival, so it will sound live, that will have all the energy of liveness, liveliness, will

say liveliness. The interviews with Brandy Lust, who is the founder of Learning Lab Consulting, which is a company that seeks to improve the quality of life and performance of individuals and organizations seeking to grow in a more mindful, connected and creative manner. Her book is Myths of Being Human. Four Paths to Connect with What Matters, And of course you can go to the show notes and there's a link there to buy the book and you do help the One You Feed podcast when you buy books through

that link. And here's the interview with Brandy Lust. Hi. Brandy, welcome to the show. Hi, thanks for having me. Um. We'll discuss your book, The Myths of Being Human, Four Paths to Connect with What Matters in a minute. But let's start the show like we normally do with the parable. There's a grandmother who's talking with her granddaughter and she says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that

are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. The granddaughter stops and she thinks about it for a second. She looks up at her grandmother and she's a grandmother. Which one wins? And the grandmother says, the one you Feed so I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

I've been thinking of the bad wolf as just generally and distraction, anything that is distracting from the current moment that I'm in, and the good Wolf is focus. And so I think if I can stay in a place where I am in this moment and I'm operating from a sense of stillness, than the idea of something being right or wrong is less important to me in the moral sense, because I have a deeper sense of what's

right for this particular moment. Your notes aren't coming up that I took, so we're gonna have to wing this, Okay, no problem. I wanted to start off though your book really does. There's four things in the book. You talk about four myths that we have as people, and then four paths to take towards a better life. So let's start with a couple of the myths, and then I think those might lead us into the paths. And the first one is the myth is that we are rational

creatures that we make. This is based on our mind, and that's primarily what we are. And emotions just kind of come along for the ride, and what you say, the reality is is that that's not really true, that we are primarily emotional creatures, that our emotions are in fact behind a lot of the decision making that we make, and oftentimes our reason kind of comes in after that to justify or to give give a logical reason for

what we've chosen to do. So that's really interesting because I think it connects with what I was saying uh in the beginning, which is that we inside of our actual bodies, not our minds, we do have this quiet place that we can move from, and if we are only focusing on the thoughts that we're having, we're not even able to connect with that. So I think, UM, some of the research that's really interesting to think about with this is the trauma based research about how we

can become disconnected from our bodies. But so we hold hurt inside of our bodies that UM, it's a place that is active in our daily experiences in ways that we aren't even aware and that we act through UM. But when we're when we're only paying attention to this one part of our experience, we completely shut off from the rest of what's happening. So I would even go further and say it's not even that we're emotional beings, but instead that we're feeling beings. And what I mean

by that is we have sensations. So rather than thinking about anger, we have a sensation of our face burning, or we have a sensation of sickness in our gut, and that that stuff that's going on is really the thing that we can listen to that's going to tell us more about what we need to know in any given moment, rather than operating from our heads, which is just us trying to interpret all of the stuff that's going on in our bodies on a moment to moment basis.

You reference to Massio, Is that how you say it? I think we've actually got an interview with him coming up in the future, but you talk a little bit about the research that he's done. It really shows the

importance of feeling. And his latest book, he talks about the idea that what we just described as feeling, which you use a sensation or a general like or don't like sort of thing that happens, and he's sort of tying that back how far back that goes evolutionary way back before you know, back and when you start getting into multi cell organisms, how that general sense of sensation and feeling is what derives most every creature, you know,

what I think is really interesting. So when you think about mystical experiences and like where they occur in the brain, it's the part of the brain that's not, uh, the prefrontal cortex, which is the more new part of the rain, right, So this is just a random thing that I'm thinking about. Other creatures don't have that same developed sense of their brain.

So what is it like for them to go through daily experiences and are they more connected with that sensory experience of a you know, being connected to what's around them, but also be being more physically reactive to what's happening in the moment. So we cognitively are trying to grasp with what's happening in the moment. But I wonder if we were another type of creature, if we would have

a totally different experience of that. And I think when you were talking about the even like single celled organisms have those physical sensations, It just makes me wonder what those experiences are like. Yeah, there's a thousand different directions to go with that. My dogs experienced the world in a very very different way, um, which does seem to

be a lot more present. What that brings me to, though, is interesting because we are, as far as we know, the most evolved species, and so can you talk about the prefrontal cortex? Right? Prefrontal cortex is the reason that we can sit here and have a conversation. It's the reason that microphones exists, and buildings exist and all that

stuff that humans have that no one else does. But it makes me think of how someone once said, you know, um, evolution has been remarkable for our ability to survive and

the things that it has wired into us. The way that we react to the world has been why we are the species we are, and yet it's not really well designed for what we would consider happiness or contentment, because the basic evolutionary drive is survival and survival as things like eat and reproduce, and you know, so it's our nature to be discontent if I eat and then I'm like, well that's good, I'm done. Right. If I don't get a desire to eat again, I'm going to perish.

And so you have this drive that comes out evolutionary wise to keep us constantly wanting and moving forward, and that you have these wisdom traditions or even certain branches of modern psychology that say, hey, you know what, it's that wanting all of the time. It's that always thinking you need the next thing that causes you to suffer

and be unhappy. And I just always find that to be a fascinating paradox because I don't think the answer is you roll yourself back to an animal, yeah right, But I also don't think the end of the story is you live here in your prefrontal cortex. And so it's always interesting what does that mean for us in how we live our lives. I think we have this really unique capacity to be a part of the creative process in a way that other species don't. So I mean that in you know, the very physical way like

we create things. But then I also mean that in regards a band called two Cow Garage that I assumed was cows making good music. But I could be wrong about that. Yeah maybe, but maybe it's a miraculous thing that I just need to learn more about. That's a Columbus band, you know, shout Columbus um. The ability to create, I think, in tandem with the universe is maybe unique to humans in the capacity that we have within our brains.

I think what I mean by that is we have a choice for how to engage the world in a way that's very different than other creatures have. And with that decision, you can almost have a conversation with the moment that you're in if you're able to completely feel into that present moment and act from it, and that's

very different than desiring something in the future. If you're able to fully be present in the moment that you're in right now and get a sense of rightness for what is called for in that moment, that becomes the point of desire, that rightness that you feel when you're doing the thing that you need to be doing in that moment, And then of course you can be offered

on target. I guess with that right you can fall in and out of that understanding, but it provides a completely different frame than the frame of success or prestige or ego or any of those things. And so that reframing has been really helpful for me. It's not that I don't still get caught up in you know, like I just wrote this book, it's never enough people right who are going to read this book at this point, right right, Um, it's never going to be enough people.

And yet, if I can pull myself back into the moment that I'm in right now, what really actually matters, and what I know matters, like in myself, is having an authentic conversation with you in this moment, in being here, and so that has become the thing that's driven me, not looking for what I'm going to get out of the experience, right. I think that I talked about it on the on the show. Sometimes listeners have heard this idea of it's never enough, whatever that thing is. If

you're if your metric is external, it's never enough. Right Like if when I started this show, if you said to me you're going to have X number of listeners, I would have thrown a week long party, right Like. I would have been like, that's no way, never gonna happen. Right, But I can. I'm perfectly capable of looking at where I'm at and going it's not enough anymore. How do I get more? And so what I always find is

that we talk a lot about motivation. Um, intention is a word people use, and so for me, when I find myself in that spot, it's important to go back to what's the underlying motivation for why I'm doing this.

I would say, again, though that's cognitive, like you're still dealing with it on this like level of Now, I'm going to have a thought about, like, what's really important in this moment I am really interested in right now is actually sinking into the experience of the moment and like being in that place where it's operating from a completely different space than the space in our minds or even like the space in our chat It's like this a morphous kind of idea that if I can really

be in this conversation, like I have a sense of rightness in that moment. Well, I think what you're describing to some extent is the date of maybe flow. You hear it referred to a lot of ways flow, egolessness, um. But what it is is I think those moments and that being present to the moment and what's really happening is to some degree a loss of myself and what

I want being the primary driver of what's happening. I'm operating at a deeper level, and one of the things that I'm always intrigued by is the inner play of emotions, thoughts, and behavior because they are so intimately connected. And I used to think, like, what does a thought cause an emotion or does an emotion cause a thought? And I'm like, well, both right, and and even what you're talking about this dropping into a direct experience, there's the emotional piece around it,

there is a cognitive piece, there's the behavior. And I just always think it's really interesting how we work with those different things, which is why I think on the show we focus so much on behavior, and so much of your book has things you do, things you do. You know the classic phrase I use over and over as you can't think your way into right action. Sometimes you have to act your way into right thinking. And and your book is so focused on doing and and

I find that the behavior. The reason behavior is so important is because I feel like it's a lever that I can use to move thoughts and emotions where I can't really particularly emotions, I can't grab them directly. Yeah, I think you're right about that. So from my personal experience, I would definitely say that there are tools that I use on a daily basis to help myself myself stay in that place of I'm going to operate from this moment.

So for sure, daily mindfulness practice, uh, limiting the amount to which I'm on social media, particularly if it's anything that I can check alis or stats of any kind, um, you know, not checking my email when my kids are home, taking long walks outside. All of those behaviors connect with how I am able to operate from that place. So

I think you're absolutely right. I would also say that sometimes we just have these moments of revelation that are totally outside of our control and can give us this other level of understanding of who we actually are. I guess. And so when I'm talking about like operating from a place of rightness, I'm talking about like who am I actually and how do I express that in and authentic

way in this conversation? And so, yeah, who are you really? Uh, that's a really good question, said that sort of flip, but it's also a serious question. Like when you say when I you know, when I act from who I am? I'm just curious what does that mean for me? What it means is I'll talk about it on multiple levels. The first level that I would say is the experiential, like what's happening right now, right now? Who I am?

Feels like a cool, centered, empty ball. That's what it feels like like in my gut, That's what it feels like. That's where I feel like I'm operating from in this moment. On another level, I am my grandmother's granddaughter, and I am living her legacy every single day. I'm my mother's daughter. You know, I'm incredibly grounded in the place that I'm coming from. And that is true also, if that makes sense. Yep, Well, I relate with that. You and I were talking earlier.

And there's been a number of challenges in my life over the last year. I mean lots of different things, you know, Alzheimer's diagnosis, for relatives, falls and hips, you know, putting to sleep too, doll. I mean, the list goes on, right, And yet throughout all that, I really have felt I think what you said about this centered. I don't feel like anything is wrong, and I think the things that are happening are are tragic in some cases and sad and but not wrong. And I feel very in a

good place. And we were saying before, I was saying that's kind of a testament for me to all this stuff, all this personal development crap that we all do is the testament is really does it serve us in times when it's difficult. It's very easy to be present. It's very easy to talk about being present. It's very easy

to do all that stuff when life is agreeable. When life is disagreeable, that at least for me, that's kind of the test And I oftentimes think, you know, I say this somewhat jokingly, but I think sometimes the best we can do with some of this stuff is not make it worse. You know that a lot of this stuff I've learned, call it spiritually or whatever, is just that, like, Okay, someone close to me has been diagnosed with Alzheimer's, right, There's a lot that comes with it. There's emotions, there's

all this stuff. What I've gotten better at doing is not making it worse by you know, we say shooting the second arrow, right, I don't suddenly go into it's not fair, why me? This shouldn't be happening, you know, all the other stuff. And so I just sometimes think that's what a lot of this can do for us too, is it doesn't I think some people look towards spirituality or personal development as a place where I'm just not going to feel pain anymore, it's going to be disappointing

if that's what we're looking for. If we're looking for, though, a place to stay calm in the midst of a storm, this stuff is very useful. I would add a yes and to that, because I've had the stand mix keep wanting to throw a butt in there. I see it, You're you're going, however, and but I know you can see it. I think yeah, because you know, I think suffering has this really important place on the spiritual journey.

And yes, I know what you mean about operating from when you're in the midst of struggle, having that center that you can go back to you But I think for so many people, in order to get to that place, you go through this place that is like literal I shouldn't say literal, it feels so much like hell, you know. And so I think that that can be a pathway. And I think it's probably going to happen again to me. I think it's probably going to happen to you again.

And I have seen that even in the midst of success, I can have these incredible internal tumultuous storms that will just come up and then I have to sort of process through that and it doesn't feel calm at all, you know, And so I think that's part of it, is really not being in that calm space, but like

sometimes engaging with the storm that arrives. And even in regards to what I was talking about with trauma, you know, we we hold that stuff in our bodies, and there's a lot of studies even with epogenetics that past trauma, our parents trauma is still sort of in there. And I think as you begin to engage in this work, some of that stuff comes up and then you have to sort of work with it in this different way. How I handle it differently now is that I'm not afraid.

It used to be almost like I haven't thrown up physically since I was twenty one years old, and it's my worst fear. Just can't even imagine the idea of it. And that's what it's like. Before it's like I don't want to throw up. I don't want to throw up. Oh please, like don't let me throw up. And now it's kind of like I'm about to throw up everywhere. Like that's the difference. I think Calm is not the

word I probably would want to scribe. I mean, first I agree with you, any any degree of wisdom I have. I have gotten a difficult way by a great deal of suffering and just you know, lots and lots of mistakes. But I don't think it's I don't think calm is the word. It's a bigger sense of I'm okay, even when like my, let' let's talk about my dog passing away, right, I mean, I put, I mean, I love my Yes,

it's terrible. It's second one in a year, and so listeners are like, yeah, we've heard about the damn dog like the third time, but it's it's relevant to me because it's a it's a way of looking at this. And I cried like a baby like fifty times, right, So there was no shortage of pain, there was no avoiding the experience. It's just that there were not a

lot of stories about what that means. And some of what you were talking about in the beginning is this dropping into this experience of what's happening, And that's what this was. I'm in the experience of grief and sadness for the dog. But that's where I'm at and that's

what I am. That's what I mean by the suffering that we layer on top of it is all the things I tell myself about what that means, and all those stories that we use when we you know, with the dog, it could be the second one in a year. Why me? Why did he get cancer? He was too young? All that serves as a way to pull us out of the present moment and the feeling, and then that stuff doesn't get to get processed and go through us. And so I think we're saying the same thing, We're

just using slightly different words. And I like what you're saying because something I've been thinking about lately is the idea of emotional residue and how things can sort of hang on if you don't have, like we're talking about behaviors, if you don't have the thing that you do to reset yourself, you carry all that stuff around with you.

So I'm really bad at sports analogies, but I try to use this tennis analogy where between gay as you reset during a match and when you're in that position, there are lots of different things that you could do right. You could project into the future about what's going to happen. You could ruminate on something that you just did that was wrong. You can do all of that, or you can take a really deep breath and you can reset

and then move into the game. And they say that the highest performing athletes are the most efficient and productive at rest, particularly in these little chunks. So I think that behavioral piece is really important to maintaining what you're talking about. And I think the other thing that you said is so key, where it's like, can I feel all of what's happening in this moment in this moment, because then it's just gonna You're gonna be able to let it go. You're not creating all that stuff that

you have to carry around with you. I actually don't pay attention to any sports in the world. I just generally don't care except for Cleveland Cavaliers basketball. And I think it's wired to my son because when he was young, we watched you know, the games together. I love it and I think Lebron James maybe the best player ever. Where am I going with this this idea of rest. There was an article that came out several days ago about how Lebron James has learned how to rest while

he plays. He plays more minutes than anybody else than anyone and yet he's the most productive, the most effective, and he's learned to rest as he plays. It's just staggering. I mean, it's another level of genius there. But it's to your point. He's finding these small places to reset on the court. You know. You they say that they time people Miles Prower often he's in the top ten

slowest players except for these intense bursts. And so that made me think of that, and that story was on my mind and then staying current, I agree with you. I think the first time I learned to do this was when my first marriage fell apart, the mother of my son, and I was just devastated. I was devastated for a lot of reasons, but part of the devastation was I think I brought every failed romantic relationship that

I had had along with me into that moment. And so when some you know, when that happens, it's like, I'm not just sad about this thing, I'm sad about a thousand things. And that experience was the first time that I learned to just go into it and let the experience happen and be present. And I walked out of that feeling sort of clean, like okay, you know, or so with my this dog, right, I grieved the last dog enough that when this one went, that's what

I was grieving. I wasn't grieving that dog in my cat when I was seven. And you know, like, and I think that's the benefit of feeling what's here in the moment, what comes to us, allowing it to be and go into it, like you said, is because then it clears up and you're not dragging it through the

rest of your life with you. I think something else that I found is really helpful in regards to staying in the moment is like the revelation of habitual patterns that I've been living in for so long, and then it's like I can actually watch it happen like smack me in the face again and again, until I'm like, Okay, so I'm really here and seeing this, I'm not somewhere else, and I'm able to like engage with this thing that's been haunting me for fifteen years or whatever the case

may be, which isn't always fun, but then you have an opportunity to actually do something different in that moment rather than the thing that you've always done. And so that's something that's been really interesting that I've been working with lately is Okay, if I'm in this space and I see this thing happening again, what am I going to do differently this time that I didn't do last time? And how is that going to change the interaction that

I have with that person in our situation? Yeah, and if we have time, will circle back to mindfulness, because so much of what you're describing as a benefit of learning to be more mindful of you know, of doing that. But I want to change directions to a different myth. And this myth is that as humans, we should be happy. We should be content. That's our right, you know, pursuit

of happiness is our fundamental thing. So that we see happiness as the normal human condition, particularly in our society. I don't think they did that a few hundred years ago. I think a few hundred years ago they've been like, it sucks, man, it just sucks. But today's culture is very different for a lot of people, Like right, there are still people who live on survival level conditions and that's a different story. So to take that out. But you say the reality is that that's not true. Humans

do suffer, that's part of life. There isn't a normal human way to be and that's so important to me. I think that idea, and I think that one of the things that we've tried to do on the show is normalize the idea that, yes, you're gonna suffer. I don't even actually like the words suffer because I make a distinction. Yes, you're gonna have a lot of pain, Yes, crappy things are gonna happen. Yes, life is going to hand you your you know what, got to watch that

explicit marker for iTunes Um. They're very serious about it, and so normalizing that the fact that your life isn't going well and that you're in pain and things are happening, it's not personal. It's not a failure on your part. Not sometimes it's you know, you had a lot to do with it, right, But I'm talking more garden variety the pain. People around us grow old, they get sick, they die. The things around us we love they die, our friends come and go, our lover betrays this. I mean,

all this stuff happens. Not all the time, but it happens. And I love that you brought that up as a under Montal myth because I think one of the reasons that we do suffer. Part of the reason we suffer is because we think it shouldn't be happening, and the story we layer on it is I am a failure somehow because I'm feeling pain, and so I think at every turn it's just so helpful to remind people and

ourselves that that's not true. Absolutely, And I think, you know, I'm not saying anything new if I were to add on that. In today's society, that's exacerbated by the devices that we carry around with us seven like Fomo is for real for a lot of people, um and comparing mind and all of that sort of stuff. The thing that I love most I think about coming to the idea that pain and suffering is a natural part of the human experience, is that we can actually allow that

pain to transform us and to transform our experiences. And to be really honest, I don't know of a lot of other ways that are more effective to do it. You know, it would be great if the human narrative isn't walking along, things are kind of okay, a little bit dissatisfied. Oh, something really horrible happens. Everything is destroyed, And that's when I learned, you know, I I don't know why. That's the human story, but it's somehow is

it is for sure? And in your book you reference um a term multiple times that we don't hear very often. We hear it's opposite. We hear post traumatic stress disorder all the time, and it's real, right, and people suffer mightily from it. The thing we don't talk about very often is post traumatic growth. This idea that are suffering our experiences can lead to growth. And I'm what I'm fascinated by is what causes the difference? Again, I want to take the extremes of like being in war out

of it, but let's take something like a marriage fails. Right, Some people come out of that stronger better, They go into their next relationship and they're a better partner. They learned and they grew from it. Other people just become increasingly bitter and cynical. And I'm just fascinating, like, what is that difference that causes some people to do that and not? And I'll let you answer kind of some

of what what those differences are. And then the question under that is why are some of us able to do those things and others can't do those It's just fascinating, so a couple of things. UM. One is from the research that I've done, people are more able to come out of those experiences having grown if they were able to let go of how things were before that happened.

So if we try to hold on to what we had before, we're pretty much doomed because that thing is gone, and that creates a lot of longing, and it creates a lot of um, false sense of reality and all sorts of things. So I think that's one thing other things that I've seen in regards to research, you're more likely to experience post traumatic growth if you're able to make meaning from the experiences, which is within our capacity. We can make meaning from difficult experiences, which is why

the reframing tool is such a powerful tool. UM. Being able to go back and look and say, you know, my marriage almost ended, I lost someone that I loved, or you know, I went through this other really difficult thing, and what came out of that? What did I What

did I learn? Um? And not in a trite, contrived kind of way, but in every experience that we might categorize this quote unquote bad, we're also given the opportunity to get these gifts and so being able to make meaning, I think is another quality that increases the likelihood of post traumatic growth. And then also from the research, folks who have some sort of belief system of something larger than themselves, they are more likely to experience post traumatic growth.

And I think it can be lots of different things. Something larger than ourselves can be our family, it can be being part of the human species, it can be a higher power, whatever the case may be. But all of those qualities make it more likely that someone will have that experience. And I think I don't know for me personally, this is just going back to my own story. I think that I had the experience that I had

because there was a frame for it before it happened. So, you know, I am a huge fan of her tre Drawer and his book Falling Upward, and I had read his book a few years before I went through the devastating circumstances that I went through of you know, like I said, losing my grandma, who I had lived with

for three and a half years. She was basically my roommate in college while I was a single mother, and then my marriage almost ending at the same time, while I was in a job that was really unsatisfying being diagnosed with depression and anxiety, all of those things, as they sort of crashed down on me, almost gave me

no other choice but to figure something else out. So I had this frame of the following upward experience, which is basically just the idea that like you were going to get knocked on your you know what, I'll keep your non explicit tag in an explicit tag. They won't even air it in India at all, like literally, And

there's a lot of people in India. I don't think very many of them are listening to the show, but if you are, but they might be, yes, if you are to India right now, that's right, there's some of you. I know. Yeah, so um, you know, having the frame beforehand like this can happen to you. And I remember the quote that I was hanging onto you so hard was when he said, no part of you will want to go through this experience. And I had that where I was like someone to make this stop. I want

this to stop, and it wouldn't, and it couldn't. When you're dragged through an experience like that, all this stuff just starts falling off right and left, and the thing that's left is sometimes totally different than what you started with before any of that happened. But ironically it is the thing that got me to that place that we

were talking about, that like still quiet place. And what I think is so interesting now is I can see the pattern of how my whole life was sort of giving me all of the skills and all of the qualities that I needed to move forward into that next stage. I don't know when will release this, but last week we released the first of a two part interview with Audio Shanty, who's a spiritual teacher, and he said something in there that's right on target with what you said.

And he was like, anything that we can bring consciousness to, you can use the word awareness or whatever you want if it's very difficult, but we can remain conscious to it. And this is kind of like what you were saying. I have a frame to put this in right that allows it to be transformed. But the minute that we start going unconscious and we try and escape it, and there's so many different ways of escape right until there isn't um but that if we can do that, then

that leads to it being transformative. It's like you're going through it you're miserable in the middle of it. And I remember this back to talking about that divorce. It was I had discovered Pemma Children's book When Things Fall Apart, which was a life changer for me, And the essence of that book was simply, if I just had to summarize it, it it was dropped the storyline. So stop telling yourself all the things about this and just be in

the feeling let it happen. And so there was a level of consciousness that I brought to that that allowed me to go through that. And there was a there was a simultaneous like please anything, take this away from me, anything, and an hour later the sense like okay, like I'm working with this in a in a in a way. And I think the ability to deal with life's storms is just such a valuable thing to have a to deal with them gracefully and be to allow them to

change us. And I think the other thing you mentioned the book and you just mentioned now is why does it have to be that way? As humans? Um? Is there a way that we could grow without suffering? I use suffering a different context. So that's why I keep sort of backing off that word. But how do you

do that, what is what are the means? And you talk a little bit in the book about some possible ways to have that happen, So why don't you elaborate on what are some ways that we might be able to continue to grow and do it when we're doing well. First of all, I just want to say it's theoretical, because that wasn't the experience that I had. You know, I did sort of get dragged through all of those things.

And what I see in my work with others is that people want to have a more authentic experience with the moment, Like we live in this culture that is just starved for that. And if you're able to create a safe container for people to explore that further, I

think I have seen things happen for people. Um A really easy way that I talk about in the book is even something like gratitude, which you know, again could seem trite, and yet if in the moment we are able to actually perceive the reality of what is happening, it's hard to not be grateful. I think about so frequently that my body is made up of billions of atoms, hundreds of bodily systems, and they are all operating on the perfect level for me to be able to sit

here right now and have this conversation. I think David steinel Ross does a really good job of waking people up to gratitude. You know. It's one of those things where it's like you've gotta be smacked upside the head sometimes and just understand that we are so incredibly lucky. My son is doing a senior speech or I'm sorry, he did a senior speech last week for his class, and he talked about the actual statistical probability of one person being born who they are, and it's like a

crazy number. I can't remember what you said, but I want to say it like one and twenty three million, you know, just this really wild number. Yeah, so there's this like awe. I think is one of those things that can really just shake you up and awaken you to the real reality of being a human being alive in this moment. So I think that's a hopeful tool

to try to grapple with. And then I think the other thing is there are some folks who have studied post traumatic growth, and there is the idea of secondary post traumatic growth where maybe I can just sort of watch you go through this super hard experience and through empathy and compassion, have a sense of new understanding. And I think I saw that even happen for people in my life. When I was going through that devastating time.

There were people who were right there with me as much as they could possibly be present, and I think that changed them as well. I think one of the things that's effective about twelve step programs is you have that build in. You get sober, and you keep going back to these things and you see these people drag themselves in who are not and you go, oh my God, like, yes, all right, I will do more. What can I do to keep growing? Because that looks awful, you know, that

just looks terrible. I think the other piece of that is that I bought into for a long long time the suffering artist idea that in order to create art you had to be in a great deal of pain. And that's what what drove it um And there's some truth to that, right. Pain will cause you to at least will cause me. The guitar gets in my hand

a whole lot more, but in a different level. And I think looking at a lot of artists, there comes a point where you are creating and you are growing, and you're doing these things out of the joy of doing them. And also the I don't know what the right word is for this, but I think we said early on that humans are were we have a wired in us to move forward. Yeah, acting from that place,

I would go back to the word authenticity. There is a place, an artistic and creative place that you can act from where it feels just like an expression of who you are, which is the most joyful thing, and it doesn't necessarily have to come from pain. I wanted to connect with the other part that you said about a A. When I was in school for a year for counseling, one of our assignments was to go to ten A meetings, and I loved them because of the

exact thing that you're describing. People bring all their stuff and they just lay it out and say, here it is, take a look at it. You know, what do you think? And that doesn't happen very often in our world. And so when I had mentioned at the beginning this idea of how do we get people to maybe grow without all of this pain, I have seen that if you can create a container where people can really bring their stuff in in that way and they feel really safe

to do that. It is transformative on this different level, and it comes from this idea of human connection. Right, So one of the things that I'm really interested in, and this was incidental for me. So I started doing this work and I thought, like, this is all about wellness, this is all about personal growth. So that's the angle

that I took. And then I would go into these communities and I would work, and then I would hear these stories later of people are collaborating differently, people are treating each other differently, the teams are more effective, like all of these sorts of things. And so I came across this term psychological safety, which is the ability for

all team members, and I'm using that. I think in this context we can say community members because they're studying this for teams in a workspace, but I think it's community members can be their whole selves, that there's trust between members, there's a quality, everyone gets an equal chance to participate, and that there is some level of authenticity and communication. When all of that is present, individuals have this experience that is very hard to describe, but I

think a a does it. And what I'm hoping yeah, not always, but in its in its best in incarnations, yes, it does it beautifully. And what I am hoping is that the process that I have seen work in these communities can be worked through on an individual level, but also on a collaborative level using the book. That's what I want to create, that exp oriants of I can bring my whole self into this space, I can lay it down and that safety changes people in this almost

like magical way. It's really wild. Yeah, Parker Palmer is kind of the maestro at that type of thinking and has done so much. There's there's two things that come to mind, and then we're gonna need to wrap up in a minute. But one is that idea of safety. And you know, I do some work with some people, communication work, and the reality is you can't have a

good conversation with someone unless both people feel safe. And so if you're having a conversation that's emotional or stressful and it starts to get out of hand, it's like the only effective thing to do is stop, re establish safety, pick back up, because if you don't, the conversation is going to go nowhere. There is no chance of that being productive. If one or both people don't feel safe, and that's the problem in so many of our inner

personal relationships. We don't feel safe, and so the conversations we have with each other are just you know, barbaric sometimes. And and the last pieces your idea about community. I started this show with the idea that this was all about personal development and that meant things like meditation and going within and finding peace and being okay with everything

that's happening. And the surprise to me has been that, yes, that is certainly a huge part of the equation, but that it's the connection outside of us with other people that is equally powerful, healing and important. And I don't think I saw that, which is it's funny that I didn't see it because I lived it in a a. I knew that, but I didn't know it in my head.

But I've definitely found that to be the case. And I'm also very interested in that idea of how can we build communities of people that support and help each other that isn't necessarily based around something only like alcoholism, right like it it's not people that have one specific need that need us. Yea, everybody needs us. Every single person needs it. And I see it in my work.

Every day I go into a space and there isn't one person in that room who does not need to feel more connected with the people around them, who does not need to feel like they can be seen. And I think it's such an interesting conversation the combination of factors that create those environments, because it's possible to create them, and I see it all the time, and I'm like, how can we get more of this? Like how can we create these containers so that people can grow personally

but also really feel that sense of transcendence. So one last thing I want to add about this, um we look at Maslow's hierarchy. I'm from the world of education, and Maslow's hierarchy is like those basic safety needs and then we're moving up and the last level is, uh self personalization or I'm sorry, self actualization. Yes, right, So that's the myth that we live in, is that self

actualization is the top of that pyramid. And Maslow didn't even believe that crap, like when he died, self transcendence was at the top of the pyramid. And I think that's really the key is it doesn't matter what the larger thing is um being able to lose that sense of solitude creates a totally different experience of the world. Well, thank you, this has been fun. We could do it longer, but if they flashed a flashlight, I couldn't see it because the lights are so bright. But I know it's

about time. So um. Thank you everybody for coming, and Brandy, thank you so much for talking with me. Absolutely thanks for having me. Bye bye, Thank you. Yea. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a donation to the One You Feed podcast. Head over to one you Feed dot net slash support. The One You Feed podcast would like to sincerely thank our sponsors for supporting the show.