Anna David

our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life forth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Welcome

to the show. Our guest today is Anna David, American author, journalist, and television personality specializing in addiction and recovery as well as Relationships. She's the author of Party Girl, Bought, and Falling for Me. Anna was the sex and relationship expert on G four's Attack of the Show and has been featured on countless other TV programs. In two thousand thirteen, Anna launched after Party Chat, a website focused on addiction

and recovery. Let's hear the interview, recorded on location in Los Angeles, Ianna, Welcome to the show. So fun to be here, big fan of the podcast. Well, thank you. It's exciting to be here in person in your office in the special screening room in Los Angeles. So this is fun. Isn't this cool? Yeah? I really like we should give a shout out to we work this office

space because it's amazing. Is a really really cool space. Um. So, as you know, our podcast is based on the parable of Two Wolves, where there's an old grandfather telling a story and he says, in life, there's two wolves inside of this. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and love and joy, and the other's a bad wolf, which represents things like hatred and greed and fear.

And the grandson stops and he thinks and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins, and the grandfather says the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by just asking how that parable applies to you in the work you do and in your life. Oh, my god, does that parable? You know? I think before I got sober, I had no idea there were two wolves at all. Um. I simply only fed the bad wolf, and and things were

relatively good. I would say, you know, ignorance is bliss in youth, and so it wasn't so debilitating to feed the bad wolf. And then I got sober, and I was introduced to this idea that we actually have some

control over our own happiness. And that was a revelation to me that that our attitude was really everything that you know, my problem wasn't my circumstances, but my reactions to my circumstances, and so and so, UM, I think I sort of almost got high off of that idea that I could, of course, we didn't use the language feed the good wolf, but I could, UM, I could change my perception of things, and that um, and that it was my self obsession that was making me so unhappy.

And and so I got pretty good at feeding the good wolf. And then when you're sober a while, I think it gets harder. Uh. And and you know, the big thing I struggle with today, as we sort of have already discussed, is when I have sadness to process, am I feeding the bad wolf? Or am I dealing with what I need to deal with? That is definitely a challenging one that that line between genuine grief and

self pity blurs. And I liked what you said earlier this morning, because we tend to people in recovery, but people in general, we have a we still have a I think, and in recovering an addictive relationship to pain. I feel pain, so I must end it. I must not be doing something right. I must go work with the newcomer. I must walk some steps. I must. It's pain and I don't want it, so I'm gonna make it go away. And I think for me, a lot of it has been becoming more comfortable with that pain

and saying Okay, I can live with this. I don't need to make it go away. Yeah. I mean to me, alcoholism is I can to see on the way I feel. I'll do anything I can to change it. And that's how like the fun gets come in and people decide to drink. And the thing is I really relate to I can't stand this pain. I'll do anything I can to get rid of it. Um. I do feel that that's not only something that I am that's not gotten better.

The difference is I know it's temporary. I always know it's ephemeral, But that doesn't mean I think I have a very low tolerance for pain. Um. And I was recently talking to somebody about this. Um. You know, I know most people I know, they get depressed and they wallow in it and they binge, watch TV and they lie in bed and they eat, and I do not. The second pain happens, all I do is get active and you know, do everything I can to escape it

because I truly feel that it's more painful. Like if you guys were talking about the same pain I'm talking about, you wouldn't do that, right, you would. You would get the hell out because it's that bad. Yeah, I think pain and depression effect. It's it's weird the way it affects different people. Eftly, there's so many people that it is.

It's just the effort to do anything becomes overwhelming and they pretty much end up in bed We had Andrew Solomon on a couple of weeks ago, and he describes in his book The Noon Day Demon that he just really does a good job at describing how heavy everything gets. But I don't understand how people would would be able to stand it. Yeah, I agree, I agree with you that way. Do you have to get out of it?

I try really am hard. I mean I do my depression though when it comes, like when it's not not um episodic, like it's not because this thing happened, it's just it's sort of feels like it recurs. That is my I'm very mentally dull. I'm very but I've realized that. You know, I say, a depression hates and moving targets, right, get out and do some thing, because that's the best medicine for me for sure. Yeah yeah, um yeah, this

this thing I'm going through, it's just loss. It's not um and losses is not a bad kind of pain because it has an endpoint, right, and it's and it's it's it's about something real. Yeah yeah, And it's it's so different because I used to get depressed, and I would be so scared of that depression that I would not want to deal with, Oh I'm lonely. Oh I feel sad. So I would make up a huge story

in my head about, oh, I'm going to be alone forever. Oh, you know, because my brain would think that that was a more effective way of dealing with my loss or whatever it was than just dealing with it. And so now the big changes I deal with it. I touched the pain. I go, oh, I'm sad about this, but it's new for me. Like, that's not something I got right away when I got sober, right I. I think that's a that's a maturing process through recovery or personal

development or call it what you will. That being willing to it is the opposite of I'm going to change every feeling I have, and that, like we said to start it off, that point, that line of where that is is a really tricky one, which I think is why the serenity prayer resonates so strongly. It is the most seminal sort of thing I've ever heard, that oh, some things I can change and I should and other things I can't and I shouldn't. And how on earth

do I know? It is the tricky part? Well, and not to mention, you know, sometimes depression is awareness of changes we need to make in our lives, and it's process that it's morning. Oh, I've wasted all of this time not dealing with this, And that's very real, and that's very necessary because otherwise we just exist, you know, without making radical changes to our lives. And sometimes we need to. I agree, we do need that, absolutely need that pain or and that's what I always I do

wrestle with. And I think on the show we end up getting into some of these themes that have come up over and over again because I think they fascinate me. Are that one of them being sort of the surrendery prayer we just talked about, and when in life do you when in life do you go, this is the situation it is, and I'm going to accept it, And when in life do I need to try and change it? And that's how I'm just fascinated by how hard that

is to sort out. And one of the things that in the Andrew Solomon interview that in his book that he said that just hit me so clearly was that people who know they cannot change their circumstances there's no way it could be different, cope with them far better and because it's so much of I think this ties into another thing. I think a lot about it. I I think so much of what we go through is this the In Buddhism they call it the second arrow. So the first arrow is we got shot, and we've got

some pain, you've got some lost right. The second arrow is all the stories we tell ourselves about what that means. I shouldn't feel this way if I was really sober, as long as I would, I wouldn't be upset about this. I wouldn't. My life shouldn't be like this. My and that layer we put on top of everything is at least for me, what what the idea of suffering is

versus pain? Right exactly exactly, and it's and it's it's yeah, because a little self pity does come into pain, you know, because uh, you know, ego, Because my losses aren't death. It's something that I feel I played a big part in and so and so did I, you know, And it's like, oh I caused this um or maybe I didn't, you know, but I do think, um, we're you know, so many recovery lessons are about look at your part and don't blame the other. And so my natural instinct

is to think that I did it. Yep, I I have that too, to an extreme. I think the look at my part in it totally discount the other person's part. I think the other thing that has been that the extreme is and recover. They talk so much about. I don't remember what pages this page about acceptance is the answer to everything and for for what was the former

page for for? And I don't believe that's true. I mean, I actually don't believe that that is the truth, because that means it's I mean, you can get very philosophical about and say, well, you have to accept it and then you have to change it. But I'm altogether too willing sometimes in life to be like that. Screw it. I think that's good. I envy that. I don't think it is, though I don't think it always is. I

don't think. I mean it's the old you know, hammer is not the right tool for every job, or laying down like some of it is. Like I've got a kid, there are times I need to stand up and advocate on his behalf when it feels like it be easier to go I don't care, and so and I've had that's something that took me a long time going through recovery to even start to see that idea that that I was that I need. I needed to pay more

attention to the courage part of the serrity prayer. And I think there are other people have to pay a lot more attention to the acceptance part. And that one strikes me that way. And I happened to love that story in in the literature. Um, and acceptance is the answer because I need that, and um, you know, you know he goes on to say, you know, if I'm upset, I'm finding I'm finding trouble with God's world, and until I can find peace with that, I can't be happy.

And and so you know, I think it's interesting because it really speaks to me because that's what I really need. I don't it's not like, oh I'm so grageous, but I don't really struggle with the trying to change it. And that's and that's good. But a lot of a lot of your life is that is you were clearly one of your best attributes and probably one of your worst, right And that's the you know, you just I saw your gorgeous apartment and had you not had you just accepted.

Oh I never heard from them right. You never would have got it right. So the flip side would be, had you spent, you know, four months pasting the woman until she called the police on you, that would be an example of it's always that middle. Yeah, it is, it is. I do it. I think it's interesting. I've just been dealing with this a little bit. I do it because I think I can change the circumstances by

by uh trying, but trying harder. And it's interesting because these two losses I suffered were because I reached out thinking I could get the answer I wanted, and I got, in both cases the answer I did not want. And

I'm god, damn it, what you know? I'd rather know than no. But I hear it's better to know, and I know that it is one of the things that and we we started the podcast talking about I read an article you wrote where you reviewed the the book ending Addiction for Good and there was a line in there that you quoted that I absolutely love and thought was perfect for the podcast because I think it it talks about addicts, but I think it applies to everybody

and what we're talking about in the show. It says the addicts mind is negative. When it's unguarded, the idea has the power to change his thoughts whenever he'd like, how does that You want to talk a little bit more about what spoke to you in that line, Well, it's exactly what we've been talking about. You know. I think that that's true once you processed something. UM. I do think the the addicts mind is is focused on the negative. And that's where it's like, when is it

addiction and what is it depression? UM? What is it normal? Human? And when it is that human? Right? Yeah, because there's a lot of that I think. But you know, and I can only really speak for me. UM. I mean, and a lot of the friends I've had and and girls I've sponsored, UM where you know, we do go to the negative first and UM, and we do have

the ability. You know. The big revelation for me, one of the big revelations when I got sober was that, you know, I thought you'd get depressed and you're there for like maybe it's a year, maybe it's three years. And I remember having the experience of of feeling depressed in the morning and then changing my thoughts and feeling fine by the afternoon. I had never known that was possible. Um, but but it's just interesting that we're doing us when

I'm like sort of going going through it. I always want to do it when I'm not going through something, you know, whenever I'm asked to speaking of meaning, it's like always the time when I'm in the middle of a challenge. Well, that's the that's sort of the proof is in the putting of a spiritual way of life is how do you how do you handle it when

not perfect? Because it's pretty easy. I was talking with a friend of mine who I'm out here with and he's going through a through a heartbreak and he's sort of like I was, just I felt like I was totally open to whatever would happen. Like it's easy to be open to whatever will happen when the things that are happening are good. The minute they turn really bad, that's the when it's really challenging to Yeah, and his big thing is a little bit like we talked about,

adding that pain on top of pain. He feels like he shouldn't feel the way he does. Right, of course you should, right, heartbright everybody gets their heartbroken. It's a natural thing. It's unpleasant as hell. But you don't need to feel bad about yourself now. If you're having the same conversation and you're in the same place in six months, then maybe we need to evaluate, you know, should you be taken you know, should you be doing some things differently.

The thing I liked about that line, the addics mind is negative when unguarded, is that I think it applies to. It's the reason I started the podcast because my mind, you know, unguarded or left to its own devices, just is not focused on the things that end up bringing happiness. And I think that goes addicts are an extreme example of it, but I see it everywhere in our culture

because our culture isn't pointing us in that direction. And one of the best definitions I ever heard of spirituality was because it's a weird term, I don't even know what to do with it, but was that spirituality is simply the understanding that happiness doesn't come from outside things, and so that's not the message we get day to day. So the reason that I started the podcast and I like that line is that I just need to be reminded. I know how to do a lot of those things,

how to how to move into a better space. I just don't do. It doesn't occur to me, right. I can go days weeks believing that happiness really is this thing out there right right, It's not. I mean, societally, that's you know, the American way is acquire, whether it's material stuff or a family or mostly career. And you know, I was really raised in a family that believed that, and that was in our blood and um, and so

it is. It's a constant struggle for me to remember that it's not about that and um and that it's okay to want those things, right, but they can't feed us, right. They're perfectly natural things, and they there is pleasure in a lot of that stuff. It's just it's just if that's what you think the basis. And we were talking with Lewis how Is the other the day he talked about his dream had been to be an All American, and he's an All American. He's sitting at the ceremony.

He feels completely empty. Right. And I've had that experience of getting the thing that I thought I wanted. I worked so hard to get it, and I get it and it's kind of flat. And I realized that the time working towards it was the profound time. Well that's interesting because if if I think about this business that I built, it was horrible, building it horrible. I doubt the first six months were good, and then the second

six months I just thought, this is a disaster. Everything I've worked for has been and then I and then when I sold it, it's been so satisfied on every level. But I also think that's because, um, this this is my dream, you know, to be able to do this work around around you know, sharing a positive message around recovery and I and it was so hard that that the satisfaction of somebody seeing merit in it and paying

me to do it has been so sweet. I'm sure, and and it but it's not an endpoint, right It wasn't. It wasn't I got this thing you're I think, what if I hear you write A lot of what you're saying is the joy is in the fact that you get to keep doing it with more support. Yes, absolutely, absolutely so. Yeah, you could say I'm still in the building phase, so it is enjoyable. But I did want to say I'm ending Addiction for Good is an amazing book.

I'm a big fan of Richard Tate and Connie Sharp, who wrote that I've not read it, but based on the review you gave, it strikes a lot of things. I mean, I'm not a believer that like, oh, all you need is the twelve steps and you're good. I mean, I'm just not. I sometimes wonder. I sometimes wonder are we doing a disservice to people? Because there are mental, there are physical, There are a lot of different things

I think that are really important in recovering you. Just you can't even really find large talk about that stuff in in a lot of medians. Right, that's not in the book. Done right. Yeah, I think that. I don't know if it's l a sobriety or or what, but but I do think in meetings you you hear that, and I don't know if you even noticed that this morning that it was completely fine. You know, a friend of mine talked about she really needed outside stuff, she

really needed outside help because it's not enough. I think it can find enough. The fact that she has to qualify that and speak of it as if it's something special shows that there's a stigma against it, at least somewhere still in the culture. Yes, So I guess so I don't feel that stigma in L a. M. I think I did when I lived in New York. But but but I think that that it's completely it's it's

very accepted that I think the twelve steps can be enough. Um, if you don't have any trauma, Yeah, but I most alcoholics I now have trauma. Ye, there does seem to

be be a lot of that. Speaking of trauma, you you mentioned your childhood a little bit, and there was something you talked about in one of your books that I wanted to spend a couple of minutes talking about, and you said, Um, you sometimes think it's your duty to save or take care of people if they're the slightest bit uncomfortable or sad, and that leaves you believing that relationships are oppressive. Yeah. I mean I don't remember

writing that, but but I relate to it a lot. Um. I think because uh, you know, I grew up in the Staniley where my dad is very depressed and my mom was always trying to manage and control that, and I saw their relationship as tragic and as the last thing on earth I would ever want would be a marriage because look at what that looks like. And they didn't have a lot of friends, so I didn't see examples my formative years of any other way doing it.

And so and I think that that has been my big burden and challenge in life, is that I desperately want that now and I don't think I know how to get it because for so long it was not something I wanted, you know, in early you know, when I was much younger, I I had this amazing, loving relationship and I sort of thought, oh, who wants this? There's a whole life to go get right and I could have better, and you know, it turns out so

far that's not true. And and that's the constant heartbreak is that I had that and I don't know how to have it again. Yea, that that idea that there's something better out there is so painful. I mean, it's such a painful way to live. Yeah, it ends in so much pain. And I'm you know, I've written songs about it where it's just that idea, you know, the grass is always greener, and it's and it it keeps.

It's like being on the fence perpetually. And what I've realized is that that very placement of being on the fence effect. Like you said, it's sort of a self fulfilling prophecy. Prophecy, right, I'm not really in the situation bringing everything that I am, And yes, then it's probably not going to work because I'm not really there. Yeah. Yeah, I got my eye. I've got one of my eyes on the door the whole time to some degree. Yeah.

And I think mind comes from the fact that I always felt that my mom settled for my dad and I couldn't. I just sort of said, I'm never going to do that, and I'm going to be financially independent so that I don't have to do that. That's probably not a bad strategy. The last part of that, it's not a bad strategy. I mean, all of it is not a bad strategy, but it it certainly makes you start to doubt at a certain point if it was such a good strategy, right, if you don't have it yet. Right.

What I really liked about that part that we talked about, because it just it really it floored me. It's the best way I've ever heard anybody say it is that you always feel like I have to take care of the people that are around me and how they're feeling and That's why that experience can be so as you used oppressive to me. Why it feels like work, why it feels heavy, It's because I feel like I've got it. I'm always I'm on duty in some way. I'm on

duty to make sure you feel okay. And so of course I don't want to be on duty, which is why I want to run off of me by myself. Yeah, I mean I think mine is is this Uh, it's sort of not. It's just trying to it's controlling ultimately because I'm trying to make sure. I mean, mine manifests itself as sort of talking a lot because I it's my own discomfort too. But I also want to make sure, and I know comes from my childhood. I want to make sure because my dad is also silent, it doesn't speak.

And so the way to make sure everyone's okay is to take on that burden every time. Just do all the talking and do all the yeah, make sure everyone's comfortable and that and that's why, I mean, I think that was just a really profound insight. Um you had another thing that you talked about was your your comfort zone, and we talked a lot on the show about Um you know, comfort doesn't equal happiness. You kind of need

to get out of your comfort zone. But I loved what you said where you you talked about you hate for the reason that you get reason being outside your comfort zone is so hard is that you hate to see anybody seeing you try. Yeah, like that, if you're making an effort, you're you're exposed or you're vulnerable. Do you want to tell me more about this? Yes, because it even happened this morning, and it was when I

was trying to share and couldn't. I was like, I was humiliated that you were witnessing that, and it's so ridiculous. It's so ridiculous. But it's this this uh, this this fear of looking vulnerable right um is so real in me that I want everything to appear It's okay that you know I worked hard for something in the past, as long as you didn't have to see it. I

relate with that so much. It's like I can speak very candidly about all my emotional states when they're done and I figured out how to solve them, and I can tell you how wise I was applying these principles, but in the moment, I can't, I can't get there with another person. Hell no. And and also it's like I'm really clear about you know, I also not to

make this I saw pity at all. But one of the things that that was that my dad used to do is if I ever cried, he would always laugh, And then my mother, who was never used to seeing her depressed as and laugh, would laugh. And then my brother, who had never seen his parents be happy before, would laugh too. And so I know that's what it comes from. I'm I feel humiliated when I'm struggling and there are witnesses. Yeah,

that's a pretty awful thing to have happened. And I can see why, given the way you're dead, was everybody else sort of piled on, not out of any sort of meanness, but out of like, oh, hell, there's actually a light moment in this house. Well yeah, and it's kind of the thing we were just talking about about discomfort and then feeling like they had to um take care of my dad, because that was always the focus is make sure this guy's okay and also give him

free reign. You know, if if I have any reactions to sort of abuse from childhood, my mom will sort of say, well, but you're you know he's special. You know, you're not allowed to have feelings about that because he's not. Really he doesn't have the same ability to deal with the world that the normal people do, right. I think the thing about that that's is it doesn't mean it's

anybody's fault. It doesn't take away the fact that it has an impact on who we've become, regardless of whether they because you can look at anybody and find a reason why they do what they do, and they may be reasonable, but it doesn't change the end result of the impact it has on the person that's on the receiving end. And I don't think that's reasonable. I don't think there's any reason a lot, even mental illness to laugh at your kids. I would agree. I mean, I

hear things. I mean, my son is the most important thing in the world to me. I can't fathom. I mean, I just can't fathom. Also that the weird part is it doesn't mean I'm not important to my dad. My dad is like obsessed with me absolutely, So you know that's the part where you know he didn't intend to damage me. Well, I think that's what mental illness or you know, addiction problems. I mean, the things that people do in those states are are awful and they don't

mean it. That's why we that's why we all like the idea to some degree of or why the concept of addiction is a disease is so helpful because we can I don't think we let ourselves off the hook with that, but it gives us a way to deal with some of the stuff we did that might be soul crushing. Otherwise, if you felt like this is who I am. Yeah, I'm a person that does that stuff. Yeah, yeah, and it's but it's tough if somebody is not ever willing to acknowledge that, um and change, it is tough.

Do you think that if your if your dad did get better and acknowledge it, that that would make a difference in how you react to life? Or do you feel like those patterns at this point are pretty deeply conditioned and it's your job to decondition them both because I think that it's not that it would change, you know, my reactions. I believe everything important happens between zero and seven, and we spend eight to the rest of our lives

trying to undo that damage. If there was damage, um, So I don't know that being said, I've you know, grown and my reactions and things that's gotten better. But it would certainly change my relationship with him and with the rest of my family, because you know, I don't have a relationship with him because it's not because I'm angry. It's because he doesn't know how to not abuse me. So it's not I'm not safe. I can't be re traumatized around him, right, Yeah, I absolutely would make a

big difference in your in your relationship. Yeah. One of the things that came up in the meeting we were at earlier, and you said in uh in the book, is you know, the familiar ache rises in me, the feeling that someone close to me is something I'm scared I'm not ever going to get. And in the meeting, they were talking a lot about comparing despair. Yeah, I've never heard that phrase. Never heard that phrase comparing despair. I've heard you know, don't compare your insides to somebody

else's outsides. But I've been thinking a lot about that concept lately, even before I heard it in that meeting, I was thinking about how poisonous that comparison is because and you can you can always look up at something you don't have it, and you can always look down at something you have that somebody else doesn't. But what I've realized is that neither of both those things do is keep me disconnected from people. So I'm just curious.

And you you were honest enough in the meeting to say, yeah, you still wrestle with that, any thoughts on how to wrestle with it? Yeah, I mean it's a big, big thing for me, and it used to be very focused on career and and it was really painful. Also I love my mother dearly, but she's so competitive with me, and so I really grew up believe you know. And and and you know, my dad was just like you've got to be the best. You've got to be the best.

And there was like he would bribe us to get good grades with them, he would never pay us, so

you know, so it was it was definitely yeah. Yeah, but and I think it's like also growing up like Jewish American, you know, they're this sort of past genetic history of we were oppressed, means we have to be the best and um, and so I I actually took steps to try to alleviate that in my career life because I saw every woman who was a writer as my competition, and I could never be happy for them, and all I ever saw with their successes was my failures.

And so I started this storytelling show specifically to deal with that, so that it was all women. They were all successful writers. I had five of them a month for two years, and I started to understand that their success was my success because I would want them they were in my show, I would want them to succeed, and when they did, and when they were quote unquote

better than me, it felt good. And um, it was amazing because it really cured that part of me it saw them as competition because especially you know, we're talking about the hell of writing books. Um, you know, anybody succeeding with a book in any way is a victory for us all because so few of us do. Um, and so many people outside of bookwriting, Thank you sold

the book. You must be how dare you complaining? And it's this sort of pain that only people who write books talk about because we can commiserate with each other because your publishers make you feel like such a failure. You know, you you're not writing fifty Shades of Gray, and you know most people don't read you. I think independent musicians can share the same pain. It's that that

is a top down model. It's like for every you know, for every Mariah Carey, there's a hundred bands tramp a thousand. But the one other thing I want to say about that, uh, is that you know, I don't compare myself to Hillary Clinton and feel bad. I compare myself to those who have what I seem to think I could get. And there's this I always wish I could find it. Someone once mentioned to me that Freud has a saying about that, like the comparison to the one near you or something

like that. I've googled and I cannot find it. So if you find it, tell me. But but you know, it's that's the that's where it really gets painful. And so by the fact that I don't compare myself to Hillary Clinton or Arianna Huffington's or whoever it is and feel inferior shows me that it's not about comparing. It's about jealousy, you know, it's about wanting you have specifically UH,

and and not about anything else. But you you you solved that by it sounds like I'm trying to think of what's the principle underneath what you did, because what you did was a pretty specific action, was actually connecting with those people, building a real connection with them. It was building and it was it was making it so that their success was my success, and it kind of gave me this feeling of solidarity rather than this feeling

of alienation. And it was also rather than seeing them as getting stuff I couldn't get, I get to know them when we start talking and they're dealing with the same exact thing. And so those stories we make up in our head, um is you know, those are the lies? You know. Did you ever read Sumbling upon Happiness? You'd love it? I don't think. Well, I think I did, but I don't remember a lot of it. That's my

favorite book about happiness is that Dan Gilbert. I think so I can't remember their name is always on the same these guys who write these happiness books. But but it was about the thing that I remember is is basically just comparing our inside to other people's outsides. We never, um,

we can't see the full picture. And it's interesting we're talking about a handicapped friend because he specifically uses that we look the general public looks at someone who's handicapped and says, oh my god, their life must be so tragic. I can't imagine because we are not inside their life feeling joy about certain things, and and um and and the full breadth. And that's that's always true. As we can make up these stories about how perfect someone's life is,

but you know, life deals everybody paying. Yeah. That was one of the remarkable things about Andrew Solomon's latest book, Far from the Tree, because it's about parents of children who have heat exceptional, whether that exceptional will be down syndrome or autism, or being a genius or being a criminal.

And but what he fought The theme he seems to tie together through all that is that a lot of those people have really wonderful lives, and it's about their decision to embrace that life and and uh and that they all go through some degree of I wish my life looked like that, but they by inhabiting their own life deeply, they're able to find meaning and happiness within it.

But then, aren't you saying, then and acceptance is the answer to all my problems today, A sort of because But what's interesting is that and Andrew and I talked about this was this is where the line the people who whose situations are unchangeable end up being the happiest. And he says, so, he says, obviously, if you have a situation that you can easily change, you do that. And if you have a situation you know you can't change,

you don't. And that whole gray area in between is where the sort of struggle, you know, the wisdom point is. I do think acceptance is the answer to a lot of things. I think it's a middle ground. I mean, I think that's why the serenity prayer is so powerful. Is it says, Look, these are two these are the two states. You can't have one or the other. You need both and you got to figure out that wisdom. And I just keep hoping somebody's gonna be able to

give me that wisdom. And you know, one simple trick to you know, it's not it's not out there. You know, it's just not it's just not out there. But it's a compelling question to me. Yeah yeah, And you know, ideally a sponsor of someone who can do that, yep, yep. And I think that's the taking it outside of just sponsorship. But that's or just recovery. That's the lure of the guru, of the spiritual teacher, the pastor the you know, sometimes it is really nice to have somebody say here's what

you should do. Yeah, because being an adult is freaking Can you believe it? Can you believe how how ill prepared most of us are for that? Yeah? Oh yeah, it is amazing. It's I'm sometimes amazed by how well people do in general, because if you really got But I hate to keep bringing up Andrew Solomon, but he talks for people who have depression, what they believe is

they're finally seeing the real world. They're seeing the you know, the veil has been pulled back, and there's all sorts of tests that say depressed people are far more capable of making good judgments in factual things. That's so awful, I know, I know. It's like they put them through this game where they're like they have to go play video game and kill lots of things or shoot things, and at the end they asked them how many things

do they think they killed? And the depressed people are usually pretty accurate, and the the happy, optimistic people are like, you know, off by a factor of six or something, Right, they're just delusional. But there's something to be said for that delusion. I mean, it's it's uh. I take it by the way I would tell you know, I have a friend we always talk about, you know, she has she has some friends who are who are sort of happy and don't wrestle with these feelings and and it's

just because they're not thinking about them. And how can we be those people? I would take it to I don't think it's in the cards for me at all. I just that's not the way I'm I'm I'm wired. Henry James William James m has you know, the varieties of religious experience, but he describes there's two kinds of people.

There's firstborn people. I may not be getting this exactly right, but they basically come out and they know how to be happy, and they know how to function in life, and they go on their way and there you would say, they're relatively shallow and because they don't have any need to not be, they just know how to live life.

And then there's the second born people, which is the people who come out and really are just the world's a you know, a clusterfuck to them, right, they don't know what to do, and they eventually find the thing that gives them the ability to cope with that, and they tend to be very um, they tend to be very thoughtful, they tend to be very but it's it's because they just had to. I'm definitely the ladder in that group too. I mean, there's just there's no doubt

about it. But that's said, I'm clearly a far better, more functioning version of that that ladder than I have been at different points in my life where you know, the bad wolf is totally running the show. Yeah, yeah, I definitely suffer from second child syndrome and um and you know, I guess you get to say, Okay, we've suffered, so we're deeper thinkers. Who cares. I don't need deep thoughts, right, all right, Well, I think we are about at the

end of our time. This has been fun. It's fun to sit in person, and it's one of the few times I've relied on my notes almost none at all, because he didn't know it's good. That's good. So thank you very much and thank you. We will talk soon. All right bye. You can learn more about this podcast and Anna David at one you feed dot net. Slash Anna