Alex Jamieson and Bob Gower on Conversations for Radical Alignment

hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us in our first ever episode with two interviewees at once, we have Alex Jamison and Bob Gower.

Alex Jamison is a holistic weight loss, nutrition and lifestyle coach that has appeared on Oprah, Martha Stewart, Living, CNN, Fox News, USA Today, and People Magazine. Bob Gower is a consultant who helps organizations become future ready and more effective. Bob has worked with leaders at organizations from multinationals like Chanel Ford and ge all the way to nonprofits like New York Public Radio and the Studio Museum in Harlem.

Alex and Bob are co authors of the new book Radical Alignment, How to Have Game Changing Conversations that will Transform your business and your life. Hi Alex and Hi Bob, Welcome to the show. Hi, Thanks thanks for having us. I think this might be the first time we've interviewed two people at the same time. I'm excited about that.

I think that's gonna be great. We're gonna talk about your book, which is called Radical Alignment, How to have game changing Conversations that will transform your business and your life. But before we get into that, we'll start, like we always do, with a parable. And in the parable, there is a husband talking to his wife. Can I adjust it that way? I'm gonna do it. There's a husband talking to his wife and he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always a battle.

One of them is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear, and the wife stops and she thinks about it for a second and looks at her husband, and she says, well, which one wins? And the husband says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you, guys, what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do.

You want me to start right, Yeah, I've been thinking about this question a lot because I knew it was coming, and well, we're big sci fi nerds in this family, and so we've been rewatching Buffy the Vampire Slayer Um from start to finish again and listening to a podcast. So that's kind of how dirty we're getting during the pandemic year. But the recent episode, or an episode in season one, is all about where people's fears become real.

You know. That's sort of that typical horror trope where someone's afraid of something they're afraid of clowns, and all of a sudden, clown with a knife is stalking them, you know, in real life, kind of the Freddy Krueger sort of thing. And one of the points of the episode is that our fears make us who we are, Like what we fear actually defines our character in some way.

And you know, we were talking about morning pages before we we got on here, and in my morning pages this morning, I began reliving some you know, childhood trauma again. You know, like this very specific episode that happened in my life that really, I think is one that has defined me or the thing that it represents has really

defined me for much of life. And so I guess when I think about this parable, I think that it's not just not feeding the fears, but it's also using the good parts of ourselves in some way to fight the fears, right, in order to overcome the fears. You know, our fears can define us in this sort of negative way, right, And I've definitely spent years in sort of addictive patterns

letting my fears run the show. But it was when I began to build the muscle to not just fight the fears but transform the fears that I feel like I actually became the person that I was meant to become. And so, you know, I don't see my fears as a bad thing. I just see them as a feature of my life that I get to choose how to react to. So that's what comes to mind for this, Um, we have a four well he turns fourteen tomorrow. I assume you mean a child, not Bob. A child, not

a dog or a cat. That's very old, fourteen year old human in the house. And when he was about six or seven, he it was diagnosed with dyslexia a d h D. And it wasn't the diagnosis that did this, but it was what was happening in class where he started to feel really stupid. He would come home from school, this little tiny kid, and say, I hate myself. I'm so dumb. I'm not as good as the other kids.

And I didn't know how to help him except say, oh my gosh, you're amazing and I love you and you're so great and this is you know, we're going to figure this out. I didn't know how to help him think his way different to a new place. And we came upon this positive psychology program for kids that taught them about how the human brain works, and it personifies worry and it personifies, you know, the part of

our brain that can help worry calm down. And it was so revelatory for me to learn about those parts of the brain and how we could engage with and care for that part of ourselves that's afraid. And I mean we got so into it. Bob and I both went back to school and God certified and applied positive psychology after because we realize, oh my gosh, this isn't just helping our kid. We need this and all of

our clients need this. And the more and more tools I got to help myself and other people think differently about you know, where my feeding the energy here. But I also I'm really a staunch advocate for acknowledging and honoring how you're feeling, like not just glossing over or as we like to call spiritual bypassing like you'll be fine, or focus on love and light and all the bad will go away. I think you really need to honor and name how you're feeling and what's going on. Is

there a cause of it? Is there a root issue that needs to be healed, and then what can we do to move forward? I love both those, and it jumps us ahead a little bit. But your book that we're going to talk about is about how to have good conversations, and you guys have outlined a four step method and the second of those methods is about articulating

your concerns or your fears. And you make a couple of points in there that I love, and we'll get to the method in a minute, but one of them is that we actually calm our nervous system when we speak our concerns out loud, you know. And then the second point that you may in there is one of my favorite points about this stuff, which is that when we get specific about what we're worried about, it transforms anxiety,

this free floating thing, into fear. And that when our fears are specific, there are a lot easier for us to deal with. There are a lot more manageable. You know. We tend to get into these things where like everybody's going to hate me, Well, who's everybody? Right? If you can start to define that. So I think that what you guys just said really ties closely to that second step in your overall process. Yeah, we tend to catastrophize. Actually, we've been going through an episode again with our son

this week around around schoolwork. You know, school is not easy at this time, and you know we're all I think we're all struggling a little bit with it. But it turns very quickly from I don't understand this too.

Oh my god, I'm not going to ever go outside again because you're going to hate me and ground me or you know whatever the cat you know, and I and listening to that, I recognize it in myself, you know, like that's exactly what I do at the times when I let fear overtake me or concern or anxiety overtake me. It's a morphous and non specific, but when I get really specific about it, it becomes a much more manageable problem. Yeah,

it's helped me so much. Well, I'm not going to say help because that's a judgment about whether or not I'm a good parent. It has definitely informed how I parent. I mean from such a young age. I probably picked this up from somebody much smarter than me. But they're like, don't try to teach your kids something while they're having a meltdown. Yes, like, if they're freaking out or sobbing, don't try to like explain something or ask them why

they did something like. The brain's not working at that point, so just be with them, sit with them, or give them quiet space to shop for a while. And then includes our inner children too, like it's such good advice for me adult inner children. Yeah, like, I'm not going to try to I'm just gonna soothe myself right now. I'm just gonna go for a bike ride or yeah, calm myself down in some way. You guys talk about that later on in the book, but you talk about

times not to have a conversation. So again, the book is I'm kind of jumping around here. The book is about how to have better conversations, meaningful conversations, and a lot of these better meaningful conversations are tough conversations. And you guys talk about you know, there's there's times that are good to have those, and there are early times that are not. Say a little more about that. Oh my gosh. I think the most important thing to remember

is that we are brains living in bodies. We're still animals. Like we're animals humans and we need to feel good and be in a good place physically to talk about things important. So if you're tired or hungry, or have had even one glass of alcohol, those are three bare minimum rules, like we don't talk about anything heavy or important, like nothing too late, nothing after eight pm gets discussed. We just wait until tomorrow. Yeah, anything after about two pm.

I've got this window from one thirty to two. If you want to catch me. You're not wrong. We've learned, and it's like it seems so simple, like oh my gosh, have you eaten? No, okay, let's eat and then we'll talk. That has saved us countless arguments. I think the book is still surprising to me and surprising to us, because you know, our work is not just this book, right. This book ties into the stuff we do, which is either about helping teams perform better or helping leaders become

better leaders and work with teams. So we're you know, we're coaches both for teams and and for and for leaders. And I think we both realized after a while that we had developed this tool that was really serving us.

You know, I mentioned that I have some history of trauma, and I think one place that really was serving us was when when I was dealing with my family, I would become a different kind of person, and I would become a kind of person that I didn't enjoy very much, and yet I still wanted to remain connected to my family, and so taking my new partner to see my family was a stressful situation, and so we developed this tool in part to handle those situations, and we realized that

it's not rocket science, like it's nothing too complex. It's really just breaking things down into some very very clear steps that helped us sort of process the emotions better

and be in a better space. And even now, like then, we started teaching the tool to other people and people kept coming back to us and it just seems so straightforward, like we're just going to talk about our intentions, concerns, boundaries, and desires or dreams for this particular situation that we're heading into, and that I think that clears like of the stress or it gets to that specific place that you were just talking about, right, like, Oh, that's why

we're doing this, that's what our attention is. Oh okay, well that's why we're doing it. Then all of these other decisions kind of can get made and be clear, so you just sort of kind of clear out the emotional clutter. Yeah. I think that you're right that the model that you guys have and you just articulated it really quickly. Intentions, concerns, boundaries, and dreams is not rocket science,

but it is helpful to have simple frameworks. You know, I find that a lot of times people who are listening to a show like this, some people are kind of new to this stuff, but a lot of people have been around this block a bunch of times, right, And so it's not really about did I hear something I didn't know and I learned something I'd never heard. It's really about is there a framework or a way that I can put this together that allows me to

actually apply it to my life? How does it actually apply? And that's what I like about this model is it says, Okay, if I'm about to go into a difficult conversation, here's a way to think about it. You guys say, don't if you're angry, hungry, or have had alcohol. You use the acronym A h A. I'm curious. I've heard a little talk about recovery. That's a coming out of recovery is another very similar acronym, halt Right, don't allow yourself

to get hungry, angry, lonely, or tired. You might think you need a drink, when really what you need is food to calm down, take a nap, or talk to someone. Yeah. Absolutely, And I think that's where I came from we're like, oh, halt, but with an extra a that twelve step would automatically include most twelve stup. Anyway, that not having a conversation when you're tired points to a bit of wisdom that still seems to be floating around in certain circles, though

I'm hoping it's quickly getting banished. Which is never go to bed angry, which is, to me, an absolute recipe for disaster. We wholeheartedly agree that is a one relationship truism that we never do. I'm like, let's just go to bed, We'll figure it out tomorrow. And often when we wake up like, oh that, you know what, I'm sorry. That wasn't a thing, Like it just vanishes versus let's just hash this out till four in the morning, over and over, because I'm so clear, I'm passionate when I'm tired.

I've had too many of those in my life. It makes me shudder a little bit to think about some of them. I am glad to have learned not to do that. Let's move into a little bit more about this idea of radical alignment. That's the title of the book. What is radical alignment and why is it important? So again, I mentioned you know that that we work with teams, and we also work with leaders, and also we care

about our relationship a great deal. I guess I could share like Alex is not my first wife, she nor is she my second wife I I have. I've been through this a few times, relationships or something I've struggled

with much of my life. To the way we we really think about it is that it's all relationships all the way down, whether you're at work or whether you're in her personal life, if you're trying to live a happy life, if you're trying to be effective, if you're trying to do something of import whether it's raised a child or start a business, it's all about having other people in your life and having other people on your team.

And there's different ways to get people aligned. And I think we've all worked for bosses, are you know, been partners or been with partners who have tried to, you know, kind of bully their way into alignment, right, like like do what I say, And there's always this kind of underlying threat that if you don't do what I say, you're going to get fired. I've been that kind of boss, and I have worked for many bosses like that in

my life. And I think we've both just realized that there is another way, or there has to be another way in a business world, like being good to each other is actually good business. And you know, we're just a few few days after the passing of Tony Shea, who was someone who was really inspiring to me because he had this philosophy and I knew people who worked with him and worked for him over the years to empower the people inside the organization to be fully themselves

and then to align them around a common vision. And I think that kind of spirit and not not necessarily the methodologies are not necessarily the framework, but that kind of spirit, at least in a business context, really sits at the heart of our work. That you you come as a full person, as a unique person, and then you align your work and your effort and your energy around this common vision. And I also believe that that's the spirit with which we approach our relationship as well.

I love the word radical because when we were first thingking how to name the books like radicals, Like yeah, like power. I mean it's like a very like you know, agitating kind of feel to it. But another route definition of radical is the center like the radius, and we have to talk about how like we're both really like truth seekers, Like what's the real truth to this, what's the real real of what we're trying to do here?

And so when I think of radical alignment, it's like really authentic putting it all out on the table to find the true path forward, not out of manipulation, not out of capitulation, but like, can we do this together

in a way that's really honoring our full selves. One of the things that you say at a point in the book that I really love is that the point of this method is to make more of the relational iceberg visible, and that idea in general, I love that so much of this work, whatever it is, any of this personal development work, is taking this unconscious stuff that drives us and moving it up to being conscious. And I love the idea of the point of your method

is to make more of the relational iceberg visible. Because what I know I have done a big part of my life and I have to work against is just with relationships. If I don't see it, let's just stay away from it. I know it's lurking there under the surface. Let's just stay away from it, versus saying let's intentionally go find those things. Let's find the iceberg that's under the water, and let's make it visible, which is really

courageous work. We like to call these four buckets that we walk through the four steps as like the missing conversations that most of us don't specifically go into these four areas when discussing a topic. We make a lot of assumptions and it leads to a total lack of true clarity. Yeah, I'm going to say there are two reasons we don't have these conversations. They're probably more, but

I think I can think of two right now. That one, we just don't have a framework to do it right, We don't make the time to do it, we don't have the steps. It doesn't fit in. And that leads to the second one, which is the only time we then have the conversation. Let's say that we have a misalignment around our intentions around something is once that boundary has been crossed, once somebody feels violated, when someone feels upset.

So we're trying to have a conversation about something that's already difficult in a moment when it's heated, when feelings are hurt when people are feeling extra protective. And so the idea behind the framework is, well, before we do anything else, before we even start planning the project, let's say it's a work project or personal vacation. Before you even start planning, let's just get clear on what we're

talking about here. Let's just get clear on what's up for you, what you're bringing to the table, both in terms of your energy and your desires, your fears and

your boundaries. Let's just get really clear on that, and I'm going to share with you mine, and then we might discover along the way that whatever it was we were intending to do together was actually kind of a bad idea, because you know, we're so far apart that maybe we should not plan this thing at all, or that we just need to add kind of certain features to it in order to kind of how everybody feel like they're going to get what they want out of this thing. So let's go ahead and go into the

method before listeners go. If you tell me one more time about it without telling me about it, I'm going to stop listening. Let's move into the four steps of the conversation. Well before we do that, There's one thing I want to say about inviting people to a converse Asian, because this is something that I screwed up around so many times, which is the basics are the last thing anyone wants to hear is we need to talk to invite someone to a tough conversation or a tough topic.

Please don't say we need to talk. Approach it maybe lighter, like, hey, do you have time on Saturday or tomorrow to talk about X? So that we can figure out what the best steps are. Something light and simple like that is a lot more inviting. I've invited people via email and text also if it feels too much to do face to face. Yeah, and offering people to framework ahead of time sometimes helps as well. So we have you know, like a cheat sheet that we offer on our website.

There's also stuff and you know, things in the book. Sometimes that can really be helpful because you're giving people steps and you're making it safer. But yeah, the invitation defining who needs to be a part of our conversation and what the conversation is really about, because you know, you mentioned like getting specific, like that's where the specificity starts, you know, because sometimes conversations to start with, I'm upset

about this vague I'm upset about money. Okay, well wait a minute, let me do a little bit of work. What am I really wanting to talk about. I'm actually wanting to talk about the budget for our upcoming vacation, not money as this giant topic which includes retirement savings, which includes you know, the paying the mortgage, which includes salary,

you know, all of these other things. So sometimes we want to just narrow the topic down before we even start, so figure and also figuring out who needs to be a part of the conversation. Sometimes sometimes it's quite obvious, and sometimes it's a little bit more mysterious because as you get down to the topic, you're like, oh, no, wait, I need to include this person and not this person. So that's the first start. So then when you go into it, you agree to take turns and not talk

over each other. And that's a really helpful way, Like we're not going to argue with each other, We're just really listening to each other about these four topics for project X or vacation. Why. Yeah, we're just sharing information. That's the whole spirit of the thing. And sometimes we even set a timer. I'll give you two minutes, you give me two minutes. Um. We've run this with groups of sixty people at times online and sometimes you know,

so we change sort of methodologies. But the idea is to give everybody equal speaking time, to not have cross talk, right, to not have people sort of talking over each other or um or or responding to what someone else is saying.

Because the spirit is, I'm just going to share my information and then once we get all the information out, once we close this conversation, then we can move on to where we might normally start the conversation, which is around planning and around you know, your plans and other intentions. So let's say we want to go on vacation to visit your mom. Is that a vacation trip? Let's call it stands silent on this one. So what are your

intentions and going to visit your mom? Some intentions always with visiting my mom is too you know, she's ninety now, so is to stay connected to her and uh, stay connected to my own legacy in a way, my own my own family, my own emotional legacy, my own historical legacy. I heard someone say a little while ago, like something you can really do for your A good act in life, sort of a growth act in life, is to give somebody a good death. And I know that's kind of

sounds kind of grim. Even though our relationship has been difficult for most of my life, there is something about of being of service to her that makes me feel like a bigger person, makes me feel like a happier person, and it helps me grow. And so going to see her is part of that. What would your intentions be with going to see my mother? My intentions are really just to support you. You know. I like to get out of the house, and I like that there's a

lot of bird life where she lives. I think family is important. That's one of my values. But I feel a little bit obligated to go. Just side note here, it's okay to, you know, be honest about why you're in it. Why would you even do this thing? Like if you're talking about work, you can say, well, I'm here to make money. You know, that's an okay answer. Okay,

to be really honest about why you want to do something. Yeah, And what we're really talking about is values, right, It's very specific to you when you're asking when change the question why am I spending time on something? We are asking or answer the question, what do you value? What is important about this thing? So you mentioned obligation, which also in some way, and you also mentioned supporting me.

What I hear is that one of your values is our relationship is supporting me in being the person that I need to be, or are taking care of the things that I feel are important to me. That's very cool. So what are your fears or worries or concerns about this trip? So many this is step two of the method is step two Step two for those following at home. We're taking we're taking turns, we're active listening. We might even ask each other questions, but we're not going to

respond necessarily. And by the way, this is a conversation we've had a thousand times probably, but we still have it. We still have it every single time because we learned something new every time we do anything. So my concerns are always that I'm going to indulge in self pity or get angry easily, or feel upset, feel put upon by her, and that that will impact you, that I'll behave in a way towards you that I don't want to behave, and I'm just concerned that I'm going to

feel bad. You know that, you know, like that she'll she'll say something about my hair or my tattoos, and I will take it personally. My mom can't leave my mohawk alone, just can't not comment on it. Yeah, cannot not comment on his tattoos or my hair or my beard. You're a looking a little scruffy, bob. I do. It's my look, you know, it's style like pandemic barber yourself. So my concerns are that will both be stressed out and we won't sleep well, and that will be even

more grouchy. That I will gravitate towards all the sugary foods while I'm there to try to like self soothe, and then I'll feel even worse. I won't be able to hold back from a comment that your mom has made, and I'll say something to her, which will just make everything worse. Honestly, I'm afraid that we'll fight and we'll get divorced and I'll die alone under a bridge. Like That's the ultimate end of all of my fears is I will lose everything because of this and I'll die alone.

So I have to share. Like, one part about fears when we encourage people to share their fears and share their concerns, is that fears are often quite irrational, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be shared. That doesn't mean that they shouldn't be voiced. That, you know, because they actually removes power, Like as soon as you say that, right,

it lightens them. We mentioned sort of some neuroscience research that talks about when you say something and hear it at the same time, that it actually does impact the way your brain works. But I also just think it adds like sometimes I hear stuff coming out of my mouth and I'm like, oh my god, that's just so ridiculous. Yeah, yeah, Okay, now I feel a little bit more relaxed. So step three.

Step three is boundaries, and two questions that you can use to help figure out your boundaries are what do you need to be your best? And what do you need to feel safe? And we also like to remember that we're not ordering off a menu. This isn't a list of demands. Necessarily, you might not get everything you want, but you might, so you know, sharing them here in this space will help you all figure out if you can make them all possible. Yeah, so what are your boundaries?

By the way, I'm gonna just give some boundaries that we've developed over the years. Um. The first is no more than two nights, you know, staying in my mother's town. Also staying at a hotel and not staying with her. Also making sure that we get personal time, not necessarily together, but that we each get a loane time, um, and that I exercise while I'm there. So those are always

super healthy boundaries. And then the third one no drinking, no glass of wine with dinner, no cocktail, and even though that's a steady pull among my family, do without that. And if I do eat sugar, it'll be very limited, you know, maybe one cookie or something like that, allow myself a little bit of an indulgence. Something else we've developed over time, which might be a little shocking to people.

It's not a boundary that we have every time, but we don't often take our son to visit anymore because there were members of the family that were rude disrespectful to him, and we realized, oh, we don't have to perpetuate family trauma and bad behavior, like we don't have to subject him to stuff that we had to endure just because it's family, Like we can actually just leave him with his dad that weekend. That's okay. So that's been really interesting, like we've gotten really clear what's good

for us. Well, I would also find that it would re traumatized me, Like watching how he got treated was like, oh, that's how I got treated, And all of a sudden, my inner child is now being treated in that way and having way too much empathy or way too much empathic pain, which really accentuated things for me. And then I couldn't feel protective towards it. It just it was it was a bad spiral. So yeah, yeah, I've noticed

similar things with my son. He's older now, he's a senior in college, but I would notice those sort of things in certain family situations. I don't know that I was wise enough when he was young to be like, well, I'm just not going to put him in it, but I would notice it, just the stray comment, not at all like what it was for me, But I would

find myself so angry. Yeah yeah, me too, me too. Um. And by the way, we have this conversation with him often about stuff like this, and man, I wish people had taught me how to do this kind of thing when I was younger. Boundaries, what are those? We're supposed to have boundaries, boundaries and concerns are really the toughest part, and we love to end on a high note, so we quest that you do it specifically in this order

and end on dreams. This is where you come back together and you share your highest hopes, like if this were to go amazingly, well, what would be true for me and for you? Like what do I want for you and for us as a family. And when you share your dreams with people, like it's really hard for me to not want your dreams to happen for you. And so then you come back together as a team, like you start releasing some oxytocin together and you're like, okay.

Then it puts you in the state where you can actually work together on any points of friction that evolved. And it may sound kind of weird to talk about

dreams when there's something really stressful. We ran like a thousand couples through this process at the beginning of the pandemic when people were going into lockdown, and it seems kind of weird to ask, like, what are your dreams about a global pandemic, but we find it really it's really essential, right, It's not that everything is a silver lining, not the sort of spiritual bypassing that that that can be so toxic and annoying, But it is important, I think,

to put ourselves in mind of what is the best possible outcome for this. You know. Intention is just like why I'm going or why I'm doing this thing. But dreams is really, well, if this were to be the best possible version of this thing, what would be true at the end of it? How would I feel? What would you know? If it's a business thing, like what kind of business metrics are going to move and how

far and those kinds of things. But we like this one to be really visceral, like really like, well, here's where I'm sitting in this place, and I'm feeling this way because this has just happened, you know, or something

like that. So in the case of this, it's like we're driving home, I'm reminiscing because there have been some moments of sweetness while I was there, because my child had had sweet moments, and like I would get to remember some of those, like look at an old picture or tell an old story at the family stories to come up the ones that delight me rather than the ones that embarrass and annoyed me. Some of those would

have happened. And that you and I are feeling closer together as a result of the experience we've had, that we're not feeling just I'm not kind of putting it in its opposite, but you know that we're not feeling that, we're actually feeling closer and more bonded because we've been through something together and and we've handled it well. And I think that the main thing is I'm proud of myself, Like I'm proud of how I behaved. I'm proud of

how I showed up. Yeah. My dream for us is that we both feel really relaxed and satisfied as we're driving away from your mom's house, like she's happy, she feels like seen and nourished, and that we feel like we got some rest and relaxation and maybe saw some cool birds while we were there. Yeah, I went to the garden when when bird watching. Yeah, And that's it. That's it. That's all you gotta do. Simple, that's all you gotta do. Share those four things with each other.

And if there were any problems that really need to be addressed, or boundaries that you have to refine or agree to. Now you know all the pieces that surround it, and after you've shared your dreams together, you're much more likely to figure out those issues of friction. Are you feeling stuck in stagnant when it comes to making progress towards your goals? Or do you feel like you're just scratching the surface in your life and it's got you

seeking more meaning, connectedness and growth. Or maybe you've got familiarity with spiritual principles like mindfulness, but you can't quite figure out how to apply them to your daily life. As a spiritual director and transformation and coach, I work with people to establish healthy habits for a better, more

fulfilling life. A couple of things. I help people with things like improving your habits and routines to feel stronger, achieving your goals so you're more fulfilled, or applying spiritual habits to feel more connected. If you're curious to learn more about how we might work together to help you grow, then you can book a free thirty minute consultation with me and there's no pressure to sign up. I am

not a high pressure salesman under any circumstances. It's just a chance for us to talk and see if we're a match to work together. So if you are interested, go to Eric Zimmer dot coach slash application again, that's Eric Zimmer dot coach slash application And I look forward to talking with you. If the very least, we'll get to know each other and have a nice thirty minute chat. You talk about ways of closing the conversation because obviously

for certain things, this is just the very beginning. You guys use the example of the book that you chose to write together and how the first step was you had a conversation like this to make sure you're both in. You went through your intentions, concerns, boundaries, and dreams. But then after that there's work to do. I got to come up with the plan, got to figure out how we're going to do it. There's a lot of stuff that comes after this. So this is really just sort

of the place to start. Yeah. Yeah, and we usually we find if we're running with a group, people are pretty tired after this. It can be some pretty fefty emotional labor. But we'll do you know, like leadership team off sites that are sometimes two days where we're working through a whole lot of planning or team chartering, you know, project planning or either or quarterly planning, those kinds of things, and we find that this is a really good kick

off for that, right. It just sort of sets the tone. It gets people connected, it brings people together, and it gets all of the information on the table. We find that actually allows everything else, you know, the stuff that you're gonna do naturally anyway, it allows it to go much faster and the conversation itself. What we do say in the book, and I think maybe what you're alluding to is that there are usually a couple different ways it can end. Like one is that we ent up

with a no like like. So the original version of this book was called getting to Hell Yes, and so the idea was sometimes what you get to is a hell no, right, like, oh my gosh, this thing that we were planning to do together, what a bad idea that is, you know, And and it becomes very apparent, often usually to both people at the same time, or all people at the same time, or maybe just one.

But good solid nose are great to have, right because it allows us to back out it allows us to be like, Okay, I'm not going to do that, or we get to the hell yes, which is wonderful right where it's like, oh yeah, now I see more of you, you see more of me. There's no tension in any of the things that we share with each other. They all are are combatible or very similar in some ways. Um, you know, ours were not the same when we talked about going to see my mother, but they were similar enough.

This is gonna be a hell yes. But there's that middle ground where sort of like, huh, this feels a little bit uncomfortable, this feels a little we eard, And at that point we find that it's really useful to get specific about what those weird things are, what those things are that need to be dealt with, and then you have to come up with a plan for dealing with them. You know, frankly, it could be mediation, right.

It could be that you know you're you're doing something with another person that you have to be with or there's a contract involved with but things are so far apart that there's just there's so much tension that you might actually need to bring in a professionally, might need to bring in mediation. We don't run into that much, but it maybe the kinds of things we deal with don't don't lend themselves to that kind of outcome. We have the same exact conversation this summer, and it turned

out that Bob went alone to visit his mom. We were high pandemic times. We realized, oh, I shouldn't even go. You go by yourself, don't stay overnight. We found a new path forward for it that worked for us. But we've had people use it to plan huge weddings involving multiple continents and you know, hundreds and hundreds of people. We You've had people use it to negotiate a raise

and a bonus. I'll tell you what we use it most for is by ourselves alone with a journal to get clear about you know, there's this thing I want to do, or there's this thing I'm involved in. What are my intentions, what are my concerns? Just really getting clear on your own is actually, I think the best way to prepare to have the conversation with somebody else think through it first. I'm the kind of person that needs to like process for a while. I'm not a

verbal processor. I need to write and think so we'll often do this on our own. I think that's probably the most common way people use it. Yeah, and the solution is usually just become apparent you've gotten all the information out there and you've gotten specific enough. Do you know Chris Foss's work. He's a hostage negotiator for the FBI. He wrote a book called Never Split the Difference, which

was influential we actually quote in our book. But one of the things he talks about is this idea of when are negotiating in a really difficult situation, you just have to keep developing more empathy for the other person and keep getting more information. And as you get more empathy and as you get more information, what will happen is that the way out of it will emerge. It will just come out of that information. It will it will,

it will emerge from it. And I think, you know, we're not dealing with anything nearly as high he's talking about, but the same principle applies, right that if I'm just with somebody and listening to them, and they're listening to me, and we're connecting, and we're developing empathy for each other, we're understanding each other's worldview, then the solution will emerge.

And whether that solution is to not do this thing at all, as I've said, or to do this thing with some kind of modifications, or just to keep going and to get into the planning stage, all of those things can work. So I like the idea of using it yourself to sort of reflect through things. One of the things that someone listening might think, or or I might have a moment of think, is you guys have

a good relationship, so this works. But Bob, you sounds like you've been in some previous situations I certainly have. Does this help heal relationships? Or like, how does this fit into the realm of we're a couple and we communicate poorly with each other? I would say we have a good relationship because we use this. Look at that, Um, we were both crap at tough talks in our previous relationships. I just avoided most tough conversations throughout my life. UM,

so yes, it will feel clunky at first. We've definitely had people report back I felt, or my husband felt, or my partner felt like it's weird to go through a process to talk about something important. And my question to you is, well, you've tried it not structured. Most of your life or your relationship hasn't had structured conversation before, Like, really, how's that going? You know, here's the basic question. Are you willing to try something different? Are you willing to

agree to some basic ground rules? Just we won't talk over each other, We're not going to argue where this is fact finding, this is information gathering, and we're going to follow these four prompts. How about we try it three times and give it a shot. And we've just heard so many wonderful stories from people. One of my clients who got a huge raise and got a huge bonus using this conversation with her boss also used it too. I mean, she just got married. She had never had

a relationship longer than a few months before. You know, she's got an incredible new relationship newly married, and she's like, I didn't know how to talk before. Now I know what's missing and what I was avoiding talking about. You guys say early on, and I think this sentence is worth its weight in gold, which listen with compassion and curiosity and speak with courage and vulnerability. Just that simple idea,

if we could keep that in mind, goes a long way. Yeah, yeah, I think it's really essential and thank you for bringing it. And I've done this in previous relationships where I've looked to counseling or look to a nonviolent communication or other frameworks to to sort of fix my relationship by which I have meant fix my partner. Right, if I can just communicate my demands in a better way, then they will hear them and do what I want them to do.

That that's so funny and that's so true, right, And so often I think when we talk about communication as a way to heal a relationship, we're talking about, well, like, how do I say this thing so this person will hear me? But really communication is actually more about listening, and it's being about willing to hear the hard stuff, um, willing to be curious about your partner, and being willing to share the things that are difficult for you to

share it actually being willing to dig deep. One other pattern we've seen is sometimes couples will come to us and they'll say, I really want to help, you know, work with my partner. And then we'll talk to you know, one or both partners, and we realize that somebody's really not on board here. You know, somebody is really not terribly self aware or they're hiding something, and we're not therapists.

So if both people are coming to the table, or if all people are coming to the table in good faith, then this can help quite a bit. And still you may discover along the way that separation is perhaps the ideal thing. When I look back on my old relationships, the ones that were most traumatic for me, they were traumatic because I held onto them longer than I should have, because I didn't learn that very important. I think a

lot of people learned this in high school. They learned how to break up with somebody and be like, oh, yeah, we're just not a match. That's so advanced. Well, they do want Dawson's Creek anyway, or something, you know TV.

I learned how to like hold on and hold on and hold on, And that was my own irrational, trauma informed or trauma sourced needs that were again trying to shape my partner, trying to hold on to her connection or her affection at all costs, rather than listen to what she really needed, and rather than be honest about what I really needed and realize that this may not be a match. Excellent. Well we are at time here.

I have really enjoyed this conversation. We're going to continue in the post show conversation, and Bob, you teased me with this before we started, so I'm gonna have to bring it out because you seem like a relatively down to earth, reasonable rational guy. Most of our listeners are gonna think that, and then you're gonna tell us about being an occult for two years. So we're going to

discuss that in the post show conversation. Listeners, if you'd like access to that, you can go to one you Feed, dot net slash Join, get post show conversations, ad free episodes, and all sorts of other wonderful things like the joy of supporting something you value. So when you Feed dot net slash joint, Alex and Bob thank you so much. I really did enjoy this and I got to really just sort of step back here and let you guys do the work. It was lovely. Thank you, thank thank you.

If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community with this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members only benefits. It's our way of saying thank you for your support now. We are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support, and we don't take a single dollar for granted.

To learn more, make a donation at any level and become a member of the one you Feed community, go to when you feed dot net slash Join the One You Feed podcast. Would like to sincerely thank our answers for supporting the show.