Adreanna Limbach on Befriending our Difficult Feelings

weekly group coaching calls on Wednesdays at noon. We had our first one this last Wednesday and it was wonderful and I will do it again for the next several weeks. Details as I said, on how to join that are at when you Feed dot net slash help. Secondly, I am doing free coaching sessions for healthcare workers. There's only

a few spots remaining. I've gotten a pretty overwhelming response to that and I'm working with a lot of people, but there are still some opportunities, so free coaching sessions for healthcare workers. And then also I am giving discounts and offering payment plans on all of the one on one coaching and spiritual habits program, so that if you

need some additional support during this time. I'm trying to make it a little bit more affordable and a little bit easier to access, and as I mentioned earlier, details on all these things are at one you feed dot net s flash help and if you're not connected to us via email list or social media, this is a great time to do it because we are using those channels to announce other things that we are doing to

provide support in these times. So you can join our email list and get links to all our social media off of that same page. So I wish you the best in staying safe and sane, be good to yourself, be good to others. All the things that we've talked about and learned about. Feeding our good wolf is especially important in these times that I'd encourage you to lean on those learnings, lean on those practices because we need them more than ever. Thanks so much, and let me

know how we can help. If you have other ideas that we've not thought of, please feel free to let us know. Take care by. Everything is fine. I'm just going to tamp this down for a little bit of chocolate on top of it, like some wine or some Netflix. And you know what, now it's fine. I don't feel it anymore. I'm fine. Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or

you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life

worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Adriana Limbach, a head teacher at M and DFL Meditation Studios in New York City. Adriana's work has been featured in The New York Times, Women's Health, Refinery, twenty nine, Yoga Journal, and others. Her new book is Tea and Cake with Demons, a Buddhist Guide to Feeling Worthy. Hi, Adriana,

welcome to the show. Eric. Thank you so much for having me here. It's a real treat. Yeah, I'm excited to have you on we're gonna talk about your book called Tea and Cake with Demons, a Buddhist Guide to Feeling Worthy, and it's really a wonderful book. You're a great writer. We're gonna talk about that in a second, but let's start like we always do, with The Parable. There is a grandfather who's talking with his granddaughter and he says, in life, there are two wolves inside of

us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the granddaughter stops and she looks at her grandfather says, grandfather, which one wins? And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work that you do. It's a really great question. You know.

I love the Parable, and I really love your podcast. The Parable actually brought me to your podcast. It was recommended to me by a friend, maybe like a year and a half ago or so. You know, I think um, in the most basic sense, the Parable in my own life is a really great reminder of where my attention goes, my finite attention, And I think particularly working in the world of meditation, which is funny to say that I

work in meditation, like the thing now right right? Um, Yeah, I really think a lot about attention and where we're placing our attention and just the power of our attention and how that really sort of dictates where our energy goes and where our focus goes, and our momentum goes, and and so I think this particular parable is such a beautiful reminder um that we actually have a lot of choice and agency over where our attention goes and

the resulting consequences of that. Yeah, I love that. We recently launched a new programs it's called Spiritual Habits program. But one of the fundamental principles is really to be looking at as often as we can where is our what is our intention? And where is our attention? And with those two things, we're able to actually make pretty big transformations by just staying focused on And a lot of times it's like what do I intend to do with my attention? Which is kind of what you're saying.

By actually being conscious about where I choose to put

my attention, I shape my experience entirely. So where I'd like to start with this is just to read a short section from your book and then talk about And the reason I want to do this is because one of the things that happens a lot is that listeners of the show will often say something to me along the lines of, well, you have these people on the show, and you know, maybe you should have some ordinary people on because they have this sense that if somebody has

written a book or teaches meditation or does that, that like they've got this all figured out and there's somehow different than the rest of us. And um, your book starts off very early by sort of laying that idea to waste. And I just want to read this because I think it's really important. You said, confession, this book was really difficult to write. And when I say difficult, I mean crying on the floor while eating a block

of cheese and calling my mom kind of difficult. It was tea and cake with my demons all day long. And I just I really wanted to bring that out because I just loved how much you talked about how difficult doing this was. And I think for a lot of people when we run into something difficult. We think, well, it's too hard, I can't do it, and you're this is a great example of you ran into that difficulty, you dealt with it in a skillful way. And on

the other side of it, there's this beautiful book. Well, thank you, thank you for saying that. It's a beautiful book. I I felt in the throes of it while I was laying on the floor eating cheese. It could have gone in so many different directors, right right, yeah, I mean my my process. And I had to giggle to myself when you know, I heard the phrase ordinary people because I think before I had written a book, I also sort of had this um kind of pedestal mentality

of of anybody who publishes a book. Uh, And you know, I grew up I talked about this as in the book as well. I grew up as as kind of like an awkward, introverted kid and really found my solace in books. And so authors to me, in my mind, are like rock stars. And I thought, before I wrote this book, um, you know, there's nothing ordinary about that. But while I was in the process, that was one

of those things that kind of got shaved back. I think for the better is is just my expectation of, um, you know, what a writer is and what that process is like, and um really just brought it down to earth, oftentimes in a literal way. Penci landing on the floor right right, I love this lane. So the trolls that live under the drawbridge between idealism and outcome can and have paralyzed far more talented people than myself and probably

always will. And I think that's a great way of saying it, because creating anything, boy is it hard work. There can be a lot of slogging away in the middle and fighting those trolls that you say. So I just really wanted to bring that up to begin with, because again, I think a lot of people think that there's something different about them from other people who succeed or get a book done or all that, and a lot of times it's just that the people who get

it done stay in the trenches with the trolls long enough. Yeah, I love that you bring that up, and and I would agree that has always been my experience. Is really just um, you know, it's not that I'm the best writer or the most intelligent writer, or have the best technique or you know, even that I'm I'm the most well trained meditation teacher, or the most present person on earth,

or the most you know, wisdom holding being Um. I think there's something to be said about just tenacity and like digging your heels in and saying I love this space enough to hang out here even when it's hard. Amen. Okay, So let's talk about demons. The title of the book is Tea and Cake with our Demons, So let's maybe tell the the underlying story of where that comes from, and then let's talk about what our demons are. Okay.

So the underlying story Um, which is such a nice juxtaposition next to um, the central parable or the central metaphor of the one you feed. The story goes and nobody is sure where the story it comes from. It's it's very heavily traded in the meditation world and Buddhist circles, but nobody is exactly sure where it originates, which I did my due diligence and my research and writing this book. Some people think that Jack Cornfield was the first person

to tell this story. Some people point to Tick, not Han. It's definitely not in the sutras. It's not the original scripture, so we don't know. Um, same with the wolf parable nobody really knows. I can't. I can't get an answer. Wow, isn't that interesting? Yeah? Yeah. Some people insist its Native Americans. Some Native Americans insist its Native American. Others insist it's not. Some people say Billy Graham wrote it. I mean, who knows, it's I've I've given up, I've just gone. Well, here

it is. It's a clearly useful storytelling device, as in, as is the story you're about to relate. Yeah, it almost doesn't matter where it comes from, because there's something really resonant about it. So the story of of Tea and Cake with Demons um, As the story goes, Mara, who is the central demon in Buddhist iconography. Um, he's kind of considered like the big bad guy or or the Buddhist nemesis will say, um, and there are many

kind of peripheral demons, but he's like the big demon. Uh. And he's oftentimes referred to as being the Lord of delusion or um, the personification of of all of our

kind of misconceptions. And so he comes to town, a town that the Buddha was visiting and teaching in, and the Buddha's attendants, the monks, the our hats, found out that Mara, the big batty had come to town, and they come running to the Buddha's door, and as the story goes, you know, they're they're kind of like knocking on the door and warning the Buddha, you know, mars here, mars here, what are we gonna do? What are we

gonna do? And it's this part of the story that I relate to the most because I find there's something so familiar about the monks freaking out, essentially, like there's this demon here, he's coming for you, he's looking for you. What should we do? And they immediately launched into strategy, which is, you know, should we Let's let's get out of town. Let's get out of town. We know that mars here. Mar doesn't know where we are. Let's run, let's pack up our begging ball, get out of town.

And then another monk times in with another strategy, and it's basically like no, no, no no, let's go on the offensive. Let's let's go get Mara because we know where Mara is, Mara doesn't know where we are. Let's go attack first. And then another monk times and no, no, no, no no, let's hide, Let's just go undercover. We'll stay quiet, will never be found. And they're all riled up with their

strategies for for dealing with this demon. And what the Buddha does next, I think is so revolutionary, at least it was from me when I first heard it, Um, which is to acknowledge all of these strategies for for dealing with this demon and instead to say, go go, bring Mara to my door and lay out my finest china and invite Mara in for tea, not as my enemy, but as my esteemed guest, which I think offers such a beautiful alternative to the way that we tend to slash.

I tend to think about me too, Um, think about you know, dealing with any kind of of discomfort, never even mind a demon, but but any anything that's less than preferable or uncomfortable. Is to immediately launching a strategy of how am I going to get rid of this as quickly as possible with the least amount of effort. And it's really radical to say, no, no, no, no, no strategies. Bring him to my door, invitamin esteemed guest,

invite him for tea. It's a great story. Also reminds me of another one from the Buddhist tradition of Miller Rapa in his cave and he comes home day and finds his cave full of demons, and same thing. He starts on his strategies. He first he's you know, he's trying to chase him away. You know, I get out of here running. They're not going anywhere. And then he's like, it gets a little bit wiser. He's like, I'll teach

him the dharma that will work. Well, no, it doesn't work, and you know, it's eventually when he says, hey, you know, you guys, all right, it's fine if you want to be here, hang out. It's good. And they all disappear as the story goes, except for the biggest, baddest, worst demon, and that guy is still hanging out, and eventually the way the what happens is Miller ra Pa puts his head in the demon's mouth, and at that moment it changes.

And so it's a very similar story. It's this, it's this welcoming these these things that we really don't like, which is absolutely, as you said, completely counterintuitive. Yeah, so contintuitive, right down to putting your head in the demon's mouth, right right, And so you know our demons, you say. I like this line and just want to read. You say, for each of us, this demon material is like our own erotic thumb print. It's in our difficult emotions, confused

states of mind, and the unintegrated aspects of ourselves. Those are our demons. So everybody kind of has it sounds like you're saying, we've all got kind of our own personal, uh collection of demons. Although they they look a lot like each other, don't they from person to person? Yeah. I think that's what makes any kind of story like this relatable, is that they do look a lot alike.

You know, their composition might be slightly off, slightly different, but there is something really universal about having difficult emotions that that we can all agree are are not favorable, Like say, um, you know jealousy or shame. Um. I don't know anybody in my life who experiences shame as being a pleasant thing. Um. So, even though it might present differently for all of us, I think that there's something, um that we can universally kind of agree on, like, yeah,

that's really painful, that's really uncomfortable. You also say what comes bound into the forefront in moments of stress. Our demons tend to rise to the surface when we feel vulnerable, threatened, or hurt. Yeah. Absolutely, And you know, I think that is where the kind of unique composition of demon material comes in or or kind of like the bio individuality of it um experience. That's a great phrase, thank you.

You know. I also for the past eleven years, I have been a student coach at an organization that uses that phrase very frequently. UM. So I have picked up on the language and just kind of muse it casually in my everyday life. You know, for all of us, it's different. UM. For me, I, I personally have a real strong tendency towards anger. UM is kind of my first line of defense whenever I'm experiencing anything kind of vulnerable or tender. UM. I tend to get really enraged.

In exploring my anger, first and foremost, I had to let myself actually feel it. I come from, you know, a background which I don't think is unique to me, particularly as a woman who grew up and in the kind of cultural situations that I did. That rage or anger is not cute, and it is not to be expressed. You can subvert it into something like depression or melancholy, and that might be a little bit more kind of palatable to the people around you. But you know, having

intense rage or or anger not acceptable. So I think, first and foremost, I had to develop my own relationship with anger and actually allow myself to feel it in order to be able to sit down and explore, like, you know what, why is this my first line of defense? Why is this so prominent? UM? And recognizing that it always shows up shouldn't say always, but I would say the time it shows up in the moments when I want to reclaim some kind of power over my vulnerability.

But there's something really powerful about feeling righteousness and anger and rage makes me feel like I'm back in the driver's seat, I'm in control, UM. And it's very frequently anytime that I'm feeling really tender or heartbroken or vulnerable. UM. So I think, you know, going back to that piece that you read UM, for each of us, that neurotic

thumb print is somewhat different. However, I think there is a universality to it and also a real opportunity to explore, UM, what are most kind of dominant demon material is and potentially the wisdom side of it. You talk about some of the ways that we usually deal with our demons which are not as skillful. So let's run through a couple of those real quick, and then let's sort of

talk about what's a better approach. You hit on a little bit of it there, but let's talk about how we normally deal with them and the ways that are less skillful. Again, just using my own experience, some of my favorite techniques, some of my favorite strategies are repression, first and foremost anything. I grew up in the Midwest. I'm very familiar with repression. I'm very good at it, very well. First in it, we're in the Midwest, did you grow up? I grew up in Wisconsin, between Wisconsin

and Ohio. Okay, I'm in Ohio, so mostly Midwest, not maybe not quite, depends how you define it, but I think very common overall mentality. Yeah, And I shouldn't say for all Midwesterners by any stretch of the imagination, but you know, and definitely in my family in my town high premium on like Midwest nice, where it's like what's wrong, nothing, I'm fine, Everything is fine. That sense of you know,

I want to keep the piece. I don't want to burden anyone else with my emotions or with my feelings. Um so I'm just gonna you know what, everything is fine, Everything is fine. I'm just going to tamp this down. I might like pour a little bit of chocolate on top of it, like some wine or some Netflix, and you know what, now it's it's fine. I don't. I don't. I don't feel it anymore. I'm fine. Of course, that strategy actually does work. It works, but it isn't sustainable.

It doesn't work for the long term because at some point, you know, it kind of re emerges in the same way that when we throw trash away, the trash doesn't actually go anywhere. We just bury it underground. You know. I think another strategy that might be common, I know, it's it's definitely Germane to me is the hot potato method, which is kind of like, um, you know, I don't want to feel this. This is really uncomfortable. I don't like how I'm feeling right now. Here. You take it,

and it could be any number of people. It could be the people that we have identified as being implicated in the situation. You know you're the reason why I feel this way. So here you take it. You take my my anger, my sadness, my jealousy, or a loved one. I am notorious for this because I know that my loved ones aren't going to go anywhere, and so it's sort of like you're in my vicinity. I'm feeling this really potent, uncomfortable feeling. Here you take it, and now

at least I'm not angry by myself. At least now I was married to someone like you in a previous, previous marriage. Yeah, you know, I think it's it's I think it's fairly common. I can't imagine that I'm the only who has these strategies, not at all. I stay strongly in the repression lane. Um. But that's a definite common one. I was just saying to a coaching client today. You know, like hurt people hurt people like if we

don't find a way to work with it, that's what happened. Yeah, absolutely, because it has to go somewhere, right, right, It's either like projectile or underground, but it has to go somewhere. Um. Another one that you mentioned that's a favorite of mine is to fixate on figuring them out. Oh yeah, I would love to hear how that shows up for you. You know, three episodes of a podcast that's a joke

that's I expose partially true. UM. That one sort of a fine line, right, because there is something to be said for or trying to figure out, solve, deal with, and you know, engage with. I think it's the line that I didn't hear very often three years ago, but I seem to hear all the time now around spiritual bypass right. I think a lot of people have gotten to a point and I find this a lot in work I do with people where we've gotten to the point where we're like, okay, I think, I know I'm

supposed to feel my feelings. That message seems to be percolating right getting out. But I think what happens is we expect that by feeling our feelings they will immediately disappear, and when they don't, that's when we go This strategy sucks. And you know, I think so much of it comes back to something that you mentioned at the beginning of

our conversation, which is intention. It is a fine line, and I think so much of it comes back to um sort of our our reason or purpose or in pension, motivation for wanting to to understand these things, or or or grappling with our feelings. There's kind of the skillful and neurotic side, where the neurotic side is if I can figure it out, then I don't have to feel it. And the intention there is still like subvert, subvert, subvert,

get it out of here as quickly as possible. Whereas you know, it could look the same on paper, but maybe the intention is I really want to understand this for my own development and for my own sanity and mental emotional health, which carries a very different intention, And I would imagine thus outcome right right, I can't recall it right now to mind, but somebody was talking about like three levels of engaging with emotions, you know, and and the the first is sort of like go away,

you know. The second is sort of like grudging, like all right, you can be here, you know, and then the third is the befriending. And I think that's what we're talking about when we say about go back to your your core story about Mara, right like a strategy one is like, oh, all right, we gotta do something about Mara getting out of here, strategy too, is like, all right, I guess we can let him hang around, but it's going to ruin the whole thing, you know,

like our whole events ruined his mars here. And then the deeper one, I think is the befriending or the the tea and cake or the what do you have

to teach me? Yeah, that's so lovely. I've never heard it phrase that way of these three, these three kind of phases or ways of relating, ways of relating to uncomfortable feelings, and so one of the things that you say later on in the book, and I think it's a beautiful place to sort of reorient in the middle of this conversation, which is you say, a rule of thumb on the path is that questions open things will answers shut them down. Something that I have always found

to be really, I guess, refreshing about meditation practice. And you know, I come from a Buddhist background, which which definitely kind of informs um the way that I teach meditation is that there's a real sense of encouragement not to be so eager to find the answer per se um, but to really lean into the process, which has always been a challenge for me, and maybe that's why I gravitate towards it is for me at least there can be this this real sense of linear thinking of kind

of again, if I can figure it out, then I don't have to and I don't have to figure it I'm you know, I'm looking for answers here. It's like there's a problem, and you solve a problem and then you know X, y Z, and then it's nice and

tidy and you figure it out. UM. So kind of moving over to this sort of process oriented or or directional way of thinking UM where the questions may be as important, if not even more important than than the answer itself, and really learning to hang out in this space of just letting the questions lead to more questions and more questions and more questions, and and not needing to kind of wrap it all up in a in

a tidy little bow. I think it's really challenging. I've always found it challenging for some people and might be native and not for me. Has always been a real draw to um meditation practice. And you know, these these Buddhist teachings is that there is a lot of encouragement to just continue to ask these questions. Yeah, I mean the Buddhist tradition seems kind of suffused with with that idea.

It's you know, zen mind, beginner's mind, right. I always butcher the quote, but in the beginner's mind there's many possibilities, and the experts there's few, right, And it tends to be dealing with a lot of what we need to deal with in this world as humans. We need lots

of possibilities, definitely. And I also understand, I mean, especially when things get really uncomfortable um or you know, somewhat painful, whether it be you know, our own difficult emotions or you know, what we're seeing kind of like socially or or globally. I understand the desire to like land on something where it's like this is an issue and we

need solutions. It might just be me. I've always found that if I haven't taken enough time to fully understand what the challenge is or what the discomfort is, or what the difficulty is, and that means actually like hanging out with it, you know, going back to what you were saying, go away, okay, you can be here, and

then kind of like third step is befriending. It's the befriending process of getting really intimate and cozy and familiar with what the challenge is and exploring it from a lot of different angles, and you know, inviting it in on a regular basis before any kind of skillful or informed solutions can emerge. You know, I've always noticed that whenever I'm keeping myself at a distance from whatever that challenge is, I can throw out solutions that I think

might work. But but I'm not actually intimate enough with the challenge to know the most skillful way to approach it. And I am definitely a give me a problem, and I will give you a solution very very quickly, and then I will get very irritated if that solution is not immediately adopted and anybody wants to change it. There are times, certainly in my previous career where that served

me well. Um, But I think even in that career, there were times I learned as time went on that like allow a little bit more time for different things to emerge. I was having this conversation with somebody and it was I'm taking this slightly off topic, but not not entirely. Where we were talking about how you may know what you think the right answer is like two minutes into the meeting, and you could just throw that

answer out and wrap it up. But the thing is a big part of what then needs to happen is that everybody else then needs to come to believing that that's a solution and and they all need to be bought in on doing that. And so while it may feel like with with this person, we were sort of saying, it feels like, well, we know what the answer is two minutes in and we spend twenty eight more minutes. It feels like that's wasted time. But it's not wasted time if the goal is that everybody feel bought in,

committed and part of the solution. I really recognize that because I just again looking at a younger version of myself, and not that I'm cured of this. I still have it, but it's not as extreme. A younger version of myself was always in a hurry, get the solution. Let's go, go, go, go, you know, solve fix. I've realized with certain things in life, particularly my emotions, that just doesn't work. Some things have fairly easy solutions, and you might as well implement them

and get to them. But lots of things don't. I mean, I can't help, but wonder how did that shifts or you or what shifted your perspective from you know, find the solution as quickly as possible implemented boom done to this sort of maybe more exploratory or or process oriented approach, probably a whole bunch of things age. I think, with just a modicum of effort, we tend to get wiser as we get older. I think, at least that's happened to me. Maybe it's maybe it's not only age, although

I think age contributes. I would say I've been doing this show a long time, listening to people, reading, seeing what works what doesn't work, certainly a deepening meditation practice. And I think a certain degree also of some of my demons, right that just although they've changed form. I mean, you know, at one point my demons drove me to put a needle in my arm every day, right and

destroy my life, and that's not what happens anymore. But some of those demons are still They're still around, and so um I think working with them over a whole lot of years has has caused me to just get a lot more skillful and how I deal with them um, maybe it's just the fact that I keep getting to work with them. I told that Miller rape story, and what's interesting about it. The part I don't like is in the story, he puts his head in the demon's

mouth and the demon just disappears. That's not my experience, right, my experiences, his teeth may get a little bit shorter, and he may not drool on me as much, and you know, but but he's not gone. You know, my demons just haven't vanished. That's not a real great answer, but I'm always sort of at a loss when when people are like, well, how did you get from there to here? I think that it's a lot of moments, over a lot of time, of of trying to take in a lot of wisdom and knowledge and and be

patient and learn. And my experiences, life isn't these like grand visionary moments where everything changes, although I've had some that are pretty profound. It's it's been much more just a slow and patient working with these things. Yeah, I really appreciate your answer. Thank you so much for that. It does speak precisely to what we're talking about here. You know that there is potentially the desire to just kind of have the plan like like okay, just shortest

distance from point A to point b um. You know, And what I'm hearing from you is that it really is a lot of different kind of causes and conditions coming together, a multidisciplinary approach, time age, the development allowing things to steep, which you know, I know for myself and are kind of like, um, hit a button and have Amazon deliver it, sort of sort of world that

we live in. Um, that's like not exactly what I want to hear, Like there's something kind of like mmmmm about it, like, but I want it now, like where's the button? So I really appreciate hearing you say that it really actually is a commitment and it's it's time, and it's an investment day after day after day after day. And to say all that though, does not mean to undersell, at least in my mind, the hour and the beauty and the transformation that can occur, you know. So I

think it's both right. I think both those things are there. I want to pivot here to a line you had that I can't let this interview go by without getting out because you're describing the first noble truth of Buddhism. Uh, you know that there is suffering in life. There's this thing called DUCA and you describe it as a low level case of restless everything syndrome, which as someone who suffers from restless legs. Actually, that line is so perfect

because that's what that's what DUKEA can feel like. You know, there's just always something that's not quite right, that just feels a little jittery, a little shaky, just like if I could just get that thing to settle in UM. I just love that line, A low level case of restless everything syndrome. You know, it's funny. I have restless legs too, and that's exactly what I was thinking about when I wrote it. It's never quite settled. Yeah, it's fascinating.

It's fascinating. So I I teach meditation and at mind Full Meditation Studios in New York City for the past I GUS for four and a half years since they've been open. And one of the most common questions that I get after class UM And I love the questions that come up after class because you know, it's like, what is actually happening in your mind when you're meditating? UM, your experience is going to be very different from my

experience and everyone else's experience. UM, one of the most common questions that come up is, um, nothing is like wrong,

per se. And I recognize, like I'm just sitting here in this beautiful space that sound proofed with like my own mind, and like I'm safe and I'm okay, and but but there's still this sense of like and also you know, it's it's like kind of boring, and I wish it were like a little bit more entertaining or like, you know, I kind of just want to check my phone, like what if I got that message, or like, you know, my leg is itching, or you know, like my my mind keeps like going back to this phone call I

had with my mom earlier today, and I can't kind of stop going back there. And and it's like even though there's nothing wrong, even though there's no danger and we're actually in this beautiful space together with no outside influence, there's still something that's like a little kind of dissatisfactory about being in our own skin. Oh. I had I had lunch with my mother in law a couple of weeks ago, and I love my mother in law. I

got really really lucky with her. She's she's the kind of mother in law that like two months into dating my now husband, she pulled me aside and she was like, so, I really hope this works, but if it doesn't, let's stay friends. It's like okay. So she herself as a long time meditation practitioner, she started practicing back in the sixties seventies. Uh, And we were having lunch and she

was talking about her dear friend. I will go unnamed, but she was about her her dear friend who she was like, you know her her exit is to compulsively clean and it was like her exit, I've never heard that before, and she was like, yeah, you know, your exit. Your exit is the thing that you do when it's just kind of unbearable to be in your own company or like just kind of unbearable to be in your

own skin. It's like nothing is wrong per se, but like it could be like maybe just a little better, Like maybe I'll jump online and and like see what's happening on Instagram. Like they're like, there's nothing wrong. It's just that low level, all pervasive sense of as you said, like jitteriness, the desire to take the exit, and so that then leads us into sort of the second Noble Truth.

So yeah, let's just go there, because I don't I don't know that I've explored the four Noble truths in a lot of detail in this show, although we've had tons of Buddhist teachers on. But let's talk briefly about you know, we've kind of just described the first noble truth, which is that you know, life is dissatisfactory. What what's kind of the second? So the second is life is dissatisfactory or life whether it's the kind of pain that we can point out and say that's painful, or it's

just kind of that low level restless everything. Uh. Second noble truth says, well, there's a good reason for it. There's a really good reason why we experience this dissatisfaction in life. And it boils down to the three root poisons. Um. The very first is clinging or attachment, second is aversion or aggression. The third is ignorance. UM. So clinging attachment is kind of our our fixation on having just the

kind of experience that we want to be having. Um. Like like our our our preferences and our specificity about you know, like if I could just rearrange my experience to have the kind of experience that I want to be having, then I'll be happy. And a version is the kind of like forceful distaste that we often feel for anything that is not that or it's it's our

attachment not getting its way, essentially. And the ignorance part of things is that we a don't know that this cycle of attachment and aversion is happening all day long. There's this primary tension that we're in all day long of like I want this, I don't want that. We don't know what's happening. And the second part of ignorance is that we really deeply self identify with these things. We deeply deeply self identify with what it is that we like and want and what it is that we

dislike and even hate. Which I appreciate that that these teachings say, you know, if we're experiencing dissatisfaction, there's a really good reason for it. And it basically boils down to this this kind of primary tension that we find ourselves caught in all day long and the way that

we self identify with it essentially. Right, So the second noble truth is that to summarize that a little bit, is that the fact that we're always either trying to get something that we want or push away something we don't want, and we don't see that happening. That's the cause of most of our suffering. Yeah, that's it, Which is not to say that, um, there's something kind of like quote unquote wrong with wanting things or or being

clear about our desires. However, I think you know, there is this split moment, like this hair fracture moment that can happen where this this really kind of sincere impulse of appreciation, like, yes, I really appreciate this, I like this, this is this is pleasurable, this is beautiful. I would

like more of this. It sort of hardens or it gets really kind of like, um, really kind of fixated, right, And I think the subtlety you're pointing to there is such a such an important point because this has been sort of with Buddhism. I've sort of felt this tension right along this line. And that tension is that on one hand, that seems built into life. Right, if you look at the most basic cell, it will move away from something that's toxic and move towards food. It's like

it's embedded in. It seems to me the condition of life, and so you hate to set yourself up to be in direct conflict with something that is absolutely sort of core to life process. So there's there's a subtlety here, which is that like, well, of course some of that is happening, because that's as as an organism built for survival. Of course, that's what you're you're doing. It's really, as you said, the extent to which we identify and the

extent to which we cling. I mean, when you hear of these truths there they're the poisons or attachment, aggression, and ignorance. And I love the way you put this, because the the way we often hear them, and you say, in their more inflamed manifestations greed, hatred, and delusion. There's this spectrum and and I've always felt this tension as and I've been a student of Buddhism for a long long time. I've always felt this tension between well, the

second noble truth saying. I think an unsettle way to approach it is, well, you suffer because you want things or you don't want things, And well, that's sort of also true. That is also kind of the way life is wired. And so I've always found that an interesting tension that that runs its way through everything that I'm

doing and and my practice. That's so wonderfully said, and I'm so glad that you pointed that out, that you know there can be this sense of like, well, you're suffering because you want things, And I know where my mind immediately goes when it's when it's framed that way, It's like, oh, well, then I just shouldn't want things, and I'm bad for wanting things. And maybe that makes me like an unspiritual person because I have a lot

of desires all all the time. I want things all the time, and that that makes me like a bad practitioner for a bad, bad spiritual person. So let's move on then, the third noble truth? Then, how would you phrase that third noble truth? Um is the potential for cessation? Where you know we're going in progression here of okay, life includes dissatisfaction on a lot of different levels. There's

a really good reason for that dissatisfaction. Here they are three root poisons, and the third says there's a way out. So good news, this is the good news is that if we're having this experience and there's a cause for this experience, and there's also a way to end that experience. UM. And so it begins to point to the potential of releasing suffering or releasing dissatisfaction, and then of course fourth Noble Truth brings us right into the path which Fourth

Noble Truth is. It's always it always kind of reminds me of like one of those Russian nesting dolls, where we get to the fourth Noble Truth and it's like, actually,

there's eight of them in here, more things. UM. And the way that I oftentimes think about the Fourth Noble Truth or or the eight Fold Path is that it really is this kind of path in a sense of self respect, of self respect or or self worth or self love, of really taking responsibility for ourselves, taking responsibility for our mind and our emotions, and UM saying you know, Okay, I have this life, and I want to be a really thoughtful, skillful steward of my life. So how do

I go about doing that? Um? And I think the Fourth Noble Truth Eightfold Path really kind of sets up some really nice parameters without being too kind of like dogmatic or or closed off. It's kind of like, are some guidelines and we're going to leave it to you as sort of a self aware human being who is working with your own minded emotions to navigate the gray areas.

And I think that's where you going back to what we were talking about, this sense of questions opening things, and this real encouragement for for curiosity UM comes into play. Because there is no definitive answer UM, it's left in our own hands to to kind of navigate the most skillful path, recognizing that it's a lot of gray area. Love the way you phrase that that it's up to us to find and navigate the right path. So we are at the end of our time for this conversation.

You and I are going to talk a little bit more in the post show conversation, and one of the main things we're going to talk about is how much we suffer when we compare ourselves to other people. Your realization that Dolli Llama has haters, which which is great, and so we're gonna we're gonna tie all that together

in the post show conversation. Listen as you can get access to that as well as a exclusive mini episode with me each week where I do a teaching, a song and a poem, as well as lots of other good things and the joy of supporting something you love by going to one new feed dot net slash joint. Well, Adriana, thank you so much for coming on the show. I really appreciated your book. I really appreciate the conversation and getting to spend some time together. Eric, thank you so

much for having me. What a joy. Thanks for Thanks for the conversation. Okay bye. If what you just heard was helpful to you, please consider making a monthly donation to support the One You Feed podcast. When you join our membership community. With this monthly pledge, you get lots of exclusive members only benefits. It's our way of saying thank you for your support. Now. We are so grateful for the members of our community. We wouldn't be able to do what we do without their support, and we

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