The minute that you call somebody and you explain what's going on, you hear the insanity because you can't hear it in your own head.
Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time. Great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you think ring true. And yet for many of us, our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity, self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't have instead of what we do. We think things that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent, and creative effort to make a life worth living. This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Benjamin Haggerty, better known by his stage name Maclamore. He's a Grammy
winning American rapper, singer, and songwriter. A native of Seattle, Washington, he started his career in two thousand as an independent artist and released three works. He then rose to international success when he collaborated with producer Ryan Lewis as the duo Maclamore and Ryan Lewis. On this episode, Eric and Ben discuss his music and his journey with Sobriety.
Hi, Ben slash Maclamore, Welcome to the show.
Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.
I'm really excited to have you on. Your music has meant a lot to me for two specific reasons that I just wanted to share real quick. The first is that I discovered you through my boys when they were younger, and I always love it when there is music that we both really love because it's a place to connect with children. It can be hard sometimes to connect with, particularly teenage kids, so that's been a real gift to us.
And then secondly, as a recovering alcoholic and addict, your music has meant a lot to me in that way also, So thank you.
That's awesome. I appreciate that.
We'll talk about the music in a minute, but let's start like we always do with the parable. In the parable, there's a grandparent who's talking with their grandchild and they say, in life, there are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And the grandchild stops and they think about it for a second. They look up at
their grandparent and they say, well, which one wins? And the grandparent says, the one you feed. So I'd like to start off by asking you what that parable means to you in your life and in the work.
That you do. Yeah, I love that parable. It's so true. What does it mean to me? For me?
There's a very clear cut polarity, a duality with the disease of addiction, so I have very stark contrast. My good wolf and bad wolf are in high definition, crystal clear. But you can't just jump from one to another. You know, like there's a slow process, and it's in the city.
It's just like the disease of addiction, where you think that you're doing good and then you kind of like start to fall off and self will kind of kicks in and you're like, all of a sudden running the show a little bit more, and then the bad wolf is like right there waiting, And I think that my entire life, I've been like a pendulum between the good wolf and the bad wolf. And it's kind of a
scary thing to have a really loud bad wolf. I think that a lot of people probably live with a bad wolf that doesn't go on self sabotaging, self destructive, super selfish, life threatening missions to find relief, to change the way that one person feels. And that's how my bad wolf kind of lives. Is all of a sudden, I don't like who I am. I want to change it.
I feel shame. I act out when that happens, and I do another action that's also shameful, and all of a sudden, there's these layers of shame.
Bad wolf grows bigger.
It's like feed me, feed me, feed me, and that fear, that self centeredness, that disease becomes louder and louder and louder, and so it swallows me and it inevitably wins. And I think that that good wolf is service. I think
that it's being clean, sober for me. That good wolf is thinking about others, is, you know, before myself, getting in a routine, putting my kids before anything else, and ultimately knowing that I have a purpose here and that there's things that align me with that purpose, and there's things that take me away from it.
Yeah, I've joked that. You know, at one point it wasn't so much I didn't even feel like I was feeding the bad wolf anymore so much as it was just eating me. You know, it just felt like it was just a monster that was devouring me. No, of course I fed it. I always feed it to get to that point. And I love that idea of sort of the slide from being in a good place and
ending up in a bad place. Your song starting Over meant a lot to me because I got sober off heroin and I stayed sober eight years, and then I sort of drifted away and ended up drinking and you know, smoking pot, and my bottom wasn't the same. Everything was fine, except inside. I knew I was dying. But it was a process. I can look at it now and see it very clearly, where it just gradually happened until it was like the next logical step was to pick up a drink.
I know it happens.
And every kid that came up to me and said I was the music they listened to when they first got cleaned.
I'm looking me a couple of days sober. I'm fighting demons back of that meeting on the east.
Side, shaking sweek and hope that they don't see it, Hope that no one is looking, that no one recognizes that failure of But no that hoodie, it's posted in the back with my hands crossed, it going that they call on me.
I'm passing them that they talked to me.
I'm booking up that door.
But before I can make it, somebody stops me and says, are you mack lamore? Maybe this isn't the place of time. I just wanted to say that. If it wasn't for the other side, I wouldn't.
Have made it. I just looked down at the ground and say thank you. She tells me she.
Has nine months and that she's so grateful, tears in her eyes, looking like she's gonna cry.
Fuck.
I barely got forty eight hours she did, like I'm some wise monk.
I want to tell her I relapsed, but I can't. I just shook her head and tell her, ingrats, get.
Back to my car, and I think I'm shipping yeah, because guy her other side, and if him was in my head, I'm just a flawed man. Man, I fucked up like so many others. I just never thought I would. I never thought I would then then pick up the book doing it by myself. Did it turn out that good?
If I can be an example of getting sober, then I can be an example of starting over. If I can be an example of getting sober, that I can be an example of starting over and.
Over and over.
You know, I'm glad that you resonate with that song. And it's an interesting thing too. And you said, you know, eight years. And one of the things that I have been wrestling with in recovery is this idea of time. Yeah, and does it actually serve us? And it's to open in the question. I don't necessarily have an answer, but I do think that there's pros and cons because I think that people can hold on to their time, you know, like I had eight years and for one be like, oh well, I've lost this.
You know, I've lost.
Eight years, when in actuality you had eight years of recovery. You were getting off dope, like that's a miracle in itself. And sure you might have slid back into you know, an alcohol thinking that you can maybe do some moderate drinking or drink like a normal person and then well I need to smoke weed now because I hate myself. Let me throw some more on top of you know, whatever it was. I know the story very well, I've
lived it. But this idea, I think there's so much shame built into relapsing right where it's like we've failed. You know, we had it, we had it figured out. Everyone was proud of us in our life. We had a recovery community. We were able to say, like, I have this amount of time, and then we go back
out for whatever reason. And I think that a lot of people, you know, I've seen it where like you know, with double digit sobriety, where they just can't get over the fact that they had twenty two years and now they're coming in as a newcomer again. And I think that oftentimes it can kind of placate to the ego and this idea of self in this linear time when
really we have today. Whenever anybody asked me like how much clean time do I have or what my birthday is or whatever I have today, that's my answer every single time. For one, I don't want to misrepresent, you know, the rooms of recovery, you know, with the anonymity piece. But because it's always my own doing, it's never the fault of any twelve step program.
It's always me not working the twelve step program.
Right.
But then of course you have the flip side of it where it's like it's really import and to celebrate these milestones. But I think that the milestone for me really comes and how am I living every day? You know, the prayer and meditation, like coming back? Have I harmed anybody today? Where am I showing up for other people? Am I of service? Am I tapped with my sponsor? And those are the things that I really find. You know, I can have two weeks and be more connected than I am with like five years.
It just depends on where you're at that day.
Yeah, I mean I agree one hundred percent. I get the point of long term abstinence because it's in long term abstinence that the obsession leaves. Thank God, right, because that's one of the worst parts of the whole thing. But it is this, you're either one hundred percent successful or you completely fail. And we don't measure most of life that way, right. You wouldn't get better at much of anything if that was the measuring stick. If there
wasn't a way of getting better along the way. You know, I had a client I worked with for a while and she came up with a great idea and she just put a marble in a jar every day that she would sober and continuous sobriety was difficult for her, but we were able to look at that over three years and be like, that is.
A huge, huge.
Marble jar, right, Like there's a lot of recovery, there's a lot of sobriety. There's a lot of really positive and good action built in there that if she was measuring it only on continuous sobriety, she would think she's a failure.
Yes, I love it. I love that idea. That's beautiful.
Yeah. So yeah, starting over was really great and I love that line. If I can be an example of getting sober, I can be an example of starting over, And that became really powerful for me about like, hey, that's the person I can be in recovery now, the person who did have this amount of time and then lost it and found a way back. And I've never measured sobriety again in the same way, like I don't pay attention to really generally, I don't celebrate a birthday.
If it wasn't Valentine's Day, I don't know if I'd know what day it was, right, like it just happened to be that day. But I've not gotten coins because I just felt like I had to abandon that for a while. Well, yeah, because otherwise it was always this. I used to be eight years sober, but now I'm
three and am I a bit you know? And as you said so eloquently, the shame is the engine that drives this whole disease to a certain extent, right, we feel bad about who we are, so we use, we use, so we feel worse about who we are, and down the ride we go.
That's exactly it.
That makes so much sense with the eight years and then getting It's funny he said three because my head, I'm like three, and relapse has been a part of my story. So maybe if I had fourteen continuous years of being clean, I would like be like no time. Time is important, But we've lost so many people in the rooms who literally couldn't get over that one thing
that they once had. And as addicts, like, we beat ourselves up enough, particularly when you get a head full of AA or NA or whatever A. It is like once you do that, the relapses are never fun. This is not some like vacation. This is like a self medicated like let me just try to, you know, maintain and not kill myself, and then eventually you feel like killing yourself. And you know, the whole thing is like you said, it's just a downward spiral of into the abyss and no one needs that.
Yeah, I mean in other side, you've got some lines in there. I think that was the song probably that put you on the map as far as recovery. And it's just this idea of looking in the mirror like I can't believe what I've become, you know, selling our dreams and our potential to escape through the buzz. I mean, it's just becomes amazing how something takes over so completely.
Yeah, you know, that record took over completely. You know, there's been like a handful, maybe two hands in the twenty five years that I've been writing music where I literally feel like I'm not even controlling the pen. Yeah, I'm a conduit. I don't know it's coming from somewhere else. You know, the universe is at work and I'm literally just like a shell to just like transcribe.
It's not dope to be twenty five and move back to your parents the basement. I've seen my people's dreams dit ive, seen what they can beat D nine and we's got a drug that's d Nile Groundhog daylight free peat. Each time I seen oxy Cottie take three lives, I grew up with them.
We used to chief dimes, and I seen.
Cocaine bring out the demons inside. See it in their line friendship. Seas no peace in the mind, stealing to take anything to fix the pieces inside, broken, hopeless, headed, nowhere, only motivation for what the dealer supplying that rush, that shrug, that dope, those pills, that crumb, that roach think and I will ever do that, not that drug.
Grobbing up Nobody ever does until.
You're stuck looking in the mirror like I can't believe what I become for I was gonna be someone, and grobing up everyone always does. We sell our dreams and our potential to escape through that buzz.
Just keep me up, Keep me up, Hollywood, here we come.
Oh girl, this bod is sinking. There's no sea lift me. And how the sky gets heavy when you are underneath said, I want to serve from you, and God.
He came down then.
And said.
Nothing for me.
And it was really the first time that I had had any sort of recovery. You know, I'd put together some months here and there, I'd be absent in I'd be like, all right, I'm going to cut this out, and I'd done that for you know, a decade. It didn't work, but it was the first time i'd gotten into the rehab and I started working with Ryan and I remember being in his basement and just putting on
that red hot chili Pepper's baseline loop. We didn't even have drums yet, and just literally like just loop that up, loop that part up, and I just and probably I want to say twenty minutes. I don't think it was longer wrote that entire record. It was that turning point where I was like, you know, at this point, no one had really been honest about being in recovery or being sober. Like this was fourteen years ago or fifteen, maybe fifteen.
I think.
I had to kind of come to that moment of like, well, now I'm doing this. I've always been really honest in my music, and this is before I had much of a fan base at all. I was an underground rapper, but it was that moment of like, I'm gonna tell the truth, and I get that if it's not popular, like you know, puts me in a box or like, you know, whatever it is for my like you know, two thousand fans I have out there, Like it doesn't matter.
I'm gonna tell the truth. And what I immediately saw once that record came out was people coming to the
shows just for that song. And it was like, you know, ten people, fifteen people, twenty people, but there was like groups of people in Recovery that were literally like they might have liked my other music too, but they had heard other Side and that was the reason why they came and they identified with it, and it was like that kind of glimpse into Yo, if I'm honest, like truly honest about who I am, about my shortcomings, about my character defects, if I can tell that on a
record just as much as I can like you know, pop my collar, I can flex, or I can showcase this skill set or whatever. If I can really be honest and authentic, there are people out there that will resonate with it, and you know, other Side was the beginning of that for me, and still today, you know, probably the most important record that I've ever written along with you know, maybe same love, but it's up there.
Every time I hear the chorus of that song, it gives me chills still today, I mean, and I've listened to it countless times. It's just haunting and beautiful, and there's so much emotion in it. I can see how it might have felt like that flowed through you, because it does feel so pure in that way, like it has that mystery to it that great art has, where you're like, well, I don't quite know where that came from.
Yeah.
So one of the things I've heard you talk about and I just wanted to go into a little bit. It's inherent in a lot of the music, but it's this idea of how torn apart it feels to be wanting to use and knowing you shouldn't use, you know.
I mean, I often think that I stay sober partially because I never ever want to feel that ripped apart inside, right, you know, because you've got this one voice that's screaming use, and you've got another voice that's screaming like, for God's sake, don't your children, your family, your everything.
Right. It is an.
Internal civil war that feels worse than maybe anything I know of.
Yeah, it is. It's horrible. You know.
Again, it's so insidious because it doesn't always come to me like that.
You know.
One of those versions is when you're like, I'm in so much pain. I'm clean, I'm sober, but I'm in so much pain. I don't know how to handle this
that I just want to escape. And I think that that is probably the most challenging part of this whole thing, because if you're in that much pain and you want to change the way that you feel, chances are like you've been in some self will you know, Because nowadays, when I'm tapped in spiritually, and I'm talking about when I'm working a program, when I'm doing meditation, when I'm doing yoga, when I'm of service, when i'm living, you know,
with integrity, when I'm being rigorously honest, I've gone through some shit and not wanting to get high, I really have.
Like some shit.
It's or for me, it's when life is just kind of like maybe I'm doing half those things, maybe I'm doing a quarter of those things. Maybe I'm doing like an eighth of whatever I just mentioned that keeps me healthy. And all of a sudden, I'm in an environment or I'm home from tour and I'm on the couch and I don't really want to go to a meeting, and that goes to a week of not going to meeting and whatever, and all of a sudden, I'm like getting high sounds fun that would make this better. And there's
no insurance, there's no safety net. I haven't been plugging into that outlet, that conduit of my higher power, So all of a sudden, I'm just on self will and I'm not thinking I'm not going back to that last relapse where I was in so much pain, where I was at that rock bottom where I didn't know if my wife was gonna leave or if my career was going to be it, and I'm crying and I felt that fucking pain.
I'm not even going back there. I'm not saying that take.
I'm just thinking about, man, it could be fun to change the way that I feel right now. And that's the dangerous spot totally. They're both really dangerous. One is because you're like hanging on in your in pain. The other one is like the disease has already been working.
It has been at work. It's been wearing you down for days, weeks, months, who knows how long years, And the disease is like, yes, we have made changing that this person feels appealing in their head, and now they're spinning and now they're like, well I could just do that. That wasn't my drugged choice. It's Saturday. By Monday, I'll stop. I have to stop Monday. All the things that we tell ourselves, or at least I tell myself, yeah, when that disease is active, that.
Feeling torn apart is almost always after I have started using where the obsession is now here, and now I have the clarity of like, holy shit, what have I done? Right, Because you're right, it sneaks up on you in the first case, because you're like, well, maybe it's not that bad of an idea, you know. It's kind of after that, because now all of a sudden, I have the obsession and I have the clarity of all the pain that
it's causing me and the people around me. And that to me is that kind of part where I'm like, oh, a craving is one thing or an occasional thought about it. I'm in pain and I want to get high. That's a different thing, but it's that.
Obsession once you've already done it.
Yeah, yeah, and you know this is ruining in everything, and yet I want to do it more than anything in the world. I mean, there's a line and a song on the new record about you know, you're looking into your daughter's eyes and at the same moment you're obsessing about a pill that's somewhere in the house. I mean, like that does not feel good.
No, it's horrible, and you're so right because then then you're in it. You know, the compulsion is there, the mental obsession is there.
You know, all bets are off. You know.
For me, I'm existing to get high. I can't get caught, so I have to be sneaky. I have to lie and I need more. Yeah, and I'm so depressed and I don't really want to be here and everyone kind of knows, but I'm good at hiding it. But like you know, all of a sudden, people are just kind of like, what's up with him? You know, And the worst part is just what it's doing. It's like toxic inside.
There's no good anymore, there's no spirituality, and I think that the trick is at that point, not the trick, but like the hardest part in that place is how do you find the willingness to start over again? Yep, because the diseases, Like, dude, do not tell your sponsor, do not tell your wife, do not tell anybody, Like you know, you don't want to let people down. You're
afraid of getting kicked out of the tribe. You don't want to go back to your home group and be like, guys, I did it again, Like they've already heard the story, you know, whatever it is. When really and I've gotten to this point, I'm like, I have you know, if I'm lucky, forty more years on this earth, that is not a lot of time, not a lot of time. And I do not want to hold on to some false pride about holding on to this thing that I've done and be a secret.
You know.
It's like the cliche we're as sick as our secrets. It's like, I need to get fucking honest with the people. I need to get honest to. That doesn't necessarily mean that I need to go on you know, Instagram and announce what happened, but it does mean that I need to get honest with the core people in my life because those are the people that can help save my life. And that part, it's the surrender, right, that is such an important word, willingness and surrender. Am I willing to
just surrender? Because what this is doing is not working. It's not working, and I fucking hate myself? How can I get out of this place?
Such a painful place to be? You know, relapse has been a part of your story, what do you think you've learned? Like, let's just take the most recent time, and we don't need to go into dates and when all that, it's not even important, right, But what do you think about the most recent time if you learn something that you feel like is helpful to carry forth in your variety or do you feel like the lessons
you already know them and you're not living them. I'm kind of curious, like how do you take something positive out of it?
You know, it's such a slippery slope of like what I say here, because you know you never want to like have someone listening that's like on the verge and be like, well, he said that he learned something from his.
Relapse, So like I felt like I needed to go learn something.
It's like, no, Like, the thing that I've learned is that, like I was in a lot of pain the last relapse, and I never want to go back there. So if you have any clean time and you're thinking about using I'll just preface it with like, hold on to that shit, call your sponsor, go to a fucking meeting, and like tap in with the people that you need to tap into and share your truth and tell people, Like the minute that you feel like you're even entertaining it, call
someone and snitch on that disease. That is the thing, and the disease is going to tell you don't call. Don't call anybody, hold on to it, keep that reservation tucked.
But that is what I have.
Learned time and time again, because the minute that you call somebody and you explain what's going on, you hear the insanity. Because you can't hear it in your own head, it's a lot easier for the disease to like manipulate because you are the disease.
It's up here.
I am this, so I can maneuver my way around these thoughts and this knowledge that I've acquired throughout the last fifteen years of experience in recovery and relapse. But when you feel that urge in any capacity, pick up the phone. Listen to your own voice. You're going to hear it. Your sponsor doesn't even mean to say anything, or somebody else in recovery doesn't even to respond, you'll be three minutes in and be like, Yep, this is
a horrible idea. This is a horrible idea. And I can almost guarantee you you're going to feel better with a five minute conversation or less. Doesn't have to be in therapy or whatever. That's great too, but really, you tell what's going on in five minutes and wanting to get loaded is going to dissipate. Whether it's to zero or it's a twenty percent or whatever, it's going to go way down. So that is what I have learned to snitch on the disease. And then for me also
it's like keeping up my practice. And this is a bit unique to me, but like I live on the road at the end of the year, I'll be out there for like you know, seven eight months out of the year, in different time zone, in different countries and all that. And one thing that I have learned is that I need to prioritize on the road. With the schedule. I can't just be like I'll do step work like
sometime this week. Like, No, you're writing every day for twenty minutes, and you're doing yoga every day for twenty minutes, you're meditating for twenty minutes. I'm trying to do this twenty twenty twenty every day on top of whatever recovery I'm doing. And I'm like, if I was doing twenty twenty twenty every day, meditation, yoga, and step work, I
can almost guarantee you I'm not going to relapse. Yeah, I mean there's no guarantees, but like the odds of me relapsing go down exponentially versus me just being like I'm on tour, you know, I'm clean.
No, that doesn't work for me. Yeah.
Yeah, I traveled for work when I came back again a lot, and it was hard. I mean, it does take a certain extra commitment and clarity to doing that when your schedule is so kind of random, And that's true of any habit, any behavior, anything. When there's no sort of steady context, it's harder to do. It just takes more effort, you know, And that idea about telling
on the disease. I mean, I think the thing that I found is like the sooner the better, right, because there comes a point you detail it in your song really well. Like I know I should call my sponsor, but I don't want to. You know, the earlier we intervene has been my lesson with any emotional thing that's going on, the sooner I see what's going on and get help and share it, the better chance I have if it gets to a certain point. It's like it just feels like a title wave completely the last thing,
and I know we're tight on time here. I just wanted to talk briefly about the song Teeters, which is a song. It sounds like a love song, but it's a love song to your drug. But near the end you say what I thought was love was really just my disease. I always thought the problem was you, and I couldn't believe when I learned that the whole time, my issue is me.
Bit you kill my uncle, your fucking shouble socially acceptable and no so subtle. You ruined my life and I fucking loved you, promised relief and left me with the rusty shovel and some bustard rubble pieces of my.
Life that she destroyed.
Was once freedom and joy was now depression being unemployed, and I knew I.
Had to change it and face it and checked in the rehabbing twenty eight days later.
I remembered who I really was. I remember where I'm really from.
I remember the beauty of the present moment that you only get when you connect to the creator, and the breath inside the chest that fully fills your lungs. I found the people with the same allergy, and what I thought was love was really just my disease. I always thought the problem was you and couldn't believe when I learned that the whole time.
My issue was me. I'll ride with you, live for you, my shot and true love I never knew.
So we talk about the disease of alcoholism or addiction or all that, but you're also pointing to there's very much something inside of us that is kind of at the heart of that. What does that mean to you? You know, when you realize the problem is you, that.
I'm responsible for my disease. You know, it's not my fault, it's not a moral or ethical shortcoming.
It's just that now that I had.
The tools I need to take my medicine, and my medicine comes in the form of recovery. And if I don't, then eventually that other wolf is fed and it's on my shoulders. In a beautiful way, I don't look at it as like, oh, man, no, I gotta do you know now I get to be in recovery today. I love that I have a program that gets me closer connected to my higher power, to my God. I love that I have a program that reminds me, like, YO, be of service, you know, help other people. That's the
quickest way to get out of self. This is a self center disease. Yeah, go help somebody else. I'm feeling like I'm in my head. Things aren't working out the way that I wanted to. I'm like, am I in self will? Or am I accepting right now that I'm exactly where I'm supposed to be. I have all these tools to bring me back here to the present moment and to realize that this life is beautiful. Being in
recovery is beautiful. The disease of addiction as ugly and baffling and conniving as it is, I'm so grateful that I have it because it's given me a means in which I get.
To connect to something that is so much bigger than me.
I think that a lot of people go through life just like getting by and everything's okay. And for me, I'm an extreme person. You know, it's big, it's grandiose, or it's like the depths of Hell. But those depths of Hell have taught me so much that when I come back to the breath, that when I can be here truly connected, where I can control the thoughts that I'm having and look at how I'm spinning narratives or becoming a victim or wanting to escape for you know, all these things.
I have a means in which to.
Do that through the twelve step program that I work, and what a beautiful life it is. It's introduced me to so many amazing people. You know, I'm not someone that likes to do interviews like at all. I don't really like it. I could talk to you all day. It's easy. It's like, I love this shit. My manager was like, it's about recovery, so it might be heavy.
I'm like, great, great, I don't want to talk about myself and music and you know, talk about what my kids did, and small talk with some random stranger on Zoom or whatever we're on, I'm like, no, I want to talk about recovery because this shit saved my life. And what a gift it has been to be able to share with others, you know, relatively protecting my anonymity.
I'm sure you know I step all over the traditions and whatnot, but I care about saving people's lives, man, Yeah, and not myself, but telling them how I save my own. That's the greatest gift is to be like man, I was in a seemingly hopeless state of denial and I wanted to die and kill myself and I couldn't.
Get out of it. And this is how I did it.
And everyone's recovery is different, but at the core, at the very piece, whether it's a triangle or a diamond, you know, we have these like founding, rooted places that we can always come back to and live clean, just for today, one day at a time, and I love it.
Well, I think that is a beautiful place to wrap up. Thank you so much. I also have enjoyed this and could do it all day, but thank you for your music, thank you for being so honest in your music, in your life. I do think it helps a lot of people. Like you said, you're an example of starting over and that's really important.
We need that.
I appreciate it and thank you for the parable and the platform that you have.
And talking about this.
I think that you know, sometimes all you need is just that one little reminder can be the most simple thing. You can go to a meeting and be like, oh, why am I here, and then one person says one sentence that could completely change the course of your entire existence.
Yeah, you just have to stick around for it.
Yep, keep coming back. Well, if you ever want to expand upon this, I would be happy to have you anytime.
I appreciate it. Brother, thank you so much for having you.
Ye take care you too.
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