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Download the free Angie mobile app today or visit Angie.com. That's ANGI.com. Welcome to The Official Game of Thrones Podcast House of the Dragon. I'm Jason Consipcione. And I am Greta Johnson. Jason Holy cats we are backhouse of the dragon season two is here. It is good to be back, but also horrible and terrible to be back. Yes, extreme same. Fortunately, later on in this episode we have the wonderful chance to get to talk it all out with not one but two members of Team Green together.
Olivia Cooke who plays Dowager Queen Allison and Phia Saban who plays her daughter Queen Helena. But first we're going to unpack that intense season two premiere titled A Son for a Son which was written by our dear friend, the FOP friend of the pod, who will run a Ryan Condole and was directed by Alan Taylor. Now be warned if you have not seen the debut episode of season two of House of the Dragon, we're going to be talking about everything that happens therein. So stop now, watch it, come back.
Should we get into it? Should we do like a quickie recap and then really dig in? Sure, let's do it. We open with the new intro animation that is quite fascinating and then we go to the north where Jiseras is treating with Lord Craig and Stark. Lord Craig and agrees to send some old guys to help Queen Reneera, but their meeting is broken up by the arrival of a raven which brings the news of Prince Lucerus's death.
On Dragon Stone, Reneese has been patrolling the gullet and the black fleet has been very busy shutting down trade going to King's Landing. Damon wants Reneese to do more though. He wants to fly his dragon to King's Landing to fight Vagar. In King's Landing King I got meets with his small council and he is eager to get the war going as is his brother Prince Aamond.
But Otto and Allison say no, let's let diplomacy take its course, let's slow our roll. Later we learn that Kristen Cole has been having brunch, which is a euphemism we will use with Queen Allison. Egon gets to work hearing petitions from the small folk. Jace returns with news from the north and then Reneera tells her council I want Aamond Targaryen. Damon takes that direction and runs with it.
He hires some assassins to sneak into the castle to kill Aamond and the result is shattering heart-breaking, almost too terrible to talk about the assassins blood and cheese. Sneak into the castle, they don't locate Aamond, but they do locate the King's children, Prince Jeharris and Princess Jeharris.
They are twins and very difficult to tell apart, so they force Queen Helena to tell them which one is the son. She does fleeing with Princess Jeharris as blood and cheese decapitate Prince Jeharris. So Jason, obviously we are going to dive in pretty hard, but first of all I would love to hear your initial reactions to the season 2 premiere. It was a hell of an episode.
Oh man, just excitement tinged with a significant amount of dread and sadness because as we saw in this episode it is going to get ruthless, violent and we're going to lose people and I'm kind of dreading it. Yeah, even though I'm very excited for it. What were your thoughts?
I think season 1 did a really good job of illustrating how difficult it is to be a mother in this world and I think what this episode did really beautifully was kind of build on that and talk about the specific difficulty of being both Queen and mother.
Right? Because you have Rainier out, searching for her son, and then of course you have Helena making this horrific choice at the end of the episode 2. And the way that those two roles conflict I think was really very heartbreaking and touching really throughout the episode. Let's start with the new intro animation, which I loved. Yes, wonderful, gorgeous.
Kreda, what do you think is the fact that we are switching styles in the opening credits? We've gone from these kind of gears and these metal gears to textiles. Well, as a fiber artist myself, Jason, I have been a knitter for like 20 years. I think it's all beautiful. And I know you can actually like identify the historical scenes that are happening, but even just from like a pure, just like artistic point of view, like they're gorgeous, you know. Yeah, it's really cool.
This opening reminds me of the Bayou tapestry, the huge and historic embroider tapestry from the 11th century that chronicles the Norman conquest of England 1066.
I picked out a lot of cool stuff in there. It seems like there's a lot of the Lerian history going back to the necromancers, the doom, you see Aegon's conquest, you see the burning of heron hall, you see Torren Stark, who is mentioned in this episode, the King Who Nelt, you see Mego or the cruel dying on the throne, you see the great council of 101, which we saw at the beginning of season one.
And then you see the black first screen divide, then we go to the North, our first view of the North, Greta. This opening was a huge nod to Throne's fans, I thought. These are new sets. This is all new stuff happening, but you still feel so familiar, doesn't it? It really did.
Even the whole like winter is coming, right? Like it's there. It's happening. I thought that was a really nice way, especially given the pause we had between season one and season two of like, oh yeah, no, we're in familiar territory. This feels good. I also thought just that initial narration was really great. Let's take a listen to it. The North was a great duty to the Seven Kingdoms, one older than any other.
Since the days of the first men, we have stood as guardians against the cold and the dark. Through its long tradition, the Knights watched cultivated its strength from doomed men who had their life as their only position. But my ancestor, Torin Stark, began a tradition by making and offering at the onset of winter. One in ten men from our household was to be chosen to fortify the watch. This is not a sentence, but an honor.
Winter is coming. And it's actually coming. You saw that at the end of season one with the kind of gray skies. You hear numerous characters throughout this episode talk about the fact that it's late summer. And I thought they did an amazing job taking you into the culture of the North with winter coming. So, Jason is there as an emissary of his mother's regime. He gets a promise from Lord Craig and Stark.
The young warden of the North, it is tradition in the North as winter approaches that any older warriors would be looking for a place to go to fight with the expectation that they would not come back. I think when Craig in promises the couple thousand gray beards to Jason, it's not a lot of men, but it's a powerful gesture because those men are going to fight fiercely without any expectation that they would go home.
That's really intense. Yeah. A fascinating I thought too. So in the books, Craig in had a younger brother that died. And I was struck by his kind of resemblance to Jason and the fact that they're the same age that I think that Jason and Craig in who are young, who are just learning to wield power, who are kind of the same age and who are missing brothers now.
They're also both so honor bound, you know, you can just tell that they both are devoted to family and duty and honor and all those things. So I think that also binds them pretty strongly already, you know. Really interesting tidbit to learn that King Jheros and good Queen Allison, who were really important to the development of the watch.
Queen Allison urged her husband to give the watch more land with which they could support themselves. That during their visit, their dragons were too scared to cross over which is fascinating. I thought so too. Yeah, that was a really good moment. We go to Dragon Stone where Reneis is patrolling the gullet. The Valyrian fleet is blockading the capital and that's taking its toll, but of course, Damon is eager for more. But where's the Queen? Queen Reneira is nowhere to be found.
She has been gone for days, too long she is exposed. She is grieving. The mother grieves as the Queen sherks her duties. We can surmise that it's been a week, a few days, a couple weeks at most since the death of Lucerus. But overall, like such a through line of sadness starting with the Raven bearing these very, very sad tidings. And then of course, just the grief that is weighing down on Reneira who it seems has been since she got the news endlessly searching for Luc's body.
Right. And Reneis is like, well, she needs to get some closure on this situation before she can do what she needs to do, which is also just devastating. I loved Reneis' high handed treatment of Damon and also her empathy for Reneira. Like, yeah, yeah, Damon has lost people, lost his wife, of course. But you never get the feeling that he's sad about it, lost his brother, King Viserys, which must have affected him deeply, but he do. Do you get a sense of how Damon carries grief?
That's such a great question. I mean, at all, he also lost a wife by murder. So like, I don't know. Who did that? Crazy. Did they ever catch that guy? I don't think they did. He was wearing a cloak, I remember. Yeah. So yeah, I don't know. It's a great question. How does Damon process his feelings? I would love to get Matt Smith on the show to ask him about it. Yeah, just a devastating moment when Reneira finally finds proof that Lucerys has died.
She essentially, you know, has just confirmed that her son has died and then she goes back to her small council with a very clear mission. Your council stands at the ready, your grace. I will fly to Harrenholl at your command and set our toehold in the riverlands. Your grace, my Lord Husband's blockade of the gullet moves into place, all seaborn travel and trade to King's Landing, or soon be cut off. I want Damon to take her in.
Such an intense moment. That is Reneira's only sentence that she says in the entire episode right there. Is it strategy or is it vengeance? I think we have to ask the question of Reneira, right, in her mind state. Yes, I think she's been given a couple of important strategic updates with which to make decisions and her decision is just kind of an open ended kill Damon. Yeah, what do you do? It's very natural. Of course, that she should feel this way.
But, you know, thinking about where this in particular instruction leads. I'm not sure Reneira, I think she needs more time, sadly. Yeah, that does seem one where it's like, take a minute. Let's talk about it more later. And here are the things we can do in the meantime. So let's switch over to King's Landing to see where team Green began the episode. We get our first look at King Egon as the guy in the big chair here. I was a little impressed.
Sam, I was alarmed to be impressed. Yeah, I mean, it's a very, very low bar, but it's super low. There's a scene with him in Helena where he's looking for his son. And he seems so chipper, which even that surprised me given, you know, he was very resistant to take the throne, not that long ago. But, but yeah, he seems like he's actually stepping up in a way that I was not expecting at all. Now, he doesn't know where Jairis goes to school. Fair point. What does my child do during the day?
He did know when Jairis wanted a pony ride though. Yeah. And he did seem like a kind of doting father in his way in his way, which again, I was a little impressed. What did you think about Egon pulling Prince Jairis out of school to come to the small council chamber? I thought it reflected actually rather positively on Egon. It's a good question. I don't know. I'm a little more conflicted about it. Like shouldn't he just be in school?
Can he really contribute much in the small council? I know pony rides are fun, but like, is that really the best place for him at this point as the heir to the throne? I reacted to Egon taking the prince to the small council chamber and even his nearly allowing the prince to ride Lord Thailand, Lannister like the pony. I saw that as a reflection of how he wishes his parents had treated him had brought him into things.
I suppose they had always been telling him you're going to be King one day. Most of them. I was going to say, have they been telling him some of them, not all of them. I saw this as a reflection of, you know, I wish that I had been brought into councils early and introduced to these things in a different way rather than treated in the way that he was, which is kind of ignored by his dad to be honest. Yeah. Viserys definitely was not offering up pony rides. Not at all.
I think it did show also an element of to your point how much Egon loves this kid and how much he wants him involved. Yeah. You know, I think Egon is like not the smartest guy and obviously we've seen him be awful, but I think he weirdly has a good read on people and Thailand is such a pleaser, such a sequious person. That's a good point. That I think that Egon is off put by that and it triggered something of the cruel streak in him that when you see somebody who's so serving and spineless.
Well, let's see if you'll let my child ride you like a pony around the small council chamber. I thought that was an interesting, interesting character moment for Egon. And then there's the way he handled Otto during the scene with the petitioners on the iron throne. Let's play that clip. Iron costs have grown. Alone scorpion takes weeks to build. To put it simply, we are struggling. If we could but have the crowns coined before we started work, it would bring great relief.
Not just to me, but to all dismissed serving your cause. You shall be paid and paid well. My army cannot win a war without your weapons. You should continue their making. Our victory depends on the efforts of the small folk. Egon in the way he is addressing you the hammer underlines the fact that you and the people like him who are toiling for the benefit of the realm to arm them and other things to feed the realm. Their work is important and must be supported.
When Otto hears Egon say this, he turns on his heel. He was about to walk up to the throne and say, listen, rising iron prices are a thing, but we can't be cutting discounts to everybody that just walks in here. And when Egon underlines that fact, we need to support the small folk who are supporting us, Otto turns around. I thought that was a big moment for Egon. And the realm. Yes. I also really liked that because I think in season one, we got a lot of conversation about the realm.
But we didn't actually meet that many small folk. And I think it's really interesting to notice that even just in this episode alone, we have met a number of new characters who are professional people, who the hammer or she perters or whatever it is who are trying to make things work and also to your point, like trying to support the realm as well.
Fascinating moment after this, when Larris pulls the king side weird, I think, like a little in a, felt a little in a probi, but like pulled the king side, like I want to talk to you. And then immediately starts in with, well, you know, Otto was your dad's hand. Don't you want to forge your own path? I thought this was a little early for this kind of strong suggestion on such a huge decision early in his reign.
But Egon, I think, is considering it is amenable to maybe a move like this. What were your thoughts about this? It was earlier in this episode, right where Larris tries to talk to Allison. Right. He says, I tried to reach you, but you were having brunch. You were occupied. But I think partly from Larris's point of view, like it's clear that he doesn't have the brunch time with Allison that he's used to.
And so he's trying to angle. And of course, at this point also, there's the argument of like, Allison has lost some power. Yes, it's pretty clear that she doesn't have as much of a hold on Egon as she or Otto would like. So then, you know, I think it is audacious, but I think it also totally makes sense that Larris would try to suck up to him and be like, hey, you want me on your team? Because I'm happy to help out.
You know, yeah, I would imagine that Larris here is angling either for himself or for someone that he can read easily to be the next hand. Yeah. What did you think of Allison and Otto's relationship? I think that, you know, obviously season one, she was very, very clearly not even you couldn't even call it a junior partner. She was out of her as a piece. She's merely a piece. Yeah. But they've come to something like a partnership now. What did you think of that?
You know, there's that moment where Otto's like, it's going to have to be violent. And Allison just like, yeah, but how violent? Like I still wonder if there is still a divergence and like Otto is probably much more willing to be ruthless in a way that Allison is not. But the fact that they're having that conversation at all, I think is a really good sign because to your point, I'm not sure that he would have even respected her enough to try and talk to her about it last season.
I thought that was a huge moment. Totally. The fact that she could call him out at all, I think is, yeah, is monumentous for sure. Speaking of Allison. Allison and Kristen Cole. What do you think? I'm happy for him. Am I happy for them? What I will say is that Allison got a lot of action in this episode. Good for her. And it seems like she actually enjoyed it, which is a shift for her in her previous. You know, we've seen her having some other branches that seemed deeply unpleasant.
Completely agree. I think she should get hers for sure. Did you also initially with that scene by yourself asking, who's down there? I did. I was like, oh, no, not Laris. Laris is gonna do that. Who not, Laris. I'm happy for them. I love that Allison's like, we can't. This is never happening again. And not again. We cannot do this again, which raises the question of, this is the first time that such a thing has happened. Or clearly, this is early in whatever this is, this situation ship.
This situation ship. So yeah, I have another question about that, which is, is that shocking though, Kristen and Allison. I was shocked. This is not in the source material. Oh, really? That's exciting. I love when that happens. It really affects, obviously, events going forward, the power structure in the realm. I think it was also overall. The episode was about Allison, taking control of her body. She dismisses her handmaidens who are like scrubbing her and brushing.
She's like, no, get out of here. I will do this myself. Yeah. And then even in ending the brunch by saying, we can't do this again. It's her that is driving this. Yeah. And perhaps her who drove the dalliance, we see at the end of the episode. So I thought I was, I was really impressed with Allison in this episode. And I think that if there is hope for peace at all in the realm, I think it was almost completely with her.
The River Lords will either declare for me or they will meet Vegar and Sunfire together. And we can burn the blockade while we're at it. Renera has dragons as well. Mine are bigger. If we lose the dragons to wall, they'll be no calling them back. We must proceed cautiously. Fat old Lord Tully will either raise my banner or see his burn. We should fly to Riverrun. You are the king, your grace. You must not put yourself at risk.
And Vegar is needed here to deter Renera from attacking in retribution for the death of her son. A lot of interesting things. There is kind of an interesting acknowledgement that if you let the dragons go fight, they will take over and they will have a mind of their own in those affairs. I thought that was interesting too. I also thought it was interesting to just hear through the argument of like, well, ours are bigger. But also that could even be more catastrophic, right?
To what you're saying. Yeah. And it's kind of double edged sword of having dragons. Obviously extremely powerful, the problem being the king has to ride one of them. And then the king's brother. And those are two of the most valuable people in this. And you can't lose them. So how can you even commit a dragon? And I think that is going to be part of it. You know, we're going to those kind of decisions are going to be very perilous going forward. Fat old Lord Tully, those are King Aegon's words.
Not mine. Is Lord Grover Tully, whose grandchildren and heirs are named Oscar, Elmo and Kermit? Thanks, George R. Martin. Yes. Absolutely. We love to see it. But clearly, I think, you know, from from from this war council and from Reneas, Spets get hot in the Riverlands quite soon. Yes, they're all talking about the Riverlands. I also think it is interesting that in both cases, there are a lot of people surrounding the main person in power who want to talk strategy.
But when it comes to the main person in power, it's a lot more about like, okay, but let's just go wild. You know, like they're both being taught. Well, I guess nobody really tried to talk Renear down, but there was kind of a similar like, here are all the things we could do. And then either Aegon or Renear are like, or we could just ruin it all.
It's a great point because I mean, I found myself pulling for Otto in this scene against, you know, all expectation because he's the one right now who's saying, okay, maybe this has gone too far. I'm sending letters. I mean, contact with a lot of people. We have to wait for the letters to come back. Patience from the string. You know, let's let's calm down right now. And we are in like, just let events happen and we will win. Errors were made in the hours following Kimber series's death.
We mustn't compound them. You've already demonstrated your might, your grace. We must now favor patience and restraint. I send Ravens by the hour, many and more houses will declare for you in time. History and precedent will come to your side. And I found myself being like, yeah, I hope they listen to Otto who, by the way, caused all of this. Right, of course. Let's talk about the war parties in both team green and team black.
Like, obviously, I think team black, it is Damon himself that is pushing for the very aggressive strategies. And in fact, masterminds based off of Reneira's instruction, get Amand. One of the most ruthless events that we've seen in this world in house of the dragon in Game of Thrones. Any like what follows from that is awful. And then on the team green side, I was really interested to see Kristen Cole and Amand the way those two.
One, find themselves kind of on the outside of things and have clearly formed a little bit of a partnership of their own in terms of finding sounding boards for which they can voice their frustrations with how the things are going. And I thought that was that has the potential to be a very, very powerful duo. Yeah, one thing I really enjoyed about this episode in general is that, you know, and Ryan Condole talks about this too, like the world has expanded in this season.
You're already seeing it. And that means we're getting more characters, but we're also getting just new character combinations that we hadn't had in season one, which is fun. And that could mean brunches, but it is also like Kristen Cole and Amand talking or Laris talking to Egon. You know, there are a lot of just like conversations between characters that we haven't seen before. I like that the deck is kind of getting shuffled up. It's interesting. I love that as well.
I also, you know, it's just like interesting to see Amand's reaction to basically being the person that is being blamed in King's Landing for how the war is going. It's very clear like everybody. Everybody kind of openly acknowledges, hey, Amand blew that one. And now we find ourselves in a place that we didn't necessarily want to be. He seems very uncomfortable with that and eager to fix it in his own way.
Do you think Otto was strong enough in his telling Amand and Kristen Cole, who he basically was like, hey, get back to work. Do you think he was strong enough in saying, hey, stop planning stuff. No, zero percent. I agree. I think he should have been much like, hey, don't stop it. Yeah, this is like out of turn. This is not your role. Yeah, I think so. I do wonder, do you think Amand knows about Kristen Cole and Allison?
No, I think if anybody knows, it's maybe Larus who kind of had that little wink and a nod when he said, oh, I heard you wouldn't dispose. I couldn't get a hold of you. So I think he, and obviously as he talks about the fact that he has cleared out all the spies in the red heap and we can surely assume as replace them with his own, right? So he knows stuff. But I doubt that anyone else has any idea.
Like Otto would shut it down immediately. Right? Yeah, that can't be an alliance that anybody is, anybody would be happy about really. Yeah, I think Kristen Cole would be on the first wagon to the wall if this was known. Yeah, if you got to live. Yeah, yeah. Okay, Greta. I think it's time to talk about the final part of the episode, starting with Damon's mission to hire blood and cheese. This is my friend. Tonight he's going to be your friend. You're to find and slay the Prince Aimentargarian.
He has silver hair in one eye. I should be easy enough to find. But I understand he's quite good in a fight. You want to take caution. One half. We'll get the other one it's done. All right. Well, if we can't find him for non book readers, blood and cheese are the names of the two assassins, the the soldier of the city watch and the rat catcher respectively who brutally murder young Prince to Harris in front of Helena.
One is named cheese. Obviously that's the rat catcher and the other blood for reasons that I think are obvious as well. His amenability to doing terrible things. Brutal assassination of Prince to Harris. Brutal. Essentially in front of his mother. That was horrible. And of course, to make matters worse, Helena sort of predicted the danger, right?
And so, you know, I think that's the reason why she's afraid of rats earlier in the episode when she's, you know, she says she's more afraid of rats than dragons. And it was another one of those prophecies that people just completely dismissed. Agons like, isn't the queen quirky? You'd think that after this. Agon at least would be like, oh, you know what? She did make the comment about the rats. Like when I'm waiting for them to notice this was terrible blood and cheese.
This was a moment that I think book readers are probably waiting for and dreading a little bit. Certainly I was dreading and it was awful. It was as awful as I expected. The way the tension ratcheted up for that last quarter of the episode or whatever it was was just you knew something terrible was going to happen. I mean, very clearly this is going to be a stain on Renearest reputation. Oh, it can't be anything other than that. For sure, like this is not what she asked for.
This is not what she asked for. So there's a moment where blood and cheese are like, okay, but what if we find Amond and then Damon kind of gets this strange look on his face and then it cuts. Do you think Damon said anyone you can get or did he specifically asked for this or did he just leave? Do you think he asked for this? I mean, I hate thinking about it, but yes, I do think he asks for it.
I think he wanted to destroy the whole like team green side of the Targaryen line and that was how he could do it. I also think he specifically asked for this. And I think that you're right. Damon's goal is all out total war. And I think he knows that this is the way to get it. This is just going to cause this war to spiral completely out of control now.
And again, you know, part of what I think Amond's annoyance frustration at the way he's being seen in the realm now is also the fact that he now has the reputation of a kin slayer. And Renearest going to have that too. And it's just really, really sad. I can't even imagine Kalena's mind state after that.
Also interesting to think about the way it was portrayed and also not portrayed was a really interesting choice from the point of view of the director and, you know, the way that scene played out was fast and immensely thankful that we didn't see anything 1000% but even to hear it is still so traumatic. Right. I mean, it's yeah, it was really artfully done. It was awful. And also, you know, I found myself thinking once again a failure of the Kingsguard, we failed during the kid fight.
And here we are failing in the biggest where are where is everyone? Well, we know where the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard was at this moment. And I would imagine that that is going to be a point of conversation in the red keep like sure where was the leader of our security force during the hours when this was happening. I could see that. What do you think the effect of this is going to be on the war on the realm on stability on the ability to bring peace.
I mean, we had just seen before this that really touching scene in which Allison lights a candle for all the all the fallen including Lucerus Valerian, Renerus son. I think it's all fucked. Yeah. I think we both have sort of been like, oh, Egon's actually doing a pretty decent job, but he already seemed fairly difficult terrain and I have a feeling that after this he's going to be right. I completely agree. It is absolutely reasonable to assume now that whatever rains there were.
That's over now and Egon and Amund, whoever has the most brutal, most effective, most warlike plan, we'll get a hearing from the king who I fully expect to be. Like, let me get on my dragon now. Yeah, I think that tracks. I'm also very curious to see how Renerus going to respond to this. I'll say this. I hope she's horrified. That's a good way of putting that. Well, as we talked about that ending sequence was extremely difficult to watch.
I will say I'm thankful we were able to talk it out and process things a bit. I am feeling a little bit better. I hope listeners are too. How about you, Jason? I feel like we need a little check in here. Same. Shall we go to our interview with Olivia and Fiya? Let's do it. We are so excited to be joined today by our favorite mother daughter, pair Olivia Cook, who plays Allison and Fiya Saban, who plays Queen Helena. Welcome you to. Thank you. Thank you for having us.
Fiya, obviously the ending of this first episode is completely devastating for your character. What was it like when you first read that script? Like, did you know it was coming? There's so many Game of Thrones house of the dragon fans in the world, even before the show existed, that if you sort of give people a sniff that you're in something like house of the dragon, and then they know that world at all. And you say, oh, I'm playing Helena. They're like, you know what happens to you, right?
I was being told by people on the train that I was sitting next to, and I did know. I'd seen it all a lot. Yeah, so kind of knew it was coming in that sense. But nothing prepares you for opening it up and being like, okay, they're doing that episode one. That's punchy. And I just really like when I read in the scripts, how simple they made it. It's all just set in the present in the immediate moment. And, you know, there's not like too much dialogue.
They're not trying to do too much with that. I think hopefully they just wrote something simple that speaks for itself. Yeah. Do you think either Alison or Helena ever imagined that Reneer or her side was capable of something like this? No. I don't think so. I think Alison is expecting retaliation. And I think she's probably expecting, you know, an eye for an eye. I think she's probably sensed that Reneer is going to go after one of her sons, but killing an innocent child.
This is the most shocking thing in the world. But I think more than that, Alison just holds herself accountable for it all, because she was having sex with the head of the King's Guard and the castle should have been unlocked down. And it wasn't. There was a real breach in security and she completely takes that on as her own fault. But this is the problem, isn't it? Like, I wouldn't even say that Reneer is capable of it. Because, you know, she didn't do it.
No. And actually, that is the heartbreaking thing about this show is that everybody feels that their flaws or their actions, they center themselves in the tragedy. That's what this whole family does, constantly. And the reality of it is, is that, I mean, some might say there's just a sort of Targaryen curse. This stuff's going to happen. But I also think it's really interesting that everybody feels responsible in that way.
And you just see loads of different people coping with the fact that they blame themselves. Yeah, in so many different ways. Exactly. I think you're totally right. It seems to me that Reneer is not capable of it. Like, she would not do that. And she didn't, right? I mean, that's very important. No, she didn't. But Alison doesn't know that. I think within this, like, family dynamic, you don't really know what people are capable of, because things have gotten so extreme, so fast.
And the time period that were in is sort of born from battle and legend and bloodshed. Lulled into a false sense of security. Yeah. Yeah. Fear, Helena is given an impossible choice when confronted by blood and cheese to point out which of her children is the prince. What do you think is going through her mind in that moment? I think it's an interesting one. I really wonder what people think about it.
I think that what she hears from them is we are extremely dangerous men, and we are more than capable of killing all of you. And you can make this easy for yourself, or you can make this harder for yourself. And obviously, there's nothing easy about it. I would think it's unfair to say that somebody, like, braver would be like, no, you won't have either of them. I don't think that's an option. I genuinely don't believe that's an option in that moment.
And I actually think it's kind of powerful that she's honest the first time because I think that is exemplary of how high the stakes are for her. Like, I am not going to mess this up, or I don't have an option here. This is about saving a child's life. Well, that's interesting too because they do think to your point also, like, there's a real integrity to that, you know, which is kind of all she has at that point in a lot of ways, right? I think so. I think that that's true about Helena.
I think this is something I've been thinking about actually since people have been asking me questions about Helena for the first time. What's the world like where Helena gets all the validation that her thoughts are interesting or important, how different would she be, would she be more in touch with or like proud of her intuition that she has her foresight and therefore, like, see it as a power.
But the reality is, and this is the other thing that I just keep realising talking about the show, is that, and it's also so true to family dynamics, is that like every child thinks that they're the one that's sort of been let down the most a little bit. And I think you really see that with the brothers and with her. It's like, we've all been hard done by, and it's a bit of the pain Olympics.
But I think that what she does have, even though she hasn't been encouraged to have the most free communication style, she is actually really honest. Yeah, yeah. She's literal in the middle of the ways as well. Which is quite pure in the world, which is like, we must strike them with the darkness. Yeah, it's all metaphorical. Yeah, sort of. Well, and even like I'm worried about the rats, right? It's like, oh yeah, that's actually pretty literal. Turns out, totally.
That is something that we've talked about on this pod quite a bit, is Helena's capacity, apparently, for a prophecy. And we've wondered, when are people around Helena going to notice that she says things that happen to come true? When are people going to pay attention to her? I've brought up the Cassandra archetype before in these interviews. You know, that that is part of the whole Shabbat, the validation doesn't come.
For people who maybe need a Greek myth reminder on Cassandra, can you explain? It's a beautiful analogy, but I wonder if you can just sort of like fill people in on who she is and why she seems similar to Helena. Was it the fall of Troy? Maybe it was the fall of Troy, which is... That sounds kind of links to the... We can go glit on this. Yeah, on this level. Beautiful, thank you Olivia.
My understanding of it is that, and actually randomly, I played her at Drumschool with four other girls, which means I really should know. I think it was in Trojan women, so yeah, I think that she predicted the fall of Troy. And the curse is not only that she has this foresight, but built into it, is that extra heartbreak that the curse is that no one will believe. Yeah, so sad.
Maybe Alison will see it first, because we're the closest, but I think if we hadn't been forced together in this season, I don't think she would notice it, because I think... When a mother looks at a child, or at least from my experience with my family, they sort of just... They see you as an extension of them, and so anything that's different, there's a complete blind spot to it, because they've not got the experience or the capacity for that.
And so I think she's constantly trying to mold Helena into the vision of herself, into a mini Alison, because that's the only thing she knows. Yeah, I think that's so true. I think that's why mother daughter relationships are so interesting, and why they're so important, because exactly that.
It's almost like your propensity for closeness in the relationship is so high that you can also be let down the most by that person. It's just like deeper for some people, and also I guess if you're lucky, like you can reach highs together of understanding. But that also means that you can feel the most let down or misunderstood. And that's why it's painful between Alison and Helena. For sure, because I think also she feels Helena's pain, so deep. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Oh. Beautiful.
So we'll live you. How is Alison at this moment in time? It's something we've talked about a fair amount, even just with this one episode, because it's like, in some ways I feel like she does have more agency than ever before, but also things are not going well. It's interesting, isn't it, because I don't think she realized how big of an exchange of power it would be to put her son on her on the throne and then become the Dowager.
And I think she always felt that she would have the of her sons and would be able to shape in the shadows. But when that title is removed, the power really ebbs from her and they see her in a completely different way, they don't see her anymore. And her voice becomes less and less heard at this more council chamber and within the kingdom itself. It's a place where Alison just never thought she would be.
She was sort of indoctrinated to be this to be like a mini hand to the king, you know, without the title. She can't exercise any of that and sort of feels like she's in a car that and the brakes aren't working and she can't do anything about it. And she has lost the trust in her staff, so she sends it away, so she feels more alone than ever and more paranoid than ever. They were getting way too involved in the bath. They were getting way too involved in the bath. Back off.
So yeah, we meet her a really, really interesting point in her story and also in her personal development as well. The relationship with Christian call, how did that happen? Many, many theory, many, many discussions. There were bits and bobs, like there were longing looks in the later half of last season that was sort of cut out and different and different sides to each other. And I think young Alison sort of professes her instant attraction for Christian call with the God, he's don't if.
He's don't just, he's don't just. And I think that sort of flame for him has sort of lived very quietly in Alison this whole time. And I think they became closer as he became her personal night and her person protect her. Strange things happen in grief and in death and sex is sort of this like the antithesis of death really and I think she's sort of even though she's grieving the loss of her husband, it feels liberated from being this caretaker.
And I just, I mean, this was our sort of like head cannon stuff because it's not written, but we sort of thought it happened maybe like literally like days after the death of Viseric and they got became closer in Alison's grief. And I think it's really teenage. I think it's really teenage for Alison. She's never been able to have a relationship that's born out of passion. True, it's almost like her coming of age, like after her husband died.
Yeah, she's born all these children, which she was just a child. Literally. She's like on Rumsbringer. It is just a bit like she's lived, she's lived for other people and she's lived by the rules. So exactly that this is just a little thing that she's taking for herself within her grief. She can't even have that. She can't even have that. It's rough in it. It is rough. I don't think Alison smiles this season. I don't even know if Scott Taisy will.
I mean, I will say it is exciting to see her seeking out pleasure. She didn't get to take her own needs into account at all in season one. Yeah, and if there's anyone more adept at serving, it's Christian Cole. So true. So yeah, she's having a great time with that. As we say, it does seem like Alison trusts Christian. Do you think that's a fair characterization? Yeah, she does. He's sort of the only man that she can trust. She doesn't really trust her father.
She definitely doesn't trust her son. She doesn't really trust anyone at this mall council table. Maybe Maester or while maybe she trusts him. He's so nice. He's so lovely. But he's sort of a bit too bipartisan for her liking. Yeah, he's a bit, yeah. Whereas whatever Alison says, Christian will be like, yeah, they're a fucking bitch. And she sort of needs someone like that. Because there's no one else she can say it to.
She trusts Helena, but it's a different relationship. That's a mother daughter. She wouldn't impart her sort of grievances. And I think Helena would be like, TMI. And also, I think there is just like a massive dose of attraction there, which has made this sort of relationship fizz along for a long time. I mean, a crush is like amazingly powerful, isn't it? Like that can make a boring week in the castle like something to live for.
Yeah, exactly. And there's not much for her to really occupy her time with. Especially now, you know, a big part of her life, which was caring for Fisero, some sort of ruling in his stead has been taken away. Yeah. And underneath Hoppy, he's new Hoppy. Get on the horse. But also not to make it feel too reductive, I think. I think it's something that she's desperately needed. I think it's incredibly cathartic for her.
And it's key to her development and it's huge for sort of seeing what life can be like away from this world. You know, she's been so myopic for such a long time. And now she's like physically feeling and thinking about what she wants for herself. Yeah, it's also that activates something else. So much of both Alison and Helena's rules as queens is about having children creating errors. How would you describe each of your characters as mothers?
Really simply. I think there are a huge part of her routine and a massive like source of safety for her and their little world and their imagination and all of that is something that she like really appreciates. I was going to say I don't think she's changing nappies, but I don't know. What do you think? I think with Helena there's more of like an earthiness. And so I think she would sort of want to get stuck in.
Yeah, I agree. I know I was about to say that. It's an amazing source of like structure and love and it's very reciprocal love. And I think that's what's important about it for her is that that relationship is almost really simple in it's like how clear the need is. And that's not something that is a simple topic in this family because actually the need is so strong that it clouds things like I think the tragedy of the dynamic of the greens is how much they need each other.
And it's almost like each other every single time every single time we're not met and then the damage is deeper and deeper. Whereas that relationship with those kids the need is like pure. So yeah, I retract I think the nappies I think she's in there with the nappies. But it's also you're a queen as well. So I wonder how much of that you'd be allowed to do so true.
I think for Alison it's so hard she had kids when she was 14. I think it's really hard for her to mother in a way that she desperately wanted to be mothered and to mother. You know, she was a child having children and I think when it comes to her sons. They demonstrate like severely all the traits that Alison has within her but keeps a lid on.
But they they embody them with absolute confidence and I think she's incredibly disgusted by them and just disappointed and I think there's a lot of reflection this series for her and thinking about. Is she to blame was the environment because she have done any better. You know, she's looking at her sons on the press a pee of unleashing chaos onto the realm and she's like, how could I have been better? This is all my fault. Such a parent thing.
Yeah. Bad mom. Bad mom syndrome. Yeah, bad mom syndrome. Take about to mom school. Sorry, I'm such a bad mother. Yeah, I don't like it. Do we have time for one last question? I would love to know if each of you is actually team green or team black? It's literally all I know. Yeah. As in like genuinely my thing that I'm most looking forward to seeing this series is like understanding what the hell's going on on that side of the family. We're well and truly in a neco chamber.
We really are. I mean, and I love our gang. Me too. And I sort of bleed green at this point just because I'm completely biased and I have no idea what's going on over there. So seeing the episode for the first time I said, oh yeah. We love our gang. We do love our gang. Yeah, we do. We really like it. Well Olivia here, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you guys. Hi, my name is Greta. After all that we've seen. Where does your allegiance lie currently? Team Black or team green?
Jason, it's so funny when one episode into this season and I hate this question already. I was so adamant about being team black and I think I'm going to stick with it because a stark never gives up. On his both. That's where I'm at I guess. What about you? I remain team black with serious reservations. Astros. Astros. I think they need to tighten up their operation over there. Yeah, yeah, generally speaking.
Um, we got to get some checks and balances on Damon, but I remain team black again with. Heavy, heavy Astros. Yeah, yeah, bold those things. Before we go Jason, I think we should look at our season two bingo cards that we just made because we already get to check some squares off for better for worse. Are you ready? Yeah, let's do it. Surprising romance, check, Allison and Sir Kristen Cole, Helena prophecy, sadly check very sad check Damon murder cloak now he doesn't.
I think murder by proxy while wearing cloak counts right? You're right. He snuck off in the cloak and someone died. I feel like it still counts. You're right. Were you surprised to see Kristen Cole with his armor off, Amond with his feet up and they're just lounging drinking beers and looking at a map? Does that qualify as a surprising friendship? Yeah, I think that does count as surprising and yeah, I think we should mark the bingo board for it. We're going to need a bigger bingo card, Greta.
That's all for this episode folks. Don't forget to join us again Sunday night right after episode two airs on HBO and max when we'll be joined by Tom Glyn Karnie who plays the Magnanimous King Aegon second of his name. And we'll also be joined by Matthew Needham who plays the very sneaky very subtle Lair strong. If you like what you're hearing, don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice.
You can find us on the Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon social media handles and you can find me at Greta M. John Senn on X and Instagram. And you can find me at NETW3RK on X and Instagram. The official Game of Thrones podcast House of the Dragon is produced by HBO in collaboration with Pineapple Street Studios. This podcast is hosted by Greta Johnson and Jason Concepcion are executive producers for Pineapple Street are Gabriel Lewis, J.N. Barry and Barry Finkle.
Our lead engineer is Hannah Brown and Hannah's also mixed this episode. Pineapple's head of sound and engineering is Raj Makija and Pineapple's senior audio engineers are Marina, País and Pedro Alvira. Our editor is Darby Maloney with Fett checking by Melissa Akiko Slaughter, our producers are Ben Goldberg, Elliot Adler, Melissa Akiko Slaughter and me. Special thanks to Michael Gluck's dad Alison Cohen and Kenya Reyes, Savon Slater and Aaron Kelly from the Max podcast team.
Thanks for listening everybody and when Queen Helena says she's concerned about the rats, please listen to her next one. I'm afraid. Don't be. They'd be fools to come with Vega protecting the city. Not the dragons, the rats.