AKOTSK Ep.2: Hard Salt Beef (with Peter Claffey and Medieval Historian Dr. Hugh Doherty)

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the official Game of Thrones podcast in Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. I am Jason Concepcion. And I'm Greta Johnson, and wow, this is the episode we learned that Eggs got a dirty little potty mouth, huh? Gosh, Lance Hole. Woo! This is the second episode of season one, written by Ira Parker and Aziza Barnes and directed by Owen Harris. Yes, of course we're gonna get into the episode. We're also going to hear from Peter Claffy, who plays Sir Dunkin' the Dunk. The Dunkmaster.

And we're also talking today to Dr. Hugh Doherty, who's a historian, and the medievalist consultant on the show. So those are both gonna be really fun interviews. Spoiler warning. If you haven't watched the episode, don't listen to this podcast. Go watch the episode. Go listen. Go watch that first. Then come back here. You must needs find a new device, sir. A sigil of your own. Thank you again, Your Grace. I will fight bravely.

We'll see. Jason, will you give us your recap of this episode? Sure. We open with Dunk's memories. Mm-hmm of an apparently very hung sir. We gotta talk about I'm glad you're leading with that. I gotta mention I mean he was leading with it. Um He was the type of man who could take a punch and just not stop going for Uh the problem is no one remembers Sir Arlen, and uh Egg wonders if that means that He was a shitty knight? Which I honestly it's a good question. Duncan, um

And egg witness the arrival of the royal family. The Targaryens are here. That's Baylor Targaryen, the crown prince. uh Prince Makar, his brother, and various other attendants. We also learn that uh apparently uh Some of Makear's kids are missing right now. Dunc is like, Let's go look at'em. Let's go look at the Targaryens and Duncan

sneaks into a d a very poorly guarded room in a in the Ashford Castle and he kinda stumbles in there almost. He really does. He gets quite close to the royal family and is hearing them discuss This situation with the missing sons. Uh-huh. And then he gets called forward by uh uh Prince Baylor, among others, and they're just like, Hey, what are you doing here? And that's when he's like, Hey, Sir Arlen, anybody remember him? Good news.

Yeah. Prince Baylor's like, rings a bell. I think I remember this guy. In fact, I jousted with him and Uh we broke like four lances. Dunk is like, it was seven. Baylor's like absolutely not the f not true, but good news that guy did exist. Also not the time, Dunk. Later. Dunk trades his beloved horse Sweetfoot. For some new armor. He tells Egg uh that he's

gonna win this tournament and he's gonna get hired somewhere, maybe even with the Targaryens. But Egg is like uh you know, I know a lot about the Targaryens somehow, and they don't hire Hedge Knights, so I Um, they watch a joust for the first time. Egg loves it, is going crazy. Going nuts. Um It is a very brutal event and you can kinda see for the first time that Dunk is like, oh no, wait, this looks physically taxi. Shocker. And back at camp, Egg asks Dunk what's wrong. Dunk

is feeling like, hey, Sir Arlen, maybe he lied to me a lot. Or m misr at at the very least, misrepresented w his life's history maybe because he was drunk. And so I'm worried about Dunk then promises to live up to Sir Arlen's legacy when he appears in the lists tomorrow, no matter what anyone else thinks of him. And there we go. Nice. Yeah. That was great. Uh your thoughts about this episode.

what there are a couple of big themes with this episode. One of them is around the importance of legacy, who and what does and doesn't get remembered. I think there's also like a layer to that around grief. Yeah. And like grieving complicated people. And I think you're really seeing that with like the way Sir Duncan is talking to people about Arlen versus these flashbacks that we're getting where Arlen is like

probably kind of an asshole a lot of the time. You know? Or at the very least, like fall down drunk. Yeah, it's right. I think one of the things that struck me the most about this episode, which we'll probably get into more, is that scene that you mentioned where w when the Targaryens show up and we're seeing it from the pers perspective of like dunk watching them come in.

And I think that was a very strong moment for me of like, oh, this is a very different Game of Thrones show because normally we would be in that room. Right. And granted, in this episode, we do end up there, but only because Dunk stumbles in and shouldn't have. And I just think it's such an interesting contrast from from yeah, what the point of view usually is in a show like this. It's interesting too with Dunk. It's almost like if he knew better.

He wouldn't do any of the things that he does in this episode. Right. Which and then it's like, well, of course I don't want him to know better because like I wanna go on this weird, ridiculous journey with him. Um, well, should we jump into the episode? Okay, let's listen to uh this opening flashback, which has kind of the the voiceover about Arlen, which means we're gonna see his penis again.

Prepare yourself. You you might not remember him, but um Stay there. I'm coming back. He was a true knight. Uh different than other men, yeah. He had a peaceable nature. Quiet. A veteran of a hundred wars, but an enemy to no one. He always knew what was expected of him. He never complained. Even as he was dying, he... he just. I just got on with it. What a way to meet. Sorry.

Are you gonna ask me if it's CGI or prosthetic? I it's gotta be prosthetic. I didn't even have a single doubt in my mind. In fact, my only question about it is is it the prosthetic from season two with the Hodor scene in front of the tree. That's my only thing. No, I don't think they I hope they haven't held on to that. Okay. Frankly. Is Dunk a reliable narrator and then I have a follow up based on that? 'Cause we're clearly these are his memories of Sir Arlen.

as he's recounting this to egg. Right. And it is an interesting uh juxtaposition in this moment because we have his voiceover, which is describing not what we're actually seeing in this scene. Um, so there is some question about Dunk's reliability as a narrator. But I think this is one of those moments where there's like, fact and then truth and like what is true to dunk. And I think he is saying things that he believes. I do think

Again, some of that could have to do with his grief. Yeah. And wanting to remember h the best of him in a way that I think is well-intentioned and mostly quite gracious, but like may be sort of like blurring around. Yeah, I mean speaking of grief, it's been less than forty eight hours since Sir Arlen passed away. The only person in his life that we know of anyway. Yeah, do you think

Dunk is particularly good at processing his feelings about Sorlin's death? Clearly not. No. I mean, I don't know. Maybe he had some really good conversations.

About it. It's possible. Well, and it does also make sense to me that, like, yes, Dunk wants to get on the lists, and that's part of why he's working so hard to find someone who remembers Sir Arlen. But I imagine also If as part of the grieving process, to get to talk to someone who also knew him would be a really valuable and lovely experience. You know. Yeah. He must have had enough redeeming qualities for Dunk to wanna stick around with him. But so f I mean, he seems like he's he was pretty

Stern. Pretty stern and pretty pretty drunk. But also um a character who Kind of incongruously interacted. inter intersected with the royal family with the Targaryens. Yeah, Jason, I think we should talk about the Targaryens kind of entering the picture in this episode because now seems like a really good time to talk about just like what's up with House Targaryen at this point in history. Can you set that up for us?

What's up with T House Targaryen is this is in the wake of the Dance of Dragon Civil War. Dragons have b essentially died out. This is also in the wake of the first Black Fire Rebellion, so that ha d devastating other civil war has been put down. And this is kind of the Targaryens at their Weakest. point. But there is still a Targaryen King. There's a Targaryen King, King Daron the Good. He's the one who brought Dorne into the realm. Um and the realm is is experiencing a period of

relative peace and stability at this time, although, as always, thoughts go to the future. Will it always be like this? Who will take over when the king dies? And that Part of what Baylor and this procession and Prince Makar are are are here to kind of shore up. The future. Right. The future is in good hands. Baylor is like next in line. He is next in line. And you know, from what little we see of him. is someone who takes it really seriously.

Mm-hmm. Just the fact that he remembers people's names and and takes the time to do that. Like when Makar's like, You remember uh hedge night from he's like, Yeah, because I try to I'm gonna be in the big chair, so I try to do that, you know? Yeah, he seems fair, which you can't always say. No, you cannot always say, especially with the Targaryens. No. I think we should hear a bit of that scene where junk meets Baylor. Mm-hmm. My lords, I do apologize for my interruption. I um

I have asked Sir Manfred Gondarian to vouch for me so that I might enter the lists, but he has refused to do so. Who? What the fuck is going on? We are the intruders here, brother. Come closer, sir. Question. King's Guard? Question mark? Yeah, great question. I feel like this has come up in other conversations we've had. What's up? People can't be wandering into places. Wandering into the royal presence. What? I love this scene. Same. And the the again, the look on everyone's faces when this guy

Huge guy comes like lumbering in. Makar in particular is like What? Yes. Weirdly I think if Dunk was a more polished character, much like the scene previously with Leo. With Lionel, Lord Lionel, who I call Leo. I like that you're calling him Leo, I call him Leo. So it's my short nickname for him. If I think if Dunk was a more polished character, I think this goes worse for him. What did you think of his pitch? I completely agree with you. I think.

Yeah. Well be I think part of it is and Leo kinda points this out too, like it's not like he has anything to bargain with, right? So there's no like he so he just has to show up empty handed and acknowledge that he's empty handed and like that's all

That is all he can do. And it seems like like Leo, Baylor also is like, you know, what's what's this guy up to? You know, there is a curiosity to I agree. Like this is this is an interesting Um and to see them from Dunk's point of view is really interesting too because

I mean I think this is another one where He thinks that people in power like they should be they are in power for a reason and it's because they can be trusted and, you know, will do a good job and like he's not disillusioned by any of that, which is

I think an interesting place to be and also arguably quite naive, especially in this world. It's really cool that the Targaryens are here also because I think It is a manifestation of the fact that without dragons, there's a more kind of normal sort of politics going on in the realm where You actually have to have people support you. It's not just about like, well, support me or else.

the dragons will come. Baylor is a he's w he seems wise, he seems very just, yeah, clearly very smart. And there's a there's a There's a side that of him that is clearly like measuring out all the angles. And I think that makes him a really fascinating guy. Yes, totally thus far. Yes, for sure. I completely agree. Yeah, it'll be interesting to see how all of it yeah rolls out from here, really.

We also see more of Tancel, the puppeteer, who caught Dunk's eye in the first episode. Yes. I love her. She's wonderful. She's also who Dunk asks to paint a new sigil for him. Uh, let's listen to that because it's just too good. We can't not. That was great. How'd you do the fire trick? Oh. Is it pollen? Yeah, we uh we collected on the way.

I've never seen such giant puppets. You make them yourself. My uncle builds them, but I paint. Could you paint something for me? I I have the coin to pay. I am Um I need to paint something over the chalice. Well, what would you want? Um I I don't I don't actually know. Sorry, you must think me a fool. All men are fools. All men are knights. Um dunk 100% not understanding what she said. No. It's just like right. Yes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. All men are fools, all men are nights.

Yeah. Yeah. But what do you think tinsel means by this? I think it means exactly what she's saying. I mean, I think it's like All men are always saying all sorts of things about like who they are and in the end they're all the same is kinda how I read that. Yeah. What do you think? I think it's something like that. Like every guy thinks they're a knight. Yeah, he's gonna tell you that he's but he's probably a fool. Yes. Exactly.

In this episode, very sadly, Dunk parts with the beautiful sweetfoot. The beautiful, sweet, sweetfoot, uncomplaining, loyal steed. Is this the most crushing scene we've seen since? It was very heartbreaking. Would you consider yourself a horse guy? I do love the horse. What a great answer, Jason. I do love the horse. I used to say I used to joke I used to joke at home that I wanted a horse and a hen. Oh. Did you ever get either? No.

No. That's really I do like horses. I went to horse camp. I rode horses. Oh wow. Yeah. So you are a horse guy. I like a horse. They're great animals. I think th the fact that the scene was as heartbreaking as it was is testament to like how well the show has been written. I c I agree. Because, you know, we haven't spent that much time with the horses anyway, but we have spent just enough where you know what a huge sacrifice Duncan in this scene.

And the fact that it is such a huge sacrifice, I think, is a embodiment of how important this is to Dunk. Like he's gonna do this. Yeah. He's gonna get the money to get the armor so he can enter the lists. Yeah. You can't talk him out of it. He's made that decision and much like Sir Arlen before him, he's not going to be shaken from it no matter what, even if it costs him. you know, w one of the last vestiges of Sir Arwen on this earth. Yeah. We're also seeing night jousting.

Looks bad. Why would you do that at night? Not involved. I don't want to drive at night. I'm not gonna joust. I think they need some sort of reflective tape. Yeah. On the armor and the and the and the shields. Torches. We're doing it by candlelight out here. It's very foggy. That's so stressful. That said... Crowd was loving it. That's true. Crowd was going absolutely crazy. Egg is going absolutely like Oasis Live at Wembley crazy. Ha ha ha.

Yeah, I do think there is I mean, even just the difference between Dunk and everyone else in in that audience where like clearly they're there to see sporting and they're excited. And and yeah, it really seems like Dunk is one of the only ones in that audience who's like, wait a second. Yeah, that looks I don't like the look.

So I thought this was like wrestling where it was like kind of fake. Right. No, that's real. Uh-huh. This is high impact. Yeah. Dunk goes back to camp and there he talks with Egg about Just the feelings he's having about Sir Arland. Let's hear some of that. He raised me to be an honorable man. Noble lords can't even remember his name. His name was Sir Ireland of Pennytree. And I am his legacy. On the morrow. We will show them what his hand has wrought.

What do you think about what Dunk's saying here? It definitely seems like a more honest rendering of his memory of Arlen, you know, compared to what we heard earlier in this episode. Yeah. Um, it also, I mean, he sounds very determined. Like he is, despite having seen the horrors of the night joust, like he seems very motivated. Yeah. And he's he I don't know that he actually is ready. But like his resolve makes me think that he thinks he's ready. Yeah, I think that that's right.

I also think that it's interesting. He's come to he's evolved, right? He's come to a different place. Yeah. From the uh kind of the end of episode one into here, into episode two where Kind of the doubts about was Sir Arla lying? Yeah. Have have faded away and now it's a kind of fury that the lords don't respect the lives of the small folk who fight for them. But I think to your point that that that determination is is part of it is just an anger at at the fact that

Um, people fight and die for these lords and princes and they don't even bother to remember them or recall them or think about them at all. Yeah. Yes. And here's a man who had such a huge impact on Dunk's life. Yeah. Nobody else can take the time a day to remember his name, practically. And so yeah, they're gonna remember it. I do believe that he thinks that, yeah. It's almost vengeful in the way he talks about it, but it's certainly to your point determined. Mm-hmm.

Speaking of Sir Duncan, let's listen to our interview with Peter Claffey, Sir Duncan himself.

Well, we are thrilled to be joined today by our favorite hedge knight, Peter Claffey, who plays Sir Duncan the Tall. Peter, thank you so much for being here. No, not at all. Thank you guys. It's an honor. Lovely. Tell us about uh the role and getting the role. So I was a massive, huge, huge fan of like the original Game of Thrones series back in the day. Um so when this came along, I mean As everything is, it's like a tape gets sent out to so many people.

end up doing the tape and it's so easy to let do a tape and I've put as much effort as you can into it but just let it off into the ether and go, Yeah, I get what that was but as soon as things started there's a recall tape and you're like, Oh, I might have Something well there. Strangely. And then the next thing you get in the room and The suspense and the anxiety just skyrockets. Um so I can't I mean if I'm being honest, it wasn't a

like a an enjoyable experience. Just terrified. But yeah, but like it was just it was just a a a roller coaster of a thing. And I think when I got when I got it I was like, oh wow, amazing. And I just Got home, I was in the gym, got home, uh, walked into the house and I was sitting down and it was like Sat down on the couch and then it just went slowly just slid onto the couch and curled up in the fetal position. And my my partner Ali, uh my girlfriend Ali was like coming back to the house.

something and she just came in the door and there's me like shaking hyperventily What the hell happened? And I was like, I I got the roll. I got the roll. So it was bizarre. But yeah. It's been it's been crazy. But Really, really enjoyable. Just even to be part of the sort of Game of Thrones world. It's huge. Yeah. Totally.

So much fun to watch this show because it's totally so different from the other two shows and I think especially like one of the big themes that you do see throughout in both Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon is Like the underdog is often like a very well loved theme, I think, that George Armorn likes to work with. I think it's interesting in this show because

Like you think about a Peter Baelish or something who like you see them once they have arrived, but not as they are making the climb. And I think what's really interesting about your characters, especially in this show. Is that he's making the client, like you're seeing him from the very beginning. Yeah. Which I just think is so fascinating from the point of view of like just characters. Yeah, I think I suppose like the difference with it is that you get a real insight or a POV from the

The small folk don't comes from nothing. And I think what's different about that with everybody else and even your like John Snows or as you said like the bears and stuff, they're all of a highborn sort of status at some point. Right. They're in the rooms. They're in the rooms. They're in the big families and I think it's kind of

maybe slightly more relatable dunk is just because he's kind of like an everyday person of the small folk and stuff, just trying to make his way. Um, but I suppose like his chivalry and his honour are stuff that you can quite, you know sort of relate to and like with a character like that. So I I hope everybody's for him going through the thing. But yeah. Uh talk to us about that because though

Duncn doesn't really lay it out. He does seem to have a code. He really believes in the words that Knights swear to. And he um quite clearly has disdain for people who

don't live by those words. Um, and yet there's these moments where you wanna be like, Dunk, don't don't do it. Just let it go, Dunk. Um tell us about this character and what do you think drives him? Yeah, so I mean we l start we meet him burying his his old master, Sir Ireland of Pennytree and He has been taught by Sir Areline all the way through about all these great knights and chivalry and honour and treating people with respect and different things and just general goodness.

And I think like in those first two episodes you get a sense of you get to see all these different families that we're quite aware of through being fans of Game of Thrones and He kind of is looking at all these knights that he looked up to and was told that were amazing and stuff by Sir Erlen, and he's kind of looking at them going, Like, You're not as moral as I was told, you're not as chivalrous And I suppose he has this conflicting thing inside him that he's wondering was his master

Right. Right. Was he true? Is this uh are you supposed to be chivalrous, are you supposed to be honourable, or are you supposed to be more like these Targaryen princes that are not exactly the way that we look. And I suppose he has to find that out through his journey in Ashford. And I mean, he has to go on a mental journey that he did not expect to find out what was the true way of living, you know what I mean?

Well, I think it's also interesting because it's not like he has a whole lot of other choices either. Mm-hmm. You know what I mean? So then like, what else is he gonna do? Like it it feels very much to me like He has devoted himself so fully to this, but also that's because like you just don't get a lot of options in this world, you know? Totally. I mean

i i it's quite a quite a pessimistic dark place to live. So it's like you want to avoid the danger at every turn. So I suppose every decision matters and Sometimes it's quite hard to do the right thing. Um it is such a dark world. Uh and yet the tone of this show is quite different from Game of Thrones. There's really wonderful lighthearted moments. And

you get to do those things in a physical way. It's like a f quite a funny role physically. Tell us about some of those comedic moments that um play through dunk. You know, going the wrong way when trying to leave a tent or hitting his head or almost hitting his head on some beam going across. Yeah. There's like a couple of Head hits and we were like, I think we need to take a look at the strategic I think we might have a million head hits.

But uh that's when he meets um the master of the games, um who's played by Tom Vaughan Lawler. Which was absolutely a maze which is like one of my hero Irish actors as well. So that was terrifying to go in and do that scene and turned out to be like the loveliest person ever. But Yeah, I suppose physical comedy just comes through the the insecurity and the discomfort and anxiety. Um yeah, and I suppose there's just a couple of moments that we got where you have these

crazy serious scenes with a lot of high high staked themes. Yeah. And then we just love to kind of finish them with a thing of him like going I you know, I y I will I will do you guys j proud and and you'll see me fight well and then he walks and leaves and then turns around and goes, Oh shit, sorry, it's the other way It's just like little things and I I really I suppose I was quite like I was quite nervous. I was like God if I don't pull this off.

It's gonna be terrible in that regard, but it seems to have like worked out all right. Yes, totally. Yeah, it did. Yeah. Should we get to the big debate that we've been having? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's do that.

Peter, are you familiar with the term himbo? What is it? Himbo? Himbo. Bimbo. It's like a a male I know what limbo is. It's like a b uh bimbo but for a man. So it's like a man bimbo who is uh uh conventionally good looking but not smart. And I guess the quick was an example that you had, which is a very good one. Don't worry about it. Don't worry about it. I'm afraid I'm gonna have to put that to bed. Oh my god. Conventionally good looking. What do you want it?

Well so the question being, is dunk a himbo? And I think like you get little references throughout the show of like people think I'm dumb because I'm so tall. Yeah. He certainly has a simplicity to him. Yeah. I think he's very single minded in his vision. But yeah, we've been trying to there's like a internal debate among the team as to whether or not Dunk is a himbo. Himbo. Um let me see. Yeah, I mean there's no question that like donk

I mean Dung has like I feel like he's got a good way of obviously his values, morals and all the things we were talking about, and he has a good way of sort of navigating things. But I mean it's it's blatantly obvious that there's not a lot. Probably. Um he's he you know, he's and a a lot of that is because of insecurity and anxiety in in in in sort of different situations.

Um but I don't know if I I would say himbo because I I totally 100% disagree with the conventionally good looking thing. I do have a theory about that. Sure. Yeah. Which I think it has to do partly with the fact that झांग Is one of the only people we've met in this universe who is striving for something but doesn't have an ulterior motive. You know, like in this case. He just says very plainly what it is that he is seeking out to do. And I think maybe that comes off as simple because

We so rarely see that's that's a great point. There always We're so used to characters from Game of Thrones like with a tunnel vision like objective of what they want. Right. But they don't actually say it because they can't afford to, so they have to walk their way around it all the time, you know. And they're using like

Sly strategies to get through. Right. They're tricking people into helping them, all that stuff. Whereas your character is just like pull me out? Yeah. I think Dunk is like Uh in his head obviously he's not a hundred percent clear on what he wants, but I think like he just thinks You know, if I could be in some household and live under a roof and be able to have a drink of wine and have some bread in the evening and not fear for my life every night. He's like, yeah, that'd be great.

You know what I mean? Yeah. It's a low bar, but yeah. It's a terribly low bar because it's Westeros, right? Yeah, it's Westeros. It's a tough place. Yeah. Um, let's talk about your uh partner in crime throughout this series, egg. Obviously that relationship is the engine of this show. You guys have such a wonderful chemistry. Talk to us about those scenes in the film with Dex. I'm I'm just blown away by that kid.

Amazing. He's amazing. That's so fun. To be honest with you, I I like On a sort of self conscious level I can see so many other people probably being dunk really like and but I I don't see anybody else other than Dexter being A. He's just amazing. He's so so so good. You're quite good too. You are very good. Yeah. Listen. Just Okay. Whatever it is. What do you think it is that these two characters see in each other? Because they are

Such an odd pairing, especially at this point in the season we're on episode two. Yeah. And I mean they have sort of formalized their relationship though, where Egg is Dunk Squire. It's funny though, because even like Egg knows so much. Like he's always dropping these little nuggets about like, oh yeah, this family, blah, blah, blah. And these people, this is why they're they're here. And I don't I think it's a really interesting dynamic between the two of them. For sure. And I think

Obviously when Egg arrives at Ashford and having gotten the back of a lamb cart or a sheet cart And he starts thinking, uh and he's like, I'm from King's Landing and I think Dunk sees that he sees himself, he's like, That's my I was a a complete blow in from Flea Bottom and he sees himself meeting Sir Ireland.

And just like has empathy, I suppose, and sort of love for that sort of young lad trying to do what he can do. And I think I suppose, especially the very end of The very end of one, especially when he's like, Look, you can you can be my squire and he explains to him what that entails it's not gonna be pretty. It's w we d I have no money. We're gonna be eating very rough food.

We're gonna be living in ditches and living beside rivers and stuff. And you can see and Dexter does it so well it's like you can see eggs l eyes light up. He's like Yeah, he wants to live that squire life and and be a knight when he's older and I think they see both things that they can really get from each other, you know what I mean? And uh and I I got that from reading the book day day one. It's like it's just such a gorgeous sort of brotherly relationship as well.

Yeah, I feel like there's a real sweetness to it, which is another thing you don't always see in yeah in this world. Yeah. And the beauty is this that like Dunk is always threatened to give him a clout in the ear and like beat him like Sir Ireland did. And you know, he just never does really like so far like he never does and he's just always threatening and I think that's such a lovely thing. And I always I almost I I got to get another go at that because I have a younger brother and

we had the same sort of relationship, only I was clouting him in the ear for our entire childhood. So yeah. I got to have another kind of more kinder like lovely thing. Yeah.

So last question. Um if you were a knight, what would your knight name be? Uh be Sir Peter the something. Yes, Sir Peter. Sir Peter the humble. Oh that's but that's uh that's like a double because it's not humble. It's not humble to say that, is it? Yeah, no. Sir Peter. Sir Peter the praise.

I think like I I say Peter in the fetal position on the floor. Yeah. No, Sir Peter. I think I've got a bit of a Sort of a reputation and a love for like We we call in Ireland acting the Mick which is like just being a menace on set. And I've always done that myself. So maybe it's Sir Peter the Jester. Okay. I like it, I like it. Yeah, but he's a knight. So cool. So maybe that

A jest your night. That's a whole new role. Let's do it. I'll say it's a George. Well Peter, thank you so much for having me. Thank you so much. Appreciate it so much. Thank you. What a charming gentleman. Oh my goodness. A really lovely human. Yes.

Ira has talked about this, but you really can get a sense of um You know, like Peter's own sort of like discomfort with this level of exposure, I think is so similar to like you can really see how he has brought some of that into dunk in a really lovely way. He was a delightful guy. And I will also say his social media, very fun. Oh that's delightful. He does like a lot of uh he's a very athletic guy. He's out there running. He was a former

uh pro rugby player and he does a lot of like vlogs while running. Check it out. Check him out on on the d Instagrams. That's so funny. And now we have another great interview. We also got to talk with the incredible medieval consultant for the show, Dr. Hugh Doherty. Let's go to the conversation with Dr. Hugh. So the world of Westeros obviously is fictional, but it is also deeply rooted in real life history.

And our guest next is medieval historian Hugh Doherty, who was a medieval consultant on A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, which means we are going to learn more about the real medieval grit and grime that this show is rooted in. Hugh, thank you so much for joining us. It's a pleasure. It's a pleasure. So Hugh, you have a job that I'm very interested in. What does it mean to be a medieval consultant on a show like A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms?

I love cinema and I love this sort of visual adaptation and storytelling. These narratives I think are just wonderful. I really think this is, you know, this is not medieval history, but George R. Martin, he knows his medieval history. And I think that uh, you know, he in many in many ways. Many of the things he's written about and the stories he's telling and the way he's telling it and the way then these have been told.

um in Game of Thrones and and in the Knight of the Seven Kingdoms, uh um uh I is is in many ways more medieval than many films and adaptations that offering us the Middle Ages in so many different ways, in in atmosphere, in detail, in in outlook. So it was a great Honor and pleasure for me, having uh watched everything uh religiously, um and talked to my students about it, for many of them, of course, they come to the Middle Ages through Game of Thrones. I mean Yeah.

Um, they're of a generation now. I mean, they're if they're anyone who's you know 18, they will have encountered. uh Game of Thrones. So when to be a consultant is to on this was a was just was just wonderful, a joy. And so with Ira, um Uh I was able to he w asked me questions and I was able to I could offer him sort of different answers and what I like is that I can offer the framework and the detail and he could choose what he wanted. Well we are so curious about just

what knighthood entailed in the period that this show pulls from. What was the role of a knight? at in this period of history. Many different contemporaries at the time, many diff had in a way competing views about the roles of of what the roles of knights, what what made a good knight Um but there was some consensus, let's say, in the mid fourteenth century.

that a knight should have um certain key qualities, um a demonstration of uh be the ability uh to to fight well, uh demonstrations of courage, of prowess. and uh also a moral duty to protect the church. to protect um the vulnerable, to protect the innocent. and um to to live the life of a true knight.

Uh and that also entailed generosity and a certain way of living, of of of of giving gifts, of hosting feasts, of entertaining. It was It was something that that it that was very important on the tournament field and on the battlefield, but also in the hall, uh on pilgrimage, uh in everyday life. I see. Hugh, it sounds expensive.

Was that the case? I mean I feel like You're thinking like the gear, the parties I mean the gear, the parties, the generosity feasting. Oh my god, another feast, yeah. You're absolutely right. It it it it was expensive. And these knights are representative of a certain class of landholder. I see. Um, and so that they r they obtain their wealth from their lands, their revenues, their exercise of their rights. from their control of court The proceeds of courts and so effective night.

have to be on top of their spending and that not only their spending but the collection of money. That's really important. So often some of the most famous knights. can only be famous because either they've inherited wealth Or they've made their wealth and know how to spend it. Um and you know, uh one of the one of the most celebrated knights of the fourteenth century was the um was the black prince Edward of Woodstock, and he was famed for his generosity.

Uh but in many ways he was too generous, he was spending beyond his means. Um and and so it that's a real challenge for these for the for the for these knights and for the the kingdoms in which they live, that war then as now costs a lot of money. and show and generosity and hosting. Um So they they surround themselves with men and women who are totally on top of the font finances. And there are also I mean I think about our real our main character here, Dunk, who is a hedge knight.

And there is a real life analogy for that as well, a knight errant, right? Absolutely. Or there were there were there were those knights who were who came from the uh the landed class, from gentry ranks, gentry circles, and then there were lots of There were there were lots of knights who were um living by their swords, um, and tournaments and war provided uh ambitious, homeless, desperate. um young men, older men, with a chance to f to to find some sort of fortune. And um so

The Hundred Years War gives a lot of these men all across Western Europe. I mean Englishmen, um Scots, Welsh, Irish, Bretons, Gascons, Spaniards, Castilians, Italians, Frenchmen, um a chance um to uh uh make their fortune through war. So they have nothing and then they can serve in one ruler's army. Uh the problem for these men is that when there's peace, what do they do? For those errant knights, um how do they

Prove who they say they are. And in this show, uh, one of the issues that um our main character Dunk has is He's been knighted by a hedge knight, by this world's version of an errant knight, who barely anybody remembers, but when they remember him, they don't dispute that he was a knight. But this gentleman, Dunk, who's claiming to be have been knighted by him, is another matter. How in history would these errant knights

Prove that they were who they said they were. And I would imagine this would lead to a lot of identity theft, so to speak. I think the show captures that nicely that the role of memory that that my father, my uncle, my brother served in this campaign, and the ability to name all these. These individuals. I think that's really important. That that's I I think that comes out so well and is so evocative of the medieval world.

Um uh, you know, they don't they can't look at their smartphones. They they're not dependent for memory on their smartphones. So they could take in, it's clear, lots, lots more information and then recite that information when when required. Um the other side of the coin is that sometimes they simply don't care. They don't care if these men uh that about their descent, they just want effective soldiers um in their host.

Um, you know, you're putting together a mercenary company in 1360s France, you'll take anybody. Um and and it's you just want effective soldiers. So there's a kind of there's the tournament and the joust which is largely an e an a an an elite On the whole, an elite sporting club, and then there's war where you can take more or less anybody. Um.

Yeah. Yeah. Would you yourself ever wanna be a knight, Hugh? Like have you have you tried to picture that? Um, well I you know, I I tend to think of myself as a moral and physical coward, so I wouldn't think uh No. Um But I, you know, you have to admire you see that in the hundred you see that in various campaigns in the hundred years war as well as in the tournament field. Their their sheer courage.

And it's true of the it's as true of of of of the the female actors as much as the male act in the politics and violence of the age. Um And it sometimes it's so shocking, but they this ability just to keep going, uh it clearly had an impact on them, some of the things that they saw. And that's that is While other things are are less palatable and are deeply upsetting their courage and devotion to their

their rank and their a their friends and their lords. That's very, very admirable, I think. Well, Hugh, thank you so much for joining us. This has been really enlightening. My pleasure. It's great to talk about it. Oh, I love that interview with Hugh. Yes. So much fun. I have many more questions for him and I hope that uh he'll be okay with me cold calling him. I bet he would once I get his information. But Hugh, uh yeah, yeah, yeah. Just uh quick question about the thirty years. The lens.

Um well in a tradition started in our first episode. Uh-huh. We will now name this episode's Dun. Most valuable I'm torn between two, so I want you to go first. Okay. You know what? Hmm. I'm gonna go with Sweetfoot. That's I had a feeling you were. And that was one of my two choices. I think an unsung hero carrying Duncan and Ed. To and fro. Yeah. Sweet horse. Your most valuable name. So I was torn between Sweetfoot and Tancel. Oh good one. Because I think that line.

All men are knights and all men are fools. Is a real, real good one. I think so too. And I think speaking the truth is very nightly. So that's my argument for that one. Your choice is? Lady Tancell. I love it. And that's it for this episode. The third episode of A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms comes out next. Sunday on HBO and HBO Max. And don't forget to join us right afterwards as we break it all down with our heroic

Squire Dextrasolanso who plays egg. Yes, I can't wait for y'all to hear that one. If you like what you are hearing and watching, don't forget to leave a rating and review on your podcast player of choice. You can find us on the Game of Thrones social media handles, and you can also watch us on HBO Max. Yes, I did say that correctly. You can watch us on HBO Max. You can also follow me on Instagram at Greta M.

Sun, you can read my substa called Gretagram, and you can listen to my podcast. Happy to be here. Find me on Instagram at NETW3RK and listen to my podcast, X-Ray Vision, available wherever you get your podcasts. The official Game of Thrones podcast on Knight of the Seven Kingdoms is produced by HBO in collaboration. Game Boat Studios. This podcast is hosted by Greta Johnson.

And Jason Concepcion, who also produces the show. Our executive producers for Same Boat Studios are Gabrielle Lewis and Barry Finkel. Our senior producer is Ben Goldberg. The show is mixed by Hannes Brown. and our video editor is Stefano Sanchez and Insun Huang is our digital content producer. Special thanks to Michael Glucksstad, Alison Cohen Sorokash, and Kenya Reyes from the HBO Max podcast team. Thanks for listening. We'll see y'all next week. The Volvo XC90 is equipped with seven.

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