Steve Carell

and that was impossible. It was not going to be the same. There's plenty of Katie's signature curiosity and no holds barred interviews, along with some of her own revealing answers. We spent a lot of time together around a dining room table here and in the city, and you know, it was a very intense experience. All episodes of Next Question with Katie Couric are available now. Listen on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

your podcasts. Hi, I'm Hillary Clinton and I'm so excited to be back with a third season of you and me both. When I started this podcast, we were going through some tough times and let's face it, we still are and here's what I know. We cannot get through this alone, so please join me for more conversations with people who will make you think, make you laugh, and help us find a path forward. This season, I'll be talking about the state of our democracy with experts and

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recognized expert in the world of romance. And I'm Alicia Ry, best selling author of over twenty romance novels, Introducing I Heart's new romance podcast, Love Struck. Daily. Every day we deliver a new love story straight to your headphones, Real life love stories guaranteed to bring all the fields. A little bit of sexy, a little bit of danger, and a lot of heart. Who doesn't need more love? Like this. Who wants to go on a first date with me?

On Instagram Live? Are you serious? Real life fairy tale? Right there? Badass lady Pirate Mary takes her shirt off. Let me show you pirate style and it's just and for goodness sakes, just kiss already. Listen to Love Stock Daily on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm in love with you. I'm Steve Carrell and I played Michael Scott on the Office. Well, hello everyone, Yes it is time. It's the one you've been waiting for. I'm sure. Well. First of all, welcome

to this week's episode of the Office Deep Dive. I am your host, Brian Baumgartner. I got ahead of myself. I could not be any more excited to present my guest today, Mr Steve Carrell. Now, Steve was the star of the two thousand seven comedy of an Almighty Alright, No, but I mean talk about someone who truly needs no introduction, which is probably a good thing, because there's literally old way that I could put into words just how incredible

Steve is. Even though it's like my job, my entire job is just to put things into words and I clearly can't. Um, maybe this is the best way to explain it. During this conversation, the one you're about to hear, Steve basically said that it is so hard to talk about the office without hyperbole. That he didn't want to be like it's the greatest or you know whatever, but honestly, that is how I feel about Steve. It's really hard to talk about Steve without hyperbole because he truly is

the absolute greatest. I could go on forever, and I I kind of do in this conversation. So let me just say this. I hope you enjoy this just as much as I did. Here he is the incomparable Steve Correll. Bubble and squeak. I love it, Bubble and squeak on bubble and squeaker cookie, every moment, lift over from the night before. Oh my god, are you that's so good? It's so good. God, I know I was just saved your producer. Yes, where do you you want me here?

Oh my god? How was life? I mean, sorry, I'm late. I know. I literally just saw and I texted I said, he's ten minutes late. But that's now, so, um, are you still doing the thing where you because you bought the General Store? Right, is that that's still your So I was somewhere and New York or something and someone came up and had something for me to sign somewhere. They knew it clearly I was going to be and they had this thing. And I said, oh, you got

you've got Steve. I said, I don't. I don't normally see h Steve. And he said, once a year you do a day, is it true? Your laughing? The year you do a day where you signed at the General Store. Well, they every year this radio station does a little remote from the porch of the General Store. Okay, and just to promote the store, and my sister in law runs it, and you know, it's sort of a festive kickoff of summer thing. And I go and I do an interview with them on the porch, and like ten fift people

would show up and watch it. And then if anyone, you know, if anyone wanted an autograph or picture, Right's day? And I do with that. So this guy claimed he stayed for hours it this last year was because there were a lot more people there. Because I think with the office, I think the fact that I mean, I'm sure you've talked a lot too many people about exactly that. But boy, in the past couple of years, that's changed, just that the tone of that has changed, that that

little get together. I mean, you're very, very fancy movie star now, but much like how much is it for you now? The office still oh, most of it, I mean, that's right, yeah, I Um, I saw Creed and on Space Force. I'm working with a bunch of office and I think everyone feels that same sort of It's just odd. It's odd that when we were doing the show, and I'm sure you feel the same way, we're sort of

in a vacuum to a certain extent. I never got the sense that the show was a hit by any means, or it was popular enough to keep it on the air. But we didn't have people hanging outside the sound stages. Very rarely, occasionally we'd have a bogey stopped by very rare, very incredibly rare. Did that ever happen? So um, and we were ound in the middle of nowhere shooting the thing.

So I think none of us got a sense that, which was great because then it was just about doing the show and having fun and bonding and and doing good work. Everyone was so committed to it. But yeah, these past couple of years. I'll tell you, when I really noticed it was when I was taking my daughter to her college. We we did tours and and this was to two years ago. Now, I had no idea that it was as popular on college campuses that it

seems to become. And it kind of freaked my daughter out a little bit because it became a bit of a thing, and you know, she was fine. But I think that was the first I mean, and that was just a couple of years ago, the first sense that I got that it it had changed, you know, that temperature had changed a bit. Yeah, I feel like, I mean, it's crazy because we were the number one scripted show on NBC for a long time. Were we were, but they had enough that they had nothing, I guess. Yeah,

but but it's so much bigger now. Yeah, it's it's definitely changed, and it's you know, how can you not be happy about that that people found it because I think when we were doing it, we all felt it was special. We all felt that there were there were elements of the show that I feel like people have they see it um more fully upon repeated view. Yeah, well it was complex, and I think more more so than I think people assumed it was initially. I don't know.

I don't want to out it too much because that's the other thing. I don't want to sit back and say, oh, you know, it's a it's a classic, and it's this and that and that's why people love it. I I'm I'm surprised, frankly that it had the second life that it seems to have and people have. We've talked about it. I've talked to Nancy about it, my wife about why, well for starters, why was it able to stay on the air in the first place, because it was a remake of a very heralded show and it did not

get good reviews out of the block and everyone. I remember before I auditioned, I was talking to Paul Rudd and and I'd never seen the original one, and he asked what I was up to. This was around I think it was right after Anchor Man I was going to audition, and uh, I told him I was going to audition for the American version of the Office and he said, d don't do it. Oh bad dad, move dude. I mean, it's never going to be as good like

what everybody was saying. So it's I think a miracle that it was that it even lasted, you know, that first second season. I mean it was like every we get two episodes, then they'd move it up to six episodes, so the orders weren't There was a lot of confidence in this show for a long time. Yeah. My favorite review, there's a gentleman by the name of David ban Coolie. He wrote the following This is after the pilot where

Ricky Gervais let the bosses insecurity shine through. Steve Carrell is all noise and stupidity, like a sketch comedy character, not a real person, not just foolish, but a fool. Yeah. He was never I mean he was never a fan of the show. He never was. I know him. I don't know him personally, but I know I've read other things that he's written about the show, and it was I don't know, I don't know who he wrote for, but that was it wasn't just him. I think it

was kind of that was pretty common. I think across the board there was not a lot of critical love for the show, which is interesting because I think we all just disagreed. I think we felt like we were onto something and it wasn't the British version, and it was something unto itself. It was based on all of the components that we're making it up. I think Greg daniels Man one of I think his great talents is choosing people, choosing people who have chemistry, both professionally and personally.

Everybody got along, I mean people, We loved each other on that show. I mean what, I just walked in a zoo. I felt like crying. It's it's it was such a special thing, I think to all of us, and I think we're all very protective of it. And you know, reviews good, bad, it's it's okay totally. People have their own opinions and they're entitled to them, and

I you can't take any of that too seriously. But at the same time, I think we all had confidence that we were doing doing something good and doing something of value. From Diversity Day, I remember sitting in that conference room going, if people give this thing a shot, this is funny and it's doing something different. It's looking at the world outside in an interesting and complex way. Yeah. Do you how do you feel like the show reflected

the outside world? You know, in terms of like Diversity Day or gay witch Hunt or well, starting with the quality of our writing staff those first few seasons, especially before everyone became big deals and went off to their own shows. I mean, that's what happens. You get you get these great people like Mindy Kaling and Mike Sure and we had a ton of them. We had a really really deep bench of writers. And when you have a bunch of people who are that funny and that's

smart um. For me, the hardest part of it was servicing the scripts, making sure I didn't because I get I get dialogue every day and think, I can't screw this up because it and it and I knew it had to be delivered in in just the right way

because or otherwise you're not servicing this great writing. So I think that, I think, and I think we all felt that there was a responsibility to get it right because the writer the writing was so consistent in terms of how it reflected society, but to do it in a way that wasn't too heavy handed and felt organic to what we were doing as characters. And that was the other great part of having Run. I mean, I

was there for seven years. You were there for nine too, to be able to trace the evolution of a character and have something in mind, and be able to talk to the writers and talk to Greg Daniels and say, what if next season my character went in this direction, and and then it happened. Um, And I think everyone trusted each other to such a such a degree that you know, that was pete that they were. They were willing to, you know, not be too precious about anything,

and I think it became better because of that. Greg told me something I did not know this, Maybe you knew this, I mean, obviously. One thing that he did that was unique was he sort of tried to obliterate the barriers between the writer's room and and the actors, because he said, for him, this show was about behavior, and you can't write behavior, you can't write body posture, you can't write a specific look on your face, which I thought was so interesting. That's really smart. I know

I never heard that, but it completely makes sense. And the fact that so many of the writers were actors on the show, not just watching. Another thing I liked was that when we were on set, it was pretty much just us and the camera crew and the director all the time, so it felt as close to what we were supposed to be doing. Um, you know, it was as close to doing a documentary without actually doing

one as it could feel. But yeah, having writers there and seeing how the actor's work and maybe tweak a line or improvise and find something, and to have you know, to have Mindy, to have Paul, have b j All there not just as actors but as fuel and and having incredible suggestions or ideas or or things to throw

in rewrites. I mean, I don't know how much footage there is on the cutting room floor, but you could edit an entire season for sure, of of stories, whole storylines that were cut out that we're hilarious and we're just cut for time. I mean, our scripts were long, and our first cuts of things they had to be what twenty minutes, and they'd have thirty five minute cuts their first cut, forty minute cuts. Sometimes they just split them in half and we'd have two shows. That happened

a couple of times. Do you remember was there anything for you that you recall that was cut? People ask like, was there anything that was cut either a story or I mean, I there, no, I'm I don't. I just don't know. I mean I would see things in there and think, oh, yeah, I remember, I remember we shot that. That's right, I know. I recently we went back and watched the whole thing. Claire Scanlin told me the story,

which I certainly did not remember. But there was an episode where Jim and Pam are fighting, and the episode came in and it was really long, and someone had the idea, well, let's just make it a silent fight, and it's just going to be about looks like we're not going to have them, We're gonna cut any exchange between the two of them, and the episode is just going to exist as a silent fight throughout the whole thing.

And at the very end, just as they're walking out to their car, they hold hands and it just like flips the whole thing, but the entire story that had been written and was just gone. That's such a great That's a great move though, and probably so much more powerful than all the dial long they could have said, you know, because that that passive, aggressive, that subtle silent

between couples can speak volumes. Not that I would have any personal knowledge of that, certainly, I'm just saying as a writer an actor, Um, but yeah, that's a great move, and I think they did stuff like that all the time. You know, those editors. We had some great, great people, and so much of the story obviously is told there, and I felt like our job was just to supply them with as much fodder for whatever it was going

to become. But I didn't get precious about anything because I just knew Again it's just a matter of trust. I trusted Greg and Dave and Claire, and I trusted everyone in the cast and all of those writers. That's such a great environment to work in when you just know, do your job and they're going to take it and crafted into something that works. And I think everyone did that everyone. So the level I don't think what people no necessarily is that as much, if not more than

anything I've ever worked on. The universal level of commitment on that show across the board, actors, writers, crew, people were in and it's rare, but I think we all sensed it. We all knew And it's not like the show. We we were never a friends, we were never we were always sort of the the outcast, you know, the little engine for sure, And we got those kind of reviews we never you know, there were never articles written

about the office back then. But I personally so proud of the fact that, in spite of all of the negativity that I think kind of surrounded it, at least at first, that group was completely committed. I I feel like we all sort of it was like we came up together, which which helped us form a very unique bond. I completely agree the relationships between all of us um and again doing this other show that I'm doing now.

Just being able to work with you know, five six, seven people that I had worked with for seven years, what fifteen years ago, It just try it just goes from one thing to the other because there is there is that commonality, there is that that sense of we we came up together. It's so hard to talk about it without hyperbole, too, because I find myself like it's the great you know. I don't want to I don't want to touted too much. I don't want to put too much emphasis on how how great we don't think

it was. But I mean, you know, people can judge whatever the show is and however they like it, and they'll upon repeated viewings, they you know, if they find all of this stuff in it, and that is great. But from a personal perspective having worked on it was the joy like having these friendships and that work experience. I knew when I was doing it that this was going it. Nothing was going to be better than this

as a work experience. I didn't know whether it would be the best thing I'd ever be a part of, or I knew it would be hard to top, certainly, But but just in terms of a personal experience and the rewards from that, nothing will ever come close to it. Yeah, And I think, you know, for me, certainly, I don't want to go into hyperbole either, but I think trying to at least examine the question of why, you know, we were so close. Maybe it's because we came up together.

And to me, the other element was we had such a wide range of experience, you know, like Rain and myself for example, we were like doing check Off the month before, you know what I mean, like that and improv and stand up and sort of all of those experiences. Bill has told me the story, Oh my god, I don't know if you've ever heard this. She got cast. She came in and she was watching everybody improv and

she said, I can't do that. So the first season she went on her way home, drove to the bookstore and bought books on improv and we're reading books she did. I never knew that. I'd never do that either. That's shocking to me because I always thought she was so pure, so good, like one of the best improvisers of any of us, because it was everything was completely honest, and she just listened and she would just respond and within character. That's what it is, you know, that's that's the crux

of it. Wow, that's I I think all those things you say are true. I think the fact that Greg was able to cast people that it's just the chemistry was there. People genuinely cared about each other because there were there were times that people would be in the background for hours and just be seen like in profile, while other scenes were taking place in the foreground. And I never ever heard one complaint by anyone. You know, it was to me, it was the true definition of

an ensemble. More than anything. I think that's why it worked is because there were no I don't think anyone wanted to stick out in any way. I think everyone just felt a joy in being part of that unit. When we come back, our executive Sir Ben Silverman joins our unit for a conversation about the structure of the show, and a little thing called the director sandwich. It's a hard time for hiring, so you need a hiring partner

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favorite shows. Have you ever felt depressed about work only to have your dad be like, why you're so down? So you told him you hate your job and he said, well, you better talk yourself out of it, And then you thought, hmm, I love to talk. I could host a podcast. And then you went to Speaker from my Heart and started a podcast and got good at it, then monetized it, then quit your boring job and told your dad thanks

for the advice. And he was like, well, that's not what I meant, and I don't understand what a podcast is. But you seem happy, So that's great, kiddo. You ever do that? Well, you could at speaker dot com. That's spr e A k E R. Ask your dad, you actually don't. I was talking to a couple of people just about I had a French director I worked with for a while that he taught me that the comedy exists off the beat. It happens either quicker or it takes longer that that pause, But did you never land

it right on the beat? I feel like our show did really well on that. It was, you know, for example, a bad joke that then you get a reaction from Jim that then you get a reaction from somebody, and the laugh could go sort of at any place. And there was a lot going on between the lines there, and the writers were aware of that. They were aware

of the pauses. They were aware of like at the end of was it it was Office Olympics, there's a scene we're all getting ore like ten awards and the yogurt the yogurts, and I remember that turned into a really emotional moment from Michael Scott because someone was giving him an award and it was important in that moment, And I was talking to Greg about this, and I don't think any of us realized until we started doing it that that scene was going to have that sort

of emotional and comedic residence because it wasn't scripted. It was just this moment where Jim looks at Michael and realizes this is a big deal, and Michael starts to cry out of joy and pride, and it it turned into something very different, and I part of the for for my character. Part of the trick was to not let on where the jokes were because Michael generally wouldn't He wouldn't know, he wouldn't have an awareness that anything he was saying was funny unless he was trying to

be funny. So to try to mask the absurdity of the line within somebody just believing it and not commenting on it as an actor while you say it, not not leaning into the joke of the line. I think that was something that was really tricky. Did the production style help you do that? For sure? The way the way that that it wasn't is the production style helped everything, um, because there wasn't that. It wasn't intricate. The lighting took five minutes and we all looked terrible all the time,

so there was no vanity involved. Me. That's why the networks didn't like it. Probably we all looked like real people and we were up. We came out of the bay Watch age, you know, we were like we were of the last part. We were not. But to kind of throw away all the vanity too was very you know, that was great because no one was worried about getting touched up all the time. We were just kind of in our characters and doing our thing, and that not

what the show is predicated on. And so in that sense, I think it felt more like a documentary Tolna authenticity and reality, and then the performance, I mean the other level, just the camera as a character, as an entirely other layer of comedy that doesn't exist even if you're just playing out a scene. In other words, your awareness as a character. You have your own behavior and your intention with this character, but you also are either playing to

the camera or hiding from the camera. It's been the bane of my existence since I've left thee. Yeah, I'm sure to revert to the other two in everything I've done since the office. At least once, I will inadvertently do a take to the camera, and I do it and then I think, why did I just do that? I do too. I mean, obviously we can't use it because we're not doing a recumentary here. Yeah, you just break that walk, but it's such a weird it's a habit do you do with the family, and it's almost

impossible to break. I'm sure on Fox Catcher I did a take to the camera, well maybe not appropriated. Did you say this or did Greg say this to you? There was some discussion about the essence of Michael Scott playing to the camera. Was Michael believing that if he did a really good job that maybe Jennifer Anniston would go out with him? Do you remember that? I don't don't actually remember. Sounds good that somebody said that, like

the early on, Yeah, I can't remember. If it was beguiling the camera gets discovered by you think you're funny, you think you're charming, you put your foot in it, but you think that you're like, oh, wasn't that a good one? Ji? I subtext um. You know who I think was the one of the best right off the bat was Amy Adams. I remember when she came in to do her first episode because it's it's sort of a tricky thing that looked to the camera and and how hard you play it or how subtly you play it,

But she had it down. I remember that first episode. She because she was aware of the camera, but she played it in a very different way, like because she was an outsider. She didn't do there like did you just record what I just said? There's like I'd forgotten that you're there, and now I know you're there, and

they're like all this other stuff going on. So the camera, Yeah, the camera really you could always use it, you know, and it was for Michael it was free reign, you know, because he could always be on and when the camera was documenting things that were more vulnerable that he didn't

want the camera to see. Uh, you know, you could show the fragility of the character as well, and not wanting to be captured or kind of assuming a different character to cover the fragility that, you know, was intrinsic to him. So that camera as a character added I think a depth to all of the characters. It's a reflection I think of what you want the public to see as opposed to what is the reality of the situation or the reality of the person, the layering of

of all of that. Also, as you were talking, I was thinking one of the things that's so arresting now when you go into our show in the world digitally of a thousand shows, and you just see we feel black and white, you know, we feel almost and like analog, you know, and all of that, and yet it has so much more of an honesty connectivity. But I think what that does is it frames the performance and that

kind of thing. It lets the face and the performance and the pathos and the comedy I'll play through character because it's not the bells and whistles and everything jumping around. So much of that was just the ensemble nature of it too, that it's like it's like a great it's like an orchestra, you know, there to know when to fade back and allow the brass section to go, you know, and it's their soul where it's the violins or it's it's such a stupid analogy, but allowing everyone to shine

and everyone to have their moment. I didn't feel like there were all these separate components bouncing off each other. It was like this one group energy that moved through all of those years together and and it morphed into different shapes, but it was all We couldn't lose any components of that because it morphed as a whole. It was a I don't know, maybe that's getting too deep into it, but but that's the way I felt about that ensemble, is that everyone was so strong and so

vital to the life of the whole thing. The show could shift on a dime based on one thing that one character introduces, and it might be it might be a line that was scripted, it might have been something improvised, but everyone else would shift with it and you could feel it, you know, well, like being a good interviewer on the radio, you can tell there's a give and take and allowing for space, and it's a it's a

real talent, it's a real ability. And I think all of that cast had that same ability to sense where it was all going and it was that was so exciting. Yeah, it's funny too because people talk, and which is all true about the ensemble expace ending as time went on and we got into more stories of other characters and other characters were able to shine, that's true. And pretty much everybody did something in Diversity Day, which is the second episode, and you know, almost everybody has a joke

or a moment um. It was being built early and I think Ken and Greg those guys, um, do you remember the U thirty minutes of busy work? Oh early on? Yeah, that that's so his thing, right down to how he starts to see. He doesn't say action, he says go ahead. In the most in the most calm inviting way, go ahead, yeah,

I will say, like to give him ship. It becomes funny to me because he has the it's not just to go ahead, it's the uh go ahead like he he always pretends as though he's about to say something yeah yeah, and then what you know, after the time, you go, man, you're not. You can't fool me anymore. We ever talked about the director sandwich? No, have you ever heard of this? I don't know where I heard

this from, but it is like clockwork. It is the experience I've had on every show with every director, and I'm sure you've had the same experience. Okay, director Sandwich, Sandwich, the director sandwich. The first layer of bread is the first compliment. Director comes in. It's going great. We love it. Everybody back there loves what you're doing. The meat or the filling is the note. Maybe you could pick it up and um and maybe a little more touch of energy.

And the last piece of bread is the second compliment. But we love it. You're doing great. Just do what you're doing and we're just have fun. Every director does exactly this. Just I mean a students, it's in your head. You will always be aware of that now, like, oh okay, now, where where's this? What is the meat here? What is the note? The producer sandwich is no meat? Great jobs? You guys? Do you do you ever? This is a

sort of off topic, but it's now. It's fascinating to me when you're in a scene and you get the first layer of bread, great job, really really doing well, um, Dave, And then turns to the other guy, right, and there's a there's a part of you that's like it wasn't me? Was everything I must be doing okay? And then they give the meat to Dave, and then there's but you know it's really it's really working well, and then it's take two. Director comes back again. Great job, Dave, Right, Yes,

you know what I'm talking about. I've been Dave before, for sure, have been Dave. We all don't want be Dave, but we have all been Dad. But it's almost worse when you're not Dave. But it's even worse than that is when you are tanking a scene and then you're seeing partner, when you're trying to get it going again and try to figure out how you're gonna save your lousy performance, you're seeing partner in a very gracious and lovely way, says, is there anything I can do to help?

Anything I can do from my side? Like, oh no, now, now I'm really Dave, Dave, and and they're just being nice. Can I give you something, to give you something more than I'm giving so your performance is adequate and we come back. Steve and I kicked Ben out of the studio to get into the true psyche of Michael Scott adoption of teens from Foster k. There is a topic not enough people know about, and we're here to change that. I'm April din What, the host of the new podcast

Navigating Adoption, presented by adopt Us Kids. Each episode brings you compelling, real life adoption stories told by the families that lived them, with commentary from experts. Visit adopt us Kids dot org, slash podcast, or subscribed to Navigating Adoption presented by adopt Us Kids, brought to you by the U. S Department of Health, the Human Service as Administration for Children and Families, and the ACT Council. I'm j Calbern, host of deep Cover. Our new season is about a

lawyer who helped the mob run Chicago. We controlled the courts, we controlled absolutely everything. He bribed judges and even helped a hit man walk free, until one day when he started talking with the FBI and promised that he could take the mob down. I've spent the past year trying to figure out why he flipped and what he was really after. From my perspective, Bob was too good to be true. There's got to be something wrong with this.

I wouldn't trust you that guy. He looks like a little scum, big liar, stool bidg it you looked like what he was or at. I can say with all certainty I think he's a hero because he didn't have to do what he did, and he did it anyway. The moment I put the wire around the first time, my life was over. If it ever got out, they would kill me in a heartbeat. Listen to deep Cover on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Emilia on this podcast. I'm

taking you on a search, a search for love. Hard working Latina seeks cool, down to earth guy. Swipe swipe sipe. It's hard out there for a girl to find Mr Wright. I have to meet a lot of Mr Wrong's. He'd invite me over to have dinner with his family. I knew he didn't tell him that I was transgender. Dating as a trans woman can be complicated, but there were other reasons. I felt like I couldn't always be myself.

He's asking me things about my family, like my mom's in prison, my grandmother was arrested for working with the Mexican drug cartel. This scrumbs my love story. It's a show about the things we set up for and the bits of ourselves that make us who we are. Listen to Crumbs as part of the Michael Luda podcast Network, available on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. There. There's a question I've never asked you. This is my memory, at least going

back right. You remember things differently. And we would have a seven eight page conference room scene and we would come into rehearse and you would like kind of flip through your pages and you weren't playing a part like the absent mind professor. But my this was like my right, it was just like oh wait, what are we here? How okay? I'm standing in the front of like the idea of like you had no idea what was going on? And we would do it once maybe and be like, okay,

do we have it? Okay, good, and you would go away and it was like you would finish putting on your suit and then we would start rolling and it was all there was that intentional for you, was there? No, I mean to keep him nothing, but I mean, like, were you Like in retrospect, I started thinking, oh, as an improver, he wants it to be as fresh as possible. Though at times it also got annoying that you were attempting to bring the group to a place where like

you were trying to make them laugh. It was that intentional. Was that sometimes? I think we all tried to make each other last. Of course, um in turn, boy to me, there's nothing more boring than listening to myself talk about process. But but that's there. But I'm curious, I will tell well, just based on the page count every day, and and also on how quickly lines changed, we could have rewrites

the morning up. So I just didn't have time to memorize stuff the night before because they'd be you go home, and after yeah, I go to bed and wake up and and be in the next day and and sort of get into that day's work. But I think it became fairly easy to remember stuff because of the writing, because I think they tuned into every character's voice and they really wrote the dialogue within those voices, and it is infinitely easier to remember lines when they make sense

within your character. So sometimes I would just have to look at these long, chunky scenes and I put the blocks together in terms of Okay, where are you know, where are kind of our joke beats, and where are you know where our story beats, and and what shoe leather and and just kind of trying to process that and then then not think about it, just kind of trying to lock in the structure of it and then

just play the scene. And that was the joy of of how loose it all was when we got in there to shoot, too, because we'd have two cameras covering everything. If you got something, well, once you got it from two separate angles, you have cutting points. You know, an editor's dream really, because everything was covered at least by two cameras. There was never oh so and so said something funny, but it was you know, it was a single on some body else, and then to try to

go back and recreate whatever it happened. They were picking up a lot of stuff, and so when things things happen in real time, generally they were able to get it. Um. So there's a comfort in that too, knowing that it's not like you were going to have to generate it many many times over, and you could make every take different. You didn't have to necessarily match what you did the

first time. You could play with it, and as actors, we could all throw stuff in and and try it different, you know, beat for the ending or um try some you know, some different dialogue. But in terms of yeah, those those long scenes, I just I just didn't want to waste anybody's time either because if I had fumfered through all of those things, and I tried to put enough pressure on myself to lock into it, you know, and try to not make everybody stay because I can't

remember the big speech at the end of the thing. Yeah, yeah, but that's part of it. I mean, just just out of respect for everybody. Of course, of course that was always just very impressive. That's it. I'm not I'm not no, no, I'm not saying anything nice, um, but but no, it was I often wondered about that. I mean Rain Wilson. Yeah. I mean, I don't know the two of you together, it was so stupid, so stupid, but so funny. I recently went back and watched I went start to finish.

I hadn't gone back at all since they aired. And just the dynamic between the two of you, It's like when you're in grade school and there's the cool kids, right the Ryan and Jim, and you want to be friends with them, and then you've got the kind of slightly more nerdy friend of yours that wants to be when you're like, just call me after school. You wan't play with you later because I'm trying to get in. I don't know. There was just something about the dynamic

between you two. He called you a Picasso of improv. Oh my gosh. But I mean, well he you know, I remember auditioning with Rain and we instantly we're making each other laugh, like right from the start. And I'll crack up as much as anyone, but I try not to because I always feel like if I laugh, it's going to ruin that whatever they're doing is so funny, and if I crack up, it's unusable. But there there there are times that I'm sure you can watch the

show and just see tears well in my eyes. That was one of the hardest That was one of the hardest things was to not you know, to not lose it. Raindom. He's such an interesting just an interesting human being. He's he's such a kind He's such a dichotomy because he is. He's an incredibly loving and kind and gentle like cares truly truly care, someone who cares about the universe in a far reaching way, and a much much better person than I am for me, but at the same time,

the biggest cremudgeon. It's like crass, rude, rudous, rude, like unfiltered honesty and yes, yes, just gross sexual for no reason. But gosh, he's he's a great guy. And there's a scene towards the end when Dwight reads the letter of reference from Michael Scott that just puts a pretty fine point on their relationship after all of the stuff that

had Michael has put Dwight through. At his core, he just he he loves, he loves him and appreciates him and understands how loyal he had been that entire time and had for the greater part of the series, had really been his only advocate, and Michael for sure understood that he didn't. Maybe he might have resented it. He white might have wanted more. You know, he could be very petty and immature, but but at the same time, in that moment, you know certainly acknowledges how important Dwight

is to him. Do you, as an actor, do you always search for the good and the character that you're portraying. Sure? I think you have to because otherwise you're just demonizing or judging the people that you're playing. And if you're judging a character that you're playing, you're gonna play it differently. You don't want to editorialize about a character your plan. I think I think Michael's a decent a decent dude

with a lot of heart. But he's so based on his childhood, based on all sorts of things and things that he had lacked growing up, things that he was I felt he was deprived of. He was so hungry for acceptance. But I don't think he had the strongest templates in the world to go by. But I think he also learned and evolved and um became a better person along the way. And he was just a bit

a bit myopic and became more aware. Once he sort of was able to start stepping outside of himself and his own little eccentricities, he could see a little bit more about the world around him. I think one of the things about Michael is he's actually this and in terms of my interpretation of him, I feel like he would look out at all the people who worked with him, and it's like he would put his foot in his mouth all the time. But in a lot of ways, I don't think he ever valued one person or type

of person over any other. And in that way, I think he was very pure character, because he's very dumb in terms of political correctness and being appropriate in public. But at the same time, I don't I just don't think there was hardness in his heart towards anyone. Yes, I agree with he I think a person with an enormously good, kind heart, who lacked a great deal of information about the world around him and was as a sleep in a woke world as you could be, but

trying his best, trying his best. And actually there's a difference between being intolerant and being ignorant, and and sometimes intolerance and ignorance go hand in hand. For sure they do, but I think he was a decent human being. Really, he just didn't get it. All the time, Um, the show was happening my mom and dad, they had friends and they would say, we can't watch that show like that, Michael scotty Key makes me too uncomfortable. I can't watch that.

And I always felt that this was came from a place of deep insecurity or like misogynistic or racist or homophobic feelings within themselves, like that's why it was uncomfortable at times. And then you came out. Thanks a lot for saying this. I get asked about it all the time that the show could never be made. Now, this was not exactly what I said. Okay, well that's great because I have always said that I thought that Steve was misquoted in this. I don't know, I don't know

if it could be made now. Maybe it could. I guess my point was that I think what I was trying to say was that that exact same show probably wouldn't be made today, but with the same components, the same actors, the same writers, if it were to come back, it would evolve into version of what we did back then. I mean, I think the writing would be a bit different in today's climate. But I don't think it would be any less insightful. I don't think it would be

any less smart or any less funny. It would just be different, that's all. And I do think it would be different. And I think, I mean, Michael Scott would be much more tuned into what it is to be woke. He would not understand it necessarily, but he would be. The comedy would be coming from his struggle to understand and fit into the world as we know it today, because the world as we knew it fifteen years ago

is different than it is today. But you know, you take that same character who is trying to speak the language of modern times, that can be very funny, but it would just be different. It would just be a different set of rules for today. But I don't know. I I think, you know, I think it's easy to say that you can't be funny, you can't do comedy

this day and age. I think that's a bit of a cop out because every you know, every time you turn around, there is somebody coming up with something that is of the time and inventive and doesn't shirk away from our responsibility to look in the mirror. I think it just I think it just takes a level of

intelligence to be able to do that. Yeah, here's my other theory, just in terms of like why the show is so popular today and especially with younger people and me going back and watching it, and it doesn't feel dated. And Greg was so adamant about the realistic elements of the way people looked and that it felt lived in and the way that it's shot. I feel like it maybe subconsciously people are they obviously no, it's not a documentary,

but that it's just about this time in this place. Well, I think it's because of of what you said before. It's about behavior. It's about human behavior, and human behavior is pretty universal and doesn't change a whole lot. You know, the question has gone around so often about why the resurgence and popularity, Why is it? Why does it seem to be more popular now than it was back then? But beyond that, why do twelve and thirteen year olds

and ten year olds? Why do they like it? That was always a shock to make shocker because when we were making the show, I thought, well, people who have worked in an office environment have a context. I can get it. I you know, I think they'd have something that they could find in here, but the fact that not only I mean not even teenagers, but like like preteens.

Apparently Billie Eilish is a big fan and has been for years, and I got a note from her and we've corresponded a little bit, and and it's shocking that you know, the this gener at God, I sound like I'm eighty years old, but these younger generations, and it almost seems to have been passed down from their older siblings too. I don't know. I don't, but you know, I try not to even question it too much because it's a miracle that the show still gets the kind

of attention that it does. I don't when is when are people going to get sick of it? Like when? When? When does the shoe drop? And then it's just when does the backlash start? That's my question, is that when when when this comes out? Probably actually know it's the weak before, the week before, It's just done, you know what. I just we all were so lucky. I think that permeates the whole vibe of the show too, because we knew we were all hanging by a thread and we

were just going to enjoy it. And no one there was so cockiness at all, no air against. Everybody was just happy to be employed and working with this group and kind of clinging to each other because we also knew that this is a once in a lifetime conglomeration of people and let's enjoy it. I mean, as an actor, to have an experience like that, you know, we're lucky if we just get to work and and get paid and make a living. Come on, that's like, that's all

any of us wanted. That's the other thing that I think was baseline for everyone on that show. Really, all we wanted to do was make livings as actors. No I think no one aspired to anything beyond that, and so there was complete contentment in in what we had there. But I would add to that that that is what people wanted, was to make a living as an actor.

And at the same time that we felt so lucky that we were actually able to make a living on something that was actually good that people cared about that then took it to like completely agree. I, um you you you haven't died, Okay, I'm just gonna say that. And it's very difficult for me to be overly, overly nice but there is something that that I need you to hear that. Um, when Michael left and you laughed,

you left at the same time, weirdly coincided. It was so are It's like, where is Michael Steve left earlier today? But um, it needs to be acknowledged that, you know, for us, Michael Scott was an amazing creation, but you were equally as special. That's really nice of you to say, Um, well it was. It was a special group and to find that dynamic, you know, actors, a TV show, you know, throwing all of that aside, just to have a group of people that you care so much about and and

you can't wait to see the next day. I tend to do that though. Career wise, I tend to leave, and I've done this a few times. I left Second City when it just was it was the best job in the world. I couldn't imagine it being any better. I was having the most fun of my life. I gotta go. I gotta go because I don't want to get comfortable. And I did the same thing on the Daily Show. I was there or four years or so, and okay, this is perfect. And Nancy, my wife, we're

both correspondents this is fantastic, love it. We're having a ball, and we both decided I gotta go, you know, we get let's just keep it moving on. And and I sort of did the same thing on the office, like it like you don't want it to And maybe it's maybe it's out of fear. Maybe maybe it's like you don't want it to turn a corner in any way, You don't want it to be any in any way less than it ever was. Um, so maybe that's maybe that's something about me that you know, I should examine,

see somebody about. But it's so so maybe it's a defense mechanism that way. But I was just so proud to be part of it, and it was very difficult for me to leave, um because I loved everybody. Um. I didn't start by asking this because it didn't occur to me. And then people started talking, and I've been asking people what was the greater loss? Was it Steve or was it Michael Scott? And two stories have come up a number of times. One I haven't heard. I

don't want to share this with you. Mike Sure, Um he said this. There was a budgetary meeting and they were trying to slash budget because they were always trying to slash the budget, and one of the things on the table was reducing the size of the cast. I can't remember who was there, but there were executives in the room, and Steve, who was a producer at the time, said nope, nope, no, no, no, like he said no like eight times in a row. It's not happening. That

is not going to happen. And it just shut it down. It shut it down forever, and no one ever brought it up again. And I think that everybody felt that from you, that the ensemble was so important to you, and um, I don't even hope there's a question that I it was. It was a really it was a very strong thing inside of me, that group, and I felt very protective of everybody. But I think everyone felt that way, you know, standing up too, like no one was going to put any one of us down in

any way. But I got that sense from not just the cast, but the crew and the writers and all the producers. Again, it sounds like such a crock and you know, I sound like I'm accepting a that's what I said, You've died, and it's not. It's no, it's not that. But it's and look, it's part of it is that you said, like, no, these were the guys who were here, this is our show. Can you imagine?

I mean, can you imagine at that point? And I wasn't a producer until a few years in we were down the road that had to be like season four, So I mean, no, there's no way, like what, No, it didn't make sense, um unless people wanted to move on, unless they're but for financial that's the other thing, the budgetary. Do you remember the product integration stuff that we had to go through Shredder it was the staple Shredder, it was Chili's Man. That was a thorn in my side.

I remember when one executive came in and said, Hey, for budgetary reasons, we would like to partner up with some of these companies and do some product integration. And that is that. That's definitely the one time I feel like I raised my hand and said we can't. I'm very much against us because I think it it definitely changes the show. If we are serving a corporate master,

there's no way the show will be the same. If we're putting in any sort of products, it's going to alter how we write the show, how we performed the show. I was dead set against it, and they went ahead and did a couple of things anyway, and and each time they were disasters, they were they were terrible. I wasn't even going to bring that up to you. But what Greg talked about that, he called you, um, a

great improver of life. He told the story about Chili's coming and saying, no, Pam can't be drunk, and he Greg, he said he was full blown panicking. Yeah, we were like three days into the show. We're going to lose the whole episode. Yeah, and you said no, Well, and you just that's what he was talking about, like a life improperly, here's the situation. Let me find let me let me find the yes and or whatever. Yeah, we

found a way out of it. Yeah. Um, do you have any specific memories that you want to share from from your last day or a few days on set in the last episode there that was so well for starters.

Six months before I talked to Greg about how I wanted Michael to go out, like what I thought sort of final arc would be, and the idea that I pitched was, you know, obviously he in Hollywood, be together, but I said specifically on his last day, I thought that there should be a party being planned, but that he should basically trick people into thinking he was leaving the next day, because I just thought that that would be the most um elegant representation of his growth as

a human being that he Because Michael lives to be celebrated. You think that's all he wants. He wants to be the center of attention, and he he wants pats on the back. He wants people to think he's funny and charming and all of those things. But the fact that he'd walk away from his big tribute, his big send off, and be able to, in a very personal way say goodbye to each character, that to me felt like it would resonate and it was almost more than I bargained for,

because that's what happened. I had scenes with everyone in the cast, and it was it was It was emotional torture, because imagine saying goodbye for a week. It wasn't you know, see you later and you wave and you're you're out. No, it was like just fraught with emotion and and joy and sadness and nostalgia. But it was also really beautiful,

like I treasure. I'd like treasure just doing that episode because it did allow me to kind of have a finality with everybody, and and they were all different, like like I had one with Toby that wasn't wasn't wasn't. Very nostalgic at all, but very fitting of my But even in that certainly not as a character to be nostalgic, but to kind of have that final scene with Paul, you know, I can't show the emotion that's actually waited behind it as a human being for just me and Paul.

Uh So it was it was a dance, you know, it was tricky. But um, I remember the last take and we were shooting in the bullpen. We were shooting in the main set, and I started to feel like, oh I I felt like, I think they're more people in the vicinity because all I could see were the cast. But then I just got the set. You know, you just get a sense of like, Okay, something something's happening.

It's got some something's happening. Um And as soon as that last take, the room just filled with people and you know, it was all the writers and crew and and it it was well, I mean, you were there, you it was. It was ridiculous. It was ridiculously emotional. Um. Someone told me leading back up to the finale of the series that why would Michael come back? And you said, well,

if do I got married? Is that true? I had told Greg, I just don't think it's a good idea because I felt like Michael's story had definitely ended, and I was reticent about coming back because I didn't want that ending to be at all about Michael, because you guys had two more really valuable seasons and I just didn't feel like it was right for Michael's return to take anything away from that. That was everyone else's ending. Michael had already had his, So I just didn't want to.

But at the same time, I felt like I should, out of respect for all of you guys and out of my love for everybody, to you know, to acknowledge the the ending of this thing. Your kids watch that never, No, come on, they've never watched it, and I completely get it, Like, why would you That's just weird, you know, watch your dad do that thing? Really though? Okay, so my daughters are freshman college and you said you going that was became a thing because everyone's watch He's totally cool with it.

It's not, you know, over that weirdness, and nobody makes a big deal of it at college. But taking a course in communications and the subject matter was like the paradox of comedy or something. Then this is like a big lecture, like a huge man and they are studying an episode of the Office, which she's never seen, and she she texted us like it was really funny, liked, but she said it's so weird. She said, I never thought I would be studying something that you do that

my father was in like for a course. I just I just think that's hilarious how that has come around on Oh my gosh, so funny. Um well, I thank you, thank you, that was unceremonious, noble. Will you get out? Actually, I no, seriously, I UM so good to see you. It's truly so good. And weirdly, it doesn't feel like that much time it's past. I know it's such a cliche, but like I'll run into then I'm like, oh, he

is gonna look really different. Now. By the way, what does this mean whenever anyone walks in there, like, you look exactly the same. Everyone looks exactly the same to me, But you know what. It's all I have you ever been to reunion like a high school reunion? And no, I avoid people. You've ever gone to one? Um, No, I don't know what I have you. It's it's an interesting phenomenon because you might see something. I just went back to college for a reunion of my improv group.

Of all things. It's the fort. It was at anniversary on the of the creation of this improv group, so I went back to celebrate that with them, and there were people I hadn't seen since college and I graduated in eighty four, so it had been a long long time.

And some people like when you see them, there's that immediate oh my, like that is a very different looking person, and within fifteen seconds they look exactly like they did because they are who they were, and it's you immediately process back to you know, whoever they were at the time, although you do look exactly the same, you really do. It's amazing. UM, thank you so much for coming in,

Thanks for talking to me. I so appreciate it. And I we may not see each other very often, but I value your friendship and I'm always so happy to watch you in anything that you're doing. Really Yeah, it's so good to see you. Yeah, thank you. Thanks Nancy making friends and gip o friend sip please give her my best too. Good lord. Oh man, I don't know about you, but I could just start that right back over from the top. Uh. Steve, my friend, thank you

so much for sitting down with me. I mean it's not like you have anything better to do, or like a bunch of movies and TV shows to make, but still thank you and listeners, thank you for listening. Let me know your thoughts on this episode in the reviews. It is so helpful for me and my team. And if you enjoyed listening to Steve, well keep an eye out or or in an ear out because we will have him back on a future episode with a very

special guest. Until then, we will have lots more interviews coming your way, so we will see you next week. The Office Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer, Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer, our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor is die Go Tapia. My main man in the booth is Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend Read Bratton,

and the episode was mixed by seth Olandsky. Hello, this is Christina Hutchinson and Karin Fisher. We're thrilled to announce that our show, guys, We the Anti flut Schaming Podcast is returning to wide release. That's right, every Friday we talked to one of our favorite comedians or an expert in the field of sexuality, love and relationships to hear what all the fos are about. Subscribe now and listen

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Katie is a pack rod and she has basically her own archive of sorts in her basements. Plus, Katie explores some of the big news stories she's covered over the decades and the people behind them, like Anita Hill, I thought I could just get back to my life, and that was impossible. It was not going to be the same. There's plenty of Katie's signature curiosity and no holds barred interviews,

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