Stephen Merchant

and entertainers to victims, crime and law enforcement. We cover all facets of the game. Gainster Chronicles podcast doesn't glorify from modilicit activities. We just discussed the ramifications and repercussions of these activities because after all, she played gamester games. You are ultimately rewarded with Gangster prizes. Our Heart radio is number one for podcasts, but don't take our award for it. Find against the Animal's podcast and my Heart

Radio app wherever you get your podcast. We've all felt left out, and for people who moved to this country, that feeling lasts more than a moment. We can change that. Learn how it Belonging begins with us dot Org brought to you by the Ad Council. I'm Stephen Merchant. I was the co creator of the British version of the Office, and I'm an executive producer on the American version. Hello, dear listeners, and welcome to another installment of The Office

Deep Dive. I am your host, Brian bom Gartner. Now today I am thrilled to present you with a guest from across the pond over in jolly old England, Mr Stephen Merchant. Steve In was the co creator of the

original British version of the Office. He along with Ricky Gervaise. Now, what the two of them did with that show was truly groundbreaking and obviously was the inspiration and basis of our show, but they have also had a huge influence on comedy in general, both here in the US and in the UK, where based on their accents I'm guessing

they are from. So you know, when we were setting up these interviews, I was kind of thinking, oh, well, I might get a free trip to London out of this, right, I mean, I've I've got to meet with Ricky and Stephen in person. Of course I gotta go to London. And then a global pandemic happened. So sadly that was not going to happen. But I feel very lucky, uh that we got to speak by phone from our respective homes.

I think you guys are going to love this one. So, without further ado, my tallest friend, Stephen Merchant, Bubble and squeak, I love it. Bubble and squeaker, Bubble and squeaker cookie every month left over from the NATT before. Yeah, how are you doing? You know, I mean as well as anyone can be expected to, you know, given the crazy circumstances. Yes, you're you're in London, I mean London, and same lockdown

rules apply here as they apply restaurant. And yeah, just you know, porting around, I mean in quite a relax outfit. I think the demarcation between my sleepwear and my daywear is very, very blurred. Ka. I know the people who get dressed up to go to work at home, I don't understand those people. I do encourage at least showering before you start working. Really, Yeah, that's a good idea.

It's a good rule of thumb. Yeah, it's probably good. Um, how did you know Ricky before you guys started the office, or how did that come about? Well, so I met Ricky Gervaise at radio station here in London. I had wanted to get into radio. I always thought that being like a radio DJ seemed like a very easy job. You could do maybe two hours a day, and then you would give you a lot of free time to do other stuff, whether it was writing or stand up

or whatever other aspirations I had. So I was keen to get into radio, and I am I was quite young, I was in my early twenties, and I sent my resume to various radio stations and no one cared. But a new radio station was launching in London, and one of the guys who happened to read my resume was Ricky, who was just got a job there. And he had never had any experience in radio. And it's not how sweet talked his way into a job to air as get this that the head of speech, the head of

job title, the head of speech. I mean, if you've ever heard Ricky string of sentence together, often it's incoherent. So I don't know how he got that gig. So he immediately decided he needed an assistance. And so I was available and keen and eager, and and so he called me for an interview, and we hit it off, and and I started working at this radio station together. Right, he needed an assistant, but really he needed someone to

actually teach him speech. Oh and also someone who, as he himself admitted during the interview, someone who will do all the work for me. Um. And I was kind of eager, and I didn't have a job, and I had done a little bit of sort of amateur radio and student radio, so I had a little bit of

an understanding of it. And so, you know, we we hit it off very quickly, similar sense of humor, and within short while we were sort of actually hosting a radio show together on on the air, and just had a good easy rapport, you know, and and a similar sensibility and and we sort of very quickly realized we you know, we had sort of a chemistry, right. And then you obviously you you started working together. What were the influences for you at the time to create the

UK Office. Well, at the time in the UK, there had been a number of shows on the BBC and other networks that were fly on the wall documentaries about very everyday subject like there was there was one about a driving school, driving school, Yes, and it was, yeah, and so you know, it was just following normal people doing driving lessons and driving tests and this kind of a wave of popularity in the UK. And so when we did our version, we had those sorts of shows

in our mind. And one of the unusual things about those shows was that often partinking when they returned for like a second season, the people within them had sort of become moderate, moderately famous, right, So they were those first kind of reality TV stars, and and they started to act differently in front of the cameras or they were aware of the cameras, and so I think that was something that was always informing us, you know, the

idea that this documentary team, we're following this person in the in the case of David Brent Ricky, who who was also aware that he was being filmed and so therefore was trying to give over a version of himself that he thought the world would love to see. And of course what he didn't realize was they are actually looking at him and finding interesting different reasons than those

that he intended, right right, Yeah, that's very interesting. I mean, now the skips ahead like you know, fifteen years or whatever, but it's very interesting you know. That's one of the things that Greg Daniels always said was that for the characters on the American version of The Office, if they ever saw themselves, like if it was ever really least, it would change everything right. Well, in the in the British version, we did, because the British version has fewer seasons.

We did when we returned for some Christmas specials towards the end of the run, we did actually play with the idea that the characters had seen the documentary it aired and that they had various or particularly the case of Ricky's character, had disgruntlements about the way they've been portrayed, which is often the complaint you'd hear from real reality people, right that, you know, and they kind of in a certain way they maybe look like And so we were

playing with that idea, and I guess you had it with sort of MTV is the real world, I guess did. It was one of the pioneers. And in the UK there was that show Big Brother, which I know is still on in various versions all over the world, and that just kind of hit the airwaves as well, and those people were coming out of this this house as reality TV stars so it was a big cultural thing

at the time. Right. Were there specific comedies or other television that sort of informed the sense of bility, do you or the sense of humor that you were looking at at the time. Well, certainly This is Final Tap was a big influence, and the Larry Sanders Show was something that we often referenced. And there's actually been quite a few if you had fake documentaries in movies over the years, but there had been fewer of them on TV,

it seemed to us. And and you know, in a way because it sort of originated because I happened to get a job at the BBC. I was worried in my radio job with Ricky that we might end up getting fired rich I think we did. So I had jumped ship and I joined the BBC, and while I was there, I had a training exercise and they gave me a camera team for a day and they said, you want to go to film something? And I went off and went to Ricky and I said, let's film something.

And what we filmed sort of became a prototype of the office. And one of the reasons we did that in a documentary style was because it was quick and easy, you know, it didn't. It didn't need to have all the kind of polish and refinement that you get on regular TV. So in a way, we we you fell into this format through circumstance, but because we pursued that, and we became very obsessive about the reality of this

world and wherever the cameras being. How would the people act in front of the cameras they knew it was watching them. Would they be honest? Would Kim states at dawn? Jim and Pam? Would they would they be honest with each other about their feelings? For one, Well, of course not, because the cameras are in their face and they don't want to reveal their hidden secrets. And so it sort of started becoming its own thing, which I think felt

at the time quite new on TV. But it wasn't sort of like a you know, a grand design, and we didn't sort of sit there and think what's fresh and new. It just all these things kept suggesting themselves to us because we were trying to make you feel as realistic as possible, as though you could stumble on the TV network and you'd find out and you might think it was a real documentary. In fact, funny enough, after the first episode aired, I was on a train

and obviously people have no idea who I was. I was just a writer. And these two women were talking on the train and I was sat next to them and they said. One of them said, or did you see that documentary on TV last night about this crazy guy in this office? It was hilarious, And the other woman said, well, no, I think I think that was a new comedy and the first woman said, oh, well,

it wasn't very funny. Then I didn't understand. But but what was interesting was that she had been fooled for a second into thinking it was the real thing, which was the biggest compliment that we could we could hope for, right, I mean, I remember hearing that a lot over here. Did how was it received early on? I think he was sort of had very low viewership initially. Um. I think there's been some good critical notices here and there,

but no one was really watching. I think it went on in the summer, which is not a prime TV time in the UK. And I remember they had done it.

We found this out many years later, but they had done a test screening for the general public and it had got the lowest test score ever The only thing that beat him, that got the lowest test score was women's lawn bowls, a very specific game played by I guess women in the UK and they roll balls along the lawn and that was the only thing that I didn't even though that was on TV, but it scored lower in the Office. And yet what happened was it

just started to pick up steam. It got word of mouth recommendations from people, It started to win some awards. It was rerun in the in the winter, and more people started watching it. And then there was the moment in time when DVDs were really big and was started buying DVD players, and so I think that it started selling a lot of DVDs because I think people were like, oh, I can buy that guy I know in the office

that show called The Office. And so solely we sold so many DVDs because he was called the Office and people have a lot of work colleagues they need to buy gifts for. It's a and then it and then it just became a kind of here in the UK. It became a little mini phenomenon. Yes, well in the States too, we were getting I remember there were DVDs coming over. But the DVDs in the UK were different than so you had to make sure you've got an

America one that would play an American player. Yes, of course, yes, my sister had an early one who was over there. But yeah, I, um, did you think that adapting the show when you started to first hear about this guy Ben Silverman maybe wanting to adapt it for the U S,

did you think that was a good idea? Well, I remember, Ricky, I was we must have been editing something because Ricky, remember cam in the editing stree you said, I just ran into this guy called Ben Silverman or Ben silver gonna track him down and then pulled him and he had this initial meeting about doing a version for the United States, and I remember saying at the time, oh, well, that would be great, but the chances of that working

are very slim. I when I was a kid, I was a real fan of TV and Comma read a lot about it, and I knew a lot about American comedy, and I knew that they had tried to adapt very successful British shows for America, and any of them had failed for one reason or another, and so I was aware that the success rate was very low and that and that we shouldn't get too excited about this as a sort of potential next phase of our careers because I just I just thought, well, it's probably not going

to work out, even with the best will in the world, So why not let's let them do it, and you know,

good luck to them, and it would be fun. And I was a big fan, and I'm a big fan of American comedy, and you know, certainly a big influence on us was like Cheers and the idea of you know, the Cheers bar is this kind of surrogut family, which is very much what the Office is, I guess in anyways, And so we were excited about the idea of it being on American TV and having an American version, but but also very realistic that it seemed unlikely it would

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that they're fakes. I'm Alec Baldwin and this is a podcast about deception, greed and forgery in the art world. You knew the painting was fake. Um, Listen to Art Fraud on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. The Gangster Chronicles podcast is a weekly conversation that revolves around the underworld, the criminals and entertainers to victims, crime and law enforcement. We cover all facets of the game. Gainster Chronicles podcast doesn't glorify

promotilist of activities. We just discussed the ramifications and repercussions of these activities because after all, you played gamester games. You are ultimately rewarded with Gangster prizes. Our Heart Radios number one for podcasts, but don't take our award for it. Find against the Chronicles podcast and my Heart radio app or wherever you get your podcast. So that Silverman approaches you about adapting the series for America, do you remember

the first time you met Bend. I don't think anyone can forget. The first time they meet Ben Silverman. You know, he isn't sort of as you well know, a kind of force of nature. Um, just yeah, it's like a man who has drunk, you know, fifteen espresso's just directly before the meeting to just really get himself awake. And he's often running, and he's whenever they do movies about Hollywood, they always have like a producer character. It was like

a talk talk about a minute. You know what we're gonna make, You're gonna starts kid, And he's kind of like that. You know, Benny is like the kind of Hollywood producer cliche that you see in movies. And yet listen, it works. You know, he's dynamic and he and he got the thing moving and it seemed like, you know, before we knew it, we were having meetings in the US, sitting down to talk with potential show runners and and

we were off to the races. Did you so, you know, you you trust this guy Ben, and you meet Greg and you feel like he understands it. Was there a certain point that you thought that it might work for American audiences or were you still being sort of realists

and skeptical that it would translate. You know, we were very infused by Greg and Gregg came to London and he sat with us and we kind of dissected the British version and we tried to explain, you know what, you know, the kind of socio economics standing of all the characters, so he could kind of get his head around where they would be equivalent in the US. Where would you know, Scranton replace his slough and all these

other things which he had to kind of understand. And he was very sensitive and thoughtful about that stuff, which is exciting for us. But then it was obviously then he's casting and could they find the guy that would

replace Ricky? And so I just remember each step of the way we were kind of not suspicious or nervous, but just thinking, oh, they still probably evaporate right well, and the show struggled, you know, early on for you know, people didn't get it, and it was so unlike anything that was on television and in America we didn't have. Also the shows that you were sort of directly mocking, right there was like you know, MTV is the real world, right,

but those were all about sexy young people. There wasn't driving school or shows like that that that you know, it was sort of directly mocking. And I heard a story as well that, you know, when we came back and we were going to come back for a season two and they only offered six more episodes, and it certainly looked like they were, you know, because Steve had four year old version. They were sort of keeping us on life support because they didn't want to look like idiots,

but they still didn't believe in it. That NBC said, Okay, you can do six, but you have to cut the budget and everybody has to take less. And Ben went first to you and Ricky and thought you guys would say like no, like this is this was the deal that we made, but that you were egg Ricky, everybody said no, let's give it a shot. I mean, do you remember was that just based on you wanting the show to go on, or did you at that point

think that there was something that was brewing there. I definitely remember thinking I was very pleased with what Greg and everyone had done in that first season, but I do remember thinking that I actually wanted them to break away from the British version more. I still felt there was a little bit of a feeling of like clinging onto some of the vibes or elements, or or trying to be a little too faithful to us. And what was exciting was the more that the show was moving

away from the British version. And I think whether it was a conversation with greg Or, but I certainly felt that that was a plan that was starting to brew for this second season, and I was very keen, and I know Ricky was just to kind of you know, we we liked everybody and we wanted to show to do well, and whatever we could do to help and

keep it on the air was important to us. I mean, the funny thing for us, you remember, is that we were here in the UK, so this was before streaming services, so we only saw the episodes on like DVDs because they had to mail over to us and we would watch them. And you know, what was weird to me was that when we did our version, we were so involved that obviously we never got to kind of enjoy it as a viewer. You know, we only ever enjoyed it,

you know, in little fragments here and there. But when we got sent these DVDs from America, it was like someone had designed this show that was like on our prototype, and we were getting to enjoy it as fans, you know, we would just sit there and laugh and enjoy it, and and it was weird. It was like some kind of weird competition where you write in, hey, would you make a show about this? And they sort of mail into you every week, you know, And so we were

very keen just as fans. We were keen to have it keep on the air. So you liked it, you like you like I liked it? Yeah? Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. I thought everyone was gray and honestly I was. I was all in. Yeah. In season two, you know, one of the things that you know was done. You talk about veering from the British show, and I think a major thing that happened there in season two was the decision to soften Michael Scott, right, to not make him

exactly like David Brynn. I mean, David Brent to me is a genius character that had a shelf life, right, like after twelve episodes, it's hard for him to still have a job, right and to have the show, to have the show continue, you know, softening and bringing out more of the humanity of Michael Scott. Were you in

support of that. Well, it's funny because I think again it goes to what the traditions are in our two countries in terms of comedy, and I think for years in the U came in particular, there's been this long tradition of TV comedies celebrating losers and sort of laughing and losers often losers who have a slightly malevolent quality

or a selfishness to them. So I think back to in the in the sixties, but the biggest TV star in the UK was a guy called Tony Hancock whose character was a kind of sort of failed actor who was kind of snobbish and would happily, you know, screw someone over for an opportunity, and that was that was a show that cleared the streets when that was on, you know. And then John Ketu's Basil Faulty in the seventies,

the kind of sort of obnoxious hotel manager. So there's a long tradition in the UK of slightly unlikable leading characters in comedy. A plus combined with the fact that somehow in the UK we tolerated that bitter sweetness, that melancholy. I mean, there was a show on that was a big show in the UK when I was growing up called Whatever Happened to the Likely Lads? And it had a theme chong and the opening lyrics of the theme song of this this is a sitcom? Remember where was? Oh?

What happened to you? Whatever happened to me? What became of the people we used to be? I mean it was all about failed opportunities and and miss chances and lives a life that could have been lived and everyone. So there's that sort of tradition in the UK, and I think traditionally in the US that has not been so much the case in network TV. And when you think of friends, the friends teemed true for instances very different.

You know, I'll be there for you, You'll be there for So I think it seems sensible to me that if they could rewire the Office at all, it would just be to maybe downplay some of those more sort of cynical, sour British elements and just start up a bit more of that American can do right optimism, which I felt they did without I think losing the fundamental

DNA of what makes the show work right. Mike Sure specifically talked about Greg mentioning the show in season two could exist exactly the same as as in the season one. The episode could be exactly the same, but just at you know, of just a little bit of hope, just a little bit of positivity for Michael Scott to make people at least potentially see some good in m whether it's giving him a love interest, you know, you're finding out he's actually he's actually good at his job in

a way, you know, like those kinds of things. Well. I also think what both of the characters have in common, though, is that behind all of the things which make them kind of dislikable unlikable, they're not bad people. They're sort of just a needy people, right, And that's their great weakness is that they want to be your friend, but they also want to be your boss. And that's the thing which I think is what you when you dial

into that. I think what you know, Steve Corral managed to do and the writers did was kind of bring that out more, bring out that kind of that he's a little boy really in a world of adults. And once you die into that and you see that there is a kind of lonely sweetness behind it all, then I think you start to kind of really root for the character. And I think Steve in particular has such

a likable quality. But the more they could being into that part of Steve, the more popular thing of the character be well you you know, you co wrote The Convict, you directed Customer Survey, and in both of those episodes actually that we see a very vulnerable side to Michael Scott. And it's interesting that those two episodes were two that

you worked on a lot. That in The Convict that he's upset that his employees think that prison is better than his office, and you start to feel, isn't it ironic that I mean, I know, I don't want to sort of play you know, partisan politics, but I mean I think whatever side of the political spectrum you're on, you'd have to admit that there is a great deal of that in in the current president of the United States, and you know, Trump has this weird neediness to be

loved but also feared and respected, right, and it's a very weird mix, and it never leads to happiness because there's such a dark well, however much validation you get, it doesn't matter how many good with you you get, They're only obsessed about the one bad with you. And I think that's sort of what Michael Scott and Donald

Trump share. And you know, and I think that's the thing which always has made me find him so funny as a character, because there's this never ending well of neediness and you just keep you can keep traveling in the compliments and the praise and the laughter, and it will never be enough. And for whatever reason, I just find that both adorable and hilarious at the same time less iforable in the case of Donald Trump. But say my point, um, well, I mean talking about politics, but

not talking about politics. I mean, the British Office itself started with the premise of redundancy, right like, it's something that's a serious issue for people. I mean, the idea of of not having a job, and you know, the American Office in the end examined that as well, but also took on serious social topics, gay issues, healthcare, race relations, that small businesses going under corporate greed. You know, by by the end of our run, looking at the financial

crisis was looking at real issues. How did you feel

like that played out in the American version. I think our starting point had always been just being true, making true observations about our experience of office life, and we had virgin offices, so we were trying to kind of be particularly accurate about that, the way people interact with the behaviors, the strange little training exercises you had to do, and the and the sort of bureaucracy of it, and the fact that this group of people were just arbitrarily

brought together and were then forced to sort of get on. And as we said in that one of our episodes, you know, you spend more time with those people than you do your own friends and family. And so that was I think the jumping off point for us was like, could we make something that felt very truthful and people

recognized their working life in the show. And I think what you guys were able to do because of the share run of your show was just broaden that observation out beyond the sort of parameters of the office into those bigger ideas of you know, of relationships and and marriage and career and how the bigger world impacts on the smaller world. And you know, and obviously they were able to expand the repertoire of the characters and so you know, all of the characters, including your own, we're

sort of able to be explored and deepen. So it's just I mean, one of the things I've always loved about American shows is you just have so much more reading space than air time. Just really delve into everything. Hi, I'm Hillary Clinton and I'm excited to be back with a new season of You and Need both. You know, when we started this podcast, we were going through some tough times, and let's face it, we still are. But

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Black Girl. Each week, I sit in close conversation with one of my favorite authors of color and share stories about how they found their voice, hone their craft, and navigated the publishing worlds, and composed some of the most beautiful and meaningful words I've ever read. We journey together through the cultural moment where art, culture and literature collide and pay homage to the women whose books we grew up reading. And of course, I check in with members

of the Well Read Black Girl Book Club. It's a literary kickback you never knew you needed. And you're all invited to join the club. So tell your friends, tell their friends so we can be friends who love books. Listen to Well Read Black Girl on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. The office you know as you created might be the greatest example in television history of cringe comedy. How would

you define cringe comedy? I think one of my great flows is I it never occurred to me in a way that this, this cringe comedy thing would would be a label. It was not an intention to make people squirm. It was it was just that for us, it was so much funnier when someone who was trying to be funny, for instance, said a joke and then you just heard the silence, and then you just sat in the silence for as long as possible. That I don't know why,

Ricky and I just found that so funny. And like, for instance, there was a thing we used to say. There was often if you come back to old episodes of The Simpsons, you'll see like one of the Simpsons characters will give a speech in front of the town and the speech will bomb and it will just cut to all the townsfolk and you'll just here, huh and to whats that was so funny and so are our attempt After all, the kind of David Brent's bad chokes was just to sit in that uncomfortable silence, and that

just made us die with laughter. And it was only when we started hearing from people, oh that made me feel really uncomfortable, or I had to watch it through my fingers. Only then did it occur to us or maybe this is not always as enjoyable for people as

it is for us. And I think maybe it was like I think if you work on a horror movie, because you know the blood is faith and the knife is not real, you can just keep adding more violence and more bloodshed, right, and this is great, and then when you watch it with an audience and it was

just horrible. And I think for us it was a bit like that, like we just it was so funny to us and just keep turning the screw and making this world uncomfortable that we didn't occur to us that people would find it cringeworthy until they started telling you to. And then of course we just doubled down and then we're like, oh, well, now, well now we're going to

really lay it off. Well, right, like there is I mean just calling a spade a spade, right Like, there is a difference between trying to tell a joke that bombs or the Simpsons speech and you know, like a joke. I can't remember the character, but I just heard this recently. It was pulled up. But like a character telling David Brent she's going on holiday and he says, exploring yourself, like that is more just that is well, I guess

I guess that. I think it was just it was just stay true to the character and this kind of this neediness and this attempt to be liked in this attempt to make connections, but also like slightly lastivious or I mean the big problem for him, for the Dif Brent character to some degree, Michal Scotts, they just didn't know when to shut up, right or they just didn't know what to say. And they were all but they always had to be talking. You know, sometimes silence is golden,

but not for them. They just have to speak. And they think they are great joke tellers. They think they're great in conversation. They think they have great personalities. They want to show off for the cameras that are filming them, and so they never shut up. And it's one of the great disparities between people who are like that. They just don't realize how they're coming across to the world. Right. So, again, to go back to Trump, Trump thinks he's killing it.

Every time he opens his mouth, he thinks he's crushing it. He never goes back thinks, oh, man, I some of what I said there was really garbled and doubloky, and that didn't make much sense. He's not thinking that, he's thinking, why didn't they love that? That was a great speech? What's wrong with it? That's the weird gap between those people. They said they can't see themselves as the rest of the world season. So to me, it makes perfect sense

that those people would would say those things. And yes, it is uncomfortable, I guess because those people are on I mean, I don't know. Maybe it's that in real life we just sort of tolerate them, or we walk away or we ignore them, and in the TV world, we just forced you to sit and watch this person, right, right. I mean, it goes to the idea that they just that both characters are truly just misguided in their approach, and certainly, you know, Michael Scott is played by Steve

korrell Is. It was one of my favorite jo I've told people, one of my favorite jokes that we ever did on the Office was Michael Scott really trying to have a bonding moment with Oscar and really wanting to understand, you know, his way of life, and and asking him what term would be less offensive than Mexican than calling him Mexican, and Oscar saying there's nothing offensive about Mexican. He's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, sure, but like, what's

something less offensive than to call you Mexican? And to me, that is like like he truly just doesn't understand. He's not trying to be he's trying to be woke right or PC, and he just doesn't get it. But that moment of cringe is like, but I think, you know, in some ways predated this conversation that everyone has now about sort of foke culture and appropriational those other things.

And at the time, certainly when we began Average and it was the beginning of sort of political correctness in the workplace and political critics being a very big buzzword, and people there are certain terms that supposedly you weren't like to use anymore, and the you know, in schools, you couldn't refer to the board, you have to refer to the chalkboard, and you know, and then the only system rules that manhole cover had couldn't be called they

had to be called maintenance cover. And there was a lot of sort of reaction to that and people saying, well, you're you're policing us, and you're policing the way we speak. And so there were a lot of people trying to be woke before they that term was existing and just not understanding and failing. And the reason they failed was because you shouldn't have to try. You should just hold someone like a person, and you shouldn't see their color

or their sexuality or anything else. And that was the problem. That was why they were hung up, is they couldn't they couldn't see them as anything other than a gay person, a Mexican person, you know, personal color, whatever. They couldn't see beyond that that was and so they their heart may have been in the right place, but they were they were still treating people as other right and as long as you do that you do. Yes, I heard

something recently that I did not know that before. Greg decided to oversee and come back for the last season, and he asked you to show run. Is that true? I remember, Yes, I remember him talking to me about the idea of being involved with those latest seasons or that last season. Yes, and I and I was very flattered, And that would have it would have been enormous fun.

I think for me it was probably like it would have been going back to the well of something you know, perhaps you know too late, or I moved on in my head, or for whatever reason. I think I just felt like it would it would just be weird, or I just wouldn't I didn't feel like it would be the right move for me. But my god, it would have been a blast. Yeah. I mean directing that episode of Customer Survey was one of the most fun I've

had in in all of my career. I mean I was only really around for a handful of weeks, but just being in the writer's room for the first couple of weeks and then on the splore with you guys, I mean it was just so much fun. I mean it really was. But in a weird way. I didn't have the kind of responsibility that you'd have if you were show running. You know, I could kind of dip in and and just part of the fun without as

much of the responsibility. How is the writer's room different than like, say, the writer's room in the UK, or or how was that experience different? Well, of course, in the UK traditionally, you know, British comedies are normally written by one or two people. There's very rarely a big writer's room. We don't do as many episodes, so there

isn't the need. So the British version of the office was just me and Ricky sitting in a room for six months, you know, hammering out the episodes, whereas you know, coming to the US it was Graham and you've got twelve or fifteen brilliant minds all throwing ideas around, these jokes, sort of pinging around. And I mean, to me, as a sort of fan of comedy and student of comedy, particularly American comedy, just being in that environment and seeing a different way of working and it was such a

thrill to me. In fact, I remember I was sharing some stories from my own experience when I first started working and I had thought about how I worked at a call center and I've done training, and the guy

who was doing the training assigned us. He would send us into one room and we'd have to make pretend be a customer, and we would call one of the other trainees he was another room, and they would be the person at the call center, and we, as the fake customers, would have to try and sort of practice

with them on how they could answer a call. And I remember that the guy wouldn't let me do it anymore because I was I was too nasty a customer, because I really just I just kept on improvising as just the worst person to have because I figured, if I'm going to do customer training, I better deal with

the assholes. I'm gonna need that information. And so I remembered selling that in the writer's room, and Lee and Jeans, who the writers, went off and wrote a version of that and gave it to Jim and to Dwight and Michael, and they put that in the show, and so that was that. I remember that being a real highlight of sort of this weird old fragment of my life suddenly being transposed onto ev. Did you like the way that the American Office ended that the story ended, I thought,

I thought it was wonderful. I thought it was lovely. Yeah, I thought it was really satisfying. And you know, no one was machine gunned down. There was something and I think, I think so stressing. I also thought that, you know, when when Michael Scott left, I thought that was a beautiful episode as well. I thought there was some really fine episodes, you know, when when characters were leaving or

when the show was really playing on the emotions. And I think again, that's one of the things I loved about American shows was that at their best, they're like soap operas with laughs. And I don't mean soap opera disparagingly.

I mean in the sense that you are so invested in these characters in this world, and you keep coming back, and you care about them and you love them, and you want the best for them, and you have opinions about them, and and that was what you know, those nine seasons did so sweetly and so successfully, I think. And so by the time the show leaves the air, it's like these friends of yours have all moved away. I mean it's sort of it's sad. What are you

most proud of in terms of its legacy. Honestly, you can't begin to understand. When I was growing up America and American TV was so remote to me, so distant, it was something I I adored. I mean, I watched shows that I loved, American shows I love religiously and pickly sitcoms like the ones I've mentioned, Mash and Roseanne and Frazier and Cheers and Friends. I mean I never missed an episode, you know. I was there when the

new ones started airing in the UK. I remember watching the first episode of Friends that the evening it aired in the UK. I was with it from the beginning. I watched every episode I was in, you know. And so to me to have been involved with the show, which which is that for American audiences and for worldwide audiences and is and it's taken to their heart in the same way that I took shows like that to mine.

That's the biggest thrill for me. It's to be part of that family of American TV comedy, you know, and put in the lineage of those other shows is such an overwhelming thrill for me. That's awesome. One last question, very final thing that's said In the American version of the Office is the talking Head by Pam To paraphray, she basically says that she thought it was weird when somebody came and wanted to do a documentary on these

people who worked in a paper company. But she says, in the end, I think it was a good idea because there's beauty in ordinary things, and isn't that kind of the point. And I think that, you know, Greg Daniels wrote that and to him that was the point. Do you have an idea of what was the point? Well?

I think you know, like with any good any good arts, if you can call TV sitcoms art, any good comedy, and any kind of art, it's about making us feel connected as people and and reminding us of the things which connects us and the and the similarities we have. And that's that's the great joy. That's the pleasure it brings that the connectivity that it provides, and that's why people love to laugh in a group in a comedy club or in a movie there because they want the

shared experience of laughter is unifying. So to me, that's what the show does is people they relate to the characters, or they see a version of themselves or a version of the person they could have been, or they say, that's just like my brother in law, that's just like the guy I work with. That stuff makes you feel like there's other people that think like you, you know, and they're living in the world and experiencing the world

like you, And it makes you feel less alone. And that's that's why I'm a fan of stuff, and I think hopefully that's why people are a fan of this show. Steven, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me for real. I really appreciate it. Yeah, I hope you stay safe over there and stay home and I don't know, sometimes soon we'll go to another Clippers game. Great. H that's all for this week, everybody. I hope you

enjoyed that conversation as much as I did. I mean, is it just me or do British people sound way smarter than other people? I feel smarter after hearing that conversation. Anyhow, Thank you so much to Stephen for joining me. I truly appreciate it, And to the rest of you. Tune in next week to hear my conversation with the other half of this dynamic duo, This comedic genius duo Ricky Gervais.

You won't want to miss that. And if you're liking this podcast, well don't forget to subscribe or follow in whatever podcast app you were using. I don't know, maybe even leave us a review, rate us highlight if you're feeling inspired. But until next time, everybody, please have a great week. The Office. Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Langley. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer, our producer is Emily Carr,

and our assistant editor is die Go Tapia. My main man in the booth is Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth Olanski. Hello, this is Christina Hutchinson and Karin Fisher. We're thrilled to announce that our show, guys, We the Anti flut Schaming Podcast,

is returning to wide release. That's right, every Friday we talked to one of our favorite comedians or an expert in the field of sexuality, love and relationships to hear what all the fos are about. Subscribe now and listen to the Luminary original podcast. Guys, We've starting January one on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. From the creator of The Bright Sessions,

comes a new fiction podcast for all ages. When a fellow student vanishes, Max starts to look into the disappearance. Her investigation draws her deep into the dark woods around Hastings and even deeper into the secrets and lies. The course through the veins of this sleepy town, This New Y a mystery from writer director Lauren Chippen, is an audio drama with heart and wit that involves the audience

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