Paul Lieberstein

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United States Forest Service and the AD Council. My name is Paul lie Verstein, and I am a writer and director and producer on the Office, and I played Toby. I've forgotten. I constantly forget that I've played Hello and welcome. Thank you all for being here. This is the Office Deep Dive, and I am your host, Brian Baumgartner. Today we have the quadruple maybe quintuple threat, Paul Lieberstein. Now,

despite the fact that he almost forgot about it. Paul is probably most famous for playing dunder Mifflin's h R. Rep. Toby Flenderson. Toby was a fantastic character, the character that everybody love to hate. Well maybe they just hated. Toby was the character that everyone just hated. But let me be very clear, Toby was hated Paul. Nobody hated Paul. He was one of our original writers. He was a director,

a produce, sir, and he was our boss. He was the show runner on the show from season's five all the way through season eight, which well that means I had a lot to talk to Paul about. And Paul blew my mind with so many things I had never heard before, multiple times during this conversation. So I am very excited for you all to hear it. So, without further ado, the most soft spoken man in television, Paul

Lieberstein Bubble and Squeak. I love it Bubble and Squeak on Bubble and Squeaker Cookie every month, lift over from the night before. Oh there is great. You've been doing a bunch. I've been doing a bunch. Yes, there's no way too much about the office, I way too much. And this is all off the record, correct, all of it. We're not going to record. And we're not we're literally not recording any of it. Wow, Hi, Paul, are we rolling? Um? I mean you know, we're just we're literally we're just

having a conversation. Oh you know what I'm saying. Again, it's all off the record, nothing's gonna be recorded. Um, how are you? How's it work going? All right, Yeah it looks yeah. Things are good. Yeah, family, family is kid, family is good. Work is sort of so so, but family is good. No, No, that's probably accurate. Family it's great. I got a lot of joy from family and not as much from not as much from Okay, I hear you. Alright, So rewind back in your mind like fifteen years. Okay,

we're going back like two thousand four. What were you doing in your work, not with your family? I don't know what I was doing. I mean held and there was the True Care Show, and then Bernie mac Show and then Greg the Bunny. I think Greg the Bunny was the last show that I had done. You were writing on Greg's Bunny? And then were you unemployed? At that point? I think I was free? You were free? Yeah?

Were you aware? I never really think about it as unemployed, just free because like our jobs come and go, right, So if you think about is unemployed, you can hit some very big loads in there. Trust man's just they come and go. Yeah, so you were free? Is free? Yeah? Were you aware of the British version of it? Yeah, you are very aware. I loved it. Yeah, I was

aware way before Greg was going to adapt it. I mean it would really hit the sweet spot of what I loved about writing UM and what I loved about TP. What do you love about writing? UM? I do like trying to catch real comedy as it seems to exist in the world for me, and I like, you know, situations,

and it's much less people cracking jokes. And I think there's a lot of room for people cracking jokes comedy, you know, And I enjoy it sometimes, but it's not what I'm interested in writing, right, Um, that was really unprofessional. I didn't silence my thing, damn it. Um, So life, you know, we hear noises, We hear noises that fa deal and planes that fly over it's going to stop their car? Like, what the hell was that? Um? What was your relationship with Greg prior to you coming to

work on The Office? Um? Well, very strong released it was he's my brother in law, right, So you've known each other for a while, for a very long time. Yeah, yeah, And you had worked together on King of the Hell. So you were a big fan of the Office. You knew it before he came on to adapt it. Were you excited about that? Thrilled? And I was thrilled when he asked me to be part of it, and I was quite nervous about taking it on. But I couldn't imagine not taking it onto, because then what am I

gonna do? Just work on something that is good. Why were you nervous? Well, because I loved the British It was done at a very high level and you know, um, you know, most adaptations don't work. But because of your relationship with Greg, you didn't know that you would be working on the show. But you showed up for some of the filming of the pilot. Yeah, just to hang out and see how it was going, and just this

kind of a viewer. Did you give notes? I think I suggested a few jokes, but you know, notes seems to be a word used when when someone has like an official role. Right, oh shit, okay, what are your notes? I'm not interested in someone's notes. If they have some ideas, I'd love to hear their ideas. Right. Um, So when did you find out that you would be joining the writing staff? I guess after the pilot was picked up.

He started putting it together and called. They also didn't have a lot of money, because you know, NBC wasn't releasing a lot of money, so he had a real scout on staff, and I think I was officially three days a week, although I started doing five days just because it was fun and there was lots to do. Yeah, I would not like coming in and something happened without me. It's like, wait a second, No, we just agreed on this, so that was better to be part of the whole thing.

What specific challenges did you feel or did you feel like the writer's room felt adapting the show that you know, critically and at least with a core group of people, was such a huge, colt amazing show. I mean, obviously we were really challenged. Everyone there loves the British show. I think we just we didn't want to just copy it,

nor did we want to abandon it. But I remember Greg saying early on that he kind of like took apart that show like a watch and put it back together and he knows exactly how it works, and so I think we just grabbed the principles of how it worked without grabbing anything else. I mean, there was definitely a mirror, like a fuzzy mirror on the English show where you could point to a lot of things and be like, okay, you know, American version. That's so that's

the American version of that English ning. But it really wasn't. I mean, Jim and Tim worst incredibly different as we're done, and Pam and and you can't even begin to compare Ricky and Steve. You know, do you remember feeling a pressure to make it our own or americanize it? No? No, it's felt the pressure to like live up to the quality of their show, right, Um, and the potential embarrassment that we faced. Yeah, when did you learn that you were also going to be an actor on the show.

So we we had a while before we started production. We were writing and writing, and nothing about it came up. It never crossed our mind. But um, I think we had the need for someone to come in and do one line. And Greg had this idea that he wanted to kind of break down the wall between the writers and actors, which is like Verry like strong sacred wall, this big tradition, and he thought, let's give it a try.

Let's break this down and you know, have some writers see what it's like to be on set and have more communication between the writers and the actors. And so I got the one line. But we were up all night writing and and it was like four in the morning, but we finally went home and then I kind of stumbled onto the set the next day. I had one line. I didn't really know it very well, and I didn't know Steve was going to improvise at all, and I was so tired when we did it, and I think

that would like infused the performance quite a bit. And Steve, you know, he wasn't the giant yet, you know he was. He was kind of another actor on set, So I mean, I can't imagine what it had been like coming in season four and having to act with them, right, I would have been really scary. But we got to know him as we went, so it wasn't so bad. And you know, we had such a forgiving as you know, filming style. You kind of couldn't make a mistake unless

you broke, which happened. Which happened, But I didn't break much. You didn't. I would just kind of stop and wait for someone else to talk, which always happened. Someone would jump in. I feel like I remember a big break from you when Rain got really close to your face and asked you where the Yeah, yeah, yeah, I definitely broke yeah. Um There was a moment in uh season one.

I was barely acting, you know, I was just figuring it all out, and we were doing a scene together and they kept trying to make me be louder, and I was like, I don't know why I would be louder because the person I'm talking to is right here. Why would I be louder? And you said to me, we're sitting next to the refrigerator, which is off. Imagine that it's got a really loud hum and you have to talk a little louder. Oh okay, that was the

beginning of acting. So I taught you everything you know? Well, you tell me one thing that I know. Yes, yes, Wow. It could have given me a little more credit there. No, I learned from everybody on set. Oh that's amazing. You said it's not traditional and there's this huge wall typically between the writing staff and the actors. How do you think that that difference in our show changed the dynamic it would have been. I don't think I should would have come out that way if there if there was

a strict wall. We were all on the same page with the show writers and actors, and we became so close with each character and actor and liked them and liked writing for them. And that often doesn't happen when they're so separate. The writers have one idea what the show is that they want to create, and the actors have a different and so they're fighting each other on

set just create without ever talking. They're fighting each other. Right, So I think, yeah, it was such a it was such a good I need to do Often that wall is there because of the producers and the director. Now, the director typically, you know, you're not supposed to have any sector. Is supposed to be the only person talking to you about your performance, right, And I get that. But at the same time, if you have you know,

the show goes for a little while. Actors know their roles better than the director, the writers know the characters better than the director, the DP knows the show better than the director. And the director is coming in knowing the least about the show of anybody, and we're all supposed to like not make the show better and just wait for the director to catch It's just it doesn't really work completely, right. It's the It's the thing about TV.

I mean, it's a great rule for a great rule for a movie, and I mean, you know, you can see like as a director too, and we all became directors. You know that building someone's performance, you want to tell them just a couple of things. You can slowly try to push them in a direction, and you know, it

matters how you say things. And I think we all generally respected that boundary while we were building a scene, but we all talked about the scenes beforehand and afterwards what was going to come up the stories, and when things weren't working, we just stopped and we just talked to each other. I've taken that with me into the future, like I always will show respect to a director, but I will walk the video village and have a conversation with the writer or the creators on set just about

the character or or what we're going for. I feel like I'm able to have a conversation with them and get to the core of actually what it is they're yeah, yeah, Which is that a director is just more skilled at having that conversation. Yeah, Yeah, I've really I'm really big it with intention. Now I'm working on the Space Force with Greg Now, so we were doing scenes with Steve and I tell him to say whatever he wants and just tell the intention, right, I mean, he's gonna say

whatever he wants anyway. But right, Um, did you feel like you had because of your relationship with Greg? Did you feel like you had a greater accountability to him when you started working Like, did you feel Yeah? I think you know, there's always the this I when two people are working together and related, there there's there's this sense of nepotism, you know, And I felt like I had more to prove and I wanted to, for both of our sakes, defend against that by just doing more

and being better, you know. Right, Um, I just want to talk a little bit about the form of the show. We began over time to find elements that we felt like worked that was going to create, you know, the best half hour of television, meaning in diversity day for example, like setting that episode in one day, having you know, having all episodes were one days most yes, as a rule. As a rule, yeah, yeah, and which I astally think that's something we broke a handful of times in two

And why was that important? When we were talking about the concept of the show. A documentary crew had come there that day for some reason, and everything we shot was contained in like their intention and the I know, at least the first few times we broke that rule, it was because a story lingered to the next day, so they followed it. But it was our feeling that they weren't there every day catching everything, whereas I think towards the end of the show we we said, no,

maybe they just are there every day. I have never heard this before. I swear to god, I've never heard this before. Yeah, why why did they come? Because they came because they knew, Um, this person was coming to talk to Michael about you know, a problem they received, you know, the Larry movement, diversity thing, or but there there was always that hook. Where were they there even if it was never stated or so like, oh today

it's the Christmas party? Yeah, exactly. You can imagine some days were not thing happened and they just didn't come. That is Oh my god, that's so awesome. Do we have that there? I loved that so much that do we have that? Why wouldn't we have it? Are you just recording it's this? Sometimes they just as you feel like something interesting happening. No, I'm making sure that it's clear from you. Um okay, So what did the Cold

Opens give us done? Um? What did that allow us to do Aside from that sort of core structure as we as we began to do those, I guess that it allowed us to take on something of a much smaller scope, a pure thing like you're bringing in Chile. It was not going to be an episode. It was a small thing, simple thing. One of the office workers brings in some food and here's our little he's fills it and there it is, right, I mean, side note, it is by far the thing that people talk to

me about the most. Oh, there is no question. How do you feel about that? Um? I thought it was a beautiful moment. I never thought it would be this. It was a humongous departure from almost anything that was ever done on the show. It was kind of controversial at the time. They were some people who didn't want to do it. Well, it's only one character for an extended monologue, largely played in voice over. Yes, that ends

in that. And they had shower. I showered and showered and scrubbed and just like throwing out dirty towels out of the shower to the wardrobe people. We filmed it obviously at the end of the day, and Oscar and Angela and I had a dinner that night at Mastros. We would do this occasionally, we would go out and have a nice dinner and just talk and be human beings instead of accountants. And I walked in and all I could do is smell chili all over my hands. Just it just it was just in my skin. Um,

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start exploring. I discovered the forest dot Org, brought to you by the United States Forest Service and the AD Council. So you think about the office as this place of ordinary stasis. But to me, what Greg and you did throughout the show was constantly change something which I think created a kinetic energy that kept spinning through. Was that something that you were thinking about at the time, like

trying to keep stirring that pot. Yeah? Absolutely, I mean I always thought putting Steve in with new blood and a new energy was like worth six episodes of just great comedy. Just every new person that you put next to him. So like Idris Elba, Charles Minor just so yes exactly, you know, who's clearly not a comedy guy, hasn't done comedy before or since. But that energy next to Steve was amazing, you know, and he just it's what happens to him, you know, and he becomes a

different pars Cathy Bates next to Steve, Holly Amy Ryan. Um, how do you feel like, in addition to those things, kind of leaning into more of the supporting cast, fleshing out those stories. How did that help keep the dynamic? Oh? Yeah, that was the key. I think. You know, this idea that there's five characters on the show was this age old idea. You know, sitcoms have been following that pattern for like as long as I've been watching them sixty years,

you know. Um, but there's no recent for it. And I'd say in the beginning, you know, it was five plus side characters, but that didn't last long. Everyone was a character and pretty equal. Um. And then taking turns and like saying okay, and again a lot of it was, you know, because Steve was the comedy Michael was the comedy driver. So picking the two, picking two characters to then create an episode around, say Okay, this is gonna be Michael Kevin or a Michael Stanley. You know what?

Did I stutter? Or we could just move that around and kind of take turns and we would get a completely different, new, fresh dynamic going. Right. How do you feel like the different relationships we move into kind of the love relationships. How do you feel like that made the show different than just a comedy because Jim and Pam was almost always played straight. Huh yeah, well it was charged, you know, so I guess it always felt straight because that's what you were paying attention to. Um. Yeah,

something like a relationship. There's just more at stake, and it's very relatable. So I think people are I think they could be having a comic conversation and you don't even hear it sometimes, right, interesting. I mean they had a lot of you know, they had no shortage of like pranks on Dwight, and that was a dynamic taken from the British that these two are going to connect with each other over pranking Dwight and I think there

was a ton of comedy and us. But what you saw you didn't register his comedy because what you really registerous love story. Right. There's another relationship that I think was maybe my favorite in the show. Will you play that clip? Why are you the way that you are? Honestly, every time I try to do something fun or exciting, you make it not that way. I hate so much about the things that you choose to be. I mean that when was the idea for that born It wasn't

born in diversity. Steve wrote that speech. Yeah, he hated And when I was watching some of those things last night, I mean his face anytime he is looking at you and angry at you in a way is completely trans He almost looks like a different person, and he's his energy. And at one point he's like, I hate your lemon head or it's just like crazy, it's like I'm a Nazi and he thinks he's doing a service to the

world by hating me. Well that, well, that's the other famous one, right, Like if I had two bullets and there was Hitler, Ben Laden and Toby, I would use both bullets and kill Toby to it. I think it happened in Meredith's birthday and we all had to sign

that card. So I just had to go in and said, oh, can I have a card and sign something really quickly and leave, and he would just watch me do it the whole time, take after takeing he was just standing there watching and he told me afterwards said he felt like the hate for me just just well up inside him during these takes. So it was so from that moment. Is that why you guys? Decided to write that story in or to continue that. You know, a lot of

it he would come from. I think the power of it came from Steve, you know, and he would always do more. Even starting with Diversity Day, he was just supposed to say he would, you know, get out or something like that, but he did more. He relished the moment and played with it. And I think he continues to do that. And really, you know, when we had these thirty six minute cuts and had to decide what would stay, when Steve loved something, he the performance would

be amazing. And I think that's what helped so much of the Toby Michael stuff stay right, just his pure power and just the pure power of his like, yeah being being there, corral genius. Right. Um, what was What's the episode that you were most proud of writing? That's a good question. Money was the first hour one that I did and I directed it as well, and Greg gave me total freedom. I ran the rewrite and everything.

I think that was the one where I like totally had control every line of it and I love doing that. I'm really I don't know, I'm really proud of I got nominated for Directors Guild Award for or an Emmy for directing one. That one was a really big deal of me because just where in my career it fell right. What was different about your episodes? Was there a particular

strength or interest that you had? Um? I liked setting up very simple situations where people were in basic conflict and really just letting things play with very like natural dialogue that I don't know. I think. I think that's probably a part of a lot of my episodes. If I go back right in the writer's room, would you, um, would you each have assignments based on what your strengths are or that was irrelevant? I mean, I don't know that.

We would work on a story for a while before it had a writer, and I guess in the signing of a writer there was thought to who's going to do this? Well? Okay, well because you ran the show for a while. We're talking about more about that a minute, So you were assigning the writers to the particularly when I was yeah, right, so would you say, oh, this is a b J episode and so b J you'd write this or well I'd never say it. No, we're

not out loowed, But but is that what you would think? Yeah? Definitely, v J. Was um, it's like one of the strongest joke writers I've ever worked with. I mean, he does a lot of a lot of strikes. Everyone had a lot of overall strengths, but his his sense of the joke was extremely sharp. And certain episodes, you know, kind

of require that, right. What about Mindy, You know, Mindy, I probably wouldn't have given her like an episode that had like it was based on lots of twists and turns and and big plot things, because she that was not her interest and people would excel when they're following their interests, you know. I mean she obviously she loved the romantic comedy, but it wasn't just that she loved but she wrote the Dundee's, right, he wrote the Dundee's she I mean, she I don't know where to begin.

She a ton of them. Yeah, And when I think about Mindy wrote the Christmas episode where You're sitting on Michael's lab, and I think that goes to the kind of the heart of some of the things that she did so amazingly, which was like, just find something that's funny and really play it out. And Greg loved that too, and that's one of the reasons today, which that's a

great team. Um So the writers strike happens season four. Um, do you remember anyway specifically that the office was tied to that strike, And you know, we were really having a moment in season four. We were very well respected. There was a lot to lose, and as it happened, the fact that Greg went out with the writers and struck set a tone for all the showrunners, you know, and it was because of them, and we could read

it online and see what they were saying. The fact that he kind of led the charge for shore runners to stick by the writers and shut down the shows because technically he could have worked. Um, I don't know that it's I mean, it was such a weird murky area rum. He could make an argument that he would have been on solid ground to continue to produce the shows. And you could also make an argument that you know, he had he had responsibility to to as a writer,

to to stop writing, because both were possible. He had a choice to make, you know, and a lot of show runners were very concerned about their shows and they do the best. They had to stockpile scripts and I think you know, the fact that Greg was striking was a big part of Steve not crossing the picket line, and that was what brought the the office to stop. My biggest lesson from the strike was, you know, I had taken notes from a lot of directors as I

was studying to be one. So we were in the middle of Dinner Party, we were about to shoot it, and one director scouted it. It was as as if like things were being presented to him and he was figuring out how he was going to shoot it. And and then we came back that event that director was not available and Paul Fi. We got Paul Fi to direct Dinner Party, and he came in and did the exact same scout, but bent that place. He came in with a vision and bent the place to to suit it.

He was like, paint these walls and you know. And it was then that I learned what a scout was, how how I needed to approach a scout as a director. I should fully imagine this space working for me in every possible way I can and say it. And I need to imagine it now in the scout, because three hours from now it's too late. I didn't tell the people what to do. Amazing, Um, how did you feel about when Greg decided to leave and go developed parks

and recreation. I know he was never gone gone, but how did you feel And when did you find out that you and Jen we're going to take the show over. Yeah? He and I just kind of went on a walk on Satici and he told me h and asked me if I wanted to do jan. I don't thought it was a big honor. Did you say yes right away? Yeah? Definitely right. I thought it was pretty pretty amazing. Were

you didn't scare you? Definitely? Sure? No, of course. Um, So what how did the writer's room change just pragmatically with with Greg and Mike both leaving. Um, Jen and I worked together so well, and we could we could kind of work together or take turns, kind of covering for each other when it thinks got really late, and we both liked each other's writing so much that it just made it easy. Right. I remember that it didn't feel to me as though much had changed, because it

wasn't like he was gone gone. It wasn't goodbye Greg. Yeah, And I think he really wanted to to be the face of that too, so he was he would be on the cause of the network. He would be at all the table reads and the places where he would typically interact. He kept interacting. He was definitely worried how

people would view it. But you know, at the same time, like Jan and I, I loved Greg's writing and it wasn't like you know, and I've been on a lot of shows that you know, when someone goes there, there could be the satage. Finally we get to do it all the way. Now we're really gonna pick up this show. You know people are going to see the difference here. Um No, that wasn't it at all. We loved Gregs writing, We loved what he did, and we just wanted to

keep doing that. Even though he gave me authority. I wanted him to like the show. You know, this was his show and after table, if he didn't like it, I would change it. I don't think I ever just said, well I like it, so we're doing it right. We would always find the overlap of where we both like the show. Do you feel like you have different sensibilities are generally similar? We have a big overlap, but then

we also have harrus where we don't overlap. What what would you say the biggest thing in the non overlap is. I don't know. It's not super clear to me, but I know I used to definitely feel much more comfortable going a lot darker than he would. That's exactly what I was going to say. Yeah, I could go dark. Anybody who is deemed to have power, who thinks differently

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show could continue or were you not sure? I'm not sure. I thought there was a lot of good reasons why we could keep going, and you know, we had done so much. I mean, he was seven seasons. I just tho there were some a lot left so the show could either find a new direction or it wouldn't work. And we talked so much about what kind of new

directions it could be. But then ultimately I wanted to keep going because we had a great cast, and that's the decision not to bring in somebody else huge from the outside and try to do a big gorilla, which we had talked about too. But we brought in James Spader, we did, but he was part time and it revolved and then we and then we did Katherine take for a while in that job. I think we were we

were finding it. It was not easy in season eight to figure out what the glue of the show was, right, it had a strong core before it was there was a guy who wanted more from this group than the group could give and almost everything came out of that. Right. I had a discussion I think it was with in a. I think it was her. If it wasn't her, we

can change this. But I had a discussion with somebody who talked about one of their biggest disappointments or regrets in the show was that it wasn't there wasn't enough confidence given to the people that we had, feeling like that we had to bring somebody else in. I think what I said, which I can sympathize with the decision, was that at that point, nobody who was there felt like a boss. Yeah. And the other thing was we

were getting a lot of pressure from the network. So the network, who had historically been behind us so much, just changed hands, just changed hands to Comcast just as Steve was leaving, and they wanted a big gorilla. They wanted a big star to come in and take it over, which we fought. I how to say, like they didn't even know all the characters names at that point, they weren't really following the show. I think we were just

a disappointing line item at the time. And then all of TV was losing its ratings, all of TV, right, and we didn't know how much of a hit we would take with Steve going um, but we took a pretty big one and they wanted those numbers up. But at the time, I mean, what we know now is that was happening everywhere and everywhere with if he had stayed right Um, there was no way to know. But that was behind a lot of the pressure we were getting. I was kidding. Was there a specific name that Comcast

was wanting to take over? Um. Lots of names were floated, Julia, Louis Dreyfus, James Gandelfini, someone who actually met with to explore it. But again, that was going to be in the in the part time range because I really did not want to put a new person in the office in Michael's chair. I just felt like, we're never going to get that right and we should just diffuse that thing and focus on everyone. We had interesting what I was doing, and you know, even when people came in,

they weren't the focus. No, absolutely, I'm surprised. I'm surprised. Yeah, Jenna's kind of I can't remember who it was, but I'll tell you so you can get mad later. I'm not mad, just really, really really hurt. You know, Um, any personal recollections from when Steve left. Oh yeah, it was so well, we were all so tight, you know. I remember like giving it like a little toast to him and getting choked up after his last scene. Yeah.

I was gonna miss him a lot and did. Yeah, we all did as a person, as a person, yeah, and as the genius that he was. Yeah, but I think it was you know, our experience of doing the show was the people and the talent was you know, it's a lot to do with the product. He was a great guy who set a tone on you know, I don't know that the first person to say this, but he set this tone that it was really important to treat people well and everyone was important. But he

was also just really fun to have her own. Yeah. I think we all just we're said to him, go yeah. Um. So how much were you aware of what Greg's vision for the entire series would be? Like it was I remember hearing early on, so I know you did that there was a beginning, you know, the documentary crew comes, there was a middle, and that Greg had a specific idea for what the would be. How early on were you aware of that very you know, those ideas were

out really well, you know, season one and two. You need these ideas, especially season one and then and be like, Okay, that's an idea for season eight, that's an idea for you know that in our last season, you know, and like breaking the fourth while in the documentary crew um and including that, that was an idea that was early that we just put We knew that was going to

be at the end put away. Yeah right, we knew it blew up the show, right, And was there ever any talk of not doing that but being like e er or something where it would just keep going forever. Was there ever any real talk of that just keep show going forever? Yeah? Totally. Where did you fall on that? I feel it was not possible to make this transition idea,

have to slowly bring people on and shift focus. Everyone would have to really be on the same page for to want that to happen, and not everybody wanted that to happen, and Greg really wanted to finish the story.

And you can't finish the story with everybody gone, right, I mean, you would not have had a satisfying ending if after twenty if the show is still on now and after another five ten years, we go, okay, well, now we're going to break the fourth wall, the the kind of Survivor element where we're just if we are just in season eighteen right now or whatever it would be, this show wouldn't be as regarded as well as it is, and Survivor would probably be regarded higher than it is

if it had ended after ten, right. Was there any noticeable change in Greg coming back full time for that

last season and your roles changing again? Well, I spent that year mostly trying to get the spin off going, writing that, casting that going, focusing on that toone, so I really wasn't a daily part of the writer's room season nine, season nine, Yeah, yeah, there was a part of me that was like that I had kind of finished in a way, but you were still writing, right, We're still acting in every episode and no, uh, you know, aside from writing the Farm, that's the only episode I

wrote that year writing and directing the Farm, I think was the only time I directed that year too. How disappointed were you that that that did not go forward? Very disappointed And I think it would have been a really big hit. Why did it not? Again, this is the shift over to the the new management comcasts. I mean, I don't see how someone could not give the farm a chance, right, to not give the Dwight spin off like a chance, like maybe what if it does find itself?

You know? Interesting? So for you, it was really about Comcast comes in and buys and doesn't have the seven year history with the show is essentially coming in now as Steve is gone and the ratings are going down and you're finding yourself creatively, and so there hasn't been an investment or a buy in exactly. Yeah, so really we needed it Kevin Riley. Yeah, we needed a Kevin Riley to be there at the time, to be at Comcast,

someone that saw what could happen. Yeah. Um, why do you think that the show has become now the most watch show in television five six years after we've shot anything? Is that true? The most Yeah? Fifty two point something billion minutes watched. That's a hundred thousand people watching it from the moment they're born until they die, living an average life. Wow. Are they doing that to some people? I think they should. It's mean, I mean, they wouldn't

have a diverse life, but potentially a happy life. Um. Do you feel that the show in your interactions with people that it's it's bigger today than it was definitely, definitely yeah, and going younger. Yeah, why do you think that is? Why is it connecting with people maybe even more so now today? In a way it was built for streaming. I don't know, there's the it's a very hard you know, there's a phenomenon out there. It's very

hard to explain. But streaming one you kind of pay attention, and a lot of shows you're not given any permission to pay attention because they're so forced down your throat um. Streaming is lightly serialized, like the best of streaming is lightly serialized. And we were, you know, with no knowledge of what streaming was. That that was just how we thought the show would be best. We told stories over

years and we we really like the mini arcs. I don't know, as a viewer, if I'm watching something streaming and it's it's too I have to wait too long for a conclusion, I get really angry and I'm out. We found these six arcs and thirteen arcs. You know that we did a lot of three six you know, we had depending on what it was. But like Michael Scott Paper Company, you know where he takes a journey

over six episode, which is perfect for streaming. It's very satisfying to watch six episodes in the beginning something to the end of it, and then you know, by the end of it, we're back to We're back to where we were, even though we're playing a giant dark with Michael Scott, you know that takes seven years to go through about him becoming kind of a whole person. So I think I think we're built for this platform. We're

built for today really well. So in the last line of the show, Pam says this line about there's beauty and ordinary things. It being Greg's episode, who wrote it, I have to assume that that's what he thought the show was about, that there is beauty in ordinary things. What did you think it was about? But yeah, I guess that I thought there was I was probably a little more focused on there's there's comedy and ordinary things.

I mean, and and I know he felt both, but um, you know, the the commody that comes from very small, ordinary conflicts is my favorite stuff. And uh, you know, when we hit that, I think we were at our past. You know, right, what are you most proud of? I mean, you led almost half of the run. I'm most proud of what we were as an aggregate. You know, it wasn't a single moment that I'm more proud of than others, although I'm very proud of a talking head in which

you did not know the alphabet LEMN. No. Yeah, yeah, that's what I mean. That's what I mean. That little glint, that little glinty in your eye. I go, here is something I haven't I haven't ever revealed this before ever, but I remember you saying to me. I mean, it was just one of those moments about like we were getting towards the end. We're up in your office and you said to me, we need you because Steve is leaving. That only leaves us, Dwight. We need someone to do

the really really dumb things. Sorry, we need somebody to do the really really dumb things now that Michael was gone, as Dwight is there, we need someone to do the things that are bigger and or dumber than Dwight. No, okay, thanks boss, Yeah, yeah, um, but you This is sort of a side note, but I'm most thankful for all of the relationships that I made, and I'm thankful to you that you trusted me and gave me an opportunity to direct. It was a no brainer for me. Really,

you do an awesome job because I'm smarter than everybody else. Yeah, yeah, I play dumb but actually smart. No. You uh, you're a highly you're highly trained actor, right, You're very skilled and trained, and you knew a lot about acting, and we were an actor's show, right, So I thought that was a no brainer. You know, I knew you would do an amazing job. Well, thank you. I look forward to the phone call to come director your next show. Um, dude, I appreciate you so much coming in. It's so fun

to talk about this. I was with Steve yesterday and somehow we just started talking about Michael Scott for so long on the office days, it's fun to do. I didn't want it for a long time. It's like, come on, put this shot of bed um. But it feels good now go back and talk about it. Yeah. Well, I think that you and I hope this doesn't sound weird.

I feel like you're the unsung hero of the show that you don't get the credit that you deserve for your vision and innovation that happened during the time that you were there. So I want you to know that I appreciate you. Yeah, no one said that. I do think you're an idiot. Well yeah, it takes away some of the good feelings. Okay, um, but thank you for coming in, Thanks for having me here. Oh good, there you have it. That is Paul Lieberstein. Thank you Paul

for sitting down with me. You know how much I love you. And I don't know is it too late to start a petition to revamp the farm. I'll ask Rain if he's free. Uh. In any case, thank you all for listening. I absolutely love sharing these interviews with you, so I hope you're loving them. To have a great week, everybody. The office. Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Lang Lee. Our

senior producer is Tessa Kramer. Our producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor is Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth Olansky. Hello, Hello, Hi, Oh my god. I want to come through the screen and hug you. Hey, everybody, Jessica's are here, also known as Vanessa Abrams on Gossip Girl. I am so excited

to share my new podcast with you guys. It's called XO XO and it's a walk down memory lane all about Gossip Girl. I'll chat with some of the cast crew fans of the show, and I'm just so pumped for you guys to go on this journey with me. All Right, I made Westwick, I played Chuck Bass. Is this Michelle Tractonburg I'll never tell. Hey, I'm Taylor Mompson and I played Jenny Humphrey. Hi, I'm sbashion Stan and

I played Carter Ason. That was one of the reasons I liked the character Jenny so much, is that she was very relatable. The whole thing was such a choice for me to do, and I was just so thankful that people responded the way they did to what we were doing. This really was just like wonderful. I like have like warm feelings inside. I'm giving you air hugs. Listen to XO XO on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Mama, what

does the chicken say? Uh? Draft diraffe really giraffe, Giraffe, You're not gonna get it all right. Just make sure you know the big stuff, like making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right seat for their agent's eyes. Get it Right visits n h S a dot gov slash the Right Seat brought to you by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration in the AD Council. I'm Jake Calburn, host of deep Cover. Our new season is about a

lawyer who helped the mob run Chicago. He bribed judges and even helped a hit man walk free, until one day when he started talking with the FBI and promised that he could take the mob down. I've spent the past year trying to figure out why he flipped and what he was really after. Listen to deep Cover on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, wherever you get your podcasts.