Paul Feig

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the truth of one team treatment facility each season. First up, Provo Canyon School. This one is personal. Listen to Trapped in Treatment on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi. I'm Paul fig I directed about nineteen episodes of the Office. I was a co exact producer for one season, season five, and uh, it was probably my favorite job I've ever done working on the show. Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's

episode of The Office Deep Dive. Probably my favorite job I've ever done. I am your host, Brian baum Gartner, my guest today. Is the absolutely the only way to describe him, A bundle of joy. Paul Feig. Now, Paul was a director and a producer on the Office, That's true,

but those titles don't quite do him justice. Paul was a core member of the team starting in season two, so much so that when Greg started working more and more on Parks and wreck in season five, Paul became our number one go to in house person on set for any questions or issues that came up. Paul was like the Consigliari of the office, you could say, and he had a huge influence on the show, as all

good consigliaries do. But it wasn't just our show. Paul also created freaks and Geeks and has made tons of fantastic comedy movies Bridesmaids, Spy, the New Ghostbusters, so many more. And here's the thing. Paul once said that our casting director, Alison Jones changed the face of comedy, which is true, but Allison says that Paul, along with Judd Apatow, changed the genre of comedy itself. Plus, Paul is hilarious. Just

check out his Instagram you'll know what I mean. He's a super nice guy and to top it off, he is the most dapper man in Hollywood. Definitely the only person who showed up for our conversation in a three piece suit. So on that note, here he is Paul Feig. Bubble and Squeak, I love it Bubble and Squeak on Bubble and Squeaker cookie every month left over from the NAT before Oh Agnes how are you? I'm good? Are you you look amazing? It's always yeah, you haven't great

to see you. Oh my god, this is so great. Yes, how fun? It has been amazingly fun. Yeah, I mean it's thank you so much. Oh no, this worked. Sitting down? Um what are you about to do? You're working on something. Was going to shoot a pilot in North Carolina, so I can ready for that, and then we're gonna do a movie after that. So you are you nice and busy? Which is nice? Yeah? What what're We're in? North Carolina? Is a pilot's Wilmington's. I was there. I mean it's

been now, Oh my gosh. Maybe it's been a little bit of time. This show, which you probably never heard of. It was one of those weird thing was a drama that I was a fan of and they called and I was like, yeah, it was um good behavior. Yeah, oh that's a cool show. Oh my gosh. It was so much fun. And Wilmington's was great. Yeah, that's my first time. When I was an actor. Back in ninety four, I shot a movie there, Heavyweights. We that, but it was that was more Asheville Henderson Bills. It was more

Blue Ridge mountains, but I loved North Carolina. It was one of those cases. We have this every time I shoot anywhere. It's what we call I want to live there. Iteas you started looking for houses, I had to live here. Yeah, let's just start looking. Huh. I wonder what this model money will get me here on the ocean, And I

always solve it by going, okay, Now flash forward. It's the final day of production and the trucks are pulling out of town and you're they're waving like all right here I am, And I was like, all right, what have I done? Lovely towns? But what the hell are we show biz people gonna do? I know? Um, okay,

So what we're talking about is The Office. And now, six years after we've stopped film management six years, it's, by basically any measure, the most watch show on television, totally insane, and people come up to me all the time about it. And kids, Well, that was the thing that always blew my mind. I wrote a couple of y A books, um and so did these like middle school tours, and so when I would be promoting the book, it was kind of like, the kids are like whatever.

So I just learned to pand or completely like I work on the Office and they would go crazy. All they wanted to do was talk about the Office and they loved it. So, yeah, it's got such of relevance. How did you get involved originally in the show. Did you watch the British version of the show. Yeah? I watched the British version of the show, and actually at the time, the agency I was at came to me and a million other people who had you know, had shows, and said you want to do this? And I was

immediately like, no, why would I possibly want to do that? Like, I can't take that on. You can only fail like a right, totally. It's just like it's so iconic, you're like that, you can't you can't do it, just get

away from it. So um. So then yeah, a few years later I had heard that they were, you know, doing it, And actually the irony was I was shooting a pilot with Rodney Rothman called Early Bird back then, and so when we were shooting this scene, a writer's room scene, it was at the same studio where Greg Daniels was was editing the pilot and remember him going like, hey, guys, come in, come in, I'm gonna get your opinion on something.

We're trying to figure out what the theme music is going to be, and so he played a couple of different songs and the piano one came up and we were like, yeah, that, I think that's the one that's really good. So I kind of like, wow, I was there at the beginning for the piano thing. Oh that's amazing. And then Wild and then and then what happened was when it came on, you know, you know, the whole thing about how it had to be the exact script

from the British version. Remember watching it and just kind of going like, oh, I was hoping it would be something else. I was such a big Corral fan, and so I kind of had this thing in my head, Oh, I guess maybe it's not gonna you know, go, even though it was great in it. And then and I didn't watch the rest of the six. And then my agent called me up next year and said, oh, you know that shows coming back and it's you know, it's

gonna be this hot show. And I was like, well, I don't know, you know, but I like everybody involved so much. So then I went and watched the other five and went like holy smoke. This is so funny. When I got a diversity day, I was like, this is one of the funniest things I've ever seen. So then I came on board for for the first full season and um, yeah, but I was at that first table read where they read the Dundees and all that,

and then mine was Office Olympics was my first one. Yeah, Office Olympics pretty early and in season two I think that's the fourth, third or fourth episode, I think. Yeah. So Greg told me something interesting that he on the pilot decided that if they stayed faithful to the British script, the network couldn't give any notes. Oh I buy that because they were like, well they worked over there, like how could you? And so what what he viewed his job on on the pilot was to create the world.

It was really brilliant what he did. I mean the fact that you know, it was partly some of you guys got cast. Other people were writers. He said why don't you be on the show, And it created that great world for the for the docuse style, you know, the big thing that you know, we kind of all

figured out going into season two. You know, the first six were trying to be very much like the British Office in the sense that Steve Carell's character was really unlikable, and it was when the forty year old virgin came out on that break that everybody goes like, wait, what's up, and it's like, oh no, he's lovable. He can be a lovable loser, you know, and kind of be insufferable, but he has to have victories and so you know

that was getting seated in. But it was really that moment I think we all felt in Office of Olympics when when Steve made the decision to start crying, you know, or yet Terry when the Metal ceremony. I remember, we're all kind of like, that's it. Oh my god, and it was just um and it felt like it just you could feel that shift. Well, speaking of that, that moment and the Halloween moment, both directed by you, people have talked about the softening of him and the showing

of his humanity. Yeah. Well remember in the in the stage directions for the Metal Ceremony, it was like everybody's kind of laughing at him, So it was gonna it was supposed to be this big burn on him. But I mean it's all Steve. I mean Steve made this decision to get emotional, and I remember, we're just we're all standing there like, oh my god. So I'm just mbening up, going like, go go further with it, Go

further with it. Um. It's this thing that I've just discovered over the years because I love British comedy so much, and Britt's really love unlikable lead characters because then they just get to see them torn apart and there's some sort of a come upance with that, much like the British press who take people down. But American audio just can't get behind it. It makes them very frustrated. They want American audiences just want to invest in the lead character.

It's it's our the beauty of how lovely, what a teenage country we are. We still have optimism and all that, and so I think it's great, but it's it's just this lesson I've learned over and over again, but I never learned it as fully as I did from my

experience on The Office. Yeah, it's interesting because if you look at sort of the iconic dramas that were happening around the time that The Office was going, they're unlikable characters that found humanity, like if you think of Tony Soprano or m Walter White or you know, you have these bad bad men that find a humanity that people somehow root for. It. Did that was that a shift or was it sort of okay in terms of drama

but not comedy. I think it was. I think it's the difference between more niche cable stuff and mainstream network stuff. You know, because this is back when you know, well, you guys started the four networks ruled the roost, which is just not that way anymore. And so I think, you know, to have that broad appeal, you have to have this formula, right. Part of what we've talked about is that kind of this revolution in terms of changing the face of network television really started with you and

Freaksing Geeks. Um, what I know, I'll take full credit. I don't know if it's thank you, Brian, you know, I think so. I mean, you know, we talked to Alison Jones, and Alison talked about like her affinity for Misfits and you know, she cast Golden Girls and Family Ties and all of these traditional network shows, and then she talked about Freaks and Geeks being the first cool show that she did, and that she had an affinity you know for people who were sort of different you

do as well. Yeah, well, I mean, you know, Freaks and Gigs was really my reaction to all the years of stuff I'd watched about cool kids and cool people in high schools, about all the you know, it's like soap operas. I was just like, I can't take this anymore, just it has no relevance to my past. What's and it makes me feel like a weirdo, Like wh what group was I in? So I really just kind of wrote it as you know, as a reaction to that.

Um No, I mean, you know, there was things like Ally McBeal and stuff that we're kind of playing in that world. There was also the movie Welcome to the Dollhouse that came out and was was really influential for a lot of people, and and what it influenced at the networks was they were all kind of like, we

need to get a show like that. So I had kind of on the side written this spec pilot and it just happened to kind of match into that, and so, um we we chopped it around and NBC just jumped on it in a great way, and we had one of these amazing meetings where you come into go like we have no notes, just go shooting, and it's like, you know, going like you're you know, I was all set for a fight of like you gotta let us

cast you know, nerdy kids. I don't want to cast like models, and then you know, and they were like, no, we agree. So yeah, so it was really great and um yeah, I mean, you know, the thing we that wasn't a lot of is just the idea of like a bittersweet comedy that's like not a comedy and not a drama that's sort of both. It's like real life. Yeah,

but that's why we got canceled. We you know, we only aired twelve episodes and the people at the network were in love with the show, but the heads of the network just couldn't figure it out because it just didn't it didn't do what a normal TV show does.

It wasn't it wasn't wish fulfillment. You know. I remember them always going like why can't he why can't he get with the cheerleaders, Like when we don't have a show because of the cheerleader, wouldn't be real life, None of ours that we're writers, you want to bring a bunch of cool guys in. Yeah, and then it just kind of yeah, we just you know, did it as long as we could not. You know, I always credit NBC for letting us do what we did right well.

And I think it's why everybody who worked on the Office has a huge soft spot for Kevin Riley because he stuck his neck out. You know, he wasn't there when Freaks and Geeks was there, but by the time Office came around and he fought for it. Yeah, I mean, yeah, he was the champion the toll because I know that thing was. I mean, any other person would have canceled that show after the first six just because of the ratings.

Because of the ratings. You know, we were in the basement of the ratings every week ironically with seven million viewers per week, which now we would be with the biggest show into you totally um. Greg talked about that he was sure that the show would fail, and he talked about that he felt like his contribution would that it would be all worth it if somehow, in the smallest of way, he could nudge the ship of comedy in just a different direction. Coming out of a friend's

Will and Greg. You know, just that's something that just he found funnier. He was like, it would have been worth it, Like if I had just done that well, I mean, you know, I always say in comedy there are these moments that everything jumps ahead, and he definitely did that. But you know, one of the many things that was in the way of the office taking off in the beginning was that style was that docu style with the zooming camera. Now we're so used to it

and nobody talks about it. But I don't know, you've probably heard this too. You know, I can't watch it. It It makes me sick. I want to throw up. It's things go moving around. But I always credit YouTube kind of created a world in which we could do this because you know, comedy before that was very over lit, very you know, three camera looking, or it was a movie just very you know, here's the shots to get the shots, and it was very joke oriented to everything

was set up, jokes out of joke. Everbody's really snappy and all this, And because of YouTube, people started finding so much humor in captured moments and things just happening on the fly and that's real, and that comedy became completely behavioral and and I felt over the last ten years people have no patience for jokes at all. If

it sounds like a joke, they're still jokes. But they can't be like, you know, snappy, snappy, clever dialogue it has, you know, on Freaks Engaged, we our biggest laughs would be you know, Martin Stars going, you know that get but they see them the script and back in the old days like you need a joke here, you need

a punchlines and no, no, that's the joke. And you know, one of my best friends is is Matt Reeves who did clover Field, you know, and people were like, oh, oh my god, I'm throwing up and all this stuff. You know, now it looks We see it all the time, so it looks great and you don't have a problem with that. Yeah, it's a hard time for hiring, so you need a hiring partner built for hard times. That's Indeed.

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We controlled the courts, we controlled absolutely everything. He bribed judges and even helped a hit man walk free until one day when he started talking with the FBI and promised that he could take the mob down. I've spent the past year trying to figure out why he flipped and what he was really after. From my perspective, Bob was too good to be true. There's got to be something wrong with this. I wouldn't trust that guy. He looks like a little scum, big layer, still bidging. He

looked like what he was or at. I can say with all certainty I think he's a hero because he didn't have to do what he did, and he did it anyway. The moment I put the wire around the first time, my life was over. If it ever got out, they would kill me in a heartbeat. Listen to deep Cover on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hello, Hello, Hi, Oh my god. I want to come through the screen and hug you. Hey, everybody.

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amazing time. Listen to XO XO on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Greg and Ken kapas Matt and Randall. You know. One of the things that they talked about was the idea that everything is harder makes it better. Well, I mean it was absolutely brilliant that he decided to get a

real documentary crew to shoot this. I mean, it's honestly, I'm doing a pilot right now that I'm just completely copying what he did because somebody like Randall and Matt, who were so brilliant, they are writers, they are actors, they are producers in the way that they do this because they have the ability coming from that world, to

see the scene like they've never seen it before. Every time they shoot it, And as a director, it's my absolute favorite way to work because it's all about performance and it's also all about kind of we're the audience, the cameras, the audience going wait what he said that and like and kind of zooming in and their ability to know when to zoom in on somebody is just

you know, people go, oh, do you direct? That's like no, I don't like occasionally going oh wait, hold off or like maybe pull wider here, but in general, just like you guys, do what you're gonna do, and then we'll kind to see if we want to change it. But cent of the time you're just like now, they right,

so smart. And you know I've said before this and through this process that every shot there was always a discussion about where the camera was, not in terms of getting the shot, but in terms of intention, behavior character. Is the camera in the same room, Are the characters aware that it's in the room. How does that change

their behavior knowing that it's there? Yeah? Total. I mean That's why I've always had a hard time watching reality TV real reality quote unquote, because I just go everyone's on camera, they know they're on cameras, So I'm not watching normal behavior. I'm watching them playing to the cameras, and so the fact that they harness that it makes the comedy so much better because you know, and we always you know, they scripted it out a lot of the time, but it was always like, when's the spy shot?

When do we want to catch people where they have no idea they're on camera. We're seeing the real person versus people that are very aware of the camera. And

it's such a part of the writing. It's such a part of the storytelling that, you know, the fact that they used that and and really played into it is great, even down to things like, you know, the the idea that on the Talking Heads, anybody who had kind of a bright future got to be against the window that looked out to the streets, and everybody who was stuck in the place got you know, the office behind them. Yes, John Krasinski or sorry, Jim being towards the women, paym

exactly being toward the window. You know. I remember coming in the first time. You know, the first thing I ever did when I was directing was the Talking Heads. You just started the day with the Talking Heads, and you know, I came in and got all this whole thing, like really interview people, and I did, and you guys were so nice you put up with that. I asked all these questions before I get to the scripted thing. But it was just it was fun. I mean, for me,

it was just this. You know, I played with improv on camera before, but not to this extent, you know, because I worked on the Arrested development, which was so much fun. Those scripts are so dense that even though we would do let improv, it just wouldn't get used because, you know, because of the way they wanted to cut the show. So you know the fact that Greg I can never say enough stuff about Greg Daniels. He's just so brilliant and I learned more from him and I

think anybody in the business. You know, the fact that he had the confidence to let us throw out storylines because we would stumble upon an improv you know, in Halloween is is the classic one with that thing which is Dwight, you know, looking like the you know, the Emperor, and we were just like, this is so funny, and

that he went for it, you know, that's so great. Yeah, that's a great example, Yeah, of just a story that is funny and let's let it play out as long as it's a moment, you know, like I recognize that he oh god, he looks like he's from Star Wars, and then then you will do it, Michael or whatever you're saying. Yeah, no, totally. Um, I can't remember if we were if we did this. By the time you were there, it started to peter out because the shoots

got more complicated. But one of the things that Kappas did and we did, I know, through the first season, was the thirty minutes of busy work. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, so coming in and ultimately he wanted and you know, Greg wanted it to feel like we had been there, that we had been sitting there. So even us being there for thirty minutes, it's like your chair feels different than if you just sit down, which I just I

think is so interesting. Yeah, it's fascinating. I Mean, one of the things I love about Ken is like he doesn't even say action. He just goes go ahead, And which is great because there is that thing and I when I do my movies and all that I've I've purged it out of what I do, even I still call action, but there is something about it leads up to this like okay, but yeah and go and it's

it's a big event. That's why I always just go like go again, go again, go again to get people out of that thing of like here it comes, they've just redone, your makeup, the cavers, rolling and go and so you know, the thing on the office was always that the cameras never turned off until we finished a scene,

so we just rolling, just kept going, moving around. Also, the thing that that they were doing, and I think Ken started this too, is just saying, like all day, everybody has to be here all day just because we're in the office. Who don't want know who we're going to see in the background because the camera is gonna be moving around, you know. And that carried on for a couple of seasons and people well started getting more successful.

I mean, I mean, but to a certain degree. It was there throughout I mean, you know, even later and there were scenes that were taking place at the reception area and Steve Carroll was sitting in you know, I mean, as Michael Scott was sitting in his office there in the background. No, I mean, it definitely happened. But but who drew the short straw on that whole series? It was poor. He was the only one we saw through

the window. He was the only person that we saw when we do the talking heads that looked into the office. So he had Peelis somehow escaped. Remember asking for some Phillis to come in a couple of times, I might see your hand right. Just one other questions sort of on this top is you know, basically, how do you feel like the fact that there were ordinary looking people um that that and the fact that we were all essentially unknown, how did that contribute to you think to

creating that world? Well, I made it much more relatable. It's funny because I always say, like, you know, we always try to go you know, like let's just cast really normal people. The minutesome he gets on camera, they do become appealing. It's just a natural thing that happens. So again it goes back to this docu style. I think that is just the key to everything because it

takes all the grandiosity out of the filmmaking process. You know, when you get your close up and you're in a movie or TV show and you get a close up, we're tracking around you. It just becomes an event. It just eventizes little moments in life and the fact that if everybody's sitting there and we're kind of at this sort of high angle because all the cameraman stand up generally unless randalls on his pooty scoot do you know

what we called it, sitting on this little thing with wheels. Um, we're seeing it the way if we would just walk through the office, that's how we we'd be watching it. And that's why I think with the zooming in on people, it's just like you as an audience, go oh, I would focus on that person, and somehow in my brain I would actually zoom in on them, because your eye kind of does weird things that you don't realize as you're taking in details. And I think that's all contributed

to making it feel just normal. In what then you can do when you have this thing of everything feels very real and everybody's under playing because also nobody on the show is playing big. But if something big does happen, it is in a real world context, so you can get away with it. So you know, there's some pretty absurd stuff that happened on the office, but you just

go like, oh, that's funny. You don't go if it had been shot in a standard movie way with like you zoom in and a wide lens you did this, and that you'd go like, no, that's dumb, you know, or that's too much. But in this real life context, that makes it all feel real and so um yeah, you know, but you guys were all very very appealing

in our own specific way. Yes, exactly. You know. I've always said this about especially it's more about like three camera kind of stuff, but it really applies to the best TV shows, the most popular comedies ever, which is it's generally in one place. That's why cheers work so well. You go, oh, I'm gonna go visit my friends in this place that I feel very comfortable. And so that's

what the office had. And it's funny as the seasons went on, they were always trying to get out of the office more and I was always kind of like, let's not go out too much because I love being in this place. Now it's my happy place. So that you know, that's what you had going for you. But then with this new style, which the funny thing was at that time sitcoms were trying to break out of their three camera thing, and so if you watch there was occasionally you'd watch a sitcom and they kind of

put some shot in or they do something. Let me tracking down the hall and you're like, wait, what's happening. You know this is not normal and it would distance you from it. But you guys have the ability to just have this freedom with the cameras. Right the art world it is essentially a money laundering business. The best fakes are still hanging off people's walls. You know, they don't even know or suspect that they're fakes. I'm Alec Baldwin and this is a podcast about deception, greed and

forgery in the art world. You knew that the painting was fake. Um, listen to Art Fraud on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, this is Paris Hilton. Last year I revealed the story of my abuse at Provo Canyon School. Since then, thousands of survivors have come forward. Now I'm on a mission to expose the truth of the entire industry, and this weekly investigative podcast me and my host Rebecca Mellinger and

Caroline Cole. We'll examine one infamous team treatment facility each season. First up, Provo Canyon School. This one is personal. When you first get there, you have to experience girls screaming, lock dot peeing themselves in the hallway sleeping, and you're like, where am I? Holy hack, this is not what I expected. Listen to Trapped and Treatment on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts, And we're live here outside the Perez family home, just waiting for

the and there they go, almost on time. This morning. Mom is coming out the front door, strong with a double arm kid carry. Looks like Dad has the bags. Daughter is bringing up the rear. Oh but the diaper bag wasn't closed. Diapers and toys are everywhere. Oh but mom has just nailed the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler. And now the eldest daughter, who looks to be about nine or ten, has secured herself in the booster seat. Dad zips the bag clothes and they're off.

But looks like Mom doesn't realize her coffee cup is still on the roof of the car and there it goes. Ah, that's a shame that mug was a fan favorite. Don't sweat the small stuff, just nailed the big stuff, like making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right seat for their agent's eyes. Learn more n h t s A dot gov slash the right Seat visits n h s A dot gov slash the Right Seat brought to you by NITZA and the ad Council. Backing up slightly,

you mentioned Diversity Day. Um, you know, I think that we've talked a lot about I don't know what you want to call him, but issue episodes. That sounds so

like very special episode. That wasn't the intention, but you know, talking about really from our second episode and Diversity Day beginning to talk about difficult social issues in a way that some would say hadn't been done on television since All in the Family, in terms of looking at race, but looking at it in a different way with a protagonist who was the one kind of stirring the pot um. A lot of people have said it, and Steve himself said he wasn't a bad guy. It was it was

just he wasn't woken off. Yeah, he's not savvy enough and he The great thing about Steve's character, you know, I also think Archie Bunker is like one of the greatest characters, possibly the greatest character I've ever been in comedy, but they're people who are just convinced they're right. Also, when they say something terrible, it's like, what what did I say? What did I say that's so terrible? It's that weird innocence of thinking get away with it that

that really makes the difference. You know, there's no malice in that person. But you talked about unlikable leading man um, you know, being a very British thing. But it's funny like when you look at that television history and you bring up Archie Bunker again, another sort of unlikable leading man. Yeah, very much so. I mean, you know, that's one of the most challenging characters to be on TV. I think, you know, people try to replicate that so many times,

and it just that was so specific to the time. Ironically, I almost feel like, I think almost were even more divided now. I don't even think you think you could pull it off because everbody's so self defensive. But back then there was ability to even though everybody, you know, passions were high. You needed that that steam relief for whatever,

to to get these ideas out there. And also, you know, surrounding that shows just brilliant because it's the wife who's just a saint, and then the overbearing son in law who's too far the other way. You know, in the the daughter is kind of caught in the middle. So if you kind of present a fair and balanced mixture of opinions, then you can have fun with it. And then if you again take the malice out of it, unless you need a villain, then everybody's just kind of misguided.

Then it becomes about the appealing nous of the people playing those roles. And I don't mean looks or anything. I just mean, do you inherently like them? And you you inherently like Steve because he is just he's so funny and also just you know, he thinks he's doing the doing the right thing, and you can't. It's hard for Americans at least to get mad at that. Where do you think that he fits in, Michael Scott sort

of in the history of comedy leading man. I mean, honestly, it's a real close race between Carol O'Connor and Steve Carrell. For me, I've I've lamented this before, and whenever I say it, sometimes it turned to the press remembers that this didn't happen, that Steve Carell never won an Emmy, never want and it makes me mental. And you know, Alc Balden, I love him. He's the funniest guy in the world. He's he's great. But you know that was

a showy part and Steve's part. I mean people would say it to me and like, well, but he just shows up and he just it's crazy, and it's like, are you fucking kidding me? You know, first of all, if you know Steve, he's not crazy at all. He's one of the most even timbered, smart guys I've ever met in my life. But for comedy be good. It's gotta look easy. If it looks sweaty and it looks like people are trying too hard, it's terrible. But then when you do so great that you make it so real,

people like, well you're not doing anything. So at some point you just go awards mean nothing and screw it, let's just throw it out. But the fact that there's a comedy Leading Man category and he can never win it is it's crazy. And I really think Academy do like the President's Award or whatever, where you give somebody who's been not taken care of, give him that Emmy. And should be like five ft high. Yeah. Yeah, Um.

When I was talking to Rain, I said to him, the comedy duo of the two of them together, you reference the Halloween episode two. They're just so funny. They're just so funny, and there's just it's these two archetypal characters in the way that they fit together was just brilliant. Yeah, and there's not I mean, there's not really a parallel to them, because it's not Laurel and Hardy, you know, and it's not avonic Ostello because of that exactly what

you're saying. It's this weird they need each other, but Michael doesn't want Dwight acceptance, and it's it's really I mean, but you know, such credit to Rain. I mean, what an amazing character he pulled in to be a character that could have been so over the top arch but there is a humanity in him because he's just that guy that we all know who's just like striving and wants it and wants it so much and tries to kind of throw everybody else out of the way, but

he's still sensitive. And yeah, it's really I mean, you know, in Rain, it's the greatest guy too well, and part of why the show is so popular. I think that Dwight Shrewd this character full of contradictions that don't make any like heavy metal, dungeons and drag it like all of these weird things, but they're so specific that that is actually what makes it universal that people like like see that it's a real character, a real person. Yeah,

I mean, because characters are all specifics. You know, when you get in trouble, when you're writing something, is you just kind of have this general kind of feeling of what your character does, and you know, it's really going through that laos agree list of like specifics. What is their religion, what do they believe in? What are they are they afraid? You know, what's their favorite food? Those things make up who we are if you think about it.

I mean, you know that that's It's like how many times you meet somebody really like them, then you'll find out one thing and you're like, wait, what you know, either suddenly you don't like them because of it, or

you feel really bad for them, or you know. So it is that that attention to detail, and that's the great thing about the television series is that you have week after week to keep establishing these things and to surprise people with you know, oh, I thought I knew exactly who that person was, and you go like, oh you think, you know, check this out. And that's what's

brilliant about it. I've gone to movies because I get more of a stomach gig thinking about having to do stuff week after week, because I'm a little more of a singular task person. So that's why I when a show is consistently great week after week, year after year, it's like a magic trick or something. And you know, and and just you know, hats off to those those writers. I remember just standing watching them from the other side of the room, going like that is the most brilliant

group of writers. Like you'd be hard pressed to put together a gang like that again, you know, and and everything they came up with was brilliant. And I would just sit in that writer's room and just go wow,

you know, it's marvel. You know, it's the case. I try to pitch a joke and they kind to look at me like okay, you know, like suddenly Dad in the room like pitching some shitty, old hackey joke and they're like, okay, well I heard um as it's been explained to me, like in a writer's room, you really have the people who start and they're really good at story,

and then they're the senior there. Then you hire in the joke people, and then eventually the story people leave, and then you just have the joke people kind of running the ship, but they're not as good as story. But I mean when you think of a Gen Silata and Paulibristine and Mike Schuer and Mind and Gene and Mendy and b J and yeah, no, I mean that that's really that's smart. I never thought about it that way,

but it's completely true. People didn't have a specific thing they did that they were known for, and I think that is really smart because then everybody brought a depth of story and funny to everything they were pitching, you know. And again sitting around that table and hearing the pitches, you know, when they were going through punching up a script or whatever. That's why when I would pitch like a joke, it just like hit like a lead balloon. I'm just pitching like a funny word or a funny

word play. It's like God, but I learned so much on that, Like, you know, came kind of came out of that whole experience in my years. They're you're going be like, oh, you know, behavioral comedy, this is how it works. It was weird. That's we used to do on freaks and gigs. But I would get in this setting of a half hour thing go like, oh, you gotta be more jokey and and so you know they a brilliant group. Yeah, give us silver attention. We need

everything you've got fast Waiting on Reparations. We'd beat the podcast. Tune in every Thursday politics and wordplay. We fight for the people because they got us in the worst way, from the Hill Cooper, the Bomb Bay Tot, from the left enclave to what the neo kanse every Thursday heavy conversation and to break us off with some break because we wait in the repas. Listen to Waiting on repper Rations on I Heart Radio, app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever

you get your podcasts. I'm Colleen with Join me the host of Eating Wall Broke podcast while I eat a meal created by self made entrepreneurs, influencers, and celebrities over a meal they once ate when they were broke. Today I have the lovely AJ Crimson, the official Princess of comfin Asia kind and Asia. This is the professor. We're here on Eating Wall Broke, and today I'm gonna break down my meal that got me through a time when

I was broken. Listen to Eating Wall Broke on the I Heart Radio app, on Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Many people believe the greatest episode of the Office is Dinner Party, Uh, that you directed and you were not supposed to direct it. Somebody else is supposed to direct that. And then the writers strike happened. But I remember I had been given the script to Survivor Man, I think was the one, and I remember going like, oh, I like the script, Oh my god,

can I please have Dinner Party? And it's like, well, it's already been promised that somebody else. I was like, oh no, So I mean I've literally tried to figure out like how I could subvert it or whatever. And then the writers strike dropped into our laps in a horrible way, and that was what a terrible time that was.

But it just happened to work out that when it came back, it was available for me to do because I think he was busy and um it was one of those things you just read and go like, oh my god, this is the funniest thing I've ever read. But it's also what I love because it's so cringe e. This is just going to be like excruciating, but that's my favorite kind of comedy. But if you remember, I think it was probably when it aired, probably our most

hated episode. I mean, people did not like it because it made them so uncomfortable, and I remember being very surprised by that. But the feedback was coming out, you know, about the web site, and we were just getting really

bad feedback from it. So I'm so happy that now it sorted itself out and it really taught me something I didn't realize before that, which is the hardest part about just you know, when you have a movie out or anything, if you have any kind of track record, people know what you do, you've got a voice, or

they're used to stuff that you've done. That the biggest impediment to people enjoying something is the fact that it exists, and they have to get used to it existing, and so you know, they they're used to the feel of the office, which is fun and definitely has cringe e stuff in it. But so then when this thing comes up and you're like, we're just gonna dangle you in the wind and make you feel so uncomfortable that they're like, well,

I can't, how dare you do this to me? But then when they watch and then they've gotten that out of their head and now they know it exists and they go back and watch it again, then you go like, oh my god, this is the funniest thing I've ever seen. And that episode is so obviously driven by that cast, and um, how funny they are, and this is one I'm We're putting them in a setting outside of the office worked so great because it was a setting that

meant so much to one person. I mean, I think I still I don't think I ever laugh as hard as when we did the thing of Michael giving the tour of that living room with that little TV and then the then the shitty table, and it just it was that was just such a team effort between Steve as a performer, in between Randall and I and Matt figuring out like you think you're on a big TV and you pull out in this tiny thing and then how do we whip over to that shitty table? Oh?

My god, it was just so funny. But the thing I take away most from that episode was, and again for the genius of Steve Carrell, the big breakdown they have about having a baby. You know, it happens at the door, and it got very dramatic, and you know, it's really like I was like, oh my god, like Steve's really killing this and it's so dramatic. But then we all kind of went, Okay, it's gotta be funny. So I just remember going to Steve and going like, it's so good, what can you do to just kind

of make it fun? And that's when he did the whole snip snap, snip snap that thing. Do you know how many times vasectomy he has in that just like falling apart and then to be punching in on Krasinski, who just found the funniest moment to when he reveals the thing and just John it just takes that little look to the camera and Randall crashes in on him and it's the funniest. I think that's possibly the funniest

reaction shot in the whole history of the Office. Um oh, I'm just I'm so proud of that episode, and and it was it was just so fun to put together. It was also fun just to go in and figure out because I I was the first person in shooting Michael's condo when he bought it, so then going in and going like what did Jan do to this place?

And that was just a blast that they just let us completely, you know, go wild with kimonos on the wall and in the big the big andy warhol of Jan, which we never we never feature, it's just there and you go like, oh my god, yeah exactly. Um So in season five you came on as a co executive producer, right, and that was really about I mean it came out a function of well, one, how great you are and two that Greg was sort of stepping away and beginning to go work on Yeah, yeah, how why did you

decide to do that? I loved you guys so much And it was really that when the opportunity was presented to me, I remember thinking like, this is gonna be like the greatest schooling I've ever had, you know, And that was I said. One of the things was I want to be I'd like to be in the writer's room too, which they definitely wanted. Um. You know, it allowed me to go into that helpful I was, but I was in there. Um yeah, I just really wanted

to be more and more part of that show. I knew that how great it was, and obviously by that point it was a hit too. But you know, I couldn't get movies made, which was all I really wanted to do. But since I couldn't do that, I was like, I'm sitting with this amazing gift. I really want to

just be a part of it. And and you know what what had happen, Well, you know when Gregg brought me on too, just like a lot of people had in their contracts that they were going to get to direct an episode, and so he really wanted me there to help people. And I love that. You know. It was so I got to you know, be with Steve Carell when he directed his first episode, and I also got to be with you know, you know, some of our editors when they were doing it too, and it

was it was fun. And I also got to spend more and more time on the set, which I love. Like I will fully admit, the one thing that I'm really sad about is I was not allowed to direct the Super Bowl episode because I think the network wasn't thrilled with the Christmas episode, the Meredith's Um Christmas. Yeah, exactly.

I think that they had some issues. So I remember being kind of penalized because I was kind of like, well, of course I'm the in house director, I get to do the hour long one, and then you know, I didn't, and I remember just being very upset about and then it won them for the directors. But he did a great job, I mean, amazing job. Um you also directed um Niagara. Um, how how did you find out ultimately how that the wedding actually played out with the other

wedding in Niagara, etcetera. Well, I mean it was you know, first, I was so excited to get to do that one, and you know, the first time we ever think we ever went on location to do anything on the show, even though all the stuff we shot at you know that's supposed to be there was actually in uh the

smokehouse right right block away from my house. My actual um, you know, I mean one of the greatest honors for me was also getting to do the Proposal, which which was the most expensive shot we ever did in the

show's history. That was the very first episode of that that season, and we basically blew the entire budget for the rest of the season, and that shot, which costs I mean like a half a million dollars because it filled a CG and and all this anyway, Um, but so yes, when we got to the wedding, it was

very emotional. It was weird because we're gonna shoot on this, you know, the Lady of the Mist or made of the Mist thing, So that just brought so many logistical things that you're kind of like, it was hard to kind of invest in the emotion of it at first because I was so worried, like, are we gonna get soaked? Are we gonna you know, it's a camera gonna screw up. But it wasn't until we got in the editing room.

It was Claire, you know, Claire edited, and I was there with her when we decided we were going to intermix the dance number with the wedding, and we just burst into tears. I mean, I just got I still get I get so emotional watching that because it's so beautiful the way that it goes back and forth between the two, but it's also I'm jumping all around. But there was so many things in my head when we put that episode together, that dance number, which came out

of the blue. I mean, do you know the whole back story on you know what was originally Originally Greg had this insane idea that was hilarious that that Dwight was gonna d ride a horse over the Niagara Falls, and we're just like, I don't know, I don't know, we want to kill a horse on Pam and Tim's wedding, And he kind of fought for it and fought for it and then finally gave in. And so it was a very last minute thing. We had like like a day or two, and that wedding video was all over

the internet. It was kind of the perfect setup. And then when we were shooting in that church all day, I mean, it was so much to shoot that we were running out of time and I was like, literally had like a half hour left. I was like, I'm not, I don't have time to get this dance number. So I like, we're gonna have like maybe two takes at it. And the first time you guys did it, it was gold and it's just like that's dropped the mic. We did it one more time, but we didn't need it

because the second time. But it was really having all those elements to work with that it just gave us enough cards to really juffle a beautiful day. Yeah. By the way, that I don't know if you remember this. The people walking behind Jim and Pam onto the made of the mist my parents. Oh that's right, who were vacationing. And I do remember that. I do remember that they were Oh my god, we'll see. And I think you had met them on uh Company Picnic episode Come there,

and I think you had actually remember that. I didn't direct that one, but I was there supervising you and your parents. Um. One other question I have to ask, because you just brought it up. You directed the proposal episode. Um, sound or no sound? Oh, I was very I was a no sound guy very much. So yeah. Wait, no, no, no, no, I was a sound guy. Oh my god. No, that was That was the most contentious moment we all ever had. No. I was very nervous about it was so emotionally with

the sound. And I'm glad we did it because I think it made, you know, flash forward to Michael's last episode much more powerful if we had done that gag a couple of times. But we did their performance was so good, and hearing her and going like oh my god and all that. It just we're already dealing with so much, with all the across the you know, the highway and zooming in all these cars and all that that.

I just yeah, I remember fighting really really hard for that, and I think Greg was always kind of on the fence of whether we should have done it. Um talk about one word. Literally, Hey, guy who fixes the cars for the show, come on in. What do you think Someone told the story that he brought in a security guard and came in to watch it. He was like, he was like, who are these guys talking? Like he had no idea, Like I've never watched the show. It

was just like, yes, Um. You also directed Steve Carrell's last episode, Goodbye Michael. What do you remember about shooting that? Well, the biggest thing I remember, first of all, it was just so emotional, But that was what was interesting about it.

You probably remember this too. Every time we were going into a scene, especially towards the second half of the week, it was that feeling of like, this is our last scene with with Steve, this group actors, and we would do the first few takes and it would there would be a real sadness about it, and I had to constantly go like, remember, we love Steve, we don't necessarily like Michael, you know, and it would change the dynamic. But I completely got it because I was so emotional too.

I would kind of falling into that and then going like, wait, this can't be everybody's weeping because it's not going to track with the whole rest of the show. And that also made me very sad for Michael Scott, like they like him, but they don't love him, you know what I mean. But that's very real, you know. You know how many times you got people you work with other

than you go, oh, I'll miss them. You're not like, oh my god, I can't live without, you know, the boss, or I can't live with that that manager, you know. But that was really really hard because everybody wanted to break down. Um. I also remember, and I have a picture, I've got to find it somewhere. When we were the last day and we're shooting something, I looked over and Greg, you know that that the couch when you come in the front door, there's a couch next to the the reception.

I looked and Greg was just literally laying flat out, face down on the couch, just with this kind of his hands under his head. It just some everything up of just like we can't believe Steve is going, we can't imagine life without Steve Carrell on the set. Um, it was tough. Um. The weird thing for me was that we shot the very last thing, probably three days before the end of the episode, which was the thing at the airport with Jenna and Steve, and that got

me more than I kind of thought. I mean, the last day got me, but I was so on task doing that airport scene. That was when I was just like, you know, and so it takes off the mic and just you know, I'm actually getting choked up when I talked about it, just seeing them, yeah, her going off and you don't know what they say, and just her hugging him, and it was just it was really it

was really something. Um. But it really landed for me just what the show was and just you felt like you were kind of part of history in that moment. And I I loved everybody, but I remember saying like I'm now I'm not going to direct any more episodes because look, and I love all the episodes after Steve laugh. But to me, it's just like that was the group.

You know, I almost felt like I almost had to leave with Michael Scott in a weird not that anybody could care, but it was just it put us such a completion to everything for me that that was kind of like that was it? Weirdly, yeah, because you didn't come back and direct after No, and I didn't. It was not any reason like, oh, dare you. It just kind of it was just this really weird natural feeling of like, oh, there's something, it's over. We're all we're

all we're all going. I don't know, I don't know I quite know how to say it. It It just felt like there was closure for me when that happened. Yeah, that said, I wish I kind of I kind of wish I would have done some of them after because

I missed you guys so much. I'll tell you one interesting thing about about that episode, when she goes to see the King's speech, we Bridesmaids it was gonna come out, but it was coming out in a few months, and we almost put Bridesmaids up on the marquee, but we all decided, well, what if it bombs, so so we didn't do it really Yeah, yeah, that's so funny. So she almost snuck into see broad space. Um well, and obviously Bride'smaids was huge and brought Ellie to a whole

new level. And really then from changing the face of television comedy, you literally changed the gender of no of American movie comedy with that movie as well. I mean that was groundbreaking in its own way right now. I mean it was it was what I had always wanted to do. I I love, you know, female lead comedy, and you know, I would just for years, after Freaks and Geeks and before it even pitch ideas that were female centric, and it just you know, oh, you can't

do that, you know. Okay, I guess they know more than I do about in show biz and if ially go like, well wait, why can't you you know, But it was really you know, Judd doing Knocked Up and saying to Kristen, you're great, write your own script, and then they came up with that idea because I was at that table read back in two thousand seven, uh, when it was just you know, untitled wedding movie and uh, you know, and then three years later we actually got

to do it, right, well, the final um very quickly. What do you feel like the legacy of the show is gosh, you know, it's a show that you just want to watch over and over again. I mean there's a few shows like that in my life. Taxi was always that way. Um, all in the family is always that way. But the Office is always gonna be that because it's just comfort food, you know, and it's a very it's so funny, but it's so relaxing to sit with these people. The tone of the show is very relaxed.

I love the fact that we didn't have any score, no music on the show. You know, our sound mixes always, but like where do we put the phone ringing? Like we're just always placing phones ringing in the background and it just becomes this really low key, relaxing, happy place that you can go to. And every episode there's something several things in it you're like, oh my god, this

is my favorite thing. Is my favorite thing? You know, there's always you know, money, probably Python the Holy Grails one of my favorite movies, because every scene that comes up,

you're like, oh wait, this is my favorite scene. Oh wait, this is my favorite thing, right, And that's what this show is everything that comes up because you go, like, you love these characters and you remember these moments and you can watch them over and over again because they're not sweaty and they're not trying to do hard, and they're not joke joke, joke, They're just behavioral and beautiful and relatable, not intimidating, and it just makes you feel

good about your life, and it makes you feel good about other people. You know, it really makes you so like, this makes you tolerant of other people in a weird way because you're watching such a such different group of folks that have no reason to be together other than the fact that they are trapped within this building in this situation much like school. You know, the only reason you're there because you all live in the same area and that's why you're there. You don't choose to be there.

And so there's just something very lovely about that. And I think that you know, people will be watching the show for you know, as long as the planet exists. Well, Paul, you're I mean, seriously, I know this sounds so crazy. You really are one of the greatest comedic geniuses that I have ever met. Your contribution not only on this show. But in all the work that you've done is such high quality. You're such a good caring person as well,

so you're as smart as you are kind. So thank you one, thank you coming in and sitting down with me, and um, it's always always my pleasure to see you in YouTube. Brian, You're the greatest. Remember where we first met arrested Development exactly, and you were so funny and then Mitch wouldn't let you do your bit because you really, like really let you this guy, and so I was felt bad. So when I finally got to work with

you again on the Office is like, oh yeah. And let me just say also, everything you've done is so brilliant. I still laugh every time I think of Michael's a genius. That makes me laugh so hard. From that episode that's one of our most undersung episodes to the surplus. So anyway, I can't stop talking about the Office. I'm going to get out of here, all right, Thank you, Thanks, all right, folks, that is it for today. Thank you so much to Paul for joining me. I know how busy you are.

It is such an honor and a delight to chat with you, so thank you, and to all my listeners, Thank you for tuning in. As always, please let me know what you thought of the episode from today in the reviews. It means so much to hear from you, and that is absolutely the best way to reach me and my team. We will be act same bad time, same bad place next week and have a great one everybody. The office. Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by

me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer, Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer, our producer is Adam Massias, our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor is Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth Olandskipe. Give us the attention. We need everything you've got fast waiting on reparations. We beat the podcast.

Tune in every Thursday, politics and wordplay. We fight for the people because they got us in the worst way. From the Hill Cooper, the Bomb Bay to Kant, from the Left Enclave to what the neo kanze. Every Thursday, the Heavy Conversation and to break us off with some break because we wait in the reparation. Listen to Waiting on Reparations on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Emilia on this podcast. I'm taking you on a search, a search for love.

Hard working Martina, but there were other reasons I felt like I couldn't always beat myself. My mom's in prison. This is Crumbs, my love story. It's to show about the things we set up for and the bits of ourselves that make us who we are. Listen to Crumbs on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jake Calburn, host of deep Cover. Our new season is about a lawyer who helped the

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