Melora Hardin

blue jeans. Dressed the History of Fashion is available on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever else you listen to your favorite shows. New episodes drop every Tuesday and Thursday. Baby Girl, Baby, Why is Your Girl? Be? Samone and I got my beautiful pretty co host Pretty Be. What's up Girl? What they do? What they do? What they do? You guys just kind of the women while not podcast. We got our girl dressing a Valentine in

the buildings. We're continuing the conversation about all the hot topics that matter to us the most. We got amazing guest the cast of Whiling Out and more. Listen to The Woman, the Wall and Out on the Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Starting February, Hi I'm Hillary Clinton and I'm so excited to be back with a third season of You and Me both. When I started this podcast, we were going through some tough times, and let's face it, we still are. And

here's what I know. We cannot get through this alone. So please join me for more conversations with people who will make you think, make you laugh, and help us find a path forward. This season, I'll be talking about the state of our democracy with experts and with people organizing on the ground. We'll draw inspiration from some amazing people like Olympic star Alison Felix and Grammy Award winner

Brandy Carlisle. And we'll get into the hard stuff with writer Cheryl Strait and my dear friend and colleague Juma Aberdeen. So join us listen to win me both on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, everybody, I'm Laura Harden and I played Jan Levinson on The Office. Well, welcome back everyone, Thank you so much for joining me again here on the Office Deep Dive. I am your host, as always, Brian

Baumgartner on the podcast. Today, as you just heard, we have the insanely talented Laura Harden Me Laura is an incredible actor and probably more than anyone else in the cast. Acting and show biz was in her blood. Both of her parents worked as actors, and she herself started out as a child actor. She starred, She didn't just appear. She starred in a TV show called Thunder when she was ten ten years old. So by the time we filmed the pilot, Laura was definitely the most established performer

on set and now me. Laura played a kind of unique role in the ensemble, right. I mean, she was the the big wig boss who rolls in from New York every once in a while. She's not there in every episode, but she brought so much to the show in that role, especially in terms of her dynamic with Steve Carrell, which was so hilarious and well obviously something

we discussed at length during this conversation. Unfortunately, because of COVID, I couldn't sit down with me Laura in the studio, but even just talking to her by phone was an absolute treat for me, and so therefore now I treat for you. So here she is Melaura Harden, Bubble and Squeak. I love it, Bubble and Squeak. Bubble and squeaker cookie every month left over from the nut before. You know, I've tried to As I told you before, I tried to do all these in person. I did Ricky and Stephen, uh,

Stephen Merchant and Ricky Gervais the other day. You sound so much better than they do. I don't know what's wrong with love. That's just because I'm better than they are. Well, yes, obviously, I'm gonna actually i'll send you later a picture. I am in a room totally by myself. I'm standing so that I don't catch coronavirus in this thing. I'm about three ft staring directly into a wall. It's very disconcerting, but you know, UM, all right me, Laura, thank you

so much, um for coming to talk to me here. Well, you didn't really go anywhere. You didn't really go anywhere, But so I want to talk a little bit about you. Before The Office. You started as a child actor, right, Yeah. I started acting professionally when I was six years old. So I was doing tons of you know, guest starring roles I had done. I think The Office was like my eleventh pilot that I had done. I had done many short lived series I've done some movies and yeah,

that's and I've done a little Peter too. So I had heard fourteen, but but you just said so the the Office was the eleventh pilot that you had shot. What happened to the ten before? It could have been? It could have been the fourteenth. I don't know, you know, to be honest, I've done so many. I mean a lot of them were like short lives some of them. Some of them were just pilots and then they would get canceled. Um. Some of them were short lived series. I was on quite a few series that lived for

you know, six episodes, ten episodes. Uh, well, I did. I did some shows when I was a really kid, like I did a Shaturday morning show for kids when I was ted about a black stallion that came when I whistled, and together we would save the day. And and that one ran for a series that was like twenty two episodes. And then and then I did another one called Cliffwood Avenue Kids, which was a syndicated show at the time when shows were syndicated, And I was nine when I did that, and that one, I think

was like twenty five episodes. But other than that, most of the shows I did were like six episodes, you know, five episodes or just pilots that then were that were never picked up. When did you first hear about the American version of the Had you seen the British version? I had never seen the British version. I'm not a big TV watcher in general. Um, And I I remember

it was. I remember it weird, And it's weird that I do remember it, because I don't, you know, there were so many auditions at that time in my life that it's weird that I remember it. But I remember going over there, and I remember it was sort of a last minute thing. You know. Usually actors are, you know, supposed to be told the night before so that they have at least a night with the material. But it was sort of one of those things where I think my agent called and said, oh, you know, we have

this thing for you. They want you there at like a two o'clock today. It was like an afternoon thing. I had already been on a couple other auditions or something. I remember walking in, picking up the material, standing outside and working on it, um and basically going in pretty cold and just doing it, but liking it like right away and what was funny was that Allison are our

casting director. She had been I get it. All was also casting a pilot at the time that I had been in on the day before, and probably this is how this last minute audition happened, was probably through Allison, because I had been in for that and they were making a deal for me to come in to do a test for this other pilot. And so I went in. I read cold for the office pretty much pretty cold.

But I also could you know, just because I've been doing this as long as I as I have, you can really feel when the room is like buzzing with what you're doing. Like everybody was kind of riveted. It was ten Coopis and it was you know, Greg Daniels and um, I'm pretty sure Phillis was maybe there, but anyway, Alison for sure. And so yeah, I did it, and I remember everybody just kind of being I could tell they were just kind of like hump they were they

were really liking, you know, liking what I did. And anyway, so the next I think it was like a couple of days later, for the next day even I went into test for this pilot and Allison came out. You know where I was the waiting room and it was just me and she came out and she said hi and I said hi, and she goes, you were fantastic in you know, in that audition for the Office. Now, remember the Office was a guest star possible reach character.

That's not like just for people that don't know. That's a nice thing to get, but that's not like getting a series, like a starring role on a pilot that could turn into a series, because that's more money, and that's you know, better for us as actors. Anyway, So I was, like I said to Allison, I was like, yeah, I said that was fun. I said, well, you know, I really liked it, Like maybe I'll get both. And she goes, uh, I really want you to get that one.

I really want you to get the Office. And I thought to myself, hump, Okay, you know, but that's interesting. You know, she's a she's a she's a pro, she's been around a long time, and she knows something, you know, she knows like she could tell that. I think that the Office was special, and so I basically just went in I read for the other thing. I didn't end up getting it. The pilot did get made, it did not get picked up, and I ended up getting the

office and here we are. That's that is crazy. And when you were originally cast, you didn't think it was a big thing, like it was maybe it was going to come back. Maybe I mean, maybe the role would come back, but but you had no expectation for anything long term. I didn't. I mean, you know, as I said, I've been doing it so long that you just you get to where you kind of have a pretty thick skin and you're pretty wary about things. And I mean I always tell everybody that I didn't even believe we

were a hit. Um, even after we'd won the Emmy. I didn't believe we were a hit until we won the Stag Award and I had to walk around with that like fifty pound you know, statue all night and the next morning I woke up and my bicep was so sore that I couldn't lift my arm. It was like literally I needed physical proof. And then I was like, oh,

maybe we are a hit. And it was I just think it's like, hit me a lot later than anybody else in the cab, because I just was I had done so many things that were like semi successes or you know, I just didn't believe it, Like I just didn't believe it right well, and and you know, you were you know, you were the most experienced film and television actor certainly in the pilot. And so when you showed up, did you have any sort of first impression of the other people in the cast? I remember thinking

that it was just really well cast. I remember just feeling like, oh my god, these are just great characters, you know, and I and I love immediately. I loved working with Steve. I mean, I would say, because of my experience, you can really get a sense very very quickly of the actors that can that can play with you and the actors that can't. And um, because all my stuff was with Steve in that first season, I

really didn't work with you guys at all. Really, I mean I had no interaction with you really decides, just

glancing at you and glancing at me. But um, but it was like it was like I was so relieved and so grateful and excited that whenever the cameras would roll, I felt like Steve was very playful with me, um on camera, as far as just his ability to you know, give and take and just kind of be really in the moment and not get thrown by any little new thing I might throw his way, Whereas sometimes you work with more inexperienced actors and you'll do it one way

and they'll go, oh, you didn't do it like that, or they'll be like, oh, I wasn't expecting that because the last time you did it more like this, you know. And that always just kisses me off so much, because I'm always like, oh my god, like, really, are you kidding me? We can't do it like we can't do it in different and have fun and all and try new things, you know. But Steve was always just like, you know, just so ready with the bat, you know, to hit the ball however it came. And I think

we both have a lot of fun with that. I mean, I would hope he would say that he did. I certainly had a great time working with him, right. I Mean, it's funny because I just started thinking about how so much, yes, as you said, especially early on, but really throughout the show, how connected you were with Steve, and how so much almost unlike most of the rest of the show, you guys played one on one quite a bit, so most of your experience wasn't really with the entire ensemble, again,

particularly early on, but really with Steve. Yeah, yeah, it really was. And that was very interesting. Yeah, that was very interesting, I felt, you know, and I felt that I think even as time went on, there was sort of a sense of not belonging there for a long long time. Really, I don't think I ever felt like I belonged, really, but I think that's probably by virtue

of the of the way that it was written. But I that's not to say that I didn't enjoy everybody and love everybody and feel like everybody you know, enjoyed me. I did. I don't know. I just felt like the little like the team, the clan, like you guys were in the office every day together, um, you know, and I wasn't. I would pop in and out, and when I did, it was always it was mostly that kind of more private thing, which was maybe by design because

Dan is kind of an outsider, right. I Mean. The other thing that that occurred to me is, you know, we've done a lot of conversation about you know, the cast of this show and how different it was at this time and play specifically that our show started. You know, to break the mold, and they really sort of leaned into these are real ordinary people who are working in

an office, specifically in Scranton, Pennsylvania. And it felt like to me that you, you and your character though like maybe it was you being like a New York person right like you always seemed and looked felt a little more put together, a little more you know, which really contrasted in a way with with everyone else was who was in the office right right, Yeah, I think that's true. And I and I remember that that was even somewhat

of a of a of a struggle with Greg. I remember Greg Daniels Um talking a little bit about that, even with me and and and with the costume designer

and um, with the makeup and hair people. You know, he used to say a lot, you know, like make sure she's not too pretty, make sure she's not you know, like, don't dress her too holid, you know, take you know, take the makeup down a little or or he sort of and he grappled with, you know, why would why would Michael be with someone that looked like and felt like jan Like how would he get someone like her?

And that was like that was I just think of thing on his radar all the time because he really wanted it to feel, you know, really real and really documentary and really like we were really peeking in on this um these people's lives. And I think I think that was just always the same for him, And he was always tracking that, and he would talk to me about that, and you always wanted to know what I thought about that. Why would she be attracted to someone

like that? And and I had lots of reasons, you know, I I it for me, it was easy to figure that out. But but that's my job, you know, that's part of my job as an actor and certainly as a working actor for as long as I was. You have to find a way to win your mind, justify kind of anything that that's thrown at you. So I had gotten very good at at knowing how to how to make something that seems almost unfathomable, you know. Real. It's a hard time for hiring, so you need a

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Need to hire you need. Indeed, did you know that on the day doctor King was shot, the all black security detail normally assigned to him was called off. They're the ones who would not allow him to stay at any hotel with balconies. That security union was reassigned. That was a man there. And did you know that on the day doctor King was shot, two black firemen stationed across the street and one black police detective who was surveiling King. We're all taken off the job. Well, what

was the emergency that called usually moved? Sure? Did you ever asked what this was all about? This is the MLK tapes. The first episodes are available now listen on the I Heart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Have you ever felt depressed about work only to have your dad be like, why you're so down? So you told him you hate your job and he said, well, you better talk yourself out of it. And then you thought, hmm,

I love to talk. I could host a podcast. And then you went to Speaker from my Heart and started a podcast and got good at it, then monetized it, then quit your boring job and told your dad thanks for the advice, and he was like, well, that's not what I meant, and I don't understand what a podcast is. But you seem happy, So that's great, kiddo. You ever do that? Well, you could at speaker dot com. That's spr e A k E. R ask your dad, you actually don't. What do you think Jan did see in

my hold? I feel like Jan was um, you know, she was really brought up in a man's world. I think she became more masculine in her affects and her behavior than she actually was inside. And I felt like, you know, some part of her was really sort of sad about the loss of her femininity. And I feel like that that Michael's kind of puppy like adoration of her um made her feel more feminine and more womanly and more more like she could just be, you know,

softened softer with him. And I think she wasn't. I don't think she was softer with him on the outside. I just think inside his sort of like he just wouldn't stop coming after her, even when she was a total, you know, bitch to him. I think that I think that just made her feel loved and like she could let down a little bit of that masculine guard that she had learned you know, that learned behavior. Right. Do you think that there was real love there between Michael

and Jan, Yeah, I do. I think it was completely dysfunctional, but I do, Yeah, I do. I think she I think she didn't even know that she was in love with him. I think she was right. Yeah, there's Um, it's interesting. We I've been doing a lot of talking about sort of michael search for family and his need and desire to be loved and you know, for him, his landing the boss, right Jan, the sophisticate from New York, right, like that for him is a huge win. And I think,

you know, raises himself up in his own mind. Um. But I think it was really well said, like that she was searching, you know, she was she was coming from a specific culture and maybe wanting something different for herself. Yeah. I mean I think she just was really focused on climbing that corporate ladder and forgot about her her need for you know, companionship. And I think he was all wrong in every way and there was something that was

like un undeniably attractive about that for her. I think she just needed a little bit of shaking up and sort of that that adoration that he had of her, like just he just was so proud of of having sex with her, He was so proud of having a relationship with her, and she was just like, you are so stupid, But but I like that, right, He kind of liked being his trophy, even though you know, she found him ridiculous. I think, do you think do you think that she had gotten to a point where she

was lowering her standards? Yeah, I don't think she had standards. I think she would have. I just don't literally, I literally don't think she was thinking. I think she forgot about her love life. I think she probably you know, had had sort of sex, very disconnected sex with like,

you know, different executives that she'd worked with. But I don't feel like she really had a real relationship with anybody that was really meaningful until Michael, And I think that My instinct is that, like, her relationship with her father was probably pretty um like disconnected. I mean, I think that Greg would say that that she had lowered her standards. I don't think it was really about standards.

I think she just was taken with his um you know, let's say Steve's you know, description of that would be that it was more like an ego Phil. I don't know. I don't know what Steve would say as far as if that was Michael's ego phil to be with Jan, or if he really was crazy for her. But I think the way that Jan read it was like Jesus, I can like keep you know, beating this dead horse and it keeps fun like it makes her feel loved, it makes her feel worthy. It's just a weird phenomenon, right.

I think Jan definitely, you know, liked it that she could curl up in his arms and you know, on the on the bench on the bottom of the bed where she put him, and she could cry and she could be like, I'm sorry, and he probably could be like, oh it was it was nothing. I don't even know what you're saying sorry for, you know what I mean. What do you think that their relationship, What do you think that it added or or gave to the to

the show overall? Well? I think it gave. It gave him a kind of, um like a sexual play that I don't think he would have had, uh necessarily without it. And you know, it was really something that Steve and and I and and Greg Daniels noticed in the pilot. I remember being at lunch with with with all of us, the three of us were having lunch together, and I remember Steve and I and Greg all kind of saying, you know, there's some kind of an interesting spark between

Michael and Jan's, like there's something about them. And we were all like, yeah, if we get an opportunity, if we get picked up, we should really have them hook up sometime at a convention or something. And we were all laughing about this idea that maybe we'd get to have them, you know, have some kind of an affair.

So I think there was just a titilation that it added to the show in the same way that you know, the Pam and Jim love story had a little bit of titilation to it, and you know, and there were other stories that you know, Dwight and Angela, you know, there were things that all happened over time, and I think that created at fun sort of titilation. And and also because because the Michael and Jan's story was like there was something really right about it, but also something

so wrong. It's just it's you know, it's just it's kind of delicious. How much input did you have on Jan with Greg or the writers. UM, I mean I think I do think it was a dance. I mean, Larry Wilmore early on really love to write Jan and he and I became friends, were still friends. UM. So we used to talk about Jan a lot, uh, over lunch and stuff. Greg and I talked about Jan a lot,

especially as seasons went on, you know. Um. Greg was always curious about what I thought about you know what, I how I felt she might react to this or that. Um So that was really nice. And I would say for me again, you know, just referring back to how long I've been in the business, that was my first experience where writers were really interested and collaborative in television. Uh. And so Greg really like that really changed for me just sort of everything that came after that, you know,

just the feeling of that. And I I'm not sure I think Greg was a big, big part of changing the way writers really are on set on television sets. I really do think he was kind of a maverick and a leader in that, certainly for for my experience, which was you know, hefty at that time. I've had a lot of experience, and I just never had writers interacting on such an intimate way with the actors and just being on set as much as they were being you know, being so involved and so hands on and

really wanting to hear from all of us. I loved that. Gosh, that was just a revelation for me. Right. I mean often on other shows, like writers are on set to really oversee and make sure that the words are being said right or said correctly right. But you know, I I agree, I think here it was really about a collaboration and finding the best answers that we could to you know, to make something funny or you know, to make it work better than it really was collaborative. So

that was different for you, Greg was different for you. Yeah, yeah, and all the writers and and um, I mean Mindy Mindy Kaley wrote that, you know wrote that episode of me singing the baby to the baby because I had just done Lame is on on at the Hollywood Bowl and she was so blown away that I had done that and that you know that I had a voice like that, and she was like, we've got to get you singing on the show, and I got to find a way to do it, and you know, and that

it was just kind of neat that they were wanting to really use like what we had to give, and they were, you know, finding ways to do it. I mean, you know, and they would take things that we would

say and turn them into jokes. I mean, the whole um, the whole breastfeeding the baby at the office thing for me happened, I think really because I was breastfeeding my daughter at a brunch that had with Greg and his wife and Steve and his wife that Greg's house, and I think it made it made Steve in particular uncomfortable, and I think that Greg was sort of I don't think he was uncomfortable, but I think, you know, I also felt really like very feminist about that, you know, like,

you know, we can carry guns in this country, but you can't breastfeed a baby, and that's like what our boots are for, I you know, like I felt, and I think I even said that at the brunch, and I think Greg just took that and was like, oh my god, this is amazing. We're doing this on the show.

And I think the war Hal thing also came I think similarly because of that, because they came over to my house for dinner with Paul Fieg and his wife one night and I have a record cover that I you know, I have a few CDs and that I've made, and one of the record covers of my record called Her, is a painting that one of my closest friends, who I've known since I was twelve years old, Hey painted for me, and it's a giant painting of me with a whole bunch of kittens, and it's basically a kind

of inspired by a Gil elve Grin pin up painting. And we had that hanging over my couch in our old house, and I remember when they came in, um Greg saying something about it, and me saying, you know, what's interesting about that is that is that I wonder sometimes if people think that I think that that's like serious, you know what I mean, Like if people think that, like I have a painting of myself over my couch, like I have to see myself every day at a

giant painting, you know. And I was we were joking about how, you know, I think it's funny that that for me, it's like a total tone tongue in cheek thing. But it's also reverence of my second CD and this sort of like, you know, all these very funny tongue in cheek songs that are you know, that are that I wrote. And so for me, it's like it's a part of a celebration of something I achieved in my life.

That's part of my like passion and you know, but it also is to me a joke, Like I don't I don't think of it as like, you know, like the Queen's portrait. But I think he loved that so much and we had such a long talk about it, but then it showed up in the dinner party and I just remember loving it so much, like, oh my god, this is genius, Like Greg is just so good at spotting where there is an opportunity to just, you know, make a great joke about something. How much of me

do you think there isn't? Oh my god, of course, I mean, isn't there. I mean I think everybody. I think all my characters have me and them for sure. I mean I'm I'm them, they're me. Um, I'm a lot different than her, of course, Um, you know, but I think for sure, like the sexuality piece of her is like you know, I I brought that for sure. I don't think they would have necessarily known that Jan was that kind of. I don't think they would have gotten that she was that sexual had I not been

playing her. I just felt that about her and brought that to her. And I think I'm way warmer than her, and I certainly, you know, way more, way more conscious and she is. I've definitely, you know, way over ten hours of therapy. Like I know myself a lot better than jan Um, you know. But I think certainly there's elements of her that are me and neither are her. That would be weird if there were. I'm Jake Halbern, host of deep Cover. Our new season is about a

lawyer who helped the mob run Chicago. We controlled the courts, we controlled absolutely everything. He broughbed judges and even helped a hit man walk free, until one day when he started talking with the FBI and promised that he could take the mob down. I've spent the past year trying to figure out why he flipped and what he was really after. From my perspective, Bob was too good to be true. There's got to be something wrong with this. I wouldn't trust the guy. He looks like a little scum,

big liar, still bidgeon. He looked like what he was or at I can say with all certainty, I think he's a hero because he didn't have to do what he did, and he did it anyway. The moment I put the wire around the first time, my life was over. If it ever got out, they would kill me. In the heartbeat, listen to deep Cover on the I Heart radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. And we're live here outside the Perez family home, just waiting for the and there they go, almost on time.

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and the ACT Council. You know, one of the other things I think that the show explores is this idea of the American dream, both with you know, with love or bettering themselves like with Jim and Pam or Michael um and you know, specifically the Dinner Party episode, which is I mean, maybe maybe the best episode that we ever did. Um to me it it talked very specifically about the financial strain that we as Americans were really in on at the time. So it was played for comedy,

but there were there was real stuff going on there. Yeah, totally. Yeah, And that was an injury same time, just even the making of that episode was you know, was was right during the writers strike, so it was a very weird. It was a weird time to be making that episode. Anyway, we had to stop. We stopped and started again, I seem to recall, um, Yeah, and we were very It was very, very very hot. We were in a little condo over in the valley and it was like, oh

my god, it was just horribly, horribly hot. It was like a hundred and three degrees or something. So we had to keep turning the air conditioning off so that we would you know, for sound. So we were all in there just wedding, and we couldn't really go anywhere. We literally couldn't really get away from anybody. So whatever issues you were having, we were all having them together. Right. You talked a little bit about this before, But what

do you think Jan's dream was? I mean, someone say she she had the American dream at that moment, right, Like, she's the CEO of her own candle company, and she's singing and she has a man at home that's taking care of her, right, Like, do you think that that was her dream? Um? Yes, well I think it was

sort of what she thought her dream was. Um. But obviously, you know, it obviously wasn't because she was so tortured in pursuing maybe pursuing you know, this idea of an ideal that she thought was going to make her happy and but she was but it wasn't. It wasn't making her happy because she had more to give than that, um, and also because she just wasn't with the right partner. I mean, ultimately, Michael is definitely not you know, he definitely couldn't match her, He couldn't meet her. He's not

as intelligent as she is. He's not as worldly as she is. You know, he's probably not as sexual as she is. Like like, I remember one time a friend of mine telling me before I got married that there's like four things people need to look at with whoever they're potentially going to marry before they marry them. Basically, it's like physical activity, Like if you know one the couch potato and one likes to hike all the time. That's not going to work out so well. And the

other is religion or spirituality. You have to be kind of on the same page there, and then sexually you have to be kind of have the same you know, similar appetite, and then intellectually right, So it's like all those things. If you look at any of those things with jan and Michael, they're probably pretty much missing every

single target. That's so good. Well, her like journey, I mean, on the outside, you could say that she had it all right, she's a super successful businesswoman in New York City, and then she gets fired for that and falls apart and moves into a condo with her boyfriend. Right, But then she kind of builds herself up again and she has this candle business, and then she has a baby, and then she eventually becomes like a big executive again for White Pages. Like, I don't know, there's just something

about her searching, uh, that is just so interesting to me. Yeah, I think it's sort of it's the wonderful it's the wonderful element of not enough that she's constantly he's constantly trying to fill that void of, um, nothing is ever enough, you know, um, Michael's not enough, and then the job is not enough, and then the next job is not enough, not enough. And I think that I think I really

infused her with that. That's just a thing I understand super well and and I think it's a it's a it's a fascinating and very funny thing to to sort of wrap a character in sort of that cloak of just nothing ever ever being satisfactory. And I think it's also just I think to me, Jan is a great

example of what a lot of and go through. I think people identify with her because she struggles with I think a common problem just in modern day society amongst women, which is this this idea of not enough of what that is? You know that what what are we supposed to be? You know, we're supposed to be able to be moms and successful businesswomen and great sexy partners and money earners and soft and beautiful. And it's a real thing. And I think that Jen encapsulated that in a way

that no other character on the Office did. I agree, her search the entire time was an active search for something better. Yeah, for sure, Um, other than it being super freaking hot. But other than that, is there any other specific memories that you have from Dinner Party episode? Well, first of all, I mean one of the greatest moments of the Dinner Party was just a purely improvised moment where you know, where, um, I say, I'm the devil, and I put my hands up and just did that

little devil a little devil horns on my head. And that was just something that just literally came to me in the moment and out of the moment. I didn't plan on that. I just that was just what I was feeling like at the moment, and and you know, Steve just took it and ran with it and then

he was doing horns. And I think it's like literally one of the funniest And I remember that we were that we were like even in the moment, we were like mad at each other and almost cracking each other up simultaneously, which I think is such an incredible line to walk that I think probably is where a lot

of the sexual tension lies with Michael and Chance. It's the sort of fighting and fucking thing, you know, um, and I just I just think that that was just to me captured in that moment, and it was a real moment, Like the audience is seeing that exactly what happened is exactly what happened, you know, and that's sort of so so so fun and so special when you get that on television, because that's like pretty rare that you get any moments like that on television. That's more

of like a theater experience. So that was pretty cool. And then I think just the amount of times that we just all couldn't hold it together. I mean, how much we cracked each other up. And and I think that we were all just the discomfort of being in such a small space, it being it's so hot, were like all on top of each other. I mean, my god, we just couldn't stop laughing at like Steve I think, must have said a hundred different versions of you know,

getting his tubes tied, like I don't. I mean, we just tried so many different ridiculous versions. It was great and so fun and again so collaborative, and you know, the writers sort of throwing things in and Steve throwing things out at just you know, and me throwing some

things out. I don't. It was just so fun. It was to me, it's just like playing in a fan box that whole episode, and I remember Jenna and I having we had some scene where I just remember we couldn't literally was the only time on the show that

I that I couldn't stop laughing. I don't remember. I think we were just so tired and hot, and it was sort of the end of the night, and I think everybody was sent home and it was just she and I and where she's like in the bathroom or something, and I don't remember exactly what the scene was, but it's upstairs and I'm like and I have to knock, and like every time I opened the door, she opened

the door, we both were just burst into laughter. It's like, and that's a very unusual thing for me where I can't get myself together. But I think it took like I think it took like ten to twelve takes before it was it was not good. It was like it was got to a point where I was like, come on, Laura, like I had to slap myself in the face. Well, I think, you know a lot of people mentioned it as their favorite episode, as you you said before it, you know, it came out of a really, really difficult

time in our industry and the writer strike. But another thing that comes up a lot is just how how incredibly cringe e it is. It's that and Scott's taughts. Kind of the two episodes on our show that was the most cringing, and I think the moment that that represents that to me at least, I don't know, maybe it's as a man, but the snip snap, snip snap. Oh god, yeah, and the idea of being forced to get a vasectomy and then get it reversed and then get another one and then it plays out in public,

um was I know, it's so bad? And then I mean also the the Asa bugo that's like not even in yet, right right, and that everyone's been through that, like oh no, you have to do this all right. I'm gonna wrap it up soon. I do want to go back. And there was one thing that last night, just I don't it fascinated me. A lot of the times that you appeared, as we talked about before, you were one on one with Steve, but then a lot of times you were one on one with Steve, but

you were on the phone. Can you tell me a little bit about how those scenes were actually produced? Yeah? So I would come in to set, and I would go in the other room and we would actually record me on the phone two rooms away, so that we could really have a real scene that was in the moment um, and I would actually be on the phone in the other room and he would be on the phone on camera, and we would play the scene like that.

That's so rare, right, I mean that you you know, right, I mean, because normally you would shoot the scene with a person on camera, and then you if you weren't on camera, then you would be in a recording studio somewhere recording your side of it, or you know, show up at some time. But the the humor and comedy of those scenes that were playing out, you know, really played out almost as though you were looking at each other in the room. Um, I remember you over in

the annex right, like where Toby used to sit. You would call in from there and then you guys would get together and have notes, and then you would walk back into the other room, right, Yes, exactly, yep, I

don't know. I thought that was so great. It is, it is, and it is honoring the real um benefit of like having two actors there to to discuss and to be you know, we're with the writers and like with the director, and you know, we're all kind of a team, and it's it's kind of honoring that human that human thing that I think we're all really missing right now, that human interaction that that none of us can have at the moment with the whole COVID nineteen things.

But that is one of the great you know, one of the great things about our work is that it is so human. It's so it needs humans, and it needs are human input and it and it needs to be done by humans. I mean, you really can't. You know. Everyone's like, oh, you know, someday it's just gonna be robots, they're not gonna need actors anymore. And I'm like, I don't.

I don't think so, you know, I think humans connect to other humans, and you know, you can make them as real as you want, but they're still not humans. And um and he and we're the ones that come up with the surprising proof of of the moment that makes it so much more hilarious or so much more poignant because of what the writers wrote and because of how the actors, you know, find the truth in there.

So I don't know, I've just been thinking about that a lot, I guess, just just the human nous of of what we do and how we really rely on connectedness, human connectivity, and and you know, we need each other like you need another actor across from you, you know, swinging the bat and hitting the ball back to you and like playing tennis, it's like you've got to have

got to have that to make a scene fly. So um, I'm so grateful for for that on this show, just the you know, I would say that Steve, he played the game really really well on camera. I loved. I just loved when when they would say role camera. I loved how we played together. I loved how free he was hitting the ball back to me and and receiving whatever ball I threw him, even if it was a curveball here and there, he would sort of receive it

with glee and hit it back with real fun. And I think that's just because we both have had a lot of improv in our background, and when you improvised really well, you know, you're good at like making those surprises work for you. So yeah, I think that for me, it was probably the greatest joy looking back on the office, the times of the office just being able to play ball with everybody. You know, what do you see as the show's legacy? Gosh, I mean, I don't know. It's

it's like such a phenomenon. Um. I mean, I think sort of any great comedy that's just really memorable, you know, like the Andy Griffith Show and Seinfeld and you know, they they were kind of doing something that hadn't really been done successfully yet and they did it in a way that was just right, was just right, and everything about the show, you know, from the writing to that acting, to the cast of the directors to the producing, you know, it just was right. It just clicked. And you know,

who can ever say why? Like, I don't know why, because I think because it's so it's really trying to be what it is. It's never not trying to be what it is, you know what I mean. It's just so unlike anything else that was on television or had ever been on television. And I think that is the

magic of it. That's the thing that made it be able to withstand this many years and this much success and this much of Yeah, I um, I mean, you're just so talented and you were so awesome as jan and your thoughtfulness and incisiveness, and I just appreciate you so much, So thank you so much for coming to talk to me. I appreciate you so much, Brian and I and I love that you're doing this. And you know,

I'm not really one too. It's funny, I don't really I really wouldn't have thought of talking about this stuff unless you've brought up the questions. So I appreciate you're also you're very thoughtful questions and I appreciate you including me. Well, there you have it. Thank you so much to me Laura for joining me that conversation. Now, it gave me a whole new appreciation for the comple lexity of Jan Levinson. I just love diving deep into the psychology of our characters.

I just love it. And also snip snap, snip snap. Speaking of diving deep, next week, we are kicking off another mini deep dive, this time into perhaps the most important character on the office, the camera. That's right, We're going to discuss the camera as a character. Now. This is one of my absolute favorite things about our show, and I'm so excited to get into it even more with you guys. Until then, thank you all for listening

and well, have a great week. The office. Deep Dive is hosted an executive produced by me Brian baum Gartner, alongside our executive producer Langley. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer, our producer is Adam Massias, our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor is Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by Seth Olanski. I'm Joe Piazza,

host of the podcast Under the Influence. If you tuned into our last season, you know that the world of mom influencers on Instagram contains multitudes. Yes, there are pretty pictures and gorgeous kids, and yes there's lots of money behind a lot of those pictures. But there's also something much more dark and complicated going on in the background, and that speaks to everything that is wrong with how

we treat women in the world. On season two of Under the Influence, we're advocating for the women who make content and the women who consume it. We're going into some of the darkest corners of the social media universe, and we might just have a plan to shut it all that held down. Listen to Season two of Under the Influence with Joe Piazza on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm

Glory Adam, hosts of Well Read Black Girl. Each week we journey together through the cultural moment where art, culture and literature collide and pay homage to the women whose books we grew up reading. It's the literary kickback you never knew you needed. Listen to a Well Read Black Girl on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Did you know that on the day Dr King was shot, the old black security

detail normally assigned to him was called off. They're the ones who would not allow him to stay at any hotel with balconies? Did you ever asked what this was all about? Yes? And this is the MLK tapes. The first episodes are available now. Listen on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.