Matt Sohn

and forgery in the art world. I just walked in and saw this great red painting presuming to be a Rothko. Of course, art forgeries only happen because there's money to be made, a lot of money. I'm listening to how what they're paying for these things. It was an incredible mans of money. You knew the painting was fake. Um Listen to Art Fraud on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi. I'm

Glory Adam, host of Well Read Black Girl. Each week we journey together through the cultural moment where art, culture and literature collide and pay homage to the women whose books we grew up reading. It's a literary kickback. You never knew you needed. Listen to a well read black girl on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. My name is Matt Son. I was a camera operator. I was a director of photography, and I was a director of the TV show of

the Office. Hello one and all, thank you for joining me on another episode of the Office Deep Dive. It is so great to have you here. I am your host, Brian baum Gartner. Now today we are diving deeper into our Camera as Character mini series with a conversation with my dear, dear friend, Matt Son. Matt was hired by Randall Einhorn as his camera operator starting in season one, and then Matt went on to replace Randall as our director of photography, and then eventually, just like Randall, became

a big time director. In fact, he's so big. I had to travel to New York to conduct this interview, which I would not do for just anyone. Let's be clear, and speaking of New York, in my conversation with John Krasinski, who I also spoke to in New York, I explained that Matt and I had a very special relationship on set as I told John, I thought of it like a quarterback and a wide receiver, where Matt would give me a nod and I'd know he was going to toss the camera to me for a button or a

look of some kind. And when I told John this, as you may recall, John ripped me apart for saying that. But let's just say in this interview, I get fully vindicated. So take that, Mr Krasinski. Um. In addition to being the quarterback to my wide receiver, Matt is an all around fantastic guy, and he shared so many wonderful insights about what made our show truly special. So sit back and enjoy my conversation with the very wise, always correct,

never wrong John matt Son. Bubble and Squeak. I love it. Bubble and Squeak, Bubble and Squeaker Cookie every month left over from the Nabby. Oh there he is. I was just reading your text messages. Are you? Oh you you look way way less haggard than Randle Ranble's got this full, beautiful thing. It's like it's he's got I think he's trying to emulate Larry Charles right with the beard. No, you look very I mean, look, you've got a directing. Actually,

I remember that about you. That was well, that was my difference. Yeah, when on set you used to change wardrobe. Well for my directing, when you directed, you would dress up. That was your signature thing. Well, no, it was so people would look at me a little differently than the jeans and the because I would get judged. Man. No, I mean you never were Paul Feig though, of course not. Um, are you comfortable? Are you you need to? I noticed it just jumping right into this are we because it

doesn't seem like you want just to say hello? I know we're saying hello. There's nothing, there's nothing, No one has any control over us. Yeah. Um, it's very good to see you, as always you. It's been too long, that's that's usually the case these days. I saw John Salada. We I talked with her last week in Los Angeles. Oh did you interview her? And I love her, love her and we keep in touch. So do you? Yeah? Oh,

good for you. Well, it's interesting because Jen and my daughter have a relationship because my daughter is now thirteen. Both my kids were born during our time on the office. I know, what was it that, Yeah, yeah, yeah, So she's she's a big fan of the show. Now it's

it's so funny because she's both my kids. My my son has just started watching it and and so both of them are huge fans and and it was great to watch her see the show for the first time because she was like, wait, it's Mindy, it's it's b J, it's you know, all the people that were over for our Halloween parties and that she had no concept of. And then she was like, wait, I didn't know. I didn't realize that. Yeah, oh yeah. And my son likes to tell people that, you know, he was on an

episode of The Office. Who was it? Who was he again? So I think it was baby shower. Greg asked both Mike Shure and I if we could bring our babies to set, okay, because Steve needed to hold a couple of babies, and our wives are in the background of the shot and the kids, Michael's Michael's holding the two babies, and you see, uh, Mike Sure's wife and you see my wife kind of in the background behind it. That's

so cool. So my son, my eleven year old son, likes to make the point that he was on the Office. Oh my gosh, that is crazy. It's funny. So you, um, let's go back to early two thousand's you are well, you did the first two Apprentices, is that right? Season one and two I did, and Survivor I did. Now, when was Survivor? Was that early Sururvivor was before Survivor was before the Apprentice, and then before Survivor was Eco Challenge the Adventure Race? Okay, now that you shot with Randall.

I think Australia was like the third season of the Eco Challenge and that's where Randall. That's where Randall and I. So you found Randall in a bush in Australia, I would say Mark Burnett found him. And you were a camera operator. I was a camera operator and then I started deepeeing reality stuff. I was deepeing documentaries. I was doing low budget movies. So how did you get hooked up with the folks from the office that was all? Randall? Randall? Yeah,

Randall got hired. I think Randall had some kind of relationship or new got to know Ben silver and Silverman, and then I think it was Ben that brought him in. And because Randall and I knew the dance and you know, he was planning to operate. He won somebody that understood it, brought me in and uh, yeah, we did it together. Now when you say do the dance, what do you mean?

So when with the particular style of show, because it was a mockumentary documentary, it was what we did in the bush, you know, for survivor, for whatever, and your storytelling from behind the camera. You're finding everything that you need to to to find and a lot of times you're by yourself, so you need to make it look like there are multiple cameras covering a scene and you're you're having to react quickly, you know, to catch the moments. I think that was sort of what was brought into

the style of of The Office. I mean, it existed in the style of the original version, but I think we kind of honed it down. It was something that Randal and I did anyway for our reality and documentary stuff. So when you're shooting documentary reality type stuff, is anybody prompting you about what to get or in theory, there's a producer out there, But a lot of times when someone talks in your ear, it's more of an annoyance.

It's it's all about having instincts and listening and being able able to kind of edit things within your head and understand what shots you need to tell the story. Interesting and on the show you had earpieces on on the office at least part of the time, and I remember, now you guys yanking them out? Now, why who was talking to you on the office. Well, it depends upon when when you ask that question, because there there would be times where you know, we had I think we

had the smallest camera department in all of Hollywood. It was you know, it was random myself, it was Chris, it was ed for the first season, first two seasons, I think we had a DID and the theory with DID what they would roll the iris, they would control things. But the problem is is that Randal and I kind of did all at ourselves. We were pulling our own focus. We were changing the exposure. And when you do a camera move, and that DID is realizing what it is

and slowly doing pulling the iris. It's not as quick as me knowing, Okay, I'm gonna throw to somebody over in the corner, and I see it's darker over there, so I'm gonna open up my exposure and pull my focus and zoom in for the shot. It's kind of multiple things going on at once. I don't know if that answered your question. No, it does. I mean it's also giving me a greater appreciation that you kind of knew what you were doing, which until this moment I

didn't realize that you thank you. I appreciate that. No, but no, but that's interesting. So in a way, because you guys were taking care of so much of it yourself, other people were just kind of getting in your way that you needed it to be more rugged, ragged or well.

I mean that was the feel of the show. I mean, we we we would lay out you know, you'd have a director come in and you talk about the the shot and it's the only you know, there are very few shows that can on the same lens, start with a super wide lens and then zoom in tight to someone's face in the first moment and do a whip across the room to catch somebody else's reaction. You know. It's a plus for the show is that it could look a little dirty and didn't have to be perfect.

I mean, I think we were good at what we did, but you could see, you know, when things aren't, you know, immediately in focus or you're missing it and you're finding it. But it's all part of you know, the show. Right. Was it a conscious decision by you you're working in reality television, Did you want to be working in the scripted world or was this just a job that showed up I was playing in the scripted world. I would I would come in and operate on Scrubs and a

handful of other shows. I was shooting scripted, you know, low budget feature or stuff, and I enjoyed it and it was something that was interesting for me. Ultimately, it came at the right time, you know. I ended up I got dangay fever on Survivor Thailand and that I was sick for I don't know, like six months from that. It. Ultimately it did two wonderful things for me. Number One, the girlfriend that I had that took care of me. I realized I needed to propose to That was the

most important. Number Two, is it sort of knocked me out of reality television. I was supposed to go from that Survivor to do the next season of The Amazing Race because I was bouncing back and forth between five and The Amazing Race and I physically couldn't do it because I had no energy, I had no strength. And it was a little while after that then I got the call from Randall that said, hey, do you want to come and operate on this new show? And I

jumped at the opportunity. You know, once you're working in a particular field, you get kind of buttonholed into it, and it's what you get known for, and it's where you end up and you know, so it was nice to break that gravitational pull from and to get into scripted. Um. He attributed this to Greg. But one of the things that Randall talked about was this sort of adage, everything

that makes it harder makes it better. I think it was originally Einstein or something, but it the idea was Einstein, Greg, Greg Einstein, Randall. It's all the same um that the idea that you didn't want to shoot something perfectly, like having to fight through a pillar that was in the middle of the room, or or even moving a plant over into the shots appear to make it difficult without

a doubt. Well, and it's also interesting because you know, after takes you would learn the script and know when the line was you didn't want to beat a whip to somebody who had a line you wanted a reason to have to pan over to accounting, to to whip over to Stanley. You know, you needed that moment. You didn't want to beat it there, but you know sometimes

you did well. I remember actually, now that i'm thinking about it, you guys would ask at times for uh handles, particularly if the line was short, without a doubt and

a handle. It would just be something as simple as a h or Michael, yeah, just something, And then it just gave us that excuse to do that whip to that person, because a lot of times, you know, it's impossible to truly cover a true conversation when you got six people talking, and when people talk naturally and they're saying something as simple as why yes or whatever, and you want to be able to get that and sell the joke. So just to have a little handle on there,

you know, gave us a fighting chance. Yeah. I mean it was great because the camera was definitely a character in the show, and and it was great to be a part of that. And it did you know, there were there were scenes that were written as a spy shot, and there were scenes that were written you know, Okay, the camera's obviously there so you can feel free to look at it. But there were also scenes that I think we discovered once we shot them, what felt better

and what worked better. And you know, it might have started out as a spy shot and then someone was caught and you saw that little look to Cameron, a reaction and a change in a tone, and um for a comedy, it was very different stylistically, and you know, I think that the Brittish show was very different stylistically. So, I mean, you know, one of my proudest accomplishments is being a part of this show that has, you know, become so much more than I feel like it ever was.

Now however many years it's been, you know, since it was on the air, and that it still holds up and that the joke still lands and that the comedy is still there. Yeah. Do you remember you shot most of the talking heads? Yes, that I did. Do you remember the most difficult or some of the most difficult things that you had to shoot from a standpoint of not laughing or I'm fortunate that I am kind of a laughing on the inside clown and I could keep

it in. And the good thing about breaking in a talking head is the camera was on a tripod, not on my shoulder. The bigger challenges was to break during scenes that we were shooting and the cameras on my shoulder, and there are some extra little shakes and giggles. Um. And there's one particular scene that I remember, not a talking head of of Steve Krell. I don't know what it was, Steve Krell saying, uh, how Benjamin Franklin is

a douche. We had the Ben Franklin uh impersonator, yes, and and I don't know what it was, but I was in tears and I could not hold the camera because I was giggling so much with that moment. And that was the one true time that I broke. Now it was a regular thing. Like Jen Slata broke a lot when she did her interviews for the Talking Heads. Yes, we've discussed she having to be banished from the room. I often she would have to go out and and

we'd give them another eye line. Um. I feel like, you know, for Talking Heads, rain Dwight had the most ridiculous talking heads of anybody and your comedy and without a doubt, and those were the ones that I feel like not only broke him, but broke everybody around him. It's a hard time for hiring, so you need a

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What's Up, guys. I'm a Shoplau and I am Troy Millions and we are the host of the Earnier Leisure podcast where we break down business models and examine the latest transit finance. We hold court and have exclusive interviews with some of the biggest name the business, sport and entertainment, from DJ Khaled to Mark Cuban, Rick Ross and Shaquille O'Neil. I mean our alumni lists expansive listen in as our guests reveal their business models, hardships and triumphs, and their

respective fields. The knowledge is in death and the questions are always delivered from your standpoint. We want to know what you want to know. We talked to the legends of business, sports, and entertainment about how they got their start and most importantly, how they make their money. Earni a Leisia is a college business class mixed with pop culture. You want to learn about the real estate game. Unclear is how the stock market works. We got you interested

in starting a trucking company or vending machine business. Not really sure about how taxes or credit work. We got it all covered. The Earnier Leisure podcast is available now. Listen to Earnier Leisure on the Black Effect podcast Network. I heart radio, app Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Were you consciously I mean you talked about the camera being a character. What characters did you like? Well?

It was so funny though, because I feel like I was so invested in so much of it, and and it became a thing that it was like I knew that I could give you a look and throw the camera your way and you were always there to give me a reaction. And and I recall that I could have a shot of John or of Michael, and I could just peek over and catch your eye and give you that look and do a whip to you, and you would be there with some kind of eye roll or giggle or something that would make me laugh. And

it was a worse while worthwhile moment, you know. And I know that it wasn't everybody that I could do that with. And I know that you and I had that relationship and and it worked well, you know, And I know that the accounting department as a whole, knowing your guy's backgrounds, I know you guys always had your little bits that you did and that you worked really hard in trying to find those moments. I mean, in the early days, you know, all those other characters kind

of blossomed into what they were. They were all so minimal, and it was fun to find moments and to find stories that weren't necessarily there, and to make more out of a moment, and to be able to do it with just a look, you know, throwing the camera to you to get a giggle, and then finding Angela being annoyed because you're giggling at whatever Dwight is saying at the moment. It was priceless and it made it in

and it was funny. Yeah. Well, first of all, I want everyone to know I did not prompt him to say those things. This was that was a spontaneous thing, and I have told people that you specifically we would do like the wide receiver quarterback, not like I got you, got me, I got you, It's it's coming. I told John this story. He just railed into me. He really like, We're like, we're having a great scene and now you

want to take credit. But you know what that that was my small contribution at times too, without scene well and when they couldn't get it together, that's it. Randall and I would have the running joke that we would throw to John and he would give us the number four, which was a particular look that he would give number four. We had it numbered, so there were a couple of looks that were sort of the John looks, and and it depending on what the scene was, we would know

this is a Dwight moment. Up he's going to give us the number four. I'm throwing to John there it is the number four. Well, and that's that's so funny because my really my question about that, like the you know, if the camera is a character, then obviously you're affecting that relationship. But also like did you feel like Jim was more simpatico with you know, the documentarian or oh without a doubt? So yeah, I think that Jim's character as a whole, more than anyone else, Jim was the

one that had the biggest relationship with camera. He was the one truly grounded, relatable person on the show, and he was the one that I think had the best relationship with the crew and that he kind of knew what we were going through and what we were dealing with. So you could always find Jim for a look or a nod and and you know, he got it right.

So what was always discussed externally was the the character's relationship to the camera and whether it was there or it wasn't there, or was it seen or not seen, were we're trying to hide from it or whatever. Was there any discussion about you as the cameraman having an opinion or having a perspective on what you were seeing. I mean, I feel like our perspective came across in how we covered the situations. So I don't feel like we went into it with a plan. I think something

kind of grew out of it. You know, there were characters who almost never played the camera. I feel like Mindy never really played. Yeah, like I did more than Obster and All. I feel like, yeah, I mean Creed, no, Kate, No, not really Leslie. I mean I feel like they were aware but just doing their thing. You know, Michael would get caught and he would catch the camera and see the situation that he was in and fell caught. Jim seemed to always know where the camera was at all times.

Um Kevin seemed to be aware of the camera because it was another kind of play toy for him. Dwight, it went kind of both ways. There would be times where he would kind of try to present play to the camera and other times where he would kind of just get caught. Did you feel like how much did you feel open to making suggestions on the show. Well, what was interesting with the show is that that we had we had great directors. We had who's who of

directors come into the show. You know, when you have Paul fig Kin, Kopis, Um, Harold Ramos, J. J. Abrams what was great. I mean, ultimately, all of these directors were my directing school and and my whole thing once I started directing on the show was that I throughout my time there, I tried to pull something from each of these directors to keep with me, whether it was a positive thing or a negative thing that I learned.

With all of these directors coming in, they all had such respect, which I'm thankful for for both Randall and I to let us do our thing because we knew the show so well. And I think Charles McDougald might have been sort of the only director that was so specific with his moves. You know, he had such a vision of it that he would say, zoom into his face, down to the credit card, up to the computer, down

to the keyboard, right to his face. You know, he had these other times, you know, most of the directors would say, well, yeah, just cover this and make it feel you know, like the office, and Randal and I would do our thing. Okay, quiz question, Okay, you have to answer, honestly what type of scene would cause the biggest disruption in our work day or week. The conference room scenes were the black holes scenes. I mean, they

were brilliant for what it was. But when you got the entire cast sitting in chairs and you have Michael Scott doing one of his bits, and depending on what kind of mood you were in, but depending on what kind of mood John was in, who was messing with who it would it would decide if we were going to be there for hours or if we were going to get through it. You know. But constantly people were breaking, people were messing around, people were Yeah, it was chaos. Okay,

that's a good answer. You you failed the quiz. Oh shit, really? Yeah. I have said that nothing could halt production like a Jim Pam scene. Oh see, I thought you meant an overall scene. Oh god, there would be all sorts of huddles and groups and clearings of sets when there would be like a Jim and Pam moment. I had a very specific Tom Waits impression that I would do, which would be something like, there's a discussion at themonitor and the writers would get so aggravated. But it was true.

Though the writers would get called, they would all come down, we would dissect the scene, we would rebuild it. It also depended on who was directing and who had written it, you know, and who was present at the time those early Jim and Pam scenes where they were just starting or I mean the kiss, Oh my god, you know, we cleared set. I feel like for an hour and

a half. I think that that Kim, because it was Kim coppas that was with them on set, and then just Randle and I came in and we were shoved in corners just to see where we would get our shots from, and we had our game plan and just getting to the point of of rolling on that. Why

do why do you think those were so important? Well, again, I think that their relationship was such a great thing, and it was a slow burn early on, and they didn't want to go too far too fast, and they wanted to keep it grounded and they wanted to keep it real. And I think that it was finding that exact tone that kept everybody happy, that kept their relationship, you know, on point, to give it that slow build.

And the great thing about their relationship is it felt real and it felt grounded, and it wasn't one of these ridiculous, romantic, silly things that you see in a lot of shows that just happens. It was a slow burn that basically grew fruits of their labor. Right. But you guys, I mean, it's a curring to me right now. You guys were so instrumental in telling that story because it really was just about you guys finding very very

small moments. Because they were so small, they were super charged, right, And and with that, the cameras were always hidden. It was always at the end of the lens. You know, you would you would be so still that the only movement in the camera would literally be your heartbeat. Yeah, I mean, I think that those moments were so well written and so well acted that it was easy for us,

being hidden, to tell our side of that story. And then you got to tell like a fun love a couple of fun love stories with Dwight and Angela and Kelly and Ryan, which were kind of the opposite and spectrum, and and just the same with with Ellie and Andy. Yes, you know, there were a lot of relationships that that blossomed within that that office. Um anything specifically different about

how those things were. I mean, the Dwight and Angela was really about, uh, you know, trying to like fight hunt them down sort of like you know, maybe some pairing on Survivor right, and that one was specifically fun just because of who those characters are and how they dealt with each other, and and it was it was

wonderful in its own right. And then you know, Mindy and and Ryan was its own dysfunctional relationship that you know, had other echoes of based on reality kind of moments that we're kind of fun to to to be aware of. Think with the Ryan and Kelly stories, when I would we would be reading an episode and a table read, and I would sort of immediately go and be like, who wrote this episode? Again? Okay, all right, I see

where this one's coming from. Well, I had heard that there were sometimes where when those two were fighting in real life, that the writers would come together and make sure that there was some scene that they were making out on set just to kind of poke the bear. Yeah, well, that sounds like it, like like Mike Sharre playing Mos which which well, in that first season where they made

him grow the beard and keep it. I remember we had there was like a we didn't get a shot or we needed him with the beard and he had to wear it to the Emmys or something ridiculous. Do you remember that, man? No, I have some vague recollection of it. And we're live here outside the Perez family home, just waiting for the and there they go, almost on time. This morning. Mom is coming out the front door, strong with a double arm kid carry. Looks like Dad has

the bags. Daughter is bringing up the rear. Oh, but the diaper bag wasn't closed. Diapers and toys are everywhere. But Mom has just nailed the perfect car seat buckle for the toddler. And now the eldest daughter, who looks to be about nine or ten, has secured herself in the booster seat. Dad zips the bag clothes and they're off, But looks like Mom doesn't realize her coffee cup is still on the roof of the car and there it goes. Ah,

that's a shame that mug was a fan favorite. Don't sweat the small stuff, just nailed the big stuff, like making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right seat for their agent's eyes. Learn more NHTSA dot gov slash the Right Seat visits h s A dot gov slash the Right Seat. Brought to you by NITZA and the Ad Council. The Gangster Chronicles podcast is a wiggly conversation that revolves around underworld, the criminals and attainers to victniss,

crime and law enforcement. We cover all facets of the game. Against the Chronicles podcast doesn't glorify pro motilicit activities. We just discussed the ramifications and repercussions of these activities because at the wall, if you played gainst the games, you are ultimately rewarded with Gainster prizes. Our Heart Radios number one for podcasts, but don't take our award for it. Find Against the Chronicles podcast and I Heart Radio app or wherever you get your podcast. The art world it

is essentially a money laundering business. The best fakes are still hanging off people's walls. You know they don't even know or suspect that there fakes. I'm at like Baldwin and this is a podcast about deception, greed and forgery in the art world. You knew the painting was fake. Um, listen to Art Fraud on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. M Randall leaves. Randall left UH and I became the DP and Sarah

Levie came in. Sarah Levy was a camera operator and she came in and day played with us when Randall was still around. But she was also just a great fit for the show, so it was perfect to get her in. You know, right now, Sarah's doing she did Captain Marvel. She yeah, she works all the time. She's a rock star. Yea. Was it a big change for you taking over that role on the show or not? Really?

I mean I was fortunate enough that I knew the show so well and had worked so closely with Randall that I felt like, you know, I was, I was ready, and it was an easy transition to make. But then you start directing. Actually that was before Randall left that I got my first opportunity. You got your first opportunity during Happy Hour? Was it Happy Hour? Or was it? It was? It was Happy Hour? Sorry, because they the name changed at some point in time. It was Date Mike,

but it got changed to Happy Hour. Happy Hour was the episode and that was in season six. How did you feel about that? Was that? Was that something you'd always wanted to do? It was something I was interested in doing. Um. Greg gave a number of us our first true opportunities to direct. He gave Randall the opportunity that Randall took and ran with uh he gave it to Dave Rogers, editor, to Claire Scanlon who was an editor.

But I feel like Greg gave us all these opportunities that helped step us all to you know where we are now as directors. Um. I was thrilled to get the opportunity to direct. It was great being on this show because I felt like I had so much support from the cast because they all knew me. I you know, I always got some level of ship from somebody, but I felt super supported and Um. It was also a great episode because we spent so much time out of the office and I think we were in a what's

the arcade name the two names the Dusters. It was like that, yeah, but it was a David Buster. It was the David Busters up at Universal. And but the name it ended up going with was Sid and Dexter's, which are the names of my kids. Well, I pitched it, they were kind enough to accept it, which was kind

of fun. Um. What's so great about this episode to me is that you know, he's getting set up by Jim and Pam with one of Pam's friends, and he's so sweet and genuine to this woman until he realizes that he's on a date, and then he goes back to his car and he puts on his kangle hat on backwards and he becomes date Mike. He becomes this horrible, horrible other person that he that Michael Scott believes is what he needs to be to make this date work.

And he causes a huge scene, and you know, everything with this woman that Pam has trying to set him up with goes to pot but he ends up ultimately making an impression with the manager of the bar and gets a phone number, so he leaves thinking he succeeded. So it was ultimately a win from my in a very sad way, in a disastrous way. Right. Um, Well, you mentioned people who Greg gave an opportunity to direct, and the support that you felt from the actors because

you were a part. But you know, he also gave Steve an opportunity and John and Rain and myself an opportunity to direct, and I think we felt so at ease because of the support that you gave. On the other side of it was kind of a yeah, we

kind of helped each other out without a doubt. You know, the the the the show was like a family because there were so many people that were on the show for so many seasons, and you know, to spend that much time with that many people, to have lunches with everybody day in and day out, to be trapped on our small set day in and day out, you have no choice but build a friendship, right and I you know, it's it's the most fortunate experience I've ever had, and

I think I will ever have in TV. You know, it has truly given me everything else that has come since, and it has set me up to deal with everything that I've dealt with and taught me, you know, to get to watch actors who start out as kids and nuancet to become huge megas celebrities, and junior high kids today are binge watching it, you know, day in and day out. It's amazing. I I love the fact that my dad has all of the swag that I got from the show. It to your dad. I gave all

my stuff. So he wears the jackets, he wears the hats, and you know, my dad is eighty six. He goes out to the store whatever is wearing an Office season two, season three jacket or hat, and no matter where he goes, he gets stopped and somebody's like, wow, did you work on the office and and it makes him laugh and he makes him proud, and uh, yeah, it's funny. When did you here that Steve was leaving? Do you remember? Oh, boy, did you when you realized that he was leaving and

we went and we shot goodbye Michael? Do you remember emotions that came up? Again? Because I'm not only a laughing on the inside clown, I'm also a crying on the inside clown. So it was a running joke on set to guess who was going to cry next on during that week, because boy, it was. It was contagious and it just went around and there was a lot of emotion, and all I remember is going, man, we're

never going to get through this week. It was the end of an era, you know, the fact that he was leaving, and it was one of those things that there was that level of unsure nous of wondering what happens now? You know, is this ship just going to immediately sink as soon as he steps off of it or can it continue to sail? Well? You you directed the next episode after he left Inner Circle with Will do you remember any specific I don't know pressure that you felt or I hadn't realized that that was the

one after he left. Yeah, what a horrible thing to do to me, probably just because no one else was willing to take that episode. Yeah, it was all on my shoulders. How was that directing that right after Steve left? Well, again, it was it was that whole thing that the show

must go on. We were still our king forward. It was sad not having Steve around, but we still had a job to do, and you know, to have Will there wasn't a bad thing, right And then the office goes to Florida and you direct two of those episodes, and I'm a little bit hurt that you didn't mention your favorite director that you worked with was me, hands down, who directed another one of those episodes. Yes, of the Tallahassee episodes. Now, as a first time director of the show,

what were your biggest challenges? Well, you screwed me. I mean that my biggest challenge was you actually excellent. And I don't know if we have discussed this before, but I will tell a story. So in my episode, there was a little bit of Ryan actually also kind of flirting with Ellie. Oh sorry. Aaron played by Ellie kemper, and they decided to break into the kitchen and they

were gonna make a waffle. Yes, they were going to make And so suddenly some people came into the kitchen who worked there, and they weren't supposed to be there. This was at a big hotel. So they hide under a table, okay, and we shoot this, and I'm looking and I'm very attuned to their performance under the table, and you know, I really felt like I did really great on my job. And we had a background performer, and we had background performers who were walking back and forth.

You could see their legs and they were in the shot. And at one point, a background performer was standing right behind the industrial table where they were hiding under, and um, please can I can I And I'm I'm I have a vision now? Was this the guy that was cracking the imaginary eggs? Yes? So I'm very focused on our principal actors. You are supposedly looking through the camera lens at what we're shooting and making sure that everything looks

a pro oprio. And there's a background performer who, for multiple takes stood above the table just and took a bowl and cracked imaginary eggs on that bowl and did the yoke thing and threw the eggs away and kept cracking eggs into this bowl. So I go into edit this episode and they're like, see the guy back there, and I'm like, what, No, b J looks great, what do you mean? And they're like, no, the guy cracking

the imaginary eggs. So they literally had to go in and zoom in to cut out now that you could only see the guy's hands, like you couldn't see his face or anything else, but you could see him fake cracking. And here's my question, Yes, was it my camera or was it the other camera? Actually, here's the important thing. The important thing is is that I think we only had one camera going because we were shooting. I think should have been watched. You either shot it or you

should have been watching. I think I again was mesmerized much, but like you by the performance, that's my job. I'm the director. You need to pay attention to what you're added to the list. Brian Um season nine comes, you hear the show is coming to an end. What's your What was your feeling then? To me, it was time. It felt right for my career personally, it was time because then It was after this show that I stepped away from camera as a whole and just started directing.

And you know, it was interesting for me for my career. When I got my representation, when I got my agents, they said to me, Okay, it's time for you to step away and just become a full time director. And I said, you know what, the office gave me all of these opportunities, I'm not leaving them. I'm going to stay and finish the show. And you know I was. I was happy to be a part of it again. To be on a show for nine seasons is in my mind, unheard of. It will be the longest I'll

ever be, you know, on any show. And I feel super fortunate, and I'm glad that I stuck it out and was there for the whole run up the show. So you laugh and cry on the inside, did you do you remember specific emotions like it's the last final table read. It was a great episode, And I don't know how much you remember of that episode. Greg was writing up to it was almost as if he did not want the show to end. He kept writing more

and more and we kept shooting more and more and more. Yeah, was that your first acting work as documentary crew member. I was told, I was assured that they were going to replace my voice with a more masculine documentary documentarian voice. So I'm in Dwight's car, he's driving, and it scripted that the dogumentarian asks him a question, and I was asking him the question, so he had someone to answer to. And again the discussion was, oh, yeah, we'll we'll change

it in the edit. Lo and behold there's my My first and only acting credit for anything is the Office. So I guess as things go, it's it's not bad. What do you think it's harder acting or operating a camera? Oh? Boy, I think acting is harder only because you're getting judged constantly by everybody. I feel like my operating can get judged one or two people. But yes, but but but nobody's judging my physical appearance, nobody's nobody's seeing into my soul.

What are you most thankful for the show? I mean, the show gave me so much. It gave me, you know, nine years of regular work, which is huge in this business. It gave me basically the career that I've continued on. You know, Greg Daniels gave me my opportunities to direct. It gave me friendships with a whole lot of people that I never would have met if I hadn't have

been part of the show, you know. But it also gave me such an amazing look into sort of the underbelly and behind the curtain of what it takes to make a show. You know. I was very privileged to get to go to meetings and get to be in rooms and get to hear conversations and get to be part of conversations that, you know, in any other case, I wouldn't have been provided to And uh, it's hands down, it'll be a highlight of my career. Yeah, where do you think that you would be right now if the

Office had never happened, if you hadn't gotten dangy fever? Boy, that's a very good question. I I don't want to think about that, right. I feel very fortunate, but I don't know. I mean, I feel like I wouldn't be where I am now without the show, and I don't want to think about where I would be without the UM. Well, thank you so much, busy big time director. I don't know about that. You're a busy, big time director, happy to be working and I so appreciate you coming and

talking to me about these old times. It's my pleasure. It's really fun. I'm sure there's other stuff that I've forgotten. It doesn't matter. Now. I have one other thing. Did you do you remember the conversation with JJ Abrams his first day on set? No, what was a conversation? How he freaked out his first day on set? Oh? Tell this,

JJ Abrams freaked out the first down set. So the first season we shot the show in Culver City, we used the Felicity offices right and when he was on our set because it was a copy of that set. The conference room was his office on Felicity when he ran that show, and he said every time he was on the set, it freaked him out because all he remembered was that's the conference room, but that's my office, myfice. No, I did not remember that. Yeah, I remember that. Um J.

J Abrams wanted to direct a whole season. He and Greg said, no, he wanted to direct a whole season. Wanted to come in and direct a whole season. Does that guy have the time to season? I don't know how he had wanted to do everything he does. Yeah, I remember him bring us food trucks every day. But I remember also we had a conversation just in between takes about Coldplay and I had mentioned I was a fan, And the next day he comes in and he says, hey, man, I got you the new CD. Cold Plays new CD.

I thought you might enjoy it. I was like, who are you? How can you have time to go get this place exactly? How can you be this nice of a person? Yeah? No, I mean so many Harold Ramos, Harold Ramos? Who else? I mean? Jon Favreau was great. Brian bamb Gardner. Brian bomb Gardner, he was unbelievable. I recall he was strong. He brought it. You know, we didn't. We weren't sure, but he brought it. Thanks buddy, you got it, my friend. Well there you have it. This

is what I heard. Matt Son said that I Brian bomb Gardner was one of the best directors ever in the history of the Office. His words, not mine. I hope you all enjoyed this, this mini series on camera as character as much as I did. Do yourself a favor and go back and watch an episode of the show, a scene of the show that you enjoyed, and just imagine Matt and Randall holding the cameras trying their darnedest

not to laugh. It's a fun exercise. Thank you all for listening, have a wonderful week, and I will see you next time for another installment, another chapter of the US Deep Dive. The Office Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Langley. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer, our producer is Adam Massias, our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor is Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is

Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend Cree Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth Olandskip. Mama, what is the chicken? Sell raf Diraffe? Felling giraffe giraffe. You're not gonna get it all right. Just make sure you know the big stuff, like making sure your kids are buckled correctly in the right seat

for their agent's eyes. Get it right visits n h S a dot gov slash The Right Seat brought to you by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and the AD Council. We've all felt left out and for people who moved to this country, that feeling last more than a moment. We can change that. Learn how it belonging begins with us dot org, brought to you by the

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