Kevin Reilly

building that community building the best version of you. Make sure to listen to Building a Good Life on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. I'm Colleen with joined me the host of Eating Wall Broke podcast while I eat a meal created by self made entrepreneurs, influencers, and celebrities over a meal they once ate when they were broke. Today I have the lovely aj Crimson, the official Princess of Compson, Asia

Kid and Asia. This is the professor. We're here on Eating Wall Broke, and today I'm gonna break down my meal that got me through the time when I was broken. Listen to Eating Wall Broke on the I Heart Radio app, on Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Black Effect presents I didn't know maybe you didn't either, but the history of black people ain't rooted in slavery.

Oh no, his royalty not despair. Beat out here and every day in February, I will give you a Black history fact that I didn't know, and maybe you didn't either. It's a rugged, ratchet, realistic look at history. Listen. So I didn't know, maybe you didn't either. On the Black Effect Podcast Network, our Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or just wherever you get your podcast from. I am Kevin Riley was a president of end VC Entertainment through the

entire first chapter of the American version of the Office. Hello, peeps, welcome, We're at it again. This is The Office Deep Dive, and I am your host. I am Bom Gartner. Today you will be listening to my interview with Kevin Riley. Who's Kevin Riley? Why are you interviewing him? I don't even remember his name from the credits. Well that's true. Kevin Riley was not in the credits for the show

because Kevin Riley was even more powerful than that. Kevin Riley was the NBC executive that was responsible for bringing The Office to the air. If it were not for Kevin Riley, the Office would have been canceled after six episodes. Kevin staked his reputation on our show, and he fought for us every step of the way. And by the way, Kevin is responsible for shows not just The Office. Kevin was a network executive behind such shows as Saved by the Bell, e r Law and Freaking Order, The Shield,

Niptuck Rescue Me. Then after the Office, he went on to develop shows like thirty Rock, Friday Night Lights, Glee, New Girl, Bob's Burgers, The Mindy Project. I'm gonna stop, but my point is we all, oh Kevin, a gigantic thank you for giving us not just The Office but also like of our favorite TV shows. So on that note, I present to you the man behind the Curtain, Kevin Riley, Bubble and Squeak. I love it, Bubble and Squeak on Bubble and Squeaker cooking at every month, left over from

the night before. Great to see you. It's been so long, are you? Are you putting this whole thing together? I'm putting this whole time. I did not know that. I know, I love it, you know, I just didn't connect, as Ben caught me in between meetings any of them. The podcast that I realized and then I love that you're doing. It's actually perfect. By the way, I never even connected to this moment. You also have like a great podcast voice too. You done voice over over there, I've done

more recently. You can get in there and do what you need to. No, No, You're fine. I've been told this a while and it's my cadence mostly of my real book is that I sound like Tom Hanks. So there's a no, there's is actually true. I know, I never I never know. Now that you say it, yes, I have that, then describes it as um, a smoky, potentially whiskey laden version of Tom Hanks's voice. Um, but I'll take it whatever. Um. So yeah, I mean we've

it's been amazing. I mean so much that I have learned, and you obviously so important, and especially these early years. So I want to take you back. So you join f x and two thousand and you're there through three years right in this actual building, which is crazy coming in in this build looking in. Yeah, this building was a sort of Fox outpost. It really was the New World Television building. It was really a crappy building. Yes, in fact, it hasn't been really improved that much. They

put a little veneer on it. But at the time I mean, my rug. I had left these beautiful offices in my previous job. My my, my rug had a giant stain in the middle. It was literally a hole in the wall in my office. And I said to the office manager. She said, hey, anything, we can do whatever you need, just let me know and we'll get it for you. And I said, you know, you think I get two chairs that match and she said, no, I'm sorry, we can't do that. That's where it was.

But then things really a golf um. So Ben was telling me that you had well. Nick grab was your development executives and he apparently was a big fan of the British version of the office. And now when did you become aware of the British version of the office? I had heard of it, but Nick has always had a good nose for sort of what's next. He was the guy always looked to like, is this sound cool? Yeah, okay, great,

I think it's cool too, you know. And so it was one of those where I had kind of heard about it. I was like, yeah, I thought this, I think this thing is something. And he came seeing it and talking to Bed we can get it, and it's we gotta have it. And now did you meet with Ben while you were at f X. No, we never did. Really. What it was is I was in the middle of that transition where it was three magical years of f

X with a lot of things happening. This is on the heels of winning all awards with a Shield and NIPT and Rescue Me was being cast, and Russo's first project Lucky was here, and it was just a lot happening, and this would have tucked right in so it was

a perfect effect show. But my contract was up. I was in the middle of a lot of negotiations and it looked like I'm going back to NBC at this point, and that's when I start talking to Ben because I'm like, you know, look, I'm not maybe not staying it, but if I go, I'd like to take this with me out the door. And you know, wisely, I think Ben smelled the opportunity would have made a great effect show, but just from a value perspective, I think he was like, well,

that's that's better. So we kind of then went quiet on it and just sort of sat on it. Okay, So then he started meeting with you once you had gone uh to NBC. Yeah, we had kind of wink winked like, I'll see you over there. But at that point then it picked up momentum. I was going, that happened pretty quick, and we need to take it over to him. And you made a deal there, so you pick up the pilot. Now you've got to find somebody to run it, and you start meeting with with showrunners

to run it. What were your initial instincts about Greg? Well, Greg, he certainly from the get go had my respect. I mean he's known as a very thorough for a couple of things. Number One, all those years on King of the Hill, Yes, which was a show I loved, and I know Greg from everybody I knew respect it said Greg was the real deal. And then secondly Conan, who I now subsequently have gotten you know, known for decades

at this point. But I knew that they had come up together and we're both close college friends and had comedy background together, and I just so I don't think

we really ever That wasn't really ever sell for me. Yeah, I wondered if because he hadn't come from you know, live action scripted, if there was any concern about that, or you just met with him and you knew as most people do who meet Greg that you know, Yeah, it's just that quiet confidence, you know, where you know, when he says things like the same show with Hope, You're like, Okay, I think we're I think we're good to go here. That like mad like that, not even

professor but a genius. Yeah, I mean, you know, but early on, when you're trying to have this give and take conversation, you know, Greg is a man of few words, and sometimes you know, kind of just sort of drifts off all and you and we kind of left there. Okay, So early on it took me a while to get the rhythm of you know, he's not a guy where you're kind of, you know, hitting it back all over the net with some top spin on it. Like I

think Greg got that. How involved were you specifically obviously you had final say, but in in the casting, how involved were you and choosing the people? Well, the casting is something you ultimately have improval over at the network because it's it's really everything at the end of the day.

I mean, you got to get the script right. But the script right with the wrong casting, you know, you're you're dead, especially in comedy, and this was a in some ways of fantasy casting process, because first of all, we were out of cycle, you know, so we didn't have to do this in the shotgun old pilot season lock and load. You know, you've got five minutes to cast it. We had months and months to do it. And I have to say, I don't know how many they went through. It was never privy to how many

came in. But all I know is, you know, the trickiest one obviously was Michael and it came down to Bob Oton kirk uh and who was the guy that we end up casting in? What was this CORRELLI? Yeah, howd that work out? And so you know, and I'd known Bob back from the Mr. Show days my former company, uh Brillstein Entertainment, we produced Mr. Show. And you know, I thought Bob was a major talent. And by the way, I had a great take on the character, a different one.

So my involvement is I saw every audition for every character and they were just fantastic. You know. By the sometimes this process can be really a struggle. You know, someone who brings it in and they go, we found the guy, and you look at it and you go, this is this the guy you're talking about? Did I get the wrong all right, boy, I am just not seeing it. We had none of those. I mean every time it was like, well, that's the guy. And then Jennet came in, Oh my god, that's her. And it

was just right from the get go. I think everybody just made decisions and had a nudget in their own direction and it was a blast. And then guys like you you know, who were just coming out of nowhere where where wait? Wait where this guy come from? This is fantastic. How on board were you with the idea of total unknowns? I mean Steve had you know, had

Bruce Almighty? I had no, Well he look Steve. I had done multiple busted pilots with Steve and several bad series that he had co starred in or been in. He was always funny, and this goes back to the Dana Carvey Show with he called There, and I mean it was it's got It's got its own little weird cult. Following there was like a Netflix special about it, and at that time I was like, Wow, that guy Correll is funny and he was always good. But it was always good in a bad thing, you know, or something

that was okay but didn't take off. Actually, during the casting process when we were considering, Steve Stacy Snyder called me up. Was running Universal Pictures at the time, and that was our sister company at the feature side. He was doing Four year Old Virgin and she said, I'm gonna send you some dailies. You should see them. And I was like, Wow, this is a whole another gear for this guy. And I don't want to say that was what sealed because, by the way, at that point,

who knows what that movie is gonna do. It's not like, oh, he's already a star, We'll just plug him in. And then it was just one of those kids met kind of things where it was just the right move. It's a hard time for hiring, so you need a hiring partner built for hard times. That's Indeed. If you're hiring, you need Indeed because Indeed is the hiring partner where you can attract, interview, and hire all in one place.

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to Before Breakfast wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, so you meet Grag all these cast members. It gets picked up to a pilot. How has that received? It wasn't you know? It wasn't shown widely? Um. David Kissinger was running the studio at the time, was also really an advocate and passionate for this, and he was a co conspirator with me, But it was still delivered it to me and I would just say it was very slow. I was like, Okay, I can see the show in there,

but but man, we are defying people's patients here. Like editorially, it needed a lot of sculpting. You could see the comedy, you could see the characters. That was not a concern. Those are one of the big eases. Oh no, we've got wrong people, or this guy's not delivering, she's terrible. No, that was not the issue. What was working. What was working, But you know, that narrative was sort of going. And I would say one of the biggest things I had to work with Greg on is was just looking in

network television. You had to get through act breaks, you had to go sell toothpaste in the middle, and so I'd say, like, you know, Greg, we just sort of trail off here on these act breaks, and you know, we lose the narrative thread and that's kind of fun, but we gotta we gotta sculptu. I think Greg went back and this is really I think where we forged our relationship, because it could have been brutal, and at least I thought it was a creatively fun thing. I

think he did four team cuts of the pilot. It may have been sixteen, you'd have to ask Greg. But it was double digits and really really, and that's where I saw, really his true gift that he could find find it and he knew where it was and he could hunt for it in everyone. It was just Sharper and Sharper and Sharper, and you could I could just see it right, yeah, wow, And so they that we had time again. Had this been done in pilot season,

these are the vagaries of the whole thing. Had this been done even with my support and love, had we had only the time? Had this been the usual way pilot season was down, you shot in sometime April, you had a sometimes as to Editive, not weeks, because you had to go deliver it and test it and do this thing and then boom and then screen it. You know. Sometimes many of these pilots are screened off of two cuts.

If we had done that, dead just dead again. I loved it, and I was like, wow, when this needs work and we had time to do the work. So now we were sitting the other part when you were playing the system was you didn't want to be in too early. You want to hit a sweet spot when they're dying to see something new and maybe you've got a shot just psychically, Oh, here's something, we could be the next thing. And you kind of get in there and you don't want to be the leading edge. You

don't want to be the last one. And this thing just sat and sad and sad sad, and as it got exposed through the system, let's just say there the system wasn't overly responsive. Yeah, I mean, look the network at that point, had you know, I had started my career at NBC. I was there for six of the great years coming up, the heyday of NBC, the great and great things we're in and hard to cover in the network. I remember looking at his office and at some point I done to me, I don't wonder if

I could ever have that job. And now I came back and got his job and was sitting in his in his office and literally, you know, I closed the door and I had a moment. I looked up and I I felt so great and about and just amazing. I'm sitting literally at Brandon's desk looking at the monitors on the wall, and then I had this sinking feeling that I made a horrible, horrible mistake, which it was because the wheels were coming off the momentum it turned.

I came in telling everybody we need a new breath of fresh air, and this place is in trouble. And after decades of winning, a lot of the ethos inside the building was we know what we're doing, and it was a little like who is this guy? And I also didn't learn the concept of corporate buy in. You know, when you come into a company, really anywhere, you know

it's not a new different on a team. Know, if a coach takes over team, you gotta win over people's comment it's like all right, we'll follow you, we'll listen. You can't just come in now. Once people are bottomed out and are desperate, you got a shot. But until

that happens. And so I came in thinking things like the office like this is exactly what we need to do, and just a lot of people were like, no, no, we need the next version of that's sexy single girl in New York who's lives with some friends, and you're like, no, no,

we really don't. There was still this sort of thing that lived on in the building post friends of you know, no, no, we want funny, but they're gonna be sexy too, right, I mean we need that, and that had just made its way into comedy, which was never part of comedy, you know. I mean comedy was like funny period and uh so that was still a little bit in the wind of like wait a manute, this is a group of misfits. So this kind of just seemed like the

opposite of at least what everyone thought we needed. Well, I it's so fascinating the idea of we had this opportunity, we were handed this jewel, this great idea, this show from London, and everybody just kind of wanted to do the best that we could, to do something different, which is what you're talking about. You're up against this old guard and people who have done it in a certain way. And Greg was saying, no, we're gonna have writers. We're

gonna have writers act in the show right now. We're gonna not have a wall that we can move because we're a documentary, right and we're going to hire actors

that are not that are men. Even the stupid debates over the Doctor, I had to listen to opinions of people saying, you know, Americans associate documentaries with heaviness and non commercial it's just an obstructive format to most Americans, and you're doing a comedy through that format by its nature, and I'm just listening, Oh my god, really, and I'm some of these people they were professionals, but I'm just thinking, what do you know? And what are you talking? An amount? Right?

But how confident were you that it could translate to a broadcast audience because yeah, at the time, single camera, mock documentary, no laugh track, nothing like that was on network television. Yeah. What I felt all along for minute one is an office comedy is a staple of television. So, yeah, the form is different, the tone is certainly different. The leads attitude is really different. But at the end of the day, you're not gonna look at me wanting I

don't understand what what is it? They're in an office And I always clung to that all the way through. But it's just one of the things that I just loved about it. I love the outpost in the middle of nowhere. I love the the boss who's in this island, who is free to just run rough shot over everybody, And uh, Jim, I can't remember the exact line. Maybe you do in the pilot you know where they say, you know, describe what you do, and he's like, well,

what's paper products and processing? And we moved the skids into thing And I'm just I'm boring myself as is that for me embodied the whole show, you know, like we we don't actually even know why we come to work or what we really accomplished every day, right, Right? So I was told it was the worst testing show in the history of NBC. I don't know it was the worst testing, but it was. It was bad, the worst testing that maybe made it. It was certainly in that pack, I mean, of the ones that made it.

It was. It was really down there, right, So what was the idea behind giving five more episodes? Like? Did you have to fight to get those five? Yeah? First of all, and at this point two things happened through the course of the show for me, and I'll give you this the first part. At this point, I'm thinking, I really think the rebuild of NBC is going to happen, and this is going to be one of those pieces.

And I looked at the rest of the plat of stuff we had, which was ship So it's not like I go, Wow, I got ten other great things I just said, look, this is going to be a slog, but this is good, This is just good, and we're

gonna go with We're gonna start with greatness. And first of all, I have noted this before, but for the way the stupid pilot screening process used to work at these broadcast networks was everybody would fly out, and the East Coast guys and the heads of sports and the heads of affiliate relations and sales and research and all the all the middle aged white guys would fly out and sit in the room and you know, tell stories, and then you'd rotate around and screen all the pilots,

and people would rank them and put numbers on them, and then you'd come in and debate and decide, and you'd have to kind of hear all of that. Now, when things are going well and you have a hot hand of the present entertainment, you go through that process. But they are either not pushing back on you, or you have the ability to go, well, that's great, Brian, thanks thanks for that. That's fantastic input, and then just

go ignore it. But when the network starts to get on wobbly legs and I had not again established credibility, people knew me, they liked me, they're recruited me for job. But at this point I seem to be now uh, advocating for things that don't look like what they're supposed to look like. And this is identified as a problem early on, and so that gave other players more power to come up and say, let me tell you why this isn't gonna work, And then they had the research. Now,

so we come out of this pilot screening process. In every room is giving it, you know, ten is the best. Zero, We're going to give it a point five, you know, or or one? You know. Well, nobody likes it except one room. I go down and honestly, it was the only room I was interested in. The room filled with the assistance and the associates and all the young people, and that was the biggest rumor. Actually they're at like forty people in there. And I go in and I said,

what do you guys think? And I remember they take away is this not only is this the best thing we've done, it's the only thing we would watch that you're making, and it's kind of the only thing we'd watch and what currently on the air. And I was like, thank you very much, that's all I need to know. Wow, And like unequivocally, that room was we are in even with the first pilot, still hadn't It hadn't even become the show. It was they just because they were it.

And I knew it was going to be the young audience that we're going to cling to, but that meant nothing still in selling it. It still wasn't the five episodes order. And also Greg, look, Greg had made some money on King of the Hill, so he was willing if he had if he had fought and said I want to, he he cut his rate. He was willing to take the shorter order. He could have stood on

principle and said I'm not doing it. I'm not doing six and you know, I'm on a d cents on the dollar and that, and then it would have been dead. But he he loved it and he was willing to take the short And that's really basically all I could cobble out was that initial six episode mid season order. Right.

I love that story. And and a side note, I'm sure you don't know this, but like on the set, I was the I was kind of the business part, Like the business of television really interested me, so we aired on Thursday nights or whatever, and we would be in the makeup trailer and I would be going through the numbers and giving perspective as to why the numbers might be where they are, how they were related the

night before. But March Madness is on right now, so it's going to be like that was just that was what interested me so well. There certainly wasn't a lot of good news in those numbers in those first six episodes. It First of all, the network had very little momentum. You know, if this were still the days where we had big shows, we could have parked it in between. It might have been protected. But at this point in mid season the network kind of went from bad to worse.

During the year, we were beginning to just grind down. Uh that by the by marches, like people have kind of established what they're liking and not liking, and we bring the show on and it premier. There were definitely there were reviewers that liked it that I claimed out. I will say Bill Carter from New York Time from minute one, Bill Carter said, this is the best show I've seen in years, and I love it and I'm in And he was a huge advocate for you. I'm

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That second year we had My name is earle Yes, that show ended up because that show came out hot. We tucked it in behind I remember, and it was around Christmas time. I literally was like a Christmas gift to me where And you know, we had done the deal with Apple if you remember, early on the early iPhone ads or iTunes ads rather featured it in the stores. And then Steve had had the movie It hit. So I'm saying, wait, wait a minute, here, wait a minute,

we're getting a little Steve's now becoming a thing. And look at that where iTunes is going to be a thing, and we're they like us, and we're starting to get little pockets of support and people are starting to talk about it. And I remember waking up and at this point I'm really beginning to be on the ropes. And I wake up one morning in like um going into the holidays, and the show actually grew, It actually grew

and its stabilized. It was a respectable rating, and I honestly I think I don't admit it, but I might have teared up. I mean I really might have teared up. Right. We were certainly at the time, I mean when we was sort of like this this confluence of events, as you said with forty year old virgin Um. Suddenly there's Apple stores and our pictures are are on these new things called, you know, the iPod video, and we're suddenly

the number one show on iTunes. I feel like from the beginning you had the foresight that you know, the way that that ratings happened with the Nielsen boxes. They're looking at households. No one's looking at colleges, no one's looking at dorms in college. There was the larger thing of what I felt culturally is it was the canary in the coal mine for where we are today. Look, there's always been a generational turning of the page where you know, the young people are want the next thing.

I could see that happening with just the sensibility. But then something that really the powers that we were passing by is the platform it's self, the viewing experience itself. It ended up being a really smart thing, like you know what, let's get out in front with this thing that seems to be where it's headed, and that's where

young people wanted to see it. Well, also that you put it on my Space the week before it premiered, like you were already using whatever platform we could get it out on and just or you know, either legally or illegally. I don't even know where it was getting passed around, but it was clear something was happening. Um, so you talk about iTunes, you know, the video iPod on this Christmas episode and it's the first one that goes over ten million. There was something else that happened

during this time, the webisodes, the original online content on NBC. Yeah, and again we these were early days of you know, this webisode thing was starting to bubble up, and some shows were doing the mostly really pretty lame to be honest, but then ours actually weren't lame, right. We did the The Accountants, which was Oscar and Angela and um, and they were becoming a thing and ended up winning and yeah, which was that was another amazing thing, and so that

this kind of content wasn't crappy ancillary thing. In fact, Greg would have now never allowed it to happen because he just wouldn't. He just wouldn't endorse that, but the fact that you're like, wow, these things are really good and people love these and it's becoming a way to stay attached to that, And I just I couldn't nobody could have really predicted that the changes that ultimately came.

The weird thing for me having been at NBC and good Go Back, in my heart of hearts, I still believed and it is, you know, NBC, I mean network television. The year I started in it came or came out here to get into show If You Go Back, was the first year that the Wall Street analysts were beginning to clear network television the dinosaur. So it's death had been premier for you because cable was statistically on the rise. Now obviously decades and decades and decades of billions of

dollars and tremendous cultural impact was created. So I still believed that this platform of NBC, which it did, was still a great place to nurture incredible television. With that said, I think the powers that were there still were believing that it was just one show away from coming back, And in my heart, I said, guys, it's never coming back. That was the thing that I knew it is never going to be what it was, and you have to find what that new thing is and this show is

built for that. Whatever that new thing is, this show is built for that. But even the tone, the scrappy, kind of like bleak looking doc you that tone allowed you to then make a webisode out of it. Some shows you in a webisode you're like, well, that's not the drama I watched, and that's so that's really cheap, bad version. Well, this just felt very organic that, like, well we make it the same way we make the show right, right, right, right, And that felt very viral

and very you know, of the web. And again we were just fumbling our way through, but you got the young audience. They just knew it and caught on and so that's why it thrived, and that's what ultimately, the culture and the landscape has caught up for this thing to then just have this next surge of life. Right, So you were talking about I'm gonna show you a picture from August September of two thousand and six. Yeah,

I have that picture of my office. Yeah, and it's a picture of Kevin being picked up by Rain and John Um and the look on your face and us winning the Primetime Emmy for Best Comedy and a night and what a night, and just your courage too to have stuck with the show and getting recognized now for

that have been pretty special, amazing. You know that that that expression on my face is for me because I did ultimately get fired so to save my job, but I will say that it Uh, you know, I got into this business all I ever want to do as a kid. I no idea what it was. I didn't even know how to get in. I didn't even know

what I wanted to do. But those are the kind of moments that are rare where you're going, we're doing good work with good people, and they're all doing it for the right reasons, and you know that like defying the odds and then having that moment of recognition with people who are also then so gracious. Look, I've worked with really talented people who some people are really talent, they're not so great, and this was just a really

special thing. You know that. The tricky thing about Joe business is a lot of times, uh, you know, you don't want to meet your heroes because what goes on behind the cameras is not really what you pictured that group of people to be in this case. I think it really was, you know, I mean for the most part.

And I would have to say like, yeah, yeah, well you the love and respect that everyone who I talked too comes into this room for you and your fight to keep it on the air, and we all believe being responsible for us having done over two episodes, that's a legacy. I think that. Well, well it's so it's you know, life is full of ironies, you know, and I was always proud of it. It did go on to stay on the air, but NBC then you know, they had then invited me to no longer do that job.

And uh, you know, there were crop of shows I put on that I was proud of, you know, the thirty Rocks and Front Night Lights were on there. Here's we had a crop of good shows that kind of for the next ten years. You know, this is the thing about the Office, you know, the show that that you know was going to be a real problem was one of the only things that endured that was worth hanging onto through that really brutal time for that organization, and and everyone kind of felt like, wow, great run,

great show, Let's move on. And then you get this crazy moment in time where that Canary in the Coal Mine really happened, which is the show that was ahead of its time with the young people who said that's the only thing we're gonna watch. Now there's a new platform called subscription video on demand, and it finds its way to that platform, and those people are now in their forties, and there's new people coming up discovering it for the first time. And this thing has this crazy

way bigger now than it was at any point. And I don't know if you've heard this figure, um, something like fifty two point three billion with a b minutes streamed on Netflix alone and by pretty much any metric that I can figure out, the most watch show in television right now, and we haven't filmed in five to six. Finally finally won the title, right, It's crazy. Yeah, it's finally ended up in the place where it was kind of meant to be. All along, Kevin, thank you again.

It's so good to see. It's great city crossed me. I could I could do two more hours? Oh well, thank you so much. Al Right, guys, Sadly we have to say goodbye to Kevin because he has to get back to I don't know, saving the next best show on television. Probably Now I have to tell you this. I wanted to wait till the end. I had not seen Kevin Riley in many, many years when he sat down with me to do this interview, and I wasn't

sure how it was going to go all right. I didn't know how willing he would be to talk about the show. But at the end I could not have been happier and more touched by his openness, his generosity, and his willingness truly to go back to that time in his life. So thank you, Kevin for taking the time and for being so thoughtful. Um I look forward to seeing you again very soon. To the rest of you, thank you for listening. I appreciate it, and we will. Oh.

I promise you this. We will be back next week, So come join me the office. Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Langley. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer, our producer is Adam Massias, our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor is d A. Goo Topia. My main man in the booth is Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend Creed Bratton,

and the episode was mixed by Seth o Landscape. Adoption of teams from foster care is a topic not enough people know about, and we're here to change that. I'm April Dinnuity, host of the new podcast Navigating Adoption, presented by adopt Us Kids. Each episode brings you compelling, real life adoption stories told by the families that lived them,

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