Jenna Fischer - Pt. 1

led me to want to do this podcast. Conversations that I had over the years with Jenna and recently since I started this podcast. And she obviously is the grand Puma. I don't think that's the right phrase of podcast. Her and Angela obviously a host and produced office Ladies. Jenna and I over the last couple of years have been bonding once again over the office, what the office means today in the cultural zeitgeist, and she and I have

had lengthy conversations about that very subject. And today you're gonna get to be a a fly on the wall. I can't wait for you to hear it. She is one of the most insightful, incisive, smart uh women that I know, and I'm so excited to talk about the thing that we both love, the office. So here she is Jenna Fisher. Bubble and squeak, I love it. Bubble and squeaker, Bubble and squeaker cookie, every moon, lift over the night, befo. Oh are you? What is this? I

don't know? Are you? Oh my gosh, it's happening. You can see. I got all dressed up in my in my hat and puffy coat. I are we beginning? Have we begun? I mean you're ready? Looks Officially, you have papers and in a computer? Do you use a You don't use a computer during my podcast, I use papers and Angel uses notes note cards. See. I can scroll here, I can scroll through things, and I can skip on interesting things. But you're staring right in my eyes while

you do Yeah, so I don't have to do this. Yeah. That's so loud and messy, and I was very distracted by that. It's slightly weird to be staring it out while someone's hand is like scrolling. I won't see it. I won't, I won't. I'm not going to scroll through fifteen pages. Fifteen pages. Listen, there's a lot here. This is a big day. It's a really big day. So two three, what were you doing before the office? I had been at this point finally making a living as

an actor for one year. I'd been in Los Angeles over seven years, but I was finally earning my all of my living from just acting. I had done a pilot. You get paid a lot to do a pilot, so that was a big thing. But the pilot wasn't picked up. So I made a grandiose announcement to my management and agents that I would be quitting acting. I couldn't take it anymore. I couldn't take the rejection. I just was putting my heart out there and I just thought, I'm

going to become a vet technician. I was very sure this is true, this is true. Don't remember this. I looked into it. It's a two year program. It's very full time. And my manager, Naomi oeden Kirk, she said to me, Jenna, will you give us one more year? I mean, you're so close, you really are. You don't understand this is what it is. My acting coach yelled at me and said, don't be stupid. You're doing great. This is what an actor's life is. It's a series

of minor accomplishments and tons of rejection. So this is being an actor. You're doing it. So I said, Okay, I'll do one more year. And that was the year that I got the audition for Pam on the Office. By the way, I was also uh starting down my vet tech. I was working with an animal rescue group and I was taking care of cats in my own home. I was learning how to do things like fluids and

all kinds of medical things. I did not know this. Yeah, I was trapped neutering and releasing cats in the wild word. Then Allison Jones called and asked me to audition for the Office. Now I had been auditioning for Allison Jones for five years. So the first thing I went on a general meeting with Allison and uh it was a great meeting, and Allison called me into audition for a one line role on Freaks and Geeks. I didn't get it.

Then Allison called me to audition for Undeclared, which was a Jet Apatow show, for one line, and I got it. And then that one line led to a second episode where I had two lines. So this was my first recurring role. But this is all you know a while ago. Um I think I also through Allison, got my very first speaking role on television was for Spin City the Charlie Sheen years. So those were some a few of my ways that Allison had been in my life, and she was great. She also called me in for like

a Steven Spielberg mini series that I bombed. It went nowhere. I was horrible, and she said, maybe drama is not your thing, and then yeah, you know it's You're gonna be fine. Don't worry. I'm still going to call you in for other things, but maybe drama is not your thing. So very quickly, my Alison Jones story was I moved to l A right before The Office started, and I knew the British version of the Office very well, and I knew they were doing an American version. I was like,

this is the show that I must be on. And so I went to my agent at the time and I said, Okay, they're looking for people who are not known, and they said, this is a direct quote. They said, they're looking for unknown people, but not like you, unknown, not like totally. But my manager he kept calling and calling and calling, and I went and I met with Phillis then I met with Alison and then I ended

up doing that. Well, so here's the thing that little caveat in the casting call that said known actors only. That was why this was my big break. And this was also why I had been so frustrated and wanted to give up, because I would go through these long audition processes for television shows and I would get as far as the on camera test part, and then they would give it to Alice and Hannagan. Alison Hannagan got like three parts that I was four. She I could

not breakthrough Alice in Hannagan. But I was this unknown actor and I had absolutely nothing to offer a billboard on sunset boulevard. I had, you know, no name recognition. So I couldn't get these big lead parts until the office, when finally the thing that had been working against me was my gift, which was that I was unknown. Right, And now, what do you remember about the day off? Did you see anybody else there any other people that you you knew at the time or that ended up

being cast, or was there anything specific about that day? Well, I've seen those casting sheets that Allison showed us at the end of the series, and I saw all the various well known now well known people who came in to read for the different parts, and none of those people were at my casting call that I remember, but I was. I was just very focused on my audition. Can we play that clip? You have a clip? M hmm.

I hope they get rid of me, because then I might actually get off my ass and do something, because I don't think it's many little girls dreams to grow up and be a receptionist. And I don't know what I'm gonna do, but whatever it is, it's got to be a career move, not just another arbitrary job. And Jim's advice was that it's better to be at the bottom of a ladder that you want to climb than halfway up one you don't. Was that my audition? That's insane?

Do you remember that? I mean? Was that was that you? Or was that was that scripted? That was scripted? So I had a monologue that was scripted that that talking head. I also did a scene. I did the scene where Michael fires Pam and she calls him a jerk, where he fake fires her as a joke, and then I had a just improvised interview with Greg. Greg Daniels was there at my first audition. I went, I guess straight

to producers, as they call it. So Alison and Greg were there, and I remember Greg being very wringing his hands like in like a fun like he couldn't believe he's going to get to start this project and he's so excited, and and I just remember the way he was looking at me. He was very curious, kind of like, she's not doing much? Is she interesting? That's so well, So I'm gonna start talking about myself again, because it's

ultimately everything is about me. My thing was I knew that Kevin was the part that I should have, and Alison Jones is brilliant, but she had me reading for Stanley, and so I read Stanley as if it were Kevin Ah, And then I left the room thinking, well, I'm not sure, and sure enough she ran after me and said, we had this other part that we want you to look at. And so then that's how that happened. Oh that's amazing. Um,

the test process, how is that? Yeah? So normally when you test for a show, you just perform your scenes live in front of a conference room full of executives. But we were told that because the camera was such an essential part of our show, and relating to the camera was so important that they wanted to do an on camera series of test scenes with the final four actors for each part. So they called us into an actual office building for two days and they mixed and

matched us and they taped us doing scenes. And it was great because we were able to give those looks to camera. We were able to react when we noticed the camera was there when we thought it wasn't. It

really was such a huge element of the show. Greg's other argument for doing it that way was that the show was small and its acting and the moments that played the biggest were small moments, and he didn't really feel like auditioning in a conference room was going to give the executives the right feel for what he was going for what the show was. Yeah, totally genius. And now I think you have told this story or this is lore. What do you remember about Your manager calls

you and says you've been cast as Pam. Yes, I think you might be wondering if The first question I asked was is John Krasinski playing Jim and that is true? And they said yes, And I was like, Okay, then we're going to be fine. Because I was a little worried. I was like, if it's not him, I hope I can still do it, because they mad to me with him a lot on our test day, and you know, I was like, this guy's making it real easy for me,

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seventy five dollar credit before March one. Indeed dot Com slash Office deep Dive terms and conditions apply. Need to hire you need Indeed. Now, going back to the pilot, it seems to me that so like your test experience, right, there were a number of things that were unique and different that came from from Ken or Greg or a combination. Um, what are some of the things that you remember that were different in the way that the pilot was shot

from say a normal television show. I remember on the pilot, everyone in the cast had to be hair and makeup ready and at their desks starting at seven thirty am, and we would work quote unquote for thirty minutes. And Ken would walk around with just a camera operator and a boom and record us at our desks. Just be roll of us at our desks, right, And what what did you think of the pilot when you saw it? What did I think of the pilot when I saw I must have watched that pilot a gazillion times. I

have a very embarrassing story about watching them. Okay, go ahead. So um, there was a friend of a friend who was this big deal manager and he really wanted to see the pilot. And I thought, well, I have a DVD of the pilot. Maybe I'll take it to his office. But I was so afraid of it leaking that I insisted that he watched it while I sit across from him. I wouldn't leave the office without the DVD. I was like, well, you can watch it, but you have to watch it

right now while I wait, what was I doing? I was nobody. I don't know. Isn't that so weird? So bizarre? But he really wanted to see it because he everybody in town wanted to see the pilot. Everyone wanted to see it. They were dying to see what this American version of the British show was going to be. Now, Brian, do you remember coming to my house and watching the pilot, sitting on my floor and gathering all together. Yes, I do. Yeah.

Angela was talking to me about it recently and she was like, well, I remember you couldn't get the sound to work on your sound system And I was like really, and she's like yeah. And I remember my dog got out and I had to chase my dog down the street. That's another story, but but that was sort of the beginning of us all gathering together to watch the show every week, which is what we did. That's so I've

totally forgot about that. Um so, so we're in a real office space and we are doing this fake work, b roll stuff, like all of these elements to try to create sort of the ultimate reality, and to me that there's something interesting. Well, what would you say your training was as an act as an actor? Yeah, um, I have a Bachelor of Arts and Theater from a little liberal arts college in rural Missouri called Treuman State. So this job was a dream job for me as

a theater geek. To be able to do this acting exercise where I'm at my desk excuse me very much, but I'm acting, was like, oh, it was everything my training had prepared me for that. Yes, that's and so that was you. And then Rain and I knew each other a little bit from theater as well. And then you've got Angela and Oscar and Steve who are like improv right, and then we've got b J and Craig

Robinson that are stand up guys. Primarily to me, there's there was something about the creation of the ensemble that there were all of these funny people, but they all sort of had a different perspective, and there was something about the reality, sort of the ultra reality of being stuck in this room and doing this work and always being there together that that sort of helped meld us

together in a weird way. Yeah, I think if we had all been improv performers, it would have been a ship show, right, Or if we were all theater people, we would have been taking off all of ourselves too. Seriously, the mix was important, like the way all of the ingredients came together. And I think, you know, another thing that was really unusual was that we were all always at work, Because if you weren't a scene, you were

in the background of a scene. We would joke sometimes we'd be like, do none of us go to the bathroom. We never leave for lunch, like we're always all at our desks. By season six or seven, people were going to the bathroom a little bit more from time to die more more often that um, all right, well, theater nerd. How is Pam different from Jenna? Well, it would not take me three years to tell Jim that I had feelings for him. I mean, I would have dumped Roy

much quicker. I would have been like, who's this guy? Because not just that, I mean when we meet Pam and Jim, they've already been working together for a couple of years, and then it's still three more years after that before they figure some stuff out. I mean, I I'm much more ambitious, much more of an entrepreneurial spirit then Pam. However, the way that we are very similar is that it took me a long time, like Pam,

to figure out how to speak up for myself. Like Pam, I spent many years sitting at a reception desk, wishing that I was doing something else. I literally sat at reception desks and daydreamed about the day that I might be an actor. And Pam sits at that desk and she daydreams about being artistically expressed, and so I could really relate to that, that feeling of I want something more than what I'm doing, but I don't know how

to get it exactly. But I will say that as Jenna, I was taking much more actions in my life to get out of my situation than I think Pam did. It took Pam a lot longer, but she had a lot of more um forces against her than I did. You know, I'm not sure Pam's mom was saying things to her, or her parents were saying things to her like, honey, you can do anything you want to do. If you want to be an artist, you go be an artist. I mean, that was the messaging that I was getting

from my parents. You gotta go for it. Do what you love in life. Even if you aren't successful, you'll be glad you did it. I mean, I had those kind of parents. They didn't support me financially as an actor, but they supported my spirit and they were always there for that PEP talk. And I mean, I don't even know if I can explain how valuable that was. And it was clear to me that Pam didn't have some

of those tools in her toolbox. Do you do you think that Greg and the writing staff, because in a way they were masterful about this, right about finding things, finding things that were true to you the actor, and incorporating them into the story. Do you think that Pam's want and desire to be an artist and to be seen in that way? Do you think that there's anything

that was taken from you? I'm not sure, because if I remember correctly, I feel like the character on the British show had some minor desire to be an artist. Doesn't Doesn't the Tim character give Don some drawing pencils at some point? Am I making that up? I don't remember. I don't know, But um I do know that Greg used to ask me questions about my thoughts, and that that was so unusual. The fact that several of our writers were also actors, so they were down with us,

they were observing us all the time. I mean you, Angela and Oscar single handedly created that insane dynamic between the three of you through I believe, improvisation when you were bored in the background, and so then you've got Mindy, b J and Paul watching you guys, and then taking that back up to the writer's room and flushing it out. It was genius that Greg did it that way. But then more than that, Greg truly believed that no one knew our characters more than we did, and he would

ask us questions all the time. He cared about our opinions. He wanted to know all the time, what do you think Pam would think of this situation? He was always very curious. He also knew that I worked in offices and that I had worked as a receptionist, and he used to ask me questions, what's the craziest thing one

of your boss has ever made you do? And I can't remember if I told the story to him before or after, But there's that episode where Michael is refusing to sign all of his documents until the end of the day. He just keeps putting it off and putting it off and putting it off. And I told Greg I had this boss once that every month, at the end of the month, he had to turn in this boiler plate report and he would put it off and

put it off. And one time he put it off so long I had to drive to l a X because that was the last FedEx pickup, and I was so pissed and Greg was like he loved those stories. He loved whenever we told him stories like that, and they would get used. Okay, so we shoot the pilot, we eventually air. It's striking to me that you started like December ish right of like two thousand three into January.

We shot the pilot in February of two thousand four, and it's thirteen months before anything gets on the air. It's not so I mean, it's well, I've got a story about that. We shot the pilot in March of two thousand four, and my thirtieth birthday was March seven of two thousand four, and I did not invite any of you to my thirtieth birthday party because I assumed

I would never see you again. I was so sure that making the pilot was the end of our show, that it would never get picked up, not because it wasn't good, but because it was so good and so weird and so special that no one would give us a chance. I thought, well, I don't know. All the word on the street was just have fun making your pilot, that's all it'll be. And then similarly, have fun making your next five episodes. They'll probably just be yours. To

own on a DVD Enjoy. So yeah, so then we go back, we make these five episodes in a complete bubble, and then it was not until yeah, like that following what was it? Was it like April of two thousand five they started March of two thousand five they finally start airing, and they had to tell us by May if we were picked up for the second season. Then yeah, crazy,

and we were a disaster, like a ratings disaster. Well, if if it were today, we would be a ratings hit right off the bat, because but yes, we were a ratings disaster. But then you know what happened, and I know exactly why we got picked up. It was that four year old virgin came out. Yeah, four year

old virgin came out. And I can I can hear in my imagination a conference room filled with NBC executives all saying, we aren't going to be the assholes who let Steve Correll, the number one box office comedy start out of his television contract. We're picking up this show for six episodes of season two. Again, six episode odes is all we got for season two. But then they really did Taylor the show more to Steve more to what Steve would be as Michael rather than um as

inspired by David Brent. So what do you remember. What differences do you remember between one and two, like artistic changes, artistic changes. I think the biggest thing I noticed was when we started season two, Steve had lost like what twenty pounds are more? I don't know. He was so fit because he had gotten in shape for four year old virgin. And they started allowing the character of Michael to be more sympathetic. They would let him break our

heart a little bit. Even in the Dundees, for example, you see a bunch of people heckel Michael, and then you see the people in the office stand up for Michael. And in the first season none of us ever stood up for Michael. We all just hated Michael. But they started to allow Steve to display vulnerability, which he's so good at. But then also you have an episode in season two, like the Client, where you see Michael start out as what seems like a total buffoon and turn

into a masterful salesperson. Right, you see a reason that he actually has this job. Yes, And I think those were differences. In the first season we just really leaned into his mean spirited buffoonery, the ways he irritated us, but now in season two we were bringing out sprinklings

of these very redeeming qualities in him. Or even the Halloween episode in season two where at the very end, after he's had this horrible day of having to fire someone, you see him hand out candy to these little kids. It makes me cry every time I watch it every time. Or the end of Office Olympics where he's crying because everyone is so genuinely applauding for his purchase of a condo.

These little moments in each episode, there seem to be one in each episode that was very different from season one. Right um season two, everything everything changed, Right, so we have six episodes, and then we do six episodes, and then didn't we get four more? And then three more, and then two? And then what I remember very clearly was sometime after the New year, they said, okay, you can finish two, and then within two weeks we had an order for season three, a full order. I did

not remember that. Yes I do. Do you think I'm wrong? No, I don't, You're wrong. I always wondered, because to me, I did not feel like I had job security until Steve won the Golden Globe. Well there was that, and then there was iTunes. Yeah, they started doing the video iPods. The Christmas episode went to number one like that, and the Christmas episode on TV was our highest rated show. So it was like, you know, from December to January suddenly things changed. And then after season two we won

the Emmy. Yes, is there anything specific about that night that you remember? I remember that Emmy's because at this point now we had become a bit of a critical darling. So in the beginning, the critics hated us and they only compared us to the British show. And then we had turned them around now in time for this Emmy Awards, and so being at these awards, we were the new

kids on the block. We were super fresh. The critics loved us, but we were still not a front runner to win, and so it was a complete surprise when we won. Many people there had no idea who we were. They didn't recognize us. It's funny, I remember, um. I remember running into the cast of Scrubs and they were like the big deal guys and we were the newbies and they were super nice to us, and I was like, oh my gosh, it's Scrubs. Cut to like eight years later.

I remember then being at an awards show and running into the next batch, the new freshman class of TV, and I remember thinking, Oh, I'm Scrubs. Now, we're Scrubs. We're We're like the kids who've been around the block a few times. Totally. See mine wasn't mine was Porsche DROSSI Oh, you ran into at the first Emmy super nice, so great. Yes, And that's what I thought. UM. Going back a little bit. Another thing that I think made us really unique, um and also sort of that ultra

realism was Scratton. Yeah, and making the decision for it to be Scranton. Well, and I know that they did a lot of research when it came to just the things that were around the office, local radio stations, hers potato chips from Pennsylvania, we're in our vending machine, really creating this realism, the Lackawanna County, um coal mine, things like that, you know, working all that stuff into the show. I know it really always broke Greg's heart that we

never shot an episode in Scranton. Every year they would toy with the idea of taking us there, and it was just always cost prohibitive. I know Greg's dream was that we would shoot the St. Patrick's Day parade. This is so crazy that you're saying this. That was literally when asked my biggest regret, that was it. Yeah, I would say the same. My biggest regret was that we

never shot in Scranton. But the city of Scranton. I remember one year they were really looking into this parade idea, and they agreed to move their parade two months earlier, you know, because we would have to shoot before St. Patrick's Day. So they were going to have their St. Patrick's Day parade in January, and they just couldn't figure out, cost wise how to get the entire cast and crew there.

Right to me, it's it's this weird like dichotomy thing where even though it was about Scratton where very few people had gone right on a national scale, like people don't know those places, but having those details sprinkled into me somehow translated to making it more universal. I absolutely agree with you. I think as a person who grew up in St. Louis, Missouri, me and other people who grew up there, we so identify our city as part of us, and so it made it more universally real

that we identified so strongly with the city. We were in Scranton, and I think that's true of a lot of people where you grow up. Right. No, absolutely, there's just I love that city and there's something about my connection to that city. Do you remember the I can't remember the year, but the presidential election right where everybody who was running somehow suddenly everybody was from Scranton, right, like Joe Biden, Scranton connection, Hillary Clinton. They were all

trying to get into the office. Totally, it was all like, oh yeah in Scranton, Pennsylvania. I used to go and visit Grandma and she would you know. It was this crazy like became this sort of cultural touchstone, like the heart of the nation is located in Scranton, Pennsylvania. I love it. Um we talked about there was an interesting thing where, you know, the ultimate question is why the show is what it is out, which will examine in a minute. But it seems like we were writing this

digital wave right like the show started. We're going to do a show about a dying industry, and at the same time that we're doing a show about a dying industry, the technological advances we end up writing this wave. Well, early on you might remember a bunch of us were on MySpace. Yes we're going to discuss We're well, Angela, b J and I and you did as well. We had these MySpace pages that were on our computers while we were in scenes, and we were interacting with people

on my Space. We were blogging, but we were also I would type things to people like an instant message, like Hey, when you watch the such and such episode in this scene, you'll know I was typing this to you. And we just it was like before Twitter, before Instagram, before social media. It was really before Facebook. My Space was the place that there was this social interaction totally. And then there was iTunes that was huge for us.

And then there were the webisodes, the first show that did that online content and obviously sort of culminating in in Netflix. How do you think that the that those things helped us either reach an audience or well, I think it connected people deeply to the show. And to have the actors of the TV show that you really love interacting with you, answering your questions, caring as much as you do, it kind of makes you feel like you're part of it. In a more real, intimate way,

and also it was real. That connection was real. There would be times when the writers and Greg would read some Twitter feedback about an episode or a storyline, and it did affect things going forward. Give me my Remote I think was a website to where give me my remote? Yeah? Yeah, all of the stuff. Yes, the idea of these bloggers.

We had a bunch of fan sites. We had Office Tally dot com run by Jenny tan and this gal, Jenny did such a good job of running this website that she would we would invite her to visit the set and give her exclusives and things. And then there was Northern Attack that was based on that line from Diversity Day as Abraham Lincoln said, I will attack you with the North Northern Attack. I love Northern, so give

me my remote. Northern Attack. All of these TV websites and bloggers people started blogging about us, and we were cool, right, like, oh no, totally yeah. And so you were part of something, Yeah, you were part of something. You were part of a movement in a way, and and our show was part of that movement. I think, all right, we're gonna pause there for now, but we are going to be back with more Jenna, Oh my gosh, it's so good. It's so good. I'm gonna make you wait for it until then.

Thank you for listening, all of you, and have have a fantastic week. The Office. Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Langley. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer, our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor is Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by Seth Olandsky