Debbie Pierce & Kim Ferry

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your podcasts. I'm Sarah Wendell and for close to twenty years, I've been a wildly recognized expert in the world of romance, and I'm Alicia Ry, best selling author of over twenty romance novels. In producing I Heart's new romance podcast, Love Struck Daily. Every day we deliver a new love story straight to your headphones. Real life love stories guaranteed to bring all the fields. A little bit of sexy, a little bit of danger, and a lot of heart. Who

doesn't need more love like this? Who wants to go on a first date with me? On Instagram Live? Are you serious? Real life fairy tale? Right there? Badass lady pirate and Mary takes her shirt off. Let me show you Pirate style and it's just off and for goodness sakes, just kiss already. Listen to Love Struck Daily on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm in love with you. I'm Emilia on this podcast, I'm taking you on a search, a search

for love. Hard working Latina, But there were the reasons I felt like I couldn't always beat myself. My mom's in prison. This Crumbs my love story. It's a show about the things we set up for and the bits of ourselves that make us who we are. Listen to Crumbs on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Debbie Peers and I was Key Hairstylists on the office. I'm Kim Ferry, and I was the department head for the office. Hello, everybody,

You're gonna love this one. Uh. First off, welcome to another installment of the Office Deep Dive. I am your host, Brian Baumgartner. The studio is crowded today, people, I am bringing you my conversation with the other half of our hair and makeup crew, the hair department of the Office. Now, if you haven't already, go listen to my interview with the office is head makeup artist Laverne Karacuzzi, because we

make a few references to that conversation here. But then be sure to come right back to hear more fascinating behind the scenes stories from my very good friends Debbie Pierce and Kim Ferry. Now, having Debbie and Kim in the studio, it was like it was like getting a warm hug. I mean, when you think about it, I spent an entire decade of my life working with the two of them, and they really are extraordinary people to

work with. They brought a brand new perspective to the beauty of the office conversation Like you won't believe how long it took to make sure Meredith's bald cap looked well bald and and the thought that went into Pam's hair evolution. I truly had no idea the care and concern that these women gave not only to the show, the plot, the crew, but but also to each other in really difficult times of their lives. It's nothing short

of astounding. We were lucky to have them on set then, and well we're so lucky to have them on the podcast now. Now. Maybe that's enough tuting of their horns for now. I think our conversation really speaks for itself. So get ready to be blown away, like like the hair dryer blown away anyway. The wonderful geniuses that made up the hair department of the office, Debbie Pierce and Kim Ferry Bubble I love it, bubb Bubble and Squeaker Cookie. Every moon lift over from the nut be that? What is?

Oh my god, it's so good to see. Oh my god, how are you. I'm good. I'm good. Oh my gosh. Thank you guys so much, Thank you. It's fun to get together. Man, look at you. I love the shirt. Well done, very well done. Um you want point today? This has been so great? Are you kidding me? I saw Laverne yesterday, Yes, yes. Um, I mean so many writers that are all now running their own world. I'm sure Mike Sure and Brent Forrester, Claire Scanlon and Jenna Angela and Rain We've done so it's just so fun

to see everybody. I know. But it's it's amazing. Um. I was out and I had my jacket on that we got season five or six or something, and all of a sudden, I was in a restaurant and this girl said, oh, I love your jacket. I said, do you watch the show? Oh? Yes, we love the Office. It was a whole new generation, right, I mean anywhere from thirteen to thirty five. I mean, it's it's a whole new group of people. Why do you think that is?

I don't know. I think they just identified with the characters, and uh, that is on Netflix now and it's reruns and watch the series. So I just think they get a character that they really like and and they identify with them and it just has snowballed. It's it's amazing. Yeah. I mean we have been talking about and part of what I'm going back and looking at is, you know, we were the top scripted show on NBC for a long time, but the show now is bigger than it

was then through Netflix. I'm just like, what, I don't know, what do you think? Just people identifying with the characters. Yeah, I just season two it hit its prime. Yeah, that's when it really did. It did, and they just wanted to see what was Steve gonna do next? And the whole cast of characters. Really, the whole cast of characters, you never know what they're gonna do or say no. Because we were just laughing before he came in talking

about Kim. When she called me about the show, she said, Debbie, UM, you know I'm going to do this little show called The Office. You know, it's just about five um actors, you know, a couple of girls in the so simple, you know, you know, can what you think? Come and join me in and let's do this. I said, okay, okay, I'll call you tomorrow. So I didn't. I said, yeah, Kim, I'd like to do that. I'd like to do that with you. And then this little show blew up into

this mega It was that hit. Yeah. So you said the show hit its prime in season two? Is that because that's when you guys came on it. Is it your responsible right and you know, we didn't have any budget either. We were so do you remember we were literally throwing like a can of hair sprayed to each other across like all the actors. Do you remember that we had no budget. We supplies and own, right, and then Kim would go to set and I would be in the trailers, so I had to do all the

guest actors and everything body that came back. So all of a sudden, we looked at each other set, Uh, this is getting to be bigger then we thought. So, you know, then after you know, see with the season three or four that we were able to get really got another additional persition because it was kind of our one.

Remember we would take breaks to we would sat down and we didn't know if the show was going to come back, and see they'd be like, okay, hey we got another six, let's just do these six right, great, Okay, we'll be back great, and then it would sat down again and it was really confusing those first step first season two, season two, Yeah, but it made it through.

That must have been hard from a crew perspective to to you know, like we did that first six of season two and then we went away and we had no idea if we were coming back, you know, and then and and that's real tricky because people need to know where their money is going to come from, of course, and so you get scared that you lose your crew because you know, you don't want people go to other the shows, you know and stuff. But we were blessed.

We were blessed. We kept our crew pretty much together. I mean, there were a few people that had to leave and stuff, but we were blessed all the way to the end. Yeah, what do you think was so we were going for a very realistic look, moving away from what television was at that time, if you think about friends and stuff was did that present challenges or did that make it easier? Yeah? No, presented challenges, especially

for me. Well, you know both of us want to do yeah, yeah, yeah, so we both wanted worked in salons, you know, prior to getting into film television. But um, you know, when you see a person and something looks array, you know, out of out of whack and stuff, you immediately want to go over there and do something. And also with the makeup, I'm sure the verrant probably told you you want to at least haven't had a little colitude a person and everything. So yeah, it presents a challenge.

And so it was funny because remember we didn't the second season though you were all having your own makeup and your own stuff. They we weren't touching them. You're forgetting because they were getting their own touch ups at their own station and they had it there and we would be sitting waiting. We would not go in that second season because that's that was per pul Fig, per Greg Daniel. But that was hard that, yeah, that you don't.

It was you guys that were touching yourself up and we would see you at because the season three, okay, season three we were able to then actually go in and start doing touch ups on you. But season two it was very I remember going in different probably wasn't supposed to, but I know you did not did not

go in season two. It did not okay, I remember, oh my gosh, yeah, and I um I remember Ken Koppas was talking to me about He said that there was and this was before you, but on the on the pilot and moving for as they were sort of establishing the look. And Ken went to all of the heads of department and said anything that you would get fired on on some other show are the things that

we want. So like if a hair is out of place, and if a lighting isn't quite right, if we don't have a perfect frame shot on an actor, that's all good. We want those little mistakes to make it, you know, feel more real. Yeah, and that's kind of what you were told to write, like the hair did not have to match. Yeah, I mean originally I was offered the first six episodes, but I was still working on another show,

so I couldn't do it. But I wish, I wish, Yeah, I just I couldn't because when we came in second season, everything changed. The whole look of the cast, yeah changed. Well. Steve, he was the first severe on that first season, and Kim softened him up. It looked great. Yeah, so what was the direction. We've talked a lot about that about you know, feeling like if we were a show that's going to go on for longer than a season or two. Yeah, that Michael, we needed to find some redeeming values. And

then they started writing in short ways and his look changed. Well. He also he had gone through you know, the virgin so he basically had lost a lot of weight too, and looked a bit different than we did it first. But I remember coming in and having a meeting with him and in the trailer actually and just discussing with him. You know, I watched the first six episodes when I knew I was going to get the second season, and I told him, I really, you know, they wanted him

to look like Gordon Gecko. That was like his look. Technically, that's what they designed it for, Gray slick, but it was too for me. It was too greasy and too slick and and not flattering and severe. Right, So I told him, like, I really want to make a big change,

and I want to discuss it with you. And I did that pretty much with a lot of the actors, just kind of skiing them, you know, how do you feel and what do you want and then let's incorporate this and then I can pitch it to Greg because he did have the final say over looks and things. And he was really great though. I mean, he would always listen to us, and if we really wanted to push one kind of look or one certain thing, it was okay, and he would always come around. So that

was great. I really appreciated his thought. Yeah, So doing that, trying to create that very sort of realistic look. Ultimately, it is more difficult than sort of that high fashion. I don't know, I don't know. It was easy, it was casual. It was also look like real people, so they can be a little dishovel. I mean, it's almost easier because you're not doing the high end glam stuff. We're not putting on these you know, when I was doing Pretty liars like they have all this hair, you

have this makeup, you have this wardrobe. We didn't really have that, so it wasn't except when we do special shows. Yeah, when we did the Halloween episodes. Halloween episodes were always tricky, but yeah, I loved it though. I did every single week on that show higher time. Yeah, and I remember even the Halloween episodes. If you think of other shows that have Halloween episodes, the makeup, the hair, like everything

should look perfect. Right. But Greg, I remember there was a discussion about him saying, well, but these are real people who are dressing up for their office, so it's not going to look perfect. Correct. He was very adamant about that. These aren't people that are going to spend huge amounts of money. They just want to throw like a cheap He's like, make sure it's a cheap, simple wig that someone would buy office, you know, a basic store.

It's not like a whole thing. Although we got a little more into that when you know, Rain and Creed and they started. We started with the wigs, and it got a little better as we went further. But in the beginning, yeah, definitely, And now what did you show and tells? For him? I would walk upstairs, I would present the whigs because he would give me an idea of you know, I want you know, Mindy to have this. I want you know, Rain to have this um and he would give me some ideas to go with and

then I would present it to him. So I would carry it up and go to the writers or I try to make sure not many writers were in there, so that it was just kind of him and I wouldn't get too many beings because it gets lost. But it was great that the collaboration was fun and they were always open to it, and it was fun to be in there and watch them like laugh at this stuff and be like, oh, that's gonna be so great or it's gonna be so good on them. It was fun.

Do you feel there was more collaboration on the office than other shows. Yes, absolutely. I think what I love about Greg is that he even if he wanted to discuss it, like he would listen and he would hear your side of it. It wasn't in other shows where they're just like, no, we want it like this. So, you know, he's such a kind person. And he would kind of stroll into our trailers sometimes and just wander around,

which I love. And we were doing right and I'd be like anything, He's like no, and he just like walked through, like I need a haircut or anything. Sure, great, he's adelic sometimes he just you know, randomly come in. But yes, he's such a good person. But he trusts the people that he hired, and that's what I respect, and that's what I really appreciated about him. Yeah. He it's what do they say, what's the He's smart enough to know what he doesn't know, you know, like he

you know, like and get the people that do. Yes. Have you said that quote about Stephen Way too? What was it? Okay, this is a great speed of the leader is the speed of the game. I tell Steve that my girlfriend gave me that quote, um, meaning that the person that is upfront, is who has the you know, the authority and the wherewithal umility, responsibility, our leader, they're they're the leaders, and then the gang follows. So whoever is upfront, they're going to look at that person. That's

what keeps us together, the leader. Yeah. Do you think Steve was a good leader? Yeah? I do. Great leader, a great leader. So, Debbie, when Steve laught, I was reminded a lot of people went around from different departments and told stories about Steve. And three different people have told me one story, which was the story that you told, Um, it was about him. You were in a van. Yes, Uh, Steve was quite a gentleman and Um at that time, nobody really knew. But I was going through a situation

with my hip. I was in a lot of pain and getting up and down on the van was very hard for me, and so UM Kim and all the games, you know, they kind of knew, and so they would let me sit in the front when we would go on on location and stuff. So this one day, UM, we were all gathering into the van. Um, Steve and some of the actors and I went to proceed to go in the back, and he looked at me. He goes, Abby, where are you going? I said, well, I'm letting you say.

He said, you go and take that seat, and I just, um, I just thought that was such a kind thing, because here is he's the star of the show. And he always did. He would stand there at that van. He would hold the door and help us in the van. You know, I said, some mama's raised a nice young man.

But that's how he was, right. Yeah, but he did that with everybody, even you know what I mean, even just like he would wait and some other people would just go to their trailers, but he always stood there and every single woman down, every single man with him. And yes, so that meant so much to me. And it was funny because he came back, I think it was towards the end and um, he said, how are you doing, Debby? I said, I'm doing fine. Since I've seen you got a new hips bionic nowmers and since

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promised that he could take the mob down. I've spent the past year trying to figure out why he flipped and what he was really after. From my perspective, Bob was too good to be true. There's got to be something wrong with this. I wouldn't trust that guy. He looks like a little scumbag layer stool Pidgeon. He looked like what he was, or rat. I can say with all certainty I think he's a hero because he didn't have to do what he did, and he did it anyway.

The moment I put the wire around the first time, my life was over. If it ever got out, they would kill me in a heartbeat. Listen to deep Cover on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I was trying into Laverne about what people don't realize is the hair and makeup trailer is what is what is it is the trick. It is the place where everybody comes. Um, you can make a break a show in the makeup and hair trail. I'm serious. You can make or break a show, sir.

Well because the way the environment is created. The way the environment is created because when actors come in in the morning, that early in the morning, it has to be calm and a safe place that they know they can come in. They can you know, study their lines, they can just relax and you as you work, you get to know your actors. You get to know when

they're feeling okay and when they're not. You get to know when you can talk to them and laugh and joke, and you get to know when you need to shut up and don't say not exactly walk away and you need to walk away, I mean, or you know, just give them their space. Right So I told do so that one time on another show. I said, Um, you know,

you gotta know that it starts right in here. We create an atmosphere and give them a place of safe, a safe place, and the kind place we might play music that's soothing so that they can get into character and give them the performance that you need. You know, it's very interesting. I haven't really thought about this before, but just hearing you talk, just go with me for

a second. Maybe this is bad, but when you hear some of what you're saying, the thing that is occurring to me is that you don't realize that as an actor you're being poked and prodded kind of for twelve hours a day. Yeah, Like, there's no in in no other sort of business. Are there people up in your business business? Right? For it's like unzip your pants, take off your pants, let's run this wire up your leg,

onto your chest, us onto your skin. You know, someone's touching your face and touching your hand, right, And there are times where like you're trying to work on a scene, you're trying to do something and it's just like poke poke, poke poke, And so yeah, like the necessity to have an environment, especially first time that we're just getting ready,

like like sort of like stay away jackals. Let's you know, let's at least start the day we have to do these things, but let's try to create an environment that doesn't create sort of high stress and high anxiety from the very beginning. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Well will you try to feel your actors and when you go you might look up an Brian, do you need anything? And you'll say no, and I'll say okay, back off and

go to the next person. You know, So we try to respect that because we know that that is a thing where somebody's coming at you all the time. Sometimes it's like okay, I need a break here, right, yeah, And it's especially I would say hot Nuity photos too. I know we had that thing up there. You'd have to stand there with all four sides, a thing that we have to do, and I know it's got to be annoying when you're we do, but we have to do our job too, because this is the stuff we

have to submit. This is we have to turn in. This is going to be a record, because sometimes it is the question was that curl this way? Or was it that? And then that's come on. But basically, you guys were really, really good. I mean you were very patient. And I went to another show and uh no no, no, no, no no no. Somebody told me Phillis was on another show, and um she went in and the guy said, I need to take your picture. Phillis got up there, she said,

turn around. The guy said, Dabby. She did all four sides. It was hilarious. Did Phillis just into She didn't, She didn't squawk about that's because we had to do that. Yeah. Well, we had such a large cast, a large and it just get up bigger and bigger. This season, it just kept up getting bigger and bigger and bigger. So so many people to track and have to take care of. Yes, indeed, we had to keep a book. Yeah, Laverne talked about

the battle plan that was important every day. That is something that the eighties would make for us, and we'd have basically a chart and it would have like at the top of it it would be you know, Kim and then who I do, and then Debbie and who she does down the line, and then then there was a makeup side as well, so we could really know and understand who was going where at what time because it was so many people getting through the work first, and then when it was like everybody had to be

at ona set, well that was you know, we had to with every through. Yeah, but we got him through. We did all the time. The time we did who were the actors that you principally took care of. Um, I did Steve, John, Jenna, Angela, b J, Mindy and Mike Sure yeah he was yeah yeah. And then you and I did Phillis, I did you, I did um Kate, Oscar and Leslie Yea and then Guest split them up. I loved I bet you did. Everybody loved it. Address You're Everyone was like Debbie. You know, he was British Debbie.

His hair is fine. Why are you still messing with his hair? Funny, little Debbie, Debbie, get your hands, get your hand off dresses hair, Debbie, It's fine, pashion. He he was a nice guy. He was really a nice guy. Um, but you took care of you both worked on it. But kind of the biggest I think I can't think of really anything bigger. Hair additions throughout the series became Kevin's Tupay. I almost brought that today. Yeah, I thought about it because it's in my storage. You know, I'm

literally driving here I go. Yes, I should have gone, and I would have like presented it to you so you could pet it one more time. I'll bring it back for you. Yes, monumental. Yeah, I have a Oh I just posted a picture on my Instagram. Hold on, but it's like the picture of you when I was first trying it on, you remember, and Jenna and Oscar came up and they're just like they were making fun of you, and we were like they were heckling him, but he was standing strong. He was standing strong. This

whole thing us. I think it was supposed to be just a gag for the wedding. Yes, it was a gig, and then it came back, came back. Um, so you guys come in season two. We're struggling. We're struggling. Then at the end of that season we get picked up fairly early for a full third season and The Office

wins the Emmy for Best Comedy. Do you remember those feelings or did you feel like, well, we've got job security now, or you know what was the what was the feeling around there as we shifted from a little engine that maybe do you remember? Um? I remember this because this was when for the Emmy's all the girls came in that day to the trailer and they had cheese and crackers and we had champagne and it was us doing them in our trailer where you know, everyone

else is going too high. End, you know, salons and they're probably getting everything done, but all the girls wanted to be together and it was so sweet. It was such a fun morning and it was just us doing their hair and everyone was excited and they were happy and it was getting and were It was amazing. It was amazing, and they were like eating and drinking. We were doing champagne and we're like, wow, what if you guys like you're gonna win, We're gonna win. It's gonna happen.

And then it did. And then that we saw the pictures and it was just what a great moment. It was like a victory for our little show that could really Yeah, I totally forgot about that. All the ladies came and in the trail, like literally in the trailer. In the trailer. Yeah, yeah they did. That's really good. And then things went well for a while and then there was the strike. Yes, what are your memories of

that time? Well, it was you know, everybody was like up in the air about whether we're going to have jobs or not. And uh, we we went down for what like well, yeah it did, um. But the first remember the first day we didn't want to cross because the writers were there literally the whole cast um as we were standing and I remember b J, you know, you had the fence right that we had, and he was on the other side of it, and I was like, I don't want to cross either. I'm union where He's

like it's okay. I'm like, it's not okay. And I remember getting choked up, like I don't want to do this to you. You guys are my family, Like I don't want to pass. And he said no, look they're telling you to cross. And so we sat on the stage and just waited. We just waited because there was nothing else we could do. If I think about six seven hours later, they said you can go home. I remember we went. I think that I never got in

hair and makeup. I guess there were a couple of talking heads that were shot that could be shot, but it wasn't. No, There wasn't much no. And I remember being there as well because at a certain point we weren't sure what was happening. Word so awkward. Yeah, but you know, as a mom of two young kids and I was the person supporting my household, um, it was terrifying. But I will never forget Greg Daniels and his wife writing a check. Remember that for a thousand dollars every thousand,

twelve hundred, every family, every family. I was floor because that made such a difference to my household. I said. I went to the mail that day, and uh, you know, people were sending Christmas cards and stuff, and so I looked at the cards and then I saw this card from Craig Daniels. I'm going, oh, isn't that nice? And so I opened up the card and I'm reading and then I see this check. And I didn't. I didn't really look at it really clearly at first, you know,

and I, oh, how sweet. I thought it was a hundred dollars. I looked at and I started Catholic zeroes, and I said, oh my god, I'm telling you. I almost literally beat on myself. I was like, I was like, oh my god, I could not believe it. But I told that story to quite a few of my friends who worked on other shows, and they were like, are

you kidding me? I said no, they, I said, the producer and the actors, because you guys came after the strike was over, when we came back, and you gave us like two thousand dollars a piece to the whole crew that wasn't heard of, that was simply unheard of. It was such a blessing to all of us because many people had at least like him, and they needed to know they had some sucks sort of security and

what what they were gonna do? I mean because other shows were down also, So this was such a blessing. And uh, well because we were family. Yeah at that point. That's true. Family, That's absolutely true. Yeah, you felt it. I mean, Greg, you know the caterers and what show has the same caterers for nine years? Eventually someone's like we did, right, guys, we love to burn in a good way, right. But I mean, he he didn't ever want to change it up. He had loyalty to everyone

who was there. Yeah he did, Yeah, he did. Those guys were so good. We ate well. They they would even remember. They would put up on our like if you they knew that you liked a certain thing they made like a name of my breedo or something. True. That's true, that's true. I still have pictures of those menus. That's true. That's right. And we had the best craft

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of the veins of this sleepy town. This New Y a mystery from writer director Lauren Chippen, is an audio drama with heart and wit that involves the audience in a way no fiction podcast ever has. Listen to Maxie Miles and the iHeart Radio, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your favorite shows. You started talking about this a little before, but just how hair changed over over the course of the show, like specifically with Pam or with Kelly What we Are The decisions that were made, were

you softening Pam or what happened? It depended on what episode we were doing. Again, Originally in the beginning they were supposed to be very simple, very plain, you know, regular day people. But as some people became producers of the show, then they had an actual say more in

what I could do for them. So, um, you'll see the evolution of you know, Pam's hair for instance, where she was very kind of messy and it was a scrunchy thing and kind of little back, right, yeah, and she had that clip in all the time, and then and then literally in season two and I remember her talking about this because I listened to her podcast, but she said, you know, Kim was so happy for the first time ever she was able to have all of her hair down, which was true because we had had it,

you know, in a clip with the scrunchet and it was just and she has this natural curl and we got to kind of smooth it out and make it a little more fun and a little more designed. And the same thing with Angela. You know, Originally her character was she's supposed to be very severe, she's very uptight, she doesn't really care as much. She just wants, you know,

she's all business. So that was true in the first few but then as that evolved as well, then she had her hair in a ponytail, and then sometimes she'd have it down and I did the Angela braid on her, which was really fun, and that little headband braid, and and so she got to be a little softer, but

also her character was softening. So I think it kind of played with how they, you know, what their direction was, as they're falling in love with different people, or their meeting new people or kind of that course of it just going forward. But um, and the same thing with Steve when I first met him, and we changed his hair immediately, and he was really on board too, so that kind of stayed and he kind of kept that same look for him the whole time. But again there

were a lot of hair gags. There was gum and his hair. I remember that day. I had to have peanut butter on my hands for twelve hours and it was just insane. So, you know, every gag had its thing. And even the big thing with with Kate and having her head shaved, that was four weeks of prep for me because I had to plan you know, she needed to be bald, so we needed a specialist and then he ended up, you know, doing the ball cap for her.

But I had to build hair pieces for her, and we had to do tests, and we had to do another test and then a third test and then remember you guys were like grabbing the hair, and you know, I had to teach her and I had to shave um. I had to get a certain clipper, and then I had to modify the clipper just so it wouldn't tear if she was pushing it back because it was so thin, so you have to make sure it's not going to tear. Like there was so many variables to that. It was

four weeks of prep just for that gag. But everybody thought she actually shaved her head, which it was pretty great, So pretty great, and you know and and and Kate has really healthy and it so much so much to make that flat. It took me forty five minutes to do the actual rap to get her head underneath. And then yeah, it was a lot, which was fun. Though I loved that stuff. I love that Greg would challenge me and he was happy each time, which was great.

So right, was there ever any discussion about Pam's hair changing based on where she was with her relationship with Jim? Yes? Yes, absolutely, what about that? As she was kind of they were kind of falling for each other. She got a lot more softer, so we did. We got rid of all her natural curl and we started doing like blow dries, and then we started doing curls and waves and something very soft because she was kind of falling in love with this person and same thing for him, so it

definitely changed for her at that point. Right, Um, so did you leave before the end? I sadly did a few days. Um, because as the show was ending, right, Greg kept adding and then he added another week, and then he added another week. And what I had set up was that I was going to be going to show Pretty Little Liars actually, and I had gotten that job, but it was literally like a month and a half away.

So I thought, well, fine, I'll take a little time off, you know, and then I'll just top on this other show. And then he like booked another week and I'm like, well, and I even told production too, I you know, this is getting nervous, because then it pushed again and I was like, wow, this is really getting close, and I'm a little nervous, but they're like, no, no, no, it's never going to go over that. And then I remember literally the Sunday night that we were wrapping or I wrapped,

we still had a couple more days. It was like three more days or something. I think you did, I don't remember, but um, I was devastated because I really wanted to be there. That was my show. I lived that show for ten years basically, you know, on and off with the seasons that we would go down a little bit. Yeah, it was really hard for me to not be there those last few days, and I know that it was a whole thing with everyone there and everyone came back, and I felt really left out. I'm

not gonna lie. It was sad. Oh yeah, yeah, because that was I mean, I lived that show for so long and it was all of my friends, and I wish I could have been there. I know, Debbie took over and she ran it, you know, those last few days,

and I knew she would do a great job. But it was really hard because I then, you know, started Sunday night, I rapped, I think it was like twelve thirty at night, and then Monday morning I went in at seven am to load into the next trailer and worked you know that week as a prep week, and then when right into that show, so I didn't get a break but I really hate that I missed those last few days. But they would send me pictures and

they were communicating Yeah awesome. I mean to see a show that you've been with all that many years and your baby, it was your baby. Yeah. I mean we were there from the beginning and uh, you know, people came, people went, but we were still there and to see it all come to an end that it was just

kind of heart wrenching. It. Yeah, my kids would come and visit and I had that picnic table in the back, if you remember, because I would just want to sit with them privately, and every time all the actors and more, I'm like, no, no, no, no, you know, you know, like I don't. They would come up, they would pick up the kids, they would take them to craft service and it was so sweet, like it was such a great I don't know if you'll ever have another show

like that. I really I don't know, do you. I mean, it was such a different show than anything I've ever been on. And I still am in touch with Angela. You know, I'm hopefully going to go to their podcast and hang with them for a minute. But you know, it was so nice to see Creed in Vegas and then I've I've seen Kate doing some shows and was

still in touch and still there. You know, Um, I did this crazy show for Hulu Housewives, yeah and the kidding, and I went and uh, they were telling me who was going to be on it, and I saw Angela and so I said, well, you know, we're not going to tell it until we had to meet with the actors. And so when I walked in, face just lit dbny and that we hugged each other. It was just wonderful. She said, I didn't know you were going to be here.

It was a good surprise, and so we were able to you know, work everything out and it was just you know, like, oh, home Week, it's great. Hey, it's Jake Halpern here. If you've ever wondered what it's like to make a true crime podcast like deep Cover, well now's your chance to find out. Join me and my friend Dana Goodyear, who's the host of Pushkin's Lost Hills podcast, on March sixte for a digital conversation on true crime storytelling.

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all covered. The Earnier Leisure podcast is available now. Listen to Earnier Leisure on the Black Effect podcast Network. I heart Radio, app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Oh my gosh, I um yeah, it's just to me, it's crazy like these I mean ordinary is a nice way to say it, but a lot of ordinary looking people on this show, middle aged office workers, even though the characters are universal. The fact that so many kids are into it. Now, my kids are into this show.

Now you know how weird that is for me. They love has a dunder Miff Flinn shirt. He has dunder mi Flynn pants. Like he says, like, oh my god. All my friends and they love that show, Like you know, it makes me kind of cool. Yes, you are how old? He's fifteen and he's four now four Connor just passed me. It's not they were yeah, they were tiny. Do they remember anything about being there? They remember craft service? Okay, right, well that makes sense. Yeah, that's where they can get

All my friends. Teenagers and young adult are into it, all of them. Yeah. Yeah, and you're like you said, if you wear anything it has like my jacket or I have my chat onto something. People walk out there like right on you know, yeah, they stopped you and stuff. I know, we did the thing out and uh we were at the country club somewhere in West l As.

It was a golf thing, yes, remember remember yes, yes, and so we were going back and forth and they were huge crowds of young people, teenagers that were like so excited about the show. Yeah. Yeah, even then it appealed to yes, its young parents though, and yeah, I think it appears that it appeals I'm telling you from thirteen on up. Is your thirteen year old into it or more than sixteen? He was watching it for a while, but then he's kind of switched into his mother stuff,

so he goes back to it. But yeah, ever is excited that he um, yeah, that he had stuff from the show, and yeah it's kind of cool. Yeah six four, I know. Let me let me ask you one more question. Why would you choose to work in film and television as opposed to like a salon. Okay, I can tell you what it is for me. Um. As a little girl,

I used to watch television and old movies. I loved old movies, you know, Clark Gable, Myrna Lloyd, whoever, Gary Cooper, Sydney Porty and Kelly Gene, Kelly, Freda Stare, Oh my god, Rosy Russell. So it was just a dream of mine. And I guess as I grew up, and I just started realizing what God gave me as a gift, which was was doing here. I did. My mother would give me dollars every year and by the time the to get up Christmas, by the time June came, they were

balled here because I curled him and twisted them. And now and with the new So I guess when I came out here, it was a goal of mine to get into film and television. That wasn't an easy thing, but um, I just kept pursuing and um, but it wasn't my timing. It was God's timing. And uh, one day he opened up a door for me and I went through and oh my god, it's just been wonderful. But I wanted to work, and I worked in the salon.

I had a very successful career in the salon. When I got ready to leave, my clients were like, what you leave in me? You know, I a platform artists to write a platform artists. Yeah, I worked for Revlon for many years and so I had different phases of the beauty industry, but this was and is my favorite. Yeah. I I've been um blessed to work on some really great shows, meet some really good people. This one here, now, I just gotta say how much I love and care

about her. Um Oh, I know what you're gonna say when we started this show, and you're gonna excuse me. We started the show. Um, I was diagnosed with breast cancer. And uh, I told Jimmy. I said, Kim, I know that you know you you need to have somebody that's going to be around and help you and do and all. And um, you know I'm gonna have to go and take care of this. And I appreciate you let me work with you so far, but I know you're gonna

need to get somebody else. And she said to me, Debbie Pierce, I will not let you go because you're gonna need those hours and are going to need that to get through this. So I will cover your shift every night, and you will go to therapy and you will take care of yourself so you survive this. And I will do anything you need, and she did. She brought in some people temporarily to help. And then I, um, I went all you guys, yea, all guys. She wouldn't let me quit. Um. I went UH through treatment for

two and a half months. I left every day after after touch ups at two and I went to UH Daniel Freeman, which is no more in l A meeting Inglewood, and I took my treatment. I had my surgery and took my treatment and I came back to work. And you guys, you know, we're so kind and loving to me, and I appreciate that so much to this day. I I just love this one. Yeah, and you're still here kicking at girls. Yeah we did the right thing. Yeah,

we did well. How does it feel knowing you were a little girl watching Clark Gable and fred as Stare and you grew up and became an important part of television history yourself, Brian, I can't tell you, um what

a feeling that is. Um. The last two years eighteen and nineteen, I worked on a couple of projects that were nominated for Emmys, and I got nominated along with those projects, and I I was this floored because here's this little black girl from Younger's New York who watched all those people on the movies and television and everything. And now I have an opportunity two be in that arena and do the work. I was honored. I was thrilled.

I was humbled. I was thanking my God that I was able to I have this opportunity to do what I love to do. It was amazing. It was amazing. So I I'm and I'm still in awe. You know. I worked on a thing a couple of weeks ago. Uh they were doing the thing called Perry Amazing. Oh yeah, they're doing a Perry Amazing, which is a period they're doing it when he was a young lawyer. Yeah, it was very cool. They did it. Then we did the

thirties and all. So that was wonderful for me. And that was the great thing about um, you know, having opportunities to go back and do periods that you grew up seeing. It's just fun here to do, you know. And even when we did stuff on the show, doing different wigs and stuff to uh, you know whatever characters, and we did Ferrell, um, Will Ferrell, we had we did Will Ferrell and uh you remember Fred Astare. But not Will Ferrell. Sorry, Will's a lovely man. It's such

a lovely man. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we did. We did. Uh, we did some fun things. Phyllis is wedding. Yeah, what are you What are you most proud of? Honestly, I would say The Office, I really would. It was such a great show. It was it seemed in the beginning we had so many challenges and it just wasn't gonna go, but we stuck with it, and then it just like

slowly got this falling. And actually I remember, um, and I've said this to other people, remember when you guys had my Space where before Facebook, they all went out and I remember, like Jenna and Johnny, like all of you, We're going and saying, you know, we want to be on Carson, we want to go on these shows. And you put yourself out there. And I feel sincerely that that's what saved the show because you were, you know, in a in a time where we didn't have i mean,

social media. How it is today's crazy, but back then you were physically going to shows, you were going on my Space. You understood that we could reach more people, and I think that helped float it and then it turned it. Yeah, I mean we were definitely so we were struggling so much and we all felt like it could end at any moment. Yeah, there was a very active campaign by the actors to say, like, let's see if we can keep this going a little bit longer, just because we felt it was. It was a good

show and it was worth it. You put into work, You actually put into work, and that's what turned everything around. Yeah, it did, It really did. And I think yes, like I said, season two, I think it found it the footing of it, and it kind of excelled and it just it took on a life of its own, and I think that's really what held it together. And I knew they within a few weeks were like, yeah, it really did and it just went forever, which was awesome.

So it was nice to have that long of a run and through the whole process to what was cool is that people are getting married, people are buying cars for the first time, people are buying house and you know, so it kind of it was such a cool thing to see everybody, you know, moving into different stages of what of life. Yeah, yeah, I mean my whole thirties was spent there. Oh wow, Yes, I mean that's that's a decade. It was a decade of our lives. Yeah, yeah,

it was. That's why it's so sentimental and it's so it meant so much, such a great show. Yeah. Well, um, thank you guys so much for coming to talk to me so much. It's so good to see. It's so good to see you. I will get your hairpiece to you. We'll just try it, you know. I just wore a really really bad one for the first time since then, like a really bad Yes. I mean it was sort

of intentionally it was. It was a movie that took place in the eighties, and it had kind of a what is it Jimmy swagger, like Jim Baker kind of. They showed me a picture of the idea, which was like kind of a Sam Donaldson with that like strong strong with the hair. Yeah, so it wasn't necessarily supposed to look good. I don't know, I haven't seen the dailies. We'll see if it if that works, if it works like somewhat believably because there's yeah, but yeah, it comes

off during the movie. Yeah. Um, thanks you guys. Oh my god, the three of us, can we get a photo of me and oh my gosh, so good to see you. Oh how much fun did I have? Debbie and Kim, thank you so much for joining me. I really enjoyed talking to you. And let me just say, I am so glad that you decided to join the TV biz and leave your beauty salons. I don't know what we would have done without you and listeners. I don't know what we would do without you, so thank

you so much for listening. You know, if a tree falls in the woods and no one listens, did we make this podcast? I don't know, but I hope you have a magnificent week and I'm going to see you next time for another episode of the Office Deep Dive. The Office Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Lang Lee. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer. Our producers are Diego Tapia and Liz Hayes. My main man in the booth is

Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth Olandsky. Yeah, I'm Emilia on this podcast. I'm taking you on a search a search for love, hard working Latina, but there were other reasons I felt like I couldn't always beat myself. My mom's in prison. This is Crumbs, my love story. It's to show about the things we set up for and the bits of ourselves

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