David Koechner

for the advice. And he was like, well, that's not what I meant and I don't understand what a podcast is, but you seem happy, So that's great, kiddo. You ever do that? Well, you could at speaker dot com. That's spr E A K E R. Ask your dad you actually don't. Hi. I'm Arden Marine from Insatiable and will

you accept this rose podcast? And I'm Julianne Robinson and Emmy nominated director of Bridgeton and we are the hosts of Lady of the Road, a funny and inspiring podcast where we have conversations with influential women about their lives and we get self health advice because we are always looking to improve ourselves. Sure story, we talk about money, health, relationships, you name it from inspiring women like Joan Jet, Nicole Buyer,

Lauren Laptez Retta and more. Listen and subscribe to Lady the Road on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, sole wherever you get your podcasts. Hi. I'm Hillary Clinton and I'm so excited to be back with a third season of You and Me Both. When I started this podcast, we were going through some tough times, and let's face it, we still are. And here's what I know. We cannot get through this alone. So please join me for more conversations with people who will make you think, make you laugh,

and help us find a path forward. This season, I'll be talking about the state of our democracy with experts and with people organizing on the ground. Will draw inspiration from some amazing people like Olympic star Alison Felix and Grammy Award winner Brandy Carlisle. And we'll get into the hard stuff with writer Cheryl Strait and my dear friend and colleague, Juma Aberdeen. So join us. Listen to You and Me both on the I Heart Radio app, Apple

podcast or where where you get your podcast. Hi, gang, my name is David Kecker. I'm Todd Packer from the office The pac Man what's up, my nerds? He Hello again, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the Office Deep Dive. Buckle up. It's gonna be a bumpy ride today, that's all I'll tell you. I am, as always your host, Brian baum Gartner,

and I've got some exciting news. As you know, I am soon going to be transitioning into my new podcast, Off the Beat, which is going to take what we do here at the Office Deep Dive and expand it to more of your favorite guests and shows. So we will still be talking to folks associated with the Office, but so much more. And so today you're gonna get a little sneak peek of what you can expect in Off the Beat as we bring in a very special guest, one of my good friends and one of the funniest

guys that I know, David Keckner. Now you may know him as Todd Packer from the Office, the pac Man himself. But today we're gonna go deep, that's what she said.

We're gonna go into his full career, starting with his early days at Second City and Improv Olympic to s n L where he got his start alongside Will Ferrell, his move out to l A, which led to his big break as champ Kind on Anchorman, and well the longstanding friendship he's had with both Steve Carrell and Nancy Walls Correll, which is how he landed his guest starring role on the Office as the man we all understandably

love to hate. So let's dive in right now. The man who brought everyone in the world of the Office down is here today to lift us up. David Keckner. Everybody, Bubble and Squeak. I love it, Bubble and squeak on Bubble and Squeaker cooking at every month, left over from the nubb before. Hey, well what do I see but double b he's looking at me? How are you, buddy? Always I'm great. Always with the hat I need I need lessons from you in hat wear. Well, you know,

it's just it's the sun for me unfair. So I for me, it's it's more like, um, it's not necessarily fashioned. It's a necessity of like I gotta keep the sun off. No, but I do that. But I just wear baseball hats, and I go into hat stores to try to find something just a little bit more fashionable. I can't. I don't know it's my head shape or something. See how I have a small head too. So um, but it's really Brian, I gotta say, I've always thought this. It's

all a decision about I can wear that. Really, I just need to have confidence. That's that's what I think. You just go yep, I can wear that, and then you do because I can work for For us, it's the larger forehead, the superior forehead that we have. But it's for me it's the ears I gotta watch out for, you know, because the ball cap doesn't do those. So, Babe, do you sunscreen? I do, sure, Okay, yeah, I don't religiously sunscreen, So I got it. That's this is the

lazy sunscreen for me. Lazy sunscreen, but fashionable, way more fashionable as well. Well, thank you for saying so. And you're right, Yeah, I am right. I'm right, Dave. You are one of the funniest people I've ever met. Um that that almost goes with without let's stop there. That was the episode, and I am now fully stated I want to go back with you because there's a lot about your life that I don't know. I know obviously. Well, we'll talk about the chiefs later. On in Kansas City.

But you were born in Tipton, Missouri, and I assume your family was in in farming, right, your dad manufactured chicken turkey coops, turkey coops. I always start with saying he manufactured livestock trailers, so then people get at least a vision of it's on a trailer. Then I add coops to it so they know it's on a trailer.

Because every time I say it, people go oh fors, like something in your backyard, Like, well, um, that's condescending, And you're also ignorant and not interested because it seems to me like when they go, oh for your backyard, I've never seen a turkey coop in someone's backyard. I've seen chicken coops. But to me, like, oh like your backyard, Like, oh, so you don't want to hear the rest of the story. That's what I take away from it. Um, so, no,

they were. There were forty foot trailers and uh large racks that are built for transferring turkeys from the farm to the processing plant, so from their home to uh their death, yes, their uh to our mouths. So my dad was a manufacturer. He built a lot of different other farm inpluments like hey, bail forks uh pharaohing crates, which is another thing that's too long to get into, gas barrel stands, picnic table frames. But the biggest part

of the business was turkey coops. And yeah, so from Tipton it's right dead center of Missouri and from north southeast west it's like right in the middle on Highway fifty between Jefferson City, the state capital, and Saidelia, which is where the Missouri State Fair was held every year. That is a very special place in my heart. And so yeah, that's where I grew up. Town to two thousand people. Wow, And now, when did you start thinking

about being a performer? And I'm gonna get I'm gonna use the word performer generally now because I want to talk about that a little bit later, about what you consider yourself. But when did you start thinking, oh, this may be something that I want to do. Well. I've said this before. I'm one of six kids, and so when I was ten, I have a distinct memory of walking around the west side of my house by myself, being very contemplative and thinking, I gotta get out of here.

I have to I have to live in a city I I don't know where I'm gonna go. I'm gonna miss my family and friends, but I know I've got to go. And then when I was thirteen was the year for Saturday at Live, and I knew my parents wouldn't let me watch it because they wouldn't let me watch like laugh In or a lot of shows, you know, like A Room twenty two or stuff like that was

too racy. But they leased to go out dancing every weekend to the local Farmers and Sportsmen's Club, and I had a babysit my three younger siblings, and I knew they weren't to be there, so I didn't say anything. I didn't ask permission because I knew they would have said no, So I didn't say anything, so I didn't have to lie. I just wouldn't mention because I don't know if you remember, you're a little bit younger than me, but they would do. They were doing some live commercials

promoting Saturday Live. I was like, this is brand news, this is a live show, and it's comedy. It looks like something that I've never seen before. And so my parents were gone and so SNL, let's see it aired at ten thirty in the Midwest, and I remember watching it and through that first year I was like, I want to do that. I want to be on that show. Now. Then you don't don't tell people because you're in a small town. Small small towns don't really embrace dreams. And again,

this is before the internet. So I had no that's the title of your new book. Yeah, I like you said new book, as if I've written many, um. But so that was in my head and I didn't tell people. I didn't tell anyone. And again, there's no performance opportunity or stage opportunity in Tipton. None except once a year there was the high school play, and you couldn't do that into your junior so there was no opportunity. This is pre internet. There's not a ton of books. I'd

never met an actor. I didn't know how it worked. So that's that's that's when I knew, though. You just you've watched SNL and you were like, I want to do that. That's what I want to do. Yeo. So what was your process then, of of leaving Tipton. I know you went to Chicago. How did you decide that was the place or go about getting there? Well, I went to college first and I was a political science major. Again, that's surprising to me. That's the most surprising thing you've

said so far. Really, that's funny. The thing was, the thing is because I'm very political. Uh, I didn't even have a thought that I should be a theater major. That didn't come up. I thought, you go to college for something that is dedicated to a pursuit, a career, a profession. So I thought, well, I'm going to be in politics. And I really, looking back on it, I think that was my desire to seek a stage. But I also had this altruistic streak where I thought a

politician their job was to help people. So I did that for three years, and then I started realizing that this isn't no one's talking about the you know, how you use power or or the process or politics to really help people. It was us about this machinations of things going on. The third year was kind of getting to the more dry aspects of politics and the administrative end of it. And I remember thinking, well, shoot, I've

met so many bright people in this pursuit. And I thought, well, the people in politics are either from a political family or they are very wealthy, or they're the smartest person in any room they walk into, and I was none of those things. So I just quit going to my classes because I remember thinking, I don't want to be a lawyer. I don't want to just work for a senator, and that doesn't seem like these people are really committed to just helping people. So I quit going to all

my classes. So as you know, if that happens, you're what they call academically ineligible, which is my way of punting. It really was. And my dad said, well, Dave, I don't know what you want to do, but I don't think you want to go to school. And for me that was a relief. I didn't there was no punishment, but for him as a relief because it's like, Okay, this kid's off my doll I don't. So he sold me the car I was driving. It was a god, what year was that thing? It was a nineteen probably

a nineteen seventy seven Plymouth Grand Fury. Uh. He sold me that car for four hundred dollars. And then I was there in Clymie, Missouri. I was working three different jobs just to make it, you know, paying for your rent and all that stuff, and then a buddy of mine and I. By this point, Brian, I had read a bunch of books about Saturday Live, like there's a

smaller book called Backstage at Saturday Night Live. Then I was starting to read books about Second City, and I'd read the book about John Belushi Wired, and everything that kept coming up was like, Oh, they're all from Second City. So a buddy of mine and I we drove up to Chicago and we saw a show at Second City and I was like, oh my god, Oh my god. You know, sitting there in the whole time, was like, God, this is what I want, This is what I want.

And then on the way out, so actually on the second level, they're the big, big room and Second City. Go downstairs and there's a big poster and it was advertising classes. I was like, oh my god, that's oh that's how that's how they do it. And I had a matchbook and a golf pencil, because back then you would fill out a piece of paper for your mainly address. They wanted people's just like now they want your information. And so I surreptitiously wrote down the number for classes

on that matchbook. Because I'm from Tipton, I expected someone to tap on my shoulder and say, what are you writing that down for? You can't do that. That's the kind of narrative you come from a small town, like you don't, don't you have? You can't do that. And so then I went back to Columbia, Missouri, and I called and I found out that they taught very different levels of classes. And then I saved my money so that summer I came up and took a two week

concentrated course for what was called Player's Workshop. And then I went home and like, that's it, I'm doing this. Went home. It took another year to save money and come back. And then I moved to Chicago when I was twenty four. Wow, and and you, because I know you worked at Improv Olympic as well. Were you doing both of those things simultaneously or once I got to town, I made the mistake of thinking I had to be in restaurant management to uh to afford living in Chicago,

which I didn't realize. I made less money there than I would have if I was waiting tables. It took six months there. So I just kept all these things that happened happened for a reason, like I didn't move to Chicago to La twenty four, and I didn't start

right away. And then when I was ready to start, and I quit working as a restaurant manager, I got a job waiting tables and I opened up the Chicago Tribune in the Sunday section had an article about Dell Close and Sharna helping from the Improv Olympic and about what they were doing, and they were going to have their own television show, and I like, this is the place to go. So I started first at the Improv Olympic, which was a blessing, Like all these things lined up

and sent me to the right direction every time. And it was a delay in a sense, but it is the right time because at that point, all these other people were moving to town and starting classes, and they had all been fans of sun Life the same relative age that I had been, and we're all happened to be there. But everybody wanted to be good. It wasn't about being famous or successful. Is about you wanted to go there and do this thing and create that then find a way to do that magic you had been

witnessing and be part of that type of thing. And it just so happens. So I started the probalymic first, and then I started taking classes at Second City simultaneously, so I was taken both classes. So about that time I was probably doing at least four nights of classes a week, and then within a year then I would be doing four nights of classes and or performance every

week for my entire time in Chicago. And then years later you read the book Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell and they talked about the ten thousand hours theory and I looked back like, oh wow, I did it. I put that time in and that's the thing. So that's how that's how it happened. And for people who don't know Dell Close, this is a legendary comedy teacher in Chicago who was there at the same time with you. Well,

when I was there, Chris Farley and I started. Actually Chris Farley started I think six months later than me, but Chris Farley, Pat Finn, Pete Halley, Neil Flynn, Mike Coleman. Then, uh so this is at Second City that it's Dave Rasowski, Dave Pasquasy. A lot of these people are legends that you might not be household names, but trust me. These

are legendary and prop performers. Tim Madows was there, Joel Murray was there, and then over the Second City side at the same time was Stephen Colbert, Steve Carrell, Richard Kind had Jeff left town. But the list of the people that I ended up working with in Chicago is a who's who of people who eventually became amazing. So then just behind me was Matt Besser, Amy Poehler, Ian Roberts, Matt Walsh, tina A, Rachel Dratch, Ratio Sayings, Adam McKay

and other other names. Now these are writers John Glazer, Brian McCann, Brian Stack, Kevin Dorff. The list goes on and on, and Tommy, Andy Richter. It just goes on, and you realize that this was just happened to be an amazing time. And before I left town, I got Saturday Live after a couple of years, after many years

working there. But um I met with a guy named Bernie Sillons is one of the persons that started Second City, and he and I had lunch and he said he had never seen such a confluence of talent as had been there in this past ten years. And I look at it now and like that has never happened again. Like this group of people that all came through at this particular time in history, and all of them made a big impact in show business or in media. I guess, well you were there. I know Nancy Walls was also

the this Nancy. Sorry I forgot to mention. Nancy and I were on Saturday and Live together. Nancy Correll had been dating, Yes, she'd been dating Steve Carrell. So Nancy and I actually were in the same company at Second City, and then we both got hired on Saturday Live at the same time, and then we both got let go from Saturday Night Live at the same time. Nancy and Steve got married this summer she and I got hired, and uh, I was at their wedding and we were

out there, you know, and Steve audition for SNL. I mean that can be to be believed, like they didn't recognize like Steve Carrell's specialness. Um, I guess I guess I had to say thank God because then I probably wouldn't have gotten hired. But so, yeah, they got married right before we started doing SNL that first season. Nancy and I and then I think Steve was doing a play. He had been at Second City for a long time, and I was a huge fan of his back then.

And he then went and did a play at the Goodman called Picasso at the Lapino Gil which was a stim Martin play, and then he ended up, I think, doing it at a Broadway theater in New York, so they were there at the same time. Too interesting. I didn't know did he play Einstein? Remember, I don't never saw the play. Yeah, how arrogant is that that? I didn't think, oh shit, you know, it's one of those things.

Back then, I probably would have said he's done something stupid, like I'd like to see her play in such a way that meant like, fuck you, you know what I mean that I would have thought, you want to see my play? Oh, how good of you to come down to see my play. But you know, you're busy thinking about yourself and doing a million other things. But I never did get it. I didn't have a chance to see it in Chicago and then in New York. I forget when the run was, but I didn't. I didn't

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Provo Canyon School. Since then, thousands of survivors have come forward. Now I'm on a mission to expose the truth of the entire industry. In this weekly investigative podcast me and my host Rebecca Mellinger and Caroline Cole. We'll examine one infamous team treatment facility each season. First up, Provo Canyon School. This one is personal. When you first get there, you have to experience girls screaming, locked up, peeing themselves in

the hallway, sleeping, and you're like, where am I? Holy heck, this is not what I expected. Listen to Trapped and Treatment on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcasts. Were you still at Second City when you auditioned for S and L. Yeah? Yeah,

so that was why you left Second Yeah? That. I always thought to myself, I'm not going to go to New York or Los Angeles without a job, like I would see people leave Chicago and go to l A. But I always thought to myself, go when a job takes you there. And I was fortunate enough that a job took me away. Tell me about that audition experience. I've heard so many amazing stories. Did you audition for Lauren? Yeah?

I tell you I had. It's weird and it sounds arrogant, but I knew I was going to get it because when I was thirteen as I told you, I decided I'm going to be on that show. And it wasn't a feeling of hubrists or ego. It was just kind of this knowing, well, I'm going to be on that show. And so when I got asked to audition, I kind of heard other people had talked and some of the scouts had come through, and I knew they really liked me, and I heard from other people that Lauren really thought

highly of me. So this is before I went out to audition, So I really I felt at ease. And so my first audition, you had to come in with a an original character, and then you had to do a political impression, and then you had to do a celebrity impression. So I did at Buchanan because he has got a grave, gravelly voice like I do. Pat Buchanan is this right wing commentator on on back then it was CNN because there wasn't Fox News yet, but he was a right wing guy who was one of the

first guys talking about building a wall. And then I did Jack Lemon and Jim Carey doing a buddy movie and they were arguing about whose trailer was bigger, and Brian I improvised the entire thing, just off the top of your head. YEP. I had some thoughts, you know, how, you think because I was I was at the I OH. There's such a purity to improvisation, Like you don't decide what you're doing ahead of time. Now that is a

blessing and a curse. And you never repeat yourself at the I OH, Like if you did the same character week after week, people look like, what what are you doing? That's kind of like cheating. So after the first audition, which I just improvised, I wrote the second audition. The second audition, can't remember exactly. It may have been just go do your aracters, or it may have been do the political impression and whatever characters you want to do.

I remember I didn't have to do celebrities anymore, so I think I may have done Pat Buchanan again. And then I'd written this little piece which is almost a one man show of just characters, because I love to do characters back in Chicago too, and so I had all these little things I was going to do. It's almost like they blended together, and it's studio eight h. There's no audience and no one's laughing, and there's no warmth, and it's a bit cold, and there's cameras. Now I

didn't know, and thankfully I didn't know. The cameras are a live feed. There's people all over NBC, all over the building, watching all over the building and on the West coast. You don't know that you have a very large audience of people. You don't know that until later, And thankfully you don't know, because that would have probably been more anxiety inducing than anything else. But again, that doesn't exist unless you let it come into your head.

And I had this sense of calm and peace that I knew, I knew what I was doing, and I in myself, I knew that what I was gonna do was gonna be satisfactory to me and that this is what I have, and there was no worry to it. And I did it and I felt very good about it. I don't remember if there was a laugh at all, because no one gives it up. And then you wait another week or two, and then you get called back again. And you're getting called back and they don't tell you

to prep or anything like that. You're just getting called back for a meeting and you don't know what it is, so you go to a meeting and it's Lauren Michaels is in there, and Steve Higgins was the head writer. And then Lauren talks to you, and it's really weird because he talks about this or that. He talks about baseball, and I'm like, funk, I don't know a thing about baseball.

And then in Chicago that summer, five people had died from the heat, and for whatever reason, that was on my mind because it's just been a headline that's talking about that, and I remember Lauren Lauren saying we're done talking about that now to kind of prompt me that okay, either he doesn't want to hear about this story or whatever. And so then it goes on I don't know, five ten minutes, and then at some point Steve leans Ummer

goes congratulations, you're hired. They're like, oh, okay, because you're like, what. It doesn't seem to be structured to this meeting, but I do. I think the final meeting is just to check out if you're if you've got a screw loose, or you're a nut job or something, or you're just

not ready, if you're too green or something. It would be pretty evident at that point, there was one guy, and I don't know where he was from, and I don't know what his name was, but I do know that in the previous two auditions everyone thought he was British because all he did was speaking of British accent, and we're all from America. We don't know if it's a real one or not. It seemed fine, It did seem I didn't get to know him. It seemed a

bit presentational to me. But then apparently at his meeting it came out like, oh, I'm not really British, but he'd always been doing everything. It's like, okay, fella, there seems to be a p sential problem with you. And then he didn't make use. Everyone's like, probably that guy's gonna make it, but he was gone. So I think that's what that final meeting is, to find out, Hey, what do we got here? Now we're just one on one,

there's no performance. Who are you? So? Yes, Will Farrell and I were hired the same day, and then Will and I went to a baseball game that night and a limo pulls up and myself and Will and Steve Higgins sat in the fourth row behind home plate. Their Laurence seats Born didn't sit with us. He sat with Jim Silly, who did all the films, the short films about eighteen rows back. And we're like, so we're at the game with Lauren. This is how a game with

Lauren works. And before that, Lauren had mentioned to me, Um, Dave at the meeting, that's right, Dave. You know, this is your first time that people see you on television, so it's up to you. Do you want to have hair or not? I was like what? And he told me all the people that had wigs and all the people that had plugs, and I'm not gonna tell you, but it was a list. You're thinking like, oh, yeah, I can see that. I can see. I think to myself like, is he telling me I have to get

it too pay? Is he telling me I have to get hair plugs? I was like, oh fun, because I was thinking there's no way I could ever live it down with my buddies from Chicago if I show up on TV with hair, because they'd be like, the fuck are you? Or my family would just probably go, oh, this is sad. And then I remember later, Lauren, you know, because I could, I assume he could clearly see. I was struggling with it. And I remember after the game he said, Dave about the hair, Fuck, it doesn't matter

to you. You be you like, Oh, thank god. So that was that. I may have been like the first bald guy on the show. Maybe not that it matters, right, That is so interesting, So you know that's how it happened. Yeah, And there's a bunch of new people with me as Me and Will Ferrell and CHERRYO Terry and Jim Brewer and Darryl Hamm and and Nancy Walls and Molly Shannon's second year, McDonald's third year, Spades fifth year, uh, Tim Meadows fifth year. Then Chris Cantan came on halfway through

the season. God, they're there's a whole picture over there. Oh, Mark McKinney's second year. I think that's all of this. Wow, that's amazing. I love that and I love that you, you you know, sitting at home and Tipton said that's what I'm gonna do, and then you did, and then that brought you calm later on. Yeah, I tell you, Brian. And when I got the show, I already decided my mind,

I'm not staying. You get a six year contract, and I already decided I'm not staying six years because I was felt there's some people that stayed too long here and I'm not going to be one of them. And I thought, I'm gonna be here three years, and whether you believe in manifesting things or not, after the first year, I wasn't invited back, and I was shocked because I had a great first year, but apparently some people on the West Coast didn't dig what I was doing. And

I like that. I'm Irish Catholic, and as a person from Second City and a teacher there had once told me because he was Irish too, he was you know, we Irish, we don't suffer fools gladly, and I certainly didn't. And I had very strong opinions about what should and shouldn't be on the show, and I think I was pretty loud in my opinions, and no one gave me fuck because you know, you're you're not running the show, boy, You're on the show. Do anything to get on the show.

And it's been suggested to me that I do this one character as a talk show, and I thought that was the dumbest idea I've heard, and I told them that that I realized after I wasn't asked. BacT, they weren't asking me. They were telling me do this. But they were nice to know how about this as a talk show, And I would say, that's what's wrong with this show. We have too many talk shows. We need

more scenes. No one cares what you think. But you know, it was a blessing, I guess, because you know, I moved out to l as a fortunate to start working right away. I had a development deal within three months that I moved out here. So I've been very fortunate. That's awesome. I want to mention really quickly. I know you did stuff with Conan O'Brien before you left New York right a little bit, Lauren Lauren felt bad. Lauren did not want to fire me. Lauren wanted to keep me.

But this the year that I was on SNL is the first year that mad TV came on the air, and then Howard Stern had a late night show, so that they had competition in that hour for the first time, and so West Coast had a little bit more leverage on Lauren. Of course, there's a different politics that's going on there, and so they said we want changes, but Lauren wanted to keep me, and an effort to keep me, he said, maybe you can become a regular player on

Conan show, which they didn't have that position. So I remember going to someone's birthday party and Conan was there, and I think Lauren had mentioned to Conan, you know, why don't you make Kettner a regular player on your show? And Conor was was kind of like He's like, I love you, but to be honest, that doesn't exist here.

And we don't have the money. This is pretty early in their show, like they didn't have a budget for because every dollars accounted for, so if if you had more money for talent, it would be you'd get another writer. And so they weren't hiring me as a writer. Uh, it would have been a great education for me to be a writer, because I'm sure it would have had plenty of ideas. I sure I probably could have made it work. But the the idea of hiring an actor

is to come on and be on the show. And he kind of let me down jannily like that doesn't exist year and I thought I didn't really want to do that either, because I didn't want to stay in the same building. Was like, Hey, you're back in the minor leagues, in the same building, on the same station at the same time, but not on the time you want to be there. So it was like, yeah, I

wasn't fighting for us that. Yeah, it hurt like hell, man, it hurt like hell, But yeah, I moved to l A. Then that next year, that September, when you know they're going back to work, I packed up all my stuff in a U haul and drove out to l A. Did you meet Gruber? Oh? Gruber. The first time I met him, he guest wrote on the show for two weeks in January of nineties six, and I had put Gerald. I got a sketch of Gerald Tibbins on the air,

and he always liked that character. And Dave. Dave's from uh he had spent a lot of time in Iowa. So he's from Midwest, and so am I. Dave Gruber Allen is a legendary comedy figure, and he and I eventually did this show called The Naked Trucker and t Bones, and so he and I both got cast in this movie called dil Scallion, directed by Jordan Brady, who has now become a huge commercial director, and so I got cast in that and groupers in the show too, and

he was doing a late night show at Largo. The old Largo is a smaller club now it's his big theater in in l A or mid mid size theater in l A where they do a lot of comedy. And he said, hey, I'm doing the show called The Naked Truckers shows you come by and do a guest

spot as your t bones character. So after we've wrapped the film, I came by and I did I think ten minutes of his show, and he did like forty minutes, and then he invited me back the next week, and I think I did fifteen minutes, and then the same thing the next week, and then I said, hey, why don't I just stay up for the whole show because it was working and he and I were just improvising this.

It was a really weird thing. So the Naked Trucker sings songs about being on the road and they're just really absurd comedy songs, and he would tell stories and then here I come with this character that's a ne'er do weel carny slash hobo who can quote Chaucer and Noam Chomsky, so he's kind of like an intellectual Carny, and so the chemistry was just perfect, and the partnership was just incredible, and so he and I together was

just magic. And we did that show for seven years in l A. And I'd say to this day it's probably one of my my fondest memories of performing ever, because man, it was just fantastic and the greatest compliment I'd ever heard in doing that shows alive. Then we

became a headliner there twice a month. But the greatest complin I ever got was from some writers, because a lot of Hollywood writers would come to the show, like every Hollywood person came to the show, and some Hollywood writers had said, um, we come to this show for inspiration to realize that great comedy can still be done in this town. I was like, Wow, I didn't you know. I've never been a guy that's big on seeking advantage or trying to not really understanding how to leverage what

I have into something bigger. I just always assumed something bigger and the right thing is going to come along. It doesn't work that way. You've really got to be very specific and determined about exactly what you want to turn this thing into. And um, it turned into a very compromised show on Comedy Central in one season, and it's there and I haven't looked at it in years.

There's a lot of great stuff we had. But it's really confusing because the success Comedy Central had in comedy shows was Chappelle and men Siah and that the format for that was the comic comes out and talks and then throws to a sketch. We weren't a sketch duo, and so the format they forced us into was counterintuitive

to what we should have been doing. But I didn't have the right people around me to be able to force Comedy Central's hand and say no, no, we're gonna do the show that we want to do, and so I just went along with it. And you know, it was great. We had our own show. I've got to dig through all the tapes and start putting that stuff online and see what it was. Maybe it was one of those things like probably a little bit ahead of his time, and I don't say that ego wise. It

was just kind of confusing for people. And they promoted it. I said, don't you ever promote this is blue collar comedy because it's not that's not the crowd for this. I said, we're more of a daily show crowd. Um. And so they came up and started calling it roadhouse comedy, like we we didn't call it. We call our comedy. But you know, what the fuck is roadhouse comedy? Like it's you know, they would say it's smart, Like, don't fucking ever say dumb when you're referring to my comedy,

because it tells me that you don't get it at all. Anyway. Is that network? You're still in there? And I mean that in all seriousness, good, good, whatever. I think that's shitty because that's ego based. But they made a lot of mistakes, and my mistake was letting them do it right. What what would you consider yourself? Are you? And I brought this up earlier. Are you a stand up? Are you? Are you an improviser? Are you an actor? I know you're all you do all of those things. How do

you view yourself? And it doesn't really matter, it's just curious, but from between you and me, like we we do delineate between those types of things. But you said a performer, and I think that's probably the closest thing. That's a catch all for what I am. I love performing, whether it's with just two people or a thousand, so there's a performance. So I guess the other part would be

I'm an entertainer. So I didn't do stand up until I had my fifth child, because at that point it's like I can never have a down month, like I can't rely on anybody else to bring income. And if you're a stand up you do have some independence, like you can just go out and get it. That's the

best part. And the other thing is that at this point in my career, I could start as a headliner, which is a bit of a cheap because you know, in the stand up world you pay your dues, but I had paid my dues on other stages, and I've never stopped performing live, so I've always performed live in Chicago,

always performed in l A all the time. So I would do the take a Trucker show or else I would do sketch character pieces on stand up shows because there's a variety of entertainment being done, all kinds of alternative rooms, so it's always a place to go perform live. So when I started doing stand up was kind of like me doing a one man show, because I would

do character pieces. In fact, my first hour I had like I had Brian, I had changes on stage in comedy clubs, and I think people were wanting, like, what the fuck is going on here? Um, because it's not it's not the natural rhythm that they're used to, like bought it up, bout it up, Bob, and there's this guy. Let this added to the entire show by anyway, So that was very interesting. But at the same time, to me, I'm like, I'm doing an hour of entertainment. You call

it stand up, call it whatever you want. The stand up aspect is one person in front of a microphone standing up there. That's it. So you can't tell me, oh, I'm not doing it the way you do it. Like I'm gonna do it the way I do it, and I'm getting the same result that audience full of people is laughing. So I think I think what you said performers correct, because there's performance when you're acting, and there's performance who are doing stand up or your sketch or whatever.

So yeah, hello, hello, Hi, Oh my god, I want to come through the screen and hug you. Hey, everybody Jessica's or here also known as Vanessa Abrams on Gossip Girl. I am so excited to share my new podcast with you guys. It's called XO XO and it's a walkdown memory lane all about Gossip Girl. I'll chat with some of the cast crew fans of the show, and I'm just so pumped for you guys to go on this journey with me. All Right, I made Westwick. I played

Chuck Bass. I just can't believe that I did that with my life, Jay, we had like the most amazing time. Listen to XO XO on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Jake Halbern, host of deep Cover. Our new season is about a lawyer who helped the mob run Chicago. We controlled the courts, we controlled absolutely everything. He bribed judges and even helped a hit man walk free, until one day when he started talking with the FBI and promised that he could

take the mob down. I've spent the past year trying to figure out why he flipped and what he was really after. From my perspective, Bob was too good to be true. There's gotta be something wrong with this. I wouldn't trust that guy. He looks like a little scum, big liar stool Bidgeon. He looked like what he was or at. I can say with all certainty I think he's a hero because he didn't have to do what he did, and he did it anyway. The moment I put the wire around the first time, my life was over.

If it ever got out, they would kill me. In the heartbeat, listen to deep Cover on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Give us the over attention. We need everything you've got fast. Waiting on Reparations would beat the podcast. Tune in every

Thursday politics and wordplay. We fight for the people because they got us in the worst way, from the Hill Cooper, the Bomb Bay, to Cant from the left on Clay to what the neo kan say every Thursday, the heavy conversation and to break us off with some break because we're waiting repas. Listen to Waiting on Reparations on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get

your podcasts. When did you meet Greg Daniels? I met Greg Daniels the first time when I was writing a pilot with a writer from King of the Hill, John Callier, Jesus Christ Kicker, John Callier, amazing man, amazing writer. So we wrote a pilot for the for the Gerald character. This is before the Naked Trucker, and it was really good, but they didn't understand it at all. They liked it, but it never went to pilots. So we wrote the

script and so Greg would come around. Then say, I was a friend of Norm his cock from Saturday Live. He was a writer on Saturday Live, Canadian wright who's head writing for Kids in the Hall, and so I wanted Normal to do it. Norm was too busy because he was writing on the King of the Hill and doing something else. And then John and I wrote the pilot. He was He was fantastic. But anyway, that's when I met Greg for the first time, and Norm and I were friends, and then Norm and I wrote bunch of

stuff together. We wrote several scripts for two movie scripts for Gerald. They got close and then didn't get made. And then Norm was one of the head writers for the Naked Trigger and TBone show on Comedy Central. So but that's how I met Greg. Yeah. Yeah, So the story goes, you're shooting snakes on a plane in Canada. In Canada, and you you get a call about coming on and appearing on this television show The Office. Now I had I had auditioned. You had auditioned for Michael Scott.

But I was a huge fan of The British Office, and as you remember, the pilot episode for the American Office borrowed heavily from the pilot episode of the British Office. And I couldn't get Ricky gervais rhythms out of my head. I couldn't audition because I was like, well, here's how he says it. How else would anyone say it? Because the way he does it's perfect. So I couldn't. I auditioned, but it was neither here nor there because I didn't

have a take other than what he did. That's so interesting because you know, Steve didn't know Ricky Gervais's version of the Office, so when he went in he didn't have that reference. That's fascinating. So you had met Greg then auditioning for Michael, and then they called you about Packer. Is that what happened? Yes, As like you said, as the story goes, you'd had a wonderful actor who was quite capable, but I think he was struggling with it

for whatever reason and it just wasn't working. And I think they all agreed like, oh, this doesn't this isn't quite there. So the new guys went on to shoot the next episode. I think it might have been episode four, and I think this was episode three when Packer comes and so Steve. They were, I guess, still auditioning, and Steve apparently had said to Greg Daniels, how about Keckner

for Packer? And I'm sure Gregg was thinking, yeah, he's awful um as a human being, let's bring him as But no. So with that, you know, I had had a pretty good career going. We'd already done Anchorman, so you know, you've got the comp pence and you know yourself. You know, Packer. To me, it was like, oh my lord, you come in and say these awful things to people and get away with it. Fun. Plus it's my buddy Steve, all right, you know, there's no pressure. Really, I'm just

gonna come in and do it. Okay. Now, had I had to audition for it, it would have been different because then you're trying rather than like like I said before, on s and L. I just went and did what I do and it worked, and you get the job. You just go do what you do. When you're audition for it, you're doing what in your there's part of your mind that goes, I'm I'm doing what I hope

they want. Doesn't help it. It is so smart. That is just so smart, because you're right, of course, no matter what you're auditioning for, and you know what, what did they tell you all the time? Right, make it your own, just do your version of it. But no, there's always still a place in the back of your mind that's going like, oh, well, they must want this version of me or that at her that it's that

is so free, that's so true. I've never told this before, but I I borrowed from you and Robin Williams, actually the two of you who I started working with. I did a few projects with him right around the same time, maybe a little bit after. And I'll tell you you. I mean to say like Dave was packer all the time on set, That's an inaccurate statement. But what I mean is is that you were so free and fun and brought just an amazing energy to the set every

single time. You were there and now, whether it was because of your confidence or your relationship with Steve and you had known Greg and you were like, well, they're not gonna fire me or whatever it was, but you know, but I just mean, you just came in and it was immediately like, we're not doing brain surgery here, guys. We're making comedy television and let's make it fun and

keep the atmosphere light. And I always respected you for that, and Robin was the same way on set, just like we're not going to take this too seriously, and um, yeah, I just I always I always respected you for that and feel like I learned from you about that. I've taken to other projects to be like, let's let's keep this loose, let's keep this light, because ultimately that energy is just way more helpful to creating comedy television. Right. Yeah.

There's a great improv teacher and he runs the Annoyance Theater in Chicago, and he's one of my peers in Chicago. Guy named Mick Napier, and he's legendary at this point now, but he had written a one man show at the Annoyance for himself and it was called sex Boy because Nick was going through his life and transition of whatever he felt his sexuality was, so that was part of it.

He grew up in a small town in Indiana, and you know, I think he may have been buy or whatever, but just figuring that whole thing out and putting it out on stage. But he had a preamble in his program and he said, and I don't know if he borrowed it from somewhere else, but he said, it's called a play. It's not called a bore or a trial or a suffering. It's called a play. So let us do that. And I always thought, yes, it's called a play. It's called a teleplay, it's called a screenplay. But the

operative word is to play. And our job is to go out and play. And for me, if i'm the best day ever is when you've got a job in show business. So for me, I'm gonna pay witness to that. Today we get to do the thing we wanted to do when thousands and thousands and thousands of people who want to do what we get to do don't get to do it. So let's play and celebrate it. That's

my attitude, like, let's go have some fun. Yeah, that's awesome did you feel because again they said come and do what you do, that you felt the freedom to just do what you do. There was no judgment, there was no restraint. So yeah, I didn't. I didn't put any guardrails or parameters on what I was gonna do, and you never did. Yes. And plus the other thing, I knew the characters based on Finchy from the original Office, and Finchy was fucking crazy and awful. He's not as

bad as Finchy. Who remember Finchy takes one of the girls from the office and he has sex with her in the alleyway and the look on his face is

just priceless. Yeah, although you did, you know, poop in Michael's office and serve laced cupcakes, which actually I thank you for that because that was one of my most favorite I mean, people talk about the chili or the this or that, but one of my most favorite physical comedy scenes that I was able to do was like the flashback scene with Andy slash ed Helms and I after we got dosed up on your cupcakes, maybe my favorite.

But I feel like your role is a real manifestation of what ended up being a central part of the show, which was Michael's journey right from I mean clearly a friend of yours from early on, or at least wanted to seem cool, to be a friend of yours, to ultimately sort of, you know, shedding the shackles of you and being able to sort of evolve as a human being. Exactly.

It's the representation of stunted adolescence, right. There are men that never grow, and then then they don't when you don't care to grow, when you won't take a signal, or there's no desire to be a better human, or if there's someone suggests that you don't hear it, and in fact you try to defeat it, you would chat lenge it. And you know, it's just that absolute stubbornness that I'm fine, but it's also pain, right, I am resolute in my pain, and I won't look at it.

I will only drown it. I'll drown it with alcohol, I'll drown it with my noise, I'll drown it with my terrible behavior. And and and then you find out you're given license. When you're that horrible, no one dares to challenge you because they don't want to be bear the brunt of whatever you're gonna bring. They're just like, this is a storm that's coming in. Because Packer is not there all the time. It's a storm. I'll weather the storm, battened down the hashes and wait for it to go away.

So that's what happens, right, And he's an emotional hand grenade and he's a terrible storm. I've never thought of that before, but that's exactly what happens. He's a storm coming through and I was like, just let it go. Let it go, because he's got this Ally and Michael, until there are strong women that come into his life and say no, no, that's not okay, that's interesting. Now.

I have you ever run across anyone that this point, Brian, And you know this phenomenon as well as I do, and it's something I can't quite wrap my head around. The phenomenon that is The Office is unlike any television show I would say in the history of television. It's beyond compare. I've never been part of something this incredible. I'm imagining the people from The Sopranos and Game of Thrones have the same thing. But the difference is because it's The Office and it's a comedy and it brings

something else to everybody's life. It's so important to people's lives and their devotion to it. It changes people's lives and it's it's it's a real deep part of their lives. And you've heard people say it got me through cancer, or it got me through this breakup, or it got us together, and it's unlike anything else. Have you ever heard anyone who has written a dissertation or their college thesis on the office. Oh yeah, well there's first college

classes now that are to the show. Well, I think I think the thing that is, and you know, it's part of it. I've been exploring over the last couple of years, which I think, as you say, it makes it wholly unique from even the shows that you mentioned, which was that seven eight years after we filmed anything, it was bigger than it was when we were on like it continues to expand and grow. Do you have

an idea of why that is? Here's the way I look at it, and what I look at is why it appeals to a twelve year old all the way to a fifty year old. And beyond the way I look at it is when they come to it at twelve, they're exploring what they think is adult humor for the first time, and they get it and they understand it because it's so sharply written, like, oh, jokes can be subtle and smart and big and broad and done at the same time. So they're starting to see the tapestry

of humor. And then in high school it's kind of like you get that shared communion of you get the joke the way I get the joke. Yeah, it's a hip show. There's hip humor in it too. There's the obvious stuff, but then there's a saddle stuff, so there's

another thing. Then in college, I believe it gives you that that security blanket of well, I'm gonna have to go out in the world and work, but it's not so scary because those buffoons on the office seem to make it work and so it can't be that scarier place. And then when you get into the workplace, you go, oh, that's right, Well, at least it's not. Our place is

better than that place. But there are some people at the work in this place that I like that place, And as you're gone, then you embrace like where the office. So that's why I think there's this thread that runs through all of those things. The deep psychological impact. I haven't broken that down, but that's the only threat. I feel like I kind of have a beat on why it's got that appeal from twelve to ninety. But the psychological and the psychological thing I probably breaks down to

a bunch of different categories. And you know what Comedia dell artein is and for the for your listeners, I don't know if you talked about it. Comedia dell arte is. It's an Italian art form and they based their characters there. They had eleven archetypes based on these representations of what humans were, from low class to high class, but all

of them were lampooned. And so I know we don't have time to break it down, but if you look at the office, they are all represented by one of the comedy archetypes from Comedia dell arte as our most sitcoms,

and we're really just making fun of ourselves. And what we do is we see ourselves represented on the screen in those characters, and it gives us comfort and worth and the ability to go on because I belong I'm part of something larger than me, and I'm represented here and that's me and that person is someone else I love and you know, enjoy, or that person is a caution and everyone recognizes that that's the worst person. We all agree on that is terrible right now. I think

you're exactly right, you know. I mean, people talk about, you know, Michael Scott, the character of Michael Scott, and he says inappropriate things, and he says misguided things, but I think that throughout the show, you really get to know these people, and as mean as he is or misguided as he is at times, he has a tremendous amount of heart. And all of the characters have a tremendous amount of heart, which I think brings comfort. I

don't know, but that's I think. I think you're absolutely right. Every all the regular players on the show, you know, we identify was struggle, and so everyone's struggling, but they all succeed and they get through, and the best way to get through is to have heart and to identify with what kindness is and make the better choice. And it might take someone several times to make the better choice, but you're rooting for them, like, don't do that make

the right choice please this time? But you know you have to not make that right choice a long time because it's comedy. R look for your children's eyes to see the true magic of a forest. It's a storybook world for them. You look and see a tree. They see the wrinkled face of a wizard with arms outstretched to the sky. They see treasure in pebbles, They see a windy path that could lead to adventure, and they

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no one else grows in the forest. Our imagination, our sense of wonder, and our family bonds grow too, because when we disconnect from this and connect with this, we reconnect with each other. The forest is else the thing you think. Find a forest near you and start exploring. I discover the fourth dot Org brought to you by the United States Fourth Service and the AD Council. You were on SNL. We haven't even talked about, but obviously you know huge classic now all time comedy movies. Anchorman

champ Kind. What is the role now that you have done throughout your career that you would say that you are are most recognized for. Oh, well, it's Todd Packer hands down, and then champ Kind second. It was a puzzle to me because after three years of being on, just two episodes of season of the Office, when you'd see your name in print David Kicker from the Office and Anchorman like, wait, no, it's Ackerman in the Office. I'm not I'm not on the Office. I'm barely on

the Office. But I think the thing about Packer is he was referenced a lot in the show, even when he's not there, or I think people would feel there's like, oh shit, something's going on, things are bad. Is Packer coming? I think there's a pervasive feeling like it any is a storm on its way? Can we avoid the storm? Or just an episode where Packer is gonna show up and it's always this loathsome feel like, oh, I don't want I don't want the ghosts, the horrible ghost to

visit tonight. Yes, well, if Packer is coming, there's no way to avoid them. Let's just be clear about that. There. You might batten down the hatches, but you can't. You can't protect yourself. Yes, things are gonna be overturned. I do want to mention obviously, you are still incredibly busy and successful, and I know right now you're on tour. And by the way, I do have to say that,

I do have to tell you this. People ask me now all the time, you know, I say, oh, I'm going to this college or I'm going here there, and they're like, oh, you know, stand up and I for me, you you mentioned sort of this before. I can't even call myself a stand up because I feel like it's cheating because I didn't go through that before. It's cheating now. But you're doing a live show, David Keckner dot com. You can grab tickets there. You're going everywhere, right all

around the country. Yeah, this is the I'm doing more dates this year than I ever had before because I'm writing a new show and I will be doing a special before the end of the year. Yeah. And you know, it takes a long time to become a stand up, and they say, and I've been doing it long enough

now that I feel like i can call myself one. Okay, But you know, rather than trying to do what everybody else is doing, I finally like, no, no, David, You've got to embrace the thing that you do and do more of that because there's so many great stand ups that do so many different things well like that, do what you do well, Dave, don't try and be a little bit of this and a little bit of that before.

I think a lot of my show has been a little bit of this, a little bit of that, like compared to a lot of different influences that we've all had. But then at some point you're like, well, what's your thing do You're just an hour of just your thing the way you want to do it, and they'll come good for you to see that. There are moments sometimes in shows if I'm doing a character piece where someone who's used to the rhythm of the stand up going

from this joke to another. Now I'm in a character like what and you know the thing that I have and you have too, is like you've got to say the stuff from the office and anchorman because that's what got me here. So I do have to do that in my show, and I recognize that. So once that's done, like, okay, guys, we're done with that. Now comes my turn. I struggle with whether to make them wait for it or just getting off off the bats. I don't know. I'm the

same way. I don't There's not an answer. Okay, there's you know, it's up to you. I think what I've done, I've done both. I've done where I do it right away, and I've done where I do it halfway through. And I sometimes will do it when they yell right. You know, after fifteen minutes, someone will yell whammy, and I know they can't even pay attention to my show until they hear whammy. It's almost like, Okay, I'll give you a whammy.

It's almost like a kid, all Right, you're gonna get one cookie and then we're gonna you know, then we're going home or whatever they We're gonna settle in and watch the movie. Yes, you get popcorn and soda pop. Then you've gotta be quiet for the whole movie. But there is that because there's people who just can't stand it. When's he gonna say whammy? What's he gonna say? What's up? My nerds? I can't to hear you say what's up? My nerds? I get it you and I can't run

from this. It's it's what got them in the seats in the first places. That is through. I can't leave you without talking about the Kansas City Chiefs. Maybe the greatest game in the history of the NFL, the Buffalo Bills losing somehow with thirteen seconds left on the clock and Kansas City coming through. What your experience watching the last thirteen plus seconds of that game, Well, I'd be a liar if I didn't say I had availed myself

to the idea that it's okay, okay, it's okay. I knew we were playing the best other team in my estimation in the game this year. I knew that the Buffalo Bills would be our toughest opponent of the year. We've got so many weapons, You've got so much hope, and we've got my homes and all of them. You don't just say we've got my homes. We've got my homes and Kelsey and Hill and Pringle and everybody you know, and Williams and Edwards Hilaire on that front line. We've

got everything. But there is something about the magic of these two quarterbacks, Alan and Mahomes, and they both kept doing it, and it's you know, it's only about the time, because they would have come back and scored, yeah, back and forth all night. Yeah, we just happened to have the ball. Alan played an absolutely perfect game and lost and lost. Um so I was willing. I was willing

to accept defeat. I wasn't defeated. I was willing to go, Okay, well we put it all out there too, and I can't believe they came back after what we just did. And there there's never because there's always talking about time management and football. You left him too much time? You like, you're like, what, you left him too much time? There's thirteen seconds. Then you know you can't second guess their coach. Right, let's put him deep on. Everyone could say you should

have swibbed it. You should have kicked an on side kick. You shaid it, well, the should should and then how are you gonna go? You know seventy yards that's not going to happen. Well, yeah, well the special team it does and it's okay, and you've got to be part of a special game. And I felt too, was like, god, do we start saying this is the greatest game. I was at the Colosseum when the Chiefs and the Rams scored a hundred and nine points and kept going back

and forth. That was an amazing game. We lost that one, but the lesson was we were right there. We could do it. We scored forty summer fifty points, right, like we can do it. So yeah, it to be part of a great game is something else. Yeah, it was amazing. If you are playing in the super Bowl, good luck, and if you're not, well you won. I think the greatest game in the NFL history, the best game I've ever seen. Yeah, I don't see how we're not there.

I'm pretty confident. But you know, one game, one day at a time, and I know you and Aaron are close, and uh, that's tough. Yeah, that was not as fun. I'll be honest. I was hoping. I was hoping it was going to be uh, the Chiefs and the Packers. I thought it was going to be. I did too. I thought I was pretty sure that's that's and I thought that's going to be an incredible game because we didn't play the Packers. We played the Packers without Aaron Rodgers.

Earlier in the season. We didn't beat the Packers. We beat the Packers without Aaron Rodgers. That's not the Packers, right. Yeah, Well, good luck, enjoy enjoy it, and Dave, thank you so much for coming on. Pleasure, appreciate you so much and sharing well you're inside about the office but also I think some amazing words for for anyone who not only has a dream of being an entertainer or in this business, but but really any business. So thank you, my friend.

I appreciate you as well. Double be great to spend time with you. Thank God for chechno aology so we can hang out and it's wonderful. All my brother, best your family, have a great day. That was amazing, David, Thank you so much for stopping by. Funny I expected Deep I did not, but hey, I loved it. All of you out there listening, that was great, right, I hope you enjoyed it. Off the Beat is going to

be freaking awesome. I'm so excited. I'm gonna be back next week here with the man who brought the Office to the States once again, Ben Silverman. It's gonna be a bitter sweet episode, but I cannot wait to go off the Beat with all of you. I'll see you then. The Office. Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Langley. Our producers

are Liz Hayes and Diego Tapia. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by Seth Olandsky. I'm Sarah Wendell and for close to twenty years, I've been a wildly recognized expert in the world of romance. And I'm Alicia Ry, best selling author of over twenty romance novels. Introducing I Heart's new romance podcast, love Struck Daily. Every day we

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