Amy Ryan

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I'm Amy Ryan and I played Holly Flax on The Office. Hello. Hello, everyone, welcome to another installment of the Office Deep Dive. I am your host Brian bond Gartner. I hope you're doing very well today, and if you're not well, I think I'm about to change that because my guest on the podcast today is the truly extraordinary Amy Ryan. Now I have to come clean about something here. Okay. When Amy Ryan showed up on the set of the Office for the first time. I freaked out a little bit because

I am a huge Amy Ryan fan. If you have not seen her work prior to the Office, you should Season two of The Wire Genius. Her Oscar nominated performance in Gone, Baby, Gone is so heartbreaking and amazing. Now. I interviewed Amy in New York right after my interview with Paul Feig, and partly because we live on opposite coasts, I had not seen Amy in such a long time, many years in fact, and immediately, boom, I'm just so

happy to see her again. I have this special place in my heart for Amy, and what's amazing to me is that so many people have a special place in their heart for Amy, even though she only appeared in fifteen of our two hundred plus episodes. I mean, I could imagine a world where people were not so fond of Amy and the character she played, because basically, she's the reason that Michael Scott left the Office right. But Amy was so undeniably perfect and wonderful as Holly that

you just couldn't help falling in love with her. Plus, she and I, for better or worse, we are linked together forever because of the very special Kevin Holly storyline, which well you'll hear us get into shortly anyway, am I am? I gushing, I'm gushing. I can't help it, Ladies and gentlemen. Here she is Amy, Ryan, Bubble and Squeak. I love it, Bubble and squeak on Bubble and Squeaker. Cook get every month lift over from the night before. So I was here and we were thank you anything

else either, I'm okay, thank you, masus. What's on the list? There's nothing but beverages on this table. I don't know, Hidrake, I'm caffeinating. I was here very briefly. I saw John. Um, they let me get rid of these Paul things, just get rid of it. And then yeah, Paul was I think he's doing a pilot and then a movie back to back. So he was like, you can come through New York or else you in May or something like that. Yeah, I'll come back. That's great. Yes, how are you good?

Really good? Yeah? Um? All right, so before you were cast, did you watch the show? So my my history of the Office started with my neighbor Noline Burke, who came home from Ireland visiting her family. With the British series. She said, this is a really funny show. You have to watch it, and she had, you know, like the DVD pal or whatever. So I was full on in convert from the Ricky Gervais series. Then I heard they were making an American version, and I thought that was

just blasphemous. Why why can't they just import the show? Why do we import our shows or export our shows there? But we Americans need to remake something that's perfect, And I thought it was the worst idea ever. And then I started seeing the cast assembled. I was like, oh, this is going to be funny, and it was. And I watched the American version happily. Um, and then I thought, like I I enjoy comedy. I never I'm not good at the four camera sitcom thing. I can't land the

boom boom the whatever. But I when I saw The Office, I was like, Oh, this is character based comedy. This is not rhythm. I mean there are some rhythms and of course, but like it's not so dependent on that joke and then the alternative punchline for that joke that all the writers stand around writing and let me get it, that is like too stressful for me. So anyway, the Office, I felt like, Okay, here's the world I could fit into in terms of building a character. And there, you know,

everything is life for death for them. So what was the process of you being cast on the show? Did they approached you to come in? That was the year I was nominated for h an Oscar for Gone, Baby Gone, And I remember saying to my agent, half joking but not really. I was like, you know, if we have any pull right now, want to cash it in on the office. I had not heard that, yeah, and he's like, okay.

And apparently simultaneously, Paul Lieberstein, who I had known from sitcom many many years earlier, called The Naked Truth that he was writing on knew of me but also as a fan of The Wire, and so I think I'm not sure who called first, but I think both were like there was a coincidence of timing that in that case.

So so I showed up, what are you doing here? Why? Anyway, I I felt very very confident in my decision that this is where I wanted to be next because a lot of all, you know, a lot of the opportunities as well, like there's not much imagination once you maybe poked through with a role you know, as you may know from your own experience, like people like, great, we have this new role for you, and she's a drug addicted mother. There you like, you mean like the one

I just played. Okay, that doesn't sound like so much fun for a while, playing someone intelligent was not coming to me surprisingly, isn't that frustrating? So so, but making those hard right turns and giving other people whiplash is what I was after, Like it's so certainly like going to a comedy and just being well groomed in a role, you know, So I was. I was really grateful for that that they thought it was a good idea too. So when you were cast, did you at that moment

have any idea of where it was going to go? No, But I I understood that I was there on a trial basis. I think it was the last episode, like Goodbye Toby. I came in and I think it was a pretty fancy audition basically like having not read for the role, like, okay, if this doesn't work out, because they said, like, you know, maybe might might be love interest from Michael Scott, We're not sure, but you know,

we still have some ideas. But yet again there was the British version to kind of go By, and there was that character I forget her name, but where he finally found someone that the affection was mutual. But then I believe that about that part is I think where it stopped, like the comparison, so I knew it was a little up in the air and depended on how well I did. I mean, it felt very welcome by all you guys. But there is a weird thing about being a fan of a show and then being employed

by that show. I remember doing it, like one episode of e Er back in the day, like shocked that the hallway was so little that they did all that choreography of like running through with gurneys and such, and you know, the wire was the same thing, like being a big fan of the show and then joining the company in the second season. It's it takes a minute to just like calm down right, No, no, Well, being a guest star is a very difficult thing. You're the

transfer student from another school. Totally, yeah, well, who's going to sit with me at lunch? Were you were? You? Were you nervous when you walked onto set the first time. I was nervous. I can tell because my head is tilted down like this, and because because my daughter just watched that episode, and so having the hindsight, like I was like, oh yeah, like you're not like standing up straight. Yeah, just that little till to the head, like maybe no

one will notice if I mess up. And then I was And then you know, a lot of that quickly subsided because the nature of being on the offices, you are a main character and an extra all in one. Right. You are in the background every scene if you don't have spoken lines. And I remember being um positioned I one of the low file cabinets and pretending to go through papers and kind of shock is all that those

papers were like old medical records. Yeah, I thought, oh my god, this is somebody's it's alcial security number, this is somebody's medical history. This is just shocked. Anyway, Yeah, they recycle. That was Kate flannering I talked about that, which I had forgotten. Get a shredder, people, shred your stuff. You might end up a prop on the Exactly, it's a hard time for hiring, so you need a hiring

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But how much of that was a discussion about, you know, potentially Holly being the female version of him or is that how it was described or no, um, it wasn't described that way, but you know, just in the writing, I mean, it was so generous of the writers too offer me those tidbits, whether it was like rapping with him or you know, the Yoda saying I clearly they're saying she is of like kinfolk and then just as an actors like, well, I can't do you know Steve's

bit like I can't, and even if I tried, I couldn't. But like, how do you make it the same but different? You know? Um? And I just I just love that idea, that it's a lid for every pot, you know. I I don't know if I really want to admit this. But after however, many years playing different parts and theater and other TV and film, I get a call from my high school boyfriend. He's like, well, I'm so glad you're finally playing yourself. Yeah, and I can't really deny that. Yeah, yeah,

that's amazing. My my like nerdy, geeky side was on the rise. Yeah. So drug adult, single mother. Oh no, that's part of that's that's the other side of my personality. I like to keep it balanced, don't pigeonhole me. You had worked with Steve before, very briefly, yeah, or um? So, Steve started a film called And in Real Life, and PETERR. Hedges wrote and directed. Peter's an old friend of mine and I have a really teeny tiny part in there,

playing his sister in law. It's a big extended family and Peter got together a bunch of his New York actor friends. We all were up in Rhode Island for I don't know, six eight weeks or so. Anyway, the whole company was very close and that's where that's where I met Steve Um, you know, just chit chatting. We really didn't have any scenes together and stuff like that,

but I don't I don't know. I got asked that a lot about what's the chemistry with Steve, And I have to say, I have to give him credit for being the most grounded, down to earth creative genius that um you can dream of, because he's got a really good thing going on. And he he isn't subliminally subliminally like I can I want to change that work as who can say subliminally. He he is in no way

saying back up, let me do my thing. I've experienced that on sets with other actors, like they're they're not even really looking at you or you know, they can do it all. They don't even need you off camera for their close up. But Steve, and I guess that's his early days, you know, improv being with a group. He's so generous, and I always thought it was weird. He'd be like the first one to be like that's

so funny. He'd tell everyone like how funny they were, you know, and you just like, he's just your shoulders dropped a little bit. You're like a little more relaxed each time. But I don't know. I did say to him one time, I said, I know this sounds really flaky, but um, I really feel like I've known you before in my life, and he said, I feel the same. So I think it was just about trust and just having fun. Like so you were there and then you left.

And it's interesting because, you know, you talk about Jim and Pam, their relationship played just very purely, and then all of Michael's relations and ships played essentially totally for comedy, at least until Holly, you know, like the Carol the real estate agent and Jan that was like so preposterous and terrible. But I think for me, even though you guys were so close and that chemistry was there in my head, you left and it went away, like it

went away. And for some reason the Herpies episode where he calls you, I suddenly went, oh, this is it, Like this is this is where they're going. Where were you in terms of the discussion about you coming back again or did you say nowhere No, we left it open and I'd love to come. But for me, it was also about location. I live in New York and I love being in New York, so I didn't want to relocate to Los Angeles, but I was happy to

come and go. And then also in that time, then I was pregnant and had my daughter, Georgia, So so there was a big chunk off while that was happening. Yeah, where do you feel like Michael's search for the American dream? You know, happiness, success, family? You know that that that's all he's looking for, and then nobody will give it to him except whit that he doesn't want anything but that it becomes the people that are in this office

until until you come along. How do you feel like that transition for him his character happened or how did you see it? Well? I don't know if I can speak so clearly about Michael in that way, but um, I just feel like, maybe, you know, Michael just became just a happier person, and right, you know, he's still crazy, That's what I still like. Like he still makes really bad choices along the way and things that make other

people cringe. Like it's not like suddenly Holly comes and spreads this Jack Pixie dust on him, and he's like a normal person. But she's got a little of that too, So it's it's permissible in their world. Um. I think, you know, when I'm stopped or asked questions, you know, if it's someone on the street or I just I'm always amazed at how much like they root for a guy they don't like, and they're so glad he met me. You know that ort home and I love that. That's

all in conflict with each other. Um So what does what does Holly mean from Michael? I mean, it's a guy who's just so so desperate to have a win somewhere in his life or to be that guy. You know, he poses at that for so long and then here's someone he doesn't have to work that hard with for the I think the first time we see him, or that we've known him rather and I don't know, maybe that it's it's all gonna be okay. If there's one phrase to it, like, you know, we all matter the

end of the day, we all matter. There's there is someone for you, and if you don't feel good along the way, then you're just with the wrong person. And maybe that sounds easier said than don it there's someone single alone being Yeah, you know, thanks thanks for that adviceing me Ryan, you suck like I think I think there's um. I guess progress. It's the word he's gotten out of his own way. Yeah, but I think that

in the show. On the show, all of the characters, you bring up a really interesting point that people haven't talked to you so much, but so much is about just wanting to win one just having that one success, be it in work or in life or in love or whatever. And Holly really is that for him? Yeah? Yeah, and he didn't have to work that hard for it. I mean she was in as fast as he was pretty much. So you know that's that's also fun to see him get knocked back a bit, right, He can

more be himself. Isn't to stalk a woman to date her? He doesn't have to pose? Yeah, And then of course we all feared his viewers if you say, like, what does this mean for the show? Is he leaving the show with it? What? What? No? No? What's back up? Back up? Back upright? You know that proposal when I had to walk down the line of everybody holding candles. I couldn't stop crying. I thought it was one of those things where it's like to tell meself, like this

isn't real. But there's something about everybody's face, like looking so lovingly and they can like it was such a beautiful setting. But I had to I had to tell myself, like, these are actors. You're not getting married, but it's like any wedding, Like, oh, it makes me cry. I've often I've often said there was something about that that scene that water comes, you know, the sprinklers coming down, that um, I don't know what's so sort of beautiful and moving

to me. I Steve directed that episode and I remember, you know, the water being such a big effect and that first take, which is what's in the show because it was shocking and it was cold and it was goofy and it wasn't cinematic. And I don't know who, but you know, on the other side of the monitors like we have to go again, and Steve got up and he remember he fought for it. He's like, no, this is better. It's not it's not slick, it's not cool.

It's they look terrible, but it's funny, you know. And I was so glad too reasons because I agreed with him and the others, like I really didn't want to get wet again because that water was so cold. It was such a shock when it opened up. Yeah. Well, and I just remember that, um that the it's how

life is right, like everything is not. It's not the perfect moment that you that you assume that it's going to be and even though it is this beautiful moment with the candles, like there's something that's going to screw it up. Yeah, but that's the life I prefer to live in. Like weird is good to me. Odd is really good to me. You know, that's what makes me

laugh through life that just things slightly off kilter. Yeah. Well, I think the moment that always like anytime I see it, and I felt it as a human being in the moment that it happened when he says I'm going to Colorado, and Kevin says, all of us right, because with Michael, we all must go right, because that's how to us. Michael is the office that Yeah, but because of you there, there's that transition there, you know. I think when you

find true love and nothing else matters. So like his old in a ways aren't necessary, but you know, eventually he finds his true family. Yeah that's me. Yeah, I'm Jake Halbern, host of deep Cover. Our new season is about a lawyer who helped the mob run Chicago. We controlled the courts, we controlled absolutely everything. He bribed judges and even helped a hit man walk free, until one day when he started talking with the FBI and promised

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I didn't think about it until halfway three oil pa. Um. When Michael Scott left to go be with you, there was obviously a hole on the show, And the question is what do you feel like was the bigger loss, Steve Carrell or Michael Scott? Well, what do you mean? Be your question? If there you mean if Michael, Well, that Steve was you know, as you mentioned before, he is just such a good and loving person and really

was the head of the ship. Yeah. Right in terms of the whole cast, Like when he left, don't I don't know if you know this, we retired his jersey, like literally the number one on the call sheet did not exist he left. He certainly set the right energy of being the lead of the show. I feel like he brought out the best in everybody because he's so kind and he's so generous, and I feel like, um,

I'll use myself an example. One morning because we had those early morning makeup sessions like four report in the morning and uh, Steve said, um, He's like, how are you? I said, I'm tired, you know, got up like fifteen minutes before the alarm and I drove over the hill and I think a Starbucks wasn't open. He goes, oh, poor, you like being paid a lot of money. They come beyond a hit show. And I was like, oh, yeah, right, you guys don't complain out in l a in New York.

This is our good morning check. But you know, he was being playful obviously, but it was like a reminder of like this tube will pass, and you know remember that because you might not have it so good one day. Right. Well, you you came in ultimately to be a love interest for Michael, But I have to tell you the story

relined between you and I. On the show. Um gets talked about a lot, and I think in the history of table reads that we had on the show, it was never more laughed because of how long that joke. And then he used to set up And you know when I get asked now about moments in the entire show where I could not stop laughing, was Hugh and the button is literally if you with the change, Nickel, this is this is a button. And there was something about the sweetness on your face and you just very

genuinely explaining to Kevin that this was a button. Made me smile. Every single time, and I was like, I can't do it, and they're right there with the cam like I can't do it, and basically then just turned it into a grin to say I'm gonna I'm gonna bang you. But that Yeah, do you think that story could play now? I mean, there's so much of The Office that I don't know if it could play now. Um,

it's interesting. So I just happen to watch that episode because my ten year old daughter and all her friends at school are really into the Office and my daughter is a little behind the rest of her friends because I think it's weird for her. But but anyway, so watching my husband Eric and I like, we're just out of her eyeline. But here comes your line like I'm totally going to bang her, and you know, I'm like, we look at each other, like then you look over

at her face. Does she registered that, you know? No, because somehow it's going right over their head, I think, or she maybe she doesn't you know? Um, I mean I don't know. I think I hope a lot of it still plays because I think it's well intentioned. I don't think we were cruel statistic ball on this show. I mean, but the stuff that doesn't play. It's interesting to think about as we all think we're like well intentioned, liberal minded, caring people, and the stuff that we didn't

pay attention to. And so you know, you're asking me, is it okay to make fun of a person who we think is mentally handicapped? Probably not, but it was really funny then so what do we do with it? Like, you know, I don't know where that lives. Um, I

certainly don't want to offend anybody. I mean, I think the joke is upon the person who made the mistake, you know what I mean, Like it's how could Holly be that thick or or that well, you know, it's really that it's Dwight who But I'm I'm in the middle there of not using my own good judgment or maybe asking for a second opinion or you know, I mean,

we all we're all judgmental. We say we don't, but we judge everybody that walks down the block, you know, in our heads, in a little private tapes, in our um why do you think? I mean, part of why we're doing this exploration is we haven't filmed anything in six years, and essentially, by almost any measure, now The Office is the most watched show on television. Why well, I think I think these are relatable characters. And first of all, it's funny, so that's what's holding up through time.

The writing is funny, and it's a really great uh ensemble of actors and uh what you know, you look back at what what old shows like I Love Lucy still Hands holds up you know. Um, it's funny and it's not about like, um pop call ulture, you know, which obviously fades away. We don't understand the references over time, we forget them and such. I think also the culture of binge watching. It's you know, it's written well for that.

It's written well for that, you know. Um, you know, I have friends who tell me their kids watch it as really like also a soothing effect if they're having a bad day, they go and they pop in the office and it lifts them. Right. Why do you think that is? It's about paper salesman? Right? Well, I don't know. Maybe there's that you know, joy we get in knowing like, well,

at least my life isn't that. It's interesting though, the fact that we are employees at a paper company that actually make a living doing one job with a specific small because now if you're selling paper, you're working at Staples or your chip getting it from Amazon or whatever like that. That that's sort of like office community. That that group. Whether you like the people or don't like the people, it's still a community. Well maybe that's it's

also community is the key word. Maybe not so much like I could be in a job for the next thirty years and get my pension. I don't know if people are really dreaming about that, but I think you're right. A community and this is such a world where everyone is expressing their emogens, emogens, emotion, emotions with emojis and um, you know, connecting with people, even misconnecting, you know, like

the conflict is probably interesting and fun and enviewable. Yeah, well you I mean you talked about Paul being a fan of yours on the Wire. I mean, it cannot come as a surprise that everyone who was on set was such a huge fan of yours and the Wire and the fact that seems like the whole ensemble for the Wire it's not going on, it's one point or other. It was like, how can we think of a way to go? Do we do? We do? We need to

go to the docks. Is there docks near scraping Away? Yeah? Um, but anyway, I uh yeah, thanks for coming and talking to me. My pleasure. It's so good to see you again. It's so good to see you. Yeah. I will tell you. You know, I go to college campuses and I'll talk and and I know that all people want is they want they want to hear it, they want to hear Kevin. Yes. And just so you know, it almost always comes out as I'm totally going to bang Holly. That's it. That's it.

Two hundred and six episodes, two hundred and six episodes. No, but I'm saying that's the line. Maybe maybe you'll update it for this generation and you'll say, with her permissions, But it's funny that that is, uh, that's always the line. Oh, thank you so much. Well, there you have it. Thank you Amy so much for coming in to sit down with me. Luckily, I am pretty sure I do not need Amy's permission to say that was one of the most delightful half hours of my life. That's what she said. Anyway,

I hope you all feel the same way. Thank you all for listening. Have a wonderful week, and I will see you next time for another episode of The Office Deep Dive. The Office Deep Dive is hosted and executive produced by me Brian Baumgartner, alongside our executive producer Langley. Our senior producer is Tessa Kramer, our producer is Adam Massias, our associate producer is Emily Carr, and our assistant editor is Diego Tapia. My main man in the booth is

Alec Moore. Our theme song Bubble and Squeak, performed by my great friend Creed Bratton, and the episode was mixed by seth Olansky. Hey, it's De Lieva. I'm here to tell you about my brand new podcast, De Liva at your Service. I'll be sitting down with the world's most inspiring minds to uncover what makes them take and what they've learned from the stalls life has thrown at them,

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get your podcasts. Hi guys. I'm Jade Ivene and I host Tell Me About It, the podcast that is the antithesis of a success story podcast where we leave things like girl Boss, energy and lucky breaks at the door and instead celebrate and commiserate about all the things that make us human. This is the podcast manifestation of those conversations you have with your best friend at four am. We have all kinds of women from all different walks of life, like Gwen Stefani, Steph Schep, Amanda Knox, La

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