The Ochelli Effect 9-5-2024 Mike Swanson

Get ready for Hey.

September five, twenty twenty four, allegedly, according to that thing we call a calendar, this the o'celli effect on a Thursday, and I have not been live this week because well, quite frankly, I'm going to tell you on tomorrow night's show why. But something happened to me and I got injured this week. So I was going to try and be on last night, and I could not get myself together by eight o'clock to even get on the air.

So how you doing tonight.

I'm doing good. Yeah, I'm planning on.

Yeah, I get I got an email a couple of days ago. When's this new book coming out? Well, I've kind of I haven't actually written anything, uh in the over the course this year for a new book. I've been working on the financial stuff. And what I plan on doing is kind of really stepping away from writing so much financial stuff. I write like a daily newsletter and I'm just gonna pare it down to once a week so i can start to really get serious about

Out there.

That the idea that Kennedy may have been killed because of his Vietnam policy.

Got out there.

And what the Pentagon paper showed, not in huge detail, just in a couple of pages, was that he had a plan to withdraw from Vietnam. And Peterdale Scott wrote about it when the Pentagon papers came out. Might have been one or two other people, but he was the main person. And then John Newman of course did a lot more research into it with more information, and a year or two ago and I made talk about the

It's really indisputable. But the author of.

This does a bizarre twist and claims that it wasn't Kennedy's plan and instead it was McNamara's plan, and therefore, if Kenny had lived, he brought Kennedy probably wouldn't have done it, which is a completely bizarre argument because it's not he doesn't present any actual factual evidence. That's just a theory that he presents after presenting all this evidence, some of a lot of it that's never been published, that there was a withdrawal plan. It's like a political

Uh, well, there's yeah, but there's also a couple of other realities here. I mean, when Johnson goes in, he continues on the Vietnam policy, uh, and seems to completely ignore Cuba, which Kennedy did not ignore Cuba when he was in Aufice, right. Uh So you know that that you could say definitively, I think, but Johnson seemed to show no interest in Cuba ever again for the rest of the time he's in officer.

Maybe I'm paid.

That's exactly right.

And I and I've got documents that basically show him saying I don't want nothing to do with it. So that's what I want to talk about is kind of make put I'm gonna put a stuff a bunch of stuff together in October a timeline of documents and information and present that at the at the conference, and you know, one day it will be put into it would hopefully put into a book. But basically, to make a long story short, I believe that there was an effort among somebody or maybe multiple groups two.

Spark a war in Cuba.

And that not necessarily mean they're all involved in the assassination. It could have been after the fact trying to take advantage of it. For example, the d are the Cuban and di Castro group that Jefferson Morley has shown as you know, getting assistance of some CAA figures that group immediately after the assassination.

I'm talking minutes after the assassination.

Within an hour, we're putting out pressure releases and statements linking Oswald to Castro in Cuba. So there may have been multiple people or groups doing things, you know, not on the assassination so to speak, but.

Ed when Johnson, you know, is presented with.

The morning after assassination with dubious information that Oswald got money from a Cuban when Oswald was in Mexico.

City, that could have something to do with paying him to do the assassination.

He supposedly waives these around to people and most likely uses them as a justification with thorough Warren to get him on the warrant commission. But these this this information is actually debunked.

Over the course of a couple of days by the FBI. Then the CIA has to distance itself from it too.

Well, there's circumstantial issues here because look, you have what is not known to the public at the time, which is the whole Mexico City trip, and then you have what is known to the public, which is, you know, over the weekend of the assassination, right when Oswald's in custody, all across the country, at least clips of those interviews that he did in New Orleans were played where he is a pro castro sympathizer, right, He's with the Fair

The whole thing is strange, so you know. But but the thing is, once Oswald's.

Dead, you know, there's nothing about Cuba again pretty much for years and years until people start making suppositions later where they're like, oh, well, you know it could have been over Cuba, right, Uh. The c Day thing, the thing that Lamar Waldron comes up with about oh, I don't know, forty years after the assassination, where he says, oh, look, you know, here's this contingency plan.

They might have invaded Cuba. You know that might have been in the playoffs.

I'll tell you something interesting.

Yeah, the day of assassination, yep, that I don't have maybe the next day I don't have the document right in front of me. But uh, the Joint chiefs of staff, you know, every people think of le Maay and you know, you know you get the head of the Army, the Navy and so forth.

Has had the Air Force.

General Wheeler head of the Army, shoot head of the Marines. But anyway, beneath the Joint chiefs of Staff was the Joint Staff made up of five separate divisions of one hundred people each, and one of them was one hundred people whose job was to make plans, war plans. If we invade Cuba, they're you know, they make the plans.

For it, if they if we're going to invade.

Or do something in another country, you know, they're they're the ones making all the war plans up. And the way they organize it is you got these one hundred people, and you have officers mostly colonels majors that are coming

Right.

Well, that's one division, okay. Another division is tasked with communications and delivery of orders. So if there is an order given to do a military action such as evade Cuba. The order would come from the President to the Secretary of Defense.

Down to these guys. Right.

It's not General le may or General Wheeler or the Joint chiefs of Staff you know, that are given out orders.

It's this segment of the Joint chiefs of Staff. Now what's interesting is the head of that sent a memo. It charged these one hundred men.

He sent a memo to General Maxwell Taylor, who is the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, when Kennedy was killed, and he said, there are a couple briefing items I think you need to brief Lynn and Johnson on, okay, And one was the tingency plans for nuclear war, right, you know what, you know, the briefcase and all that kind of stuff. That's kind of what you expect every president to get, you know, some sort of.

Briefing on right, yep. Another thing was access to Berlin that was a Cold War hotspot at the time, right.

Indanced in West Berlin, both in conflict, you know the wall there all that, yeah, of course.

And next was our invasion planes at Cuba and Vietnam wasn't on the agenda, so that's where their minds were at.

Now, Johnson.

Has a meeting about Cuba with some CIA people and someone representing the Joint Chiest of Staff, you know, and then to be probably M. George Bundy, there a couple others, and he just you know, they're trying to brief them on not invading Cuba, but just what's going on in covert operations and so forth, and he just tells them, I don't want nothing to do with it.

He's done with it. And at the same.

Time a day or this happened a few days after the assassination, this meeting, but there's a famous meeting the day after the assassination. It's Johnson has a meeting about Vietnam of Henry Cabot Lodge, Robert McNamar, Dean Russ, John mccoone right, And there's pictures taken of it and they show that to the press to show Johnson.

On the job. Well, in that meeting, there's no talk of escalation.

In fact, the second the ambassador, Henry Cabot Lodge, he's in the in the meeting, and he talks about the withdrawal plan and they might be able to be achieving it.

They might be able to achieve.

It, and you know, there's he makes out like everything is okay. When the meeting's over, Bill Moyers is standing outside. Who he's a people know of him as being on PBS or had been on you know, host on PBS for a long time. But but he came out of the Johnson administration. He was a Johnson crony, right and one of his best buddies basically, And he's staying outside the office and Johnson tells him, I'm gonna have to go to war in Vietnam because.

It's what the Kennedys are telling me to do. A complete lie.

This is a story, Bill Moyers tells. So either he's lying or Lennon Johnson's line.

Well, okay, but see here's the thing what they're doing for you know, the press photo is one thing, right, and the meeting they have there that this is still you know, all the Kennedy administration people are still in place, right.

I mean, Johnson takes his small team.

In, but he hasn't replaced anybody, not yet, not yet, right, So this is still dealing with the Kennedy administration just now.

President Johnson is ahead of it.

So whatever was going on, it would make sense that Kennedy's CIA director and Kennedy's other people went in and said, well what about this withdraw a plan and everything else.

So he's evaluating all this, which.

He should be doing, right.

And then a little while after this is when it's like, Okay, no, I'm not doing that, I'm doing something else. But he's going to war in Vietnam because that's what the Kennedys want.

That's what he's telling Bill Moyer's.

And then you know, after that meeting about Cuba I told you about, he sends a memo the Joint Chiefs of Staff want to meet him. Okay, that one guy told you sends this memo to Taylor. Taylor sends a memo about, you know, asking to meet, telling LBJ, we want to meet with you. He stalls and won't meet

Know, of course he is.

By then he's signed that NSM two seventy three right, which has been altered a.

Little bit to be from what Kennedy.

There's a draft before Kennedy's killed, and the one Johnson signs is.

Has more aggressive language in it.

Yeah, he signed that on Monday though, right, I mean Monday after the assassination.

So I mean it's happening fast.

It's happening pretty quick, right, you know, So Kennedy's dead on a Friday, that he's going into the ground on Monday, and.

He's signing this thing. Yeah, so that's what's happening.

See.

But but there you go all this, you know, talking about what the Kennedy's wanted, though it is a kind of a shrewd political move because.

If it's not the popular thing that.

People want done, if that wasn't the way to go, he can still blame it on his predece eser at.

That point, right.

Yeah.

So that's what I'm thinking is that that's what he was doing.

And that was the thing when we watched that PBS thing a couple of years ago, and you and I tried to do the review and we couldn't even get through it to do the whole review on here, is that they were making that case on there that. Look, you know, it's not Johnson's fault. He was just picking up where the Kennedys were going, and it's like, uh no, that's not what was happening there, you know, So I

Right, well, yeah, somewhat, yeah, Okay, that's that's a huge topic to through.

Well yeah, but with a few que a few key points, I'm sure you can get you for sure, you know.

And that's the thing here is, I don't think it takes everything.

It doesn't take the you know, it doesn't take all the documentation, all the meetings and everything to really boil it down. You know, all you have to do is take a look at the major things. Where would there have been a major move right, when would that have to have been discussed? Obviously he would have had to discuss it with his National Security Council, right, because anytime we're going to engage in a war. Our president needs to go over that with his National Security Council, I'm

Maybe I'm wrong, but that's the two main things.

And then of course you got to meet with the Secretary of Defense and tell him, look, this is what we're going to be doing, and this is what we're not going to do. So you know, look, he was writing out an agenda here. Now, whether it was his agenda or it was somebody else's, we could always try to sort that suss that out from what we see. But this idea that he was just picking up where Kennedy left off is ridiculous to my mind.

You know, Oh, it's completely ridiculous.

You know.

So, and that's the thing.

This is one of the main principles why I think it's worth it to pursue the assassination is because in my mind, the Vietnam War would not have happened had Kennedy lived. I don't think he was going there. It doesn't look that way to me. I've had more than one person argue that with me, you know, but the truth is, it just doesn't look like that's where Kennedy was going. If he had been re elected in sixty four, I don't think we would have had what Johnson did.

Da da da da dah.

Okay, probably not, but it was politically advantageous.

So were the Kennedys.

Really working on that or was that something that was just simply brought into play? And then sort of you know, it's there's a lot to be discussed there, and it's impossible to know definitively that Kennedy would or would not have done whatever, because he could have changed any day.

On what he was doing.

I get that part but the way it looks to me is.

That we wouldn't have the Vietnam War. It just would not have occurred. You know, the advisors were going to be removed. Everybody was supposed to be out of there by the end of sixty five, and I mean everybody. So that to me looks like we're out of there, you know, we're no longer involved in what they were calling what endo China in the nineteen sixty debates. Right,

You know, so what about that, Yeah, this is I just wanted to make people aware of it. It's called The Insurrectionist Beans.

Came out last year, right, and it's an academic book, you know, published by an academic press, written by a professor. It's not really about the Walker shooting you're trying to you know. He takes the stance at Osweald did it, but doesn't really go that deep into it, although he does note that the police they thought it was probably you know, when when a shooting happened, they were their prime suspect was one of the people associated with Walker.

The book is more a biography of Walker in his political views.

The way much history is written, you know, the way our minds work, people often will link something in the past to contemporary events, and that's what this guy's doing.

You know. He's taking the purpose of the book to.

Attack conspiracy theories by claiming that Walker is a precursor to stuff like the que People and those type of conspiracy theories because he was a John Bircher basically, but and he goes you know, it does go into detail about the.

Different ideas he had.

But I found it more interesting because I found out stuff about Walker as a person I didn't know before, and I got the impression so.

People who don't know.

He was a highly decorated combat veteran in World War Two and Korea.

He actually I didn't know this too.

I've read this book, but he was one of the people apparently that helped create the special forces in the army, and he was basically a special forces leader and Uh did some heavy combat stuff in the in the Italian campaigned on World War Two, and then was in Korea.

But after the Korean War, I mean this was real apparent to me from reading the reading a book.

And you know, when you see his career, he really didn't have many important positions.

He's cut. His career was kind of.

Winding down, and he was likely to be retired from the service because the way the military works, if you're an officer, if you don't get keep getting promoted, you end up getting uh eventually retired. And the most of the positions he was getting just weren't important anymore. So that could be because of his personality, which he does seem to be have been a strange person.

From the way he spoke.

He wasn't a good public speaker and his thoughts seemed to be disjointed when he wrote and spoke. He also was a homosexual, which would be a big problem at the time, and that's the person you know.

He had boys that were living with him in his house, kind of rotating in and out. And in the seventies he got in he got arrested twice for proposition police officers. Oh wow, so that's you know, I didn't know that stuff.

Well I didn't know about that.

No, that's news to me.

So that's kind of why he just vanished from the scene.

He was a big Bircher in a big you know, for a couple of years he was a pretty big public figure. He's on the cover of Time magazine now. And what he got famous for with the Kenny administration was a well couple of things, but it started he started to become a controversial figure. Right as Kenny got

Then he trained to try to run for.

Politics as governor of Texas in the primaries and got crushed. But when he did that, the hl Hunts, the Clinton Murchison's, the wealthy people that were financing a lot of right wing causes, they were backing him. But then when they saw him give a public speech in Dallas, it flopped.

Punched out a reporter when he was done testifying. Actually, so he's quite a character. And then right before.

The Cuban missile crisis, there is a huge riot in mississipp Be over integrating one of the colleges down there, and at least several people were shot. One person was killed, and Kennedy had to send in some officials that I don't think it was a National Guard, but some some Justice.

Department people, about one hundred of them.

And some of them got attacked by students and you know that they were angry about a black person being allowed to go to the college. Well General Walker was there leading the students, you know.

So after that happened the Kenny administration, I'm not saying I agree with what they did, but they had him basically arrested and evaluated to see if he was insane mm hm. And they're going to bring them up on charges and then they end up dropping everything. So the doctor, I mean, he was basically not simply evaluated, but jailed.

In a medical institution, right and the doctor, the psychiatrist, determined that he was not insane, and basically that, you know, and that in itself was a bit of a you know, a scandal among among the right. You're you're now calling people, you know, insane and putting them in medical institutions.

Right, So I mean I I.

You know, but anyway, that's the kind of stuff he was doing. But the other thing about it about him is he was a lot more connected to groups beyond the John Birch Society, the Minutemen, for example, some of the far right, or that's not the word for some of the more violent anti civil rights movements like the States what's called the States Rational States Rights.

Party, States Rights Party, right, and.

They were doing violence, you know, members of that were killing people.

So he was pretty you know, connected to a lot of stuff.

He wasn't simply a guy run around given rabble rousing speeches.

Well right, He was trying to work with a bunch of different organizations that were sort of on that side, that were agreeing with some of these things he was saying one way or another. But meanwhile he had this not so right wing lifestyle apparently going on.

I have a live.

Question, by the way, Yeah, sure, let's see I did, Okay, So the whole question is this or did the Joint chiefs tell Johnson he had to confront communism either in Cuba, Berlin, or Vietnam. Maybe that was the price to go along with the company line that Kennedy was shot by Oswald and everything is fine.

What do you think about that?

Is that is that something that might have been that you might have seen revealed here?

Well, I don't see that written on a paper, But I believe they wanted to go. I mean, it's clear they wanted to.

Go to Warren Cuba, Okay, And they also sent several memos during the course of the Kenny administration, you know, advocating escalation of Vietnam at different points in time. But I think they're more focused on going to Warren Cuba.

As a as a whole.

For example, after the Cuban missile crisis. I've looked at the Kennedy the tapes, the Kenny tapes, and from October till January nineteen October sixty two January nineteen sixty three, there's not a single meeting about Vietnam that Kennedy has the joint she's of staff until that January.

They're all about Cuba.

And you could see you know, planning documents and statements where you know it's recommended multiple times, not just once or twice.

Well, I'm always surprised also that Germany doesn't come up more often because there was all this tension between East and West Berlin and there were military actions that started to take place that could have escalated. I could have gotten out of control. You know, when people were shadowing each other over the wall, right there was this thing about tanks being moved too close to the wall at

Well, that that was in during the there's some twice or what were called the bl in Berlin Crisis. The first time was under Eisenhower. The second time was Kennedy, and that was in nineteen sixty one, after the Bay of Pigs. Kenny meets a cruise chef, and cruise chef basically that basically tells.

Him we're going to that he wants.

The Berlin had been a divided city, but the wall hadn't been put up yet, and it was hurting the Soviets because a lot of people were leaving East Berlin and going into West Berlin. And he wanted that stopped. He wanted the United States to recognize East Berlin, I mean East Germany and he was threatening war over this, and the crisis was settled by that staying off you talked about happened where these tanks were standing off with

So that crisis kind of faded away, but.

Kenny worried that it could still crop up again. A joint chiefs of Staff, you know, they just seem to be happy to maintain and as far as Germany went to maintain the status quo, which is what happened.

To the to the wall fell.

But when the Cuban missile crisis happened, Kennedy you can hear it in the meeting in the tape, you know, where he has with the Joint Jesus Staff. He expresses worry that if they move on, if the US invades Cuba does something, that khruse Chef will move on Berlin and LeMay just dismisses that and says, we have so much power.

Basically, they're not they can't do anything.

And Kennedy makes a comment that that this possibly could be with the wold things about UH And it turns out I think he was correct because he's thought about this other week when Khruseh Chef. We have books that tell the Russian side, and there was a historian that got hold of transcripts of the Soviet city and meetings. This is kruse Chef in his inner circle. It basically consists of cruise Chef telling these people what he wants

A crisis over it to try to get this Berlin thing changed in a way.

He wants to try to settle all the disputes he has with the United States. You know, he wasn't trying, He wasn't planning to shoot the missiles at the United States, but use them to try to make a giant negotiation, and obviously it didn't work. But to go back to what the person's asking, So I don't really think in nineteen sixty three, the military, the Joint Chiefs, the CIA whoever was really that interested in doing anything aggressive in Europe, but they were interested in Cuba.

In somewhat in Vietnam.

But all that said, when they had there's multiple times where le May says that the fact that what they're doing in Vietnam is a waste of time in the sense of trying to support South Vietnam with these counterinsurgency programs. They seem to have this view that we had a massive strategic advantage over the Soviet Union in terms of bombers and nuclear missiles and so forth, and that kind of gave us a free hand, if we so to speak, in their belief.

To invade Cuba.

And probably they thought the Russians wouldn't do anything or to get more aggressive in Vietnam, to bomb North Vietnam or even China, and they wouldn't do anything. That's what they thought they wouldn't do anything. Whether that's true is another question. But I think when Johnson comes in office, they mainly wanted to do Cuba, but instead he did Vietnam, or promise to do Vietnam, but didn't completely even fulfill his promise. And what I mean by that is they wanted victory in Vietnam.

They didn't want to go in.

There, you know, one hundred thousand people, and then another hundred, then another hundred. They wanted mass bombing in North Vietnam. You know, they they wanted to do much more than Lennon Johnson was willing to.

Do over the course of the several years.

And then once he got in there in December nineteen sixty three, there's this is in Stanley Carnal's book. There's a Christmas party and Johnson tells walks up to the Joint Cheese of staff members of it. I'm not sure which ones, but he tells them, I just need.

To get re elected.

Helped me get re elected, and then we'll go to warren Vietnam. He says, I'll give you your warn Vietnam, but he has to get re elected first.

Well like, yeah, sort of like that scene in JFK where.

Yeah, it's a direct quote from the from the book, from the Carnal book, that scene in JFK. So what happens though, He gets in there and they make plans, They engage in accelerated war planning for Vietnam, and.

Johnson sits on it.

In the situation in Vietnam does deteriorate South Vietnam. He sends a few more advisors over there, signs another memo in April or May, as you know, saying it's more and more of a priority, sending more and more men over there, but not one hundred thousand men.

It's more like twenty five thirty or something. And by this.

By May June, le May and the person who's now had, the Marine Corps are angry because they don't think Johnson's living up to his promise and he won't meet with them.

So le May has a meeting with.

Johnson's military advisor who I can't remember that I don't haven't run from me, so I don't remember the guy's name, but he inherits the same person Kenny has had, and le May in this other the Marine Corps general basically tell him, do you know this is a betrayal?

And what Johnson is doing is he's acting like Kennedy. That's what they tell him.

He's not going full on with this.

Yeah, they tell him this is worse. This is getting to be as bad as the Bay of Pigs, and le Base says, I'm not gonna do anything about it as long as I'm in uniform. But if he doesn't get going, if Johnson doesn't get going, he's gonna retire soon, and he's gonna speak out and just expose him. So, you know, then the Golf of Talking incident happens. Let me step back for a second. There's an incident at an army base or an air force base in Vietnam.

He doesn't do anything.

Till the Golf of Tonkin incident, and he just sends, you know, an overnight, you know, a couple of airplanes, not a big bombing campaign, shoot some bradar install a up and one of the pilots gets shot down and captured.

And uh.

And then there's another incident after the elections, just a few weeks later.

Then there's another incident similar.

To the Gulf of Talking, where a naval boat claims to be shot at and they ask him McNamara and George Bundy tell him to intervene or retaliate.

He won't do it.

He doesn't really do it, start escalating until the end of nineteen sixty four, early.

Nineteen sixty five. Then you know that there's a tipping point and it's all in.

Yeah, then it's all in after that. But yeah, there was a time period where it seemed like he was hesitating.

Yeah, he's dragging his feet, drag in. Not only not only was LeMay angry about this, right, but by the time of that second boat incident, which Johnson dismisses is probably a phony. He says, they're probably.

Shooting at fishing the water again, tells that to McNamara, Bundy and McNamara, which this is kind of Yeah, you wouldn't may not expect this, especially from McNamara.

They sent him memo angry at him for not escalating. So I think.

McNamara, I mean, I'm going on and on now, you know, talking about this stuff.

But I don't I think he was.

I think he was consistent from the day from the I think he's got consistent behavior from Kenny was president today. UHD left being Secretary Defense of trying to manage uh, the war situation without it getting out of control, trying to be an in between for the presidents and the.

And the military and trying to you know, have to make both sides happy. But you know, he had limits to how far you know, he would want to escalate things for sure.

So it seems like the military wanted escalation and retribution a lot quicker. They weren't getting that. And McNamara is trying to balance between the two places, you know, between escalation and not and and then this just goes on until after we get through the Gulf of Tonkin incident, and then we go to the dipping point after that.

See that's funny.

Because I never understood that there was a hesitation point in between. I thought that it was pretty much roll right in, you know, after the assassination as soon as sixty four comes. I'm thinking we kind of went in. But what you're describing is there is a significant in time period of delay here.

Well, the real all D moment.

I should have prepared to talk about this more, but it's in early nineteen sixty five. So one thing that happens with Vietnam is that the North Vietnamese they several multiple times, they'll think of the US is about to escalate, so we better escalate first, okay. And after the Gulf of Talking incident, that's what they really start to think, Oh, the US is really going to go and now right, we better throw everything we can down there down south.

US knows that, I mean, it's really about the collapse.

And then there's another incident at a military base where a bunch of Americans get killed and MC George Bundy flies over there, goes to the military base and it gets shelled while he's there. He's not really you know, insignificant danger. But he sends a memo back, almost in panic, and it's very long, very long memo outline outlining a

We may not be able to win, but we have to go to war anyway, huh.

And it doesn't and it's worth it if people die. That's what he basically says in this in this thing, and that's when they decide to do the Rolling Thunder right after this memo and uh and then you know, sending then starts sending hundreds of thousands of.

People over there.

So that's when it really escalates, is after.

Yeah, it's right after this memo is sent. And I'm sure you not to go back.

And you know, I know mc namara writes something, but nothing like this memo is really disgusting, you know when you when you read it, because.

It's basically that's what it says. You know, it's worth it even if we don't win. You know, it's like that's just real disgusting.

Well, it's pretty intense. And I've never never heard this before.

You know that this is the different stages it took place here.

I guess we didn't have a lot of these documents too long ago, right, I mean this is from new documentation, isn't it.

Well, this Bundy things, I mean it's been out there at least it's been out there a while really ten ten twenty years.

Oh, I wasn't aware.

I definitely we should do a show on that.

I should find it and read it to you, you know, read parts of it on the air, because it's yeah, that would be something else.

That would definitely be of interest, especially if that's really the ignition point here, then we should see it, we should hear it.

And there's an other memo.

What really got me interested in Vietnam was I just picked up random I got you know, the Pentagon papers, right, and I.

Just randomly now i'd read it.

I've always been interested in Vietnam since I was a kid, But I picked up the Pentagon papers and just randomly flipped to a page and there was a memo from a long memo from McNamara basically saying the same thing, not this thing, not not as directly as the Bundy one, but saying something like this is when they're first or sending the troops over, basically saying some of the fact that we can maintain this forever without winning or losing.

And I mean I was like, that's crazy. Well it would turned out not to be true.

No, definitely turned out not to be true.

But it also means that Dictainey didn't invent the hey we don't leave you know idea of warfare, right, Yeah, it would mean that maybe somebody else came.

Up with that a little earlier, But the Vietnam War should definitely be seen as different phases, you know, maybe every you know, and it continues like that. You know, the Vietnam War we think of that we see in movies or have had family members that were involved in. That's typically nineteen sixty seven, nineteen sixty.

Eight, that's the peak of Americans being over there, the peak of the draft, right, and then once Snixon gets in, they do wind the draft down and start to you know, have less people over there.

Oh yeah, that's when my father went in with sixty eight.

So yeah, you know, but wow, and that was when the worst casualties were for Americans too.

Well, right immediately after the.

You know, the the the strike there after the after the tet uh you know, the tet seaspire and then they you know kind of went on the holiday and attacked and overran a bunch of bases and all that.

Yeah.

Uh yeah, after that, I mean, there was massive casualties on the American side because they thought there was a seaspire and there was not, and they took really really hard losses right there in sixty eight.

Now, I'll tell you something else people don't know. So and again one of the possible possible things that happened.

Was, well, Lansdale goes back over there, I think in sixty seven, sixty six, sixty seven and the fellaw that leaks the Pentagon papers. Daniel Elsberg goes over there too, as a as a as part of Lansdale's unit.

You know, there's there's some they're not complete, you know.

He's not a complete CA guy, but you know they're quase CIA and they're trying to do counterinsurgency stuff and they were believers in the war.

Okay.

Now, Ellsberg when he leaks the Pentagon papers and throughout his whole life, and I like, you know, I like him as a public figure.

I like his books.

He's you know, been an important figure. I believe on he's dead now, but he's you know, an important anti war figure and has been up.

To the day he died.

But the story he tells is that you know, Nixon was going to escalate the war, he believed, and that's why he leaked the Pentagon papers to sabotage Nixon and prevent him from escalating.

And there's another possibility, and that is that.

Lansdale and Daniel Elsberg were in support of a figure.

In Vietnam who was one of the top South Vietnamese.

Counterinsurgency generals and was seen they thought of as a reformer and not as a corrupt person as much of the people were in South.

Vietnam, and they wanted him to be.

Somehow be positioned to be the South Vietnamese premiere, and they try to do suppose this is, you know, there's no hard proof of this, but there's a couple of books I've read that obliquely suggest that they were involved in a coup plot to get this guy in power, and it failed, and then they're basically pushed out of the country. And then when Nixon gets president, the guy that they wanted to become the premier he got arrested.

And imprisoned.

And the idea is that the fact that he got in prison caused Elsburg and a few others to simply lose all hope that Vietnam was redeemed, that South Vietnam the government was redeemable, and it was just so he just decided to leak these things.

Well, and it could be both are true that Dixon was going to escalate and this of you know, motivation too.

Well, yes, you there, you go. Look, it doesn't mean that only one thing here is true, right.

Uh.

It could be that on the one hand, Nixon was going to escalate this and Elsburg wanted to abotage that because he knew where that would go, and it had already been continued under you know, some pretty precarious pretenses already. You know, So what what were they going to do next, especially after taking those heavy losses, Because they had taken heavy losses in the sixty seven sixty eight you know, there's something to be said for that. But like you said,

Well, I mean just the beginning of the LBJ stuff. I'm not talking about the.

Whole war, right right, No, not the whole thing.

I'm just saying you know part of it though, Yeah, okay, great, Hey, look I'm looking forward.

To Oh it's gonna be great. People need to go.

It's not just about you know, my presentation. You know a lot of people are going to be there. You're going to be there, Yeah, no, definitely. Look I think Doug Campbell's gonna be there. David Boyling's gonna be there. That was a guest you had on that's right.

The other week. I think is B Pete coming?

I don't know if B Pete's coming, He may not be able to make it this time.

Larry will be there remotely, okay, you know, and there's gonna be lots of people that are that are present there. We're going to have that kid back again who was there. You know last year was the youngest person I ever saw presented at a conference, So he'll be back again. And also that kid Will o'hallerin that I had on the show, he's gonna go there too. He's like twenty something years old. I forget how old he is exactly, but you know he's going to be talking about medical evidence.

So I think that's going to be important.

It's gonna be gonna be a lot of good stuff there, and plus Yeah, if you go, you get to hang out with me on the twenty seconds, so November twenty second. And if you go to Assassination Conference dot com and use the code Ocelli ten and get ten percent off of your tickets. Whether you decide to go virtually or you're going in person, you can get your tickets there and get ten percent off.

So there you go.

Anyways, Mike, I'm gonna let you go on this because we've been about an hour on it, and I gotta say, man, this is really fascinating because I am learning something new every time you dig into Vietnam by the way, uh and uh, really I learned new stuff in your book and I love learning from you. Of course, Mike is

How about the why?

I think that's important too. But anyway, so all that having been said, guys, I'm gonna close this out.

And are people still able to sign up for your newsletter if they go to Wall Street Window dot com.

Yeah, they just Typewallstreet Window dot com. They can sign out there.

You go, If you go to Wall Street Window dot com, you can still sign up for Mike's newsletter. It might go down to once a week soon, and if it does, look it's still going to be packed with important information and all that, and it'll give Mike time to write, as he was talking about at the beginning of the show. So again I want to thank Mike Swanson for being with me and all of you for listening, because after all, I'm merely O'Kelly, and all of you are indeed the effect.

Have a good night, and we'll see.

You tomorrow night on the call in show.

And I got a story to tell tomorrow night.

You might.

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Building and trying to prevent the murder of John Kennedy.

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This is James Corbyn at corner Report dot com, and you're listening to the O'Kelly Affected o'helly dot com.

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