The Ochelli Effect 8-24-2023 Mike Swanson and Larry Hancock

The Chilly Effect is sponsored by Wall Street Window dot Com and listeners like, yeah, yeah, Olly, welcome to Thor's Day. I think it's the twenty fourth day in fact of August twenty twenty three, allegedly, according to that thing we call a calendar. And this is the Ocelli effect. I'm not even gonna say this is the show you're looking for anymore, because I don't know what you're looking for out there. It's getting confusing, as is

much of the rest of the world. But we're gonna straighten some of that confusion out tonight with the guy behind Wallstreet Window dot Com, the author of The War State and of course Why the Vietnam War, which is the first in a series of books on that conflict. In our one and lately I haven't been doing an hour or two, but tonight, you know, no

rules anyway, I'm just going to do things as they come. And it just so happens I got an old school o'chelli effect going on, because in the second hour, I've got Larry Hancock, the author and a very interesting guy in general. Learned about a bunch of things, and I'm not even fully certain about the topic that we're going to cover, but we are going

to get to some questions that we're asked. This week, two different people actually hit on almost exactly the same question, So there must be something going on in JFK Land. And I don't plan on covering JFK for that entire hour with Larry, so I guess we'll have to see what happens. And when it comes to Mike Swanson being the no go to Wall Street Window dot com, that's for sure. But I don't even know what the hell we're

gonna cover tonight. I mean, I guess I'll start off by asking Mike how he's doing, and then after that I'm gonna ask him about those debates, which I watched twice last night. One time I wasn't feeling too well and the second time I felt better. And I even recorded parts of it because I think we're gonna have to go over some of it tomorrow night, and I plan on doing that. So Mike, first of all, how you doing. You watched it twice? I watched it twice. Mike,

are you going crazy? Yes? Anyway, well you got crazy after watching it twice. If you weren't crazy before, well, it was actually kind of entertaining. Now, you confessed to me before we went to air that you watched part of it. Glad to talk to you, by the way, or are you gonna be on next week? I do need to know

that, by the way, I'm not exactly sure right now. It's okay because it might be a really interesting week If you're not on next week, there might be some interesting stuff that we're gonna have to discuss when you come back. It's just there's some stuff that I understand that's supposed to happen that people include me in on that you and I are gonna have to discuss. That's all I'm gonna say about it. It's this stuff that's gonna come up

in the news. Uh. And of course I don't know anything about Donald Trump's surrender in Georgia right now. I had a little line in on that because he was supposed to surrender, and I was not checking it because I was having other phone calls before the show. But far as I know, has Trump surrendered? Do you know? I was? I mean, I rarely watched the news, but I did watch that debate a few for a few minutes last night, and I was flipping through the TV and they were

showing the jail in this Fulton County, Georgia. It's jail, you know, a helicopter shot or a balloon shot or whatever the shots coming from. Maybe it's a drone or a spaceship, but it's a shot, probably an overhead shot. And they're just showing the shot on Fox, on CNN, on an, MSNBC, all news stations in every building. And they said that he had to go in there and he was. I watched MSNBC and he's gotten two lots. Yeah, he's gotten Friday. They were cheering this

very excited, and then on Fox they were saying it's a setup. He's

being victimized. That Congress is gonna hold a probe. This guy Jim Jordan's probing, uh seriously into it, and he's gonna probe and he's gonna find out, of course, if the DA is somehow associate a Biden, Right, And that's what was on Fox, and then on the MSNBC they're celebrating, well yeah, and then and then of course you had the big debate last night, right, So you had the big debate and oh wait a minute, you don't really go on Twitter anymore, right, you said you're

not gonna go on Twitter anymore. Well, my Twitter is malfunctioned. I haven't done a Twitter post in twelve months. Really. After he bought it, I stopped using it. I used that as excuse to shut off my Twitter. Mike, Mike, you're not supposed to And then Mike, wait, wait, wait, you're not supposed to tell people you're making an excuse if you're making an excuse though, Well, that's what I did, and

it's improved my life not to use it as much. But then, you know, sometimes you see links to Twitter and then and then I'd click the leak and then I'd see what people are doing on their Twitter. Okay, And now all of a sudden, when I clicked these links, I can't see it. I can't see anything really, and I can't log in to see it. So have you kin? Have you been out? Have you been banned from Twitter somehow? And you don't know it. Now they're asking

for more information. I just don't want to give it anymore. Oh okay, look like they want my phone number now. Well what's weird is yeah, they want the phone number now, and I got I only recently got a phone, you know, that. So I didn't even have a phone

for the longest time. I actually have a blue checkmark on there. Now you paid for that word, you earn it somehow, well, a little column a little column B. Because for years they would not grant me the blue check mark where you had to confirm your identity and all this kind of

stuff. Uh, and you also had to be a person of interest, you know, somebody was a public figure, and technically speaking, I'm a public figure because I do this publicly, right, So yeah, for a long time they wouldn't grant it to me, and now they have and uh yeah, okay, so he's got me for eight bucks a month, but I actually got you still don't necessarily, even if you pay them, you don't. You're not guaranteed that blue check you know that, right, I

have no idea. Well, I mean, honestly, the reason why I bring up Twitter, though, Mike, let me let me, let me just stop me for scon. The reason why I bring up Twitter is because you know, the counter programming was on Twitter last night Trump. Oh yeah I didn't. I couldn't see it. Okay, Well, I'm figuring somewhere they might have distributed the video elsewhere by now. But last night it originated from Twitter. Now, some people said it was going to be a live

broadcast. It was not, because the moment that the debate started, they already had it up there. And I'd already heard from a fairly reliable source that that it was recorded ahead of time, because you know, whatever reason. But anyway, it was recorded ahead of time. It was ready to go. I'm sure it's been edited because there was some edits that had to go on. It's only forty six minutes, which is a weird time span

for you know, him to counter program the debate from last night. And I'm I'm planning on going into the debate tomorrow night on the call in Show and I'm gonna play clips and yeah, that's what we're gonna talk about tomorrow night, for sure. And that's what I plan on doing, because I'm getting sick of the call in show going off the ram anyway, Sorry, goad, this guy Tucker Carlson. I can't I type Trump and on my Google Trump Tucker Carlson because I want to see ye if I can bring the

video up. I don't think I can. I think you may have to actually only watch it on Twitter. But anyway, I didn't know that. I mean, I didn't know that's where it was going to be. Years old, you know, Oh, Tucker Carlson. Tucker Carlson, he's fifty four. Oh okay, I didn't know his age. But okay, now I thought he was a lot older than that, did I. I mean, it's really crazy, he seems because he's been around for so long. I'm forty eight. I always thought he was a lot older than me.

I thought so too, and man, it just turns out he's only fifty four years old. Yeah, something's wrong with that. That doesn't sound like to me because that only makes him three years older than me. And that's not scared. That can't be. It's scary because he was on what was that show where he used yell at each other was a cross cross Fires And that was years ago. That wasn't like just you know, a ten year so he was just a kid when he was on Crossfires. I guess.

So let me see if I can find another link to that video or something, because anyway, that counter programming went on, the debate went on. Which part of the debate did you watch? By the way, Well, I was watching a real important baseball game, and then between the commercials, I would flip on to the debate. Oh so they went to commercial and you're like, all right, let's go see what's going on on the Yeah, and then and then I would watch and then you know, the games

slowed down, they're changing pictures. You know, you don't have to watch every moment of baseball game. So I probably watched thirty minutes of the of that of the debate. You know which thirty minutes wasn't like at the beginning or the end or what i'd like, the middle, right when they started to write before like I saw the beginning of it, Uh, maybe the first hour. Let's say, bits and pieces of the first hour. And

honestly, I'll just my opinion for whatever it's worth. I'm not when I say this, it doesn't mean I like these people or I'm going to go vote for these people. But I really thought that Chris Christie and Pence, from what I saw, did the best. I thought Pence did really well and he didn't need a fly on his head or anything. Well, the problem with a better job this time, Yeah, no, he did a

way better job this time. But the problem with Pence is that he was very dismissive of other people in their ideas and was very much stuck on the whole Look, you know what, I was constitutionally correct, and this time Pence was right, was right? Stupid? Well most of what I've say you think you think so much. I mean, look, it was entertaining, Mike. Let me tell you. I don't want to blow all my comments out of water with you tonight because I got a whole thing tomorrow to

do. But I'm telling you it's something what went on there. One thing I'll say about it. So yeah, even though you know, I bet, I mean I do. Look I look at the news in the morning basically, and I look, I'm looking at it. I look at it on the internet. I read the news tedline, right, And that's why you send out that and you send out those emails early in the morning, like what was that? So so I'm I look at the stuff real early and then I'm done typically and I don't look at the TV news at all.

And the thing about this debate, you know, I've I've seen Pence speak before, and Chris Christie and Nicky Haley and uh Tim Scott, the two of the characters. I don't know who they were. Well, Asa Hutchinson his one, Yeah, that was. There's some other white guy. I don't know. He had one guy I don't know. He's what was the former governor of South Dakota North, one of the Dakotas. Yeah, weird. And then they had this Indian guy that is real popular on the

internet, but I've never seen him. Yeah, Romy Swammy, right, Romy Swammy, which is the way they were pronouncing his name. I hope that's right. Romy Swammy. Is interesting because he's the guy who was picked up in the polls the most. You know, and you've seen the Santists before, and yeah, I've never that's the first time I've ever listened to the Santists. Really, I've never I've seen the interview with him. I mean, you see his name over the place, but I've never watched an

actual interview with him. I've never heard him speak ever, and I wasn't very impressed. I don't understand what everyone's been excited about. You you know, yeah, I don't either. I just don't get it. The only good point that he made it himself last night too, is that, look, these are old guys. I'm a younger guy, and maybe I have different ideas because these guys have tried stuff, and obviously a lot of what they're saying has already been tried, and I think we need new stuff,

we need new ideas. Silly. I mean, if that's the argument, well we should just get someone that's eighteen, Well we don't need somebody who's eighteen necessarily. But I mean, look, the seventy year old guys have already been there and have already tried most of the same crap. I mean, they repeated over and over again, We're just gonna cut some more taxes and yeah, okay, we've found that we've heard all this stuff before.

Well yes and no. Because it was kind of funny to me, you could definitely tell that there was a big influence, uh in you know, from twenty sixteen on, from the Trump behavior patterns and the fact that he would interrupt and he would cut off the you know, the moderator. The moderators lost control of this thing though. Within about ten minutes, Indian interrupting

everyone. Well okay, now that's the way you see it. But the way I see it is they were tripping over each other, interrupting each other and interrupting the moderators, and yeah, you would have caught it. Well, it was little, Well, it was really quite a patternator. You take a look at, like, say, the the headline from the Hill earlier today, right the early morning when you were collecting your stuff, what

did the Hill call it? The they you know, boiled it down to their headline like this Republican debate recap, gop rivals, trade insults, Trump talks with Tucker, you know. And that's the thing is, no matter what, even though he wasn't on the stage, he's still attached every news article. I'm telling you, it's the same pattern, by the way,

where the media is going to shove this guy down your throat anyway. It doesn't matter if Trump shows up, if Trump is arrested, if Trump's indicted four more times, no matter what, they're going to include him in the coverage. They're going to include him in each one of these things. They're gonna keep shoving him at everybody, Okay, because that's just the way it is. It's gonna be. They're just getting ready, they're doing the prep

work to do the twenty four seven Trump coverage again. Okay, and we've already seen this in two Well, select about that is. I read that the debate had million people watch this, but it was half as many as watched the first debate the replicants had in the last election. Right, So I don't think. I don't think as many people are going to tune in this time around as I did the last two times. And that doesn't just go for the Republicans but the Democrats too. I think a fewer people are

going to be as engaged in watching all this mess. Well, I don't think anywhere the last two times. Well, first of all, I don't think hardly anybody's gonna throw if there is any Democratic debate, because who knows if there's gonna be any. But even if there was, it's gonna be a snooze fest. We all know this, So nobody's going to tune in for that. I'm telling you, Look, this is very easy, and

you're gonna think I'm nuts until you see these ratings later. All right, So twelve point eight million viewers from what I understand, tuned in last night, So I was one of twelve point eight million according to their estimations. Now, problem is, yeah, it's about half of what Trump was pulling when they had the pile of debate. You remember all those guys they had,

I don't even remember how many. When Trump was there and they had all what was it the lady that was talking about how a cannabis leads to drug overdoses or whatever, and of course Chris Christie was there again, and they had Jeb Bush and all that. Right, more people were tuned into

that. And I think the assessment that the media companies are making here because I'm willing to bet if you take a look at who watched the Tucker Carlson thing out of the gate, you know, and went there and somehow thought he was going to go live at the same time as the debate, which he didn't. It was actually posted just before the debate got rolling, when they were still doing their preview shows, okay, and it was already forty

six minutes long. It's how you know it was prerecorded? Look twelve point eight million. And what they're saying is a whole missing contingent is probably and I think they're right. The people. So if you are a Trump supporter, you don't care about these guys. These guys are not auditioning to be vice president these guys are not you know what are they? They're the non

Trumpers. Screw them, that's the attitude of a true Trump supporter, right, So they're not tuned into Fox that night in particular, they accidentally tune over there and go, oh crap, they're replaying this anyway, and they wait for the morning, okay, or they go to the Fox YouTube channel

and watch stuff that's already happened. You know why, because no Trump, no ratings, And you know what, I think all of the networks are going to figure this out if they don't already know it, which being facetious, they already know this. This guy is a marketable strategy. He's a business model in and of himself. He is a constant content generator that, if you choose to focus on him, will create the need for viewers.

They're watching his arrest, they're watching his preparation per arrest. They're watching as he had his new Jersey club. Here's the motorcade. Like you said, they got a drone. Hover and look at the prison. Look at the jail that they might bring him to, even though nobody would hardly ever pay attention to that jail because it's in terrible shape, there's like mold and all. I don't know if you saw it. Was it like a month ago they found a dead guy in there so chewed up by bugs. They couldn't

believe it. Who you know, because there was bed bugs and everything else eating the guy. Yet, conditions not good in the county jails or any of the jails in Georgia. Okay, it's not the it's not the comfortable rest homes with cable TV that a lot of people make make jails out to be. Not in Georgia anyway. I think the equations pretty simple. You have Trump, then the main clown is at the circus. You'll have viewers. Well, I'm looking at the odds that betting website we've spoken about before

Republican nomination. I haven't checked that out, Yeah yeah, yeah, what what? What is? What is that called? Began to tell me about it? Tell me I haven't. I haven't looked at it. What's the name of that site again? Predicted Predicted? That's right, Predicted dot com. Now they won't accept my ID, so I can't bet over there. But it's a great little look into the odds on things. So you're you're in disbelief at the numbers you're seeing, Mike, share them with us.

Tell us what the odds makers are telling us about the Republican nomination and such. Please, Well, first of all, Mike pitts, yes, he only has a three percent chance of getting the Republican nomination, and his his you know, three cents to win a dollar every three cents, Yep. All you gotta do is yep, it's a three percent chance. And it

only went up a penny in the last twenty four hours. Despite that's right, and despite his great performance in the debate, the best performance Mike Pence has ever done in a debate, and it only went up a penny. Yeah, that's about what it's working it. Christy did Greig too, He was right, has dropped a penny. His odds are for sets. Okay, look, I can explain both of those odds, and I think this predicted website is on point, dead on. I'm gonna tell you why.

Pence the best things that he did was regurgitate old ideas and stick to the old values of like I mean, it's like a rewind, it's like eighteen nineties. Did it better than ever before? He looked confident. Yeah, because if you're comparing it to old Mike Pence. Look, it's easy. You know, a dog turd is better than zero on the scale, right because at least the dog turd you can turn into something. So this time

he delivers a dog turd. This is not worth anything. It's not going to move an independent motor to present to them the old tired, already beaten ideas from the GOP. It's not gonna be so good God in country, and I believe and being honest, and you're not moving anybody's needle. If you were already looking for a boy scout, you're already on Mike Pence's side. And most people don't want to boy scout. Okay, so guess what. He's not going to move the needle. He's not going to be vice

president again because he's seen as a betrayer by the Trumpers. So even if Trump is eliminated from the race, the best thing he is is a dinosaur, an antiquated idea. Mike Pence, who was younger than a lot of the candidates that have been out there and still does not appear to be all that. Yeah, take a look at it. I'm not sixty. Yeah, he's sixty four. But that's what ten years younger than Biden or Trump? Right, So okay, more, look, whatever point is Mike Pence

has nothing new to offer. Mike Pence is if you generated you know, if you if you asked chat GPT to create a political candidate based on GOP standards from from you know, the nineteen nineties, they might spit out Mike Pence if you add the word albino into the equation. Okay, because a white haired dude with white skin and give us those values that everybody used to pretend to support in the nineties. That's Mike Pence period. Okay, So how is that? How does that play now? Uh? Mike Swanson okay,

not Mike penns How does how does that play anymore? The old Republican values, I mean just objectively in your mind, because that I mean, I know you might hold some of them, but nationally among the people that claim to be conservatives, the people that claim to be Republicans, how do those old values from the nineteen nineties seem to hold up today? Just open question. Well, he did a good job of the debate. Is this the part where you don't want to admit that my crazy ass ideas are probably

right? Is it is that this part just yeah, things are a lot different now than than they were. Yes, they are, and the nut that I am, it turns out I'm going to be right. Now. Watch this Chris Christy, I'm gonna tell you why nobody likes him. First of all, fat well, you say anything. I've just gotta tell you though. Okay, I don't know that much about what he did as government New Jersey. I do, go ahead, But when he's on that stage, he looks like a human being. He doesn't look like he's acting or

doing as you know, as weird as the others. He looks more like he looks the most out of all these guys, he's actually genuine, a regular person. He's genuine. That is who Chris Christy is. Who you saw on that stage. Makes me like him more than these others. Rod DeSantis was a weirdo, and I've never seen him before speak you know, I never paid it, I never watched him on TV. I've never seen him. Well, before you move, ont shock, wait, before you

it's so big and he's so strange. Okay, look before you move on to DeSantis or anybody else, let me address. Christ Come on me, give me, give me a shout at it. Look, first of all, the guy's heavy. Nobody likes the heavy guy all right, because it automatically indicates to a lot of people a bunch of psychological signals. That's one problem. The second thing is, since Woodrow Wilson, nobody wants to put a guy from Jersey in the White House. Okay, and with good reason.

Look, this guy is a quintessentially New Jersey kind of guy. We have to admit this. Those of us who were born in that area of the country, we're not likable. At best. We are appreciated as part of the freak show when people go to the tanning salon and want to give themselves, you know, names like the situation. Okay, that's it. And those people are not from Jersey. Okay, Like that's what I'm telling

you. Even the things that people think around the country that are from Jersey or not from Jersey, those people are from Long Island and Pennsylvanian crap. They're not even from Jersey, but they are the characterization. They are the cartoon of what people think of as people from Jersey. Chris Christy last night acted like a guy from Jersey. Nobody likes it. They don't like it. They booed him, they didn't like it that he took on Trump even

though Trump wasn't there. And he goes, look, let's be honest, this guy's hanging over everybody, and you guys are just kissing up to him right now, and they were, they were genuflecting the Trump during this debate. Oh, I just want to make it very clear that you know, even though he's not here, I do still support him. Of course, we're going to support whatever candidate. You know, we signed the loyalty pledges

of course, of course. You know, Chris Christy almost signals to yeah, I signed a loyalty pledge, now making me You know, what are you gonna do? You're gonna make me follow through on it? Good luck? Chris Christie's attitude. He's a Jersey guy. Jersey guys are not actually likable. They're entertaining the people, but they're not likable. Nobody's gonna trust him. Plus he comes off as, yes, a human being, because that is him, but it also looks a little corrupt to a lot of

parts of the country. Yeah, well he might not be like Okay, let's just say what you said. It's true because he's a New Jersey guy and he's fat. People don't like it. Well when you compare him to the others, he comes off good when the others look like seem to be crazy or freaks. To you and me, that comes off good. But here's the thing. You know, if you wanted normal, if you wanted calm, if you wanted a genuine person, why would any of these guys

have gotten voted for in the past couple of decades? Seriously, I mean you mean to tell me that everybody legitimately believed that, you know, come on, don't I don't want to go at it. I mean, which which which president do you want me to go? After? That was you know, popular for a moment. These guys were not coming off with genuine ideas. We're not really humanizing themselves ever. So you know, they don't

want that. They don't want it. In general, people don't want that, and they clearly don't want a guy who is going to be realistic and say, look, this is no good. What's gone on here is no good, and we need to shake some things up, and we need to get things straight, We need to clean up some of this mess, and we need to admit that. You know what, everybody wants to attack Joe Biden, and everybody wants to attack the Democrats. But the thing that was

shocking and also got him booed Chris Christie. And here's the real Achilles heel is he goes, Look, Republicans got to take some responsibility for this too, because they were there. Yes, it's true, but you know people that are waiving that flag and screaming, no, we are the only good people. The Democrats are evil. They are you know, they're baby killers and they're everything else. And if they are the ultimate evil and we are

the only good thing on the planet, you can't be smearing us. You can't even begin to contradict or go against the magic are in front of the name, right. You gotta stick together. See, that's the thing. That's the thing. So he criticized Republicans, he criticized Trump. He lost the parts of the crowd that might have had sympathies for Trump. He lost the part of the crowd that says, nope, no matter what we do, Republicans are right. He lost those people right away. So he shot

him open the foot as per usual, and that's what he does. He's not gonna win. Nobody's gonna move that needle. His needle didn't move, or if it did move a little bit, a little bit, right, So that's like no movement. I mean, come on, what's the margin of error there? You think with the odds it's a plus or minus nothing. Now you go into De Santis. De Santis is a different guy now to you and me, Yes, go ahead, Oh, to you and me, he's weird, okay, but he's had lots of popular traction nationally.

Why culture wars the fact that he's like, absolutely, we are going to protect the gender specific sports. Well, I'm gonna tell you a gun about him. Yeah, he's forty four years old. He's younger than us, Yes, he is. I thought he was older than us too, despite that hair dude he is. Yeah, and that hair dude is straight up out of like. I mean that that reminds me of like Jimmy Swagger

and those guys when they had their hair. He's sixty. He looks like what somebody in the would have been sixty years old in Ronald Reagan's era. Yeah, well he looks older than Tucker Carlson. Tucker Carlson's fifty four.

Yeah, right, exactly today. But you see the hair doing everything, the presentation, the suit, the whole thing is like a nineteen eighties older guy who is looking a little younger because you know, nobody knows he actually dies his hair and he makes sure his suits pressed right and all of that. He's the nineteen eighties older looking guy. And meanwhile he's only in his forties. He's a young guy. He's forty four. But you see, he can't come off too young as a conservative. That that always is a

bad mix. So he comes off with more maturity. He is winning, and the only reason why he's holding anything in the polls is the culture wars. This guy is willing to battle the evil Disney Corporation. This guy is willing to really stick it to the Libs. So there is his victory. That's a lot bigger than anything Chris Christy said or did. That's a lot

bigger than anything Mike Pence can try to do. Because Mike Pennz goes, well, let's just stick by and let God guide us, and I will be the man who makes sure that the Billy Graham rule is followed at all times. And I cannot possibly be alone with a woman, and I wonder why that is, But come on, Mike Pence is like a literal meat puppet, Okay, And somebody just stuck the tape in the back of you know, meat puppet Teddy ruck spins back, got meat puppet geo p Teddy

Roux spins back and played him a tape from the eighties. This is throwbacks. This is the throwbacks to the Reagan era. These values don't even count among the Rara Republicans at this point, who were booing and cheering for certain things. Did you notice the crowd reactions that were weird? You know, somebody says something somebody liked, and you hear the ladies in the back whoo. It was like a Girl's Gone Wild soundtrack in the back of that joint.

That's not normal for a publican convention or a debate, at least not in the past. This is a different era. De Santis is only holding the interest of voters because of the perception that he is a culture warrior on the conservative side. He's battling abortion, he's battling liberal stuff, he's battling political correctness, he's battling the critical race theory go ahead of these odds. Though his odds have dropped right two cents, they're fourteen cents. That makes

perfect sense. He basically diet't move of all that much either, not at all. But that's the only thing, because that's the only thing he's got. He's one dimensional. Other than that, now, here's going to be a key issue when you get around everybody else. There are key issues that are going to happen here that really are game changers. And it's not the culture wars. The culture Wars is something you better sign off on. If you want Republican support, period, you have to be on that side of

it. Even if you say to yourself, well, look, I don't think it's that big of a deal. I'm not that worried about drag queens. I don't really care about. If you do that, then you're on the side of the pedophiles. You are scumback. That is the only way. The majority of the GOP is c and this I'm telling you, I know how this works. Look, I just go ahead. It's it looks.

I watched it twice to make sure I saw what I saw. I was in Las Vegas, Uh, I mean, I watched it twice, and I had an encounter with a drag queen that is closer than any of these people got to one. Mike, are you about to make a weird confession here on this show. Don't don't do that, please, No. No, all that happened, I got it. Don't say it like that. No, no, listen, don't say it like I had a weird encounter with a drag queen. That is not a good sentence. I just

got an elevator and this Mikes was in the elevator too. Okay, you're you're you're my friend. I'm breaking your balls, you know that, right? Okay, I'm just saying that there's a what's the word for it, Yeah, across across across a cross dresser, I guess. Okay, fine, So somebody who was a somebody who was a male dressing like a female one way or another. They were in the elevator, and uh, I didn't know they were going to be an elevator, but they were in the

elevator, and I got an elevator and then nothing happened. I got out of the elevator. You know, nothing happened. I wasn't scared. That's what I'm trying to. That's why I bring it up, Mike. Mike, it doesn't sound here. Okay, But Mike, it doesn't sound good when you're saying nothing happened, nothing happened. That almost sounds like Eddie Murphy. Okay, don't do that, you know, Eddie Murphy, remember that scared. I just picked a guy. I gave him a ride. I

don't know what happened. I didn't know. I just I gave a person a ride. I don't know, Mike. I'm making jokes here, but look, I'm telling you there are people that are very hung up on that. Silly and yeah, but they're hung up on it like you've got to battle these people. These people are destroying society, like it is a primary concern of some people's. Okay, So if you don't signal that it is

very concerning, you can't win the GOP voter. You cannot win the Republican voter, because yeah, but you have to be that's the hot spot on the boogeyman right now. Though. See, you don't have communism to contend with, because nobody, you know, really stresses on Chinese China being communist, and you don't have the worldwide communist block, right, So you don't have a big boogeyman that you can point to and you know, tell us

about the invisible enemy that you don't see. These people are visible and they're here and this is the you know, the domestic culture war that has to take place. So DeSantis is only holding onto the percentage that he has because of that. That's his only reason for it. But when he it's you start asking him about foreign policy, you start asking him about how to actually do stuff, and he says, well, I've been the governor of Florida

and I've done a good job. Okay, but that's not the same question that you're being asked when it comes to these other policies. So Desantist doesn't have a lot of answers. Now. The reason why he has pulled higher is just the culture wars. Move on to the next person in your order there on your mind, Mike, because before we get to I hope it's not romy swammy, because I really hope you save him for later. But go ahead, Well, I skipped over Tim Scott. He's at four cents.

Yeah, you know why Haley went up two cents. He's at eight cents now. Hang on, you know why he skipped You know why he skipped over Tim Scott because he's boring exactly, Thank you, Nicki Haley. Move on. Yeah, but I will now where I live, I didn't see this comment. I'm just gonna make this one comment about Nicky Haley. Where I live, I noticed the head of the local Republican party made a comment about the debate and said that Nicki Haley attacked Tim Scott. I didn't

see that part of the debate. This person said he attacked her, and they made note of the fact that when she was governor of South Carolina, she actually appointed him to the Senate, so she put him in office, and therefore, by attacking him, she's also attacking her own, you know, decision that she had made. So, okay, I get that point. But here's the thing that came up a couple of times, as these guys who had experience in the Congress one way or another, either in the

House of the Senate. I guess, uh to what Tim Scott was a senator? Was was Mike Pence? He's a senator. Pence was in the I think Pence was only a congressman. I believe. Okay, Well, either way their time in the Congress, let's just loop it together. And you know, they were like, well, we were able to do this, and we were able to do that, and these guys were ready for

it. And Nicky Haley went after him on a couple of things that happened under their watch that don't sound like what they're saying today, Okay, which is fair. It's fair. I don't think Nicky Haley got mad until somebody said, well, you know, basically, when somebody went, well,

screw Ukraine, we shouldn't be sending them money. Somebody said that, and that's set Nicky Haley off because she went into a whole thing about you're the kind of guy who doesn't support Israel and doesn't support Ukraine and doesn't support our allies, and you can't just do that and be an isolationist because it doesn't

work. She went into her whole thing to defend and prop up her the idea that she is well aware of how to deal with things internationally in foreign nations because she had been appointed to go and deal with the UN under Trump. Okay, So that's what that's about. It's not just about her time as governor or. Well, who she appointed her anything else. That was her attempting to assert herself as listen, I've got experienced dealing with these complex

geopolitical issues, dealing with our adversaries and our allies. That's what she attempted to assert. And on her way through there, she wanted to give a quick smack across the nose to both Mike Pence and Tim Scott and somebody else who was like had zero experience, where she was like, you don't even know what she's talking about. You never dealt with anybody. Shush. And that was pretty funny to me because that was the theme of the night starts

to emerge here, which is everybody's not trying to do a debate. They're not paying attention to the moderators half the time, not even paying attention to the questions. They had this rule there at the beginning where they said, if you're directly addressed by another person, then you'll be given a few minutes to respond, but otherwise you gotta wait to be called on. That rule went out the window. Bret Bear was not an effective moderator, and neither

was Martha McCallum. They both dropped the ball there immediately and never picked it back up. It was very messy, very sloppy, and the only thing that held them back is occasionally they had these these twinges, these pings of the way that you used to do this with decorum and and and you know, with some sort of order to it, where you waited your turn to

speak. They seemed to fall back into that pattern for a moment or two, and that gave them enough pause that the moderators could stick themselves in. And there were several times that these guys are going, wait a minute,

wait a minute. We were supposed to be controlling this. And even at a certain point Brett Bair and Martha McCallum hadn't turned to the crowd and be like, you know, the longer you sit there cheering and booing behind us and making all that noise, we're not going to get to as many questions if you keep doing that, audience. I don't know if you caught that

part, but they had to do that. My point is the the the culture in the atmosphere is not relatable to anything previous to twenty sixteen, when Trump behaved the way he did, when the GOP candidates behaved the way they did before Trump was the uh was the only guy who was going to get the nomination. When they did that, they changed the rules. They just that's as I'm looking at the clock and just to jump to the go to go to the next one. Gun Swammy, Ramy Swammy yep, which almost

sounds like somebody's being racist when you say it. Now, Look, I don't want anybody to think I'm being racist if you're not familiar with the guy's name or anything, because Ramy Swammy almost sounds like one of those dismissive you know, yeah, haji whatever when people would say that about anybody from India. But no, I the guy answers to Ramy Swammy. That's his last name. Interesting guy seems to be younger. Go ahead, tell me about

him. What you thought. Well, I wasn't impressed. And then in the morning when I looked at the headlines, it said that he was the winner, that they had these focus groups that watched it and they said he was the wayer. Know. What I saw was a guy that had funny makeup and was just acting like Donald Trump, saying stuff that Donald Trump would say if he was there, but he wasn't there. So this guy was

there acting like him. That's what I saw. Yeah, he tried to pick up the Trump, but he did not Listen, I gotta tell you, he did not out Trump Trump. He did not replace Trump. Well, if that's what he was attempting to do, he failed. But I could see how you could think that that was what his intention was. But it wasn't done well. He tried to be very dismissive of other people, and he doesn't seemed like a jerk. And he's got no experience or nothing.

Yeah, of course, and the guy, you know, he's thirty eight. But but see, here we go. What experience did Donald Trump had when it came to anything related to government outside of you know, buying politicians and outside of you know, being a guy who manipulated politicians. What experience did Donald Trump had with government? That's their answer. See, they love him. He gave the you know, look, he made the tax breaks. The economy wasn't this bad under Trump, Bubba, So you know,

here it is the guy with no experience did better. Now the logic should be, hey, your experience doesn't count for anything. That was the attitude he went in with, and he tried to sell that. I don't know if he really tried to ap Trump Trump, because if he did, he failed miserably. But if his assertion was, hey, look, the guy who is not entrenched in politics might be the better choice, because at

least I'm not one of these politicians. At one point actually said I think he was the one who said it, you know, since I'm the only guy on this stage who wasn't bought and paid for. Literally, I don't know, did you catch that? Yeah? A couple of times. Well, you know, I wanted to applaud at that one. But is he a guy who has not bought and paid for? It remains to be seen. I don't know, because who the hell knows who he is. He even said, look, I know, you guys think I'm just a guy,

an Indian guy with a funny name, a skinny guy. I think he said, yeah, that wasn't my problem. I think he's an Indian guy that looked funny, yeah, and was trying to pretend like he's Donald Trump. That's what I think. That's the way you But I'm telling you, he said, you know, who is this skinny guy with a funny name? That was not our problem, chief though, you know, I mean, I mean to address romy Swammy directly here, that's not our problem.

Here the way he can If I want hill Donald Trump, I'm voting for Donald Trump. I'm not voting for a guy that just wants to pretend he's Donald Trump, Right, I got you, No, at least Donald Trump. I don't want to vote for Donald Trump. I'm not going to vote for this clown. Yeah, well you know that's that simple. Look, why you know, if I want to eat, you know what I'm saying. No, you're not giving your money. I'm gonna You're not gonna

give your money to the cover band. Look, if you want to go see, Okay, the Black Sabbath Reunion, you're gonna go see that. You're not gonna go see the guys playing Black Sabbath songs at the local bar. Because if you're gonna go all in on it, you might as well go in on the real thing. This guy's not the real thing. He comes off as completely disingenuous. I don't care what his name is. I don't care if it's a funny sounding name or not. Although Ramy Swammy,

as I said, sounds like a dismissively racist thing, it's not. That's the way he pronounces his name, but the guy comes off as too fake. So that's all there is to him. Now, what did you think of Haley? What did you think of Wait? We covered Haley, didn't we? Yeah? We did, now covered all of him? No we won we well, we didn't cover g he's on here. I guess this is the guy that Doug bergamun yeah, right, yeah, I had nothing to say, but that's the guy from South Dakota or whatever, right or

yea somewhere. And then also on the side list, and he wasn't at the debate. Is the governor of Virginia, Glenn junk He hasn't announced, and he you know, but he's always teased. Is he might enter? He might enter, I don't, who knows. So godds of Donald Trump getting in Republican nomination have gone up three percent, and they're yeah, because hardly anybody moved. And as I said before, if you were, you were not. If you're a Trump supporter, you weren't waiting on this debate

to make any decision you were. You're not looking at vice presidential possibilities, you're not even looking at allies. You're looking at people that are the enemy. Because they're not on the Trump side. See that's what it is. It's about Trump. So and Mike Pence lost his access. I mean, clearly, if Trump is the nominee, which it appears as though he will be at this point, he's not gonna select Mike Pence to be his running

mate. Again, that's not happening. So Mike Pence is in a no win situation and he's going to keep running with his old playbook and that's all there is to it, and hopefully he'll just go away in obscurity. But again, I mean, he was trying to point to his experience. He's trying to sell. If Trump gets it, yeah, do you think he'll pick any of these people to be as vice president? No, because they

showed disloyalty. See that's the thing, Younkin. Because even if they didn't speak out against him, they were at the debate, Junkin has a better chance of being his vice presidential nominee, right because he wasn't there. See the second that they showed up there, they're disloyal to him, just like Chris Christie was on the inside of that administration. And now he's having a weird time trying to you know where they're going. We'll look. If you

think he's so awful, how come you were working for him. Yeah, it's a bit of a question, isn't it. Oh, he wasn't that awful if he was giving you a job or if you had a possibility of becoming the attorney general, he wasn't so awful. No. No, I think what we figure out here is that despite Chris Christie's genuineness that comes off, it's not one hundred percent genuine because he's full of crap. He was willing to support Trump because it served his purposes, and he will do that

when it serves his purposes. And that's the truth about Chris Christy. Mike Pence is in an interesting position. And even the weird thing, I don't know if you saw this, with the weird crossover of having Chris Christy go, you know what, Mike Pence deserves a pat on the back for at least adhering to the Constitution, which, by the way, I think the guy from the Dakotas there is the only guy who turned around and said,

you know what, I'm going to operate according to the Constitution. That's going to correct a lot of this, especially when they brought up the abortion discussion and a whole bunch of like you know, fallacies were thrown out on the stage. There no challenge to any of this stuff, like you know, the whole concept of when a baby feels pain and all that study. Yeah, because of the clock if no matter who wins, if there's a Republican

president that gets in there. Yeah, you told me about this story about the CIA stare. There's a CIA sex scandal, Yes, multiple cases sterwell attacks on different women by a c officer. Oh, it goes way crazier than that, Mike. There's a story involved in that, in that grouping of complaints where apparently somebody's CIA superior showed up at a woman's home with a with a firearm and with demanding sex from her. I mean there is a wild range of accus a woodens once again, CIA out of control. Yep.

If one of these Republicans win, forget about this deep state. Can they sit with clean up the CIA? Can they clean up the agency for once and for all. Well, now, the funny thing is, you would think that's a good question that wasn't asked last night, but it was asked. Do you remember that coming up. Okay, so the concept about this it wasn't in one of the questions that the moderators who had lost control

of it already had brought up. But Mike, here's what happened. Somebody started talking about what they needed to do day one, and of course it's take care of the Justice Department, impeach or you know, charge Merrick Garland with criminal activity for you know, targeting the president and you know with former President Trump that is, and go after all of Biden's people for weaponizing the Justice Department. So you didn't hear any of that. I mean, that's

just stuff to say all the time. I want to know if they can just clean up this scale. See now you just brought it out exactly right. That's stuff they say all the time. So it's losing its sting among the people that want to cheerlead and want to chant these things. It still

works, right, you got to go after the Justice Department. They're criminals, they're going after people, they're violating Trump's rights, blah blah, all of that, all those talking points when it comes to objective people are now starting to fall silent. If you've got an independent thinker or a swing vote or anything like that. It's falling silent because ra ra I already heard this. Okay, so you're just repeating scripted crap. At one point it was

too funny too, and I think romy Swammy did it. It might have been Rami Swammy or it might have been the guy from the Dakotas one of those two. Uh turned around and said, okay, are we done with all your scripted comments now, because that's the way it sounds, whether it's true or that. Oh well, well, Christy said that too, but you know, his tirade was a little different. There was somebody else that that said it too, but Christy just you know, did the whole listen.

I'm I'm a real guy here really responding, and as you and I both observed, he came off exactly that way as more genuine than anybody else on that stage. But he's a guy from Jersey, so yeah, he's genuine and he's slimy. Both things are true and questionable, because again, okay, you think that this is awful. All this stuff is awful. You were defending Trump up to a certain point. Now you're not. Something

changed, right, Oh that's right, it's not to your advantage. You got to recognize that that Christy will switch things based on what his advent. The advantage is he might genuinely express himself in some ways. What is he going to stay on the path? No, you want a guy whose lockstep is going to march in a straight line and do his best to stay on that straight line. That's Mike Pence. Nobody wants it, Okay, So there it is, Mike. I gotta tell you this has been a fun

brief analysis of the debates last night. I don't know if you appreciate it all of my viewpoints, but I assure you if you let him rattle around in your head for a little while and rewatch some clips, I think you're gonna agree with me more and more, because honestly, that was just a very counterproductive night for all the people on that stage and did nothing to change the equation that Donald Trump is still the air apparent to the nomination and appears

to be the guy who has the most legitimate organic support for better for worse. Whether you think it's a good idea or not, whether you think it's just dumb, doesn't matter. Truth is that's what the people are wanting, and just like they sell. You know, plenty of fast food burgers. They're clogging everybody's arteries. If people want to buy it, they're gonna keep selling it, and that's the way it's going to go. So he's still

raising money. He's maybe he's surrendered by now, or maybe he'll do that tomorrow morning in Georgia. But either way, he still got till the twenty fifth to do it, and his presence was felt at that debate without him showing up and with the prerecorded Tucker Carlson that I guess you can only see on Twitter. Mike, if you want, I'll record the audio for you and send it over to you from the Twitter, because I haven't watched the whole Trump presentation yet, have you have you? Do you want that?

I'll make that for you. Oh you don't have to do that, Okay, here about it, No problem. Hey, listen, if you were going to be up late tonight, i'd tell you stay up late and I'll share screen share with you and we can watch it together on my screen. But but I know you don't have time for that. Look, I appreciate you taking the time. We're a little bit late getting to Larry Hancock, so I want to get to him, but anything you want to say.

In closing, after we've done this lightning round of analysis on last night's GOP debate, Part one, Mike puts Mike Pitts won the debate. Mike Pitts won the debate, so says Mike Swanson. O'chelly don't buy it, but Mike Swanson says it. I give Mike respect, but gotta tell you, man, it ain't the way it went down. Anyway. Be in the know. Go to Wall Street Window dot com. I can't wait to see

what articles you got out tomorrow, and get on the mailing list. Do that because you'll definitely be in the know if you go to Wall Street Window dot com. And also check out the books to War State and Why the Vietnam War, both authored by the man behind that website, Mike Swanson. Thanks Mike. I hope you are with me next week, but if not, I hope you're well wherever you are. Man. Anyway, guys, stick around. Larry Hancock is up neck do still the stock market, Wall

three Window dot dot. Perhaps you're invested deeply, Perhaps you're not in deep enough. Maybe you're thinking about getting started Wall Street, Windows dot com dot com. Michael Swanson, the brilliant author of the War State, understood these trends professionally for many years, and now he gives you the benefit of his knowledge. Wall Street Streindo dot com. Go there, now, go there, Now go there now Belle dot Com Radio Network. In Denial The Secret

Wars with Air Strikes and Tanks by Larry Handcock. Secret wars became a staple of US covert operations and are still happening today. Marry Hancock's book In Denial rips the cover off many of them, using new files. It exposes things about the Bay of Pigs that no one has ever written about before. It shows why it really failed and why the United States did not learn from it. It also shows why other country today are doing secret operations with more success.

This is the book that puts what some want to deny into the light. In Denial, Secret Wars with Air Strikes and Tanks Larry Hancock. For more information, go to Larry hyphen Hancock dot com. Pick up your copy of In Denial at Amazon dot com in digital or physical. Go ahead calling isted in the Truth about the Day of a assassination? Right, Well, what do you want to know Judy Baker's wild claim Oswald girlfriends you knew Ruby and Barry answer weapons. Really, I imagine I could claim I have four

wheels. It doesn't make me a wagon. But okay. Oswald was on the building and science prevent the murder of John Kennedy. Come on now has a real echort on the day of hay assasscination. Go into her claims. Go to Amazon dot com enter Judith Baker in her own words. You'll get results for a digital copy of a book where Walt Brown utilizes her own words and the known evidence in the case to get at well a different perspective.

Let's say you can get Judith Varry Baker in her own words from the author himself, signed if you requested by contracting doctor Brown at KIA s JFK at aol dot com. It's a fun book and it actually dissects the many, many fantastic claims. Judith Varry Baker in her own words. Thank you all the great information. Do you like history? Real history that you were never taught in schools? Why the Vietnam War Nuclear bombs in nation Building in Southeast

Asia? By author Mike Swanson with new documentation never seen before that will open your eyes to events that led up to this. Why the Vietnam War, Nuclear Bombs in Nation Building in Southeast Asia nineteen forty five through nineteen sixty one. Get your copy today at Amazon dot com. Why the Vietnam War by

author Mike Swanson. Can you express my caller schools for anyone else who happens again on the air or not necessarily and we are not responsible for getting stupidity which might ensue than the war State by Michael Swanson explains the great national transformation that took place and put the Kennedy presidency in the context of the times, and reveals never before published information about the Cuban missile crisis. President Kennedy would

not have been assassinated if he had been president two hundred years ago. His assassination took place in the context of the Cold War and the rise of the national security state. Before World War II, the United States was a continental republic. In the decade that followed, it became an imperial superpower. Generals such as Curtis LeMay not only wanted to invade Cuba, but knew that there were short range missiles on the island armed with nuclear warheads that they could not

destroy because they were on mobile launchers. Their invasion could have led to a Third World War, and they wanted to go to war anyway. The War State by Michael Swanson reveals why and will show you what President Kennedy was up against. For more information at war State dot com. Nuclear holocaust. You know what uranium is right? Think called nuclear weapons and other things like lots of you know what uranium is right? Bad things things are done with uranium,

including some bad things nuclear holocausts. You know what uranium is right? I have been nuclear holocausts its, nuclear holocausts. You know what uranium is right? Just think called nuclear weapons and other things like lots of you know what uranium is right? Bad things things are done with uranium, including some bad things nuclear holocausts, Nuclear hololeer Holocaust, nuclear Holocaust, nuclear holocaust,

Nuclear Holoca. Revelation to conversation. You're listening to the Osheli dot com radio network. What the dynamics of a crop? How do you move a mab? How do you exct How do you make them feel is one with you? How join them? First? Join yes? When you speak to them, speak to them as if you were a member of the mob. Speak to them in their language and they're level. Make they hate you. If they are poor, talk to them of policy, if they are afraids,

talk to them of their feels. If they are angry, give them objects for the anger. But most of all, thinking that it's posts is that you make this mob an extension of yourself. I'm doing. What are the dynamics of a crop? How do you move a mab? How do you excct? How do you make them feel is one with you? And you speak to them? Speak to them as if you were a member of the public. Speak to them in their language. I'm their living talk to them

a public. If they're afraid, talk to them the fels angry. Oh Chili dot com. Second segment of the o'chelli effect here on a Thursday or Thursday night. And I haven't been doing second segments or second hours lately, but what the hell, let's do it when we got two great guys to talk to. And the second one, of course, this author Larry Hancock, who occupies a whole lot more space on my bookshelf than any other author.

And you know, I don't just say that because he occupies space on my bookshelf, you know, because he could put anything on your bookshelf. But I actually read Larry's work too. Okay, I've actually read it. It didn't just sit on my bookshelf for looks, and I don't know who would be looking at my bookshelf outside of you guys to catch videos once in a while, but irrelevant. Go to Larry dash Hancock dot com. Check

out all of his work too. Numerous the list, but all of it that I see anyway, unless he's written a children's book and didn't tell me about it, all centers around the behavior of the national security state, historical relevance, you know, and things that go on related to guess what, the darker side, the covert side, and the overt side of spheres of

influence all over the place. You can study that through Larry Hancock's work Surprise Attack, Shadow Warfare, some of it he co authored with Stu Wexler. Absolutely true, but creating chaos unidentified. I mean, you can't escape the national security angle on all of these topics, from UAPs to the JFK assassination, to the various political intrigues that came about as a result of various operations of shadow warfare literally and of course the denial that comes with it, like

in denial. You know that book that I advertise on here. Anyway, all of it together, If you read any of Larry Hancock's stuff, you've gotten a full education on a topic at least one, if not several. Larry dash Hancock dot com go there, check out his works blog whatever you can, because the man is a treasure. And I'm happy to have you

with me here, Larry. We're going to cover a couple of things, and we're going to start with a question that I actually got from more than one listener in about the space of a couple of days related to the JFK assassination. But before we get there, even how are you doing tonight? I'm doing good. It's it's summer, it's hot in Oklahoma. But you know, we're surviving and there are no national natural catastrophes occurring here at the

moment, and we're thankful. So that means you're not in Hawaii, you're not in California or anywhere elsewhere all hell might break loose because of mudslides, tornadoes, hurricanes, etc. Or just you know, fires, whether they be natural or unnatural or they happen to me because the poor forest management, or they happen to me because of down power lines, or you know what. There's a lot of disasters, and if you're not near one of them, it's a blessing. So here we go, and not just you,

Larry, but anybody's listening. If you're not near something that's burning down, getting blown around or knocked down or electrified, you're used to count that as

a serious blessing. Anyway, Yeah, this JFK question that came up, it has come up many times, and it started in my mind as far as a serious point of discussion when this book, Ultimate Sacrifice was released and there were some documentaries that accompanied it and seemed to come out almost in support of the book on the History Channel, the Discovery Channel, I think even maybe PBS touched on it. I don't remember, but even small segments on

news channels talked about this book. It was a big deal and Tom Hartman was attached to it along with Lamar Waldron. Tom Hartman of course a big time figure at a certain point in recent history, having been kind of popular on RT Tom Hartman Show. He was part of liberal broadcasting, History, etc. Etc. Anyway, interesting guys, interesting authors, and they presented an interesting theory which combined some old theories and some old thoughts on the assassination

having to do with organized crime, its involvement with Cuba. At first, it seems like and then the discussion comes around regarding well, maybe the theory. Maybe John F. Kennedy was assassinated because an invasion of Cuba was about to happen and it had to be stopped. So the people that had no

interest in Cuba being invaded made sure he got killed. I know that that's a real nasty way to put it, but I mean that's pretty much when I started to hear from people who were not well read in I mean literally the guy I talked about a few weeks on a show a few weeks ago who said to me, I've read every book on the assassination. A guy said that to me once, Larry, I've ever told you that story. No, that's that's fascinating, and he has my sympathy. Yes, absolutely,

But here's the punchline. Uh, you know it was great. He said, I read every book on the case. I know about it already because somebody mentioned you were interested in the Kennedy assassination. So is this guy chuck in you know, two ten or twelve? Uh? You know what are we talking about? Twenty some odd years after I probably cracked open my first serious bit of research. Okay, so yeah, sure, I'm interested. You've read every book on the case. Wow, that's great. So

I said to the guy, how many books is? Do you think is every book on the case? Can you venture a guess at how many it was? Larry, Oh, I'm if you looked at fact and fiction and everything, if you really wanted to cover I would. I would say if he if he doesn't exceed two hundred, then he's not even close. Oh yeah, no, absolutely true. And look I'm smiling over here because you know I'm about to give you the serious, smart ass response. Here's the

thing. If he started at two hundred, I'd say, okay, nice try. But even back then, we were over a thousand books. I knew that a thousand books between the self published stuff, the you know straight ahead you know, mainstream press, well known press, the carol and grafts of the world, so on and so forth. Right, I knew we were over a thousand pieces of publication that could be counted as books. But if somebody said two hundred, I'd say, you know what, you did

a fair job. And I know I lost count somewhere around three hundred for me. But no, what would be the most ridiculous answer somebody could give for how many books there were on the assassination? Say around the fiftieth anniversary, Larry, I mean during that time, but I mean up to that ten try three. I loved that. Yeah, I've read three books on it. I went kill kick. So you're not aware that there's probably about a thousand and three books, you know? And then he thought I was

exaggerating, said, okay, let me ask you about your theories. Anyways. The reason why I bring it up is because guess what his explanation almost sounded like that sloppy thing I handed you at the beginning here regarding the c Day idea, This idea that a impending invasion of Cuba could only be stopped by murdering John F. Kennedy. Therefore, nefarious actors executed John F. Kennedy to prevent the invasion of Cuba. Okay, is that a fair summation

that sentence I just gave you of the general idea here? Yeah, definitely, The fundamental thing in that view is that an invasion was imminent. And I think in reading reading the book that we're talking about about it, I myself, I've always got a little bit confused as to what appeared to me to be conflicting motives, with some of the players wanting to stop it and other of the players on the organized crime site wanting to take advantage of the

opportunity to kill JFK. To blame it on the people that wanted to stop it. It's like, Okay, at that point in time, my mind starts to boggle a bit. But so, yeah, the fundamental thing is there's going to be an evasion, and it's it's both a It is the fundamental motive for something to happen, whether you want to stop it or take

advantage of it. Now, the weird thing about it is that the mob would have been motivated by wanting to regain their casinos was the general thought pattern, you know, the thing that they had been kicked out of, you know, because Batista was removed from power. Castro said you guys gotta go, and they lost a lot of money. And that sounds like a plausible motive to the average person. But the specifics of the question that were asked.

There is something that grows out of this. Even if the person who asked the question had never read that book, or was not involved in it at the time, or anything else. I understand that you might be saying to yourself if I asked that question and I know that I didn't even read that book, maybe maybe I don't know, Maybe Jimmy did read the book. Actually, Jimmy's one of the people that asked. He might have read

it. And you know, credit where credits do. It's fine. So Jimmy James is one of the people that asked that question, and Darryl asked another version of that question a little less clearly, but it's okay, believe it or not. The popularization of this idea, the popularization of what it is that you asked about, comes from that time period. This is why it's still kicking around on the internet, which is the only reason I bring

it up. I'm not trying to place a bunch of blame on Lamar, Lamar Waldron and Tom Hartman here because these ideas did pre exist them, but they claim to have evidence because of some documentation. Right, So let's look at the specifics of the question and get to it. Larry, go ahead. I'll just turn it over to you because I've given you the semi convoluted version of it, guys, because somebody has to voice it, and I want Larry to straighten it out. So this way he doesn't have to get

all dirtied up and muddied up with the odd explanations. So why don't we look at the question. Let me try and put it in front of me too, because I know do you have in front of you? I'm sorry, yes, I do, Okay, good, yeah, So I'll just let you address the question and I'll defer to you by the way. So well, and just for a little context the history. I had been talking

with Lamar. We both lived in Atlanta, we knew each other. I had been talking to him about a research and about two major areas which both are are involved in the question. Because the question, I said, is is complex because you're looking at two different motives being involved. Lamar had two things working, and there are two things that work in the book. One was the discovery of a series of documents that he felt suggested that there was

a major coup planning effort underway. By the Kennedy administration to be accompanied by There would be this coup, but it would only occur in conjunction with an actual landing of troops, a D Day type military invasion by US personnel.

And the scenario is literally that the coup kicks off the coup members. This is a replay of the Bay of Pigs to some extent, but the coup members call for resistance, and this time the assistance is there in a big way, and JFK actually orders, you know, a full scale military intervention in Cuba to support the coup. And Lamar had picked up on the fact, and correctly of course, that we now know in great detail that the

US was working to stimulate coup activities in nineteen sixty three. There's no doubt about that. We even know the project's name, So there was no doubt about that. There was no doubt that there was a project to single out a particular leader that would would be put into into Cuba a position to call

for that assistance. A fellow named our teammate, Manuel, our teammate, and there was a project called am World built around setting up our teammate to have a military element that could go in you know that you've got a one two three operation going here. Coup starts with enablers inside Cuba, our teammate lends as forces, calls for support, and the Navy shows up in a big way. That's the scenario. And this was all folded under something called

C Day, which is an extension of the D Day concept. So it ends up with military intervention. And the issue is at that point in time, Miss Lamar and I were talking, there were documents available, a few documents on all of this. Yeah, could you find documents about a coup project? Yeah, about Amworld which as an art teamMy project. Sure, And you could find a number of documents about military planning for intervention in Cuba.

In nineteen sixty two, JFK had actually authorized a major exercise in the Caribbean and the exercise was literally to simulate a landing in Cuba. So you could you could find those documents. The military had been not only preparing plans, but it exercised it. And in nineteen sixty three, even more to the point, JFK had had authorized the Joint Chiefs to become involved in taking over covert operations against military operations against Cuba from the CIA, so you could

find. Yeah, if you're looking for documents and you only have a few of them, one of the things you're stuck with is I only have a few documents, and all of these things are in play. Let me try to wrap up a scenario around all of them. And so that was the origin of c Day. And then then Lamar integrated another area that he had spent a lot of time on, which was Carlos Marcello and Marcello's drive to revenge himself against the Kennedy brothers. And you wrapped all that up, and

you've got Ultimate Sacrifice. You got the book. Now. The problem is, as I say, I had been, I had been researching am World myself. At that point, Lamar and I started talking. Lamar said, well, you know, I'd appreciate it if you don't you don't put out anything about these am World documents, because I'm going to be publishing this really important book and they're very important to him. And I said, well,

hey, fine, you know you got it, go for it. And he published the book, and I kept working on am World, and I kept find any more documents, and we got to the point where, I mean, new documents have been released on an ongoing basis, and we got to the point where we could tell the full story of am World and see that it was nowhere near what Lamar thought it was. It there was,

our teammate wasn't. Nobody'd even recruited people, bought weapons, whatever. Our teammate's first military operation in a very small scale didn't begin until like April of nineteen sixty four. There was no way he was there for to trigger cy Day. Well, would it suffice to say light, let me just ask this question, because I think this is key here. Would it suffice to

say that there was not? Even though we see the planning stage, the gaming stage, so to speak, of how would we do this, we don't see the actual actions in place to make it an eminent operation that was basically ready to go that may have been derailed simply by these fascination. Oh yeah, there are no evidence of assets being moved into play, no military you know, no ships being positioned. From military standpoint. There was just no sign, you know, in November, that anything was being moved or

positioned for that kind of operation. You know, as we had seen before, like during the missile crisis, you have to move a lot of equipment, a lot of logistics, because that's during the Missile crisis in sixty two, that's exactly what they did. They moved everything in position for an invasion to Cuba, and everybody noticed. You can't do that without going, oh, there's a railroad train full of tanks, and I don't look at the

ships that have pulled into Hampton Roads or you know, Jacksonville. You know, people notice. Okay, none of that was apparent. The other real problem for Lamar was the fact that people turned up the fact that the main Cuban figure in the Castro regime that Lamar had identified as going to be the trigger and the key person who actually I think was going to assassinate Fidel Castro fellow named Almada, was actually not in Cuba at the time. He was

in Europe as in Spain, as I recall. So that wasn't in play either. So you didn't have you didn't have the element, the military element stage that would have been necessary for c D. He didn't have the enabler for the coup, and you didn't have our teammate in place, so you had none of those three elements. But again we didn't learn that until Lamar had published his book, I think now work yeah, in fairness to Waldron and an Hartmann, knowing what we know now is different as opposed to what

they had to work with at the time. And there are various elements like the location. I think of one of the prime figures, like the lack of recruitment that would have been necessary, because they would have at least needed to recruit people and get him ready to do this stuff. It's not like you can do this overnight, those things not being in place. Maybe we're

not self evident in the documents as they stood at the time. And I think Waldron published in two thousand and five, you know, ahead of the fiftieth anniversary, and within an amount of time it gained a lot of traction. But it's not even about him. And by the way, we also have to extract from this equation the whole mob element a bit. Why because objectively speaking, you could say that this may have absolutely nothing to do with

a organized crime motive. For instance, Marcello could have just wanted to strike back at the Kennedy's because he felt burned over again the popular theory that we helped him win the election in Illinois. Objectively, I'm saying I don't believe this, but objectively you can't remove you can't get hung up on that either because the mob having been in play or not is not necessarily relevant or irrelevant exclusively to what it is we're talking about here. The bottom line is that

there is a lack of evidence. And again I want to go to the specifics of the question because you know, Jimmy had asked about the particulars there with Rankin's testimony and what he knew at the time when he said what he said, you know, in front of the HSCA, So I wouldn't mind

addressing that as well. But let's just be careful about this because and I'm not telling you to be careful, Larry, I'm saying this just out loud for myself and really that you know, let's just keep it straight, right, There's just not enough evidence to support the idea that there was this c day that either A needed to be stopped or you needed to turn it around. And but you don't have the operation realistically looking like it was happening.

You do have contingency plans, which again I've had to explain, are not necessarily things that are happening, and that's what a lot of those documents look like that even Waldron was working with at the time, right, So that in and of itself, all by itself, doesn't say that you have an operation. You do have people thinking about it, you have two people. How would we do this as opposed to let's get this done? Or is

that an oversimplification on my part now? And I think that's one of the risks that we all run when you start interviewing people and you start asking questions like, well, was there talk of or did you hear anything about or you know? And the point is, of course there was talk. We know there was talk. You could ask any number of people. Were their plans to invade Cuba? Sure there were, As you said, there were

contingency plans, and they were routinely updated. And even as of the again summer of nineteen sixty three, there are plans, as I said, to start the military conducting covert military operations against Cuba by the end of the year. Okay, So again from a timing standpoint, this was being taken away from the CIA, away from the jmwave station and the maritime troops, and that's why we actually see trainers, army trainers like Bradley Aires in Miami starting

to take over those duties. And just as a clarification here, Yeah, and just as a point of clarification, AM World or AM World is described as a CIA operation because they are literally evoking Kubark as a code word, which is for the CIA. Right, So that's that's who we're talking about here with the contingency plan in the first place, they're a key player there.

And simultaneously or should I say, parallel to that contingency plan being made or being circulated or whatever's going on with it, there is also this shift taking away some of that responsibility, maybe because things are cooling off post Cuban missile crisis, and maybe we don't want those covert operators who maybe weren't as trustworthy. I mean, I'm just speculating here, but maybe those responsibilities needed to be taken out of their hands so we didn't end up with any more

poor results. Somebody else better handle this. I mean again, am I oversimplifying? The real background for that is that that JFK had been very a year before, year and a half before, he had been very unhappy, a fact that we couldn't seem to do enough damage to North Vietnam with covert operations to dissuade them from doing what they were doing in the South. It's like, Okay, if they can conduct all these activities in the South, we need to inflict some pain to show them that it's not worth it.

So the CIA had been conducting covert opts against the North and literally failed. You know, I go through that in Shadow Warfare at length, and Matt namara had convinced JFK that that was because the CIA really didn't have the military assets, the personnel, the training, military operations, and of course everybody had concluded that after the Bay of Pigs, I think this is no shock.

I think you touched on this and in Denial as well. Yeah, And so mc namaric convinced JFK, and JFK had said, well, you're right, let's start. And so they've started a program called Switchback, which was moving it from CIA to the military, and that was well underway in Vietnam, and that's what was going to happen against Cuba. But as we've taught before, JFK was really in regard to Cuba. By the fall of nineteen sixty three, he's balancing three different things, three different tracks, three

different approaches. Because he was the ultimate pragmatist, he's sort of like, Okay, we need to put a more effective lever in place to inflict pain in sabotage. We're going to hand it off. You know, the CIA just can't seem to make this work. The military is going to start using their personnel and do it deniably. So that's in play, and you see some really detailed military planning for pulling that off. And the second thing in play is he's going to let the CIA have am World and our teammate.

They're going to move that all offshore. That's going to create pain in another way where the you know, the CIA is just supporting that. He's never supposed to be associated with it. So he got those two things going, and he's starting to talk negotiations with Castro back channel and all that, right, Yeah, the back channel. And you can't imagine a more chaotic situation.

So if you want to start interviewing people about what was being discussed by whom we're at that point in time, you'll find just about anything, Yeah, because you could have anything from want to find Yeah, you could have anything from Look, he was actually going to start working with and opening up Cuba, you know, which is one possibility if you're talking to people who

are somehow involved with the back channel. If you're talking to people that were at CIA, well maybe they were a little irritated, but they were still operationally preparing for things, you know, the d I A. Well, they were getting handed new responsibility, so to speak. I mean, again, there's a variety of options here, right. History is never That's what bothers me about a lot of writing. History is never simple. There are always multiple things going on at the same time. So when you try to

write it and straight linear fashion, you've got a problem exactly. I mean, it forces you to condense it to the point, you know, to try to make your point, and it's never like that in reality. Right. So I look, I'm gonna stop asking questions here and let you wrap this up because I want to move on to another topic before we're done tonight. So I want to give you a chance to wrap up the total answer to the question that was asked, which was a fair one about this situation.

I think you've done a stellar job so far, but what else do we need to add to cover all of what was asked about there. I think all we I think the sumination is that what Lamar did, what is an ultimate sacrifice, is a scenario, and a lot of us who write books about JFK probably don't put that disclaimer up front, which you really should, and say, you know, with the information available to us right now, this seems to be the most likely view of what was going on.

This is what it looks like, but nobody writes that. And then the other problem check really is that you never go back. You'd never get to go back and fix it, so it stays in play forever, even if you know better. I mean, I've talked to authors, and I myself have things and someone would have talked that I would change now or take out a room. But you don't have that option. You can write a new book and say, look, everybody read the newer book. Okay. Unfortunately

Lamar didn't get around to doing that, so nobody did. Well, he wrote another book, and he did update that book as well. So the thing is he added to his thesis. Well, yeah, okay, and that's usually what people do. They add to their thesis. Look, I've got some new documents. They actually support what I was saying, but they you know, look, it's like a prosecutor's brief, sort of like with what Bogliosi did, where you have a one directional thing happening here. Okay,

you're not going to offer the contradictory evidence. It's just it doesn't sell well to say. And that's the problem here. It doesn't sell well to say, Look, this is just a possibility, This isn't the truth, right, what sells best like this ridiculous documentary I viewed recently that says we've solved the case again. Of course, publishers don't like that. Publishers like you to be definitive and say, just read this one book and you got it all, you got it right. And that is the problem with a

second edition. Yeah you can do it, but if the second edition, that's why I honestly say, and what I've done, is you've got to write a new book. If you write a second edition and just flesh out what was no that really everybody gets confused used about what addition it was. And so again you can't recover. You can't really recover with a second edition. You can make it a little bit better, you can add to it.

But if you if you were off in the first place, that doesn't fix it, right, And here's and here's the thing about it again, just one real quick thing here is that Look, it's not an attack on one particular book. It's just that this is what popularized it. And if you indeed go and do a search, you can probably find if all you're looking for is more supporting evidence. Uh, you know, and add right the revision, the new version where they add documentation to add a little more

weight to the thesis. You can if that's all you look for. But there's more to it, and the overall picture gets a little different when you try and put everything on the table that's relevant. That's all I'm saying about it. And I don't know if you want to go to a quick break before we change gears or if you want to just change up. We can do it either way, Larry. But well, I'm okay, I can

shift. Okay, Well, then let's just shift anyway and we'll just uh, we'll just go without the commercial then fair enough, okay, And I'm the I'm the quarterback here, blind quarterback. That's fun. Anyways, we are gonna be uh, you're you're actually physically going to the JFK conference. Have we confirmed that yet or that is that is my definite plan. I'm still I'm still working for shar on how to get a ride there. I've got to work that out, but my intent is to go. The logistics

are still slightly an open question. Yeah, I got you know what. I'm in exactly the opposite position where I've got to ride there, but I'm not sure how I'm pulling off everything. So like, I'm not sure how I'm gonna eat the whole weekend just yet, you know, and stuff like that, or even pay for all the gas. Yet I'm working on it. I'm working on it. But anyway, that's all happening. So uh, you know, hopefully Larry will be in person and at the Lancer conference

between the seventeenth and nineteenth along with me there in Dallas, Texas. Gonna be really happy to shake your hand once again and hang out with you a little, Larry. That'll be fun. But we'll we'll we'll definitely address anything there and probably a couple of shows leading up to the November seventeenth dates. Uh, you and I will wind up having another conversation or two about JFK. But uh, you know, and who knows, we might bring on

some other people. I'd actually like to bring on some new people. Uh and and you know, and and maybe some people we've heard from before in the run up to the conference. But for now, let's put this aside because current events are interesting and guaranteed if Larry's got to write another book, uh say, another book related to creating chaos, not an update, although

you could probably include this in an update. Uh, we're gonna we're gonna shift right on over to Russia and what's happening there, or maybe more aptly or more correctly, I should say, we're going to switch to Belarus. And oh wait a minute, that Wagoner group guy we were talking about not

too long ago, the chef himself, he's apparently dead. Larry. Interesting how the media has covered it. Of course, they're very busy with the debates, like you know, we were talking about with Swanson in the first hour, But outside of that, they did announce that a plane went down

and Progosion is presumed dead. Now, some people have said, like myself on social media already, I mean I think I literally put a hashtag on it, putin being Putin is what I put on the news story because I feel like it's awfully coincidental that a plane crashes, you know, with a guy who might have, according to many many reports, have run a near coup against Vladimir Putin. That is, this very interesting and effective figure in

certain spheres of influence. And I'm calling him the chef because he was. He was a chef anyway, who was running this private military group. Anyway, he's dead now, and I was curious if you wanted to cover this and talk about what your thoughts are on it and what you see happening, or what the relevance of it is or anything. I just sort of leave it open to you. Larry go ahead. Yeah, I think one of the things that strikes me about this is that, yeah, for agat it.

For considering book titles, I think I'd have to move into something called like chaos, extreme extreme chaos, chaos squared, because what's happening inside Russia just literally is not rational. And I think that's what we see going on with Proceiding. I mean, Kutin is really sacrificing his nation for no obvious

purpose. I mean, I just it's I haven't seen any it could set down and say this is how this has any strategic sense, any long term benefit to the nation any like you and I have often talked about Russia having descended into, you know, an organized crime state. Well, one of the things, correct me if I'm wrong, is that an organized crime state does not benefit from chaos. It benefits from business as usual. When you know that, that's that's the way you make money, that's the way you

retain your you know, well and good on a street level. Okay, again, I always take this to the street level, Larry, excuse me, but here's the thing. Why is it that a neighborhood that is filled with hard working people protect the local gangster because in their neighborhood things are operating smoothly. Newbody wants to steal anything in that neighborhood for fear they might run foul of the local gangster. Nobody wants to mess with a business that the

local gangster might be benefiting from because that could have some serious consequences. So, in that way, it's not the trains being run on time, but it's the neighborhood being kept passive and peaceful and orderly for the people that live there. That's an honest, direct result. Now, so that speaks to what you're talking about. But here's the thing about this, and I think it's it's different, and I wonder what your thoughts are on this. The

concept of re establishing Russia as this power in and of itself. Is that

not the motivation? Is it not part of the things that we hear coming out of the Russian Orthodox Church, etc. About Russian identity and Vladimir Putin being an instrument of God and stuff like that, Because that to me seems to be the only rational motivation for the greatness of and for the arguments made publicly that there were Nazis there, we had to get rid of the Nazis, there were Russians, people that were culturally Russian being attacked, and things

like that. He then ends up with no choice but to do the thing that protects the Russian identity, the Russian supremacy, the Russian you know, uniqueness, the blessing of Russia as it in and of itself as an identity. This is about Russian identity as opposed to territory. That's the only rationale I have in my mind about this. Good that's a rationale. But that is Putin. I think what you're saying is that was not there before. If you go back to a decade ago, Yeah, Russia was. Russia

was living in the moment, Western businesses, Western culture. But you know, there was nobody. There was no outcry against that, There was no surge of oh, we've got to protect her. That all came out as Putin began to look for a justification of measures that he was putting into place to take total political power. So I guess what I'm saying to you is it's not that that was not there. The elements of that were not there, but he consciously cultivated them, enabled them. So that rationale I don't.

I don't. That certainly was not important to Russia's economy, which was doing just fine with the oligarchs, thank you, or Russia's place in the energy economy, which was doing just fine, thank you. That was that was not there until it was cultivated, and Putin was the individual that cultivated it. There's nobody else. So I agree with you that that rational was there, but it's a rationale that has been developed by largely by one person, and all I hate to do it again, I'm going to say this

again, I like national socialism. It doesn't mean that there weren't elements there to be cultivated. But until you cultivate it and make it the dominant theme for your power base, you know, it's it's just something else. Are there Are there people that will write books about it? Are there people that will speak about it in old seminars? Yeah, but nobody's paying any attention. Now that's the dominant theme. But so yeah, that is a rationale.

It's the Putin rationale. And if you want to stay alive, you probably better if you want to stay alive, if you're already doing you know,

that's what you believe already, or that's what you better believe. That would that would be my position on it, So that that I see that as something artificial overlaid onto business as usual if it were quite quite frankly, if it weren't artificial, Why in the world would a military operation that was supposed to last, you know, three to thirty days now be a total, all consuming war. That just that's not rational, that's ideological, and

it's it's just putting no fair enough. I mean, I just I just examined this and and say to myself, well, what is the proper rash now because it seems to be costing too much treasure, too much resources, et cetera, and enter progosion into the equation. Now he's dead, and somebody could say, look, it's a coincidence that the plane goes down now,

and so on and so forth. But I I don't know. My gut is telling me that can't be right now, anybody that's anybody is I want to find out who's saying that, because I've got some football bets that I want to place Oh cool, and I want they have to be the ones I'm placing it with. Yeah, if you think that was a coincidence, drut me in not listen, I'm I'm with you. It's fine. I just I'm just throwing it out there. As you know, somebody's gonna

make excuses about this, Okay, it's just that simple. I don't know what a good excuse would be for this to happen at this time, that it's coincidental, et cetera. But it's, uh, what do you think the fallout is going to be from this? What do you think the result is going to be? I mean, let's get to that and also get to the idea that you know, as I said, I mean I boiled

down to a simple astag Putin being putin. I don't think it's uncommon for his enemies to have accidents shortly after they make themselves known to be his enemies. So you know, I'll leave it at that and let people make up their own minds. But what do you what do you think what is the actual result of this? Yeah? Good? There were two problems. The major problem is Prosigan had the ability and I'm not quite sure how he did

this to establish his own alternative center of influence. I mean, he had established it in in Africa, and there is a great debate now where whether he Russian or Wagner Group influence in Africa will remain what it was, a lot of those connections and friendships. I mean, he had just come back from Africa. They were very personal. They trusted him, they used his group. You know, will they trust the next folks around? I don't

know even know who's waving in the wings. And if the Wagner group is disassembled literally and they're starting to take across a part their base in belaruss and they were recruiting for Africa, and if Kuten tries to shove in one of the other military companies, and right now they're at least half a dozen other military companies. Almost all of the major businesses, like gas from their left have started setting up their own contract militaries, which you know, okay,

if he tries to substitute somebody, will that work. The Wagener Group literally was a major source of revenue, economic influence for Russian and Africa, and he's put that at risk. I don't think there's any doubt about it. The Wagner Group was actually a destabling force for in Della russ making Poland very

nervous, making Lithuania very nervous. That's going to go away. So from one perspectives, as we talked a couple of weeks ago, I think Wegner and Proceeding we're still of value to Putin, But to Russia if not to Putin, So what harm was they doing? Was he going to be doing? You know, to me it seems very personal. What Putin has begun doing seems to be no longer strategic, but just very If you look at the remarks that he made about proceeding today, they were very much on the

order if he got what he deserved. You know, read the remarks that he gave and see if it doesn't feel that way. And so it feels to me very much like revenge, or it feels to me again in the terms that we're talking about, you know, the Godfather, just having a gut level feel that, you know, God, I've got to protect my turf, regardless of the consequences. You know, will it disturb the police, yao, will disturb the FBI, Yeah, will disturb the government,

doesn't matter. You know. It's kind of like I have to show to me it and I was, as you know, for a time there, I was a big proponent of how smart Putin was and how strategic he was, and how he was playing the game perfectly. It just still seems to me like it's coming to part at the seams. So this is definitely not This is more the you know, it doesn't matter that the guy was a big earner for me number running numbers because he had to go. I had

to let this be an example. So I lose a little bit, but it's okay because I have to remain indisputable. I mean, is that is that what it comes down to? I mean, I think that's that's a perfect description. That may hurt a little bit, but uh, you know, if I don't, it's gonna raise ongoing questions. He's still gonna be

there, He's gonna still have his own loyalist. He's still it's kind of like somebody that started to run his own you know, his own betting wire or somebody has started to run or you know, he's still out there. And no, it's not gonna hurt me, but it makes me look weak right now because it's not me, and it really needs to all be about me. I mean, how can I have organized crime if it's not organized by me. Well, in the long run, if you're not the boss,

then other people don't have to take you seriously. So you have to make sure that that remains the established fact, you know, like I said about the whole point about Look, you're not even going to bother to shoplift in that neighborhood because you could be disturbing something that's connected to the boss. So why because he has absolutely no mercy, it doesn't matter. You know, Yeah, I stole a two dollar thing, Yeah, but that two

dollars. It's not about the two dollars it's about the fact that you dared move against something that you knew he shouldn't have moved against. So how do you establish that by making sure there is an inappropriate response so that it's so ridiculous that nobody is going to want to take that risk. Again, that's the idea that you're supposed to be. I think we have something to reinforce

that. I mean, today he removed the commander of these Russian Air and Space Force, okay, who had been kind of a house arrest because it appeared to be that he was an ally at proceiging. Okay, but still the point is the Russian Air Force has really been the only if you want to look at what's done damage to Ukraine in the last twelve months, it's

not really been the army. It's been strategic missile and bombing attacks. Well, the fact that they were unchanged by yeah, the fact that they were unchallenged in the air, I mean, I'm clear, I mean how else do you describe I mean, there was no challenge to them significantly in the

air. That's the bottom line, right, So why why would you want to start taking apart but you know, starting to take about one of the things is, if you take out the guy who was in charge, everybody below is suddenly going to be competing, right, and they're juggling for position, and they're juggling for power, and that's what they're thinking about or there or they're thinking. I understanding from what I'm reading today is it wasn't just

that commander that got taken out. A lot of the subordinate officers under him have actually been killed literally liquidated, right. Yeah, Well, and that's it's another weird thing that came up in the recent times, which is this oddity of and I don't know what to make of it, but I mean, they literally launched a mission to the Moon in the midst of all this, and I'm going, why in the hell would you direct like you look, I know, it tips into your other studies, which we're not going

to cover tonight at all. Maybe next time we get together, we're going to talk about this recent report that the UAP group that you're working on. And yes, I do connect those things in my mind. Maybe we'll discuss that next time. But it didn't you find that strange though, that that sort of popped up like hey, and also, the Russians are launching a mission to the moon, like, I don't know why good I think that was looked upon as a diversion. Okay, here's the other point we have

to consider. Aside from oil and gas, which is taken a hit, you know, at least somewhat, Russian military technology and oversees Russian military sales have been a pretty big in income, selling it to India, selling it, you know, and selling it to Iran, and you know that that's Russian technology has, especially in the military's rocket whatever as has been a strength for the country. Now clearly the performance of their equipment against Ukraine has not,

you know, has made it considerably harder to sell that stuff. So I can see a successful lunar mission kind of as a diversion. Yeah, we still got the technology and we still have to know how to do this. Trust us, we make good stuff. We're still a superpower in space technology now as it so happens, there's still a superpower in military space, which is a totally different thing. That's how many satellites you have up and

so on and so forth. But yeah, I can see it. I can see that being continued as a as a diversion and kind of a just to show you still got it basically, and also to cover up the fact that quite frankly before year, in the year of the Soviet Union, most of that technology and science was coming out of Ukraine, not Russia. Yeah there's another thing. Okay, well, see I had that thought as well,

because Ukraine was key to the Soviet Union and operations like this. I mean they built the missiles, they engineered the rockets, they built all almost all of the advanced weaponry and rockets that that's that's Ukraine. Yeah, so you know, there might have been in helmet of that too. And and the Ukraine is busily if you really monitor, re engineering all these weapons, adapting weapons, and doing things with weapons that nobody necessarily thought that they could

do. And Russia is sending you know, a career Korea RA tanks to backfill right Wait a minute, Yeah, no, it's a strange situation. So altogether, though, you would say that there's definitely some more fallout going to come from this. It's gonna be costly to some degree, whether it was coincidence or planned. Uh you know, look again, I leave it to the judgment of the listener. But but but here we are this is

the situation now as far as we know. Uh, and it does leave a strange sort of and those comments, I'm gonna have to go look at them because I didn't really read deeply into it as far as what he had to say. I don't know how much he had to say about it, but I would be very interested since you characterized it the way he did, because well, he did say that he was a good businessman. Okay, Okay, well you know that's that's positively. I can't can you can't bet

agree him, but it troubled anyway. But it's but you can't. You can't denigrate the guy, you know, all the way across the board, because then you look like Trump where it's like, look, when he was on my side, he was great. When he wasn't on my side, he was awful. No, there's a reality here somewhere. Okay. So either he was useful and good at what he was doing, because that's why you brought him in, or you know, he was no good all the

way. You can't just you know, he was totally useless anyway, who cares? You can't do that. There is one thing I forgot to mention that we should bring up as a downside. Okay, it was for Segan who actually managed to take all of Putin's gigantic fortune, move it offshore,

put it into a central laundering through a central American bank. One of the things that's being speculated right now is if, if there is any real blowback Proceigon had all of that information, if there were a file, you know, like Putin's rape and pillage of Soviet Union file somewhere that would be released to the press and the regression public on his death. That has been speculated and certainly would be something exciting, but it might take a few days.

So I mean, you know, are we about to see anymore? You know? I mean, look, you can't predict the future, but it would be interesting if all of a sudden there was a whole lot of stuff dumped out there from unknown sources. Uh, that really are not good for you know, Putin's pr campaign that he's been running for a couple of decades now, So that would be interesting. But still this, uh, this is I think there's more to come about this or but what do you see?

I mean, do you think there'll be more coming? Or are we looking at the end of it? And now this is just going to fade away. Okay, the guy who just recently, you know, and this is the way it was described. I think universally was almost responsible for a coup in Moscow, right against Putin, against the Russian Federation. I think everybody agrees that that just about almost happened. Jes coincidentally gets killed in a plane crash a few weeks later. That seems a bit suspect to me.

And I'm wondering if there will be more about this, if people will bother to pay attention, or do you think it'll just evaporate like so many other dead journalists have under Putin. I don't. I don't think it will evaporate. Two reasons. Putin had a very very deep social media I'm sorry, proceeding had a very deep social media network that he had created. He had a lot of a lot of Wegner folks who were very passionate about proceeding.

I mean, they're they're not going to let that go. That's that's going to stay one way at the other. But I think, as they said, the reason I don't think it will go away is Wegner represented a strategic weapon, a strategic tool for Russia and the story is going to be one of the Putin have some brilliant maneuver to recreate it somehow to fill that void. All that void just exist. And if so, they're a really significant

tool of Russian influence, especially in Africa. Disappears and I don't know if you if you saw it was everybody is speculating now if he saw the press conference at the Bricks meeting in South Africa where Putin was supposed to appear but didn't, because of course he would have to have been arrested as a war

criminal. They had him appear remotely, but when they did their photo op, he was just on a regular size monitor and it was setting on the floor, like h could they not even get the President of Russia a little table top to put the monitor on? So was that a subtle hint? But no, I don't. I think the loss of proceeding raises a big question about Wegner and Wegner, you know we've discussed it was a was a valued asset for Russia. So did you just write that off just on the

spur of the moment for revenge or does he have a plan. Well, I guess that'll be like you said, it'll emerge soon. Does he have a replacement? Does he have somebody to go in there and take over the Wegner group that he can put in place to continue to use it effectively. Does he have another Wegner's successor, like you said, another private military organization could come in and say, maybe fill their role, or who knows,

maybe recruit the Wegner guys into a whole new group. You know, some kind of reorganization is in order here now, because clearly Procegen was an individual who was running it as an individual, much like we talked about many times about organizations that are dependent upon the character of the boss. Okay, I think that Wegner is qualified as one of those groups that was dependent on Procegen. So it in and of itself as it existed cannot exist. But can

a suitable replacement be named? What can a suitable successor? The version that the word was that a successor was going to be the guy who had actually formed it initially, but that guy got killed on the plane, so you know, the word was that, well, you can just blow him out, and this guy really knows the organization from the inside out, and he'll run it he doesn't have proceedons baggage right, Well he's dad now too. Unfortunately that guy went down with the same plate. So yeah, that's that's

that. So Larry, is there anything else we need to add to this? Or should? I just remind people to obviously at all times, I suggest go pick up Larry's work, Go check out his blog, go to Larry dash Hancock or Larry Hyphenhancock dot com, check it out, pick up his work wherever you can, and keep your eyes peeled because we may be appearing in Dallas together in November, but also we're gonna have some other stuff to discuss. The UAP group that you work with just put out a brand

new report a couple of days ago, I think, right. Indeed, sixty four page study. So sixty four page study's not like a sixty four page study has lots of charts in it. There you go and goes all the way from what year did it start? Because nineteen forty five to nineteen seventy five is span of the study. I remembered the seventy five, I couldn't remember the forty five. So basically, from World War Two to the

seventies, the study of the national security. You know what was gathered, what was known regarding this, right, I mean that this is the the concept. But we'll get into the details of that in the future show.

But as for tonight, we covered the JFK question that was asked by a couple of listeners, and I think it's important to always always examine these things and the recent events regarding prosiging the Wegner group, what's going on in Russia, and of course if you want to get a good baseline of knowledge about that, I would suggest a book by Larry Hancock called Creating Chaos, which we've done several shows on, and that is, uh, you know, just as well written as the rest of your work, Larry, and I

really appreciate you taking the time and even staying with me a little over time tonight so that we got a full two hour o'chelly effect tonight, guys, one hour with Mike Swanson, one with Larry Hancock. Anything you want to say in closing, no, that'll that'll do it. Check. My only regret is somehow I didn't manage to copyright Creating Chaos, Like who new it would last this long And we're still we still need to reference it. It's a great book. I've got it on my shelf. Guys, you should

have it on yours. And I don't care if you put it on your kindle shelf or your physical shelf, but I prefer the physical book, so I suggest you get one. I think I have one that is actually signed by Larry. Anyways, I would suggest you have figured out a way to get that. Maybe you can get one in Dallas at the Lancer conference this year between the seventeenth and nineteenth and November. But anyway, we'll have more discussions with you, Larry in the near future. And really really thanks again

for doing this with me. Always enjoy it. Anyway, guys, I am merely O'Kelly all of you, or indeed the effect good