You. Chilly Effect is sponsored by Wallstreet, Window dot Com and listeners liking you now and now and a media Jack twenty second day of May twenty twenty four, allegedly according to that thing we call a calendar, and thankfully the Internet gods are allowing this to happen on a Wednesday. Here we are, and this is the o'celly effect, of course, the show that you're probably catching further on down the stream by your final slab of choice, your applicable
application, all that stuff. It is what it is. But we are live on a Wednesday, and I'm happy to be now. I did go to the stream a little late, but if you're hearing the podcast, you don't care anyway. Larry Hancock is back with me now. Last week I started off a show with Larry, and the Internet conspired against us. It wasn't my fault, it wasn't Larry's fault. Just the Internet didn't want to
collaborate. And I don't know why. Maybe maybe the Internet said, Larry, wait until you present to Daly Plaza before you go on Chuck's show and reveal anything else about just one aspect to what is going to be an upcoming book regarding Lee Harvey Oswald one aspect Mexico City. This is huge, and we're already into our second part of this, and I think we got at least three all together that this is going to be. It's gonna be three
parts all together. You're going to need to listen to to get just a hint of all of the complex circumstances that come together. Now, why Lee RB Oswald? Clearly you know that name. I mean the alleged assassin, right, all right, we know that some weeks before the assassination, he's
allegedly in Mexico City. Now, I say allegedly because for many years I honestly did not believe Larry that he had even gone, because they got photographs that don't look like him, they got conversations that don't sound like him, they got evidence that doesn't look like he even went there. Okay, and for years I said to myself, there is no way this guy even went. Now, over time, I gotta tell you, I don't hold that as a certainty any longer. The more you learn, the more you know.
And it's weird because what happened in Mexico City. We know the big legends, the big bullet points that they talk about in the documentaries. Right, he comes into the one place, he throws a gun on the desk, okay, and says he's in trouble. He needs to get out of the country. All these things. Now, could this have actually occurred? Is Oswald the kind of guy who might be prone to, I don't know,
performances to get things done? Well, you know, ask the people in Russia when he cut his wrists sort of, you know, to stay in Russia and then end up in Minsk and all of that. But no, that's not tonight's discussion. In fact, we need to go into context here and we need to think about what was happening. The disillusioned marine who then goes and defects to Russia, who comes back because he wasn't happy with
that, And then he's here. The press doesn't show up and gather around him to ask him questions, even though he told his brother to get ready for that. Of course, Larry's stopped me anytime I say something that's clearly wrong. But we got to set this up. Marina is not pleased. They have a stormy relationship. At the very least, people say, you know, spousal abuse, and problems and this and that, and maybe he
didn't quite get the wife he wanted either. I mean, it seems as though he's constantly disappointed by things that he thinks are going to be something that they turn out not to be. He's not getting the work he wants, he's not holding a steady job, he's not able to take care of his family. Marina winds up moving in with Ruth Payne. Okay, Marina has a story to tell too. Why. Well, you know, she's about
ready to have another baby. She's had one in Minsk, Russia, whatever you want to say, the Soviet Union, let's cover it all, and she's about to have one here. But she wants to make sure that the citizenship of that baby is reserved, and the possibility of bringing that baby back to the Soviet Union is reserved, and that that baby citizenship is preserved. She wants to leave the door open. She's writing to the consulate or embassy.
Now those two things are slightly different. But she's writing to these organizations, staying in contact, wanting to make sure that her status is one way or another. And it doesn't sound like she's including her husband and her plans. Matter of fact Oswald makes some statements like this. Now, maybe there's some plans that could involve Oswald, maybe there's some that don't. A lot of things are going on, and Oswald making this trip to Mexico City.
Why did he do it? Well, according to the stories that I understand, he was trying to get into Cuba, maybe on his way back to the Soviet Union, or maybe he thought he might find his worker's paradise in Cuba, the newly taken over land you know, Goodel Castro only in there for a couple of year years, And this of course is at an interesting time period. Not a lot of people in America really, generally speaking, would say out loud that they wanted to go move to Cuba or go behind
the Iron Curtain anywhere. Wasn't the most popular thing, but it did seem to be the kind of thing that Oswald, at least from his public announcements, activities, etc. Might be friendly to go do. And maybe he wanted to go there, or maybe it was just a stop on his way to the Soviet Union. Either way, a strange trip to Mexico City, where he allegedly ends up at the Soviet and the Cuban consulate slash embassies, which are on the same compounds each one of these buildings, these two buildings
are on one compound in both places. Now I think I understand this well. But again, we still have the strange pictures of the mystery man, we still have the oddity of the phone calls. We still have all those
proofs. But why don't we set the stage and explain what was going on in their lives and explain what was happening in general during this time period when it seems like somebody trying to be lee Harvey Oswald for sure went and made these trips to these embassy slash consulates, and was in Mexico City, and what was happening just before and what resulted from it? And maybe we'll get
that done in less than an hour, I hope so. And I've got Larry Hancock with me, of course, the author of a great many books and in upcoming volume re examining Oswald as the historical character that he is. I don't know if that name has been finalized that you have on the manuscript, so I don't want to give it yet, but pretty soon you're going
to see this book released. Once all the edits are done, and you're going to have a new perspective because there has been a lot more information that has come out in the past few years, especially that might shine some new light plus perspective, and not assuming that the research community in general had all
this stuff right. And I don't mean the people that try and make Lee Harvey Oswald into James Bond, although those people are out there, And I don't mean the people that want to make him into a complete moron who didn't know what he was doing. And it's some you know, idiotic child running around although he died at the age of twenty four, he wasn't exactly seasoned at anything yet nonetheless interesting character. What was going on, what was the
context? And Larry Hancock again, Larry Hyphenhancock dot com or Larrydashancock dot com. You go there, you can check out the blog. Obviously I'll give links to his books, including stuff like someone would have talked, you know, Tipping Point all that, And as soon as the Oswald book comes out, believe me, you'll see links for that on my shows and everything,
and we'll be talking about it on here too. But Larry, you gave a presentation to Deelyplasa UK about this too, But we're gonna slow it down a little and not go for the conference speed and just try and get an idea what in the hell was going on? I guess in the what would we call that the fall of sixty three, but not quite to Thanksgiving time when the assassination takes place. You're going to help us through that. But
first off, how you doing tonight? I'm doing fine, Chuck, yep, yep, Ready, ready to go, Ready to try to focus this. I think that's been one of our problems throughout on this subject. There's just there's so many things that happened together and in conjunction with Mexico City. If you try to merge them and make them all part of one thing, you end up with no gray sales left at all in your cerebrum. It'll
just blow them away. So part of it is like separating things and making some sense out of them individually, rather than pulling everything apart, and kind of like you said, you know, the beginning question that is often avoided, it's often approached, is this, Gosh, it's strange that Oswell would be in Mexico City. I mean, why would we even think that he would be in Mexico City, and that's not the starting point for most people.
Most most discussions jump right into the middle of it. So yeah, I prefer to talk about what was going on with Oswell, what was going on Marina, and why it really is not strange to find him in Mexico City that fall Well, proximity is part of the issue. First off, he's in Texas, and now is there a way that he could have done this somewhere in Texas without leaving the United States to you know, contact these
places and get this. I think if he was in New York he might have been able to right, Oswell has sort of run out of options at this point in time. As of the September October timeframe, he as you mentioned before, Marina has been maintaining her contact with the Russian Embassy in New
York. She's updated her residency. When she moves, she updates that Oswald has written them some fifteen This will happened some fifteen times during nineteen sixty three, so as far as New York City, that's covered both of them. Marina more than Oswald has actually written to the embassy. She's registered her request to return home, She's had an exchange with them, She's filled out paperwork, They've asked for more details, She's provided more details and appealed with the
fact that the urgency that she has a baby coming up. All that's by the time we hit August, September and New Orleans, that option is off the table because they have responded to both Marina and Lee that yeah, they've
got all of her material, they've accepted it. It has to go back to Mosque for processing, so it's going to be four to five months, which which makes it clear at that point in time that if they stayed that route, unless something special happens, you know, the new baby will be born in the US and nothing can really happen through the New York City, uh, the Russian the Russian embassy. So that option's on record, you know. So that's that's off the table of going there would not get you
any further. So to some extent, if Lee wants to pursue getting her back to Russia and his getting to Cuba, he's got to go another direction. That's really the only direction left open to him is to travel overseas somehow and come into Cuba from overseas so he would still have to get, you
know, an access visa from overseas. That will be difficult. The one way that he knows about as far as how to get into Cuba because he's he's been reading that in the Militant and and the other newspapers he's reading. It's well established that you can get into Cuba if you're a you can show that you're a supporter, and you go in through Mexico City. The US students that have been going and coming to Cuba have gone from Mexico City.
Even the FBIICAA covert operators that are going into undercover of being in the FPCC are going in through Mexico City. So that would be the obvious way to go in, or at least to try to go in. His problem is that he just can't show up at the Cuban consulate in Mexico City and say, oh, just routinely is you know, they're going to ask you why you want to go? You know, do you have a letter from the FPCC, do you have a letter from the Communist Party as anybody supporting your
application? What's your reason? And the only reason that he's going to be able to come up is he really needs to get to Cuba in order to help get his family back to Russia. He can't. He's going to have to go around. He's going to have to you know, he's going to show up the human Embassy and claim that he's got Russian approval already. He just needs a transit visa. You know what, just just give me a
transit visa. And then he starts showing them all the paperwork and newspaper clippings to show them that he really is a support of the revolution and they really should do that. Okay, So I'm a supporter. I know that I one of my best ways to get around just going straight in because I got to wait four, five, six, god knows how many months for this stuff to get processed through Moscow. I would learn intelligently that if I go to Mexico City though, and can make a case that for my family safety
and also I'm a legitimate supporter. Look at look, I was arrested even right for handing out pro Castro literature. You know, here we go, right, I'm also in danger. Now. It kind of explains some of the story that we hear, some of his activities, right, some of this you know, he throws the gun. I'm in danger. I need this to protect myself, right, he told the one consulate worker, he needs a story. And if you really look for some consistency you mentioned it
earlier. This is exactly the way he did things when he got to Russia. When he trieds training in a Soviet Union, they rejected him. They told him no way. He met with there with people from their essentially their diplomatic processing people, who told him, no, you can't stay here. As a matter of fact, you have a train trick as of this date, we expect you to be on that. And they sent him out the door. And it wasn't until he inserted some real drama in slitting his wrist
in a pretty much a planned fashion. But you know, he actually got himself admitted to a hospital and that made it a very embarrassing. So he knows that he may have to be prepared to add some drama to this story. So in a way, that's exactly what we see again in Mexico City. So, as you say, he ended up when the Cubans essentially ended up bouncing him back out of the consulate, he shows back up with the Russians and here's why I think it's really interesting and that people kind of ignore
this. Yeah, all he really did was to show a pistol to the Russians to support the fact that he was in fear of the FBI. He claimed that they had been harassing him in the US, that he was under real pressure and he thought, you know, you never, he might be locked up. He doesn't know that's the story. You know, it's not really a wild man. But he's adding drama the process, which is kind
of exactly what we will see him do later in Dallas. He will draft a letter to the FBI, and in that letter he will say that his family is being harassed and he feels threatened by the FBI. They destroy it, I mean, the FBI doesn't want that sort of claim hanging around. And then after that he writes another letter to the Russians in New York City saying the same thing, Not only the FBI, are you folks really need
to pay attention to our applic It is urgent because they're harassing me. And in November he tells the Russians that the FBI is trying to get Marina to defect. So we actually have three different situations where he has raised this lettle of urgency and adding drama. He feels threatened, he needs help, he's being harassed and by the way, if you don't want it's back, pretty
soon they're going to pressure Marina into defecting. Right. And it's interesting because if you read Ernst Titebitz book, you know the Russian episode, right, he describes very well how Oswald met with the diplomatic people and then they rejected him and all that. It's one of the best descriptions ever, even though you know Ernst meets him in mints later he writes a really good explanation about how that all went down, and then it leads to the dramatic edition of
the slit Risks. So it seems to me like you could almost say, well, this is yeah, this is about typical behavior. He's escalating the situation, trying to add higher stakes, higher drama to it, and why to elicit a response, and so now these things start to make a little more sense, right, yeah. Individually. One of the the things in a quest to understand Oswald and resolve some of this is when we see his
behavior, the first question is is it consistent? Do we see any continuity, and if so, it makes a stronger case for what we're seeing is really Oswald and not something else that's just popped up out of the blue that's going on. So yeah, certainly his pattern of behavior, and including remarks from Marina. I mean, Marina is on record in her testimony is saying, you know, Oswald was all about getting to Cuba as of that summer, and you know, she told them, you know, if you can
get there and send for us, I'll go with you. You know, maybe maybe you'll be better there, maybe they'll give you a job. Maybe you know, you know, we're not doing too well. If you can get there, okay, I'll go with you. Otherwise, you know, we don't know what they said to each other, but certainly from her letters to the embassy, she's even talking to them about the fact that she wants to go back to Russia where she can get a job on her own as
a pharmacist assistant, because she has that trend. She can't get a job in the US. So you you pretty get it, well, get a sense from Marina that you know, yes, she goes back and forth with Oswald, and you know, but she doesn't she doesn't consider herself to be where she really wants to be. Something's got to change, right, So either way, this is about changing your circumstances and things could be better there, and he thinks they could be better there because it didn't turn out the
way he wanted it. Here again we got consistency coming together and hyperbole. Well, gee, you can take a look at all of his actions. He adds drama or greater importance. I mean, even Ruth Payne would say all the time, right, oh well, he always wanted to seem important when he was talking about himself, you know, and he all that leads to is okay, that's kind of an ego assessment. And you know, I don't know what Ruth Paine's psychological training is, but you know, let's
get to it. He's adding a bit hyperbale chuck adding his marine buddies, right, his marine buddies say the same thing when he was coor it's kind of like this. This is a guy who talked above the officers that were over them. He would kind of embarrass them by knowing more about geopolitics and international affairs than they did, and he didn't hesitate to do that. Now
if you've been in the military. That's some sort of drama too. He you know, you can get yourself you can get yourself on KP that way, which he did frequently. You can use yourself in the brig that way, which he did a couple of times. Yeah, yeah, but there you go. This is the attitude of a guy. I mean, look, if you're in the military, generally, even if you're commanding officer is
an idiot, you don't want to point it out to him. That's usually not the you know, the majority of people are not going to go, look at how stupid my commander is. This is not what you do. Okay, you used not in front of you. You may do it to your buddies later, but not right with him present. Right, you know, you're you're off on the weekend somewhere. God, you know, the sergeant's and moron you know. Okay, but realistically, this is the kind
of guy who takes that sort of action. And yeah, even the people that were his friends, right, Delgado would explain him kind of like this, where he was like, you know, smarter above. Delgado's a great example, I think, you know, and a guy who liked to speak to him and you know, and they talked about Cuba quite a bit and
stuff like that. Anyway, I'm getting off track. Were we need to go back to this right where this behavior even though a lot of people just go, look, somebody impersonated him in Mexico City and they dismiss it there, and I always ask why, and nobody ever has a good answer. You know, well they knew the assassination was coming up. Okay, not a good answer, because I wouldn't write that in stone and think to myself, this is what you set up. It doesn't make the most sense.
So here's the thing, all of this pattern of behavior and the attempts to get in to Cuba and to also offer up his family, and to put this idea that you know, look, I'm being harassed and I'm a target and there's a problem here, and here's my gun by the way, because I'm worried about my safety. All of that stuff makes a lot of sense given all of the other behaviors that we do know about from previous circumstances.
So now it starts to make a lot more sense. Whereas before, if you're thinking about somebody impersonating them, why did they go to these lengths. You know, it's a little weird. You know, you could have just drawn up the paperwork and told people look, just to tell people this guy showed up here, here's a picture. But yeah, goods. So what he is doing? I think if you just looked at oswad alone, Yeah,
he goes there, he does this stuff. It doesn't work. Okay, fine, he goes back to Dallas and starts a reset with Marina. Okay, we talked about that. He starts looking for a job, starts learning how to drive a car. And it's kind of like, Okay, I took a long shot, took a hail Mary, and work. You know, if you just had that by itself, we wouldn't be in a
constant flap about what Mexico City was all about. It's the other stuff that happens in conjunction with this being there, with the CIA and things the CIA does and issues with the record and the calls and photos that when you kind of parse that out, it's kind of like, why are we so screwed up about Mexico City? Not what Oswald did, it's what went on in this context of doing it within this CIA's intelligence collection network. And you know,
surveillance and phone taps and so on and so forth. I would even you even have to remember, in terms of context, we know what the CIA was already doing with the Russian and Cuban diplomatic personnel. They were already It's not like anybody needed to recruit Oswald to go in and spend like a total of forty five minutes in the Cuban embassy. And you know he's a
spy, right, Nothing about is time the Cuban embassy makes sense. The CIA has already had discovered they have been using AMMOT Cuban counterintelligence personnel out of Miami, out of Jmwave to penetrate the Cuban embassy. These are these are people that have real covers. You know, they're Cubans, they're exiles. They know, they have friends, you know, the Cuban console is a you know, they have a cousin who knows them, they have family connections.
They can walk in and did we have records of it? And there's no. They don't have to stop to talk to Juran. They go and sit down with ask you and find out what they need to know. And this this has been so effective and been going on for so many months, but this time that there are so several dirty tricks operations going on against Cuban embassy staff, the former head council in Mexico City, Carlos Latuga, Sylvia Durant herself who had an affair with him, Council OSCU, who Osweald just
briefly meets and throws them out of the building. You know, this is already going on. They don't know Oswald is a spy. Really is sort of meaningless in that context because he doesn't have any of the right credentials to get to get inside. Well what about the work inside? Yeah, what about the working relationship in addition, not just that the facilities, but outside of the facilities and people's personal lives, because they have a working relationship with
the Mexican authorities as well. Right, So there's stuff going on there too, isn't there? Oh? Yeah? That that that the what what we tend to forget, uh and it it becomes a big part of the story in explaining why the CIA would have done so many stupid things. Okay, so clearly they obfuscated, they altered records, they kept records by I mean, there's no doubt something really strange went on in Mexico City with the CIA, okay, and their actions because we should. As you said at the
start of the show, they've got cameras. They've got multiple cameras, every doorways covered. Oswell goes into a total of the Cuban consulate, embassy and Russian embassy seven times. They've all got photo coverage and we have no pictures. That's insane, But it's not Oswald's. It's not Oswald's fault. Okay, they got telephone taps on the embassy and consulate phones. If the thing that really appalls me is we haven't blamed this on the CIA to this sufficient
extent because the CIA could have resolved this long ago. There would have been no mysteries. All they had to do is set down even after the assassination, get all their transcripts, call in the translators, let Durand be interviewed, which she volunteered to do, look at pictures, all this right then, right, and there would have been no issues. But they chose a
not to do that. So there's either a very suspicious reason or you know, something's going on with the CIA, quite frankly more than with Oswald. Well cutting to the chase, cutting to the chase. On this, let me ask you this, is it more that the CIA is trying to cover up the totality of their operations because a lot of people go, why would they be covering for Oswald? Right, they're covering for Oswell. I don't
think they're covering for Oswald at all. With this messy record, you know, non existent photographs, Oh, these cameras weren't working, all this stuff. I don't think that's a cover for Oswald. I think it's a cover for them to not ever have to demonstrate exactly how well covered they had all this stuff. How about that? Is that absolutely right? We even know
that we even have documents from CIA headquarters to Mexico City station. They they they chew or they're chewing on Mexico City Station for having Duran arrested by the Mexican police and interrogated and and and essentially saying do not do this people, we everything that we have. Mexico City was second only to Berlin, and maybe in front of Berlin and being the the crown jewels of CIA espionage at that point in time, Mexico City. You mentioned the arrangement the CIA had
with the Mexican president, and the US ambassador was part of that. More LEAs written about that the CIA. Think about how vulnerable the US is from a strategic standpoint if we really dig into those tapes and find out where the tapes were recorded, and find out the tapes were recorded not by the CIA with a phone tap, but at a Mexican telephone switching system staffed by Mexican military personnel and operated under direct direction of the federal police and the Mexican president.
And by the way, that tap is not just on the Russias and Cubans, It's on a whole list of other nations and individuals, including those people who are political opponents of the Mexican president. And this deal allows all this information that's being collected to be shared with the Mexican president for his own political purposes. What if he started pulling these threads the CIA and the government, I mean not just the CIA, but the whole the US national government
as a major exposure here. I think, think of what happened is suddenly the headlines is, uh, you know, Mexan Mexican president gets dirt on opponents through the CIA. Mexico's already under pressure from the communist or trying to overthrow this guy. What more could you give them? Well, and then if you add in our state department cooperating with them, right, it's like, Oh, and also the US was backing this, right, So what's
going on here? Oh, I guess Mexico's in the US's pocket. Uh. And you know, obviously through the President there's leverage over him because this is how he's holding onto political power. And this has nothing to do even again with Oswald, Right, It's just that he ends up in this web. And quite honestly, if you were smart and you were somebody connected to the CIA proper, you might have directed Oswald not to go to Mexico City. I mean, this is a spoiler. Yeah, I think that's what.
Yeah. Because and just to elaborate just a little bit more on how strategic this was. The CIA itself, remember JM Wave was there for a very specific operational reason in Miami to primarily do military ops against Cuba infiltration, exfiltration, send in spies, whatever. But the hub, the nexus of their effort against Cuba in let talking about the Caribbean Central America is all in Mexico City. Because Cuba reaches Central America and South America through Mexico City.
Their diplomatic content go through there. They they send money, they send weapons. It all goes through Mexico. So suddenly tomorrow afternoon you lost the ability to monitor that sort of thing and try to interdict it with the Mexican military, who again, your president, the president, you got a deal, right, so if you give them the right infant, you'll let them intervene.
You know, if that presidency changed and an anti American president took over in Mexico and you lost the resources that you have there, you just gutted your entire effort against the Cuban Revolution across Latin America. You know. So we're not just talking. We're not just talking. We're certainly not just talking
about Oswald. When we talk about why, what the choice that the CIA is going to have to make when this stuff begins to be investigated, The choice is do we what's our priority is do we help in the investigation of the assassination of an American president? Is that our priority? Or do we you know, shuffle around and obscure all this and obfuscate so we don't risk
investigations into things that will be far more damage in the country. Somebody else can solve the assassination, right, So instead of exposing the fact that this gave them a lens into che Guevera, was the revolution spreading, et cetera, et cetera. You know how far does this go from Castro on? Uh? And and there's a lot of island nations there right Uh that that you know, you got Haiti right there. You got a whole bunch of
things happening. Again, not the big headlines, but this was the concern, right, the domino effect of South and Central America, Honduras, Dura. I mean, you've got the CIA direct You've got people going into Jay's office before the assassination saying, look, we've got evidence of how Castro is amping up, and the CIA is behind this. They're collecting this evidence,
and of course they would do the same thing with John. But yeah, Central America, Honduras, you've got, you've got if you start looking at the documents. As a matter of fact, and Morley does a great job with his book on Mexico City. It's Mexico and Central America were more at risk from communist movements than we would have liked to have thought about at the moment that there were very strong movements that Russia had even put their own cadre,
and this is documented. They were infiltrating Russian cadre into Mexico to set up the sort of armed resistance groups that we were doing in Cuba. Uh and and again Jeff brings that out. One of the that's one of the things that we was reeled in the phone taps. But it's not just phone taps. Let's go through the list. The CIA, with the with the help of the Mexican federal police, they are copying every cable that goes in and out of Mexico, every every telegram, every wire, every cable,
copying all that. They are copying the flight logs and travel logs of everybody coming to and from Mexico. We know, obviously with a focus on Cuba, but anywhere. I mean, they're collecting all this. They have mobile surveillance teams to track anybody that comes through that looks like they might be an
agent. They just have an immense amount of resource in Mexico City. And all of this exists only under the purview of this arrangement with the Mexican President, which is It's virtually unique at that point in time because the Mexican president president considers himself to be under political pressure from these groups, including the Communist So when we lay aside, when we lay side by side, I should say, the circumstances in Mexico City, the importance of it, the keys
that this gives them to the you know, communist world there, and everything else, and what's happening with Russia and all of these things. We put that side by side with the Oswald circumstances, and I do mean, you know Lee and Marina, right, we put these things side by side.
It's kind of strange because again, I mean, I know I made that kind of a you know, flipping remark there, But truthfully, if I was somebody who was connected to the CIA and I had any sort of communication with Oswald, I'd be telling him do not go to Mexico City, because he's going to get captured all over the place in a web of my own surveillance, you know, my people's surveillance and not just mine. But like you said, all these all these elements come together. But what does this
mean ultimately? You know, what is even worse or what is equally bad? Let's put it that way. Uh, And and this is something we could talk about. You will make Oswald visible internally within the system. Suddenly Oswell will become visible to the FBI. Wait a minute, Well, we were we were concerned about him in New Orleans and him in the FPCC, and and now what's he doing? You know, you will focus FBI attention
on him. You will, You'll make him visible internally. And one of the things we see is and again Morley Juman did a great job of this with Roman, It's sort of like there are groups within the CIA that have an operational interest in Oswald. They they are things that they are considering doing with him. Well, as soon as he shows up in Mexico City and in any American trying to travel to Cube but that's illegal, immediately sets off
alarm bells. And we know what did we know that the station chief in Mexico City immediately issued in order to find out who this American trying to travel. Yeah, you set off alarm bells and you start circulating information within your own system, and that does not make some people happy, which is why they found out that when Mexico City started asking for information on Oswald, headquarters
started playing games with them and not provide it to them. So, as you're saying, Chuck, I certainly wouldn't want to say him that I send him anticipating the fact that I'm then going to have to start covering up information on him within my own agency. Right, And this is just after Hoover had dropped the alert on him, right, because literally that alert was dropped what thirty forty days before this was it? I mean, it's yeah, and it's not like this is going to become You sent him to the one
place. I mean, he can go to New Orleans and who cares. Right, the FBAI is going to treat him fairly nonchalantly. He shows up in Mexico City trying to travel to Cuba, and everybody's going to be advised the immediately the day after the phone call was made by Duran to the Russians saying there's an American you know, interested in traveling to Cuba. As soon as the station chief hears that, he issues the directive to find out who this guy is. As soon as they find out that it's Lee Harvey Oswald,
as soon as that name is associated with the American. Immediately the FBI le Gott, who's they send their people in under coverage, just like the CIA. He's a lawyer, but bottom line he's he's FBI at the at the American mission there. He he immediately as soon as he finds out locally, not from anybody else, but from his peers at the CIA, he sends a letter directly to j. Edgar Hoover saying, Oh, this guy Oswald, who we're pretty sure defected to Russian already, h is here and
he's visiting the Russian embassy, and boy talk about ringing alarm bells. You know, would would you want to do that? If you're a CIA and Oswold is your agent. I mean, you and the FBI get along, you have agreements, but you know, do you really want them suddenly to have your guy on their ray to her? No, especially because you already have the ability to cross references with the whole thing from his mother sending the letter, you know, and the FBI looking into where he was going to
school and when he disappeared or whatever. Right, you got the whole thing going on with his his well, you know, not quite defection, but his arrival in the Soviet Union, then his return all of this stuff. This is exactly what you don't want to trigger. Okay, now we got to put all these things together. What in the world is going on here is what the FBI should be asking themselves, because clearly he's not their guy.
Uh, you know, but this is exactly I mean, look, if you receive a letter from Russia, you're gonna you're gonna have the FBI crawling into your background, right, and he was getting letters already. The whole thing is just there's no reason for anybody in a controlled way unless now some people might argue, well, they were setting him up. You know, this is the setup. Larry, what are your thoughts on that though? I mean, this is not the way to set him up my mind.
But maybe and that's that's the other argument. I think the argument. It's an interesting argument as far as so, let's say that somebody, you know, some people would have it the CIA as an agency, you know, there's an operation, the conspiracy operation is already in play, you know, or maybe we've got a set of rogues that are already have it in play. But so the thought has been that we're going to to impersonate Oswald.
We're not sending him. Okay, we have to impersonate him, so he's not even really there necessarily, but we're going to impersonate him in Mexico City and introduce two things that he's being impersonated, Okay, and we're going to introduce the name Costakov. We're gonna we're going to introduce, by way of this imprompersonation that he has been in contact with the Russian agent. Okay, a KGB agent. Okay, we know that. So, by the
way, just your average man off the street couldn't do this. It has to be somebody in an intelligence agency who knows the implications of Costakov and costa GOV talking to Russia. To Oswal, Yeah, the average citizen in nineteen sixty three would have no idea who the hell Costakov is or what you know? Section would please nobody knows Section five. But none of this, okay,
Oswo wouldn't know who Costakov was. Oswel would know I went to the You know, he doesn't get to go to the Russian embassy and ask for somebody. He gets to go to the Russian embassy and say, could somebody talk with me? He doesn't go and ask for cost to call. So he would know he had not even he would have known, But yeah, that's the point. But then then the concept is that that somehow, after the assassination, this will become a real concern. You know, Oswald talking
to the Russian, to the KGB just weeks before the assassination. Maybe there's a Russian conspiracy. So I think that's a you know, in terms of internal consistence, it's the NBA, right, Yeah, that's you could certainly make that argument. Then it's a matter of does it match with everything else? Right? The only logical counter I have for that, to be honest with you, is, look, it's just to make him out to be the communist sympathizer that he is. He's still the loan nut, right,
but he's a communist sympathizer. That's why he loves Castro. He's trying to get back into Russia again. You know, come on, he's a community, he's a comedy. That's all right, He's already in play from New Orleans. We've got those headlines already. Absolutely that you don't need headlines to say. I've got a copy of a newspaper from San Antonio on November twenty
third, says Castro supporter kills President. You didn't need to know about Costakov to produce that, and it all comes it all, it's all there as a matter of fact. If if let's take one step further and let's say that this is a real serious plot by intelligence officers with resources inside the CIA. These guys know how to carry off read Harvey's notes in terms of how to carry off a deniable assassination that you're going to blame on the Russians,
okay, or the Communists. I mean, they know how to do it. You can create you can fake photographs of OSWO meeting with a real Castro agent. They've done that before, a standard practice. Fake a photo, you know who Castro agents are, Fake a real covert communication. I mean the CIA JM Wave had a whole list of Castro intelligence agents. So you can fake a photo, fake a call, fake you know, something real. You can set up a whole you know, yes, oswell is,
you know, set up a real payment. You could set up something that was really solid that you dump on the table at the time of the assassination. And there's no doubt about it. It's not just a name. It's just not a fifteen minute meeting in Mexico City. It's a real hardcore indictment of foreign sponsorship of the assassination. But that's not there. All we really have is for someone, you know, is the issue of impersonation and a
brief meeting in the open and by the way, not covert. Oswell goes to the Russian embassy and walks in and meets you know, and it's on record, right would you do it that way if you were a Russian spy master. Actually, Kostakov is known for a meeting with like Tumbleweed and with Russian agents in the US and has been under surveillance, but he doesn't meet with them at the Russian embassy. He meets with them out in Mexico.
You know, this is this is spike craft. So now that if that would be my counter argument to that, if you're doing it with intelligence professionals, you could make it. This isn't a very good solid case. And the strange thing is the same thing the same people that have the same theory of a poison pill that has intelligence agents behind the Coostakov Oswell impersonation record what
happens within like three or four days after the assassination. These are Mexico City comes up with the guil Roberto Alverado story, which does indeed have Oswo meeting with real people in the Cuban consulate. They have their names, they have their descriptions, and Oslo has seen taken cash. Now is that supposed to be a backup story. It's a better story than Costakov and it falls totally apart within like three days in the FBI investigation. So the poison thing.
I wouldn't claim that the poison pill concept is not real. You just have to look at all the other things that are going on and find more to support it. And one of the things that strikes me is that when director Hoover knows all about oz Will being in Mexico City and on the day of the assassination, go oh, yeah, we know he was there. We know he talked to the Russians. We know he either went to Cuba or he was talking about going to Cuba. We're not sure why he knows all
that, and he doesn't really make a big deal of it. In a conversation with Johnson within a couple of days of the assassination, he even says to him, look, we know he was down there. We know he was doing something right. I mean, isn't there a recording of that as well, where he tells Johnson, look, you know, we knew about this and that we know who this kid is. He's not worried about Oswell. What he's worried about is at that point in time, and for some
reason we don't totally understand. I say, there are a lot of mysteries going on for some reason the evening of the assassination. As early as the evening, the concern is that Oswell has been impersonated. That the impersonation is the big concern. It's not so much cost. It's like he was impersonated. We don't know who, we don't know why, but clearly there's some other people with knowledge of Oswald and we may have a conspiracy. Maybe they
really did set him up. It's not so much that that he's a sponsored foreign agent shooter. It's that maybe these other people impersonated him and set them up. And I think that's really it has always been the interesting thing to me. And Hoover's not concerned at that point in time about Oswald being you know, they pay this ass and he's concerned about being a patsy, which is odd and okay, so what can we make sense of it? You know, to this point and we'll get into solving this whole thing in the
next part. But how do we put a cap on this part of it? Like, what is the most sensible explanation of what it is we witness? Again, we put aside, side by side what's going on with Marina and Lee and you know personally what it is they're attempting to do what makes the most sense just logically. Look, they're dissatisfied with their circumstance, they're
trying to change those things. They're looking at different options. We got all that, and then you have this nexus of intelligence games that are clearly of importance in Mexico City. He should have been captured. I still don't understand these, you know, pictures of the guy who looks like Alex carras you know from the football player right, uh, you know, the mystery man photos, you know, and and all that. I still don't understand that.
But anyway, let's put this aside. We know that there is a web of intelligence assets to capture stuff like this with good reason, with agreements with the government, with the CIA, with the you know, all of that how do we make sense of this Mexico City trip? Is it just as it appears? I mean, Oswald literally just said, look, I'm gonna just take a shot at this, because we're gonna wind up waiting too long on them to process in Moscow and they might not let me back in
anyway. And Cuba is a difficult thing to get into, but I gotta make a I got to a stake a claim and try and get in there, because that's the only workaround I have. Does that make the most sense. Yeah, I think what makes the most sense is we have to separate Oswald and his agenda and what he did, which actually was very minimal in Mexico City. Provably about what Oswald did? You know, if you accept what the Cubans say, you accept what the Russians say. It was very
straightforward. So let's kind of take Oswald out of that picture. Now, what I would say we're left with the real mystery is why we have a mystery. And you almost have to back up and say, you know, there were several weeks that passed between the time that he was supposed to be there, okay, and where all of this becomes a big mystery after the assassination. Why why wasn't it all resolved? As you say, why why wouldn't it be you know, why why are we unsure that it was Oswald?
You know, We're not unsure because of what Oswald did. We're unsure about what's going on within the CIA itself, communications between the station and headquarters headquarters in the station headquarters and other government agencies of the Mexico City station, like the LEGOTT and other government I mean, we even we're in Dallas. An agent Hoisty is told by somebody from the I n S that Lee Harvey Oswald has been in Mexico City. It's not like nobody knows this. So
why would any of this be confusing? Why? Why would suddenly the issue of an impersonation and become a big deal when up to that point in time, there really is no nobody's confused. We all you know, we all know he was there and you know, so why would suddenly that change? And I think that's our next real question to tackle, Chuck, You know,
why why is there a mystery? And the mystery appears to come from inside And I think when we reset to deal with it, it really all gets back to Jane Roman when she's asked the question about why would you you know, it's clear that people are confused and this thing about OSWA was not reconciled because you were circulating misinformation and incomplete information. Well, right there off the bat, we know why there's a mystery because people in different locations are
receiving bad and incomplete information. It's not Oscle's fault, you know, as you said, why isn't a current Ostel photo in Mexico City and being shown? You know, why is it? Why is the mystery man photo? Where are they confused? And I think that's what we have to explore because that's where the real mystery is. Well, I think the next time we get together to Larry, here's what would be a useful thing to do is to say, look, absent the assassination, what would have happened with this
information? There is clearly something would have happened with this information. As you stated, Look, it was illegal at that time to even attempt to enter Cuba, right, You couldn't try to make travel arrangements to go to Cuba. This is something the FBI is already watching him. I think, absent the assassination, we might have a different outcome here regarding all this information too, and there'd be no need to cover everything up because the whole world wouldn't
be asking questions about this guy. Yeah, before the assassination. It's just we know he was there. As Hosty will say, you know, it's not like I didn't try to do something. I tried to locate him right right. I went to his wife, I found where his wife was living. We did a pretext call to where he was working to confirm he was working there. It's weren't like they were totally ignoring him, you know, So it is they They did respond, And of course, as you say,
one of the problems is all that sounds well and good. You know, if your boss asked you on November tenth, what are you doing about this Oswald guy, you go, well, I went and interviewed his wife. I found out where's stayin or she's staining I'm working on. But that sounds good. Then on November twenty second and twenty third, it doesn't sound so good. Exactly exactly the issue. So next time we get together, we'll kind of handle all the rest of these issues and sort of sum up
the mystery of Mexico City, Larryhncock once again, Larrydshancock dot com. Go there check out his stuff. And we are talking about this because there is an upcoming book regarding Lee RB. Oswald and taking another look at some of the information that some of us are extremely familiar with, some of us maybe to different degrees, but there's a lot to be said here about this historical character and you know what, maybe it is a good time to re examine,
especially after new information has emerged and everything else. So Larry, I thank you for doing this with me again this week. Oh you bet. And by the way, check the title is going to be The Oswald Puzzle. Oh, the Oswald Puzzle. There you go, The Oswald Puzzle by Larry Hancock. That's what we'll be seeing coming out probably sometime this year, you think, uh yeah, I would think so excellent. Can't wait to see this thing, really, and who knows, maybe we'll hear about it
in Dallas excuse me in November because the Answer Conference will be happening. Hopefully it'll be out and available by then. Oh absolutely, I look forward to that absolutely. Anyway, With all that said, again, Larry Hancock was my guest Larry Dashancock dot com. I highly recommend all of his work, and I'll give you you know, I'll give you a couple of links to his books as well. Go get them ahead of when you go get the
Oswald book. But Tipping Point and someone would have talked to have a little something to do with tonight's topic as well, A little little something anyway, Larry, thanks for doing this, and thank you guys for listening. After all, I am merely o'celly. All of you are indeed the effect revelation through conversation In Denial Secret Wars with air Strikes and Tanks by Larry Hancock. Secret wars became a staple of US covert operations and are still happening today.
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