The o'chile effect is sponsored by Wallstreet, Window dot com and listeners like you yeah yeah yeahs in our media. Jack o'celly May fourteen, twenty twenty four, allegedly, according to that thing we call a calendar, this the O'Kelly effect. You hearing us most likely via podcast, you know, further on down the stream and all that, but you could be hearing us live at ocelly dot com and ocell dot com Radio, through your various phone apps and
all that good stuff. Anyway, no matter how, you're coming to this Tuesday Tiesday broadcast, Welcome h Jacob Wornberger was on last Tuesday, and I don't know if I said it then, but he's gonna be on this Tuesday. And I think we got one more planned at least, and why because he's written a bunch of things on the Kennedy assassination. Now, he's written a bunch of things on a bunch of things, but I'm focusing on the JFK stuff with him. Who knows, Maybe we'll get into some other topics
in future programs. I would really like to, actually, but let's stick to the subject at hand. And before I go any further, for those of you that don't know. I just want to note the passing of Zero Wect, who you know, if you're not aware of who he was, and even if you're not somebody who was an officionado, say the content that has been created, the various documentaries, the television programs over the many many
years that the JFK assassination has been studied. Even if you're not aware of that stuff and you're not an intense watcher, I guarantee you remember the doctor who has come on, whether it was during you know, Bugliosi's mock trial or it was on you know, the various documentaries. Almost anybody and everybody who had half a brain who was putting this thing together would have if they were ever going to look at the medical evidence, called upon Zero Wect.
And they did. And he's usually the guy to tell you that the magic bullet is nonsense. And he was doing that since pretty much it happened. And as I remember, he was very prominent in even the CBS broadcasts in the sixties. Uh, he looked a lot younger then, and you know, it is what it is. I forget exactly how old Cyril was. I gotta be honest, but I know he was at least in his eighties, and the Duquane School of Law and Medicine will will certainly miss him.
It is named after him, you know, And and he held conferences regarding the Kennedy assassination. I don't even know what to say, except that I just want to note that we lost a serious scholar of the truth who attempted to educate a lot of people from his own professional standpoint, who paid a price, even I believe, politically, socially and even financially directly personally, in order to alert people to the sham of the evidence that ended up being
presented to the ridiculous narrative of the lone nut solution. Cyril Weck worked at it really hard, and I wanted to note that at the beginning here. No offense to you, Jacob Hornberger, but I think it was necessary, and tomorrow night, when I discussed things with Larry Hancock, I might actually bring this up again, but it's worthy of mentioning various times, and we are discussing the autopsy tonight. So this is a Cyril's wheelhouse and he will
be missed anyway. Jacob. Again, no offense to you, but how you doing tonight, sir, I'm going fine. No, I'm glad you start out with that introduction that I was at the Pittsburgh Duquesne University conference what's known as the Weckt Conference last fall, and it was the second one I had attended, and the man was a remarkable man. He was ninety three, and he just looked fine to me. I mean, he just he looked he was lucid. He's just he looked great. So this comes as
a shock. I mean, even when a person's all like that, it can come as a shock when they seem to be in good health. And you're right, he was heroic. He was willing to stand against the establishment from the earliest times after the assassination, when the official narrative was the lone nut and he had the courage to stand against the establishment. He will be sorely missed. I mean, he's highly revered in this in this movement to
you know, show people the truth about the assassination. Absolutely, and it's relevant to tonight's discussion why because you know, the first guy that ever explained this to me, not personally, but that ever explained this to me on
TV was Sarah Wacked. And what did he explain? He said, Look, you know, after the shooting was over, after all these things occurred, you have a body that shows up at part Darkland Hospital, which is you know, nearby, and they rushed him to Parkland Hospital, and they attempted these life saving you know measures, this and that, and most people have told me over the year's look, the truth about that is they had to. It was obvious that the man was dead. He was not going
to come back. But if there was not great attempts made to try and revive the president ever after, they would have blamed these doctors, right, They would have said, you guys didn't try, he could have miraculously come back. You don't know what the injury was, so on and so forth. But that's not even where the story really gets out of hand. As a matter of fact, the next thing we know is that a guy named
Earl Rose shows up. Earl Rose is the local corner. And by the way, murdering the president in Dallas, Texas in nineteen sixty three was a local crime. So who should have studied? Now, what is evidence? The body of the murder victim? Now it sounds cold, but it's a piece of evidence. Who was supposed to study that. That would be the local pathologist, the local not pathologist, the local corner, the local guy in charge of determining cause of death, Earl Rose, who was at the
at the very least a very competent individual. Take a look at Lee Harvey Oswald's autopsy which he conducted also, and you know, this guy did his job, did it well, and did not create the incompetent mess. Oops, I'm getting ahead of myself. That occurred at Bethesda later on that night. Now he goes there to say, look, gentlemen, I'm sorry, but I got to take possession of this body. It's my responsibility legally the Secret Service. Some you know, different descriptions here. Okay, some people
say they grabbed their weapons. Some people say they pulled weapons at a certain point. But definitely heated exchanges occurred, and they were about ready to run or rose over with the cart that they had loaded a casket onto that they acquired from a local funeral home to get the president's body out of Parkland Hospital.
Now, now, mister Hornberger, you can correct me anytime as I go forward here, But what do we learn that the body was then taken to what would become Air Force one as soon as the president is a board. Previous to that, it's not air Force one until the president is a board. And at that point, regardless of that stupid ceremony with Johnson being sworn in automatically, as soon as JFK was dead, Lynnon mains Johnson became
the thirty sixth President of the United States. So as soon as President Johnson is a board and President Kennedy's body is a board, they take off head for Washington, and later on that night, finally an autopsy is conducted at Bethesda Medical Hospital, a Navy hospital. Okay, anyway in Maryland. But there's a lot to this story, and should we begin here, uh, Jacob Wornberger? Uh? Yeah, Well, let's let's begin where you began back in Dallas, and let me just what you say. I agree with
it. I just want to fill in some of the uh, some of the context here. Sure. I will take one issue with one adjective you used, and that is incompetent autopsy. Hm. I hold, that is absolutely false. Oh, it was not incompetent at all. It was intentional fraud. And there there's a difference between incompetence and fraud. As you know, fraud is within a specific intent to deceive. Incompetence is something negligent,
they they screwed up. I hold that this was an absolutely intentionally fraudulent autopsy, and I think your your listeners will will gather why I say that by the end of the show. But if we go back to Dallas, and you're absolutely right. Under Texas state law, this was a straight murder case. It was not a federal offense to assassinate a president at that time,
so the federal government had no jurisdiction. And once Kennedy's declared dead, the Secret Service has nothing to do with it because their job is to protect the president, and that the new president is Lenda Johnson, and so their job is not to protect the body or anything like that. Their job is to protect the live president. So it was a straight murder case under Texas law. Not surprisingly, the Medical Examiner of Dallas County, who is a pathologist,
is required to conduct the autopsy. An autopsy is, I'm sure everybody knows, is to determine the cause of death. And it's extremely important because the autopsy is almost always going to be introduced in a criminal prosecution. So you got to make sure it's done right. Otherwise the defense attorney will object because the chain of custody wasn't followed or some other technicality. Well, plus,
you don't have a story to tell, right. You have to be able to tell a story in order to prosecute somebody, and a big part of that story is what happened. And by examining the body post mortem, you can tell a lot about what happened during the events that led to the
individual's death. That's the idea, anyway, exactly, so good. So if you remove a bullet fragment, for example, you've got to be very careful to market and hand it to a person who then marks it hands it to another person so that a complete chain of custody is kept on that particular piece of evidence. Otherwise a judge is not going to admit it into evidence at the criminal prosecution because if there's a break, then that means there could
have been fraud. Right now, that's the bullet, that's the clothing, that's every part of the body, anything the person had on them, et cetera, et cetera. Right exactly, So go ahead continue this now, So Earl Rose, the Dallas Kenny, medical examiner says, I'm going to conduct this autopsy, and it was just normal, and he just announced I got to conduct this autopsy. At that point, a team of Secret Service agents headed by a name man named Roy Kellerman goes into action. Kellerman is
carrying a Thompson submachine gun. His team is carrying pistols side arms. They pull their suit coats back to brandish their guns. They don't pull their guns out, but they show that they're armed, and they're screaming and yelling and cussing profanity and they Kellerman says, you're not going to conduct an autopsy. You're going to move out of the way, and we're getting this body out of here, and they Kellerman specifically says he's following orders. Now. Who
is Roy Kellerman. Kellerman was the guy in the seat in the limousine in which the president was riding, and we covered that part of the situation in the Zubruder film last week. Right, So the front passenger seat of the limousine that the governor of Texas and the President and their wives are both or all four of them in the back of the car, but in the front is Roy Kellerman and the driver. Kellerman is on the radio, he's sitting
in the passenger seat. He's not the driver. He's in the passenger seat. Okay, go ahead, right, and a guy named Greer was the driver. Correct. Now you'll recall that one of the assertions I made last week, which you were kind of skeptical about, is I said that there were fifty seven witnesses who said that they saw the limousine make a complete stopper and near stop. And it is my assertion in my book An Encounter with Evil, the Abraham's a Breweder story. Just to show you how these two
books and these two events enter link. That stopper near stop was removed and the copy of this Zabruder film that they came up with the CIA did. Now, if the car stops, that's clearly incriminating evidence for Greer and Kellerman, because once one shot rings out, the smart thing to do is to slam on the accelerator and get the heck out of there so that there's not
a second shot. At the same time, Kellerman's job is to jump over the seat and cover the president and be willing to give up his life for the president. And that's what Clint Hill was doing when he was trying to grab onto the back of the limousine as he was running. He was going to cover President Kennedy's body with his own body and sacrifice himself. This is their sworn duty. Kellerman sat there like a bump on the log and just looking back. Well, that can't be any move can jump after the first
shot. That cannot be disputed. No matter what you think you saw in the film or didn't, Kellerman does not make a move. The only Secret Service agent you see doing an action like you describe is exactly exactly. The guy who was actually assigned to protect Missus Kennedy is Clint Hill. But he was stepping in and trying to put his body over the now already wounded president, right right exactly. Okay, So now here, this same Kellerman is
at Parkland saying you're not going to conduct this autopsy. We're not going to let you in. One Secret Service agent actually physically picks up Rose and carts him over to a nearby wall and wags his finger in his face. And the staff there said they were scared to death that they thought, sure somebody's gonna get killed here. So this is a very weird thing, Chuck,
because you know, you expect law enforcement to cooperate with each other. You would expect the Secret Services say, doctor Rose, we understand you have to do this. We're all working here together to get the guy who brought who did this. The autopsy is important. We will stand by as you do your autopsy, which would have taken maybe a couple of hours. No, this is people that are threatening to kill Rose and any other anybody else that
got in their way, and they were operating under orders. There's no way a Secret Service agent is going to do something like this on his own because
it is so bizarre. Well, as it turns out, there's only one person who conceivably could have issued that order, and that's Lyndon Johnson before he leaves Parkland, because when he gets to love Field, after alluding to the possibility that this could be the first stage of a nuclear attack by the Soviet Union, it was clear he was lying about that because he lawlagags at Parkland for about an hour and a half, including removing seats from the back of
Air Force one and having luggage removed from Air Force two, which had been his plane, over to air Force one when both planes were going to the same location, Andrews Air Force Base, and then he summons a federal judge to do a swearing end. So it's clear he knows for certain that he's lying when he says this could be the first stage of a nuclear attack.
But it's also clear that he had to be the one to issue the orders to Kellermann because he's ordered seats to be removed and he's waiting for that casket. His job, Johnson's job is to get that body out of Dallas at all costs and deliver it into the hands of the military. Now why the military. So when he gets to Andrew's Air Force Base, they deliver the body into the hands of the military and the Navy specifically, and they take
it over to the morgue there Bethees, a National Naval Medical Center. Why the military? Chuck. Everybody all just automatically assumed that this was normal. But there's nothing normal about it. For one thing, the government, the federal government has no jurisdiction over this crime at all, much less the autopsy.
And there's plenty of competent pathologists in the Washington DC area, in Maryland, Virginia and d C. All they had to do is say, we're going to bring him over to such and such location Morgue Hospital or whatever, contact one of these civilian pathologists and conduct the autopsy. Quick shout out to
Cierah Weckt on this. He's made that point several times. Actually sits there and names five or six people that he knew personally that would have been ready, and in fact, a couple of them that he knew personally that were preparing to be called, that thought they would be called for exactly this purpose. Okay, so this is is very odd, and I got to tell you that I've never seen a clear record laid out that says that Johnson gave
the order. I've never seen a clear record laid out exactly as to who should have given this order, because I'm thinking to myself, the superiors in the Secret Service, because Kellerman was not the highest ranking Secret Service agent in the uh you know, in the organization. Uh he was on that day. I think he was actually in charge of the group that, you know, like he was the lead agent, say on the ground at the moment.
But he's not the guy who should be giving orders like this. So clearly it came from a higher source as to where I've always had trouble sorting that out exactly where that came from. But it's very strange when he's calling upon the judge to come and swear him in again. As I stated, it's not necessary legally, Okay, despite the fact that he makes this call to Bobby Kennedy, Hey, I know your brother's dead, but can you find me the swearing in stuff? I mean, all these things are going
on at the time before they left Texas. And meanwhile, you can see online if you go look for it, you can find you know, this scissor lift coming down and dropping the casket off into a Great Navy ambulance, which the explanation for many years has been that since John F. Kennedy served in the Navy, they thought that he should go to a naval hospital. I always found that to be a really, really sad explanation for why it is he had to be turned over to the Navy. But please continue.
Yeah, the critical part in that story is that Johnson's having seats removed from the back of Air Force one. That means he is expecting that casket to be delivered quickly. He's not going to be sitting around there for two or three hours for an autopsy. That's why I say that there's no direct evidence that establishes he gave the order, but we can argue from circumstantial evidence,
okay, And that circumstantial evidence is he's removing seats there. There has to be a reason for that, and the reason is he's expecting me the casket there, so they've delivered to the hands of the military. Now why the military, Well, because this is part of the cover up. They needed a fraudulent autopsy to engage in the cover up. And this is one of the most fascinating aspects of the whole plot. It was absolutely ingenious, and
so I'll jump ahead and give you the context of the plot. The plot is to frame a guy who's firing from the rear, and that's Oswald,
who clearly was a government agent. All the circumstantial evidence, as it has leaked out over the decades, points to the fact that Oswald was working for intelligence, either FBI or CIA or some other intelligence Navy intelligence, and they the idea is to frame him who's supposedly shiring firing from the rear, but there's also shots firing from the front as part of the plot, and this was established by a press conference that was held immediately or within an hour after
the assass after President Kennedy's declared dead by Kim Clark, who was the head of neurosurgery there at Parkland, and a guy named Clark. Oh shoot skip, come to me in a minute. Two physicians there that have a press conference that say three times that there is a shot fired from the front through his neck. And so that that shot or shots fired from the front, was clearly part of the plot. Now you can ask yourself, well,
that's just nuts, or say to yourself, that's just nuts. Why would you if you're going to frame somebody who's supposedly firing from the rear, why would you have shots fired from the front. And that's the really brilliant part, the ingenious part of this plot that it was Malcolm Parry, doctor Malcolm Parry. Here's the other position. So here's the plot. They're operating on two levels. One level is that there's a communist conspiracy that has just killed
the president. And part of this communist conspiracy is Lee Harvey Oswell in the back, and that was why they maneuvered him in New Orleans to pose as a communist and then shifted him to Mexico City where he meets with the Soviet embassy and the Cuban embassy and supposedly the head of the assassination department at the Soviet Union in the Soviet embassy, and then they bring him back. Well, now there's people, there's him firing, which nobody doubted, right,
and then but there's also shots fired from the front. So this has to be an international communist conspiracy headed by Cuba and the Soviet Union, which means nuclear war. Oh that's a big problem too, because look, the initial reports that came out in the media. I think here's where the issue comes from. The initial reports that come out in the media. There's a bunch
of people saying that he was struck in the throat from the front. So how do you square that up once people realize that Oswald wasn't in the position to shoot him from the front, Well you have to add a shooter, don't you, Or you have to explain how this happened. Now, this stuff was going on even a long time after, because there were explanations in the paper and other places where people had edited stuff to try and say that
Kennedy had turned around. You know at a certain point that actually made a full turn in order to get struck in the front somehow. And meanwhile, nobody wanted to bother to try and explain how John Connolly was hit, see, because that's always left out of this. John Connolly is struck and he's got a whole bunch of wounds on him, you know. And and well, how do you explain all this? How do you square all this? You can't if you're going to try and narrow it down to one shooter,
can you? Well no, And but you see that that's why I'm saying they're operating on two tracks. That one track. Well, first of all, let me let me let me applying what you just said about him turning around. That actually originated from an article in Life Magazine the week following the assassination. Now this again dubtails with what we talked about last week about the
Zabruder film. Remember that the Zeebruder had sold his film to Life Magazine, so Live Magazine was in custody of this film at least by the following week. When Paul Mandel, who's a columnist for Life Magazine, right to column that says the Zabruder film shows President Kennedy turning around and facing the school book depository when a shot rings out that hits him in the front of the neck. Well, nobody could see the Zabruder film because Life Magazine was to question
in it for the next twelve years. And there's one guy that would have known it was a lie, and that's the Bruder because he saw his film fifteen times. But he kept his mouth shut, as we talked about last week. But clearly Mandel was lying. Now my hunch is he wasn't knowingly lying. My hunch is that the Life magazine bosses told him that's what the
Zabruder film showed. But clearly it was a lie. Well, there's a couple other people that should know that too, including Dan Rather, who was there attempting to negotiate right for CBS for the rights to the film when Subruder had that little meeting at his office. Right, I mean, there's that going on too. And Rather runs down onto the station in Dallas and says,
you know, President Kennedy's head clearly violently flew forward. You are aware of that piece of film too, right, Well, he's looking at the original film or a copy of the original film, well, but the real copy, an original copy of the film. But in other words, he's looking at a different film than the film we're looking at now. Well it's pretty wild, though, I mean, that's quite a drastic change, though, because you know, the head violently, you know, being flung forward
is something that I think I've only ever heard Dan Rather say. So, I don't know, you know, the guy's supposed to be observing this film and evaluating it and trying to make an offer on behalf of his bosses there, which apparently was a pathetically low offer and wasn't even you know, close to what life was going to offer and all that. But anyway, let's not get bogged down. And I'm just saying, there's there's a handful of people who did see this right at some point, So go ahead, please
can take remember what I said last week about Dino Brigioni. Brggioni says there was more than one frame on the headshot, and yet in the film we see the extent film is only one hit one frame, all right, But moving forward here they're operating on two tracks. It's complex, it's complicated, but it's a very sophisticated plot Okay, so they've got an international communist conspiracy, which means nuclear war. So it's either go to nuclear war or shut
down this investigation. And that's the brilliant part of the plot. They say, we've got to shut down this investigation. We have to just subtle on that this is Oswald only loan nut because we cannot go to war. Okay, because if he's a commy sympathizer, but he's American and he's just twisted, then that's just something that couldn't be helped. Right, He's just this crazy kid. No big deal. We couldn't help it. We don't have to have a war, like you know, the military doesn't need to react.
However, if this was orchestrated by higher groups that you know, put different people in position and conducted this thing. If this was done by Russian agents, if this was done by Cuban agents, etc. Well then obviously we must respond as a nation. Correct, exactly, Okay, except for one thing. It was the Kennedy brothers that started this game against Cuba.
Oh yeah, they had Operation Mongoose. They had sabotage terrorism in Cuba and the CIA, which probably unbeknownst to the Kennedy brothers, but maybe not. The CIA says they knew the CIA was trying to assassinate Castro, So Johnson and the plotters say, we can't afford to go to war when they were simply responding to what the Kennedys were doing. So we need to shut this
thing down immediately or we're going to be in a nuclear war. When it was the Kennedy brothers that started this game, this assassination game and so forth. So they used that is the excuse to shut down the investigation, and the Assistant Attorney General immediately comes out with a statement on Monday morning saying, we've got to settle and make the American people realize that only Oswald was involved. Now that's Katz and Ball you're talking about, right. So what they
do is they get the investigation shut down. That's the ingenious part of this plot, based on the frontal shots. But then the other level is they have to convince the American people that there were no shots fired from the front that these these doctors in Dallas were all wrong, and that's where the fraudulent autopsy comes in. They've got to get the body into the hands of the military. So that the military can conduct a fraudulent autopsy. That says,
oh no, no, the Dallas doctors were all wrong. There were not any shots fired from the rear. They all came from I mean any shots fired from the front. They all came from the rear. And that leads to the fraudulent autopsy. And there's I know we have limited time here, but let me give you one example that's detailed in my book, the Kennedy autopsy. They sneak the body in early to the morgue, earlier than the official time. The official entry time into the morgue, which everybody agrees with,
was APM. That's when you mentioned that the casket from Dallas, the big heavy casket, was put into the back of a Navy vehicle and then slowly driven around to the Bethesda National Naval Medical Center. It had Missus Kennedy in there and Bobby Kennedy and they don't, of course know what's going on.
But what's really going on, and this is detailed in my book, is they have taken the body out of the casket, put it in what's called a shipping casket, a lightweight shipping casket like they use for bodies in the Vietnam War. That's used to ship bodies in airplanes and so forth. They put it in a shipping casket in a body bag. When it was not in a body bag at Parkland, it was wrapped in white sheets and they take it over first by helicopter and then in a blackhearse to the morgue
where it arrives at six thirty five pm. So the official entry time is eight pm. The early entry time is six thirty five. Now how do we know this? This is the test the statement that a guy named Roger Boigen gave the Assassination Records Review Board in the nineteen nineties. This had been kept secret because everybody in the autopsy were relating to the autopsy had been sworn to secrecy and had been threatened if they ever talked about what they saw.
Boygen told the Assassination Records Review Board that he was in charge of the marine detail, he was a marine sergeant on that that evening, and that he witnessed the the casket, the shipping casket being taken in at six thirty five pm into the morgue. Then other Navy personnel that were inside the morgue said, we saw the President's body taken out of there. It was he was
nude, he was in a body bag. And so when this is established, Chuck, you know that there are shenanigans taking place, because you don't sneak a body in and lie about it for decades without shenanigans taking place. And the shenanigans were they get the body in early in order to hide shots fired from the front and make it look to the American people like this was
a loan net assassination with spots fired from the rear. So here's the thing, right, this gets awfully confusing because you have testimony from people that are supposed to be watching these things the cheap of the day. You have, you know, different individuals who were coremen, who were working as assistants to the autopsy doctors, et cetera. And there are all kinds of contradicting statements
here right. In fact, there's even a description of a different looking morgue because there was more than one room that could be described as a feeder for an autopsy there, and there may have even been more than one room where different things happen. But the overall description and what we know from the FBI agents is very important, isn't it. It's extremely important. You're talking about Sibert and O'Neil, right, and they they were FBI agents that were there
and drew up a report. But let me point out something really important in the context of what we're talking about, and that's regarding Roy Kellerman. Now where we're not back to Kellerman and Greer, the guys that you know. Kellerman led the team out of Parkland and they were the driver and the passenger in the limousine. They have to figure out how to get President Kennedy's body
back into the Dallas casket. Remember I said that it was in the shipping casket, and the Dallas casket is up there being taken to the front of the facility with Missus Kennedy and Bobby Kennedy. They need to figure out how do we get this body back into the into the into the casket. Well, guess who leads that operation. That's Roy Kellerman and William Greer. They were in charge of getting the body back into the UH into the Dallas casket
and they used the two FBI agent Sibert O'Neil to pull that off. Now, siber and O'Neil didn't know what they were doing. They didn't know this was part of a plot. They thought that they were just carrying in this this Dallas casket which was empty. They helped carry the Dallas casket into the morgue, and they thought that was the official entry time, that's what they were led to believe, which was seven seventeen, and so they they're shunt
it aside. Kellerman and Greer take them after they helped them carry the this heavy casket into the morgue. It was on actually a dolly or what's called a church truck. They rolled it in. The four of them rolled it in. They they shunt Kellerman and two FBI agents Aside into a separate room. They put the body back into the Dallas casket. They wheel it back out to the to the ambulance and then it's reunited with the color Guard so they can be brought at eight pm. And in the meantime, Sivert O'Neil
have no idea what's going on there. They're over there in this separate room. But I'm just I'm trying to show you that Kellerman a Greer were dirty. They were into the splot up to their necks. Well had to be because here they are from the time he's still breathing and actually getting shot, all the way to this this shell game going on with caskets and the delivery to you know, like you said, Okay, maybe it's more accurate to
describe it as Frauduly, it looks like an incompetent autopsy. But if it is done intentionally, you're right, it would be an intentional fraud of an autopsy. And these guys are neck deep in the whole thing all the way through. You got it, So you know whose orders are they working on? Okay, Now here's another fascinating part of this thing. There's another shot fired from the front that leaves a massive exercise hole in the back of Kennedy's
head, like an orange size hole. But if you look at the autopsy photographs, the official autopsy photographs, it shows the back of Kennedy's head to be intact. Now, there's a recent documentary that just came out, What the Dallas Doctor Saw I think that's the name of it. Yeah, really great documentary. I highly recommended people to watch it because the Dallas Doctor paramount, plus it's on the streaming service there. Yes, they're unequivocal I mean
especially doctor Robert McClellan. I would suggest that people recommend to people that googled doctor Robert McClellan JFK and you'll find a bunch of interviews that he did. This guy was a renowned surgeon. He went on to be have an illustrious career. He was only like thirty something, but he went on to work at Southwestern Medical Center, one of the best hospitals in the country. Renowned career as a surgeon, wrote a textbook and stuff. To the day he
died, which wasn't too long ago. He said, I went to the head of the gurney and I saw this massive exercise hole, he says, like a size of an orange or something. And he says, I knew the present was dead at that moment. And he says, I called the other physicians and said, have you all seen this? And they said no, we just got here before a minute before you did. And he says, you need to come and see this because it was a fatal wound.
There was no way that he could survive it. Now, as you pointed out early on, they went through the motions, but they all knew he
was dead. Well, so the Assassination Records Review Board discovers, in addition to Sergeant Boygen discovers a woman named Saundra Spencer, and she was a Chief Navy Petty officer at that weekend November sixty three, and she worked in the the Navy Photographic Lab developing photographs, and she worked closely with the White House President Kennedy, especially on the development of social photography, the kids and so
forth. She tells the ARB a remarkable story. She says, on the weekend of the assassination, and this was the first time she had said it, because they had told her it was classified, and you know what classified means, you don't talk about it for the rest of your life. Well, they released her from her valve secrecy, and she said, on the weekend of the assassination, they brought me the autopsy photographs to be developed,
and she says, I developed them. So they showed her the one with the back of President Kennedy's head, the ARRB did, and that's in the official record, and she says, no, sir, that's not the photograph I developed. The photograph I developed showed a massive hole in the back of his head, and of course, a massive hole means an exit wound right now, Just to be clear about this, from the bootleg you know, the bootleg images that are available on the end in a lot of places anybody
listening can find them. You can see that there is a hand holding up a flap of skin on the back of Kennedy's head, but effectively it's meant to look like his whole back of his head is intact. Okay, that image does match up with one of the images that's in at the archives. However, the things that are in at the archives, there is much more in that collection than what people have seen in what they call the Fox set of photos, because James K. Fox had a copy of these things and
there's a whole story behind that how they got out. But anyway, the thing is they're showing them pictures here that quite frankly, all of these photos have not been seen by the public. Spencer is stating that she's the one who developed the original set. Okay, And by the way, there's more to the photographic story as you go further and the AARRB and when they ask people, especially the photographer record, maybe you'll get to that in a moment.
You know, about these images, does this match up what you remember and go ahead, yeah, and she says no, it had a hole in the back of his head, which match what the Dallas doctor said. And it wasn't just the Dallas doctors. They're the nurses, Diana Bowron, Audrey Bell. She they said, big hole in the back of his head. Clint Hill, who was lying on his President Kennedy's body all the way to Parkland, he said, there's this massive hole in the back of his
head. So people are put in a position either these photographs are authentic and all these people are lying, or the photographs are fraudulent and everybody's telling the truth. And I would suggest that there's no reason for these people to be lying. Now here's the interesting thing where dovetails with the Zabruder film again. The Zabruder film shows the back of Kennedy's head to be intact. It's like a black blackness there, black color on the back of his head after the
headshot. And so for years the people were saying, oh, well, then the photographs must be authentic, the Dallas witnesses must be mistaken or line. But the assassination researchers who believed that the Dallas doctors were telling the truth and were not mistaken. Just said no, that there's a Bruner film has
to be altered. But they could never establish how. The only people who could do it was in Hollywood were in Hollywood, and everybody knew that the film hadn't been taken to Hollywood. Well, that's where it's detailed in my book that what happened was that the film was diverted to the CIA custody on Saturday night and then they came up with the fraudulent copy on Sunday where they painted on a black patch. And I've got testimony or statements from Hollywood experts
in my book saying this is amateurs. It was very good at the time, but now you can tell us amateurs. They just painted on there on the copy. So that's where the two stories dovetail. Now the autopsy and there's a Bruner film. Now you mentioned the photographer, that was John Stringer. Stringer says, those are not my photographs too, he disavowsed them. And here here's another interesting part of this thing. There's a guy named Robert
Knutson that fits into this. He was the social photographer for President Kennedy. He would follow Kennedy around with his kids and his wife and take all the social photography. He is summoned on the weekend of the assassination to go conduct the photographs for the autopsy. He tells his wife this. He comes back on I think Monday afterwards, maybe Sunday, and he says, it was the hardest thing I ever did. It was just horrible having to photograph this
autopsy. He then some years later gives an interview before a national photographic magazine and says, I can't talk about what I photographed because I was sworn to secrecy. But I can tell you I was the official autopsy photographer. And when he died, the Washington Post in the New York Times had obituary saying he was the official autopsy photographer. Well, there's one big problem. He wasn't. Right. According to the official record, John Stringer is the photographer
record for the autopsy photos. Correct, exactly, Okay, but it's clear that Knutson is telling the truth. Now, here's another problem with this Knutson story is that you know he was interviewed by the House Select Committee, Right, you're aware of this, yes, okay, So obviously this was not just known to the ARRB that this guy was, you know, and of course they did a story of this on the men who killed Kennedy as well.
But anyway, back to this interesting interview with the HSCA. Have you ever taken a listen to the audio tape that is available of his interview. No, but I've read it. I read the transcript of it. Okay, you need to listen to it. I'm gonna tell you why. Oh yeah, he's not on it. There is a woman, okay, on there narrating what's happening. I don't know if he's being interviewed or not. I can't sort out what's happening on this tape. But literally, there is
a woman almost reading a transcript on this tape. Okay. And that's the tape they have on record, which is really bizarre. And by the way, by the time the ARRB decided to look into this, he was already passed away, and they interviewed his family to find out what happened that weekend. What did your dad say? You know, what did your husband say? They talked to the wife and the kids. Okay, But anyway, yeah, you ought to take a listen to that tape sometimes because I find
it fascinating that, well, that's not him on the tape. How about that? I find that extremely fascinating. But I also found fascinating that they avoided questioning about what he did that weekend, that all they focused on was
the development of photographs that he was involved in. Next part of the thing I was going to bring up, right, is that they talked to him about developing the photos and what was on those photos is weird enough because he describes a whole bunch of things in his descriptions that do not exist in the bootleg set, that do not exist in the National Archives set? Whatsoever? Do you know that as well? I'm sure? Oh yeah. He said that the photographs had pro the body had probes in them, like rods which
you would stick in to check the trajectory of the bullet. Right. None of the photographs in the official record have probes or rods like that, correct, So it's clear this guy's telling the truth. So he's photographing something that he's made to believe is the auto. We don't know. This is one of the big mysteries of this, but we do know that something seriously amiss. He goes back. He later they summon him to Washington to examine the
photographs. This is a couple of years later, maybe during the House slect Committee. I can't remember, some kind of deal where he was going to examine the photographs. He comes back and he tells his wife, Honey, I want you to know that if this thing ever blows up up, I was not involved in it because the photographs they have are seriously wrong. And so he was trying to protect his own reputation and he couldn't tell his wife
what was wrong, but he said the photographs are fraudulent. That was the essence of his message to his wife. But what's bizarre is it doesn't match what Knutson says he photographed. It doesn't match the film that Stringer says he used. I offer the supposition that there needs to be a third autopsy photographer here, because apparently what exists is not what Stringer photographed and is not what Knutson photographed. So where the hell did this stuff come from? How about
that? Right? Well, I'm not sure about that because Stringer is I recall Stringer's testimony, he was saying that a lot of his photographs were missing. But I'm not sure whether he ever said, you may be right. Well, he stated didn't have an exact memory where he said those photographs I didn't take except on the brain examination. I know he said that, because there's no question he was not at the second brain exam, which is another
subject we ought to go into, which is another weird thing. But I'll tell you just really quickly that if you go over again Doug Horn's work, he makes a very good point that Stringer at one point says, this is not the kind of film I used. That this stuff is photographed on. It's the wrong kind of film, which is but I think he was saying that on the brain examination. Well, either way, we have mismatches.
We have problems here. Oh big oh oh man big problems, no question, and Conutsans at the center of this because the military has never told us what Conutsan was doing that weekend, and clearly conusans telling the truth. Because this guy was a renowned photographer, social photographer. He worked for like four or five presidents. He worked for I think Eisenhower and Truman and Kennedy and Johnson and Moore, and so he had a renown. He was a renowned
photographer. There's no way he would have lied and risked his career. So when he gives that interview to that National Photographic magazine and he innocently says I was the autopsy photographer, there's no way he would make that up because his cohorts would say, you're a liar, you've made that up. You weren't part of that. But they all kept their mouch hut, all the autopsy personnel after he gave that interviewed. I'm sure they were squirming big time.
Well, what are you gonna do if they present to you, Look, you're part of the situation, you're a photographer. And again, he had taken many I think in fact, he might have been responsible for like that famous photograph of I don't know if it was him or Staunton, but I mean he's he's actually responsible for a bunch of iconic images of Kennedy while he was in the White House that people are well aware of. But he might have been responsible for that one with you know, JFK. Junior playing under
the desk that's, you know, quite famous. I'm not sure if it was hm er Stauton, but either way, he's deeply involved in photographing the living president. Uh, you know and like you said, other presidents, and he had a long career, a distinguished career as a photographer. So anyway, it's it's really bizarre what goes on with these photographs. But I don't want to, you know, stick on this because there's still more to tell about the autopsy, isn't there. Oh yeah, well, there's tons
more we can't cover, like the tip of an iceberg. And that's why I recommend my book to Kennedy Autopsy and Kennedy Autopsy too. Oh. Kennedy Autopsy is the biggest seller at the Future of Freedom Foundation and our thirty four year history. But it's based on Douglas Horn's five volume work Inside the Assassination Records Review Board, which is the real break in this case. Horn broke the case wide open. He served on the ARRB staff and when he published
this book and I read it, I said, that's it. That's this case closed for me. He's proven it beyond a reasonable doubt because he proved the fraudsen and autopsy, and one of his big discoveries, along with Jeremy Gunn the General Council, was that there was two brain exams. And this is quite incredible because the two. The trilogists are saying they're just one brain exam, so they're clearly committing perjury if there really is two brain exams.
Well, this is what happened the ARRB we talked about. John Stringer takes Stringer's depositions sworn testimony, and Stringer says, I was the photographer for not only the autopsy, but the brain exam, which place just a couple of days after the autopsy, because they have to let the brain form up get more solid before they start cutting it in pieces. And Treyer says, they
cut it like a loaf of bread. Right, They literally put it in a bucket and they fix it in formula and a specific solution so that it can maintain its shape while they sit and dissect it to examine the different I'm just giving people an idea here in general what happens here. So it's natural that this occurred a few days later because it needed to sit in this brain bucket for a couple of days. Okay, ex So Springer's story makes sense.
Just in case anybody thinks, well, why would that happen you to examine a day's late, Yeah, you do, So this makes sense. Go, go ahead. Yeah. So so Strayer says, I was there and I saw this happen, and two of the pathologists were there. There was the three of us, and so they show him the photographs and this gets to what you were saying. He goes, those are not my photographs. He says, I don't even use that kind of film. I use a totally different kind of film. And he says that the shots I took.
And keep in mind, Stringer is an absolute professional. He was teaching photography there at the at the Bethesda Naval Medical School, So this guy knows exactly what he's doing, and he says, those are not my photographs. I don't use that kind of film. So they take the death and he says, you know, I was there with two of the of the pathologists.
So then they take the deposition of Fink, who was the third pathologist, and Fink says, I was at the brain exam and the other two pathologists and it was about a week later, a week after the assassination. So that's how they knew the gun and torn that there was two separate exams because one took place two or three days later with Stringer as a photographer.
The next one took place a week later with fake and some unknown photographer and the other and so the common denomior where the two the other pathologists Humes in Boswell. So that's how they knew that there was two separate brain exams. Here's another factor. Stringers said, they cut it like a loaf of bread. Like we talked about the brain photograph, which is the official record, which is clearly of the second brain is intact. It hasn't been cut like
a loaf of bread. It's a damaged brain. And let me point out difficult to get a substitute brain because beth Asa was a teaching hospital, so they have all kinds of organs there to teach medical students, so they got a good supply of brains there. So the brain photograph is intact. Here's another factor. They weighed the brain and it's in the autopsy report, and they weighed fifteen hundred grams. Well, the average person's brain is thirteen hundred
and fifty grams. Well, okay, you can say, well can he was a smart guy except for one thing. Everybody agrees that the headshot blew out like a third of his brain, So how could it weigh fifteen hundergrams if a third of it was blown away. And so that's how the ARRB realized they've got fraud here in the autopsy, even more flagrant with two separate brain exams. Right, there's no wayn explanation. I mean in the amount of damage that anybody could agree would have had to have been done based on
what we can see in either the Zubruiterer film or anything else. Effectively, I mean, you got Dallas doctors saying that there was you know, bits of brain leaking out onto the gurney while we were conducting our life saving you know measures here, right, So clearly there's got to be some loss. The brain is damaged in the photo, but doesn't seem to be commensurate with somebody who took a headshot, right, So I mean, is that the way to understand that? Yeah? And in an overall sense, because I
know we're about out a time. Why is this all important? Well,
because there's no innocent explanation for a fraudulent autopsy. So once Horn showed that this was a fraudulent autopsy, I who have had legal background as a trial attorney for twelve years, I said, my gosh, that's it that you don't need to go to d lee Plaza to prove that this was a regime change operation, because once you prove that you've got a fraudulent autopsy that clearly is part of a cover up, and there's no innocent explanation for a fraudule
on autopsy. No one will ever come up with one. Well, who would they be covering up for. They wouldn't be covering up for the Soviet Union or Cuba or the mafia. They'd be covering up for themselves. Especially when the cover up is launched at Parkland Hospital when they get that body out of there, that means that the plot to have the fraudulent autopsy was built into the assassination plane itself. That's how we know beyond any reasonable doubt that
this was a regime change operation because of the fraudulent autopsy. And there you go. And just to just for the record here and I'll have links in the show description and I'll probably drop them in the chatroom Mittlechelly dot com as well, but definitely it'll be with the podcast description. The book titles are simple. The Kennedy Autopsy okay, and the Kennedy Autopsy too, lbj's role. You know, there's a little more to that title. But anyway,
these are not very long books. By the way, folks, these are pretty easy reads, and you can read through them fairly quickly and get the idea about what Jacob Hornberger is describing here even faster than you did during this podcast. I think, Okay, read at your own pace. They're not very thick books. I'm not saying that as a negative of Jacob. I'm saying that it's a it's a plus. You know, you're not going to drown in nine hundred pages to get to the point, is all I'm saying.
And some people do drown you nine hundred pages when they don't have to go to name names. But anyway, it is what it is. You released this initially in twenty fifteen, right, yeah, or twenty fourteen one of the other. So yeah, but it's been out there a while. But I'm telling you both of these, the two of them together are best to get. And we really only discussed the main topics that were covered in
the Kennedy autopsy. The first one, it's got that iconic picture of Kennedy on the front of it, where he's kind of looking down with his eyes closed. You might have seen that in a larger portrait and all that. The part two I think as a black and white picture on the front of it. I don't have it in front of me, but the first one I do. And I actually have both of these books on my shelf as well, So I would definitely advise you guys to follow up take a look
at Jacob Hornberger's work. Again. The name of the book is The Kennedy Autopsy. And you know anything else you want to say before we wrap this up, No, we just want to say that The Kennedy Autopsy is really
a synopsis of horns five volume work. I knew that that would be too much for people to read, five volume book that's coffee table size, so I said, I'm going to do a summary of this book, and I felt like I did a pretty good job of summarizing Doug's main points, and so it's a nice introduction that people can then use to go into Doug's work, right and look, no offense to Doug's work at all, by the way, because I have that on my shelf as well, and I would
definitely advise you want to get into the details. Definitely get inside the Assassination Records review Board all five volumes. I think volume four focuses on the Zubruter film. Volume five might be about the greater implications regarding the regime change itself. But I'll tell you what the details in every single volume there, the reprinted testimony, the stuff that horn puts in there. If you want to dive deep into the details, yeah, get that book, but for a
sort of cliffs notes version of it. Definitely the Kennedy Autopsy Jacob Hornberger once again was my guest tonight and definitely recommend that you take a look at both of them, the Kennedy Autopsy and the Kennedy Autopsy too. In fact, it would not be a bad idea if you order them together. They're available on Amazon and quite a few other places wherever books are sold. But is
there any place that you'd like them specifically to go get it from? Tell it at Amazon, and the Kennedy Autopsy be done with Kindle, and I think we've got it on audiobook too if I'm not mistaken, but at least on Kendle in print right, and I recommend the print books always, but look, nothing wrong with an audiobook, nothing wrong with the Kendle. I think the Kendle probably is one of those read alongs. Again, it's not a very long book, so you're not going to drown in it, and
it's not good for a cross country thing. If you want an audiobook because it's not long, okay, it's short, you're gonna have to combine it with the other one to get to get a bit of driving, like if you're listening to your audiobooks as you drive. But I highly recommend getting the physical books. I always do because you know what, during the digital book burning, nobody can turn around and edit them on you once you have them in your own hands. So I'll give you guys the links to The Kennedy
Autopsy and the Kennedy Autopsy Too, both by Jacob Hornberger. Jenny, I just remembered that we've had a glitz at Amazon with our print version of Kennedy Autopsy that we're working out. We should have it worked out within thirty days or so. But you can't get the print version right now. There's a
glitz there. But if they order it, they'll get it, you know, a month laterism right, exactly, exactly, Okay, So if there's a delay in you getting it, it's still definitely worth ordering, so you know, And besides that, people will hear this later anyway, so the glitch will be gone by the time some people decide to load up this podcast and listen to it. So anyway, either way, I advise that you get both of those books. Jacob Hornberger's the author and next week what are
We Going to Do? Discussed next week motive that Doug horn did a fantastic book for US called JFK's War with the National Security Establishment Why Kennedy was assassinated, and I think it's important to understand why they considered Kennedy a threat to national security and what he was doing. There was essentially a war taking place between the nation security branch of the government and the executive branch, and Kennedy
lost the war. So we're going to be covering that next week. So the why of it, which, by the way, a lot of people have tried to cover this conflict that was going on within the government, described it, foreign leaders had it described to them, et cetera. But you're going to have to hear about that next Tuesday with Jacob Hornberger when he returns
to the Ocelly effects. So until then, guys, I hope that you enjoyed this, and again wants you to go and get The Kennedy Autopsy by Jacob Hornberger and The Kennedy Autopsy too, both available on Amazon and in a lot of other book places where books are sold as well. But if you go to Amazon, it'll definitely be available there. Even if there is a glitch in a little delay, it'll be available there. So until next time, guys, remember I'm merely O chill h Wall Window dot dot verb silver
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