Get ready.
February nineteen, twenty twenty five, allegedly according to that thing we call a calendar. And you know what's funny is I completely was unable to get the anniversary show on the fifteenth out. But that's okay. Sometimes it's better to
not have certain things happen anyway. Wednesday Wednesday, and last week we did the show where we played the tape, right, and I've already heard back from a couple of you comparing you know, the Alex Jones version of what happened to what happened here with mister Stevens, and of course with mister Hancock, who was not on the Alex Jones show. You know, I kind of have double edged wishes for Larry.
I'd love to see him on Alex Jones because it would raise his profile a bit, But then again, would it be a quality interview?
There's the question anyway, not here to criticize AJ today, but maybe we'll.
Criticize somebody else before we're done. We'll see what happens, and maybe we'll get into an addendum to the last show. Because I've got Larry Hancock with me, and I'm glad that I do. I urge you to get the Oswald Puzzle, which is also you know, Larry's co authored that. Okay, David Boylan is on there with him as well, and we did a couple of shows on that book, and who knows, we'll probably do another, but for now, I want to follow up on this Billy Celestie's story. We
heard the audio last time. A few people had questions about the audio. Why was it cutting out? It's because it was played through Skype. And that's one of those quirks to Skype. That's technological issue. The actual tape does not have those silent cuts in it, just because some people said it sounded edited because of that. No, no, no, it's just because Steven played it through. Mister Stevens played it through Skype. Okay, Billy Celestie's grandson played it through Skype.
And when you just have noise on Skype, sometimes you have a setting on there that cuts down on noise. That's what happened, so I wanted to clarify that, and who knows, maybe we'll clarify some other stuff. And again Larry Dashhandcock dot com. You can follow his blog, which I do, and take a look at his other works and all that stuff over at Larry hyphenhandcock or dash handcock dot com spelled just like it sounds, and the
Oswald puzzle. Now I'm gonna shut up stop trying to plug things, cause Larry, it's been an interesting a couple of days for you too. So oh, I have to address the Pierce Morgan thing. Yeah, because guys are asking me about that. But before I do, why don't I let you do it? Larry?
How you doing tonight?
I'm doing fine despite the cold weather.
If we survive the next couple of days with these minus twenty degree wind chill factors, you know, next week will be great.
But the moment, we're in survival mode.
And I was in survival mode, as we said check earlier this week, I had an opportunity. I was scheduled to be on the Piers Morgan show. Right there was a little confusion about the time. I was expecting the remote unit to be at my house at about four o'clock in the afternoon because they didn't want to take any chances. They wanted to do an actual remote unit, not just zoom and so my wife had a doctor's appointment in the morning. We're all set to get all
of our stuff done and be back in place. And just as we were about to have a quick bite of lunch, I got a phone call that says, well, the remote units at your house and you're not there in the show starting.
I'm going whoops, I said, but if you can.
Get here quickly, like drive one hundred miles an hour, we can get you in the show.
And so I did, and.
I did drive radically outrageous speeds, got in, got in the got in the remote unit, and kind of set there for twenty minutes or so because unfortunately Pierce was not able to fit me in behind the other guests who sort of kept talking regardless of his trying to introduce me.
So it was an exciting first part of the week.
And then magically they had to go. And this is what everybody's asking me to comment on. Now, nobody knew that you were supposed to be on the show, because they did they like promo that you were coming up and then you didn't show up.
Or what they did not They did not promo that I was coming up. I was.
I think they had a slot for me because in the first you can see introducing and talking about four of the panelist, right, but he only introduced you only saw three people when it got to that, so I was not in the introduction, and then he did.
I think it was added in that. You know, he'd also invited.
Lee Harvey Oswall's girlfriend Judith, so Judith joined then, but she was not even listed on the pant le either.
So so a bunch of surprises there, like where he's popping up people and you were supposed to be one of them, but they never got to you. And even though you're sitting in a remote van near your house or somewhat near your house.
Yeah, out of the it was near the house and before the storm got here, So that was good.
It was kind of interesting. Was that was kind of fun. The operator was great, We had a great chat.
We actually even had her in after we didn't make it on the show and had had lunch with her, invited her in. So it was a fun experience. But I would have kind of liked to be on the show.
Look, it would have been better for you to be on TV. But then again, I mean, look, I'm already getting these Can you.
Believe Piers Morgan had Judy Baker And I'm like, of course I can believe that.
And I told you you don't have to comment on this, Larry, but I told you in confidence. Some staffer turned around and said, Okay, who's big on Facebook? Who's got a book?
All right?
Now?
Who does Simon and Schuster have? And that's how you came up.
And then they went to YouTube and said who gets traffic on YouTube? Great, here we go. This is the panel JFK stuff. And they did it probably because there is talk about, you know, is there going to be a release of documents from the US government?
And that was it. That's that was the whole premise of that set, because it makes no.
Sense to invite you and Judy to the same panel, like if you not the subject at all.
You could tell that Pierce was kind of working at juggling the people together to get something out of coherent out of you know, this group of people, because they were all in different spaces and you know.
I mean, like, look, I am not a fan of Pierce Morgan's but you know, credit where credits d He has a talent which generally speaking, I have a decent ability to do this. Now, if you have me live on stage, you can't hand me a piece of paper to read from because of my bad eyesight. But I can improvisationally with a couple of facts, create bridges between
people introductions, no problem. Even if I have no idea who's about to step on the stage, and you give me a heads up, like as I'm stepping to the mic, or you give me a couple of ideas about what's happening, I can put it together. And on this show, when I'm behind the mic, it's a lot easier because I have a computer screen in front of me and I can work it out real fast. And you don't usually
hear me typing folks. But I mean sometimes I can pick up information even though I didn't have it in advance of the show, and fit it in and make it sound like I knew exactly what was going to happen next and I had no idea. I've had that happen more than once, where somebody's you know, had somebody else in the room while I.
Was interviewing him, et cetera.
Some people have the ability to do that, and other people require a script. Pierce Morgan is one of those people who can do it on the fly. He needs his teleprompter, but if you give him new stuff and his teleprompter that he's never seen before. You'll get it done. So that's what he was doing with you, is he had, Okay, give me JFK stuff. Don't worry, I don't even need
to read it. And he was making it up as he was going along, and then somebody said in his ear, you have Lee Harvey Oswald's girlfriend on the line, you know, probably because she did her whole I'm in exile, I'm hiding, you know whatever, whatever her routine is lately. And it's funny that you got drawn in to that. And I would have loved to have seen you exposed anywhere. I mean, as I said before, even though I'm not a fan of Alex Jones, at this point, I would have loved
to have seen you on there. And if you do get a chance to go on there, please do. But the point is that I'd love to see you everywhere. But the fact that you didn't make it there, I don't know. I can take a positive feeling from that too, because you didn't end up on a weird panel with a guy who couldn't shut up Judy Baker and god knows what else, you know what I.
Mean, And I didn't kill myself driving one hundred miles an hour either, So there's an upside.
But another positive.
You didn't get injured or caught in a storm or you know, other problems. So look, it's a plus. Okay, you got to take the winds where you can get them. Real easy to show up with me. You just happen to you know, if you can get your skypeworking and your internet's up, you show up with me.
It's easy.
I don't make you drive one hundred miles an hour or freak out or give you the wrong time.
Usually, you know.
So anyway, Sorry, I'm making jokes because people wanted me to address the Judy Baker thing. I'm not surprised that that Pierce Morgan's staff put together this thing for him and he just went on the fly with it. It's it's normal. It speaks to his talent, and that's that's what I would expect of Pierce Morgan.
Not an informed show.
Not you know, like I know exactly what's going on with these guests, and you know I'm gonna ask hard questions. No, none of that. He was just working with what was assembled for him, and unfortunately I would have loved to have seen just you get the greater exposure. But then again, you know, like I said, sometimes you know I agree with pt Varnum, but other times, you know, not.
All publicity is the best.
Anyways, So back to serious work, just real quick again, Billy Celesti's so you've blogged about this. Have you gotten any feedback personally about doing the show with me? Which is a little different obviously again than some of these other shows that this guy did, because even he said at the end, he was like, Wow, this was weird. I was on with two people who knew, you know.
A lot.
Even though he thought Alex was rather well read on the subject, he was kind of, you know, felt that this was a different experience to be on with you and me. Did you get any feedback about about the podcast or anything?
I did not, And I was kind of surprised that I did not, although Shane and I have had some additional background exchanges on Billy Saul and I mean, he knows him his grandfather, but he's not really familiar and and he knows he was a figure in Texas, but he's not familiar with a lot of the timeline, a lot of the details of his activities. So I'm gotten together.
I managed to dig through my research notes back when you know, like twenty years ago, when this was a thing and when I was actually in communication with SD's and it's like okay, and so I'm going to copy some of that and get it off to him. That will help get him up to speed, because he's he's familiar with his grandfather, and he's certainly familiar with with the general problems his grandfather had and with relationship with
Carter and Johnson. But I mean, if you really want to take this further and examine the issues, you know, why why was this recording made when it was made? When the when could the meeting have occurred? That that's described in there. Plus you have to add in what Billy saw ast he's actually had written in his own book, because he he commented on this subject twice. Well, he commented to me, and I have my notes, but I never wrote anything, but he did. He was interviewed by
William Ramonde. We have copies of that interview transcript actually, and Ramon went on to make that into a book and said certain things that Billy Saw had told him. And then when that their agreement kind of came apart, and Estes did his own book. He had at a lot of details in there that he did not share with Ramond, and so there's a real mix of remarks in his in his own story about what e you win and Shane's going to have to to deal with that.
So hopefully I can help him a bit there, because I had to wade through that all myself at one point in time, right.
And I found it interesting that, you know, you presented me he reminded me of a book that I couldn't find, but I know I had a copy. I have a copy of it around here somewhere, but it's probably not at the front of my bookshelf anymore.
Right, And it's.
Kind of interesting because it was kind of a thing for a minute again, And I wonder if you wouldn't talk about that real fast, because you reminded me of this.
Yeah, here we go. Active Treason is the name of the book. Yeah, go ahead.
It's interesting because you wouldn't Active Treason was about Jay Edgar Hoover, and it was really an expose of Hoover and the illegal things that Hoover did, So you wouldn't really expect to find a detailed study of this of the SDS, of the of the murders and SDS, and his doings with the Johnson and and the you know, influence peddling.
But it's in that book.
I suspect because the FBI and the federal government did investigate STS and they investigated the scandals, which means they had to do a lot of digging into his connections to Yarborough, to Freeman, to Johnson to the Democratic National Committee. Well, I had that was in their investigation, and he just pulled it out and put it in a book, which is very handy.
Yes, and I hate to cut into where you're talking here, but it does kind of make sense to me that this works out because if you remember a few years ago, there was a fairly popular series like they called it a documentary, but it wasn't. It was a compilation and they used footage and they did some creative things with the footage, and then they used all kinds of pieces of documentaries and they cut it all together and they called it Evidence of Revision.
You ever see that online somewhere?
No, I don't think I have.
Well they have it in six parts now, But initially it was like jfk rfk MK Ultra and like, you know, and then they did a whole like section on Jim Jones.
I forget what they called it, but you know, and they did a section on the you know, Kennedy assassination where it was like LBJ and j Edgar Hoover and he was part of the bridge, and they did this sort of series where again they cut stuff together, so it was like the relationship between LBJ and j Garoover because you know that was famously they were very friendly. You know, he was adversarial jay Gar Hooober to the Kennedys. But Johnson gets in there, he's his buddy. There were
neighbors at one point. All this stuff right, So to me it makes perfect sense. And I remember seeing that years ago and saying that was a good encapsulation of a whole lot of literature that has sort of gone over this and Active Treason is probably one of the best collections where you could see this like he never states it out right in there, I think, but it's like it's very obvious that there is a collusion of sorts between the LBJ administration and jed Garhober right.
Where jed Garhover is well protected all.
The way into the Nixon administration when he finally dies, right, But maybe he wasn't so well protected while Kennedy was in office. And in fact, there was a whole school of thought well before you started writing on this, you know, through the Torbet document and all that, and I'm sure you went through that stuff at some point, right Larry, I mean.
Oh, yes, yes.
Where there was a collusion between you know, maybe the FBI was involved in the assassination. I don't buy that, you know, were they involved in a cover up? Clearly, obviously, but so was the whole of the federal government. It seemed like, you know what I mean. But anyway, enough of that. My point is that it does make sense that there is this weird place where law enforcement is swimming with the corrupt elements, and Jay gar Hoover has his own issues, and we know about cointelpro and all
kinds of things going on here. Right, There's a lot of stuff happening. And when you look at the Billy Celestie stuff and you understand that that's the FBI, that you know, any of the LBJ stuff could have been happening under what was happening under you know what I mean, It kind of gives you a different lens. So it makes sense to go to something like this where you
have to look at Jay Edgar Hoover to get an idea. Again, just like when we were talking to you know, to Shane, and it's like, look, you got to understand at the time,
this was business being done. And sure some of it was shape and a lot and some of it was illegal, But is it really that bad compared to a lot of other things we learned about later, not necessarily some of it you know, it's it's not and you know, and again it's the misconceptions, right, because looking back at something is not the same as understanding the ecosystem in which it occurred. So that was important. Anyway, That's enough out of me. I just wanted to point that out.
But I thought it was interesting that you pulled up this book that I kind of went, oh wow, yeah, I remember reading that and that was really interesting and useful. But did it make a case, you know, like, oh gee, now I have the uh, you know, the smoking gun in my hand about the assassination. No, you know, active treason. But it's an interesting read if you if you get a chance to pick it up used somewhere or whatever. I would I would not object to it, you know,
I wouldn't. I wouldn't be like highly recommending it like I do your your book on Oswald. But but it is something that I would say, you know what, if you want to take the time to learn about that, please do right.
Active Treason is a decent book. Mark North is the.
Author so well.
I think one of the things that brings out it's interesting because it really does highlight the influence peddling. I guess you would say, I mean, we haven't seen that with every administration. We didn't really even see it with the Kennedy administration at JFK's level. But with that Democratic administration, there was just just as one little slice here of how much influence peddling Johnson was doing. Of course, that's
what Johnson was famous for. But I think Shane was perhaps surprised that, you know, he was wondering if his grandfather was as well positioned influential, if he had done all the things he claimed he'd done and in truth. By nineteen fifty eight, Billy saul ESTs was so entrenched with Ralph Yarborough that Yarborough was on record saying that he was actually asked to participate in a drive to run SD's for Texas governor, which might surprise a lot
of people. It also documents the extent to which Johnson had essentially co opted the Agriculture Department and made the AGG Department available as a tool, and he was kind of farming out the AGG Department and Freeman. You know that there were people going along with this, bending.
The rules a little bit.
Henry Marshall, who got killed in the scandal, had approved some one hundred and thirty eight leases for SDS and there were lots of challenges to the leases at leases.
Actually Yarborough had to go to Washington, d c.
To testify for certain panels on ST's account, and so did Johnson. Johnson row that there were lots of controversies about these leases behind the scenes, and Marshall was whether he thought he was doing the right thing where there was walking the fence whatever. Marshall was quite aware that there were challenges and issues with a lot of these leases.
But up until i mean through the Kennedy inauguration, you know, there's just a solid history of SD's having a great deal of influence on Johnson within the Kennedy administration, and you know the segments related to agriculture. Freeman supported SD's and some of these leases. So you can suddenly see when it hit the fan a couple of years later. This was we think of the Bobby Baker scandal as
the scandal for Johnshnson. It was the second scandal. This scandal had the potential of being as hot and as damaging for Johnson as the Baker scandal would later. The interesting thing is that it got put to bed almost entirely by the death of Marshall. Once Marshall got killed, everything was fine. There were other murders, other deaths. None of those got exposed for years and years until a
grand jury reinvestigated Marshall's death in the eighties. So everybody got away Scott free killing, killing Marshall and some of the other deaths really did take it off the plate.
Now here's an interesting thing, because you said, did celesties do all the things?
He claimed?
I would temper that a little bit, and this is unusual.
This is me tempering you. But the truth is all. Now, I wouldn't say all.
All is not something that I would say you could reliably say that all the things he said he did is a good idea.
Yeah, but I'm sorry I was talking politically. I mean, he bought he flew people to d C. Yeah, but even then this private plane, he hosted thousand plate dinners.
But even there, Kennedy events, you know, those are the sorts of things he did.
Right, But even there, I would still temper his claims against reality a little bit, because it seems as though they would evolve a bit. And I don't know if that's because he felt more comfortable because certain people had finally, you know, died, or you know, he didn't care because he's now old, or he's just you know, strategically, I don't know. I'm just saying that at any given moment, I wouldn't say that all of what he said is
ever to be taken just at face value. I would say that a lot of the things, even the more extraordinary claims, are a little more true than less true. Like in other words, a lot of people just go, well, look he's con man, that's it. Don't even listen to him. I would never say that. I would say that a lot of his claims, even the more extraordinary, are to be taken seriously, a lot of them, the majority of them, even the ones that do seem to be like, well, how could you be involved in this?
Yeah? He was.
And that's part of the reality here, and that's why it's so hard to really sort out. I think, you know, because it wasn't known that, I mean, like a powerbroker like this, you know that exactly this guy is for years and years, and he would continue to influence things from administration to administration. But Billy Saul is a Johnson exclusive pretty much, right.
Yeah, yeah, until well, let's put it this way, looking at my notes here in nineteen sixty one, and this is to show how much.
Influence he had.
Marshall gets killed, the Egg Department goes ahead with his investigation, okay, And in October of nineteen sixty one, this is months after Marshall is killed, they write one hundred and forty page internal report indicating there was no there's sds you know, did not do he didn't buy influence. His remark that he could get this thrown out by influencing people in the administration.
Could not be supported.
And in November nineteen sixty one, all of these people are attending Sam Rayburn's funeral, including Kennedy, Truman, Eisenhower, Johnson, and people like Cliff Carter, mac Wallace and Stes. You know, at that point in time after the Marshall killing, everybody is still free and clear. And that's what I was trying to really get across, is that he had contacts
sufficient enough so that that did go away. Now, this has nothing to do with JFK and the tape about JFK, and you know that's a completely different story.
No, but they mentioned Marshall on the tape, so it is significant to the tape that we listened to, you know, where it was like, oh, you know, and Henry Marshall got killed, you know, And I like the way it's so casual there where it's just like, you know, somebody just got killed, you know.
And that's an odd.
Phrase if you think about it. It's not like, well this person was murdered.
It's just well, you know, they just got killed one way or another.
I mean, you know, you could get killed driving around on a motorcycle and making a mistake, making a turn, you know what I mean, you could get killed that way. It almost seemed like that, right, I mean, it was weird. The attitude but then again, it was part of doing business apparently, you know, in this universe, so to.
Speak, right in Johnson's universe, without a doubt. Yeah, but it even surprised me to think that they treated it casually enough. I mean, certainly you know everyone who And by the way, at this point in time, it's important for the timeline, the public was not aware of the scandal. The public wouldn't be aware of the scandal until later.
That that's so at that point.
In time, up until the you know, uh, for example, at the Kennedy administration's inaugural dinner, as Jesus buying one hundred seat tables at Johnson's section of the inauguration, and so this is all anything that happened if he, you know, assuming that he did tell Mac Johnson told Mac to kill Marshall, and that happened everything else, there's there's no public discord or no public impact that would come later.
But up to that point in time, it's not really dangerous for these guys to be in each other's company. There's no reason they you know, can't talk with each other.
Which I think it's important if we try to parse out the tape and say, is it possible that the tape is like does two different things, that the tape combines the Marshall killing and the SDS scandal related killings, and JFK was added on to it separately, because they are very much two different scandals and two different you know, sets of activities over like a.
Three year period. You know, it didn't happen all at once.
That there's no doubt in my mind that there was not a meeting where they sat down and initially discussed killing JFK along with Marshall. That doesn't make any sense from the timeline, right.
Well, that's the interesting thing.
I mean, look, it's all recorded far after according to the date that we understand here, right, So you know why mix these things together. They don't seem to really go together, except that some people would say, well, you know that's how he was able to control his thatituation is getting rid of JFK.
Man.
Nobody would investigate him, Bobby Kennedy wouldn't be going after him, The Justice Department wouldn't be going after anybody.
Yeah, but the thing is, in nineteen sixty three he hit it all gone away, there was you know, I think that's what I'm trying to get through the timeline in nineteen sixty three, the danger to Lyndon Johnson was not the st scandal.
It was the Baker scandal.
Right when you get to nineteen seventy one, when this tape was made, there's an entirely other danger present. And I think Shane was right in that regard. We know that Johnson was descending into paranoia. You can go to his biographer, the young woman who's at the ranch with him. He's letting his hair go long. He's worried that people are trying to steal the ranch from him. He is
descending into you know, he's becoming deconstructed. He left the present tency over the war and and you know, Macwallace dies, and then the tape is made.
And I think there's a.
Strong argument that can be made of whether right, wrong or indifferent. There certainly would be a motivate motivation for SD's and Carter to make a tape and let, you know, make copies and make Johnson aware of the fact that you know, whatever he might or might not have done to Macwallace, the darnwell better not do it to them.
Well, there's that, and then there's the other issue where they could be dishing off things onto mac Wallace that don't belong on macwallis right.
I would say that other than I think there's no time to deal with here. The case that Clint People's Texas Ranger Peoples made against Wallace and took to the grand jury.
Yeah, I mean.
It is rock solid against Wallace. I you might argue some of the other deaths that are mentioned in conjunction with it, the suicides, whatever, but there's a a very strong case that could be made that Wallace was indeed involved with the Marshall killing. That just there's a lot of secondary evidence there, and and quite frankly, while mac Wallace would be a really poor choice to just say, go kill the president, like that's sort of insane. Were
your we're your skills and connections for that? Mac Wallace as a as someone who's killed Kinser, you know, who was in a relationship with Johnson's sister. Uh, that's a different type of crime that at least makes some sense. Well, you know that's kind of could you could depend on him for that, depending on him for killing the president?
I still have a problem with.
It's my mob argument all over again, which is, you know these guys would use pistols at close range to blow somebody's head off and put ten fifteen bullets in somebody. But trying to get him to shoot from a sniper's nest is a bad idea. Uh, you know, it's just that simple, right, Like mac Wallace, If you're sending him to go shoot somebody with a pistol or a rifle or anything at close range, just to gun somebody down face to face, then it makes sense.
But yeah, to send Yeah.
And in Marshall's case, in both cases, you're exactly that was that kind of crime. It was a close range it was you know, and in in Marshall's case, Marshall was strangle first, he was hitting the head, then.
He was shot with it. This is like a clumsy close up killing.
Nobody at the time could understand how how local law enforcement could buy the guy shooting himself multiple times in the stomach with a manual rifle.
You know, you've got to.
You've got to reach shoot yourself, retrigger a rechamber ashell, shoot yourself again.
Yes, she do the same thing over and over.
That's just insane, which is you know, no, obviously there was something fixed in that you know, it's just nobody could believe it well.
And the remarkable thing to me when actually getting to look at some of the evidence was, how is it that you don't see that his head? I mean, what did he tried to kill himself first by bashing his own head up against the truck? I mean that's pretty wild because it's not like it's blood spatter from the gunshot. You know, it's clearly I mean, I don't see how anybody could have seen it as anything other than this guy's head was bashed up against the truck. In my mind,
you know what I'm saying. Maybe you saw it differently, but I didn't know.
That's and the strange thing and when the case was, when people took this and the grand jury reconsidered it, there was no doubt. So you know, it's like whoever looked at it first clearly was avoiding it. But when you looked at the actual evidence, you know, it was conclusive.
There's just no doubt that it was not suicide.
And by the way, it's important to remember that all of what we're talking about, yes from Billy saul SD's did not come out until that jet at grand jury case. That was when SDS surfaced all his remarks about having knowledge about having taps, and that was you know, that's not until nineteen eighty four, so it's important to keep that in mind. But yeah, when that was yeah, you're right, Jack, No, but there was not a clearly anybody that was looking at it where the situation was not fixed is.
Going to see this is not suicide.
Yeah, right, I mean, you know, and it's easy to bring up to think about the bull tax your rifle, but I mean, seriously, it's not just that, even if you could believe that by some miraculous coincidence, this guy really was that determined in recycling a rifle to keep shooting himself in the chest. Even if you could buy
that somehow, there's more to it. Even that's just so ridiculous that obviously, And the one good thing he points out is that it did change the ruling with the insurance company for the family, you know, which.
Was a good thing, right. I mean, you know, you got.
To look at the positive and the negative results of what happened here, and then it's very reasonable to understand that if he couldn't come up with, look, give me immunity. Otherwise I'm not going any further, and he walked away. That's the kind of thing I hear about all the time, you know, in these cases where you know, they try to cut a deal and you can't clear somebody, they're
not going to give you the testimony you want. And that happens all the time in courtrooms all over the country, you know, even in minor cases.
Good, yeah, absolutely.
So, all right, anyway, continuing on with the timeline though, I think it's interesting, and again I think it's great to go over this and try and keep it in context. So you know, I'm sorry I keep interrupting, but it's just some of the stuff is so obvious, you know that you gotta you gotta, you gotta make the points. Anyways, So what else would you say about this continuing forward?
Well, I think again, this is where we can start parsing out at this point in time, we can parsing out the different statements that were made because during these grand jury hearings on the murder, Okay, that was when SDEs took the opportunity to bring him for self forth as a witness and talk about what he had in his possession. He had documents, he had many, many takes.
Actually the letter.
From his attorney to the grand jury talks about how I'm going to point to quote this. A short time after mister Estes was released from prison in nineteen seventy one, he met with Cliff Carter and they reminisced about matters Carter. Originally Carter himself had originally compiled a list of seventeen murders which have been committed, some of which mister Estes was familiar. A living witness was present and would be willing to testify about the conversation, and he names him
as Kyle Brown. And then in this again letter to the Glenn jury, mister Estes states that Cliff Carter told them that mack Wallace had fired a shot from the Grassy Knoll in Dallas, which at JFK from the front. Mister Estes clears that Cliff Carter told him that on the day Kennedy was to be murdered, Fidelcaster was also supposed to be assassinated.
Now how he would know that, I don't know.
But then he goes on with some other remarks, but I thought it interesting at that point in nineteen eighty four, he is saying that Cliff Carter fired from the Grassy Knoll, which is the same thing that he told William Ramond.
You meant to say mack Wallace. You meant to say mac Wallace by the way you said Cli Carter, but you meant to.
Say he.
Tell William Ramond in their interview, you know, twenty years or so later that it was basically the story was that mac Wallace had fired from the grassy Knoll, Lee Harvey Oswell had fired from the school book depository, Lee Harvey Oswell had been hired as a contract shooter by Jack Ruby. I mean, that was the basic story, and that is what he told Ramone, and that's what ended
up in Ramone's book. Now, I will say that I had talked to SD's before that, and that was that's a bit different than what esd's was suggesting at that point in time. But I don't you know, Ramond published something so we can see what he was told, and that was in a personal interview. So you've got two statements that come out, one in an aficial shoal legal letter to the grand jury about Macwallace being a shooter from the front, Oswell's shooting from the rear, and then
that's repeated again in two thousand and two. I think it is that is not at all the story that ultimately showed up in his own book, which ST's own
book had a lot more details. It implied that he had for knowledge, It had implied that he had a lot of knowledge of a much more complex plot that involved Texas oil men, so on and so forth, that all came around later, which I think gets back to some of the point that you were talking about earlier, and that you know, I certainly wouldn't want to say that.
You know, ST's story did evolve, and it did grow, and it certainly doesn't fit with the whole scenario of Macwallace's Prince being present in the Texas school book depository. That has kind of evolved over time, you know, with the whole fingerprint Oh yes, we can prove Johnson did it because Mike Wallace's prints were in the six floor window where the shooter was.
See.
Now, once again I point out something here that you know is unique to me usually, but if you look at what was available in the media in nineteen eighty four, generally publicly accessible, what was being discussed, and what changed in between those twenty almost twenty years later when the
two thousand and two version comes out. Right of the story, there's a lot that happened here, including you know, the man who killed Kennedy, right the whole Johnson did it scenario, and a lot more awareness of the Texas oil men and all that stuff that was vaguely mentioned in the
eighties but wasn't out there in great detail. So one could say that one way or another, for one purpose or another, even that Celesties could have borrowed some of what was publicly available and said, you know what, since the public knows about this and I have intimate knowledge of some of those characters, I'm going to adapt some of this into my story.
To sell it better.
You know, Because that was the point with the difference between the French journalist and him, is or the French author I should say in him is that you know what, he expected to make a lot of money off of that book and he didn't, right it was only published in France.
He said, he said that, you know that was that was quite clear.
He expected that that the French book was he expected to receive a really like a couple hundred thousand dollars out of that and that certainly did not happen, right.
So maybe, in an effort to have a better selling book, even let's just go with that as an explanation, he could have added in things that were obviously public knowledge. Now,
you know, it looks different when you write. And even if you think back to nineteen seventy one, the idea that Okay mack Wallace is shooting from the Grassy Knoll during that story, right during that time period, say in the Celesties timeline, that makes sense because that's just after people are just becoming aware of there might be a shooter on the knoll. They read rushed to judgment, they've heard from Mark Lane. He's tore it all over the place.
Garrison Trials happened, Grassy Ol, Grassy Noole. Another shooter there is big enough that in seventy one it makes sense in that story. Now, trying to put him.
On the Grassy Noll in eighty four, it's almost a joke in the media. So maybe, yeah, you see what I mean.
Yeah, the real news in seventy one, everybody weren't Oh, there were two shooters, right, and there was a shot from the front. Now that's the real news. So if you can come up with the name for the shooter on the grassies. No, you've got a real story. You're absolutely true with that. That's two different stories. But later on it's like, Okay, wait a minute, you know now we don't think Oswald was a shooter.
It's not just two shooters.
It's kind of like, Okay, we need a more complex story than this, right, that's not enough to get any attention anymore.
And also, people by then are definitely clearly saying how does Jack Ruby fit into this? A whole lot more, even though they were asking that question right away when he shot Oswald. But the thing is, that's an involved question in nineteen eighty four. It's not the same as it was in seventy one. That's my point about. You know, you can see the media's influence on some things people right when they claim to be a first hand witness. And it's not always for nefarious reasons, but sometimes it is,
and sometimes it helps people completely invent things too. But I'm not saying Celestis is inventing everything. All I'm saying is it provides part of a spin and part of a reason why you see a spin and a change, and it's consistent through a lot of people's again, witness I'm holding up quotes. Witness accounts are often influenced by what is out there and publicly accessible, So you got to keep track of that when you're taking a look at when the story changes.
I think so yeah.
And in nineteen eighty four, I mean quite frankly, and you know, there was a point in time during the Marshall grand Jury and everything where murders in Texas were a national story, right, you know, Johnson and a lot of murders in Texas that all by itself, that's a national story. And I will say it's perfectly fair. The Justice Department contacted Billy Solilests about this.
I mean, his.
Information to the grand jury and his offering of information, including the fact that he wanted immunity and compensation for his materials, was a national news story.
Justice became involved.
Justice met with Billy Saul and was taking it seriously if he would hand over the evidence he claimed to have, and at the last minute he walked out on that meeting and nothing happened.
But at that point in time, lots of murders in West Texas related to Lyndon Johnson and Billyoffs was a story in itself later on, twenty years later, Now the story is JFK.
Right, because now we've been through this already. We've been through the oil men, We've been through the time when you know, Madeline Brown has been on Heraldo. Let's be honest, right, We've been through all this stuff already. So the public is not shocked anymore by Oh, well, Johnson was involved in all kinds of stuff, you know what I mean, you know, I mean except Caro in his books. I
guess it would shock him. But other than that, you know, like we knew, okay, we knew, and we were still after what happened to JFK obviously so and he had to know that that was, you know, a big part of what was going to sell there. Anyway, the idea that there's more tapes, that's the other thing too. And I found it interesting the way Shane answered the question of like, you know, why now. I didn't interfere with his answer. I let him answer it exactly as he
wanted to, you know. But anyway, it's an interesting point, and it's still a story and it's still something to be resolved. But anyway, please continue, you know, I don't want to interrupt you anymore.
Here, but I think what's interesting is what we I think it's fascinating that things that were mysterious to me back at that time and dubious and debated, you know, like, did Estes have any tapes? Did that really happen? You know, how much did he tape? Did he get away with it? Did anybody make the remark that he claimed to make? Well, I think it's pretty safe now I had I had talked to people it said, oh yeah, I talked to.
Somebody who heard it.
You know.
Yes, I think the question of whether or not tapes were made in even a lot of tapes. I mean, if if Shane really has a lot of tapes that talk about Johnson's crimes in Texas and Carter's you know, enabling them and that sort of thing, it's going to really be hard. You know, the next book on Lyndon Bangs Johnson is not going to be as pretty as
Carol's books, right, you know. It's so there's a lot of history here to be had, and it certainly does confirm some of the things that were you know, is a question mark, you know, did Cliff Carter really say that are there lots of tapes?
What else could have Lyndon Johnson?
And is there is there's some Texas crime history that we don't know, And yeah, it might be in those takes.
Right, And there could be an incredible amount of stuff there because look, in fairness to Shane Stevens, all right, and in Team Stevens and his website and his search for truth and everything. In fairness to him, he doesn't know all the details.
He could be hearing. He could be.
Hearing names and things that would jump out and me, you know, on other tapes that don't even really ring a bell with him, you know, or to other experts on this, people who are really deep into the Texas thing. I mean, in fairness, I mean you know more than I do. But again, there are people I would say, you know, like if you were to say, Okay, who's the best expert on this?
I don't think you would select yourself first?
Right, No, I would wouldn't write.
And there are places in Texas, you know, and talking to Shane I should recommend him. You know, Texas Monthly. There are there Texas universities, Texas historians, Texas magazines that should be fascinated by what's in those other tapes, and they all be in a position to understand the names and places and what it really means. And as you say, I wouldn't be able to, but just just from what I've seen in my own notes, that would seem explosive.
Knowing that those tapes exist, it's no longer a matter of are they exploded, it's how explosive are they? Because given his claims, if he did he'd tape the bulk of his calls related to Johnson and Carter and influence peddling in Texas for like four years, you can imagine what sort of stories that could generate.
Well, and you say, the other monthly magazine should be talking to Shane exactly.
And you know, here's the other scary thing is that somewhere in those tapes you could almost think, you know, because Johnson didn't die for a while, there could be a tape of Johnson saying God knows what to Billy Celesti's and he doesn't know he's being taped.
You know what I and did say to the grand jury, he had tapes of his talks with Johnson, and it's clear and looking at his history he did meet with Johnson and they're actually in the book that we're talking about earlier, their quotes about specific telephone calls and so yeah, I there is no doubt that he had conversations with Johnson. And yeah, there, like I say, there there may well be another book in that series of.
Johnson's career novels to come.
Yeah, and it's and it's pretty wild.
Who knows.
And I'm just speculating here, but again, if the guy took the time to tape it, there could be all kinds of things on there, and like I said, they could mention stuff that really seems benign, you know, where they say, oh, you know, well there was Charlie in this group. Let's just say, well, you and I might know who Charlie is, but somebody else really knows who's connected to Charlie and that group, you know what I mean.
Where it's like, wait a minute, I happen to know that he was a guy who was on you know, the Dixie Mafia phone tree, you know what I mean.
And we don't know that necessarily.
I'm just saying, uh, there's all kinds of possibilities here,
and I'll tell you why. I leave it wide open with this speculation because every time I've visited with somebody from Texas, you ever notice that everybody's related to somebody And it's like you talk to Gail Knicks jack like, seriously, Gail Nick Jackson is one of the most fun people to talk to like this, but when you talk to her, right, it's like she runs into somebody who's related to somebody else, Like you don't you know, you figure, well, they just
happened to go to Jack Ruby's club one time, but that's not all they're connected to. They actually knew at the bartender who was actually related to three of the cops.
Who you know what I mean.
Like in Texas, it seems like everybody's somebody's cousin, and they got plenty of family stories, and they got plenty of things where little bits of evidence, family secrets went on. All kinds of things go on, and it's wild. So you know, I don't claim to know what that ecosystem is. I'm not in it, neither of you, even though we've touched it. We've talked to some of those people, right, but it doesn't mean that we were intimately involved with it.
There's a whole world of stuff there that again, like you said, could reveal Texas history, could reveal LBJ history. You know, a very uh uh, you know, rejected wing of the Johnson Library, the Johnson Presidential Library, a whole set of recordings that they claim they don't have, you know, that somebody disposed of years ago. Maybe, And Billy Saul has the other end of that conversation, you know what I mean, there's a whole possibility.
Here, and even for national history, as much as I say it, it's sort of like there seemed to be pretty good evidence of the amount of contributions that SD's was actually making, not just to Johnson, but to the d n C. Right, you know, there's a lot of political history there also is. If this money was coming out of Texas from SD's that essentially jump started the DNC, which later jump started the RNs. You know, is our whole national political campaigns system of funding?
Packs? Actually? Did it?
Did it originate out of these scandals in Texas?
Didn't make a great history book?
Did it?
Really?
You know?
Is your legitimate political world really based on organized crime?
You know, because that's what this is. Okay, So the last.
Thing I want to ask you, and then and then you know, wrap this up any which way you want after or you know or don't.
If you want to continue.
To elaborate, that's fine, But I think we're we're probably well through it. But the thing is, even if this doesn't significantly change what we know about the Kennedy assassination, if this was a strategic discussion meant to be held over somebody else's head, if this was recorded for other purposes, right to protect them from something that they knew they were vulnerable to, If this was god knows what this could have been, you know, for all sorts of different reasons.
We don't necessarily know, because we can't cross examine the two most prominent voices on the tape, which, by the way, I hear somebody in the background there.
I don't know if you do, but you do.
Absolutely, Yeah, yeah, there are other people, just as he claimed, apparently in Chain says these are two of his relatives, you know, of ST's relatives.
So yeah, there are other people listening to.
This, Oh absolutely, I mean, and I hear them on the tape again, you know, And I don't know if anybody else noticed it, but I know that you would because you actually pay attention to audio but one run through and I already knew. And even with all the noise, the clip that was on the internet and the music under it and all that other stuff, I could hear people in the background. I'm going, oh, you know, this is not one witness talking to one other witness. This
is more than that. And he claimed that, by the way, about his tapes, he said there were other people that had heard this go on, and the way he made it sound is it wasn't I played a tape for somebody later although he did say that too, didn't he where he had played tapes.
From the Yes, yeah he did.
But anyway, even if.
This doesn't dramatically or significantly change anything regarding the solutions so to speak, for lack of a better word, on the JFK assassination, there are significant additions to a lot of history that can be made here. But do you think it could significantly change what we know about the
solution on the Kennedy assassination in general? Other tapes, this tape, whatever, or you know, or really where I'm kind of starting to come down on it is that we got a hell of a lot of other history to get into here, and there's a lot of details that could be gleaned from people that are in the know regarding that ecosystem, again, regarding the inside story from the insiders and people that would be fully familiar with how that worked and everything
that would have went on, and all the players could learn a great deal from access to these tapes. And like you said, you know Texas Monthly ought to be talking to Shane, But what are your thoughts on that of regarding the Kennedy assassination. And I mean, obviously I think you agree with me that there's a lot of other history that can be unlocked here, But what do you think about the Kennedy sem.
Yeah, I think first of all, I hopefully Change will understand that these tapes are key to a lot of history, both Texas history and national history. Yes, that of that period that's really significant. Then he may not realize there are probably books to be written from this. I'm not gonna write one, but there are books and stories to be written from this if those other tapes exist about American politics, because this is a seminal period for American politics. Johnson,
it's not just Johnson was there before Kennedy. Johnson was there with Kennedy and Johnson was there after Kennedy. If Johnson is this corrupt, if he was corrupt enough to participate.
In the st scandals, if he was.
Corrupt enough to participate in the Baker scandals, what can we say about the rest of his You know, what about the Gulf of Tonkin?
Did he lie about that? It looks like he did.
Yeah, what about you know, there's there's a real historical revisit to Lyndon Johnson if he's really as corrupt, fundamentally corrupt as these tapes could set him up to be. So that's a that's a big story, your respective.
You know, something you just brought up here is something I was thinking during that interview several times, and I did not bring it up because I didn't want to confuse and I realized that Shane is not like an expert historian on this, you know what I mean. But I was thinking to myself, I wonder, if we take a look back in nineteen sixty four and excuse me,
what's occurring during the Gulf of Tonkin incident? You know, is it possible we have a wag the dog situation that we don't know about, uh, you know, regarding the escalation into Vietnam.
Is it not just simply well to move?
You know, the whole concept military industrial complex basically pushes Johnson into it. They want a war, he wants a war. Is it possible we have a Hey, look, something else could blow up if I don't turn attention to this kind of situation. Yeah, I mean I was thinking that during that interview, and I'm saying to myself, you know, you could have some answers on one of these tapes about sixty four and you don't know it, you know what I mean?
Yeah? Yeah, Let's take something as simple as let's.
Say that jayegg Or Hoover, who's a smart guy but also a guy who goes along to get along, knows that there are things that Johnson is covering up, knows that Johnson had a reason to cover up the Kennedy assassination, knows that john that Johnson has other dirty laundry. What are the implications for American politics? You know what, what if people suspected what we now have good reason to suspect, and that Johnson is willing to cover up murders of
any scale, right, you know what? What does that say about the stories that we have of him, uh, you know, being essentially told, yeah, Kennedy's going to be out of the way.
Just make sure you're you'll be good.
You know, the the Baker's scandal is not going to kill you and just you know, playball with us. You know, there are some real huge historical implications here, uh, irrespective, you know, if just this part of Johnson being part of a campaign that eliminates Henry Wallace and Johnson knows about it, Yeah, there's just some huge historical implications here.
So I think that's absolutely one thing that that's maybe I won't say it's bigger than the Kennedy assassination, but it's on a par as far as national history is concerned. If you have a president in office that has this kind of background and people know about it, how how does that you know, does he any event?
So that's one thing.
But I think the other thing that comes along with this is that just and it brings real doubt if if Johnson was willing to involve himself in covering up the the kins Er murder, if Johnson really was involved himself in covering up the you know, murder of an ag agent, Marshall, would not Johnson argument, you know, be made that, Yeah, he's willing to sell out and cover up the Kennedy assass nation. Sure, anything that benefits him, he's willing to. Maybe he doesn't, you know, initiate things,
but he's willing to go along. That's that's pretty damaging to his history too.
So yeah, there are a lot of historical implications here that.
That that may not that may be in those other tapes, not just the Kennedy thing. You know, how how complicit and how how how easy is it to get Johnson to go along?
You know, is he willing to?
Yeah?
I mean services right, I'll give you a quick, quick hypothetical too, just to throw it in here, and and you know, to get people thinking Brown and Root is involved in you know, all kinds of construction stuff related to Vietnam.
We know this, right, So here's the deal.
What if Brown you know, the Texas part of that thing which later on you know it's folded into Haliburton. Right, But anyway, what about if they just have that leverage? You know, is that not a part of the story here?
Maybe?
Right?
Why is it that Brown and Root ends up with that contract?
Well, maybe it's not us that it was a Texas based company and you know George Brown, well maybe they.
Had a little leverage. How about that?
You know, that would change if anybody that knows Johnson will play is a player, you know, maybe not doer, but a player. Yeah, that that makes him accessible. I there's there's a story here that goes along with the Kennedy assassination. I suspect and it may be in the other tapes that that exists that that may not seem all that meaningful at the moment, But what in the world they could tell us about Texas politics and national politics is another story in itself.
Exactly exactly.
So would that be your final word on this, you think? I mean, that's a pretty good way to close down.
There may be a more of a story here than simply whether or not the story that that.
There.
You know, the shooter from the Knowle and Lee Harvey oswell, we're both somehow contracted by Johnson's you know, political associate is a story. Yes, but yeah, that's may not be the only thing to discuss here, and eed of it if that's not true, there's a lot to uncover her about American history, right, There's.
A whole lot of details left to be revealed here, and boy they're not pretty, but you know, reality often is not. Anyway, if you go over to larrydsh Handcock dot com and you follow Larry's blog, I think this is a good way to close out and really put a you know, an addendum to that discussion that we had, which I thought was a fair one.
And I was really happy to have Shane on.
And I'd love to have Shane on again, especially if he wants to, you know, reveal some more tape. But I would probably just have mon to discuss things again, even you know, not necessarily right away, but as he goes through and learns a little more and gets out a few more things. I love to hear what he's learned, you know, and what he sees in what he has even uh, And it's been a great trip with you. I know you were a little reluctant to get into.
This at first, because you were like, oh, god, you know I've.
Been here before. Wait a minute, did I not do this before?
Hold on, it's what can I possibly did I throw all that stuff away or not?
Turns out I didn't.
Although we don't enjoy The Godfather Part three so much, everybody loves that line.
You know.
I try to get out, they pulled me back in.
And this keeps happening to Larry. And I'm sorry, Larry.
But that's pretty accurate actually in this case.
Yeah.
And the sad thing is, look, I I almost feel guilty, like saying to you, Look, somebody's got to do this, Larry, And then somebody else told you basically the same thing, and you kind of went cramp.
I have to do this because I.
Did.
I keep it.
It's called out in the garage where the file cabinets are.
But see, that's the amazing thing is that you don't even realize its necessarily that leads you chase down stuff that you chase down just to be able to write something or just to you know, close out you know, some issue or whatever in the past. Sometimes this stuff comes back up because a new piece of evidence emerges and nobody knows how to deal with it.
You know, everybody was running around.
With this, Oh this is sensational look at this, and I'm like, oh no, because we have to put this in context, you know.
And sorry, but that's always the word I think of with you.
So Larry Dashancock dot com check out his blog. Of course I recommend every one of his books, and the most recent one is The Oswald Puzzle. Anything you want to say in closing Larry at all.
No, I think that pretty well covers it.
I think I will like this is this is revisiting my pastor revisiting a story. I hope to to be able to help, you know, help him any further with this if he needs some assistance. So we are you know, I am providing him some of my notes and this sort of thing that we just talked about, and he can take it forward. But yeah, I sort of hope to go back to whatever it was I was working on before we got into this, were my notes?
What was I doing?
That's the thing, you know.
And Larry has worked on UFO's National security state stuff, historical information comparisons. I mean, you know, you take a look at books like Surprise Tax, Shadow Warfare. He's co authored with some very interesting people, not just David Boylen on the recent book, but of course Stu Wexler, who is a guy I really wish I had more conversations with, and Miss Stu Wexler just quick shout out to you, and you know a lot of other people, and plus
you know it's good. I guess you'll you'll still be volunteering to run say the Facebook group for lancer to this coming year. Is that what you're going to do or oh.
Yeah, I still intend to do that. And of course, right at the moment, we are, we're really several of us are really actively engaged in trying to get across to the current administrations you know, document release commitment, you know, to the DNI, to the Congress people. You know, you guys want to release documents, you really should get some advice on where to look and what to get out.
You know, don't don't start from scratch. So that's still a major major commitment at the moment, is to try to get some documents released if they're really serious about that. And supposedly the White House has had the plan for the JFK release for about a week now, I think at least, and we've heard nothing about it.
Well, and that's the thing, look, just to get something straight. The reason why I'm not commenting on it very much is because I know that there are people that are responsible actively reaching out through the channels they have to, people like Tulsa Gabbard okay, and other people in the administration to try and get them to understand that. You know, listen, you can talk about you want to release everything, but
you don't know what everything is. So we're willing to offer you for nothing, are you know, advice, let's say, And it's advice because we've been through this for decades already, and we'd like to show you what it is you really need to be getting after, which I think they would be smart to take. But that's still a work
in progress. So I'm not commenting on it because I know, you know, Jeff Morley's obvious out there trying to you know, make statements to people and communicate, but there are others behind the scenes, not seeking any sort of publicity, just seeking to advise the Trump administration. And if they take it seriously and they do something productive with it, credit where credits?
Do you know?
I I So, I don't want to even make a remark about it just yet, except that I maintain my skepticism because the administrations in recent years have not been cooperative, okay, and that's including the first Trump administration. So that's the only comment I have on it, is, you know, hold off on celebrating or stating that we're not going to get anything. There's no definitive answer until we actually see
what they're gonna do. That's that's where I'm at. Okay, I mean, do you think that's responsible.
To keep asking me daily what have you seen?
And they do?
Documents?
No, nothing, because we have none yet. Everybody I talk to, friends, family, everyone seems to think that we suddenly got them last week or something, and I like, no, we didn't.
Honest, you misunderstood.
Oh that's a funny.
Let me share a quick story with you and then we'll get out of here and we'll shut off the recorder here because I've now taken you over the hour and I didn't mean to, but just really fast. A guy who delivers stuff to my house fairly regularly, right he you know, because I don't drive, so therefore you realize I use utilized services where people deliver things to the house. The guy I answered the door took something from him and he's just like, oh, what do you
think of the new JFK documents? You know, because if you know me at all, you know that I'm interested in the subject. Right, So I'm like, there aren't any yet, well yeah, but and I'm like, yeah, I know, you read the headline.
You understand. You read the headline.
It doesn't mean anything happened yet because the EXE, you know, an executive order came out. If you read the executive order, I'm maintaining my skepticism. And I have to explain that to a delivery guy who thinks that something has happened.
See, that's the thing. They don't read. A lot of people don't read. I'm sorry, you're good, Larry.
You know, but it's like a daily occurrence. So what am I doing?
That comes up with any any time I talk to somebody else at disappoint in time that seems to be they all know I do this. So that's a reasonal question, So what have we learned? It's like, well, I've learned.
We're waiting.
Yeah, I don't know if you have delivery guys come to your house. But if you did, and they knew you at all, this would have happened to you already. I'm just saying, oh yeah, yeah, Like if you have a service person that comes you, like, let's just say somebody cuts your grass.
I don't know what goes on at your house, Larry, I never dig into that.
But the thing is, if you have somebody who regularly comes to your house and just kind of knows you, they asked you this question, you know, and especially if they are Trump's, they're like.
Oh, look good something, he did it.
He did it, and it's like, no, it's not done yet. I'm not anti anything, I'm not. I'm just telling you the reality is nothing has happened yet.
We're waiting to see what happens. And you are, too, believe it or.
Not so eagerly waiting with bated breath as it were.
Yeah, I mean it does, it does, just so happen. I know that there are people actively trying to influence you know, please look in all the places you need to look, and and you would agree with me on that, right.
Oh yeah, there are lots of good intentions, lots of you know, we just at this point, I don't know, you know.
You don't know how that's working.
We know the good news is, and that's what I told somebody that just kind of like we know where to look and we know what to look for, and we know what's not going to be handed off unless somebody asks for it, right, So unless they ask our advice, they're probably not going to get what they need to be getting.
Exactly, and that's where I'm going to leave it, you know, and we have to wait and see he stay tuned so to speak right, and again, stay tuned to Larry's blog over there, because you know what the moment it does happen, I'm sure you'll see a blog from Larry. You'll hear them on this show, you'll hear them in other places, talk about what happened, what came out, what didn't,
et cetera. But that's where you're gonna get an informed look continuously because you are going to blog on this and talk about it when something happens.
Yes, oh absolutely yeah.
So Larrydashancock dot com go over there. And like I said, if you don't own all of Larry's books, what are you doing. You've got to have as many books on your shelf as I do, even if.
It's a digital shelf. Go get it.
And the oswall puzzle. I'll have links to all that, And I'm gonna repeat Shane's links in the show notes here just so you can go to his website hear the tape. Maybe I'll put the last podcast, although it'll be easy to find on the feed with Shane and everything. Follow up and study this for yourself and make up your own mind. Larry, thanks again for doing this with me.
It's great to be back. We'll see in a couple of weeks. Exactly, it'll be warmer in a couple of weeks.
Who knows, we might have something else to talk about. Anyway, We'll see how it goes. I am merely o'celly.
All of you are indeed the effect.
Revelation through conversation.
Yo yo, This Doug Campbell, host of the Dallas Action podcast presented by Wall Street Window, and you are listening to the o'chill effect revelation through conversation.
Go ahead, calin, I'm interested in the truth about the JAFA assassination.
Right. Well, what do you want to know Judy.
Baker's wild claim Oswald girlfriends he knew?
Ruby and Barrie answer weapons?
Really?
I imagine I could claim I have four wheels. It doesn't make me a wagon.
But okay, Oswald was on the building and trying to prevent the murder of John Kennedy.
Come on now, has a real effort on the Dafay assassination.
Book into her claim.
Go to Amazon dot com enter Judith Baker in her own words. You'll get the results for a digital copy of a book where Walt Brown utilizes her own words and the known evidence in the case to get at well a different perspective. Let's say you can get Judithbary Baker in her own words from the author himself, signed if you request it by contacting doctor Brown at kias jfk at aol dot com. It's a fun book and it actually dissects the many, many fantastic claims.
Judith Vary Baker in her own words. Thank you Information dot Com Radio Network.
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The War State by Michael Swantson explains the great national transformation that took place and put the Kennedy presidency in the context of the Times and reveals never before published information about the Cuban missile crisis. President Kennedy would not have been assassinated if he had been president two hundred years ago. His assassination took place in the context of the Cold War and the rise of the national security state.
Before World War II, the United States was a continental republic. In the decade that followed, it became an imperial superpower. Generals such as Curtis LeMay not only wanted to invade Cuba, but knew that there were short range missiles on the island arn't with nuclear warheads that they could not destroy because they were on mobile launchers. Their invasion could have led to a Third World War, and they wanted to
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