November fourteen, twenty twenty four, allegedly according to that thing we call a calendar, this the o'celly effect on a Thursday. Yes, indeed, I am live. But of course, if you're not hearing me just after about seven minutes after eight pm Eastern here and what we used to call the United States, you know that place. If you're not hearing me right then and there, then you're hearing the podcast. Welcome to
the show, one way or another. But if you do want to hear us live, you can just catch us through your radio apps at oelly dot com radio and all that good stuff. But of course the podcast is available most places that podcasts are available, although I think I've been knocked down off of YouTube again. But anyway, it is what it is, and welcome to it. I've only gonna keep talking about JFK at least tonight, and god knows what will happen on the open mic night tomorrow,
but I have a feeling it'll come up again. Why, well, you know what, I'm about a week away from when I got to leave. I'll be on the road going to the Lancer conference. Okay, so I'll be there and I'm hoping some of you will join me. Not too many people have used the coupon code. If you go to Assassination Conference dot com. You can attend virtually or in person pay over there, but you can get ten percent off with the code Ocelly ten. All right, so you do that ten percent off. Not a bad deal,
virtual ticket or in person. I will be in person the MC of the event, so to speak. Anyway, one of the people I'm gonna be introducing is on with me tonight. Now. We spoke to Larry Hancock on Tuesday and definitely had fun talking about the past. But you know this guy's name. I've heard quite a bit from other people lately. Although I don't have the ability to track everybody's work on the case. Okay, it's just not possible, but some of my friends kept mentioning this guy, Matt Doalthit. Now.
I don't know too much about him, but if you go in the live chat room at ocelly dot com, you'll see Facebook a couple of Facebook groups that I think are his or he's involved with. Also his YouTube channel and he's written articles for Kennedy's and King. You know that used to be the sitco website. You know Diugenio's hub over there, so he's written articles over there, which means he had to take his information seriously and
offers something of interest. And he's got a YouTube channel and he does the Facebook group things and oh yeah, he's going to be presenting at the Lancer conference. So what can I say? Matt Douthitt d O U T H I t okay. Unusual name, and I have a feeling he's got some unusual things to say, maybe about a topic that I know has been covered quite often. But you know what, I'm not actually sure what his
presentation is about. I know what he's got up on YouTube again, I know a little bit about what's being discussed on Facebook. One of those groups I think has to do with the Tippet shooting, and the other one is, you know, just one of those JFKs in the search for the truth kind of things, one of the many groups that frankly I don't pay as much attention to as I used to because I can't stand Facebook. Matt.
But anyway, how are you doing tonight? First of all, and let let's get to know you, because you haven't been on the show before.
I'm doing good check. Thanks for having me, thanks for having me.
Yeah, well you were suggested several times. I want you to know that.
You pay each one of those people one hundred dollars.
Nice. Well, look, if you're hitting out a hundred dollars bills, I'll grab mine when I see you in Dallas. But anyway, the thing is, yeah, Jeff, it's I'm trying to joke back. It's interesting though, because your name keeps coming up. I have this interesting idea about how you might have come to the case and things like that, based on a couple of things that I've taken a look at that you've done. But why don't you tell us this story? Why the hell do you care about the Kennedy assassination.
I have this feeling that you weren't born at the time it occurred. Neither was I by the way, But you know, I have this feeling that you're younger than I am, And actually I know you're younger than I am, But you know, tell me about this. How did you get into the case? Let's start there.
Well, well, first of all, my aunt and uncle saw the motor case, saw the motorcaid that day.
They didn't see the shooting, but they saw the motor paid.
They saw him about twenty minutes before.
And they went they went out.
With their school and then when they got back they got the words. A nun came running in and said, the President's been shot. So I heard that story when I was a kid, But really I was into the Lincoln assassination first when I was in about twelve years old, and I asked my parents, can we go to Fort's Theater and I was and they were like, yeah, no, but we can take you right down the road to Galey Plaza. And I was like, oh, okay, Oh, let's just see what this is about.
So I went.
So they took me there, and you know, and I watched a documentary or two and I wasn't really into it, but I really got into it on the fiftieth anniversary.
Ah okay, because I was just about to ask you what year it was that you went to see Daley Plaza because different times, depending on when you went, you
might have encountered different things. And after the fiftieth the plaza was sort of rehabilitated a bit after the fish fieth, And you know, I'm old enough that the first time I went to Dallas actually the sixth floor museum had not been established yet, and a lot of the people that I know are much older than myself even and you know, it goes even further back to the point where there was a lot of wood missing from the fence. People kept stealing planks out of the fence, you know,
over the years and stuff like that. So what year did you visit the plaza? When was it that you kind of went, Okay, I guess i'll go see where Kennedy was killed.
Yeah, I think that's like the ninth or tenth, maybe the eleventh fence since nineteen sixty three. But anyway, it was two thousand and eight. When I first went there, I was I was twelve years old. I was born in nineteen ninety six. So yeah, I okay, So yeah, two thousand and eight. And then twenty thirteen I started looking into it more and I just naturally, naturally believed the official sorry for about two years, and then in about a year and a half, and then twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen.
I found Pat spears website.
He's a wonderful, wonderful researcher and a great friend of mine, and he just had his If you go to his website patspear dot com. It's just a plethora, plethora of information, and he's just a of a researcher and he has so much details.
And indeed, indeed, I've had Pat on the show first of all, and I love the video series The Mysterious Death of Number thirty five. That is one of the I mean, I actually I'm so happy that I was able to reacquire a DVD of it not too long ago, because I loved it, and I remember when he was creating that set, and I think Pat is one of the most underrated researchers in the community period. You know,
it's amazing the stuff that Pat put together. So I'm really happy to hear a younger person that knows Pat number one and is aware of his work, because a lot of guys missed things, you know. Anyways, No, Pat, Pat's great, and I was so happy to even have him on the show because, uh, for a while there, it seemed like he wasn't going to be doing any more work, and uh, then he came back. He's still adding to that site, isn't he.
Yeah, he yeah, He's a wonderful researcher. He's just a beast of a researcher. Yeah, so everyone go check out patspeed dot com. And as a matter of fact, he and he and I did a five hour, five hour masterclass on the JFK assassination, which which you guys can check out on my YouTube channel five.
It's five hours.
But if any anyone wants to know just about everything they ever want to know about the case, I would go check that out.
So okay, So now now I'm getting and I didn't know that there was a five hour masterclass with him on there. I did look at a couple of your your pieces up there, but I didn't notice that. I'm gonna have to go back and check out the YouTube channel and I'll give you guys the link to it. Do you have a short name for your YouTube channel?
No, it's just Mt douth But if you go there, that's where you can find the video that he and.
I did so excellent. Oh, by the way, I'm trying to put together somebody to help me with Dally Plaza early on Friday, so I might want to talk to you off air about that real quick before we hang up, because I guess nobody organized a good look. Here's where this person was standing here's this particular historical spot in the plaza, and I was kind of asked if I could do that, but I said, I need somebody to
help me. And by the way, your name came up again, and somebody said, you know, Matt would be the guy to try and help you out, because you know, I'm aware, I have all the information, and certainly I know where people were standing and all those kinds of things. But my slight visual issue more than a slight issue. But that's okay, my visual issue. Not only do I need a ride to the plaza, but I also might need a little bit of help making sure that I'm precise
about some landmarks. So I'm going to ask you about that after we're done talking here, because I'm thinking we need to give people that as opposed to some of the other events that might occur on the noll and around the knoll that morning, I think it would be good to give people historical context, show them where the Warren Commissions, you know, star Witness was standing, show them why that looks a certain way, and why it is that it might be a little unbelievable that you can
tell how tall somebody is if you're looking up six floors, you know, stuff like that. Yeah, I might need somebody to help me out with it a little bit, and I was thinking about recruiting you and maybe Doug Campbell to help me out with it. But I'll bother Doug that day when I get there. Anyways, So that's great stuff. Anyway, let's get back to what it is that brought you in so you get to visit dely Plaza. What grabbed you though? I mean, was it like just the oddity
of the space. Did you find it strange the official story? No, you said you believe the official story for a couple of years. So, and by the way, that's the way I started out with the case. I thought maybe I could knock away all the conspiracy nonsense and maybe I could make a clearer case out of this. Of course, I was dealing with it in the nineteen eighties, being a teenager a little bit older than what you're talking
about at twelve. But that's where I started, is around the twenty fifth anniversary, because you know, I'm a bit older. I was born in seventy two as opposed to being born in the nineties. Okay, so anyway, but what really grabbed you about it.
It sort of just fill into place again. When I was seventeen in twenty thirteen for the for the fiftieth anniversary, that's when it really grabbed me.
For some reason.
In my young mind, I thought, oh, I'm gonna debunk I'm gonna debunk all these crazy theories or anything. But of course I barely I knew any of the details. So yeah, like I get, like I said, a few documentaries here and there, and then it was again I found spears Pat's website and uh and also oh also.
I really in my mind I wanted to.
Make like this master volume set of addressing, you know, address every point in the entire case. And I was like, you know what, this isn't really original. So I literally shoved everything off of my desk, and that's when I started calling up eye witnesses.
Particularly.
The witnesses in the JFK autopsy room. That night, I spoke to everyone who was alive, who was still alive back at that time. So this is about This is twenty sixteen when I placed my first call, and then I did the medical evidence for a few years, and then I decided to switch gears a little bit and focus on the Tipic case, which.
It's a very very underlooked topic.
Yeah, the Typic case is really tough because it's the afterthought that's still after the thought, right, I mean, everybody focuses on the murder of Kennedy, the wounding of Connolly, and the death of Oswald. But you know, the Typic case is sort of just like a tangential thing in a lot of cases, right where people sort of ignore it.
But it's important because this is one of the real you know, this is one of the things that helps build the case allegedly right against Oswald, which you and I both know, you know, kind of falls apart when you look at it. By the way. That means you would have had to have encountered William Law and his incredible uh uh you know, grouping of interviews that he did in the eye of history, because I mean he started a bit earlier than you uh and and he
put together an amazing uh group of eyewitnesses. Whereas it concerns the body, the casket, uh you know, the people at Bethesda, the people at Parkland, et cetera. So you would have had to have encountered, uh, you know, William Law's work as well, right, oh.
Of course I did.
Yeah, he and I spoke to both of the the same witnesses. In fact, he he uh. I was writing a manuscript at that time. It was called the JFK The Missing Witnesses. His book in the Eye of History inspired me to structure that book in a similar way, you know, reaching out to these people. So yeah, I have a great respect for him and that manuscript will it'll come out one day. Keeps getting a little bigger
here and there, but it'll come out one day. But yeah, William was a big influence on the structure of writing back.
Yeah, I mean, but it's kind of hard, you know, for me, Like when you say, okay, I could talk to all the witnesses, I'm thinking to myself, we lost quite a few by the time you started, which is unfortunate. And you have to go back now and look at a whole lot of other people's work in order to even get an idea about what some people saw, you know,
because there's so many of them have now passed away. Again, you're talking twenty thirteen, that's the fiftieth anniversary, so half a century later, you know, people that were adults might no longer be alive. And I always like to mention Larry Snead at this point too, because he's a guy
who collated a whole bunch of interviews of policemen. Again, they're in a book called No More Silence, which is, you know, an excellent, an excellent and underrated volume of interviews that Larry did there and a lot of people have passed, even some of the researchers that were great and some of the people that guaranteed were also inspirations. And you're looking at the medical evidence. I mean, we just lost Sirah Wek this year.
Yeah, that book that Larry's that you just mentioned by Larry Snead, that book, every witness in that book that he interviewed is dead except for Bill Newman.
They're all dead.
And that was only twenty six years ago, right, So it just goes to show, you know, I mean that at one point it'll be I mean, at one point, for the Lincoln assassination, it's like this is it.
The last witness has died right here.
That's all we're gonna get from witness statements right slowly getting there.
With the Keny assassination, there'll be a day.
Where it's like that's it from sixty three to this day.
Right here. That's all we have of eyewitness accounts.
Right, and we'll just be left with what people like yourself, William Law and others have archived. That'll be it, because you won't be able to talk to the dead, at least not according to what I understand, although some people disagree with me. But yeah, anyway, yeah, here we go. So all right, the medical evidence? Why the medical evidence? Though? Did you think it was? As you know, David Lifton definitely coined it well when he said the best evidence.
And I would say that a lot of older people than myself even often cite David Lifton for inspiring their desire to look into the medical evidence, you know, not just because of his theories about body alteration and all that. Although that is intriguing. There's a lot more to it when you take a look at Lifton's work. Anyway, I don't want to keep going into homages about other people. I want to talk about what it is you decided to do. So take us through it a little bit.
How do you wind up, you know, doing a master class with Pat Spearwall people? Eventually? I mean, how is it you get from again going to the plaza because you couldn't go see where where Lincoln was assassinated. To this point of doing a master class, I mean take us there.
It's one of those things that just fell fell into place. We did the master class in April of this year, and and what we did was we reacted to an hour long presentation. Can you believe it when reacting to it? One hour presentation ter stretch into five hours.
But what we.
Reacted to was a presentation that doctor John Latimer did at the famous JFK Chicago conference in nineteen ninety three.
For those that don't know, John Latimer.
Was the chief apologist for the Warren Commission report from nineteen sixty eight until he died in two thousand and seven.
And hit and so what.
The title of our masterclass is called Latimer Revisited JEFFK Medical and Ballistic Evidence. It tells you pretty much everything you need to know about the case, and it's also reacting in real time to the chief apologist and what his evidence are so called evidence is.
So, yeah, Latimer's been an interesting character and you're not the first people to ever react to something that he's done. But that idea that you're reacting to something that was done at the thirtieth anniversary twenty years later, right, is kind of rough, I mean, because you know, for all, Latimer really did convince a lot of people to, you know, I guess, get on board with Gerald Posner's book, and get on board with the idea that again it was the idea I started with, that this is too crazy.
They have too many theories, this is all over the place. It must be. You know, it only happened one way. That's a certainty, right, And a lot of these things and a lot of bad stuff is out there that doesn't show us, you know, anything like resembling the truth or or a look near the truth. So you know, again, what is it? You know, what did why did you pick that one? Or were you inspired by somebody else to choose that one particularly?
Well, like I said, he was the chief apologist for the Warrant Commission for Rome decades and decades and decades, and he was really influential, as you said on Posner and uh which really all the arguments that Latimer did
and ended up in his in Gerald Posner's book. So while you know, X amount of people might have bought Latimer's book, you know, millions and tens of millions bought Posner's book, which was a New York Times bestseller, and he was all over all over the morning shows and everything. So it's like all these all this stuff that Latimer said, it kind of spilled over here. It's kind of been in in these main these talking points that he brought up have been there ever since.
So we kind of wanted.
To uh challenge ourselves to really go point by point into what this guy was saying. And really, when you look at it, it just really falls fall falls apart.
On every single level.
And believe me, every when I say every single level, it really falls apart on every single level. But when but no one who's ever seen it it looks convincing. But you know, check out our video and you'll see what I'm talking about.
Okay, well, let's move on to what it is you're gonna do this year on the sixty first anniversary. Dear lord, I can't believe I'm still talking about this. You know, it was the twenty fifth anniversary that the media blitz that took place at that time was you know, I know, we didn't have the Internet and we didn't have a
lot of things that we have today. But quite honestly, the JFK case was all over the place in nineteen ready for this eighty eight, and it was on the radio, it was on TV, it was in it was mentioned
in popular culture, et cetera, et cetera. The twenty fifth anniversary moved me to become more interested, even though in third grade I found it fascinating when it was sort of explained in short that Oswald died in police custody, and my nine year old hand goes up in the air and says, you mean to tell me this guy died and the cops didn't kill him and it wasn't somebody that was in a cell with him that killed him. Oh something's wrong here. And I knew nothing, you know,
I'm nine years old. I just had a little bit of street knowledge, and that made no sense. If you're gonna die in police custody, either the cops killed you or somebody else who's in the lockup killed you. This makes no sense. So how did this happen? I got shut down and didn't really give it that much thought, you know, but that's third grade. But yeah, yeah, So anyway, but the media blitz that went on at the fiftieth. It definitely had to influence you. I mean I noted
it at the time. I was still recovering from a superstorm Sandy, I think at the time in New Jersey, you know, So I wasn't going to any conferences or getting involved in the madness that was going to happen on the on the fiftieth because there were problems in Dallas and all that stuff. But I found it interesting the new interest and the revival sort of that took place on the fiftieth, and maybe that's part of what
pushed you. So tell us about what it is you're going to present this year a little bit.
Okay, So last year I did a basic presentation on the on the murder of JD. Tippett, just you know, basic facts about the case and you know, here's the overall view, something that a newcomer would be able to grasp this time around this year next week, I'm going to be presenting something similar. But it's called the Minimal Facts Approach to the Tip of Murder. And this is based off of a method by doctor Gary Habermass, who
is who is a theologian. He set out to prove historically the resurrection of Jesus.
Christ, and he DIDs.
He attempted to do so by inventing a method called the minimal facts approach. So what the minimal facts approach says, hey, I can take these small number of facts that everyone agrees upon everyone and say I and then say, based on these four or five facts that everyone agrees upon, I can therefore conclude X. Now he did that for the resurrection of Jesus. That's something totally different. But I wanted to use his method on the tip it murders.
And of course with the Canny assassination, there ain't about there ain't much that we can all agree on. You know, it was a Friday, you know, you know, Candy was killed, you know, Ruby died in Oswald was shot rebly down in prison. But I but we very interestingly, there are a good size number of facts on the tip of murder that everyone, no matter their school of thought.
Agrees upon.
And I was and I was like, wow, So I compiled these lists, this list of ten facts, and I'm going to present them and say, you know, based on this that these facts that everyone agrees upon, I can conclude X, Y, and Z about.
The typic case, Now, this is a bit of a tough haul for you because, quite frankly, over you know, thirty years in and out of the community myself, I have seen several times people try to assemble groups of people for committees, for organizations, and they try to come up with a set of facts, let's agree on this small set of facts and ideas, and you know what, there's always been a problem. I have never seen a more diversified group of disagreements in any other aspect of
my life outside of the JFK research community. So trying to assemble a handful of things that everybody can agree to is very difficult because it seems like there is always a contrary something which has been on earthed, which has been revealed, which has been produced by someone, whether it is well backed by solid evidence or not. There is always an argument about seemingly everything. I mean, even the fact that Kennedy died has been argued against by
some people. I'm not saying it's been credibly done. I'm just saying it's been done. So the idea that you can assemble even a small set of facts that say nearly everyone in that room that you're going to be speaking to can agree with is going to be a bit difficult, I think, so I can't wait to see how this goes. So the methodology makes sense and in most cases, in most controversies, or you know, if you're on the other side of the pond controversies, you know
it makes sense. But this is a tough haul, especially with Tippet, where I think there's a lot of things that are difficult to nail down, you know, and there's a lot of unanswered questions regarding the Tippet situation due to the fact that I think it was so long ignored by the majority of people that really could have undearthed a great deal of interesting knowledge about this. What are your thoughts about that?
Yeah, so I'm pretty much going for a.
You have a point there.
It's never going to be one hundred percent, but you know, I go to a ninety something percent, except.
Between ninety and.
Ninety five percent, because there'll always be five or ten percent of people who are jerks and be like, oh, I don't agree with that. So it's not always one hundred percent, like you said, some people and Kennedy doesn't, but even eighty percent is fair think. But yeah, you're right that the Tippet shooting is overlooked. I mean, you know, it's as the late researcher Larry Harris once said. He said that the shooting of Officer Tippett has been regulated
to footnote status in history. He said that what happened over there on Patton Avenue and Tenth Street may be central to understanding the assassination, but unfortunately it's been overshadowed by the President's murder and Oswald's murder, and.
It may be lost to history.
But so well, I don't think it's entirely lost to history. But even if you achieve the eighty percent agreement in that room, I will be impressed. I'm just going to tell you that now, because again, it is extremely difficult. I mean, you do realize there are people out there that and I'm not kidding here. I know it sounds like a joke, but there are people that think that JFK returned to the White House because he wasn't actually killed,
and he returned as guess what, Jimmy Carter. Okay, I have had people seriously tell me this, Oh, look at the pictures of the two of them, don't they look similar? And I'm like, no, they don't, but I don't know what it is you're driving at. Yes, indeed the assassination was faked, Okay, wasn't really his body? In fact, Tippet becomes involved in this. People think that JD. Tippet's body was actually used for Kennedy's autopsy. There are people out
there touting that theory. Uh, you're aware of this right for that?
I you know, there's a great quote. I believe. I believe it was Oh, oh it was a It was Dick, not Dick Dick.
Who released who was the Silver Arights activist who was with Robert Grodin on.
Her other show, Dick Gregory, Dick Gregory.
Sorry, I wanted to Yeah, having a brain threat there.
Anyway, he.
Made a great point about he said, quote, before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is this person mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives?
If if not, there is no point to argue.
So I kind of stand by that, you know what I mean, before I get into those fringe theories so to speak.
Oh, I totally understand. And you know, look, my question always is what do you have that you could possibly begin to consider entering into evidence in a court of law. You know, don't tell me about Oh well, I looked at a picture and this looks the same. No, no, no, no, Tell me about what it is you think you could enter as evidence. Tell me what expert you would need to use, or what scientific method you could utilize in order to get pieces of data that back up your supposition.
Show me that kind of stuff before he is start telling me about the wildest I mean, look, if you're gonna make extraordinary claims, you're gonna need extraordinary evidence, So you know how much of that do you have? Or you're just gonna show me two pictures and say, doesn't this guy look like this guy?
Yeah?
I mean, you know, because I've been through that enough. I mean, people trying to put George H. W. Bush and Dealey Plaza and all that. And you know, our our friend Russ Baker there is not too thrilled with me. But even though he asked him up to me face to face and shook my hand once finally, since it's a very awkward situation a couple of years ago, but
you know, here we go. Don't show me two pictures and don't show me a blurry picture and try to convince me that the roar shock thing is your evidence not good enough. You're gonna need more anyway, But also the idea that did does someone have the ability to grasp the sophisticated argument you're about to make. Yeah, that's a good way to figure out whether you're gonna waste
your breath or not. So yeah, excellent anyway, So you're gonna come out with these facts, and you're gonna explain this, and you're obviously gonna give us a conclusion here, a summary conclusion, right.
I wouldn't say a conclusion.
I would say based on this, we can probably, we can most likely.
Assume X Y and z ah.
Okay, Yeah, My conclusion is has always been not that Oswald didn't shoot Tip, but it's that the official story hasn't met its burden of proof.
But based on these facts that are can I.
Could that I considered noble history, most likely we can conclude I'll tell y'all, X Y and Z.
And it's difficult because again, I mean, we got mismatched rounds, We've got you know, somebody showing up with a with a casing for a bullet way later after they allegedly turned over all the evidence. You know, you've got conflicting eyewitnesses, You've got you know, a lot of stuff happening here regarding tipp It. Tipp It wasn't even in the place he was supposed to be. You have the witness account that he's receiving a phone call then goes into another direction.
There is a lot of strange stuff happening here, and it's difficult to nail down. I got to be honest with you, it's probably one of the least informed areas of the entire situation for me personally, because it's just so frustrating, to be honest with you, Trying to assemble a fairly good narrative that explains what happened once and for all is difficult, and accepting what the Warrant Commission
did is ridiculous anyway. But you're going beyond that. You're going to try and reassemble this and say, based on a few things that we can all basically agree on, this is what we can conclude. And that's the thing that they're going to get to see if they watch your presentation, either online or in person. Is there anything that I don't know that you could tell us about this present I don't want you to give it away.
I'm trying to think of how to ask this question without asking you to give away something big or good here. But I want to get an idea of how far you're going to go. I mean, are you going to explain the timing and the ballistics and I mean what areas are you going to really deeply focus on? Can you give me that?
What if I told you that you can take just any one of these facts and build a case off of that. You don't even need ten, you don't even need five. You can take in just have your pick any one of these facts, and you can say, based upon just this one fact, we can most likely conclude X, Y, and z H.
It has to be. It has to be. The requirement for it to.
Be a minimal fact is that it's well evidenced, and too that nearly every researcher accepts it.
Well, that would be interesting because again, like I said, uh, and and I've looked at ballistics on this, it's a bit messy and hard to get get you know, get things to be coherent. The way I see it, the eyewitnesses are a mess, right, because you've got from my memory,
I know that there was more than one. No, there's at least one eyewitness who said there was two guys there, which is weird because uh, there's another completely conflicting eyewitness that's that absolutely says there was not two people there. You have the uh you know, like Aquila Clemens, for instance, has a completely different account that nobody took into account at the time.
I get so many you will chuck.
You won't believe how many times a week I have people messaging me asking me what do you think of missus Clemens? And I'm like, so, I made a whole video just on her, so you guys can go. I want to try and put that to an end. So I'm telling you guys right now, just go watch that video. I'm so many questions about missus Clemens.
Watch the video. I think you guys will find what you're looking for.
So, okay, I'll put your link. I'll put the link in the show notes for the Akila Clemens video specifically, so after his YouTube channel in the show notes I should if I remember to do this correctly, I'll put in the specific link to that video on his YouTube channel. So go go ahead. Sorry, good good.
Yeah.
The thing is that you know, I don't a what if I told you that I don't consider testimonies in to be strong evidence in the tipic case. That's how bad the witness accounts are. There's not there's no two accounts that match up. They're all different.
Yeah, well that's what I concluded years ago. And this is why I threw out my hands. I've got nobody, you know, you go even to the guy who gets on the radio and actually makes the call in his account doesn't match the other guy who's picking up the shells off the ground and putting him in a cigarette pack.
Right yeah, let me let me give you a little sample. This is from a list I made. Five witnesses said it wasn't Oswald, seven refused to identify Oswald, four said it was Oswald. Four witnesses are worthless, two are two are useless, and three are suspect. So yes, I don't consider these testimonies to be strong evidence. So ultimately it all boils down to the ballistics, which is a mess.
Which is another mess and why because first of all, the strangest thing to me, which is kind of explainable, because okay, when they ship the handgun and they ship it with enough rounds in it to load it. They don't necessarily care if they put all the same companies rounds in it, and he might have only had what was shipped doing. But here's the thing. Those things don't match. They're from completely different companies.
The only way for it, well, you can fire different different brands of shells in a revolver.
Of course, the problem, the problem.
The problem here is that they don't match each other.
So well, see there's here's your issue, right, and theoretically, now I don't remember the specific number, but you've got let's just say, for argument's sake, three Western Cartridge, right and three Remington okay, And then when you take a look at the rounds, not the casings that let's say that's the casings. You look at the rounds, it's not the same as the casings. Like the casings don't match the rounds numerically, if I remember correctly, isn't that right?
Exactly?
So in order to get so, the only way around this to make it work is that either a.
Fifth shot was fired.
Which or missed and one shell and one bullet has never been found, or these were what we call reloads for you put which he can do if you go to a gun store and you want to save money, and you want to save money, but or if you have a hit to do that, which Oswell did not have. So the only other, really, the only logical possible option to even consider, would be if there was a missed shot.
But if if you look at the trajectory, it would have gone into the house across the street, and the guy in that house ran out and he never said anything about you ain't gonna believe what happened, this bullet crashing in my house. So that's out the window. So I think it's just the only thing necessary to ken Oswald on this case is to take his handgun and to fire four shells and fire four rounds and substitute the shells that were found at the scene.
That's the only thing needed to do that.
So and I think that in doing that they probably messed up, and that accounts for the mismatching.
Of the of the of the of the brands.
So well. The other option that was given to me is that possibly one shell had been fired previously and was just in the revolver already fired, and when he emptied it, you end up with the wrong number, which I found strange because you still have to lose a cartridge, don't you, So one cartridge has to be lost, And then I find that almost credible considering that at one point didn't Fritz turn up with an extra cartridge like in his drawer that wasn't turned over.
What happened was.
Three bullets hit Officer Tippet and then one was stopped by by a button.
On his on his uniform so didn't really go in.
So he was shot four times, right, only they only had one of these bullets. And then a quarter of a year later they were like, oh, here's three more, and someone opens up a drawer and it's like, so those wouldn't have been admitted into evidence. And with the shells, the shells were not entered into evidence into for six days.
And there's other problems with them.
But other than that, we just have too many bullets and too many shells. I made this list years ago, as I, like I said, four bullets.
Hit Tippet, one bullet supposedly missed. Officially, we have another pair of us because another bullet was kicked out of the ambulance and onto the hospital parking lot by one of the ambulance attendants. As for the shells, two shells were found in the bush by Donnie Benavide's. One automatic shell apparently was observed at the scene by Sergeant Jerry Hill. But that night two more shells were found by two witnesses on the side of their house. Said officially one
shell is supposedly missing. Then two other witnesses.
At the car lot said that they saw the gunman discard shells plural on Jefferson Boulevard and the date and uh.
One of the.
David's sister's father in law, he said, oh, I kept one shell as a souvenir. So it's just this, there's just too many bullets and too many shells. I mean, hey, that's the JFK case for you. That's all I can say.
Well, in addition to that, there's some question that it's to somebody marking the shells, right, because there was supposed to be in order to maintain the chain of evidence. There's an issue with an officer marking a shell as well, right.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, Well it actually gets worse than that. All the all the other there were other officers who signed those shells, and their initials are not on are not on there now there is a GD. No, there's a cursive capital G. I'm trying to remember there's a cursive capital G in one of the shells, supposedly for
Captain George Dody. Right, But the problem and so so people are like, ooh, you know, ooh, that's that proves this, And I'm like, well, the problem is that we don't know when he allegedly.
Marked the shell.
And plus there's no mention of him marking it anywhere at any time until seven months after the event, after the controversy with Poe's initials not being there and Officer Barnes having trouble iding the shells that are there. Now, yeah, this is just here saying oh yeah, so who knows Dody may have marked it later, but we just don't know. It's just hearsay, and the witnesses who found those shells can't identify it. So, like I said, this whole thing is just a a miss.
Yeah. Well see, but I kind of wanted to show people that that's exactly what the problem is. It's not it's not simple. So that's why I'm going to be amazed to see how it is you pair this down and show us. Look, here's here's your agreeable facts. Because this is not the only instance in the tippet circumstances where you have confusing, contradictory, missing stuff, additional things that are coming up, and it just doesn't make sense to me.
It's like we're missing something like a whole other shooter, okay, which only what one witness said. There were two, right, there were two shooters. Yeah, but that's only one witness and.
We don't Yeah, and one last thing on the shells. You know, after all this mess that I just explained on the ballistics in nineteen ninety two, in ninety six, the lead detective, Jim Novek, he came in and he was like, actually, you know what, no one signed the shells at all, so with an issue, we can just move on.
And I'm like, whoa wait a minute.
If no one marked the shells, if you're if what you say is true that no one marked the shells, there are initials in there today, then that means so it's like he's he.
He double made it confusing.
So it's like they're trying to get out of there, out of the whole, trying to settle it down. It's like they just keep digging but anyway.
Yeah, and the reason for doing this, by the way, this marking of the shells is to show a chain of custody. If a cop picks up the shell, he marks it. Therefore it was in his hand. Right. So for years people argue about this and you're right. Lavelle comes out about thirty years later and says, yeah, well, actually nobody mark it. Well, then what the hill are the markings that we have on the shells for, because there are some markings on some shows, right.
So you know, so in his attempt to try and just say actually it doesn't really matter, no one marked them, he just made it worse.
Right, So again this never ends.
But in his own words, he old Joseph McBride on tape, quote, well we had a quote little problem with the ballistics.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah, you think that's a little problem.
Yeah, this is a ballistics case.
This is I mean, you can talk about witnesses up but like I said, it's a mess. No two witnesses tell the same story. This is a ballistics case. I'll say that up front. This is a ballistics case.
Okay, Well, I can't wait to see how it is you lay that out, because again I'm rather confused all the way through this. I'm sure listeners are going, what in the hell, how do you sort this out?
That's just a little sample. Yeah, that's just a little sample. Because I thought this thing would end, because you know JFK, it never ends. I'm starting to realize this tip of thing doesn't end either, even though it was as a smaller crime in a small in a smaller street and with much less eye witnesses and much less files than this. It's I've come to the realization it's just like Kennedy. It's it's it's not ending. I keep there's always more stones to be unturned.
I'll tell you one thing I've observed with the JFK case, which is remarkable. And there's a whole industry devoted to, you know, murder porn and whatnot, where people you know show you on the forensic shows. Well, then suddenly this piece of evidence came out and blah blah blah. Over time, even when cases go cold, over time, almost every murder case, right you remove suspects. Suspects become removed one way or another because new things are learned and after a while,
a new technology emerges or whatever else. The suspect pool shrinks, and the theoretical pool shrinks over time one way or another, even if the case goes cold, and there's whole Like I said, TV shows, TV series devoted to showing you that over time they figured this out because the new science of this and this new thing came out, and now we had DNA evidence and so on and so forth.
The only murder case that I know of where this doesn't occur is all the stuff connected to Kennedy that in this case, all we see is an ever expansive pool of evidence, an ever expansive pool of suspects, an ever expansive pool of theoretical possibilities, and like you said, it just seems like it never ends. Matt, I mean, what do you think of that?
I agree, I absolutely agree. At this late date, all we can do is eliminate this theory, that theory, and this suspect and this suspect and just just follow the evidence wherever it leads, wherever that may be.
You listen, I'm with you on that. And I still hold out hope that there is a possibility of getting down to the bottom of this, because some people have said to me over the years, look, all these years, all this work people have investigated, doesn't it seem to you, Chuck, like nobody's ever going to get to the bottom of this.
And then they add on something like, you know, well, maybe that's the way it's meant to be, or maybe that's because there is nothing to get to the bottom of hope, maybe it was just Oswald after all, you know, And I, you know, I shake my head at it and I say, no, it cannot be. There is no way for anybody to draw you know, even a half of a correct scenario here where you can prove the
official explanations. You just can't do it. So we're missing something. Yes, indeed, does it mean that you know there's going to be a smoking gun document that's going to come out? I mean, do I honestly believe that we're going to see a CIA document tumble out that says, look, we're the ones who did it, and here's how it was done.
No, uh, what, I personally think that there was a smoking gun document released in nineteen ninety three that was that was the deposition of the of JFK's embalmer Tom Robinson.
Because you know, for thirty.
Years, even to this day, people say Oh, well, look, if JFK was shot from the grass, you know, where's the bullet?
Where's the grass and no bullet? Where is it?
You can't show me the bullet. Well, where's the bullet? And Well in nineteen ninety three, thanks to Oliver Stone's movie, all these documents started getting declassified and hold the testimony of.
His embalmer Tom Robinson.
Robinson said that during the autopsy there were ten fifteen metal fragments removed from Kennedy's head. Those are not in evidence today, so why weren't they admitted into evidence? All that's admitted into now are two very small micro fragments about the size of a broken tip of a broken pencil.
So there's your grassy no bullet.
Well, either that or the grassy no bullet did indeed miss because there is evidence of a bullet landing on the other side of Elm Street that was witnessed by some people. And I feel as though, yeah, the grassy grassy nole shooter could have existed but also missed, and still we have other things happening here. In fact, I'm one of these people who thinks he was struck from the front. Uh, you know, very much a tip of the hat to Sherry Feaster's work on that, uh, quite frankly.
But but anyway, again, we can go in a lot of different directions here and now we just walked right away from Tippet and went straight to Kennedy. But but you're gonna do your presentation on Tippet and what do you what are you calling it? By the way, what do you have a title for this?
Yes, sir, it is called the minimum the Minimal Facts Approach to the Tippit.
Murder, The Minimal Facts Approach to the Tippet Murder, Yes, sir. And I would advise that you guys take a look at the articles that that Matt has written at Kennedy's and King. Uh, there will be a link to his profile over there and interesting interesting website. That's the old Sitco website for you people who have been around for a while, and it continues on as Kennedy's and King. Any articles over there that you especially think people should look at, Matt of yours of mine?
You know what, check out the the fact check I did on the National Geographic Channel that was you know, every and of every major anniversary. The mainstream meeter always puts out this, you know, major documentary that's pushed.
So this is the latest one, so check that out.
Was it was it for the sixtieth anniversary or was it for the fiftieth? Which one it was.
For the sixtieth anniversary? My national geographic?
Oh yeah, you know, there were some interesting things that came out during this past year and that year indeed, a lot of stuff on streaming platforms. You know, I got the one on Paramount, you know with the doctors again.
Yeah that was filmed. Oh gosh, that was filmed like ten eleven years ago, so that was yeah.
Yeah, it was filmed around the fiftieth, but here we go. They released it around the sixtieth. But it seemed like every streaming platform had themselves some Kennedy stuff, right, you know, Paramount, like I said, which was CBS or whatever before. I think Netflix is the only one that didn't run something new.
Yeah, that's yeah, that's the thing.
It seems like the mainstream media put so much emphasis on the assassination for the fiftieth anniversary, but now they just don't care.
It's sort of like a swan song.
Okay, here's here's our effort.
Goodbye.
You know, they did want to tell us that, you know, as far as because they were briefed by the CIA, they did want to let us know that these documents that were tumbling out finally, you know, pretty much they released all that needs to be released, and there's nothing to see here, folks, except a couple of crappy things they brought out, you know, which I really found very funny when CNN was working on it, you know and coming out and saying, oh, look, here's this thing that
says there's an account for a shooter from the front, and they were pushing stuff on there that was ridiculous as opposed to looking at you know, some of the serious stuff that was later on developed out of some of those documents, you know, like this weird account of somebody told somebody, you know, a source over here said that there was a shot from the front, and it was like the document just sort of ends and doesn't even it's got no it's got no providence to it.
You have no way of knowing who the source was or what the hell it is. It's just an acdotal notation, you know. And uh, they called people out seriously to discuss that, didn't they you know, But but never tell
us about all the other stuff that's been unearthed. And also, yeah, even though there's still all this stuff, and the Biden administration is being sued right now because in twenty seventeen, the Trump administration didn't do it, and then then you know, Biden gets in there and he doesn't do it.
Yeah, what happened?
Missed to Yeah, what miss happened, mister deal Bricker, Mister art of the deal is like, Oh, I'm gonna release those files. It's gonna be great, big beautif of files one meeting with the CIA. Oh yeah, actually we're not going to be releasing them. What happened mister the deal? Sorry, come on, it's a bit. It was a big letdown.
So well, what did happen? Well, you know what they're saying now, is that now when he gets in this time, he's gonna release the stuff. Yeah, because he's got RFK Junior with him and he's gonna make him do it. Okay, Yeah, i'd look, I'm not holding my breath, okay, And I.
Think probably it's pretty cruel what he did to get rfk's endorsement. He's like, Bobby, if you endorse me, I release your dead uncle's big beautiful files.
I'll do it for you, and you know he's.
Not going to do it, So that's that's cruel for him to play on his on his on his emotions to do that.
That's my personal opinion.
But you know, well, what would be also interesting would be to release, you know, some other stuff. I bet you the president could probably get some stuff released about his father's deaths, even not just his uncle's death. But I guess we'll just have to stay tuned and see how that goes. What can I say, Yeah, the l a p D.
I don't think so on on his father's death. The l a p D.
I mean, is the most corrupt police force in that's a whole other Yeah, I forget that.
I forgot that when I was like twelve years old.
I was like, they covered this is Bobby's anyway, But yeah.
No, I get it, and believe me, it's even Vince Boobliosi once said that it was like, you know, obvious that there was a conspiracy there. But you know, and wherever he's at, I hope it's good and warm, but you know, look, it is what it is, and we're faced with these things now. But man, oh man, I don't know. I'm just not holding my breath over these files. I know that a lot of people are, and really
I wish to be wrong. But in twenty seventeen, I told people that even though we had waited twenty five years and we were waiting all that time, you know, don't be surprised if it doesn't all come out. And guess what, it didn't.
So you know, yeah, the main thing a lot of us want, including Jeff Morley, is the fifty files that are still classified on classified on George jo Needi's I mean, that's you know.
That's a big th that's still classified.
So yeah, but Brett, Brett Kavanaugh put that to sleep for everybody, so you know that, right, it was Kavanaugh that ruled on that and killed it. Yeah, that's anyway. Look, I don't want to get into modern politics with you, Matt, because God help us all. And besides, I'm exhausted from that and I'm almost exhausted from trying to look at
this tipic case. But anything you want to throw in before we're done, because I've been at you out for an hour and I hope people are gonna, you know, get more interested, and even if you just want to tune in to see Matt's presentation. It's gonna be interesting. I mean, Bob Groden will be there. I'll be the MC. There's a virtual presentation from Larry Hancock. There's a huge list of people that are going to be presenting. Alex Harris.
I'm looking forward to again that young man. That's the youngest person I've ever seen at a conference last year. Sorry Matto, what you were saying something.
I was agreeing with you?
Yep, Yep, he's a good Yeah, he's a good young lad.
So yeah, I really like Alex and I actually hope I get to hang out with him a little bit this time. I think he's going to be with us the whole weekend this year, and looking forward to his presentation and all of it, to be honest with you. So yeah, the Lancer Conference will take place between the twenty second and the twenty fourth of November, literally landing
on the correct anniversary dates. So in the morning I'll be going down to Daly Plaza before we start the conference a little bit afternoon when Mike Swanson kicks it off, And anybody listens to my show knows Mike and knows that he'll be setting the table perfectly for the rest of the conference. But do you know what day you're going to be speaking on, Matt?
I was originally going to be speaking on Sunday, but as of now I'm speaking on a.
Friday morning instead of Sunday.
So right, okay, so we're actually shuffling things a little bit. Yeah, I know that that's happening right now, but I'm looking forward to it and definitely looking forward to seeing what you're gonna do. And I urge you guys to take a look at Matt's work and that masterclass with Pat Spear. That's got to be real good. I haven't looked at it yet, but just knowing Pat and his work, I can recommend it. So just that simple. Anyway, Matt, I want to thank you for doing this with me.
Hey, thank you very much.
And for those listening, you can get your tickets at Assassination Conference dot COM's slash tickets.
So here you go Assassination Conference dot com and that link will be in the show notes as well. So remember this, guys, no matter who you are, where you are, when you are, I am merely o'celly. All of you are.
Go ahead, call it just sit in the truth about the day Ay assassination.
Right, Well, what do you want to know Ludy Baker's wild claim Oswald girlfriends you knew Ruby and Barry dancer weapons? Really, I imagine I could claim I have four wheels. It doesn't make me a wagon. But okay, Oswald was on the building and I'm trying to prevent the murder of John Kennedy.
Come on now, has a real effort on the day of pay assassination.
Booking to Reclaimed go to Amazon dot com entered Judith Baker in her own words. You'll get the results for a digital copy of a book where Walt Brown utilizes her own words and the known evidence in the case to get at well a different perspective. Let's say you can get Judith Barry Baker in her own words from the author himself, signed if you request it by contacting
doctor Brown at kias jfk at aol dot com. It's a fun book and it actually dissects the many, many fantastic claims Judith Barry Baker in her own words.
Thank you information.
This is James Corbn at Quorter Report dot com and you're listening to the o'celly affected o'helly dot com.
The War State by Michael Swanson explains the great national transformation that took place and put the Kennedy presidency in the context of the times and reveals never before published information about the Cuban missile crisis. President Kennedy would not have been assassinated if he had been president two hundred years ago. His assassination took place in the context of the Cold War and the rise of the national security state. Before World War II, the United States was a continental republic.
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