Ready, get ready for.
October eighth, twenty twenty five, allegedly, according to that thing we call a calendar, this the Ocelly effect. How do I know that because you found us and I'm glad you did. Anyway, Wednesday it's the middle of the week, they say, and some places, I guess they still call it Hume Day. I'm not sure. But either way, we're not talking about that. We're not gonna talk about the days of the week or the uh you know what do they call that? The etymology of the names and
the nomenclature. No, we're not doing all that, but we are gonna be sophisticated. Why do I say that. Larry Hancock is with me live today and we're gonna tackle guess what, some JFK stuff And maybe next time we get together we're gonna do something way different. So stick around. And it's always different with Larry anyway. If you go to Larrydashancock dot com you read his blog, you know he's got a diverse array of interest that he could
be relating to you on that blog. He's definitely written a great many books that cover a lot of ground when it comes to the behavior of the national security state, et cetera, et cetera. Let's see most relevant books today on this discussion would have to be the Oswald puzzle tipping point. Someone would have talked, Yeah, all that, and maybe nexus nexus might be one. I know I don't mention that one often, but nexus is a good one, and I also just love that word. But anyway, Larry
dash Hancock or Larry Hypenhancock dot com. In the show notes, you'll see it along with links to books, etc. So now that I've gotten that out of the way as quickly as I could, Larry, how are you doing tonight, sir?
Oh, I'm doing fine this evening, Chuck. Happy to be back.
Yeah, listen, I am thrilled. And recently I was doing an interview with somebody who wanted me to break down films on the jfk assassination, and I brought you up and how I'm so happy to have you on, and I had to reference something that we recently spoke about, not because you and I talk about films, but just so happens, you and I talk about evidence, and I was talking about evidence collection and how it is you should view things in history and context. So as soon
as I mentioned the word context. I said, Larry Hancock's name has to come up here anyway, I did that. And this is interesting because recent file releases, Jeff Morley got very happy because he got at least part of what he's been asking for for I don't know twenty years now regarding the Joe and Edes file, etc. People have made declarations about this. Jeff has written about it quite a bit. Of course. JFK facts and he does his zoom calls and he's got that thing going. And
he's the author of many books. We know that former reporter, and we saw the article in his publication that he used to work for at one point about this. And he's been involved with Representative Luna and the Oversight Committee. And I'm trying to catch everybody up. Larry, I'm sorry. I'm not trying to kill the air. I'm trying to get things out of the way for you. But there's a lot here to unpack, so to speak. And Jeff
has said a few things about what's been discovered. And oh, by the way, a name that I didn't used to hear very much, but did hear in short bursts in different time periods in research, Lore William King Harvey's name comes up a bit lately, and one would wonder, Oh, I don't know, how should we begin to look at, you know, what Jefferson Morley has been declaring, what he's been writing about, what they're writing about at JFK Facts, etc. And I'll give you guys the link to JFK Facts
tonight too, just because you should follow what Jeff is doing over there. Of course, he's also the vice chair of Mary Farrell Foundation. I think you owd a position with them too, don't you, Larry.
Ah, Yes, sir, I am a board member.
You're a board member as well. Okay, Look, I can't keep track of all this, but I'm just saying there's been a lot said, and I'm wondering, what about the progress, Larry, what do you think about the progress? Have we learned something really truly new with the personnel files, etc? I mean, do you have an independent evaluation of this or what
do you think of what Jeff has been writing? I mean, not personally about what Jeff is writing necessarily, but about the information that he's been writing about and what is known that maybe previously wasn't etc. I'm throwing a ball of questions at you where should we begin, Larry.
Well, I think it gets back and you mentioned context, and I think it's fascinating at this point time, we have spent decades essentially building context for what was going on in nineteen sixty three, nineteen sixty two, nineteen sixty three. Who was doing what, who had what job? You know,
who would be suspects? It just JFK Research has spent a lot of time building data structures, if he will, about who was doing what now while we were doing that, which is largely grunt work, you know, what everybody is hoping for is, Oh, for some reason, the government actually knew what really happened, and it's all in some files somewhere, and if we could just get them to release them, you know, we could avoid all that nonsense. We don't
have to do it ourselves. It's there and they will tell us, you know, like that would be great because that shortcuts the whole process. They know, their studies, their reports. That's just great.
What'd you call it?
Well, now that the files are being released, we see that that is not true. You know that. I don't know that many of us ever really thought that that was going to happen, but it was. It was kind of a hope. So what we're getting is more bits and pieces to put into this structure that we built. And a real question that comes out of all of that is which of those bits are significant? And do any of them really open a door?
Right now, Wait a second, here's the thing, right the general public is almost in in some researchers are almost
in the perpetual search for the smoking gun. Okay, that's really what I call that, where it's like I'm going to find this one clutch of documents or document that absolutely proves insert in something into the blank, you know what I mean, and therefore the case is now totally different or we have and I've always said, you know, look, you're not going to get like, hello, I'm the agent in charge, and I here is my confession, okay as to how I allowed this to happen, participated in it.
Fill in the blank. Again. You're not gonna get that the smoking gun is not going to be there. It's not going to be We knew this, and we knew it this time, and this is how it went down on one page. You're not getting that, okay, So you got to remove the less than realistic expectations of the
general public from the equation. And then you also have to remove some of the anxiety from researchers who maybe have been in a pitched sort of work cycle trying to get at a particular corner of the information field right where they're particularly interested in, let's just say the Cubans,
and they're particularly interested in a group of Cubans. And by the way, that might come up in a minute here, you know, just saying, right, because Joe and Edes we got to talk Cubans, it's going to happen, and all of that needs to be taken in context here. First of all, remove your expectations and let's examine the evidence, what tidbits there are, because that's really what keeps happening is the collection. It's like collecting change in a jar.
Eventually you're going to have a bank that's going to pay for something big, but you've got to collect that change a while in that water bottle, right, Larry, I mean, isn't that what we're looking at here?
Yeah? It is. And but if you step back for a minute, what Jeff is pursued for all these years, you know, you might say, it's oh, it's real simple. It has to do with the student director at the Dre Joe and Edies. But what's at the bottom of all of it really is the question of did the CIA have a level of knowledge of Lee har Harvey Oswald? Were they using him operationally or thinking about using him operationally before the assassination? And did they withhold that from
the Warrant Commission and the HSCA. And was the CIA guilty of obstruction of justice? Because if you said that, that is a big thing. I mean literally, if I said stood up and said, yes, the CIA had information and they withheld it and you can't trust them. Therefore there should be a new investigation because the investigation that
was conducted was flawed. That's a big deal. So at the core of what Jeff is doing is really questioning the credibility of the CIA in terms of what they said or didn't say about Lee Harvey Oswald.
Well, shouldn't we be satisfied at this point though that the CIA certainly acted in a way to manipulate the investigation on some level due to the fact that if Joe and Edes was attached to the HSCA when there was supposed to be nobody involved in the circumstance sent to the HSCA to be a liaison. I may not be using the exact proper terms here, but I'm representing
this pretty well. Isn't that kind of a clear case of you intentionally sent us a guy who's going to have inside knowledge on certain things when you were told not to to be a liaison. That indicates to me that there is some effort to guide the investigation at the very least in the direction or two. Is that not a fair thing to say in your mind?
See would I would take a contrarian view of that, because some people are saying that that's what's really come out of this. I think that's a diversion because what the bottom line is, the HCA and everybody knew this was focused on collecting information relating to Cuba, the attempted assassination of cast Or, so you know, the HSCA to some extent was a follow on to the Church Committee.
So if you're going to provide a liaison to them, I mean you are going to need to pick somebody that knows something about those affairs that were going on
in sixty two sixty three. You're going to have to send somebody Now, what's the role of the liaison If you look at at what hard Way says and what others says, that we were just hoping for someone who would point us to information, not you know, so you your question of improper behavior is then did they not point them to certain information that would have helped their
investigation that would be culpable? And so in one hand, I can say assigning Joan Edes who was worked at Miami station, you know, did work with a student directorate. Did we're in he's He's the kind of person that you would want, I mean to help you. Then the question is did he help you? Now? Was he acting under orders not to help you? Did he make that decision not to help you? Clearly he did obfuscate and obstruct their efforts, There's no doubt about that that he did.
But I personally consider that, you know, as part of all the things that the CIA knew and could have helped with. That's only one part of it. So their lack of support is much broader than that.
Right now, that's true, But for context, Larry again, right now, now here's where I had context. Wow, I'm stepping into it. They also offered scientists to the HSCA when they said, we don't want people that were involved with the labs that previously worked with this stuff. We want fresh people on it. And guess what a disingenuous offering once again from the government to the HSCA, you know, the House Select Committee, the government offering to itself. Yes again people
under false pretense. Right, Look, we don't want people that were and they did this with the scientists. You know that too, right, So I mean.
Yeah, but I think that's different. Check because this case, the HSCA wanted somebody like that knew this subject, right, and they didn't want somebody neutral or objected. They wanted somebody that knew what was going on with Miami station and Cuba. They did.
Uh oh uh oh, Sorry you dropped off for a moment there and you said they did want somebody from the CIA station there, but go ahead.
Yeah, So I would say that's a little bit different. They wanted the liaison is there to help them things. Well, you don't want someone that doesn't know anything about the
CIA or anything about what they're looking for. The person has to have some credibility in terms of of knowing what they're asking about in order to help them, so that they had to whether it was Joan Es or some other officer that was familiar with this, they did have to pick somebody that supposedly knew where to go and could provide advice and and and knew the you know, knew the game that was being played. I'm not defending
joann Edies per se. I'm just saying to me, this is just one other example of you know, the CIA goes along and doesn't proactively give the investigation what it needs. Well, okay, I just see that as one more.
Time simultaneously, though, they didn't disclose this though to the HSCA people. Oh right, So.
Well, Joannides didn't disclose it.
Right.
Well, when I say they, I mean it wasn't disclosed to them, I should say properly, right right right, yeah, okay, fair enough, And yes, in the scientific arena, I would say that, indeed, it's a little bit more of a red flag because look, if you're asking for scientific you know, experimentation to be conducted, you don't require somebody who's already
familiar with the material, because science is science. Okay, So therefore familiarity is a factor here, and that's an adequate counterpoint to what I said, and that's why I presented it. But still I see a pattern of behavior here though, where disclosure is not exactly upfront regarding did you work with this stuff before? I'm just saying from more than one government agency, Okay, And I think that's a fair assessment, right, That's all I.
Would certainly yeah, I would certainly agree that the disclosure is not a priority, right, Okay, enough, And it gets much worse than that. I mean, that's what That's what join Edes really tells us, and that the door that is join Edes has opened is the fact, and Jeff has opened with join Edes. Was that knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald at the Miami station within the Special Affairs staff was far greater than we could ever document before.
Far more people were aware of Oswald, far more people were aware of Oswald in New Orleans, of his activities, of what he had done with the Student Directorate, with what was going on at Oswald. In contemporary fashion, we combine what the door that opened through join Edes with the door that Simpacha had opened early, which shows all these same people were also being told about Oswoll by the FBI, not just the Student Directorate, but by the FBI. So I can give you half a dozen people at
Miami Station who knew all this contemporary information on Oswal. Okay, they all know that he's been arrested. They all know that he's working with the FPCC, and there's an association there they all know about. You know, this is knowledge that's fairly broadly spread across both Miami Station and Jim Wave, SAS and jam Way. Yet they all know this in September, they all know this in October. Yet when Oswell shows up in Mexico City and my Mexico City Station asked
for information, nobody provides that information. Now you might think, well, this is just a mistake, it's a clerical mistake because that information is just in one file and it's at headquarters and it's in security, and we don't share stair stuff that's in security files, et cetera, et cetera. But no, it's not just in that one place. It's all over the Cuba Project and the Spatial Affair staff, and it's
withheld from Mexico City Station. So this really shows a level of compartment it shows a level of operational It proves I'll go beyond that, it proves a level of operational compartmentalization that we just thought about before we speculated about it. Jeff and John questioned, Buttermer and she says, yeah, it looks like that. Well, now there's no looks like it.
It is absolutely confirmed in two independent directions that there was something going on with nolg Edge about Lee Rvy Oswald, that the Cuba project, that Gerald's people were shielding from the rest of the CIA.
So there you have that. Also, I think it's worthy to mention though, that you have Oswald being noticed, let's say, in a lot of halls of investigation, okay, a lot of halls of intelligence, and yet he never quite makes it to the you know, the big ring binder of threat assessment when it comes to the Secret Service. You know it. And some people would say, look, that's a product of the time, et cetera. But you know, they had known threats. If the President was going to a city,
the known threats were tracked down. They had a little you know, a little flip book in some cases of these people that they had to go track down, figure out where they would be on the day the President would be there. Things like that. The advanced team had to do this stuff. So I'm just saying, look, there is a difference in the continuity of these agencies from then to now, certainly, but from then from a lot
of different points of view here. And you also have the oddity of you know, the FBI and the threat assessment and how that changed and there was an alert on them and it got dropped, And a lot of things are going on here. This is not like some stale old information either, Larry right. This is all current stuff, including the alleged visit to Mexico City.
So yeah, but there I think we've learned that there's that may make more sense than it looked like in the beginning. First of all, as far as the Secret Service and threat assessment, there's absolutely no reason that Oswald would have been considered a threat. You only got on the threat list if you expressed a threat, if you said the President ought to be shocked, the president, we got to get rid of him, so on and so forth. You know, he's a trader, he said. Oswell never said
anything like that. If anything, he said just the opposite. So there was nothing that Now what would make him of serious interest. And what jayek Er who were complained about, is that the CIA. Mexico City, not the CIA. Okay, Mexico City, who was generating the information on Oswald in
their station, basically didn't up the ante. They if they had known about his recent activities, if they had known about his arrest, if they had known about his connection to the affair Play for Cuba committee, clearly they would have amped up attention to Lee Harvey Oswall, not just
within the CIA, but with the other agencies. Now that they did report his they didn't did report his visit to other agencies, but they didn't report all the elements of it, and they didn't give it any recent history. They didn't talking about context, They didn't give it any current context because that was withheld from them. So even Hoover, we know, famously made a note on the thing that was like, we just cannot trust the CIA to provide
us with current correct information. And he was right right now, why wasn't that provided Well, it was because Mexico City station wasn't given it. So why was it withheld from them? Actually, the only thing that makes any sense is that Oswald was at a minimum being considered for operational use by the CIA. So I would agree with part of this there are a lot of things going on with Oswald,
but it wasn't. The system as a whole was being neutered to a certain extent because of this compartmentalization of information, which makes it a lot more important if you think about it. We've always talked about it. It's because what was the net result of all of this. The net result was to keep Oswald's profile at a low level, and the CIA did another action that was the same thing.
The Student Directorate had been promoting Oswald. They had been not just in New Orleans, but they had been sending out flyers and letters to Congress drawing attention to Oswald and proud about it because that's what they were supposed to be doing in terms of propaganda. So what happens does the CIA seize on that and make it a big deal, and because it was great, it was working, it was great media stuff. No, it gets shut down.
So not only does the information on Oswald gets compartmentalized, the propaganda that the DRE had started gets shut down, and suddenly what was a great story and what they thought they had done really goes away. So it's all being dampened down domestically inside the United States and your point earlier. The point is Oswald's profile is lower than it should have been, maybe not as a threat, but just in terms of visibility.
Well, and we also still to this day, I don't think, no, precisely what was in the hands of the what is it, the House on an American Activities Committee, right, because I've heard of allegations. I've read of allegations that indeed Oswald's name and other informa might have traveled to that, right and those files are still classified all the way around as far as I know. Maybe I'm wrong about that. You know, somebody could check on.
Now, that could be good considering what the dr the letters that they were writing to Congress, the flyers they were sending that that certainly wouldn't be. In fact, you'd almost expect some of that to hand up with the HFCA because obviously they were sending it to conservative, right wing android you know, anti communist legislators, right who you know? That seems like that would be a logical thing. So no, we don't know about that, right, No.
I just wanted to point that out. Okay, So let's get back on track. What have we learned very recently though? Outside of what you've already pointed out that is of significance in your mind. I mean, is there some other bullet point here to be made regarding this? And oh, by the way, why did I mention William King Harvey earlier? Maybe we should get to that. Give somebody a thumbnail in case they've never heard that name. I've heard it really way out of context in other fields of study.
Let's say, you know where people talk about, you know, his behavior and where he got sent and everything else. I mean, who is this guy? And you know, how do we enter that into the discussion? But also what have we learned as of late? That's like brand new? Is there something brand new?
Yeah, go ahead, there is something brand new? And I think here we get back to So let's let's have a picture of Mexico City Station station in the summer fall of nineteen sixty three. What's going on, Well, there's a lot going on. But on one side over with the Fitzgerald's Special Affairs staff, which is the Cuba Project. We just talked about the fact that Oswell is visible.
He's visible to a number of people there, both in the propaganda section, the counterintelligence section, and that information we can't. One of our problems, of course, is that, as I been, one of our problems is that all of the memoranda and reports that we should see related the information being passed on from the student Directorate is gone, literally gone. It's just missing. The case officer reports, joined EDI's reports
are gone. We look at the history of the group for that year at headquarters and we find nothing about this, which is insane. But so we know that the special affairs staff there know about Oswell, they know about Oswell's
engagement with the DRE. Uh. That information would have been shared with the other people at the station that have been working the DRE issue, and that would include David Morales, and it would include uh, you know Morales because he had actually been the military officer advisor to the DRE up until about the beginning of the year. Uh, that information would have been passed on. Uh. He was, he was one of the he was. His complaints were one of the main reasons why Helms brought in Joann Edes
and they put the dr into new management. So, you know, that's an obvious thing. So people in Miami station know about Oswald, what else is going on? So and that's been hidden Okay, so let's just look at what's been hidden. The knowledge of Oswell has been hidden, sanitized, scrub whatever you want. And and after the assass it's amazing. After the assassination, all of those people whose names that we
see copied on distribution from the FBI. Oh, the FBI told none of those people ever admitted having heard of Oswald. It's like, yes, there was a there was a knowledge of Oswald that everybody chose not to talk about, not just join Edies, but a lot of other people, John Ed's boss, Tilton, the CI people, a lot of people just wasn't just join Edies holding back information. Uh. But
then again, nobody asked them the right questions, you know. Okay, of course, yes, So let's let's go to to William King Harvey, who, after his testimony to the House Select Committee, was quoted by reporters as saying, oh, they didn't ask me the right questions, like can you see law enforcement things going on like this? It's like I won't tell
the police. You know, they didn't ask me if my cousin killed this guy, so I don't have to tell them, right, you know, it's unless they ask me the right questions.
I'm safe, everybody's say, But William. The other thing that's going on in Miami that is totally mysterious and totally compartmentalized is the Castro assassination project that's been going on for about two and a half years by that point in time, and it's known under the crypt z R rifle slash m I, which means uh assassin assassination project
targeting Castro run through Miami station right, very specific. So there are a group of people that have been involved there supporting this for some time and they're still supporting it, and there are no records of this. And when inquire were made, the people said, basically, we never wrote memoranda about those sorts of things, We never made documents. It was all on telephone conversations. It's was never discussed anywhere. So you're never going to find any record of it, Okay.
But one of the things that we've kind of missed in a way was that that project was still very live up until the time of the assassination, and the person who had been running it was William King Harvey. William King Harvey had had started he hadn't started the effort,
It had started before him. Under Richard Bissell. Okay, Richard Bissell started this assassin executive action project, if you will, to set up a system by one whereby you could kill senior foreign leaders if somebody unquote press the button. That task was given to Harvey by Bissell. He started working on it. How you would set it up, who would you would use, how would you make it deniable? And then shortly after that he was assigned to the UH the New Cuba project that came out after the
missile crisis. I'm sorry. After Bay of Pigs and et took over Mongoose under Lansdale and and revived the assassination project and made it part of this. You know, we've got an assassination project. Castro is a foreign leader. He qualifies, So we'll call it ZR Rifle am I, and we'll
target it on Castro. So, if you think about it in for a minute, William King, Harvey is like, how many people inside the CIA are actually trusted, selected felt to have the fortitude, the moral quotient whatever to kill presidents and national leaders at direction? You know, there aren't a lot of those guys. He's very unique in the fact that they picked him in the first place that he took the assignment and that he carries on with
it through nineteen sixty three. We never really understood the fact that he carried under We thought we thought it was done in nineteen sixty three. We thought we had been misled by the fact that it had been closed down, he'd gotten rid of the assets, and he had been transferred to Rome as a political officer in Rome, headed the CI station there, And so really he as of April March April he had he should have been off the map, as it were, inside the US. He shouldn't
have been doing anything in the US. But what Jeff's work is uncovered, and what the committee hascovered is a document showing at exactly that point in time, there is an application to the FAA for a new credential that would give Harvey essentially an FAA cover. Okay, suddenly he's working for the United States the FAA and he has FAA credentials in his name, which is very interesting because what comes out of that It appears that he could use those credentials to travel at will anywhere by air
domestically that he wanted. And I think it's interesting that his biographer rights that he was at such a level inside the agency that he didn't have to get permission for anything that he did, any travel. He doesn't have to you know, he doesn't have to have projects, he doesn't have to get assignments. He just goes and does whatever he wants to do and if he decides he wants to file an expense report.
And also being assigned to Rome, at this point, one would beg the very simple question of what you need FAA credentials for? If you are now attached to the station in Rome, you're not given to really through your work, have to fly in the US. So much seems like or do you have to be involved? You know how much involvement with the FAA do if you're in Rome. I mean, it's just basic.
You have none. It makes That's that's why I consider this another. What this has really raised the bar on is and you know this Chuck that listeners may not know this is that for a period of time we have known that this this group that Harvey had put together to kill Castro in various ways, had himself John Roselli, Antonio Verona, and a few guys Uh Morales out of the Miami station that was that was the core of
the group. Okay, it's been known for some time that that Roselli actually went to Washington, d C. At the time the Garrison investigation was started and tried and talked to Jack Anderson flowed a story that got all the way to Hoover Johnson, basically that there had been a conspiracy and that the conspiracy involved Fidel Castro taking a group of CIA assets that have been trying to kill him and killing the President of the United States instead. Now that that story never made much sense if you
think about it a bit. One of the things this is raised the whole question of we need to take another look at these guys, Harvey, Roselli, Morales what they're doing in nineteen sixty three, because Harvey is obviously doing something operationally that we didn't know about and that we don't know about. And one of the things I've been doing, I've just just been reading through the best biography of Harvey called Floyd Patriot. But I find that Harvey was
among his closest friends independently circulating that same story. Rosselli was, Yeah, Castro killed JFK. And he used these Cubans to do it. And you know that they CEI thought there were there guys and they were actually Castro's guys. So Castro's behind it all. It just looks like it was anti Castro Cubans because it was so well done and everything. So Harvey is spreading this conspiracy story independently as well. Something
is going on. These guys have even got their story synchronized, right, Why would this be? Why should they even be know each other, why should they be friends long term? As we now know they were? What's going on in nineteen sixty three that they felt that they had to defend with his story When Garrison starts his investigation.
Well, and there's the trouble, right, because it's not necessarily that the story is accurate. But what is being covered with this story? Because one would think also that you know, what about the sabotage operations that were going on, right and things like that, which were going on concurrently with
the assassination against Castro. Right, these things are going on at the same time, the pig flu and you know, the swine virus whatever, swine flu, all these weird sabotage operations and things, right, So.
One might say the interesting thing is yeah, good, yeah, Jack you got The really fascinating thing about is we know about all those Yeah, those have been revealed and documented.
Those were sanctioned, as as nasty as they might be, right, they were sanctioned projects. We know about them. The Church Committee flushed them out and investigate them, and we know when they stopped or started, when they stopped, who was involved. We know about all those other things. We know about the missions that were being ordered against Cuba out of JM Wave, We know about the Amworld project, We know about the Regime chan we know about all this other stuff.
We know nothing about what Harvey was doing with the r rifle. And it appears that that was totally undocumented, totally out of uncontrolled, and it's unclear that Fitzgerald even knew about it. It literally is unclear that anybody knew what Harvey was doing. Yet Harvey was doing something so significant that he gets an FAA cover and credentials and it's invisible. What and the heck was that?
And studying what Jack Anderson winds up floating, okay, as a journalist in air quotes, but you know how much agency contact he had and how much propaganda he was putting out there in order to steer the narratives. Let's say. Look, I'll leave that for someone else to study, and I'm
not going to ask you to explain it. But one would say that it is rather curious that this story is being floated by a guy like him and a guy like Harvey, because you would think normally they would give Anderson the disinformation right in order to cover the thing that Harvey knows about that. This is the way
I would see the pattern normally that Harvey's doing. Here's Jack Anderson with the cover story to kind of steer people away from the real deal, and we have synchronization of these two things, am I reading?
Yeah? Right, Okay, now that's exactly. Well. First of all, you would expect everybody not to talk to Jack Anderson. I mean, at that point in time, Roselli was actually under heavy FBI pressure, he was under legal pressure, he was likely to be deported, he was likely to go to You know, there's no reason for Roselle to make himself visible. You would want to be as invisible as possible. You don't want people, you know, the fb's our eyes
already on your case. Now they're going to be on your case because the President assigned us to interview about your assassination story. You know, last thing he needs is more interviews with the FBI diddle with Harvey. Harvey had already been under express censure actually internally, and could have been fired because he had continued to meet with Roselli, a known criminal figure. I mean, the CIA guys that knew about that thought, why this is insane, Why would
he do this. There's something going on between these two guys that is just strange. And so I think you've got a real point there. First of all, they would have been saying nothing. Something put them under so much pressure that they felt that they had to personally start circulating disinformation. What was that? Was it? Because they thought there was going to be an investigation and the investigation
was going in the right direction. Because we do know at that point in time when that happened, that Garrison had his investigation buried and nobody knew about it, and he was going to Miami and he was going after Cubans that had been associated with us Oswald and he ended up being directed to Bernardo, to Taurus, who is a prime suspect is being part of all of this, and Detaurus worked with him for a bit and then immediately took it to the press and blew open his
whole investigation, which started his downfall. But you know, obviously one thought is that somebody was really afraid that Garrison was starting to look in the right direction. So if anybody's going to look towards Cuba, we want him to look at Fidel, not our Cubans, right, right.
And the other strange thing here is that, you know, when they're talking about, well, the anti Castro Cubans were turned back around the other way, well, Oswald was like a pro castro guy you know, out there, which is weird, right because and not even officially, because he wasn't officially part of the Fair Play for Cuba committee, Right, So he's out there with a chapter that really wasn't established, claiming to be the treasurer I think in the interviews,
right and literally you know, doing the flyer work and everything else without actually establishing a legit chapter.
Yeah, it makes no sense, you just it makes about us little sense. I keep going into my mind. It's sort of like, Okay, I've got a team of anti Castro Cubans, right, They're going into Cuba. Castros, people catch them. They don't kill them. Castro just says, hey, good news, We're going to release you if you go back to
the United States and promise to kill the president. And the guys go, oh yeah, cool, Well show us the way to the boat and they go back to the United States and immediately go to the You know what hole does he have over them if he returns them to the US. They're fanatically anti q Castro. He catches them, sends them back, and then they do what he asked him to do.
I doubt it, right, And meanwhile, you got them in proximity to different people that don't belong in proximity with them. I mean, it's just it's really strange. I mean, if you put these guys with David Ferry, you say, okay, this kind of makes a little bit of sense, right, But putting them with all right, look, it just gets it gets my head spinning. But ultimately, Larry, you know, what are we looking at here that that's you know,
brand new? Like I said, Okay, now we know certain things that were speculated about in the past, but there's still more to be uncovered here because I mean, obviously Jefferson Morley didn't get everything. He wanted. He got a lot more than he you know, got all these you know, all these many years now with the lawsuits and Bret Kavanaugh finally putting it to bed, you know, and all that. But you know, how much progress do we make here
out of this? We have a better idea that you know, it's not just the fingerprints but literally the greasy handprints of intelligence on Oswald now right where it's like, look, they were doing something with him, but can we be certain what it was? Was he just going to be useful as an asset? Was he somebody that could be directed? You know what? What are we looking at there? We don't know still right? Or is there something to be gleaned there that I'm missing?
It's a long shot. I think The point is we have we actually have had a lot of documents released from Miami Station and the Special Affairs staff over on the military side. You were talking about it, sabotage operations, infiltrations, attacks we know we've seen virtually and we know what their budget was, and we know that half of their budget was for propaganda and political actions. We've seen none of that. If Osweald was being considered for use in anything,
it would have been that. So do those records still exist and we've just not seen them? Mike, you find someone we know who join Edie's boss was. We know it's a fellow named Tilton. We know who some of these other people were. If if you did a real if you went to CIA and gave them these names and say, you know, we need their operation files, we need the projects they were working on, might that turn up?
I hope so, because Luna's got that list. Okay, So could that clarify matters in regard to Oswald and and how far and to what extent and how exposed the CI was, you know, like, what were they planning for him? How were they planning to use them? That would be that would be interesting. I mean, that's not going to give us the conspiracy. On the other hand, if we have a new focus on Harvey and Roselle and Morales and these z R rifle slash m I guys as
to what they were really doing. You know, maybe everything was talked about over the telephone, but still, I mean, Harvey, is there any record of his travel? He had to be doing something. I mean, there was a budge for ZR rifle that was a brew for sixty three, we have one, you still have one? Still?
My question right there, because that's where I was, is that the financial Look here, here's the thing, right, and I call this the mk Ultra solution because look, there's financial documentation here. Nothing happens without funding. Okay, even if you got a okay, it was phone calls, well, who
paid for the phone line? Something happened. If there was man hours invested, if there was cash given, if there were flyers printed, if there was you know anything, right, transportation, money is spent, and generally speaking, those are the receipts that will survive, even if people are trying to purge the files, so to speak. And that's what happened with mk Ultra in a nutshell, right, this is how it was reconstructed and people figured things out was from the
financial records. So I would imagine again that when money is spent, there has to be an account for it somewhere. Nobody's gonna hand just cash here, Ego, take it out of petty cash. Nobody will count it. No receipts got to come back. Okay, it's it's it's the government. I'm sorry, but that's the way it is now. I know that there are black budgets, and there are you know, off off the radar sort of you know, revenue streams, let's
call them. I know that, but for this, this revenue stream wouldn't have been like, Okay, we're gonna sell cocaine in order so that we can take that cash which nobody can account for, and then we're gonna do this with it. That was not happening here. This is the kind of thing where money had to come from somewhere in order to fund some of this stuff. So there should be a financial trail of breadcrumbs so to speak to this, don't you think, Larry, that was my whole question.
Yeah. The only reason we even know that there was a canastroussassination project in the first place, right, and what the Church committee you know, allowed them to dig into it is, Yeah, money has to be spent. So during the early on in the first Cuba project before the BAFPX landing, you know, how do you fund this? We need some cash. We're going to have to give some cash.
So these guys were using inside Cuba, We're going to there's got to be you know, we need fifty thousand dollars, Okay, right, Well, who's what manager is going to sign off for fifty thousand dollars? Horrible, Somebody's got to sign that off and it's got to come out. It's got to have a signing authority on it. And so what really happened is somebody had to call up somebody else and say, would you just sign me, you know, a voucher for this, and the guy immediately the guy goes, what am I
signing it for? You know, okay tell me that. Oh well, okay, there's a point in time where somebody has to disperse funds and they're going to want to know what it's for, and they want to going to cover themselves, right because when the ig shows up and says, you know, we can't find that fifty thousand dollars and we understand you've got a bookie, I'm going I want this piece of paper, you know, memoranda do self soft file. You know, here's
here's where it went. Go talk you want something. So yeah, I think the funny thing is Harvey was a real focus of interest for a period of time and then he dropped off the radar because I think we fool ourselves. It's like, he can't have been involved in nineteen sixty three because he was in Rome, and then we come up with this FAA credential that suggests no, he was doing continued to do something with this ZR Rifle Executive Action project that we don't know anything about and it
should be researched. So I think that's the real opening here. It's another It's like our attention is shifted back to something we we thought had no legs. You know, we just thought, well, he's he's gone. He can't really be part of this. He can't have initiated. But now we know we don't know, and that's always important to know. Wait a minute, I should have looked at that further. Is there an expense trail? Is there a travel trail? Or by the way, how often did he come back
from Rome? Did he did he come back from Rome? Did he work this issue? Or you know, could is this something that he could have just started off and it ran himself? Maybe? You know? So I think that's the real key when when you say what is new, we have a couple of keys that we didn't have before. And that's always the way it's worked, right, you know, you never you're not going to look into the files and find a solution.
Right.
The best that you can get is you're going to find keys that let you find something for yourself. This is this is not AI. This is this has got to be a human intelligence, right or wrong. It can't be AI because there's not a database for its to sert. You can't have trained it on this nonsense.
Well no, and I'll give you an example as to why. Let's just say, okay, Larry, that's indicative of this, and I insist upon that you better hold your horses because look, an FAA credential. Let me give you a potential idea for where that could have went to. Maybe he's got to deal with people at an Italian airport, so he shows up as an American FAA official. You see, it doesn't necessarily absolutely, so that's a possibility. But until we
know it, we don't know it. And that's the thing that was just a clearly hypothetical I pulled it out of thin air idea of where that FAA credential could be justified in another way. Right, So until we know it, we don't know It's go ahead.
Sorry, what we're what's being researched now is with that credential or who approved it? Who authorized it? Looks like it had to be approved by the head of the FAA. Was that a standard practice? Did lots of CIA officers have this sort of certificate? What you know is this? What does this credential give you? Can you The speculation is that you can just walk up to the gate, show this credential and deadhead on any aircraft and you'll never show up on any roster or any passenger list.
You'll just get on board, which I think you and I have talked about this before. It immediately made me think of David Morales. I talked to his friend Rubin. His friend Rubens was very impressed. One day when David needed to leave go back to DC. They went to
the airport. He didn't have tickets. You know, the flight was full, and Ruben is saying, you're never get to get on this flight, and Morales just looks at him and kind of sneers, walks over, flashes some kind of credential, walks on the flight, no ticket, no nothing, Well because Ruboves.
Are impressed, Yeah, because they're off the record ways to dead head on a flight, which is by the way, they do this for airline pilots all the time because they end up landing somewhere and they got to go back home. So there's always a seat for them almost on every flight where they can just stick a guy there who shows up and looks like an airline pilot. And we learned that in the movie Catch Me if
you can, right. I mean, this is something that went on for quite a while where pre nine to eleven airports, especially if you looked right, they gave you access to things and there you go and all you have a credential, government credential. I mean, look, there are guys that had you know, an FBI and a CIA, you know, a piece of plastic in their pockets, right, and a local
badge to you know, various cities. They would have these things in their pockets ready to go, because you know, you get access to places just by flashing car go ahead.
The interesting thing is that this isn't. If this is not. Harvey did have another alias that he was using, and that's another thing that's come up. We didn't talk about that, but at this same time or shortly, he had an alias that he continued to use. If you're station chef in Rome, you do not need an alias for the US, you really don't. And so what was he using that alias for? The FAA is going to have to explain this practice to Luna, to Kyle. It's like and apparently
as agreed. You know, we're going to research it. How often did this happen, who was given these passes, what was the you know, what was going on. So there's some more things that we can learn, regardless of you know, not having documents on a lot of stuff, just just the fact that you have to do something like that. If I'm going to be deniable within the agency, I'm going to have to do something that puts me on
record with another agency. Oh great, So you know, by the way, how many times did you use your credential or how long did you carry it? What were there any restrictions? That will be interesting to find out. But I so I guess that's yes, we have new stuff and it opens new doors. It doesn't give us an
any final answers. But I think the most most important thing to me is it does expand the extent towards the CIA, as you maintained earlier, did obstruct justice in regard to their knowledge of oswaldt right and it certainly opens the door to you know, if you take the scenario that, oh, a team that was supposed to kill Castro was turned and kill JFK, I would probably consider that would be more reasonable that it was turned inside the US than outside the US.
Right, Well, that would make most sense, right because you got all kinds of things that can happen if you have to import people. That was the other trouble with many of the other scenarios that were presented, you know, earlier on in my research path. Let's say where it's like, why do you need to go to all this trouble?
You got people here that can do these things. You know, just just saying, you know, if somebody's already in town and they're a mechanic, why not get them to fix the car instead of having a guy drive three hours to come and fix your car. Uh, you know, very simple. But anyway, they're just.
They're known and trusted and they and they come cheap by the way.
Usually you know, and they happen to be right there, which means speedy service as well. Anyway, it is what it is. Larry Hancock, again the author of many books, I will point to the Oswald puzzle, Uh, because that's quite relevant here. But also I think tipping point as well, Uh is quite relevant. Uh, someone would have talked definitely.
But anyway, all those things and much more go to Larry dash Handcock dot com, Larryhypenhancock dot com and uh, yeah, Larry, I appreciate you anything you want to throw in on your way out the door here.
Now I would say, since you're talking about books, what I would say, it's fascinating to me. The book is probably the most your Maine is a book called Nexus, where I sat down about, oh, I don't know, ten twelve years ago and said, from what I know about the CIA at this point in time, where would I look if this were to come together within the CIA? You know, let's see how the CIA did assassinations, Who were the people that were involved, who had the authority,
how could it be done? And that was the origin of the book Nexus. The whole point was where could a presidential assassination gel within the CIA? There you go so quite frankly that I think we're getting closer, unfortunately, to finding that hypothesis is credible, but it goes back that far.
That's right, and that's why I brought it up at the beginning of the show Nexus, by the way, But anyway, I was focusing on the assassination there this time, thinking about that. But Nexus, I brought it up at the
beginning of the show. And I don't mention it often enough because it is again not just an interesting book, but an interesting word in and of itself, because there are nexta seas I guess if it's plural, that you know, present to us some very interesting scenarios that are possible here. And as we learn more, we'll learn what is more likely and what is less possible, I guess, and all of that. Anyway, Arry, and again I think you.
Uncle, do you remember that time when Benjamin Fulford said that an Asian secret society was going to dispatch Ninja's to take down the Illuminati?
That's interesting, Yeah, in the clutchoon?
Yeah did that ever work out too good?
No?
It didn't, did it? But here on o'chelly dot com Radio network things work out a bit better, don't.
They much better?
Much me is clear and understanding about the programs, the programs, how much clearer getting live people into it. They really have a good conversation going.
Much better, much better scene I say, forget Benjamin Fulford and his ninjas and listen to the o'chelly dot com radio network.
I agree, it's straight to the point, straight talk, and I.
Like that idea Olly dot com. Do you like history, real history that you were never taught in schools? Why the Vietnam War, Nuclear Bombs and Nation Building in Southeast Asia by author Mike Swanson, with new documentation never seen before that'll open your eyes to events that led up to this. Why the Vietnam War, Nuclear Bombs and Nation Building in Southeast Asia nineteen forty five through nineteen sixty one. Get your copy today at Amazon dot com. Why the Vietnam War by author Mike Swanson.
Relation conversation, You are here, fetnversation, silence, broken, commission, dementation, elation, commisation, conversation, fall, spring, shine, the.
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Express my callers to is there anyone else who happens to get on the air of jelly dot com if not necessarily reflect reviews of the Jelly dot Com ord joo jelly and we are not responsible. We're getting stupidity which might ensued. Thank you, go ahead call.
It about the JFA assassination.
Right, well, what do you want to know Toddy Baker's wild claim Oswald girlfriends he knew? Ruby and Barrie answer weapons. Really, I imagine I could claim I have four wheels. It doesn't make me a wagon.
But okay, Oswal was on the building and trying to prevent the murder of John Kennedy.
Come on now has a real effort on the DAFA assassination inlaim. Go to Amazon dot com enter Judith Baker in her own words. You'll get the results for a digital copy of a book where Walt Brown utilizes her own words and the known evidence in the case to get at well a different perspective. Let's say you can get Judith Barry Baker in her own words from the author himself, signed if you request it by contacting doctor Brown at k I A S JFK at AOL dot com.
It's a fun book, and it actually dissects the many, many fantastic claims. Judith Vary Baker, in her own words, thank you.
For In Denial. Secret Wars with Air Strikes and Tanks by Larry Hancock. Secret wars became a staple of US covert operations and are still happening today. Larryhancock's book In Denial rips the cover off many of them, using new files. It exposes things about the Bay of Pigs that no one has ever written about before. It shows why it really failed and why the United States did not learn from it. It also shows why other countries today are
doing secret operations with more success. This is the book that puts what some want to deny into the light. In Denial, Secret Wars with Air Strikes and Tanks Larryhncock. For more information, go to Larry hyphen Handcock dot com. Pick up your copy of In Denial at Amazon dot com. In digital or physical faces.
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