The o Chile effect is sponsored by Wallstreet, Window dot Com and listeners like you, yeah, yeah, yeah, aggravated in our media tech'll October twenty four, twenty twenty three. Allegedly, according to that thing we call a calendar, this is the o'celly effect. So you found us, you hear it, and there it is. Most of you are catching the podcast further on down the stream. But we are live here on a Tuesday. So
what am I doing tonight? Happy to be speaking with one of the authors who is who has actually formed part of my foundational principles regarding the desire to continue to chase after the JFK case. Why is that? Well, there was this book called JFK and Vietnam, and yeah, that was one of those books that I believe was used for JFK the movie. But that movie had nothing to do with me as far as me getting into the case. I was into it beforehand and looking forward to it and it was happening.
But anyway, what was in that book that was so interesting is an excellent case regarding what in the hell was going on regarding Vietnam. And this is one of the principles by which I think it still matters, will continue to
matter, etc. Etc. That ultimate question regarding the Kennedy assassination. Well, as we approach sixty years here since the events in Dallas, Okay, one of the people that will be speaking in more than one place, apparently he'll be at the WET conference and also appearing virtually at the Lancer conference. But look, no matter where it is or how you get him, you got to get him because four volumes after that, after Oswald and the CIA,
after JFK and Vietnam. All right, what were those titles? Some people already know who I'm talking about, but some of you don't. So let's get to it. If you went to JFK, JM N, you know exactly who I was talking about. You'd look in the bookstore, okay, and you'd see volume four, which we're going to discuss tonight, which is uncovering Popov's Mole. But if you go through the other volumes on the Kennedy case that are there, number three is Into the Storm, Number two
is count Down to Darkness. Number one is Where Angels Tread Lightly. I don't remember if there was a subtitle to that or not. You know, I gotta be honest, that this I'm doing for memory and also what's behind me on my bookshelf. However, I haven't completely gotten through Popov's mole. I do know a little bit about this, and somebody was not well read into either Cold War history in the twentieth century, or maybe who was not well read into the JFK case, might say to themselves, well, Popov,
I remember, that's a cheap sort of vodka. Yeah, certainly was. I think it was one of the first ones I ever had. But no, we're going to find out who Popov is in the story. We're also going to again have to revisit something that I've said quite a bit this year, you know, regarding this revisitation, if you will, this reevaluation of the character of Lee Harvey Oswald, who may indeed not be the guilty party when it comes to the JFK assassination, but it's certainly a player in
the events in Dallas one way or another. Now I've given you a completely confusing introduction, and the man to sort it out is with me, John M. Newman. That's why that JFK. Jm N. That's Mary Nancy by the way, jm N. In case I'm not clear JFKJMN dot com. That's where you can go. You can go to the bookstore link there and get the books directly. They're also available on Amazon, et cetera. But enough out of me, doctor Newman. First of all, how you
doing tonight? Well, I'm about as busy as I ever have been in my life, working on about three books. I got a change Madison counter terrorism course, international terrorism course and things like that, and I like to go hiking, you know, around four thirty five o'clock every morning, so I'm pretty much just in my cave most of the time. Felt good? How do you feel? Rather not say I got a toothache at the moment and really wish I was discussing your Quest for the Kingdom book. We could
talk about the mysticism collected the Jesus. I'd rather discuss that tonight, but unfortunately we still have to tackle this assassination. I mean, six decades later and still not a satisfactory answer in my mind from anybody, And it is one of my focuses. I really would I'd love to sit and discuss mysticism with you one night. You're a curious character, I mean a history in
national intelligence. You've been described as a military story, and you've been described as well, you are a professor, doctor, etc. But I mean there's all kinds of things that people have used to describe you. However, you're again one of those prolific authors who has gone really really deep into the case, and a rare one at that. So that's what we're doing tonight. So let's get to it. Aside from my stupid joke about pop Off,
right, yeah, chee vodka? Now, who is Popov? In case there's somebody who has no clue and only can identify it that way, who are we talking about and how does this relate to this character we have known, although I think we need to get to know a hell of a lot better named Lee Harvey Oswald in the historical way, so to speak. Well, pop Off was a gr U major, an officer in the GRU. We'll leave out the Russian words for that, but it's military intelligence for
the USSR. So it's kind of part of the KGB, but it's a separate arm that focuses strictly on military intelligence. Pop Off defected to our side. The other thing about the GRU is it placed a lot of its operations directly onto places where east meets west, especially where spies could walk across boundaries easily, and that would be Berlin and Vienna, and those were his stomping
grounds way back into the nineteen fifty one fifty two period. And he came over as a defector in place in nineteen fifty two into fifty two, and unfortunately for him, he drunk a lot of vodka and that's not a joke. He did and had a mistress on the side, which he shouldn't have done. And he went to insane risks, insane risks to give his CIA case officer George Keesbaulter all kinds of good stuff, bury good stuff on nuclear weapons and what they're doing with that, and just a long list of things.
He always had a handful every time they met and krumget Go. Really the Kremlin they knew about him, They knew that he was a defector, and they were just waiting for him to make enough mistakes where they could actually arrest him and execute him without the sources of that information being known. How they found out about pop Off. So that's a short nut in a nutshell. The overall view of pop Off and perfectly willing to discuss it in more
detail, if that's what you're interested in. You mentioned how Oswald fits into this, not in the way most people think of Oswald, which is the last last year of his life, was sent to the Soviet Union in nineteen fifty nine as part of a mohunt, and the mole hunt was for the mold that pop Off warned us about. He warned his CIA case officer George Keith Wolter in nineteenth fifty eight in April, and he was on his way out. He knew he wasn't going to survive. Keith Volter told him,
you can come to the United States. Well, they could, you know, be able to get you there. But Popov said, and all his wife and kids were in the USSR, so he was going to take his lakes and he knew he was going to get killed. So at the last minute of the very last meeting in April nineteen fifty eight, he said, oh, by the way, there's a high echelon KGB Moull inside of the
CIA that had the technical details of the U two. A for a long time that seemed to be well, maybe that's when people were figuring out about the U two. It's not the U two was known about a lot earlier than that, because Eisenhower was letting them fly over Soviet territory back in nineteen fifty six in the Suez Crisis. And so that led to a series of events, and it's each one of which could take a long time to explain the details. So I'm going to fly about twenty thousand feet above you know,
high salon. I mean seeing the high altitude for low resolution until it's time to come down and to a set of tree somewhere and here and there. But basically, that war was a time when you would risk your high Achelon mole. You would never use a high a salon mole that you had in the other person spy services unless it really was it really was necessary because you might lose him. And this person, as it turns out it was, his name was Bruce Sally. Nobody ever figured him out for seventy years.
I figured him out because I was looking into him, but because I eventually realized that believe it or non, ancestry dot Com released all the records for airplane flights and ships around the world, going way back into the you know where. It was mostly ships, and then later on more airplanes as well. But it was parabytes and terabytes of information. It wasn't just a little bit here or there. It was the whole package, the whole planet.
But you had to buy the international version of ants trained to get it. Anyway, that was the thing that solved the problem, locked Bruce, all these boots on the ground at the crucial places in the huge spy wars that ensued after the Sere during and then after the Suez Crisis. UH. And so I guess I'll just keep talking a little bit about how that unfolded,
because there's another set of most people don't think about. So without talking about Popov's mole, let's talk about the British mole, Kim Philby, who had been a working for Moscow Center all the way back in the in the forties and thirties. He was recruited in Cambridge when he was in a British university and and so he ended up crossing paths with Angleton. And in the World War Two, the OSS in a lot of places and I got to know each other x or. Next two were the operations UH in support of
the Office of Strategic Services. This was the American of these were American forces that were parachuting into Europe and helping UH protect patents flank to his south so we could get across his dash across Europe. But anyway, and then you had British Special Operations Executive. They were dropping people in in in France as
well. Anyway, the point is that because Philby had access to all of these of what was going on, and he was in mi I six that's there, that's the British Intelligence Service like r CIA, he was telling everything that he knew through all the British intelligence including Enigma, the you know this machine that the wormuck excuse me, the the the uh Actually that's the military intelligence arm of the Nazis had made that machine. Anyway, everything he had
he gave the Moscow Center from a very early day. And so every time people we dropped people into the Soviet Union or Eastern Europe Albe, Czechoslovakia, things like that, they were killed instantly because Philbe would tell the Russians about it, and so that's so they died, all of them. There was no way when we got to this war in the Middle East, and there were three that was the Israelis and the British and the French invaded, and Eisenhower refused to go in anyway. So that was a big, a big
problem during the war because we couldn't get any intelligence. Eisenhower didn't want to participate, but he did not know what Khrushchov might be planning to do as well, were they going to show up. One of the things that caused the whole crisis was because there was an upsurge of popularity for Soviet Communism in the Middle East, especially the Muslims and areas like that, and so it was an intent period and in the only way they could get any information to
figure out what to do and what not to do. What's going to happen
was actually use this brand new thing called the U two. It finished its flights, its checkout flights in the United States early in nineteen fifty six, and by the time we get into May and June, Eisenhower allowed the U twos to fly over only Poland in East Germany for a while, but ultimately he needed to know whether there were lots of troop movements going south southwest in order to go to the Suez, and so he eventually in July nineteen fifty
six allowed the U twos to go across Soviet territory, but he made them come to his office. Eisenhower actually participated in every single one of those YouTube flights over Soviet territory, and we would say, no, you can't go here, let's send it, sent it over there. And that's what this
was a hands on thing. And one of the reasons another reason why popoff they have waited for a while before, you know, finding ways to get him that wouldn't give up the sources and things like that, because there was a huge battle going on in the Kremlin between this to succeed Stalin, who had died back in fifty one for the four year struggle, and Khrushchoff eventually emerged as the victor, but only slightly, against Malikoff and Malankoff and Malotov.
And he emerged, as I said, victorious, but only at the same time in the spring of nineteen fifty six. So he was brand new there and these guys were just waiting in the wings to replace him if he messed up. And now in the middle of this thing, we were all these two tube planes flying at sixty seventy eighty thousand feet. He couldn't shoot him down and he knew through another hole that people don't know about yet. And I'm going to be writing the sequel to VOKA four already in January.
It'll be coming out. And his name is James McCord. Yeah, McCord and Bruce Oli were flyers over Germany vomiteers, and that's when they were, you know, with the Russian flyers and so on. So see, now
McCord is a familiar name. I had no clue that he went that far back, because when you're talking about nineteen fifty six, that is, you know what, literally we're only talking nine years since the official inception of the CIA, right, so you know, you have the transitionary time from the OSS and some of the other agencies that existed then culminating with the creation of the CIA officially in forty seven. I think. So this is an interesting
transitional time period. And then they have their own you know, excuse the terminology here, but they have their own toys. Now, okay, a few years later, they have the spy plane, which is fairly new. They had other types of surveillance that they had developed post World War Two. I've gone over that kind of stuff where they picked up some of the German
intelligence people and all that before on the show. So you know, just saying it's an interesting time here where you're talking about the struggle in the USSR, but the CIA is not too far from being a newly minted agency as well. Right, So does that play a role in this story laying the groundwork or not? Well, they're new they may be newly minted, but they're having just as much problem as the Surreta in Paris and n I six in London. And they didn't know it, right, had no idea that
they had these moles and where. But the here's why they these moles were in the security office. The security office is like the one place you can't if you can investigators. They're the ones who investigate everybody else. Right, But Bruce Sally was the mole hunter for the CIA, and he was the mole Well that's the right guy. Oh you just hear on that. You
should probably just count to ten first for a second. I'll let that just go right through your brain and you see how much everything just changes instantly about what we thought we knew. We thought Angleton was the mole hunter. I did, we all did, right? No, he doesn't that that is not his responsibility. It's not the responsibility to counter intelligence staff that is in the Office of Security specifically, there are six staffs. The Security Research staff
is the one that's crucial. And within the Security Research staff and McCord the deputy chief of that research staff is the research branch, and that branch was run by Brusseli. Now, what did that branch have authority over all that all the people who were defecting, all false effectors, all moles, and every personnel and all the personnel records of every single person who worked in the
CIA at that one desk. Now, you were asking early in the in the warm up here for this interview, which because it easily if we don't watch out, will be at the end of an hour real fast. So but so you asked about, you know, how this Oswald fits into this? And the Oswald that you're talking about doesn't fit anywhere into this because that's nineteen sixty three, a little bit in sixty two, but basically it's the early sixty three and he puts that blackrod around his neck Viva fidel in January
and then and he's he's doing the uh, the cashro thing. Yeah, but this guy Oswald has a completely different place in history than a lot of people don't know about because they they they call themselves researchers, but they don't
do research. They read each other's books. And I'm sorry to say that it's like a thing going around and around in a circle, and it ever goes very far because it takes years and years to go through those six million pages of records, and you will find the needles in the haystack laying wide open, not predacted at all, and have been all this time. That's how where I get my information from. It just takes a lot of time. Now, so Oswald, how does he fit in? Well, we
go through this period and what they have to do. Uh, Khrushoff is decided he's going to intervene. He's not gonna He knows that they're that's high Salon mold that there has been a sleeper do they haven't been using him? Uh has the technical details of the you too, which is now flying buzzing all over the top of his head. What do you think he's gonna do? He's a big boss. He tells two or three of the top KGB guys, one of which his name is Ladislav Krshak, who was uh head,
the chief working against our embassy was embassy in Moscow. That you are going to go to Washington. Read my lips. You will go over there. You will find this guy Sally, and you will find these you will get those tech details and you will bring them back to me so I can shoot that plane down. Okay, yeah, you see, if you actually have a few pieces like this, it all fish together. That's what happened,
and it's one hell of a story. That trip that they made was one of the most ballsy, uh just insanely risky overseas trips the CAGB ever did. So these three guys, there's three of them, led by cars stocks are have to go to Washington, d C. And secretly meet with a guy who's it's like one of the most important guys in the security office of the Central Intelligence Agency and they got to meet him somewhere. They're going to have to have safe places to meet. Why think they're going all the
way over there? Well, because both the KG and B and C I break each other's crypt you know crypts, and you can't do dead drups because that's paper and you can't send uh, you know, can't send it in a mail, and you can't talk on a le phone when you're talking about high excelon moles that are so vulnerable if once they make a move, uh,
it'll show their hand, right. And so the only place way you could try and do it safely is you got to you gotta travel, which is why, which is why ancestry dot com ended up being such a big deal. And we'll talk about that later, but yeah, you have to travel. Onebody's somebody's got to go to Moscow or somebody from Moschuss got to go to Washington. That's the only way. So anyway there they go. But they have to prepare first because if they themselves, and they it was
very elaborate, but they did. They got passports, false passports separately from each other. They and and then they flew on different planes and then eventually they would meet up in Washington, d C. They didn't even they didn't even start work on this themselves because they were going to go over there unless they knew that the safe houses were all everything had been to figure out and
this you know, the uh, the skins were greased. So it took about three months for them to find out how they were going to do this, and the cost shop took care of it for many times. For many years, the State Department refused to allow any CIA people in the embassy good reasons because oh my gosh, you know, you get a pretty lady and next thing you know, the guys is being being recruited. But that's what
happened. So they the CIA decided that they would had just one guy behind the back of the Ambassador Bowen. And his name was that Edward Ellis Smith. We're married, but his wife is still back in the United States, and he was the one man, one man's CIA station there and this is in the spring of nineteen fifty six, and so they see this coming, they know what's going to happen, and so what they do is they they give him a very beautiful maid. Some say she was a KGB major.
It doesn't make a different bit of arns who she was. Because they busted in. They were in the sexual act with cameras and everything, and the guy went Edward Ella Smith just froze instantly. He thought it this is over for me. He didn't know what they were going to do to him away. They have to make a long story short here, because he was told he was going to get a great job in California, lots of money for the rest of his life if he just did this one thing for them.
He had to fool the ambassador, make him think that he hadn't gone over to the KGB side and agree to go over with this group to be there when they were there. He would be there first to prepare the safe houses for these Russians that were going to go meet with Sully. So it took him three months to do that. Now he had to be escorted because he couldn't take any chances that this guy, you're going to do this and if he if he rats you out, I mean it's just everything falls a piece
to pieces. Krushofkis met fires everybody, and you know, you know, et cetera, et cetera, aheads roll, and so he had to be escorted personally back over there. And then the same thing was going to happen when they they were going to do like a fake trial, and so he thrown out of the cion all that, and so you know, I got the travel record, so James McCord, and there was sixteen July nineteen fifty six orders approved by the Security Office for travel through we that's Western Europe ee
etern Europe and denied Solviat territories. Mission was to take and where Ella Smith back to Washington, d C. For punishment. So he esported them all the way back. When he got there, uh, and they were, you know, they were, they were. He was scared. He didn't know what what to make of it. But because they were going through this and McCord was in charge of this inquisition, and then he would tell him secretly on the side, don't worry about this. I'm going to give you
money every every every month from this they had a seat. He had a c i A you know, one of those little little money places that are fake that where you could get budgeable money from. And so he he made sure that he was going to have all this money that to play with, not the big money and the big job, but just while he was scouting out movie theaters all over Washington and so they did a ton of them.
And so they got to play a big shell game because they didn't the FBI wasn't interested in Ellis Smith because he was as hard as they knew he was
thrown out of the CIA. Was just a bum walking around the streets and without a job, looking, you know, for a way to make some money, right, And that's why this it worked so beautifully because they didn't watch him, but they knew that there were three Russians in town, and they didn't know where they were or how they were meeting, or who they were meeting, and so every time they tried to find they couldn't because it
was a big shell game. They were so adept at this thing that they'd worked out, and that was due to the genius of a cough shop. But anyway, so it worked, and that they all got there in December of fifty six and by January they were meeting in Washington. They were so they were so adept at doing this that the FBI gave them a moniker called them the three Musketeers. They couldn't never find them anyway. So that's that
part of it. And then there's another part of it, which is Sally is now going to get on airplanes and go himself to deliver the second half of the package. So they get they get to take details on the U two, but now Sally is going because he is powerful He could walk into a CIA station and nobody they don't know who he is, and doesn't except for the chiefest station, and nobody says. Whatever questions he asked, they don't say, why, why do you need that to know that? They
don't that's the biggest security office. Nobody says a word. Bill Harvey was there in Berlin, and he knew what was going on, and he didn't say a damn word to anybody about it except answer the questions. But they were here. They were looking for what Sauy was looking for. He was based in Zurich, right next to Bulin and Vienna like a nine about sixty
minutes or left by air for three weeks in fifty seven. And the thing that I didn't realize when I was first looking at that was that he stopped somewhere else first on his way over there, and a place was called be Route, and that's where he met Kim Philby, and Kim Philby was by this time drunk and going to have to go to Moscow. I skipped a couple of things about guy Purchase and McLain and all these other other guys,
just for time to get to the point you were getting to Oswald. So well, we're first getting to where Oswald is going to defect not too long from now, because you're in fifty seven now, and yeah, we're getting close. We're getting close. Remember what I told you in the beginning of this is that in nineteen fifty eight April Keys Vaulter learns from up Off that there is a kg V Moore highest long Age V Moulla Shy with the tech details of the U two. Right. Okay, now that's old news in
and of itself, but it's the first time. Now, what do you think, so Keith Falter is is case officer? What do you think Keith Falter does? He goes and tells that so Off your rusted division. And what does he do? He tells Tangleton and Angleton guess what what is Hangleton to Angleton tells Sully just like he told everything to Philby of Philby is replaced by Solly. And they knew that in fifty one that they were going to need a replacement for for Philby because he just he was falling apart. Wait
a minute, and here here's where, here's where Oswald comes in. This is the place because when that news travels instantly to Sully. Sully now knows that the Americans know that he's there, that he's they don't you know his name, they don't know who he is, but they know about him. They know exists. Yeah, and he knows that there has to be a
moll hunt and he's he's happy about that because he's the moll hunter. Right now, what does he do well, because this whole thing, the context of this was the Cold War and all this stuff going on, and it was the U two's he needs to take a YouTube fly trap and co plupp it in Moscow while they're doing all this other stuff in Washington at the same time. And he does that. So what he does is it's it's now, it's it's it's late. We're going through fifty eight and it's and we
go into fifty nine. He's got that much time to look for somebody who can who can be you two flypaper. Most of the people in the YouTube program have degrees their engineers and stuff like that. But it just so happens that there was one one guy at one of the three places, you know, Great Britain Insula, Turkey and at two Get Japan were the three YouTube airfields there was a guy over there in marine with the Greek pencil in his
hand, you know, tracking the YouTube stuff over there. That was wee Harvey Hauswalls and he loved he loved the guy was was He was weird in a lot of ways, but he loved his favorite TV show as I Led Three Lives, and he you know, so they set him up, told him what to do. He goes over there, walks in. He knows that if he says he's going to renounce his citizenship that they will never do that. On the first visit, they make you go home and you know,
you know, crew off and come back. But he knew he only had to go there once, and so he knew that when he said I want to renounce my citizenship, that wasn't going to happen. He knew that. But what he did do that was the big deal. While he's in the consular office there, he looks at the walls, which he knows are a bug, and says, I would like to give my I'm going to give my radiar secrets to the to the Soviet Union, and that it was
his act of espionage. Now what that does is the following all these now because all, you have three people who are interested in him, and one's the Marine Corps in the Navy, and the other is going to be the State Department Security Office. Now that one's going to be the FPI, and
it's it got into the newspapers a little bit too. But anyway, they were all sending tons of messages to the CIA, these three FBI, Navy and State Department about the oswall thing, right, And so it was, you know, and I've got I've got a whole list ofm I call it the old for Cruk's there has to have been fifty messages in the first week. You know. It was Halloween day when he walked into that office, and I was just coming up just a few days for us too, right,
it was thirty thirty October nineteen fifty nine. He's in there and he makes that statement, and so here comes all this material now. But the thing is, it doesn't go anywhere except for one person's desk. It goes nowhere to where it's supposed to go. The ordinary distribution of anything like that has anything to do with the Russia would go all over the Soviet Russia Division,
about eleven copies there and many other places. And so on. But she Sully knew this was going to happen because he's the guy putting the mole hunt together. So what he does before Oswald shows up, he has to do this before he shows up with this crazy story, is to tell the Office of Male Logistics. And I wrote this piece of it back in Oswald the CIA, right, and Malcolm Blunt and I worked on it for years
afterwards. Anyway, he goes in and he gets a hold of the Office of me Logistics and the Record's Integration Division and tells them all all messages from other government agencies to the CIA will not go anywhere except Bruce all is best. So by the time Oswald goes up there, that was already laid out. It had to be otherwise it wouldn't have work, the whole scheme of the work. So he's the one who put Oswald over there, okay.
And he used Oswald as a as a means as being a you know, yeah, well we could we could use words, you know, like flies attracted to ship, but we'll just say, you know, fly paper, which is what he was. And so this is how it got started with Oswald. And Oswald was recruited by the Ukrainian KGP. I found it laying wide open in the files, and to this day people still don't know that. They have no idea about it. It's in my book. It's chapter
I think it's chapter three, uh and so. And one of the reasons why there wasn't a lot of know it's about it or interested because it was after the Sense Select Committee, in the Health Selectrimittee. Okay, it was.
It was not until nineteen eighty one that a guy named Papushin defected to the CIA and he was working with the the people at the KGB Higher School of Counterintelligence in Minsk where Oswald was okay, and he was being routinely debriefed by those guys and I and I have all that stuff in the book and it sent an appendix and so on. So if you want to read, uh, you know what Oswald was doing there, you need to read that chapter in the book. But that's that's where Oswald gets his first and his
mind is really lucky break this was great news for him. Well, let me ask you this really quickly. Does this relate to anybody else like Webster? I mean, obviously they wouldn't have just deployed to Oswald. They deployed them. Okay, so this is there. There are about four or five other people who will go at the same time and come back at the same time. Right, It's called flooding the zone. Right. The Oswald doesn't even look like he's important. Well, look at flooding the zone. Perfect,
fine, NFL. You don't send one receiver to the area. You send three, and that way you've got a choice of who you can throw to and they don't know who to cover. Okay. The one who's going to catch the ball is like you know, just moves it around anything,
no way, you know, they get on the road of him. And that's so that's what they were doing, was we were decoys, right, Okay, So that Bill tier and I have worked for years on this and he has all that information and so do I. So it's you know, I'm glad you asked the question, but that's the answer is pretty simple. Okay, No, fair enough. I wanted to just make sure that I'm understanding this, because, like I said, I wouldn't have deployed one guy
to do this. I would have sent a bunch if I was planning it. And they go and that's what they did. All right, and that's how we make sense out of that. Now. The only other weird question here is what level of knowledge does Oswald have though realistically, because is he actually an asset or is he actually a decoy? Because honestly, as a radar guy, right, he knows about how high they fly, he knows about how they behave, Okay, but does he know the technical things that
you know are supposedly doesn't matter? And he does tell them everything, okay, and more, everything about his life, even the funny stuff you know, with the bars and stuff in in Japan. All right, so he tells. But that's not the point of him going there, Okay. The point is to draw all these American intelligence services to put what they know on the record so Bruce Ellie can watch it and get away with this thing. Sound. When you have a guy that's that high, it changes everything and
it takes a lot of getting used to. I'm gonna tell you every time, I mean, who ever since said the book came in and I didn't have time really to follow the leaves, like the McCord stuff and all the everything he did for the k g B is great, and there's more stuff. It turns out I guess I might as well say it on your show. Uh in In in the update of this book gets who else he is? And I scored for he escorts Oswald? He he has scores Oswald over
there. He's the one who helps him get the quickie thing, the quickie visa. He shows up when when when Oswald gets off the boat in the arm goes on Southampton, and so it's McCord is there. He's not talking to him, I guarantee you that. But he's got he's got a bunch of people along the way. And that's another thing. We've got all the records on it. We've got his boots on the ground. So so there
you go. You've got two. You've got two things. Now you've got you've got McCourt has to has to take care of Everybdella Smith to get him back there for the you know, for the three musket terers, so they
can take care of what Khrushoff wants them to do. And then the next thing that has to happen is we've got to send Oswall over there, and they got to do it fast, well, the fastest way, and there are in he'll think he is fairly fast way but it doesn't have to be, you know, it depends on if it's businesses that are going to give good stuff to the Soviet Union, then somebody in Muscle says, yeah, let him in fast. Well, if the Soviet Union says let him in,
it's over, it's it's instant. And because it's Bruce Sulley who work is working for my Skelle, of course they get him in fast, right. So this exans the blank that everybody was drawing for years regarding how in the world did this kid figure out how to get there because he doesn't go the standard route and nobody ever went the route. And I guess who's on that same route, but Gordon. There you go. The court has two
jobs. One job of his was to be the deputy chief of this Security Research Staff, which technically is just a buzz sully, but half the time he's supposed to be TDY in Eastern Europe, he's over there all the time. In Berlin, he's got a cover. He's a military he's a military major. As a cover. In Berlin, they didn't go over there, and that's where the spies meet, and so he can meet with with his spies easily there anyway, there's there's so much more to say about this.
Okay, so much more, but we I think that rather than get swamp your audience with too much information, I think that's that's enough to lay out. You know, if either you're interested or you're not interested in this stuff, and if you do not understand why, because a lot of people have there, it's like they're they got their criminal mustard with the wrench in the library and that's it. I understand that. But we need to put this
in. But we need to put this in context because by the time Francis Gary Powers goes down, right, you're talking about later, yes, May of sixty, I think, right. So if you have him going down in May of sixty, Oswald is there, He's immense by the uh, these other defectors are elsewhere. But meanwhile, this is what everybody's looking at, is the you know, they are just something. They're arguing about that and it's over. It's that's our seventy one they're get they're putting stuff up
outer space and stuff. This is the this is like, uh, you know, a non thing because uh, they know now what was going on. They were looking for some specific things and the way to shoot it down is like it's like the old way that they brought were brought planes down in World War Two was slack, right, They didn't allamis well it could get
through it back in nineteen, you know, forty forty three. But if you've ever seen a movie, you know what, they show all these black things going poof, poof, poof everywhere, and they they hurt the planes and sometimes they got to bring them down. And that's how Sully and met up with is the Russian buddies all the time on those on those uh what do you call them? A little little air plate places where if your airplane gets gets top up pretty bad, you've got to land and get another one.
So yeah, that's eventually they they were able to hit it because they flew the same track again, right, so once you've got the track, then they know where to put a lot of flack up there. But they didn't. They didn't get any kind of direct hit to blow it up. The guy would flack so he was able to come down. You know, it wasn't a big deal. See everybody is still talking about that. I was looking at the whope before and it went on for like one hundred things,
and like one day, everybody's talking about it. And ernestied Avich was a nice guy, you know, he knew. But I think Ernest's got the same problem a lot of people do. He's got to be careful what he says, because that's the same thing that happened to Philby. Even after he got over there, they didn't He wrote a book and did stuff, and they they didn't want to publish it, and then they did, and
then they take a lot of stuff out of it. Anyway, I very rarely say anything all that for him, But when I saw Ernest was there and everybody was talking about it, I put a little two cents and I said, they're Ernest and everybody else was interested. By the way, uh, the they were talking about the you two was shot down because they found
out from Oswald about it. And I said, by the way, the Soviet Union learned in one person, in particular Cosset of the YouTube details technical details in nineteen fifty seven, and it's been lying in the open, unrebacked all these years. And that was it. That was the only thing I said, well, and nobody said a word well in fairness. Days later, ern Peterovid said thank you, thank you, John Newman, and that
was it. Yeah, because well, look, Ernst, all right, let's be fair to doctor titbit's okay because at that time he's a student. Okay, he's uh, he's meeting Oswald and so on and so forth. And to this day I would contend that he still must be careful with what he says exactly hens you know. So remember this is the guy who's in Belarus. Okay, I mean, you know, that's what I didn't hold
it. That's why I think it's very clear. Uh. And so he's decided what's safe and what is safe, and then she should do that, right, Yeah, And so he's allowed to tell a story, the part of the story that he thinks it's safe for him, and you know, and and do well. But he's the only person who answered me because he knew what I'm saying is true. But other people were scared of me because they don't find this stuff right, and they shouldn't be scared, you know.
And I was one of the first people say, look, I screwed up on his Angleton mol Hunt thing. You know, when you when you find a mistake, this is like you know, the regular investigation, you know, and in a murder case or whatever, or I don't care whether
it's it's you know, astrophysics or chemistry. It takes time after time after time to you start looking at stuff and they and you make a lot of assumptions and mistakes that aren't right, and then you start washing them out, and eventually, when you correct for those mistakes, you end up in the
right place, which which always right. Which, by the way, Look, my contention for a very long time has been and everybody is so married to their own you know, previous conclusions, Okay, that they don't ever do what you're saying right now, they don't, all right. They I make the joke that it's like going home with the ugly woman from the bar because you were drinking that night and you wake up you realize who you woke up next to, but you don't admit it. You still tell your friends.
Yeah, that's pretty that's pretty good. I have something a little lighter than I call it a daily plaza water cooler. Okay, but but either way, the the the idea stands right, it's they're married to that, and that's it. That's why a reevaluation needs to be done. I've encouraged more than one person to go back and say, look, you know, please, by all means, go back and look at this again, because I guarantee that we you can see more now, Uh what I did you
see? Because the last thing I did was the update on volume Uh no, actually it wasn't not on any of the volumes. It was an update on on the case. And I put a little new chapter at the end, and it was all about angles, and some of that was right and some of it was silly. But anyway, I decided that was it. I'm getting out of the JAF thing altogether. And so I took a six year vacation doing the the Yo Good mysticism. That was my vacation, right,
and I had learned a lot of stuff. I did three languages, you know, all kinds of coptic and and you know things. But it was a lot of fun and learned a lot about it. Back into the case by my wife and and and another person who was a friend of mine, and I warned them, I said, look, don't ask me to go back to it. You didn't like it because I didn't spend time with my kids and you guys, are you sure you want me to do this?
And they said, yeah, we want you to do it. I said, okay, but that's not going to be one book until it's over. I don't care whether it's one book or fifty books, you know. And so I just took the walked into the restaurant and I grabbed the tablecloth and I ripped it with all the dishes and everything on the floor, and started all over again in twenty ten. Well, it's a smart thing to do, considering all of what's been released. There's a lot more there now
that didn't used to be. This is the thing again. I've heard this speech from a couple of people, and I shake my head of like, well, I already learned all I needed to learn. And I try and find out where that timeline is. They stop RRB time and I go, oh, what are you doing? There is so much more that has come up here, actually, but actually it isn't significant. Really, I've been watching it all and looking at it half the time. The reaction that weren't
there in the six million pages. And the other thing is, if you haven't read those six million pages, how the hell can you understand what's putting being put out now. So the thing used to go do your homework where you need to start, start from the start and do your job, all up your fleas, get your stubby pencil out and get the work. And people just want it to be easy, and it's not easy. This is
an espionage and counter espionage. It's all lies, which is why you have to have not one, but two, maybe three independent sources that give you the same answer, or you don't go with it. Well, and here's that's the standard. Most people don't do, but it is a standard in the law. Absolutely. Look, you got to have corroboration and you can't just go with the one you know. That's the other thing is oh I've got this one story this way. Yeah, that's no good. Look.
The other interesting part of this is it does not necessarily mean that Oswald is well read into all this stuff. Either. He could be useful and not necessarily know all of what he's being used for. I mean that's the case in a lot of these cases. Yes or no, Yeah it is, so you know that that's the other. So when they write these you know long things about who he was and what he knew, And I find it interesting because they haven't even looked at any of this other material that shows him
being used. They didn't look at you know, even the the oddity of the uh, what is it? The uh it's it becomes isolator. But it was imports and immigration and all that. Having looked into him and all that, they don't even know that part of it. You know. So when when you don't know that, you don't know all of what was you know, turned over, what surveillance was on him, You don't know exactly,
So that means you know nothing. Still again with that blank spot, when when I'm talking about here where it's like, well, gee, for some reason he gets from here to here, and nobody can quite figure out how it is he learned how to get into the Soviet Union. That quickly you take a look at the you know, the alleged what the suicide attempt and all this other stuff. If you now put this in proper context,
it looks to me like somebody told him. Look if all he was told is that you got to get in there and you got to stay there. This is how it works. If you don't, you're gonna get turned down the first time. But you can't be turned down that now begins to make
more sense. Okay, the fact that he's aloof most of the time begins to make more sense because his knowledge was only up to a certain point and it wasn't actually there for the purpose everybody thinks it was there for if it's there, and he's really just a decoy, and I do mean a sophisticated decoy, not just you know, a duck shaped thing, but one the quacks and does a few other things. Okay, Well, it ran time and and that's when they they actually got a message to him when it was
time to come home. And that's a whole other thing I've written about two or three or four times, and it's it's been buried. The the actually the the House, the Select Committee went along with a little lie that they knew because they were told it's sources and methods, and we had clandestine sources in there, we who they could get message to Oswald. And it was time for him to come home, and he did. It took a long time, but it was it was played out. That whole thing was played
out. Uh, and it was time for him to come home and and he did. Now and then and then and then here's the thing right, so you but you fast forward to Mexico City and here's the guy who said he missed the bowling alleys and everything. He just had to come home because it wasn't so good. And then he goes back to the Mexicoscuse. He says, I'm going to detect to the Soviet Union again, and I need
to go through uh Culba by the way and all the way. He even though his passport said it was illegal to go there, but yeah, I said it was going to do. So. You could not have a more threatening profile than the two time comedy guy going back again right at this particular point in time, that whole thing with what he was supposed to do, and it failed. The Mexicos anything did not work right, and so they had to they had to improvise by going on the phone. And that's where
the impostor was. Osmond was there, but there was also an impostor because the impostor did not know what was going on inside of the consulate and had to make some some stuff up. You know, we we were through the whole hour and I had I had a bunch of stuff I was going to do. The whole arm and eddit thing for you, which is my latest thing I'm going to do with the cane on my current feel for the assassination
itself. But that's going to have to wait till the cane. Oh look, that's that's fine, unless you know you have time to return again before then. I'll be more than happy, because I mean, I'm I would love to go through it again. I have one last contextual question, though, which is really weird, uh, because I remember seeing you do a presentation on this a long time ago and I went looking at it and I
went, I was astounded that this happened. But you know, Jajegar Hoover has an alert up on his name Oswald's name up to a certain point and then drops it. And this is when, yeah, I do know, when the like everything else that like that. Yeah. Well, but that's the bizarre thing to me because look, Hoover already doesn't seem to according to his own notes and things like this, he doesn't trust what the CIA is telling him about anything, including Mexico City. Okay, from what I can
tell all right now, obviously I haven't seen all of Hoover's records. Nobody has, but uh, you know what I mean, the thing is that it's so bizarre to me that the FBI seems to collaborate here. I mean, they're they're literally dropping the alert. They're turning around. It's not whoever. He was so pissed off after the assassination. He really smelled he wasn't
in one and he he didn't like that. But he could see it happening because he had all that stuff that he knew that was going on in New Orleans, right, and he would send these little hit memorandum into this to the CIA, right to the director. But look, there were not And that's one thing he hit on right, which was that the flashing red lights were turned off in the FBI, but they were turned off in the CIA by suppression of all the stuff that Oswald had done since he'd come back.
And then there are there are six six whole groups of things that happened during those six weeks, six different things, you know, like Taylor gutting the withdrawal plan and and uh and and replacing it without playing thirty four a full this intervention of Vietnam secretly behind Mcnamerica's back and Kennedy's back, so they did not know and then he's killed, and of course that's what they want to
do anyway. So there's it's not just one thing. There is a confluence of things, things suppressed and things that were done going way back to sixty one. By the way, in terms of the shy OP, they wanted to do you know what that stands for, right, the single Integrated Operational Plan for nuclear warfare, and the Joint Chiefs were all about doing that.
They wanted to blow the Pogis out of the They didn't realize it would be the planet, but they're thinking just about Russia and China and a few other communist countries playing you know, three hydrogs and bombs on every single target, just to make sure that they could you know, what happened. They had
no idea. Well you can hear this nothing, Yeah, you can hear this now on some of the tapes from the Kennedy Library where they're having the discussions about the possibility of winning in a first strike scenario and all that. So you can observe in that time period exactly what's happening as far as what's on their minds. That's what they were trying to push for, right, So from the very first, even during the Bay of Pigs, it wasn't just the Bay of Pigs, it was also Laos. They wanted to go
into the war in three places. It didn't enough troops to do that. So why would they do that? And then it include Berlin. Why would they say they could fight in Vietnam, Berlin, and Cuba all at the same time. And there's a real simple answer. They intend to use ground forces, use nuclear weapons. That's it. That's the that's the bizarre thing. Because I pointed this out many times. I always say this that look, it wasn't just about being you know because people of Vietnam. Yes,
that is important, but it's Vietnam. It's the Cold War, but it's the Cold War war, right, And those three pressure points that you just mentioned, those are the things I bring up is, look, we we came nearly to blows because of actions of certain people right there on the ground in Germany. Forget about you know what was going on in Cuba. In Germany, Laos they were pushing for they were pushing for this conflict between East
and West Germany. Okay, you end up with the wall there, but there was this possibility of a real world military conflict right there, right, How can you solve this, you know, in three different locations simultaneously. Oh, you just gave the answer, yea, you know, So that's it. And there was the discussions about what to do with Vietnam as well. But I mean, that was the plan for the future. That was the thing that became drawn out longer and so on and so forth, and
to me is one of the major criminal operations of the twentieth century. But he begged LBJ, please, please, please, mister President, allow us to use tactical nuclear weapons. And LBJ one of the few things he did that was good was said no, fuck all right, one of the few times that he didn't just do basically as directed. But that was even a step too far for him. And again that's saying something for LBJ. Uh. But but anyway, for you guys listening, here's the thing. I'm
out of time with doctor Newman, but you're not. You can go over to JFK J M n Okay m as in Mary n as in Newman. There you go JM n Okay so JFK JM n dot com and there's the bookstore over there. You'll see the four volumes you'll also see that other volume that was written on his vacation from the JFK case as well, in addition to Oswald and the Cia, and of course JFK and Vietnam, which again is uh, practically one of my uh, one of my standard volumes.
Almost biblical text to me when it comes to this, Okay, remember that you need to get the second edition, yes that, because the second edition has all the cool stuff in it that happened to me. Well, the second edition has that. But but also I would say the updated Oswald and the CIA is not a bad idea either if you have the old one, just saying, just saying, because it was much improved in the re release, okay, and there are many improvements in it. But anyways, definitely
an excellent volume. And then this we were talking about mainly the fourth volume tonight, which is uncovering Popov's Mole again, and that is the fourth volume. The other three as follows into the Storm is volume three, Countdown to Darkness as volume two and where angels tread lightly now I'm reading it, so I did get it right the first time, which is volume one, okay, and all of them are not even the complete works, as they're going
to be, because volume five is coming, you said in January. Well, no, it's just I usually release a digital version along with the soft cover, and I decided not to do that on this occasion because I knew that we hadn't followed up so these lead like on the Court for example, and uh we I didn't want to hold it to myself for another whole year.
I wanted to announce what we found out and because it changes everything, and I thought, maybe, you know, it would be cool because some some cool researchers would would jump on you know there and and but everybody's scared of this, and so that hasn't happened. Anyway. I'm going to put out the digital version, but the digital version will be an update. It
will be a revised edition. It'll keep all the same stuff that's there, but you're going to learn all about, like I said, the cord and and some other things, and a lot more detail and a lot more detail because the higher you fly and then you go down into the trees more often, then you have this synergy of high altitude and then low altitude. And that's you know it's going to be. It's going to be an improvement. And then I've got Army Geddon, which is now going to be two volumes
instead of one. It won't be different numbers, it will be you know, a Part A and Part two, Part one and through whatever. Right, and then I've got to do the final one on the Kennedy assassination, and then probably an afterward volume on the on all of the investigations. And then I have a couple more things I need to do on Martin Luther King. I've got a Martin Luther King book gonna come out pretty soon next year,
and and so on. So that's why I told you I'm very busy, right, I just try and and stay healthy and keep my mind fine, because it's easy, you know, to get old fast and and and lose your your your edge. Well look you're you're yeah, you're not losing your edge though. I mean, I've been reading your stuff for thirty years now I think about and no edge lost at all. As a matter of
fact, it's simply gotten sharper as time has gone on. So I wonder if you're going to have to do a little connective tissue in that afterward volume related to the fact that, because you know, McCord's a familiar name. I've even got his book behind me over here, I think about is I've got to it doesn't say much no matter of fact, some other people wrote a little more about McCord and his suspicious activity connected to Watergate, which you know, by the way, I mean, I can give you my whole
view on that and about two sentences if you like. I feel like Nixon was actually set up by the CIA directly. But anyway, that's the way I see it. Okay, maybe I'm wrong, but I got to tell you when I look at what is its secret agenda, I think is the name of that that one book from some years ago, and a bunch of yeah, ogan, right, and a lot of material that I've just you
know, stumbled across. Since I gotta tell you, I I my conclusion gets stronger as I go that that that was intentionally done to President Nixon, who, by the way, is probably you know, one of the most maligned characters possible. And meanwhile, even though yeah, no, he wasn't clean, but I don't think he was as dirty as he could have been, or as dirty as a lot of people think he was. In Moscow, this is true. This is true. But at the same time,
I think it's his own people that you know, knee capt him. Maybe it's just me. Maybe it's just me, but it just you know, that is the guy who broke in. Yes, right, there is a Democratic National Ecords. There was nothing there, they were gone. Why would he break in the second time? Yeah, well, why would he break in the second time to get caught? John? Yes? But he also said when they asked him, yes, why did you do that? He said, because I thought I was going to find a mole m. That's
true. And what's weird about that again is that you know, this is also the guy who probably put the tape back up to you know, this is not I I found that it just really quickly quick just random commentary about this. Did you see that recent dramatization where they had Woody Harrison playing e Howard Hunt. No, I didn't watch that one. What I watched was a Spy Amongst Friends. It's five episodes of the Philby thing. It was
really cool. I watched that. Okay, No, I just thought, I thought, I know what you're talking about it, and I just didn't.
I thought, no, I'm tired of water. But look, it was You know why it was entertaining to me is because I actually, uh, I actually met one of those guys once a while ago when he was doing a radio show, uh in DC there, and I found the dramatization the guy who played him to do it just perfectly, the strangeness of that individual, not Woody Harrison playing the Howard Hunt, but the other guy in that in that story. Anyway, we'll leave it at that, John.
It was. It really was. It was almost as if I was meeting the guy again watching him on the screen. It was perfect, you know, for the guy who used to have his own radio show there. It was successful for a little bit in the conservative radio business. I don't know if you remember that, But anyway, I Howard Hunt interesting figure. Who knows. Maybe that'll have to figure into one of your volumes upcoming. But it's you know, again, are we getting closer to understanding what happened?
Maybe we're getting a lot closer to understanding the historical figure that is Lee Harvey Oswald in some of the pool he was swimming in because apparently there's a few things to still be learned, and some of this stuff was laying wide open in the documents as you said, and it's just it's remarkable. That's I mean, I'm I'm I'm a bit stunned. I got to go back over
this stuff, and I hope you guys have gotten an idea. So one more time, I'll just tell you Uncovering Popov's Mole, the Assassination to President Kennedy, Volume four, Uh, Doctor John Newman and again JFK all right, JM N all right, JMN Mary Nancy or m Newman? Okay, Mary Newman like that, JMN so JFKJMN dot com. That's the website to go to the bookstore. Is there also available on Amazon, et cetera, et cetera. So, and highly recommend all of his work and the stuff
that's going to come out this coming year. I have no idea what you're going to write about, doctor King, but I can't wait to see it. And I want to thank you for joining us tonight, my pleasure, Thanks for inviting me on. Absolutely just stick around, and I'll say goodbye to you guys by telling you that I'm merely O'Kelly and all of you are indeed the effect tonight