The Chilly Effect is sponsored by Wallstreet Window dot Com and listeners like you and now and now rated and Omdia check oh Lly January eleven, twenty twenty four. Allegedly according to that thing we call a calendar, I'm really glad I'm not tripping over it and saying twenty twenty three. Tune in next week for that. Anyway, it is Thursday, and I have with me Mike Swanson as well as Carmine Savastano. Now Mike Swanson, we well know is the
guy behind Wall Street Window dot com. Be in the no go to Wallstreet window dot com. It is not just about Wall Street. He has changed up his emails okay, so you only get like a weekly email now uh, and other things are changing over at Wallstreet Window dot com. Urge you to check that out, as well as the writings by Mike Swanson. Two highly recommended books, although he's written several, including a book about the local history of Daniel, Virginia. Now I have not read the tirety of that
book, but I highly recommend The War State. I highly recommend the first in a series of books on the Vietnam War. Why the Vietnam War? And We talked about that in depth a couple of weeks ago in the propaganda film. That reminded me of his book title, although it's got nothing to do with the book title. Anyway, I highly recommend those books. You see him in the Sidebarochelly dot com the Red Book there with Ike on the
cover giving the farewell address. The war state definitely required reading as far as I'm concerned, and why the Vietnam War. I'm anxiously awaiting the next volume in that set, and Mike said he'll be working on it during the course of this year, so maybe by the time we get back around a JFK conference time, which I've been invited to go back at MC again. So I don't know what's gonna happen next year, but maybe Michaell be there,
maybe some of you will come along. We'll see what happens, but hopefully we'll hear a lot more about the book as the year progresses. Anyway, Mike's with us and Carmin Savastano. Okay, the author of Two Princes and a King. Now that book. I was talking about moving around books on my shelf just yesterday. That was one of the books I was moving around I actually have a physical copy of that one, and I recommend that book
as well. He also authored a book called Human time Bomb I believe is the title or the main title of it, and not saying that I don't have disputes about that book, but anyway, maybe we'll get into that this year with Carmine and discuss the differing views that one might have about human nature. Although he is absolutely right about certain things in that book, maybe not
everything, but I would everything. Yeah, there you go. But if you check out the stuff at teapok tp aak dot com, you know what, You're gonna find a lot of correct information, a lot of interesting stuff, and a lot about the files that keep getting dumped out there. Oh that might be a topic of discussion for tonight. Anyway, This is going to be a JFK centric sort of show because well, we're gonna have to talk about some Cold War stuff here too, and the era in which there
were defectors, et cetera, et cetera. But let's start off with everybody and see how they're doing. First, Mike, how you doing tonight? Man? I'll doing great. Great to talk about that y'all tonight. Yeah, Look, and you've sent me a couple of emails over the past couple of days and an area of interest. Maybe you want to explain that to people what it is you're looking at and why, because you're you're starting to
look at some HSCA testimony interesting figure. I was just briefly running over an audio recording from the piece of testimony that you sent me, a transcript of which was initially I think written out by Deborah Conway from JFK Lancer. But it's, you know, a guy that's not often mentioned anywhere or studied by a lot of people, a guy named Lipsey, who was an important figure, who was actually president at the autopsy, who was actually present for a
bunch of pivotal events surrounding the assassination of John F. Kennedy. So what got you interested in Lipsey's testimony in nineteen seventy eight? I think it was January seventy eight, if my memory serves me. I now don't have it in front of me. What caught your interest about this? And why is
this guy's testimony interesting to you? If you don't mind, Well, I've never heard of him before you had, But I'm currently reading a new book that came out just Brand New released a couple of weeks ago, call it Undercover of Night, written by someone named Sean Fetter f E. T Er. It's a two volume book and it purports to have solved this assassination a conspiracy, blames it on the Air Force and Lynnon Johnson. And apparently Fatter
was associated with David Lifton. He was a research assistant of his in the nineteen eighties and they had a lot of disagreements with him, and now he's come out with this book and his thesis is that the I'm not saying I agree with it, but his thesis is that the body was altered inside Air Force one and he's figured out where and then but not where David Lifting says
it was. He has afer location and he part of his evidence, he cites this Richard Lipsey's testimony before the HSCA, And that's the last chapter I'd read in the book. So I went to go and look at the testimony itself, and you actually send to me this YouTube video. It was very brilliant, actually helpful because enabled me to double check what I was seeing elsewhere. So what Fatter had a couple things that he interprets Lipsey as saying that
I wasn't able to find myself. But when I read the Lipsy testimony, and I was reading a transcript that Deborah Conway apparently made, and I emailed that to you, and then I couldn't find what Fetter was saying in that. And then I went to the Mary Farrell website and got a staff a memo describing the interview, which was consistent with the Deborah Conway transcript. And then you sent me an audio tape that's on YouTube, which is consistent with
the Deborah Conway transcript. So one of the little details that Fetter says is that this Lipsey, It's really an interesting story. So he was on the Honor Guard attachment in the DC area, and he had a superior officer who was a general, and the two of them were with the body once it arrived in Washington and accompanied the body to the autopsy right and the officer told
him stay with the body, and he did the only times. So he was in the autopsy room watching it, and once or twice he left the room, and when he did, a superior officer would take his place. So they had constant watch over the body and their job became to help organize the funeral and so forth. But the testamenty was mostly about the autopsy. Now, the Federal book had one little thing where it said that General Wheeler, who was the Army chief of Staff at some point called a superior officer,
and I couldn't find that yet in the testimony. And then some other little detail. But anyway, the story itself is really fascinating. So one little detail that Lipsy says is that when he heard about the assassination, uh, him and his superior officer were told that the autopsy would be carried out in Dallas. I mean this was you know, within the first hour.
And then that then they were given orders and told he doesn't say who they came from, but they were told that the autopsy would take place in Bethesda. So that's interesting in itself. So you know, at some point it means it was understood it would be in Dallas, and that was decision was made, you know, by someone to change that, uh and and take you know, make the body, take the bide and do the autopsy,
you know, right. And you know, it's interesting. It's interesting because trying to study what happened with the Joint Services casket team and how that evolved, because eventually there is a bunch of different military guys from all the services carrying the casket and you see that later in the funeral footage. But the evolution to get to that point, there was a bunch of things that went on to get there. At certain points, some people in the military were
told that the autopsy might occur well to read. At some points they were told it was going to occur at Bethesda. At other points they were told it was going to occur in Dallas. And I think it's all a symptom of confusion. I think they didn't know what was exactly going to happen. I mean, if this guy's correct, he knew it was happening in Bethesda. I mean, unless he's wrong. Yeah, well, they would be the ones that, you know, we're told to him. Yeah, I'm
just saying that. In general, though, there were people that should have been in the know that over the years when I've studied this, were given different ideas about what was going to happen until it was finally settled upon that it was going to occur at Now it is possible that there were people that never heard anything different except that and you know, as you well know,
with the military, sometimes people are giving heads up about certain things. Get ready because this is going to happen, and things change along the way, and that happens with deployments and everything else. This was, you know, again a real time situation you had, you know, something quite unexpected as far as you know, say, your joint services casket team was aware was going to happen. But eventually they would end up with the responsibility. I
mean that was a certainty. Eventually the body would be returned to DC. There would need to be arrangements made. And of course we've also gone through the whole thing from not only Jackie's testimony, which you know was was given later to people privately and stuff like that about the arrangements she made. There was things given to the media about how she'd you know, designed the funeral, even getting the catafalct that Lincoln was on, all that kind of stuff.
Right, So all these details have come together over the years, and some people have reinterpreted them. And look, I'm trying to be generous here with this guy who was a research assistant to Lift and which has created an interesting deluge of stuff ever since he died. But even before that, to be honest with you, the generation before ours, Mike that was involved in research. You know, when you and I were still in high school.
But these guys might have been in their thirties and they were getting involved in it. Quite frankly, a lot of them were first moved, you know, like a lot of people in our generation were moved by JFK. The film, a lot of people had been moved by things previous to that, and one of them was Believe It or Not. The release of Best Evidence,
the book itself. You'll hear it cited by people about ten or fifteen years older than us all the time as the thing that got them thinking, that got them involved in Maybe there's another answer here, maybe there's something else. It's not Mark Lane that stood out to them as he would have in the sixties and seventies. It's the nineteen eighty nineteen eighty three, the first couple of printings of Best Evidence, which I think was in eighty and eighty
one and eighty three. Don't quote me on that, I could be off a little bit, but somewhere in that area. That's when that book was very popular and was published in various forms. Eventually it was published with illustrations. I got to say, like, I have a bias, you know about the book. I've never read the book, and I mean i've lettered Doug Horn stuff. But my dad was a doctor and he was also in the army and he was a colonel, and he's passed since passed away.
But for two or three years we're both reading this Kenny assassination stuff. And he he did he did surgery, and he basically told me that he thought the thesis of the idea of altering by older altering the wounds in order to
fool the tops of doctors. He just thought it was preposterous, wet because here's the thing between let me that said though, yeah, so so that made me, you know, he's just like, well the Batopes was botched and messed up, and they were you know, these guys burned their notes and they were told to do stuff, and they're going to follow orders and you don't need to fool you know, exactly all that said. Though,
speaking with another researcher, Loose really retired from his stuff. But Henry Hurt lives around here and he's ever we had a discussion about it and Basically I can see why they could have done two autopsies, the first one to see what really happened, and then the second one that is the one on the record. You're a one off the record and then one on the record, which exactly which what I understand I need to read it is sort of what
it's something closer to what doug Horn is arguing. But the idea that they told the people, that's just well. That's why I want to provide some context here for this, because from nineteen eighty to eighty eight, when you have the Nova special that comes out and it is and David Lifting is heavily
involved in it, this is where this idea body alteration becomes popularized. Now ever after what has happened here is that people have run with his body altered concept where either it was altered on its way to DC or it was altered in DC. Doug Horn feels as though the autopsy began before because basically there were surgery done to create a certain look. The brain was even removed,
et cetera, et cetera. All this stuff. When you run it by, like you said, you know your dad, you run it by a doctor, you run it by certain people, they look at you like you're crazy. But in the eighties, okay, a lot of this information was not widely available, and it was meant to be an explanation, like how it is that you could fit together the Dallas doctors telling a different story from what is laid out in the autopsy, etc. Yeah, Doug Horn told
I mean, I've met him a couple of times. Yeah, he told me a story that I can't remember as Bosworth Humes of one of the two he questioned him with the youth part of the ARV, and he questioned him with a I can't remember the guy's name, but another AARB member. And when it was over, they took it's either Humes or Boswell. One of
the two autopsy doctors escorted him out of the room. You know, they're deposing him in giving it cat taking his deposition, took him to an elevator, and as he got an elevator, he turned around and laughed at him. He said, okay, boys, you'll figure it out now. Yeah. Jeremy Gunn would have been the other right right, Yeah, Yeah, that's kind of mind. That's kind of what I think. They just gotta They've said so many different contradictory things and changed either the draft report and did
multiple autops reports. It's just a complete total mess. So yeah, laugh, figure it out. I just wanted a couple things real quick. Yeah, One to confirm what you guys were saying about that it was ultimately Jackie
and Bobby that made the decision to moved it. Well, Jackie made the decisions that Bobby supported it because later in one of the articles I put out, we have the documents of Macone's notes because Bobby called macoone to come meet with him, right and you know, handle the body and swear in LBJ and you know, do all the things of state that still needed to be done even though that was going on. And when you really look at it, I mean, I don't think Jackie intended it to be the mess it
was. But if they just would have let Earl Rose do his job, if they just would have conducted the autopsy in Dallas, all this would be much clearer. That's always been my contention is that if they had just allowed it to be handled as a local homicide, as it was legally at the time, Yeah, it would have been presidents you guys. Well, so
this lipsey thing. I kind of the interesting thing. He says, they get him to describe what he saw at the autopsy, you know, the wounds and what the doctors are doing, and he says that there were three entrance wounds, one in the head and one in the neck that he says they concluded was the came out of the throat, and then a wound in the back, not really the back, but the about where the neck in
the back would be. That in the bullet. According to what he says here, that bullet the atops and doctors believed went into Keny's body and never came out. And he says they spent about half the aetops he tried to find it, taking out oregans, looking inside Kennedy to try to find this bullet, and they were convinced it didn't fall out because there was a an exit hole for the bullet and it would have gone far enough in that for
to just pop right out. It didn't make any sense, right, So either way, according to this guy, bullet goes in right, they even stayed in. He didn't day and he claims that they saw three entrance looms. Yeah. See the problem with that is that this guy doesn't realize that the reason for the X ray technicians coming in and out of the room so often is precisely for this reason. You're not going to go digging through the body to go find the bullet until you have an idea where it might be,
and the X ray technicians should be able to find it. Okay, that's the thing. That's why they were doing the X rays and running and developing the film and coming back with it. That's why even though they yeah, they did do the most foolish thing in the world by not bringing him down to the X ray department, decided to bring the portable upstairs. That was nice and blurry. Yeah, so people could argue for the next thirty
forty years. Yeah, they did the crappiest job possible with it, which is really funny and you know, but on the other hand, if all you're doing is looking to just generally locate where the missile is in the body, that should have been adequate. But they couldn't find it that way because guess what, it wasn't there. That was the problem. Even if you have fragments in the skull, Okay, you got fragments in the skull, but they were not finding a hole or even close to a whole missile anywhere
in the body. Okay, and an X ray should have been able to pull that up. But there's a lot of stuff that now goes into the fantastic here when it comes to body alteration, and a lot of this stuff is inspired. Sorry to say, you know, here we go. Everybody wants to know where David Lifton's second book is. I think the first one caused us enough trouble because it created this legend that has ever after been altered.
You know, the alteration on the body alteration has now become an industry onto itself with these guys where it's like David lifting, you had body alteration, right, but he just had the wrong guy doing it. Even people have surmised that the people from the funeral home had done the body alteration, which they would have in order to prepare it for burial. Okay, they would have stitched things together, they would have tried to pull his head back
together and make him presentable. That's something that was done, and we have testimony on that which was taken by certain people. Now, if you want to tell me that photographs were taken after stuff like that was done, there you go. You have a difference in why photographs look weird and everything else. But to try and just make these arguments that somebody surgically altered the body to do what to fool the audience, you know, to fool the official
record. It it becomes problematic. And when you try and explain this to somebody who actually, you know, does this sort of stuff, it's crazy because it becomes you know, it's like, well, if you were to do that sort of surgery, what are they doing it in the cargo hold
of Air Force one? You know, while Jackie said that's what that's what this author is saying, yeah, well that's the other thing is they go into the cargo hold of Air Force one, which believe me, is not going to be the most comfortable place in the world or the best lit okay, or have the facility air tight or anything. You're going to go in there to go do operations, and you've got to sneak the body out of the casket, you know, out out from in front of where Jackie is.
And then some people say, well that was done while LBJ was being sworn in, okay, But either way, you're trying to do an alteration
on the fly on an airplane. I I can't see how this makes a lot of sense, but people will insist that this needed to be done in order to And it's funny because I can even explain to you why they would have had to switch to the caskets, which you know, people get into the caskets, and the confusion with all of that, well, you know, there's a problem with getting that big, old ornamental casket actually through certain doors at Bethesda at the time. So they broke it a little bit too.
I believe in some of the testaments they broke So they caskets, I mean they busted the first one. Yeah, they broke it. And besides that, they're not burying him in that And later it was disposed of by Robert F. Kennedy or by orders of Robert F. Kennedy, and we found out about that years later. Uh. You know, so look, there is a whole strange trail of evidence here, and I think a lot of it was born of people not knowing what to do at the exact moment
things happened. But this idea that there was this you know, Okay, let's recut the body now you know it's well, he this author says that Roy Kellerman is the one that that did the oper the best round with the body of the wounds. I want to see Roy Kellerman's degrees to the listener who is not aware of maybe he didn't have to have a degree the but of the body. Yeah, but to do it directly, but I mean to alter it to where he could fool someone. To do it correctly.
To fool a doctor is a little tough, A little tough of a call, I think, yeah. And the other thing is, uh, you know, Kellerman is the guy who could barely operate a radio sitting in the passenger seat of the limo. By the way, in case listeners don't know who he is. That's the guy who shine on the top of his head becomes a gun in people's blurry Zippruterer films later on. Okay, Roy Kellerman, that's that guy. Okay. I look, I don't want to scoff
because strange things happen in a strange world. But you know, I see people creating scenarios instead of trying to explain the existing evidence for the most part, and that's how I feel about it. But I'd love to see what you track down here regarding Lipsey, because Lipsey was somebody that Lifting used to mention when he did live presentations, and you know, it is part of Lifton's thesis. Although this guy says, well, I've actually got it right,
and that's another thing that happens here. And Doug Horn has a unique perspective, but even he goes into look, I agree that there was body alteration, but I think it happened at a different time, And he talks about Hume's doing it just previous to the autopsy propers starting right in his five
volume set. I don't know what to make of that stuff except to tell you that it has evolved over the years, and it's gotten so crazy that on the anniversary this past year, I ended up on a radio show having to continuously explain how ludicrous it was that, you know, you know, Tippitt's body has switched for Kennedy's. You know, like, because I'm explaining, I'm telling him, Look, you mean to tell me that the previous
surgeries on Kennedy's body are present, because what somebody turned around and put a backscar on tip it as well? You mean to tell me that this is Tippitt's body in the JFK photographs. That's why he doesn't look right. You know, these are the same people that eventually, if you let him go wild enough, we'll tell you that JFK returned to the Oval office as Jimmy Carter. I mean, it's just it's too much, man, it's too
much. And look again, I don't want a disparage guy. And he's really ruthless in his presentation about this book and trying to sell it where it's like everybody else is pretty much stupid. I have the answers here, and he does that every couple of pages, right, And I haven't even read it yet, you know, I'm looking at just the stuff they put out, you know, to to promote the book, and it's like that. So, you know, I don't know what to say it very much.
I'm not going to find anything new about the lips of guy. It just it's new to me, and it's his testimony is interesting to read well, by by all means, study that, Mike, and I'll tell you what else is. While you're listening to audio, I'll give you another suggestion if you want to listen to some interesting audio is Hume's Boswell. And I think maybe even Fink shows up at one point, but I know Humes and Boswell definitely show up to testify to the HSCA, and their audio testimony is remarkable
me in how hostile they were to the medical panel questioning them. It's really funny because by the time you get to the ARRB, they've got a different
attitude. And the way Doug Horn describes them, with the exception of Fink, thinks very strange affected behaviors or exactly what I dealt with when I got a hold of him on an international phone call in like nineteen ninety one, you know, and he was a weird guy, I think, very very much, easily disturbed if you asked him a question, apparently, So the
descriptions that Horn gives a think in that book are totally believable. But the weird journey that Humes had been on, I mean, if you take a look at him going on TV for CBS, right, and what was it sixty seven when they did those the four nights of TV specials, right, you got footage of him on there describing what he did and all that, and he's stepping towing the line he was given instructions. We have memos to
that effect now and all that. But you take a look at that, you take a look at his behavior with the HSCA, and then his behavior with the ARRB, and also the fact that you know allegedly walks away and of course this is off the record, with the elevator conversation and all that. I find all of it rather believable. Actually, this guy kept changing what he was saying and was pretty much performing based on the audience he had in front of him. And when he's in front of the HSCA and guests
seventy eight, he doesn't even care. He's very, very defiant and dismissive of their questions and gets super angry when they start to ask him things like about the adrenal glands, which you know, they weren't supposed to talk about that, right, the Addison's disease and everything. But I mean, you
know, it's it's already fifteen years later. I mean, what good are you going to do protecting you know, Kennedy's privacy regarding adrenal glands at this point, you know, in in the seventies, I don't know, and people still don't know about this testimony. But I assure you. The audio exists, and there's a lot of weird audio connected to those. Again, those tapes that I got in somewhere, like I don't know eighty nine or ninety. I think I got my full set of HSCA tapes. And again
they're not even part of the official record anywhere. They just floated around for a while. So I found it interesting. I just decided to do a search and found that on YouTube, and that does sound exactly like the tape I used to have. I will, however, if you have any questions about that when you go a little further. I have an MP three somewhere I think my own MP three transfer from the tape, So I don't know if my copy will be any different than theirs or whatever, but let me
know if you have any problems there. But their sounds pretty clear and the quality is pretty pretty decent on that YouTube video. So and they actually went to Louisiana, I think, where he had a business to visit with him. I was just going to say, yeah, this is Richard A. Lipsey is the guy we're talking about, right, So he is at the time of JFK's death twenty four he's under Whaley the guy who was the local commander at the autopsy. That's is this the guy who wrote this is the
guy who quoted in the book the author quotes Slipsey's testimony. Oh yeah, yeah, he quotes Lipsey's testimony. Whaley is his commanding officer. Yeah, that was because I remember talking about him when in Two Princes and a King, because everybody I was talking about the mysterious person that was Whaley that was giving orders. But yeah, Lipsy ended up going on to become a very
wealthy man, like he supporting grids chain. Yeah, he served in the US Army well, as you know, twenty four years in the army. But yeah, he went on. He's on the board of Regents for the state for the State of Louisiana of twenty eighteen. Yeah, I mean he couldn't in Congressional District. Yeah, they decided to go and visit him in Louisiana to get his testimony instead of him coming to them in DC. Right,
So that tells you something right there. And in fact, at the very beginning of the tape, they're interrupted by somebody trying to get through to him on a call, and he tells them me, I'm not taking calls right now because I'm recording something and I just I just happened to listen to that like moments before we went to air, because I just took a listen to the quality on that YouTube video. But it is interesting. This guy
is an interesting figure. He definitely would have some things in the know there. But here we go. You have to evaluate what it was he was witnessing. What is his level of expertise and familiarity with what he's looking at regarding the autopsy. I mean, anybody could sit there and watch an autopsy and if they're not familiar with what's going on, they may have no idea why it is they're cutting into the chest, why it is they're doing this
or that. Like I said, does he even mention the fact that they're bringing the X ray technicians in and out of the room and running back and forth and looking at the films, which we know they did, and you know, and and and stuff like that, because that's the search for the bullet. It's not them cutting him up looking forward. He he what I read, he's not really looking at the watching second by second what's going on,
and he's focusing in on you know, I don't think. He says he didn't notice the X rays and you know, and he was eating hamburgers too, right for dinner with other people in there. Well, see, that's why I would take it a lot more seriously. What like say Cybert and O'Neil had to say, because they were there to observe. Okay, it wasn't this. It was his job to stay with the body. Yes, but he wasn't there to take a detailed account of what was going on.
You see what I'm saying. So you got you gotta look at more than one side of this thing. And I'm not scolding you about this, Mike. What I'm doing is this is a problem. I mean this, this is what he said. I'm looking at it right now, Lipsy. This is the HCA report. Is they're just a memo about the interview. Right. He cannot recall the doctor's photographed interior jest. He does not recall when the doctors took the photographs or if they X rayed the lower extremities.
Let Lipsey does recall, he does recall doctors examining X rays. He just doesn't. He just doesn't remember all these details. Well, but that's the thing he's not there. It's fourteen years later too, right, it's fifteen years later, and he's not there to take an account of when they did it, the order it's being done, what's happening exactly, because his responsibilities are going to revolve around what he's part of the he's part of the joint
casket team. Basically, what's going to become that, So he's going to be part of the funeral arrange. It's okay, fine, but that's got nothing to do with keeping an exact account what's going on with the autopsy.
Like you said, he's eating lunch, he's getting you know well, yeah, and you can you can even see in the accounts if you look on because I did while you guys were talking about it, and I just want to see if I can find out any more information about him if you look at his accounts of the day, like it changes from year to year in the newspapers and the description like at one point he's like, well, I'd never seen a dead body before, and another one he said that, you
know, well, he was comfortable dealing with the casket and everything, and another one he said, well I might have been the very last person to touch him before the casket was closed, so you can see as time progresses, Lipsy's almost you know, like I would suppose many people do. You know he tries to reform those memories from decades ago. Well, and as I've said, think it's a different It doesn't get a perfectly exact version each
time. And as I've said on this show numerous times, people's memories are subject to revision. You know. That's the thing like when when Larry was doing that speech at Lancer to keep pointing to it, and he said, you know when you guys are looking for the end all and be all out of a witness and you're taking their story at ninety years old, you know, sixty years later and you're saying, well, that's the definitive version.
You know, you're not being honest with yourself or your readers or anybody else, because there's going to be a lot of things that interceded there. I mean, the information and the massive changes that took place. You want to talk about the X rays, I mean, I'll point to Gerald Custer again, the continuous changes and revision of Gerald Custer's story because he was being inundated by researchers. He was friendly. He was a nice guy, and he would talk to a lot of people who are out there, you know,
trying to support their different conspiracies. And thesis is right, thesises thesis is. I don't know either way, you know what I'm saying, and thank you, But either way, what the point is that now he's got this new information and it gets molded into what he's saying. I mean, the guy literally carried conspiracy books with him to his ARRB testimony. Another thing I believe from from Doug Horn's report about Cheryl Custer. Yeah that's not good.
When you carrying out the conspiracy books, they can recall what your testimony is. Yeah, that's not good, you know. And I'm not saying Listen, I didn't say he did it just to recall of what his testimony. But what I'm sullying, I mean, but when you take a look at the wildly ranging statements that he made about this stuff, you know, he
had his own copy, he made a second copy. He hit him under the sign, but all these different things he said over the years, it's like, you know, either intentionally or unintentionally, the guy was revising his testimony as time went on, due to influences from different people that were contaminating him as a witness. I'm sorry. And then when you got a half a century of contamination, you got a hell of a lot of revision here
in somebody's memories. So you know, again, if you look back at what Hume's had to say when he was under control and he was under obligation to say nothing and even lipsey at the beginning of his interview, it questions them like, look, I remember I signed a piece of paper saying I wasn't going to talk about this for a certain amount of time. Are you guys basically authorized to not have me have a problem over that? You know?
Which sounds like an honest question to ask. Okay, if you signed a non disclosure agreement and your understanding is you're not supposed to disclose, Yeah, that's that's the thing about reading it, and then everyone can listen to it. He comes off as very credible. Yeah, that's the other thing. And look, I'm gonna give you, guys in the show notes, I'll give you the link to this YouTube video that's out there, which I believe is the complete interview. It's an hour and a half long about but
it may be incomplete. It's possible it is. But either way, I'll give you that, the link to the transcript, few other things, you know, for people to look at it for themselves if they want to examine it. But it's a very interesting thing, and you're doing something that a lot of people don't do, and apparently Rob Reiner does not do at all. But you know, go and check the source and you know, from whence the evidence came. Yeah, this would be a good thing to do.
So when somebody mentions testimony, why don't you go look at the testimony for yourself. You know, go ahead and follow the footnotes and see if they are footnotes to nowhere sometimes because they are often. Anyway, I just suggest that no matter what you're reading, whether it's the Warrant Commission or it's the guy's latest book that's the hottest thing or whatever, the definitive answer like
that absolute atrocity they put on Amazon Prime this past year. Anyway, So look, not only this, but we do have a cup oh god, there's this movie, yeah, this documentary that's like we've solved it and they're they're ultimate you know, spoiler here, guys. JFK's body was swapped for JD. Tippetts. And not only that, but JFK actually faked his death according to them, So you know, just saying, uh, it's it's it's rough and getting rougher out there, Carmine. Uh. Anyway, So
Mike, what else that's like? Yeah, like all the worst ideas of those eighties books, right, mixed with the Elvis pretty much. Yeah, like you know, and I'm telling you some of them conclude ultimately that JFK returns as Jimmy Carter. Not kidding. That is just you know, yeah, no, I'm sorry. Yeah, one was a peanut farmer. There's a difference. But they but they will insist they'll look at them. But
you look at the pictures. I'm telling you, it looks like you if he would have aged, he might have looked at Oh god, it hurts my head. But anyway, Mike, anything else you want to talk about regarding this, right? No, So I I'm sorry. I was just gonna say, yeah, we can jump just we can talk about the the DEA stuff because I know we only have so much more time, and then
I can just do the defectors. I gave you the sources so they can check out the articles and yeah, well let's go sure they want to hear about the DEA stuff more. Anyway, Well let's go straight into it, because you know it's funny. I didn't get any backlash or anything from the last time I had you on where we discussed Look, you want to talk about document destruction, Well, here's a huge rash of document destruction that is
absolutely provable, not speculation. You know, Larry and I talked last night about how people have gotten to the point of where, you know, well, if you don't find any of the evidence reliable or credible, what are you working with? Oh, your own idea is very good. That makes it a lot easier, doesn't it. But you know, and I mentioned this about the destruction of documents, where people say, well, you know,
they already destroyed anything of importance. On the one hand, I can kind of go with that, but it doesn't disqualify what's left, you see, It doesn't remove the validity from what is left in the files, what is being released, what is still withheld, and is you know, slowly being leaked out there little by little. It doesn't mean that it's totally useless. We constantly find interesting new information, but are you going to find the
document that says, you know, hey, look here's the solution. No, I get that, but but what government would do that even if they had it? You know. Anyway, but we talked last time about the U I believe it was the last time you were on with me, Carmine about this, and by the way, people have been definitely giving me feedback that we need to continue the myths and uh and get them back out there and redo that, even which uh, which I wouldn't feel right about doing
without you, Carmine, So hopefully you're up for doing that. This year, we'll have to discuss aff air and maybe grab a couple of the new ones. We're gonna have to strategy. We're gonna have to strategize. Yeah, we're gonna have to strategize a bit because there is so much nonsense out
there at this point, you know. I mean, look, we we obviously have we did good work as far as reducing the prior ones that we covered a bunch of, but unfortunately, you know, there's always more and it's not like Judie Baker's gone away just saying so the hydra extent, yeah, we we did. We did sort of prune the hydra. Yeah, that's a good way to look at it, pruning the hydra anyway. But what's interesting here is that I really expected more people to get weird about Well,
you guys are saying they destroyed all their documentary. Yeah they did, and I don't see anybody making a big deal about that except you in your articles. But there's more to this story, so, uh, it's not just about the d I A. And again the references Carmine's articles is stuff at t P a a k dot com. I will definitely have it in the show notes. And let's see if we can get you through this fairly quickly, so we can get done with this in a little over an hour
altogether. Sorry, we spent a lot of time on Lipsey there, but but it is interesting and something that I think if you know, you really care about the you know the facts and the evidence you the listener, I
would say, please, by all means follow up on it. But but there's even more regarding document destruction and maybe some other organizations, some other alphabet portions of the military soup that that that could be involved in document destruction, Is that right, Carmine, Yeah, yeah, And I'm interested just to get also you or the mic you know, of course the audience's feedback, just to see that because I was I I was surprised that, you know,
I found the one document where they just came out and that, Wow, we destroyed everything. You can refer to our NSA secrecy agreement. You can't tell anybody. Oh well, so I thought that, you know, that was going to be I was like, wow, I mean because that and we talked about the timeline. You know, I also did my Lancer speech on it where I talked about you know, I tried to get into more of the nuts and bolts of it, but still there's still an area
of play for some of that. And so I'm going to be putting out another article later this month and you can see it on the Wall Street window and you can see it at my website, and I'm going to put out some of the new documents and information that I found. But essentially I thought that, you know, with Theda, that and like you and I specified, Chuck, we didn't say it was the largest. It was the thus far largest, right, because never underestimate that there could be a larger operation
at work to destroy something. But it is contained only to the one agency. Right now, there's that, But also keep in mind this, Okay, the FBI generates so much or at that time generated so much paper that it is possible that the FBI could have destroyed more documents than the DA had and still yeah, have destroyed all of their archive because of the immensity. You know, I remember somebody making jokes about, you know, if you had to go to the bathroom, you had to fill out a three zero
two report. So there was constant paperwork being generated by the FBI. There could have been tons of stuff destroyed by the FBI, which could be even larger here. I'm not saying it's true, but one of the things that distinguishes this is not only is the agency wide as far as the DA depends, you know, determining at what size wouldn't occurred, but also it's about
one subject, right that I think makes it singularly different. As far as the FBI, oh yeah, they and the CIA just just you know, I mean, space consideration destroyed documents all the time, as far as no longer operational stuff for the forties, old cryptonim materials that no longer were in use, stuff like that, and often they might destroy stuff that's no longer operational, because what are you going to do with intelligence that was gathered in
the nineteen forties, the bits of the nineteen seventies, Why is this stuff even useful? You have a logical argument for we just need to open up some space here, you know, it's an juitization. They really had no other way except just get more space to house more viles, right, so you know at that time it makes some sense. But again to just turn around and pick one subject, not a time period, right exactly, not huge, you know, because just one case in all the cases you might
have been involved in, right, So that's that's the distinction there. But go ahead and tell us about what it is that you learned, you know, in addition to what it was we discussed last time, if you don't mind, sure, So, so we prior to discussed that the da which that organization, the Defense Intelligence Agency, which gathers all the military intelligence in one place, is housed under the ages of the Department of Defense for those
that don't know, So the d IA is essentially a subgroup of the Department of Defense to which all the military intelligence groups are subgroups to the DA. So all that information flows upward to the d D the Joint chiefs, you know, those that sit at the top of everything. So the DA had, you know, stated in that document that we that I offered last show
that it had destroyed every file it posed a by the JFK case. So I sent a letter to the DA's Office of the Inspector General to learn if their position on the Kennedy files being utterly destroyed by the DA staff remains the officials Okay, Unsurprisingly, my registered mail receipt has yet to be returned. Okay, I don't know if I'll ever get a seventure on that one. When when did you send it? By the way, huh when did you send that? I sent that about a month ago, month and a half.
Okay, fair enough, go ahead, Yeah, yeah, so I figure I'll give me a few months. But I just think it's funny that they won't even sign for it, like they received it, right, but you know whatever, so uh so I did. I have remained undeterred as far as trying to seek more details about you know, the DA's destruction of the evidence and how and when the Department of Defense undertook these attacks on the legal record, and like I said, I've been able to find a few
extra things that I'm going to put in the article. But what I want to tell people is is that I've discovered that the Department of Defense was also destroying files regarding the JFK case. And one of the documents I found specifically dates or gives us the date of destruction for Lee Harvey Oswald's files in nineteen seventy three. So trying to get rid of the Bay of Pigs is now no longer an answer to why they were destroying the files. In fact,
we're in the seventies now right the later end. I mean, they are huge at this point. They are over one thousand members. They have gone through five, maybe six directors, and I wonder what the purpose of destroying Lee Harvey Oswald's files would be, Well, it's I think I think there's a lot of possibilities. Seventy three I think is important that year specifically,
because you know, we discussed the range the amount of documents generated. So now we're in the tens of thousands file likely that they're going to have to just try to get rid of this, and that purge is now going on in the d D at large. So, and we've already heard. One of the things I'm going to talk about is because I found an interview with
Blakey where he's complaining about Army intelligence. So, Army Intelligence has destroyed files in the JFK case, the DA has destroyed files in the JFK case, and now the d D is desjoying some of its TROVA files on certain parts
of the JFK case. Well, and to just be specific, look, the Army intelligence files should not be on Lee Harvey Oswald in case somebody thinks, well, they're just destroying all the Oswald files because Army Intelligence shouldn't have stuff on Oswald that should be under o NI, which eventually gets fed to d I A. So what are we talking about here? What Army intelligence files need to be gotten rid of? Right? Yeah? Okay? Well and the DA if it destroyed all of its files, and it certainly destroyed
army files as well, Oh yeah sure sure. But what I'm saying, what are we talking about here? What could they have even been? You know? Is my question? Yeah? Well, and then what I think is interesting about seventy three is that, Okay, so this is and this is the latest you know what there might be a later one, And if I can get one in seventy four, then I think it's a lot more
easy to explain because that's when Family Jewels happens. That's when Seymour Hirsch hammers the CIA and the press and they have a reason to want to liquidate everything so that anything in that that's compromising can't be found, right, because seventy three is the year before. So but during seventy three, okay, we've already had the Warrant Commission, We've had the Garrison case. That's left several
questions in the public mind. You know, in seventy three January Nixon fires Helms as head of the CIA, ends the Vieta War, and the Watergate burglars start getting unmasked and charged. Right, so investigations are coming. I think anybody in military intelligence might be able to guess at that point that they're going to want to start asking questions and might want to start seeing files, right, right, And this ties to a lot of Look, this does
tie to a lot of the Watergate burglars. Now, the end of the Vietnam War doesn't happen really until seventy six, but yeah, just the declaration of the cessation of hostilities rights. That's what's starting to happen. So this might open up, you know, new questions regarding stuff like that. It
might be time to liquidate a whole bunch of stuff. Oh and while we're at it, why don't we get rid of the DAFK related stuff, especially because this is when Congress begins to start asking questions about a lot of different operations that might have these intermingled agencies between you know, the the intelligence and
the military. Okay, and I mean not the military intelligence, but your CIA and your military that involved both of them when it came to the Cuban operations and stuff like that, which was now getting a good look through stuff that was coming out in the press and questions that were now being asked. Committees were being assembled, so you know, one might even want to look at the congressional record to get an idea about what was going on there as
to what might be coming next. Okay, here's the heads up on those investigations, because those would be the people that would be making requests that they couldn't really just turn away real easy, right, So you know, here we go. I mean, that's that's an explanation. And yeah, and again just note that's ten years after the assassination seventy three. So and again why you know, like why Army Intelligence, Like that's the strangest thing to
me. I mean, Office of Naval Intelligence. You could say they might have had files on John F. Kennedy himself. They might have had files on Harvey oswald Oz being a marine, he's under the onus of the Navy, so you know things like this. Okay, uh, Connolly was secretary in the Navy. I believe at a certain point anyway, please continue, though, I mean, what else do we discover here? Well, I was just going to say, it's what you said made me think too.
It's the lower level destruction can in most instances be explained away. But it's as it flows up and they start destroying entire the entirety of files where it doesn't make any sense anymore, because you know, you hear often in the record, even with some of the HSCA when they're discussing it with the military and the CIA and other agencies that you know, well, we had to get rid of this for you know, like we talked about filing records.
We had to get rid of this because redundancy, we had to get rid of this. Well, why are you purging specific files at the bottom going all the way up so almost like you're trying to thoroughly dis I mean, so there is no record, but I mean with the redundancy that occurred with all the branches, there has to be right, you know, no matter how many times. I wonder, here's an interesting question. How many times was the same document destroyed by how many people? Yeah, there's a good
question, Mike. You have any thoughts on this? And the car mine is describing and explaining here, I mean, you got any thoughts on it? I'm it's I mean, I'm just founded this lot for the first time, so it's a lot to think about. Well, I'll tell you what, if you don't mind, I'd like to publish this article. If you're going to publish it at Wall Street Window, I'd like to publish it on my website as well. Oh sure, and put it out there because we're
running articles through the front page. Now you know they're not on a regular basis, but this would be of interest to me. Yeah, I mean, it sounds like a huge trying to purge everything. When it sounds like everything they can. Yeah. Yeah. The thing that really struck me was that they mentioned specifically Oswald in the DD file where it's like and they gave the specific date. They're like blah blah blah, nineteen seventy three, the
Isle of Lee. And what's funny is they refer to the Julian calendar, the Roman calendar like Julian date blah blah blah. The file of the Arbusold was destroyed by the DoD. Wow. So yeah, that's that's pretty remarkable. I don't I can't think of when I've actually seen that before. Yeah, normally they don't just come out and say it. Yeah, it'll be more, but yeah, no, this specifically was for what I found interesting too about a lot of that, because I've gotten pretty much through all the
new ones. There's a couple of the twenty eighteen's a couple one hundred left to where I've at least scanned and got through it, I think is the majority of the most important stuff, right. And they're so like you were saying earlier about how they make mistakes as far as classification, and they make
mistakes about filing. There's so many documents from more modern times that got mixed into the JFK documents because the word Jeffk's in them, Like you can find like ninety these CIA documents that reveal stuff they probably don't want out there because the word JFK was in one of the slug lines, so they just threw it into the JFK collections, Right. That is that is a weird thing that comes up where you know, I've seen stuff like that before where it's
like, why in the hell is this even in here? You know, this is about something that you know happened in Omaha, Nebraska, you know in nineteen eighty five. Why in the hell is this in here? Well you see why. It's because yeah, indeed there was somebody that was had an interest in the JFK assassination or whatever. So there's like, uh, JFK airport was when I thought to JFK airport comes up. Yeah, that's another one, the JFK airport and stuff like this, and it's like,
wow, why is this even in here? It doesn't well, it just had JFK on it so got thrown in and yeah it's weird. It's very weird. So and that's another thing here is that normally you would see something like that. Okay, they destroy it because it's from a certain era, they destroy it because it's redundant, you know, like I was saying before, or it's already been preserved elsewhere. It leads to some other odd questions because if you remember, there was you know, when they were collecting the
military records for the Assassination Records Review Board. They had asked for files on Oswald and then the liaison for I think it was the Office of Naval Intelligence went tod to go do a search and got stopped in the middle of their search and that was shut down at one point, you know, like and
they were disciplined. It was a female officer and I can't remember her name on the top of my head, but I mean they actually like punished her for doing it, even though she was cooperating with, you know, with the committee, which was really odd. And it makes you wonder like, well, if there's nothing, if they purged all this stuff, right, like, what is it that they would need to punish or a stopper for, then there's nothing to be gotten. Why bother with you know, just
letter search there's nothing there? Well, yeah, good, I think, Yeah, that's precisely it. Maybe there is something there, maybe, you know, and that's not what I think it's. We've discussed this before that our society unfortunately suffers from an overabundance of classification, right that people are so afraid that any little thing might implicate somebody that might be related to them or hurt their power base in some way, they'd rather just classify the whole damn
thing that allow the public access to any part of it. And that could have been exactly what that is. You know, it's a preventative. It's meant to put a chill into the public so that you won't ask questions.
Well, and the other thing is that when you do get this stuff revealed, you know, like I told you about, I mean, I got a hold of certain stuff, and I got hold of three copies of the same student newspaper article that somebody had shared right as they were part of a committee or whatever, and it ends up in the classified documents and they finally let it out. You go get it. It's a photocopy of a freaking cutout newspaper article. It's something that was available in the public domain, you
know, and you're like, why is this here? Yeah, and so it's crazy. But the thing is, and that leads people to go, well, there's nothing but garbage in there. Well, there is some garbage in there. I mean, you know, to be blunt about it, there's some stuff that is absolutely useless and was classified for no real good reason, not like somebody thought about it carefully and said, well, this could be problematic for us because it would reveal a source, it would actually reveal
a method, it would actually reveal something of importance. Not even for that. I think there was an overclassification that occurred for a long time that that now leads to, you know, you got to dig through more stuff, You got to get through more filler and nonsense to be able to get at some real jewels in the pile, you know. I mean, it's not and I one wonders if that's intentional or if that's you know a little bit of column AINE, a little bit of column B where it's partially intentionally done.
And on the other hand, it's just a symptom of the over of the over exuberance of somebody, you know, the over zealous desire to classify things. You know, just classify all of it, classify all their notes, classify all of the you know, communications classify anything that's remotely connected to this or that, and you end up with a bunch of stuff that is effectively useless, did not need to be classified, and yet we still got.
Example is the DA response when they responded to the okay, yeah, when they said, we destroyed everything, but you can't tell anybody because our response is classified, right, which is the funniest It's a perfect example, and there gives you the idea why it wasn't a major headline, right, because if you think about it, during the time of the HSCA, this
should have been a headline. The DEIA destroyed all their files, but if they're not allowed to tell anybody about it, right, It's not that the HSCA was being nefarious, it's just that they were not able to reveal that to the public at the time. And who wants to look foolish because it would have taken your investigation maybe in a different direction that it went. And you basically cut the like that from under your investigation because you had made a
prior arrangement with the military and intelligence agencies. Well, and that's the other problem is if you turned around and you said, well, I don't care that you guys don't want us to reveal this. We'll reveal it anyway. You know, what you're going to get is a serious lack of cooperation on
future inquiries, which is another problem here. I mean if you take a listen to you know, say like Eddie Lopez talking about being sent to Mexico City, right and actually going to try and investigate that circumstance, you can see there was all kinds of considerations there about like, you can't really piss off the CIA guys too much because if you do, they won't cooperate with
you later at all. Breckenridge, to name the one that they were always worried about, that was always a thorn in their side, was Scott Breckenridge, the Deputy Inspector General. There you go, so, yeah, yeah, I'm sorry, go ahead, no, no, no, go go go right ahead, breck and I just say, yeah, I actually wrote an article way back called the ps I Loathe You because it was just breck and Ridge and then going back and forth with each other about how much they
couldn't stand each other. Right, So when do you think you'll have this article out for people to read? And by the way, just email me the text and everything you want included in it, you know, the hyperlinks and whatever, so I can make sure to publish it at least, as you know, at least fairly close to what Mike publishes and it has. Yeah. Yeah, I'll send Mike everything and then i'll send you the stuff after when when he was ready to get it up. But it'll be by
the end of the month, no later. It should be in a week or two. Actually, the only thing I'll probably add is a couple of Like I might add some other photos or whatever to it, just to you know, dress it up a little different so it looks different online. But other than that, I'll publish it the same way that he does, because I think this is important for people to see, and especially the way you lay stuff out. I appreciate it because you're going to show us step by
step how this went. Now, you had another thing you wanted to do on the moles, but I think you and I could talk about that in a future episode. Matter of fact, I don't think Mike will be with me next week. If you want to join me next week at this time, we could we could go over the moles and a couple other things. Maybe I can convince you to start doing some of the groundwork with me, and maybe we'll we'll rejoin the Myths episodes once again we haven't done for that
year. I'm I won't be able to do next week, but I can do the week after. So if Mike might be back, if you want, we could do it then and then I and then by then I would think if the article is not up, we might be able to talk more about it, or it might be up by then. Well, if it is up, I would like to revisit it. If not, we of course we can always go into another direction. Mike, what do you think in two weeks we bring Carmine back in the three of us? Get?
Yeah, sure that I can play it. Let's do that, because it's already about twenty one after the hour, and I kind of only want to take you guys to about quarter after anyway, based on the time we started. But this is really interesting, and I urge you guys again. I'm gonna give you links to not only Carmine's work on this topic, but but but also to links to the stuff that Mike was talking about earlier. Their websites obviously Wall Street Window dot com especially, but also te pok t p
a a K t p a a k dot com. I'm stumbling over it. It's been a while, Carmine. Sorry, but tea pok dot com and you can check out a whole lot of informative stuff. Carmine has stuff on his site that nobody else is really published. So and it's not just
a bunch of redundancy out there. But I heard you, guys, bet in the note, go to Wall Street Window dot com and also go to teapok dot com and check out both Mike Swanson and Carmine Satistano's work, each of them respectively authors Two Princes and the King, the book that I highly recommend by Carmine Satistano, and The War State and Why the Vietnam War,
the books that I highly recommend by Mike Swanson. But he's also written a few others, and looking forward to the second volume of the one upcoming this year, at least I know he'll be working on it this year. Maybe he'll get it out by next year, the second part of the series on the Vietnam conflict. So with that in mind, remember this, I'm merely I check wall Stream window dot dot, Gold Steward the stock market, Wall Street, Window dot dot. Perhaps you're invested deeply, Perhaps you're not in
deep enough. Maybe you're thinking about getting started Wall Street, Windows dot com, do dot com. Michael Swanson, the brilliant author of the War State, understood these trends professionally for many years, and now he gives you the benefit of his knowledge. Wall streetdo dot dot Go there, now go there, now go there. Now revelation through conversation the truth about the day of the assassination. Right, well, what do you want to know? Dy
Baker's wild claim Oswald girlfriends he knew, Ruby and Barry answer weapons. Really, I imagine I could claim I have four wheels. It doesn't make me a wagon, But okay, I'm building and trying to prevent the murder of John Kennedy. Come on, now, has a real effort on the DFA assasination. Go to Amazon dot com enter Judith Baker in her own words. You'll get the results for a digital copy of a book where Walt Brown utilizes her own words and the known evidence in the case to get at well a
different perspective. Let's say you can get Judith Ary Baker in her own words from the author himself, signed if you request it by contacting doctor Brown at k I A S JFK at aol dot com. It's a fun book and it actually dissects the many, many fantastic claims. Judith very Baker in her own words, thank you for all the great information dot Com Radio Network. Do you like history? Real history that you were never taught in schools?
Why the Vietnam War Nuclear Bombs in nation Building in Southeast Asia by author Mike Swanson, with new documentation never seen before that will open your eyes to events that led up to this. Why the Vietnam War Nuclear Bombs in nation Building in Southeast Asia nineteen forty five through nineteen sixty one. Get your copy today at Amazon dot com. Why the Vietnam War by author Mike Swanson. In Denial the Secret Wars with Air Strikes and Tanks by Larry Hancock. Secret wars
became a staple of US covert operations and are still happening today. Larry Hancock's book In Denial rips the cover off many of them, using new files. It exposes things about the Bay of Pigs that no one has ever written about before. It shows why it really failed and why the United States did not earn from it. It also shows why odes today or doing the secret operations with more success. This is the book that puts what some want to deny
into the light. In Denial Secret Wars with air strikes and tanks Larry Hancock. For more information, go to larryheyphen Handcock dot com. Pick up your copy of In Denial at Amazon dot com in digital or physical flow Chilly dot com. The War State by Michael Swanson explains the great national transformation that took place and put the Kennedy presidency in the context of the times and revealed never before published information about the Cuban missile crisis. President Kennedy would not have been
assassinated if he had been president two hundred years ago. His assassination took place in the context of the Cold War and the rise of the national security state. Before World War II, the United States was a continental republic. In the decade that followed, it became an imperial superpower. Generals such as Curtis LeMay not only wanted to invade Cuba, but knew that there were short range missiles on the island. Aren't with nuclear warheads that they could not destroy because
they were on mobile launchers. Their invasion could have led to a Third World War, and they wanted to go to war anyway. The War State by Michael Swanson reveals why, and we'll show you what President Kennedy was up against. For more information, the War State dot com dot com radio watch songs see Renny Wi Your Stir Strong and Shi can save Rock if we don't not no sid So stud Also something somethingtures, such as something co