Get ready for it you.
April fifteen, twenty twenty six, allegedly according to that thing we call a calendar. You know, they also used to call this tax Day. Hopefully you've taken care of all that, and we are live on a Wednesday Wodnesday, middle of the week. But of course most of you will catch the podcast later on down the stream, and that's just fine by me because at least you're listening and listening
in anyway, this is a good one. Also continuing on with the theme of thanking people that decided to chip in for the big yearly bills to help me pay them. You know, I will once again mention that Ed and b Pete and I'm looking over to my side here trying to catch something and not not reveal that to you. Anyways, Danny and of course our friend regular Joe all contributed to help us get through. And that's still going on.
And if you want to be thank the rest of the week, do so by contributing at o'chelly dot com and that is through cash app or the PayPal for missus oh, because they took mine away any who. Enough of that, part of my thank you this week is to bring on Larry Hancock and his co author for The Oswald Puzzle, David Boylin. Oh wow, I said the a correctly at that time. Anyways, David Boylan, who has been his co author on this book, and of course I highly recommended the first version of it. There is
an update. That update is worthy of an update, because you know me, I will tell you, guys if somebody's just trying to sell you another book instead of giving you some worthy information that needed to be added to the volume. And again, I highly recommend this book for the study of Lee Harvey Oswald. I think it's an excellent piece and stands alone. But then again, I recommend all of Larry Hancock's books and have them all physically on my shelf, every last one, and you should too.
But this one tonight we're talking about is The Oswald Puzzle. Of course, there will be links to Larry Hancock in the show notes. You know, David, I don't know if you have a centralized website to go to, but you need to email that to me so I can include it in the show notes. I forgot to ask you about that before we started to record here, but I definitely need that from you, and just if you could
make a mental note. If you're as good as me, you'll need to be reminded again later, but that's okay. Hopefully I'll have David's information in the show notes in case you want to reach out or to further exploration of any other work that David does. But I do highly recommend the Oswald puzzles. So enough out of me. Even though I went to air twelve minutes late, I only took three minutes to ramble at the beginning, so that's not bad for o'helley, Larry. How you doing tonight?
First off, didn't find Chuck.
Thanks, it actually rains some here. Thanks are green. It's a lovely spring, so it's a late late spring in an early spring both and they're even mosquitoes out already.
And you know what you sound kind of chipper, which is good because you know, when it rains, I get miserable because I feel every bone I ever broke as soon as it rains around me, or even before it does, the pressure drops. But I love it that you enjoy
the weather and where you're at. So David, you know you haven't made too many appearances on the show, but definitely glad to have you along, and I've seen you in person and everything, and especially it was interesting when you were presenting live and Larry was virtual at a conference not too long ago.
That was fun.
There may be several jokes we could add here, but let's not do that. How you doing tonight, sir?
I am doing good, doing well. That is nice trippers, Larry, but I'm doing pretty good well.
That's okay.
Few of us can be anywhere near like Larry Hancock.
I mean that's you know, no jokes either.
Anyways, David, I'm kind of going to start with you believe it or not, and I want Larry to frame things as he feels appropriate, because there is an increase of information here in this volume, the Oswald puzzle once again, and I'm sure I'll include a picture of the book along with the show graphics, so if you don't recognize it, it's a fairly well known photo of Oswald on the
front cover. Interesting design, and definitely advise you get yourself a physical copy because you know, not you, David, but other people need to get a physical copy because I don't know. I am just a physical copy book kind of guy. If it's worth having, it's worth keeping and this digital stuff can be changed, deleted, altered at any time, So you know, I appreciate the physical book, and even the they will look almost exactly the same on your bookshelf.
It's worth it to get the second one. Anyway, Enough plugs, David, you wound up going into you know, not just you alone, obviously, but you spent quite a bit of time working on the New Orleans angle here, and this is always big bones of contention, big problems. We've seen this story in a lot of places, even in the most famous of places, like the movie JFK, etc. You know, and there is just a labyrinth of information available regarding this character Oswald.
And I call him a character because well he is quite the character, somebody who only lived to be twenty four years old, who did quite a bit in his short life, and some of it in New Orleans. So if you could, you know, without giving a lot away, give us an idea of, you know, some of the stuff that you expound upon in the New Orleans section that you contributed here to the Oswald.
Puzzle, please sure a couple of things. First.
First of all, this book wouldn't exist without Rex Bradford. I just want to throw that out there. He was such a big help both you know, the update and the original one, so much editing, and you'd call us out on a lot of things that made us actually you know, reference everything documented like so excellent.
Right, you know what, David, Here's the way that I would put this is that, thankfully in jfk Land, a lot of things do and do not exist because of Rex Bradford, and we are all better off for it. Okay, the things that do exist and the things that don't because of Rex are both very positive things. I mean, not even to mention all of his work at Mary Farrell Foundation, and even the very early work. They're scanning a lot of documentation making it available to us all
among other things. Plus he was editing this book with you guys, and he is a tough editor. To my understanding. Is that all accurate according to you, David? Or did I have something wrong?
Yeah? He's such a cool, low key guy. But yes, he is very demanding, but in a nice polate way, you know. But yeah, I mean, the Mary Farrell Foundation is priceless.
You know.
Again, I've been doing this for like thirty something years. I remember the old you'd have to you know, right into narrow and you know, tell them what you wanted. They would photocopy and send it to you one hundred pages for free, you know. So that's all we get back in those days on any subject, you know. But with the Mary Farrell Foundation, you know, the queries are
can do. The database awesome. You know, it helps build the knowledge base, you know, and helps you know what's in our heads, you know, just like, oh, that's being it to make sense. Now now we have kryptonyms. Now we know that all these people are. Now we got you know, really released documents or updated documents where the redactions are going they're unredacted. Now now we know that you know, this person was contacted by this person. Now
we know who that's. You know, this guy's pseudonym was Cayle Trenton, will you know, we'll talk about him a little bit. You know, he was Carl Thiels and his dealings with Augustine Guitot, you know, who is Sylvia Odio's uncle. But but yeah, I mean that's where we're at now, which is why we're able to update this book. We just kept digging, building out relationships, who these people are and taking a fresh look at you know who Oswald was actually dealing.
With in New Orleans.
You know, we'll go back to the original like all right, guy Bannister, David Ferry, Kerry Thornley. But I had never really got us anywhere. You know, a lot of dead ends, you know. So when we started looking at the people at Oswald was actually dealing with, they were the Cubans that that recalls them, the old school Cubans, you know, the old guys from the CRC Cuban Revolutionary consul They were at Oswald's you know, court appearance.
And why would at Oswald's court appearance? How do they know about him?
So that's where we started to dig in and flesh out these characters to find out they're role CIA connected, you know, literally CIA connected.
Right now, let me just interrupt you here to clarify for the audience. Of course, the court appearance you're talking about is the very well known incident where there was the scuffle in the street let's call it between Oswald, Carlos Berengeer, and some other Cuban individuals when he was handing out leaflets in public and then there was an incident. Meanwhile, he goes to court and winds up paying something like a ten dollar fine I think with at the time
something like that, you know, and and walking out. But he's the only guy who got fined in the incident. Let's say I'm holding up air quotes for you guys at home, I can't see you know that that occurs here. But that leads to a whole thing where he gets seen in public, you know, on a couple of different broadcasts. He gets heard on a radio station or a well,
you know, Latin listening post. And of course it seems like CIA people are everywhere, whether they're being funded or possibly even controlled by all around this guy one way or another. I mean, is that an unfair way to remind people what court case we're talking about here?
No, that's perfect, That's exactly it. Okay, Yeah, So.
Going forward, you start looking at who's connected to who he's interacting with, and uh, you know, just give us an idea of a couple of the things that you used to build out those relationships, if you don't mind, maybe you know, tell us about Okay, we found something.
Because obviously people have gone over this before and have made some you know, pretty interesting claims sometimes with some gaps in their information, sometimes with a little bit of misdirection because quite honestly, they had a predetermined idea it seemed like to me where they wanted to go with it. But there is a lot of directions that somebody could travel with that information because of the array of people around Oswald.
Right, yeah, that's correct.
So Lara and I we focused on maybe three, four or five different people and where that information went and who these people were. I'll start off with one's still Rodrigez. He was a member of the CRC Cuban Revolutionary Console. He was the guy that would signed the checks, you know, and pay the rent for a five forty four Camp Street. He knew guy Banister because you know, they shared the building. No, Rodriguez admitted to knowing by Beans and all those guys.
That's a quote from him when he was actually interviewed. He was the guy that Oswald first approached in New Orleans about, you know, the Cuban exiles there. He wanted to learn Oswald wanted to learn how to speak Spanish because he was very interested in going to Cuba, you know that whole socialist you know, Fidel Castro movement there.
So he approached honestill Rodriguez at the Modern School of Languages, and honest Rodriguez said, you know, he started to speak, you know, Russian to show up Oswald, show off I was Russian was and Honesto started to speak back Russian. But then he said he had to stop because Oswald's Russian was so much better than his.
He just, you know, he said, I got lost.
But then Oswald also asked him, are there any other local Cubans I can talk to? So he's the one that gave Oswald bring Gear's address and name. You know, we gave a couple of others game Frank Bartes a recipia or the local people, and this is who Oswald ended up going to see, you know, here Colse to see bring Gear. It talks about him and says, hey, you know, I could teach you know, the Cuban exiles how to shoot. I'm a marine, I you know, can
help you guys out. And that's how originally originally first approached bring Gear. But then we all know about him passing out leaflets later on, and you know, in fair play for Cuba literature, and then.
That's when uh who is it? Uh?
Celzo Hernandez actually you know, went back to Kyles Springeer and said, hey, you know this guy that was in here before, he's outpassing pro you know, Castro literature. Right, So that was one connection.
Right now, if you don't mind, I want to pause with you for a moment and go to Larry for some context here, because this is the incident where you know, again we do know about it, but Oswald hands over his marine handbook and all of that is sort of like a symbolic pledge I want to be on your side. Meanwhile, he goes out in the street and hands out leaplets that are pro castro, which doesn't fly well with these guys. How do we put this in context what David's talking about Larry.
Well, a couple of things.
The timeline's very important, and I think we often gloss over the timeline in New Orleans, just as we do sometimes the larger timeline, but before one thing so that everyone understands. The book that we're talking about that has
the additional information is the paperback version. And just to explain and Chuck you had asked about this, the point is normally the publisher issues the paperback about six months or twelve months after the hardcover comes out right, And in this case, what really drove this whole process was
the document releases. We knew that we wanted to look into this, and suddenly we were seeing new documents, you know, a year ago that show a much different connection between New Orleans and Miami than we'd ever seen before, much more in depth, involving different characters. There's just a much broader knowledge, and so that's what led David and I to work up this new material just context for the book.
But that's why it's coming in that paperback edition. So if you want to find it, it's in the paperback. And then once the paperback is actually available, the publisher says they're going to put update the kindle to have it as well. But that's just a little backstory there.
But the context for this and the timeline that's important for Oswald is there's been a lot of discussion about Oswald and bring here and the leaf linting, the incident and the dre and who did the Dr Tael and who did in the Dr Tael and joy EDI's that whole storyline. That's not the primary storyline that we follow in this new information as cheap and Revenuelutionary Council people, and the reason it's not is we found something common.
In all of them.
As soon as Oswald is arrest, has this hearing, he gets fine, he spends a night in jail, gets fined, He comes out. The next thing he does is contact the FBI and offer to provide information on this covert fair play for Cuba committee, and so like the next day, Oswald is lying about what he's doing in New Orleans. He's lying about who he's contacting. This is really interesting. Oswald starts lying. The interesting thing is the people that are in that hearing with Oswald, the old school CRC
people start line too. A matter of fact, when the FBI comes back to Bartes and said, did you ever you know we're investigating this to the Harvey Osweald, because you know, we're coming kind of concerned that maybe didn't tell us the whole story of the truth.
Artis says, I don't know who you're talking about. I don't know Oswald.
Barnes, who is an FBI and CIA source cleared as a source and who actually will become operational with the CIA, lies to the FBI. So one thing that context wise, I think in the supporting is what David and I started looking at all of this information, and the really important point is everybody starts lying to every.
Okay, Larry, do me a favor. Larry mute upon startling. Yeah, Larry, do me a favor. Larry, mute up for a couple of seconds, because your compression is breaking down a little bit, and I want to make sure people hear what you're saying,
So just mute up for a couple seconds. Let me talk, and just throw a little bit of context into this as well, because David brought up you know that Oswalt's Russian was been, you know, a little bit too advance for somebody who was talking to Well, that would obviously be because he had just been in the Soviet Union not long before what was right in Minsk, so you know, he had had a bit of use of the Russian language, I would think while he was there, although according to
some people he spent a lot of time speaking English, but obviously he picked up some. But this is fascinating because he's not only lying about things, and other people are seeming to fall in line with the same lies simultaneously on the record, but he's telling them I want to tell you about this covert fair Play for Cuba Committee thing, and the funny part again, as we know historically from the record, there was no official fair Play
for Cuba Committee in New Orleans. He's got a fake chapter with some fake president he claims to be the treasurer in radio and TV interviews of this chapter of the fair Play for Cuba Committee that doesn't exist, and he's rating on it, the thing that he created out of thin air, and he's rating on it to the FEDS even though he's the one who actually created it on paper and didn't actually go through the process of creating a fair Play for Cuba Committee in New Orleans realistically.
So there you go for part of the context on this. But also I think it's fascinating what you guys discover regarding how these things do sort of begin to make sense. You know, when everybody starts to tell the same story, it's not necessarily an indication of the truth, but it's an indication of coordination. In any criminal investigation, I mean,
any any detective will tell you this. As soon as you see people telling the same consistent lies and sometimes using the same wording and everything else, you know, you got to start digging up on stuff because it's usually not Oh gee, since their stories matched, they must be true, which you know, most normal people would think of. But what was happening there in New Orleans was not very normal.
So Larry, if you could continue to give some context. Now, hopefully your compression is better, because I don't want you breaking up while you're explaining this. Go ahead.
Yeah.
The point is that there are different sets of people lying about Oswald, Right, you had these Cuban Revolutionary Council members and their line if someone approaches them, But it goes further than that.
We know that.
One of their long term associates named Carlos Carraga went to visit Learvy Oswald and presented himself as a Castor supporter. Oswald was impressed.
He liked it.
He was looking for people fellow trail. Garaga comes back and tells everybody, you know, I can talk to this guy. You know, we're inside. So we've got this group of people who essentially have penetrated Oswell in our position to talk to him, you know, and get him to agree with him. And they're on his side, which is very interesting. But they don't report that to the FBI, They don't report it to the CIA, Nobody follows along with the story.
This is at the same time this is going on, the FBI is treating Oswald as a potential source because he's providing them information, right, And an interesting and interesting piece of speculation for that that David's brought up.
You know, we've got.
Five to four to four Camp Street, Well that's a that's the number that relates to the CRC and you know, and the building that they rented. And you know, Ernesto has the keys to the building, perhaps he loans, but Oswell get into the building, use it for office for a short period of time. You know, Banister knows this. Perhaps Warren de Burris, the subversive disc FBI agent in New Orleans who's in contact with Banister, we know that passes on the word that you know, Oswell's he's our guy.
He's helping us provide information on the FPCC. So maybe you should I shouldn't go beat him up, you know, let him alone.
He's one of our guys.
Which is an interesting thing that happens because after that first incident where bring gear and confronts him in the street and they almost get physical Oswell comes back and does his big leafleting scene on the street with TV cameras and other guys that he hires, and the Cubans are absent now this time.
They don't even show up.
No placards, no signs, no punching out Oswald. Nobody meets them in it. You know, it's like everybody is hands.
Off Oswald right now, Larry.
And everybody is those guys.
Those guys are not far away either. It's not like it's a big distance. They could have easily taken a stroll over there. Looks like to me. And let's not forget about those guys he hired from the temp agency that were all dressed kind of like him, with the white T shirt, with the white button down shirt and all right, and the ties. I always find that comical. And that's that imagery was also made even more infamous when you know, Donald Trump was jumping onto the theory
about what was it Ted Cruz's father being there. That was one of the images used right during that leafletting incident. Larry, Sorry sorry to bring that up, but well it is.
And we now know that that image was actually constructed by Oswald because Oswald gave him their durist instructions and when he was asked and interviewed, he told people that they were a group of students from a local college that we're demonstrating. So Oswald, you know, this is this is another part of his creativity. This is a student organization demonstrating. And when we're done and the FBI is
looking for this, organizations like nope, can't find it. And it was artificial, but that was very intentional on Oswald's part, right, all of a sudden after that, his hands off Oswald right until the FBI starts looking for him again.
Yeah, yeah, no, that's great with that. I want to turn it back over to David if you don't mind, because and I find this comical because again he's got guys that need a day's work from the temp agency. He's got them out there. He's created this whole image, he's created the fig chapter. I mean, there's a bit of work going into this, you know, and it's being presented a certain way and then it's being reported different way. You know what, if you don't mind, what did you
discover about that? And you know what it is? This guy, I mean, this is a lot of work for somebody who was, you know, supposedly just recruiting students allegedly right working out of that building. By the way, that building it's that that kind of like it's dramatized in JFK with the two entrances and all that. That building has been knocked down since, I believe, but it did exist and pretty much the way it was dramatized in that film, although there's a couple other weird things going on in
those scenes, but pay no attention to that. There is something there to it. Is there anything new that you discovered about this nexus, David that you'd like to share here just a little bit.
Well, you know, we're talking about Anestawardriguez. We'll talk about him, Frank, Frank Bartez and Augustine greetadd a little bit in the connections to Oswald Honestill Rodriguez, who was you know he was him and his father were both members of the CRC,
and so was Kylo Springear. A lot of people don't know that he was one of the original members of the CRC before he left to join the DR, the Student Revolutionary Directorate, and he was close to all these guys, I mean, they were friends Arnesta Rodriguez and Kyle Springier used to go to John Birch Society meetings together. They were both FBI informants, and these guys hung out together. It's my point, but I'm trying to get to so he was no stranger to these guys. Honesto. Rodriguez has
an interesting brother. I'm not sure if anybody's how many people aware of it, but his brother, Emilio Rodriguez, used to work with Honesta at the Modern Language Institute, the Burlet's School, and he was in Havana and he got recruited by the CIA. He volunteered, he wanted to join, and his original case officer recruiter was Henry Hecksher, who ended up, you know, being the case officer for them
World Project. So Emilio and that'sa his brother was hired by the CIA, and he worked closely with David Morales and Tony Swozza, and you know, this guy was one of the main stay behind guys that had agents.
Working for him. Man, he was as connected as can be.
In case somebody doesn't know, David, what is M World or AM World? Please?
Just in case somebody it is.
Sure it was run by Manuel Ardema who was He was backed by the CIA. It was supposed to be an autonomous operation where they were gonna go off no off, out of the United States and work in Latin America and Nicaragua, Guatemala, Costa Rica where they set up camps and they were going to invade Cuba and the plan and you sometimes.
Are you the listener might have heard that name pronounceable for our teammate. Just just for the record, but Artema, right, and we're talking about the same guy. Okay, No, I just want to make sure people know because I know that that's commonly the way it's pronounced, and I'm not even certain which way is correct, but just just for a point of reference.
Sorry, go ahead, So you Emilio. Let's long story short. He was very connected, very high up at JM Wave worked for a counter intel, foreign intel and covert action. So he was all across the board trying to recruit assets for the CIA. So he was CIA. That was no Nesto's brother who knew Oswalt, you know, so it's pretty interesting. Frank Bartes was a member of the CRC. He was the actual delegate. He replaced a lot of people. Remember Sergio Lacachia Smith. You know that's been names been
around quite a bit with the old Garrison investigator. He get booted from the CRC in sixty one and he's replaced by Lewis Ravel, who stuck around for a little while, and Rebell quit and was replaced by Frank Francisco Bartes. So Bartes was a delegate in New Orleans and his assistant delegate was Sylvia Odio's uncle, Augustine Guiton. These guys were close, That's the point I was getting at. And they were all at Oswald's you know, court appearents, even
Sylvia Odio's uncle. They knew Oswald well. And Frank Bartees had a confrontation outside the courtroom with Lee Oswald. A month later, the FBI says to Frank Bartes, you know, we're trying to track down Lee Oswald.
Do you know him? Do you know?
Because I don't know, never met him, never saw him before in my life. So that's when we figure Oswald was in play. This was September tenth, nineteen sixty three. The FBI talked from you know this documentation on he goes, no, I don't know Oswald, is you know he's bullshitting there, you know, diary context.
Yeah, go ahead, Yeah, And I think what David has just described. Just think about this.
If ten years ago, not just Dia Garrison, but even if ten years ago we had realized that the three guys in the courtroom with Oswald were all Sea Ice horss FBI informants, and that they all had connections like Arnie Stowe and Bartes and Guitar all had connections to people in special affairs in the Cuba project at Jahim Wave, we would have blown our minds. We did not know that, nobody knew that at that point in time. We did not know that guitar Sylvia Odio's uncle was connected to
Antonio Verona. Antonio Verona at that time was the acting head of the Cuban Revolutionary Council in fall of sixty three, and Verona had been part of the long term CIA assassination project targeting Castro that had started out in nineteen sixty one and had gone on under with you know, David Morales, William Harvey Roselli, all of these people that
are common to us. You know that we know, we did not have no idea that there's this connection through Verona to this guy who's in the courtroom with Lee Harvey Oswald. These people are talking. They're close enough socially so that Verona comes to New Orleans and visits and stays with guitar in his home. In November of nineteen sixty three, Bartes goes to New or goes to Miami, and they're all socially connected. This connection between New Orleans and Miami is far deeper and darker in a way
than we had ever imagined. That this is shocking news, and this is one of the things that led us to explore. As David just said, you know, once everybody starts lying, somebody's decided that there's you know, there's a hand being played, and you've got to start you know who's playing what hand. Clearly, these Cubans in Miami are involved in playing some kind of a hand with.
Lee Harvey Oswell.
And and they actually even have access to Oswald. They've got someone who can go visit him, who he trusts as a Feller traveler. Now they can make their introductions.
So somebody outside of all this research might ask, you know, look, these guys are making the time to show up in court, which is not something. You know, people see this all the time in this case and they go, oh, well, so the guys in court. I mean, it's it's there's
a purpose for this. What would be the general way to describe what this effort is and does it really center on Oswald or is it just that he's part of a greater plan that we have, you know, some insight into now where Oswald is a possible player, but he's not at the center of anything. I mean, how how would you explain that to somebody? You know, he hasn't read the book yet.
That's where people start to make a mistake, Chuck, because you start looking for this special plan. And that's why the time whining is so so important, because it's it's evolutionary. You know, Oswald is of interest because Oswald's in New Orleans and he's doing things that are of interest to these people. And they've been they've been playing this anti Castro game for years now.
They are old school.
The guitar is actually has operational approval with the CIA to be a spotter and to look for people to recruit into anty castro activities, look in New Orleans, in Cuba. He's to spot Cuba these people are involved in this anti Castro game.
So at this point in time, Oswell is just of interest. You know, who is he?
Let's learn about them, Let's find out something. Otherwise they would not have shown their hand by going to court. They're all trying to find out who Oswell really is, what is his game, and can we bring him into our game? And I think it It really troubles me that people immediately jump to the fact that this must be something that's part of something already going on, where in fact, it's more likely it's part of something that's developmental.
And Oswell is going to leave New Orleans, and Oswell is going to go, you know, to Mexico City, but Oswall likely is going to go to sel the audios and to mccowan's and the sequence events.
I guess what I'm trying to get across.
And David can say if he agrees or not, is we see it as evolutionary, it's not fixed in stone. At the time they're in court, they're looking at Oswald, Oswell's looking back at them.
You know, who's playing what game with who?
What we do know is they all begin within thirty days to start lying about what they know about Lee Harvey Oswald. We know that Qurraga lied under polygraph with Garrison about Oswald and Rifle and Oswald a conspiracy. You know, it's this lies that become important, you know, And when do they start telling them and they don't tell I mean they're they're in court and open court and they're in video footage. David's got captures of it. So at
that point in time, there's nothing to be exposed. But within thirty days there's something that they're beginning to hide.
Right, So David, is this an accurate and fair representation of the pattern you see emerging? And what would you add to that pattern that you're recognizing now in this data, especially with the new documentation being added.
Yeah, one hundred percent agree.
So just a little bit of context. Frank Bartes, you know, the head of the New Orleans CRC, we'ld have meetings at his business office and sometimes at his home with Augustine Gree Todd, Nesta Rodriguez, Carlos Bringeier would sometimes show up and a couple other guys, and the guy who they considered that liaison between the various Cuban groups was Carlos Kroga so we figured these guys sent Karoga supposedly Bringier to go see how to pretend he's uh that
Kroga was pro castro and he's interested in the fair Play for Cuba Committee. Oswald gives them, you know, an application to become a member of the fair Play for Cuba Committee, gives them a bunch of leaflets the pass out. So they're really playing Oswald at this point. So they realized they can talk to Oswald as long as they pretend to be pro castro. Oswald, you know, your best buddy, you know, he'll keep talking to you.
You know.
So that's I think where they realized, if you pretend we send some more pro castro guys, the guys pretend to be pro castro, we can play Oswald. And we go into that a little bit in the book to who these guys we believe were that the two guys that went to Sylvia Audios, which is huge, they were friends of Frank Bartz and that is documented. That's huge, I think.
Speaking of documentation and who's got eyes on what With all of these players of interest in motion, one would start to wonder who's actually got surveillance on it? And
are we missing somebody's reports. Are we missing some surveillance that should have obviously and logically been on some of these circumstances, some of these meetings with some of these characters, it should have been followed up on, because there were various agencies and non government agencies, let's say, of sorts, that should have been interested in keeping an eye on
all this interaction. Do you think we have stuff missing or do you think that we now have a better picture because of some of the reports filed in surveillance David, or would you like to pass that over to Larry. That's up to you.
Well, I'll let Larry take a first cut at that and I'll add by two cents afterwards.
Okay, Yeah, So two different things going on, and that's why in the book we actually did two separate chapters. One chapter is how Oslo became of operationditional interest to the CIA at JM Wave, and that's a group of people that are interested in him are monitoring what he's doing, but remotely. They're monitoring, largely through reports they're getting from
the FBI. And one of the points of the new releases was shocking was to find out how much information that the FBI was passing on to the CIA in Miami that Miami wasn't sharing with anybody.
Well, for instance, I was sharing.
It, yeah, sorry, Larry. For instance, on that would be the information about Oswald's mail being intercepted right at this I think it's at this time that was relevant Or do I have that wrong somehow because I have not. You know, I only went over it a bit. But isn't that part of the equation here?
They have shared mail intercepts.
But what's striking at this point in time is the most striking thing is that when Oswell shows up in Mexico City, in Mexico City wants to know who this.
Guy is.
Headquarters.
The information they provide is that Oswald is still in Russia as married to a Russian woman and may come back to the United States someday.
The reason that's provided to Mexico.
City is that the FBI has started to lie to itself to the extent that they've pulled all the contemporary information into a special file. Now Miami station knows all of this because the FBI is telling them, and this is in new documents. They're telling them in detail. They're even passing on host these information from Dallas to Miami, but miam is not telling anybody about that, certainly not Mexico City. So that's probably the biggest example of who's
not sharing information. But then that's in the CIA, and that's in Miami. In New Orleans, it's these Cubans who aren't sharing information locally with the FBI. They're flatlined to them, and they're all CIA sources, and ostensibly they're not sharing anything with the CIA. If you want to talk about missing paper trails, it's like, did mister Rodriguez and New Orleans not talk to his brother and Emilio about this new you know America next marine CIA supporter of Castro.
Did they not have this dialogue when they talk. We don't have any document that says they did.
Did Guitar put a report.
To his domestic ops contact and he did have a domestic ops contact about Oswald?
We don't have that report.
The guys, it's like they're two different groups that are withholding information, specialist affair staff in Miami and the old school CRC guys in New Orleans. The tipping point, the cross point among all of them, though may well be Antonio Verona, who knows both sets of players, and especially in regard to guitar and Sylvia odio and what starts to happen later. David can expand, but I think that's the point, Chuck. There are two groups that begin to
withhold information. That's why there are two chapters in the book, because we felt we had to treat them separately as two different sets of people with separate operational interest in Oswald.
Right now, look, we're going to quickly approach the last ten minutes of our discussion here, so I want to give you and David both a chance to round out. We've gone in depth on a few things here, but to sort of round out the rest of the teaser, if you will. For the update on the book, I really want people to pick it up. And yes, indeed it is the paperback version, and I am lucky enough to have one in my hands. I'm extremely happy with that, and I know if you guys go and get this
one you will be too. Even if you have the original one, you'll be very happy with this one. Also. For some reason, I don't know what they did with the quality of the pages, but I'm finding this one easier to read than the hardcover The hardcover was not bad, but or the previous version, I can't even remember if it's got a hardcover on it, but it wasn't bad. But this one's actually a little easier to read, too,
so there's a little inside extra on it, David. So overall, if we were to sort of summarize here about especially the addition, but the whole thing is great, and if you haven't picked it up, definitely get the one with the update for sure. I don't know what else was changed, honestly, because I really wanted to see what was added myself. But if you could, you know, give us a sort of summation on what's really important or the most important things that people might be able to learn or to
glean from this or to begin to understand. I mean, as always this subject matter and the subject of Lee Harvey Oswald also, which I find to be separate from the assassination to some decree, because I don't for a second think this is your culprit, but is a fascinating character and reveals a lot of other things about the national security state, and it's a status quo at the time, and some of its weird and strange off road adventures
let's call them from the nineteen sixties. You can learn a lot from the study of Oswald in the way things were going on around him, to him and virtually or actually not virtually, but what do I mean to say, ultimately what ended up happening to him in the end, and the way it was handled and everything else. Plus the media ever after gives you a lot of insight into the behavior of the national security state, which by
the way, is Larry Hancock's specialty. But anyways, David, on this subject, though, what would be the great teaser here, something new that people would pick up on from the addition that you'd like to point them to.
So many things.
I mean, John Newman described it best. You got an out of focus puzzle with pieces missing. I think we put a few of these pieces in maybe a little bit more in focus, but there's still a lot missing that we don't know and we're still trying to figure out, and we're going to continue, you know, to keep plugging away at this. What I got too from it is a CIA wasn't talking to the CIA, and a lot of things too, And you know that's what we look at here, like you had the special affair of staff,
which was the Cuba project. These guys focus on Cuba. They weren't talking to Mexico City. You know, as far as what was going on with the Oswald, Mexico Cities was in the dark. Who is this guy? But Special Affairs staff they knew who he was. They again the reports they get signing off on them. You know, this is a good quote here that we use in the book too. And John Newman talked to Jane Roman, who was the CIA counter intelligence liaison and she was looking
at Oswald's file. She was, uh, Newman, as is this indicative of some sort of operational interest in Oswald's file? In Rome says yes, to me, it's indicative of keen interest in Oswald held very closely on the need to know basis by sas Special Affairs staff staff. They thought that somehow they can make some use of Oswald. Boom, there it is, you know, and they weren't talking to Mexico City.
What they're trying to do with Oswald?
The Special Affairs Cuban staff, and we go into that quite a bit of what we think they were trying to do. You know, what would the operational interest in Oswald was in one of the chapters we go in.
Also, David, would it be fair or unfair to say that in some cases as you could almost look at jmwave as an island onto itself somewhat separational, separated, excuse me, from the operational aspects of the interconnectivity of the agency. At the time, Jmwave was doing stuff that they weren't necessarily ready to share with the entire rest of the body of the CIA.
Sometimes.
And is this something that you saw coming up when it comes to the character of Lee Harvey Oswald. Obviously there were other things going on to jmwave, But what about the island onto itself concept?
What do you think about?
Oh, yeah, these guys were actually there was groups and clicks within jmwave too that just talked with each other. I mean William Harvey when he used to go when tasks w he'd go to Jmwave. He only wanted to talk to the paramilitary guys, David Morales in particular. So that shows you do you want to talk to your foreign intelligence guys? And this is you know from his
book is bio Harvey's bio. So I mean, yeah, JAM wave had its own small little click there of the paramilitary guys, Rip Robinson, Gratson Lynch, Dave Morales who was their boss.
Yeah, yeah, And I found that people have actually taken special interest in Rip Roberts lately, you know, as of late, I should say not lately, but you know, the finding him to be a much more interesting character than they might have thought of in the past. I think partially due to your guys work, and maybe a couple of other people have actually kicked over stone or two regarding
that guy, and definitely worthy of further exploration. Larry, if you don't mind a similar question to you about you know, could you summarize what is really something that could be gleaned from this Maybe it's slightly different answer from what you know David gave, maybe, or if you just want to concur that's fine. But since we're, you know, rounding out to about the end of our hour here, I wanted to give you a chance to tell, well, what what is new and what is of interest here in
the new edition. Although I tell you again the entire book, not you, Larry, but you listening, that the entire book is worthy of a reference material in and of itself on your shelf. And I don't say that about too many JFK books at all, although I got to say, I want to read, well, I want to read doctor Douglas's book, The New One, and I haven't gotten a copy of that yet and haven't been able to get in touch with James Douglas. But you know there's another
guy who puts things in context. But Larry another day, maybe we'll talk about that, and maybe I'll talk about that with him if I get lucky. What would you say, though, is a good way to summarize the the interest? Like, you know, you wouldn't do this if it didn't you know, seem to need to be done. So what's the what's the deal? What is the teaser if you will? To the reader out there?
Yeah, and a teaser, I think, just to rep up what David said. Our view is that the CIA Special Affairs staff within their Propaganda section saw Oswell as an opportunity to launch a new black propaganda project in support of Mworld. This would be something that they launched overseas.
David Phillips became involved in that, Joan Edies became involved in that, and to telegraph a little bit the outlet that they were likely going to use to do this because since its black project, it has to be totally disassociated. Was probably going to be the INCA group in New Orleans, which gets to be very fascinating.
He takes you back to New.
Orleans because we're going to show you that they actually had that kind of project in development and we're about to launch it by the end of the year. As it ended up, it got launched a little earlier because of November twenty second. But that's one area. That's one
operational use. The other operational use is that we think that the connections that we discussed in the last few minutes in New Orleans established Oswell of operational interest to the conspiracy, and that over the next ninety days, not all at once, but over the next ninety.
Days, they figured out a way.
To use Oswell for one thing and another thing and a MultiMate as a patsy in Dallas. So Oswell became of operational interest to both the CIA for actually a sanctioned, legitimate operation which they had to cover up like after the assassination, because who wants to admit that, Oh, you mean the guy we were about to use.
No, no, we don't know him.
And of operational use by the people that were actually involved in the assassination deciding that they had control to a certain extent over this guy and they knew enough about him to make them a patsy, which they had not planned in the beginning. But some things, you know, just come together right.
And plausible deniability wrapped in deniability. Maybe again wrapped in plausible deniability. But you know, a lot to explore here. Also another just quick note for media studies and the dynamics of the interactions of the government, the different operations going on and all that. Let us not forget that Latin Listening Post was partially at least partially funded by INCA as well, and they even took credit on the
release of the record of Lee Harvey Oswald. If you take a look at it, Lee Harvey Oswald speaks the Latin Listening Post interview right that they put out on a piece of vital for a few kiddies out there.
They used to have these record things that were on vinyl and it said, yeah, Inca's listed on there as like you know, like where even have a record company practically, So just saying it's an interesting study when it comes to the dynamics of the American media and it's interactivity with intelligence agencies, et cetera, et cetera as well, not the focus in Larry's book, But just a side note from me who does presentations on that anyway, I want to thank David Boilin and Larry Hancock w we are
the co authors of the Oswald Puzzle, and hopefully this gives you guys out there enough to motivate you to go get the newly updated version of the Oswald Puzzle. Again, I highly recommend it. I will give you guys a link in the show notes to go get it. I don't care if you get the electronic one, but I highly recommend the paperback. And as Larry said, they will be updating the kindle soon, so wait and the updated kindle will be available shortly. But in the meantime, pre
orders and whatnot. Do your thing. And again it's always.
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