Ochelli Effect 9-7-2025 Paul Abbot

other podcasts. Look, I don't think the world knows about him as much as they need to. How about that? Why do I say this? Paul Abbott is someone who has studied the JFK assassination aspects let's say, connected to the assassination in detail. And if you decide you want to follow up, in the show notes, you'll find links to you know, the death Okay, ready for this Death of Justice? All right? And there's a podcast, there is

a substack. There is guess what a website okay, which looks like it says Deathojustice dot com, which I kind of appreciate. Right there, that's an interesting short But anyway, there'll be links in the show notes you'll be able to follow through. And also, I guess I'll get to this at the beginning of the show, just so I don't forget. Later November in Dallas the Lancer Conference, Paul Abbott will be there in person and presenting, and I'm

looking forward to his presentation. Now. Of course, if you go to Assassination Conference dot com, you can sign up if you use the discount code Ocelle ten. Whether you're going to be there in person or online, you can attend off. And if you're going there in person, it's going to be at the Fairmont Dallas Hotel, which is at seventeen seventeen North ackerd Street, Dallas, Texas, which is

conveniently located near the Plaza. So anyway, now that I've gotten all the ads and all of the references and told you go look at the show notes because most of you will catch the podcast. Anyway, go look at the show notes and you can follow up on Paul's work. Let's get to the conversation. So first of all, I know you're on the other side of the world, so to speak, and it's probably a different day than it is here. See for me, it's Sunday the seventh. I don't know, is it still Sunday there?

It's the Vietnam War and what resulted there and what wouldn't have happened if someone didn't score a head shot in Deialy Plaza. But that's my oversimplified motivation. What in the world brings an Australian guy to become interested in well, American history, the JFK assassination and the very particular lane that you've chosen here. Could you give us a brief idea of how it is you decided to do that and why.

just captivated me. And from there I read Garrison's on the trilogy Assassins because I watched JFK the movie, and really it was just a mystery that I've just been absolutely fascinated by ever since, to be honest, and there was only recently that I came to came to I guess contribute to the broader research community, But in terms of being an Australian, I think I think people need to know or I understand a little bit more the

President Kennedy's assassination was a world changing event. Australia is a country, you know, where we are very closely aligned with the you know, with the American experience, if you like our our countries getting along really well. We followed the US escalation into Vietnam as well. Australian troops went into Vietnam so early on. You know that that made me wonder if President Kennedy hadn't been killed, would Australia have become so involved, even more involved in the Vietnam

War as well? And that that impact on history I think has helped me to sty incredibly fascinated by Kennedy's assassination because the world literally changed in that moment, and you know, not not just if you're an American, but all over the world. You know, many people that have written fantastic articles about that because it is true.

of this stuff. Say in two thousand and three at the fortieth anniversary, there was a resurgence of interest in the men who killed Kennedy and that may have indeed been the time period. So what time period did you actually engage in that and get fascinated by it?

was the six part series. I remember that distinctly. So when all the extra extra episodes came out about the Johnson angle, until it all, I kind of watched it with a little bit of interest, but by then it was a little bit more well read on the topic and kind of just watched it out of curiosity to see if see if it's added to what I thought then Still, you know, a lot of the things in

that series, you know, still held up pretty well. I'm not I'm not so sold on the Gordon Island came claim after all this time, But other than that, I think it's a very interesting series to still watch after all this time.

have actually seen the Subruder film a lot more. Almost anybody in the world, if they've watched a documentary that was made in the past sixty years, has seen the Mormon photograph at least in passing that wasn't necessarily true. And even Gary Mack at that time was you know, sort of a conspiracy advocate when it was first filmed. And then he becomes the head of the Sixth Floor Museum.

There's a whole change there. The Sixth Floor Museum didn't exist when The Men Who Killed Kennedy was first filmed, et cetera. I mean, there's a lot to it to put it in its place in history and to say, like you know today, I mean back then, when I first saw it, I thought Badgeman was a very interesting thing.

Today I cannot comprehend how it is physically possible to create Badgeman legitimately and have it be anything other than a coincidental collection of different pieces of these silver chemicals that come together, because that was a polaroid photograph that Mary Mormon took. Mary Mormon Kramer, you know who I've spoken to also on the show. And that has changed over time. A lot of things did, and indeed I've

even claimed that. Look, when I was younger, I thought the whole French gunman scenario kind of worked, you know, maybe that made sense, et cetera. Some things have fallen apart over time. The general sort of you know, attitude of it prevails, but does the exact evidence. I mean, even the guy who's sitting there, you know, looking at these blocky pixels with the best computer technology available in the eighties, you know, clearly we have much better ways

to analyze photographs now, digitally and physically. I mean a lot of things have evolved since then. Let's say, yes, and those last three, of course, you know, you got the Johnson things, the last one, the men who killed Kennedy, the man who killed Kennedy Johnson. You have the Judy Baker episode, and then you have that other one, which is just I don't know what to call it, but it's just kind of out there, some of the more

out there things. And yes, indeed all of it has kind of been tested over time, changed a bit, et cetera. But it doesn't mean that it's a bad point for you to begin. Like I said, at one point, I thought the French gunman scenario was pretty good, you know, the idea of these French assassins, and maybe that was the real reason for it. And anyway, but you know,

we learn over time. Beverly Oliver is featured in those things too, and today I would tell you that I don't think she's a legitimate witness, although at one time I might have thought she was. Things have changed, just saying as we have to learn, and we've been given more access and five million, you know, documents now added. So that's where you began. Now, why is it that you decided to write the book and begin this journey and then tell us a little bit about what it is.

You know, you could mix right in there the sort of focus you have, which I find fascinating because it is one of the most underappreciated focuses I think in the case, which is, let's take a look at what we know happened, the procedures, the treatment of the alleged assassin who was never convicted but was convicted in the public's mind, and et cetera, et cetera. You know, you look at the process by which he was handled and

things like that. But but I want you to explain how did you go from being inspired to choosing to focus on that and sort of how it You know, the book and the website and the podcast and all of it. You know, why still why are we in that area? And tell us about it?

a continental republic. In the decade that followed it became an imperial superpower. Generals such as Curtis LeMay not only wanted to invade Cuba, but knew that there were short range missiles on the island arn't with nuclear warheads that they could not destroy because they were on mobile launchers. Their invasion could have led to a Third World War, and they wanted to go to war anyway. The War State by Michael Swanson reveals why and will show you

what President Kennedy was up against. For more information, the Warstate dot com.

dissects the many many fantastic claims. Judith very Baker in her own words.

it's in support of the book. I like the idea. I have always said every book should have this now, but not everybody agrees with my ideas. Anyhow, we were just starting to discuss how you transition from you know, getting interested, starting to read, and you read, you know, Jim Garrison's book. You saw JFK. You saw the Men of Kill Kennedy, Okay, and then you started organizing the folders. Maybe you could give a description about that again, you

know what folders? Are we talking about? The files? The transcripts from the grand jury? You know, were you responsible for indexing those, et cetera. And then tell us about how it ends up that you start writing about the death of Lee Harvey Oswald, the shooting of him. Well, not necessarily the death, but how about all the circumstances

that come together that end in his death. But maybe maybe that's a better description, but you'll you'll help me here, so tell us about that transition once again.

you know, the summer of nineteen sixty three, So that's kind of why I wanted to look through them. And as I was going through the folders, they were just there was like I think I ended up counting there were thirteen thousand pages in them. And what I started doing was really just scanning through each of these pages

to look for names and contact next. And as I was doing that, I was putting them on a spreadsheet, and the spreadsheet just kept getting longer and longer, and each name with a little bit of context how it which folder corresponded to and which page and everything like that. So really it became a resource that I was I was compiling for anyone, you know that I wanted to find out a little bit more about Garrison and the

work he did, not just in the sixties. But of course as well, I'll probably know he never he never stopped his interest in the there in any assassination case, and he continued to collect in the third decade newsletters and articles and things like that, and then he went into Scull and Bones and the Builderberg Group and John Lennon assassination Reagan and everything. Really, it's just it is

a fascinating resource. So I didn't go in in any particular with any particular into Bolster Jim Garrison or detract from him. I just wanted to see how much he collected and make it easy for other people to read through. So yeah, index spreadsheet, it's about forty thousand lines deep, but that's out there as well for people to use.

So really, when I was going through that exercise, there was one particular folder in there Chuck called I think it was the Plans and Security for Lee Harvey Oswald's Transfer.

That's literally the name of the folder. And as I was reading through it, it was basically almost know a verbatim copy of the Dallas Police investigation into itself into obviously how they went about handling Oswald's transfer from Dallas City Hall to County jail over that weekend of November twenty second, and what it consists of is a summary report by JW. Fritz, Captain Fritz, and literally statements so transcribes or transcripts of statements that witnesses to Oswold shooting made.

As well as that for Davits, there's even a copy of an architecturally drawn map of the basement at the time of the shooting. I don't know if you've seen it, but there's a lot of circles with numbers in them that correspond to an index within the Dallas Police investigation detailing where witnesses were standing at the time Volsewolds shooting. And I'm basically I looked back around to do this fold after I'd done the index, because they were just even at the time, I was really starting to catch

a lot of contradictions between people's own statements. You know, what they said to Dallas Police on the twenty fourth of November and then said three or four days later changed or was completely different.

For instance, Fritz is an interesting character because he breaks a four point security hold that they have on the body the subject, the guy you're supposed to be protecting. He is at the front point of a four point security formation and he walks away opens it up almost seemingly intentionally, you know. And this is where Ruby slides in. Now, you know, we can talk about you know, where the cops, you know, even the different ones, the Graves and the

other guy who's cuffed to him. We could talk about, you know, where these guys aware of him? Did they not see him because of the lights in their eyes, et cetera. But here's the problem. If they had maintained the integrity of the four points of protection, then it would have been much harder for Jack Ruby to swoop in and make that gut shot that eventually killed Oswald. Now I didn't see that until I had that life experience later. But I'm curious if you ever found that

addressed in these sorts of things. Did you see that? You know, Look, we see that Fritz actually violated the the formation for protection, which is something that not everybody sees when they see that film. But it's true. There's no way to you can't you can't challenge me on this. He broke a four point protection formation. It's just it's what do you call that self evidence? If you look at the film, there's no way to deny it. And a veteran who was running this, who was the lead guy,

should have known better. And did he ever get that? You know, did anybody even question that? I wonder, you know, stuff like that, And that's where you end up going when you go into this sort of thing. I mean, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, you know, I feel free, or if you have a different way of looking at it. But what do you think of that simple point there that I'm making.

because of how solid Roy Worm was. But that's about it. But what you're talking about with Fruits walking out first, and there are also car horns which which people have interpreted as being signals. But you know, we're looking through the footage and not just of the shooting but leading up to We actually have the benefit of about twenty minutes of footage in the basement showing the movements and people milling around and waiting. You know, that's the same

frame that it catches Oswald shooting. You know we have that, and you can hear car horns regularly throughout that footage. So I wonder if you know the the car horns weren't weren't needed as a as a signal because it was actually pretty clear that Ruby was in place, whether Fritz came out and observed the scene and saw Ruby was in place and was you know, therefore, when okay, right, we need to we can bring Oswald out now. And the only to get back directly to your point, Chuck,

the only way that was addressed. And this just it still makes me laugh. In the DPD investigation or sorry, the Warrant Commission, one of the key failings that they held the DPD two when it came to Oswald shooting was the fact that they changed the mode of transport that Oswald would be taken to the county jail and

at the last minute, which is true. I'm not sure if you work there, but a large armored truck was meant to be the way that Oswald would be driven the twelve blocks down to the county jail, but apparently it was Fritz himself, who said, well, you know, if we come under some kind of attack, then A then A, then an armor truck is going to be very hard

to maneuver, and you know, evaalue anything like that. So he said, let's just put him in the back of an unmarked squad car and we'll do it that quickly, and the truck will still be in the convoy will

just be decoy. So they the Warring Commission actually said that, you know, that was a key factor for for Oswald being shot, because as the car that he was being led to was actually still reversing into position, and I think that gives Fritz the excuse to hurry his pace to make sure that the car backs into where he would think it would need to.

three feet to shoot the man. So that's literally what he said. And I've got the audio of that, and it's he was only able to do that because you left the front wide open. So it just some fear outing.

the armored car wouldn't have fit down the ramp. Perhaps it would not have depending on you know, I really have not done the measurement myself, but I would I would go with that idea that maybe they did have to change things and last minute changes so that you don't have somebody who can be easily targeted, especially considering guaranteed there were some people who wanted to get their hands on this guy. Would not be unreasonable to make a last minute change. But I don't I still cannot

wrap my mind around us. Somebody who should have known better would have broke that formation. It's not as though he couldn't have sent somebody else to signal the car back up a little bit or something else. He should have maintained his coverage on the body, which would have narrowed the opportunity for you know, for Ruby at the very least. But there's also the issue and most people have focused on and about how Ruby got into position.

You know, did he make it down the bed that stairwell or not, because nobody saw him go down the ramp. All these things going on, and all of them are relevant. But at the same time, if you had, you know, the procedures nice and tight, it would have been much much more difficult and maybe impossible, depending on how well you did it, for them to pull off what they did. I mean, because remember, this is a gut shot, and how are you going to get at the guy's gut

if you have a physical person obstructing it. It's a little difficult. You could say, well, maybe he could have knocked Fritz out of the way or something like. It would have been a lot more difficult, I assure you, if he had remained in position. I mean, that is the front of the four points of protection. That's not even you know, the guy at the rear probably didn't move. I didn't observe him, actually, but I mean, I'm just saying the guy at the rear didn't move, and you

know that you can't shoot him in the back. It's just that simple. I mean, that's the idea. But okay, I'm so sorry, please.

encounter when analyzing this with the proper lens. Like I said that the shock of somebody dying on television is one thing. The shock of the fact that, you know, another weird thing that goes on here is maybe he wouldn't have to die with that gut shot, had they not, you know, put a basically an emergency person on him who started doing chest compressions when a guy's got a gut shot. A bad idea, you know, medically. Okay, there's a bunch of things that went on here, but yes.

he wasn't actually swarmed over. There was only Lavell who was handcuffed to him, and I think it was combust Billy Combas who stepped forward and because he was literally right behind level when Oswald was shot, and they carried Oswald back into the jail office, so he was out

of sight, out of the media. God knows what happened to him back there, because the emergency responder that you speak of, Fred Bieberdorf, that's the whole interesting tale as well, because initially but he wasn't even in their investigation, They

didn't even bother to talk to him. It was the FBI that finally got his story out for their investigation as the precursor for the warrant commission, and he came up with this whole big saga of it taking him minutes to cover twenty feet from the very back of the jail, you know the basement corridor there to get to the point where he thought the shoot had taken place. Took him minutes to get there, only to realize that no one was there laying on the ground shot. Oh,

they must be in the jail office. And he just had this big cock and ball minutes long saga of a story that said it took him to finally get to Oswald to assume that he was not breathing because he couldn't hear a heartbeat. Now in that jail office. Of course he wouldn't have because they had Jack Ruby in there as well, who was probably barking and hollering and asking the DPD why they're setting on him because

they know who he is. He's Jack Ruby. So there's just this whole, big, contrived set up where this poor Oswald he's been shot in the guart he's been taken out of sight of the media. Again, what the hell happened to him? It's anybody's gets you know, I did. Were they taking him back there to make sure that the job was finished and if it wasn't, did they do it themselves back in the jail office. We do not know, because unfortunately, again it's just one of those

aspects that was never questioned. Fritz, Why did you not just get Oswald into your car and having driven to park from hospital? No one in any of the investigations ever focused on that, And to me, that's that's the first key point here.

of response. So somebody might think that along with the rest of this, you know, uh, you know, motorcade if you will again, and sorry to use the term, but this you know, traveling thing for him to be able to be transferred, somebody might have wanted to include an ambulance on standby in case there was a rockus, in case there were injuries. So why wasn't there an ambulance because the guy you're talking about is a barely qualified first responder. Even this isn't a doctor, this isn't a

fully you know, equipped ambulance. This is one guy. So you know, okay, where's that part of the question. The person arranging this, didn't you think that there could be the potential for injuries of any kind even if the media got out of hand and started knocking each other over. You might need an ambulance for a knocked over media

person or you know what I'm saying. So there's that question, and people go, oh, come on, you're just being you know, you're thinking, okay, fair, But still there's a question that I would have asked, you know, how come there wasn't an ambulance on standby nearby because during the president's motorcade there were ambulances along the route. You know, just saying I'm not saying that he deserves the same protection. But if you know there's going to be crowds gathering, you know,

there's the potential for violence. Isn't it one of those standard procedures in public safety business to bring ambulances. I don't know, maybe just me, but what is your thought on that?

So if if Oswell was put in a properly equipped ambulance dry away and that ring is lack tighte was able to keep his system circulation going, he might have stood a chance of surviving. But of course way, I'm pretty sure that was never part of the plan.

Is it just that we don't know necessarily, But it does look kind of strange considering you know, it's not like you're talking about fifteen people in the police force. There there were I think at my count, there was about one thousand personnel in the DPD even back then, So it's not like you didn't have enough manpower available in the police department alone. You know, Fritz being the head of the Robbery Homicide division, of course that's his prisoner.

But it doesn't mean that he'd be the only guy who could be involved in the transfer of said prisoner, because now you have multiple issues coming up, not just the fact that he's a homicide suspect, but now you have public safety issues as I'm bringing up. And yes, indeed they call that building, or they used to anyway, the Dallas Department of Public Safety, right, So you know, I'm just asking what I think are reasonable questions. But all these things only come up if you analyze the minutia.

So and meanwhile, we're now talking about his death heavily. But there's a lot of things, as we're pointing out here, leading up to that incident, and you know, there's a lot of planning. There's a lot of other things. I mean, we could get into the lineups, the way he was treated when he was charged. All those things are relevant because they did happen. They were part of something that was,

you know, happening in real time. At that time. The world was suddenly watching because that's the first time the news went live in America on television anyway, you know, and I do believe the world was watching. It was something you know, interesting, and it was it captured the attention, you know, the entire weekend, right from Friday on all the way till they buried him on Monday. Kennedy you know, and well Kennedy, Tippett, and Oswald, I guess all actually

buried on Monday one way or another. You know, it's it's relevant. So anyway, so you dig into this, what are you gaining by doing this besides you know, opening up the history and saying, let's see what the detail is because a lot of assumptions are made. Why can't we educate those assumptions better? So what what is your ultimate goal with you know, death to justice, the shooting of the rby Oswald being a key element. Uh and of course the title of your podcast and and your website.

What is it that you're after here exactly?

revealed at the time. We can go into that if you want as well, Jock, But I really just want to highlight Oswald shooting as another facet of the of the Kennedy assassination that's worthy of its own sensible research, because to me, when I started to get a little bit more serious about it, really I could the most I could find was kind of, you know, on the I guess you'd call them on the fringe of the JFK assassination community. I mean, the most exhaustive books written

about the Kennedy assassination Jim Douglas's Jfkney Unspeakable. You know, I go back a bit further, anton Son's Conspiracy. They they actually don't give all that much coverage to the Oswald shooting. Conspiracy probably does a little bit more than than any other book, but it really, it just it's just so been criminally, as far as I'm concerned, just

been so undercovered. And look, will we ever find out who was behind the Oswald shooting ultimately, because we know that Jack Ruby was positioned to be the shooter, but you know, the elements that were behind it. I'm starting to think that I really didn't have to be such a big, grand conspiracy, you know.

I don't know if you know about this, but Detective Lewis Miller in the footage of the Oswald shooting, he's the only man that can be seen not wearing a hat, and he comes in to cover over Jack Ruby. Literally he comes Jack Ruby's by that point hatless head with some kind of black garment. When you slow down the footage, it is very clear to see. So that to me was when I found out out. I thought, well that

there you go. That's that's evidence of one person, at least one person in the DPD who knew that Oswald was about to about to be shot and they needed to be ready to for whatever reason cover up his

shootor so. It just I think if people understood how how the Oswald shooting actually took place, you know, from there, that opens up another kind of paddic if you like, field to the JFK assassination, and if some more sensible research is done on it, because my book does not have all the answers, and nor was it ever meant to. It was just literally meant to be a point to highlight how little we've actually come to come to know

about the topic. You know, if more sensible research has done about it, then who knows how it could be linked to what happens obviously on November the twenty second, We don't know, but at least at least there's a photo grund there to some more research, for sure, and that's what I want.

doing it just then and there. Yeah, okay, opportunity is clear. And we talked about how opportunity was made easier by the behavior of the people doing the protection. And we still don't know exactly, in my mind, how it is he even arrived in the position he arrived in, you know, having been over there, you know, right over wiring money minutes before, just down the alleyway from the DPD building. You know, there's a whole thing going on there. But Ruby sucks as a hitman. He's not a good hitman.

I mean, I'm just speaking practically, you know. And people say, well, that's that's proved positive a mob involvement. Now, if the mob was going to send somebody to kill somebody important, they're not using Jack Ruby. I'm sorry, they're just not. They want a guy who's going to get the job done. And Ruby doesn't have the best track record. He's the kind of guy who will fight. He is the kind of guy who will get physical anytime, throw his body

into a situation. Yes, but his track record doesn't show me that he's an efficient killer. And you know, having grown up in the same area where Roy De Mayo was from, got to tell you that guy was a serial killer that got lucky when he found the mob, you know, and there are people like that. I mean, you know, I grew up in New Jersey and in the New York area, so believe me, I haven't understanding, let's say, of some of the people that were proficient

killers in that business, you know. And I may discuss that at Lancer this year, by the way, just spoiler, but because I feel very badly that people don't understand what the mafia is, so I'm going to do that during my presentation. But anyway, it's fun to be said.

a risk on Ruby's part. But I think it might have even been as simple as Ruby just coming in to take any kind of shots from Oswald, and because Oswald was rushed out and out of the view of the media, that you know, to be sure that the job was finished, and then it was done in the jail office. I think that that literally or Ruby could have been used to it was just to come in. Apparently he was taking a whole bunch of his was that what's the drug? Some kind of weight losses like speed?

Basically now, yeah, he prescribed he was in some kind of state, you know, and people do say that. So I think he literally was a trigger puller and to be sure the shot was fatal, they was Oswald into the jail office and made sure of it.

do that and it's plausible. Hey, look, some prisoner just decided to take it upon themselves, you know, pretty much like the Ruby story. This guy took it upon himselves himself as a patriotic American to protect you know, Jackie from testifying. I mean, you know, the weirdness of the explanation for why one loan nut knocked off another loan nut. You know, I don't buy that either. But the idea

that he was like a mob hitman is stupid. It's just that that's not the guy you send, that's not the weapon he would use, and that's probably not the opportunity he'd even take. But throwing a bunch of things at him, Maybe he was just one part of a larger plan. Whether they decided to let him live past that gut shot or not. There might have been multiple attacks on him and it would have been like, hey, we couldn't help it. The guy was going to die no matter what we did, you know. But it just

so happens that the first gut shots succeeded. And I mean, it is Texas, and don't forget there's belt buckles there, Okay, just saying I've seen people get struck in a belt buckle before when somebody aims at their center mass. You know, there's a lot of risks you've take in there by not shooting somebody in the heart or the head. I mean, you know, that's just the more efficient way to go anyway in the use of a thirty eight. It's a

common firearm. It's so strange though, because when you look and you slow down that footage, there's a lot of things going on there that are difficult to explain. You know, the way that people are turning. How fast did you know Graves or Lavelle try to loose themselves because they were both cuffed to them on each side, which you know, I don't think was the smartest it.

all words to that effect. And that's bass because like Pappus was standing right next to Ruby literally as he shot Oswald and recording recording it. You know, it's that famous audio that we've that we've heard of the shooting. You can't hear any any such thing being uttered. Who else? Gary Delone apparently he was recording from front on as well.

And I'll before the audio the video. Sorry, So all these just completely they can completely debunkable contentions have have just been allowed to kind of just just hang over this this incident, and it's just not right, you know, So just to clearing the record is probably the most important. Man. And I was saying to here before, Chuck, but I didn't set out to write a book for sake of it. I just all these things that I was finding that

I could not find recorded anywhere else. You know, witnesses, names, people that have never even been You can't even find them all. Uh, you know Mary Farrell, some of these people. You know, it's just lost to history. So it was all about just bringing it all back out into the in the name somewhat. And yes I do definitively describe how Ruby was able to get into the basement as well, so you know, because that was always very contentious to right.

my strongest suit here. But the thing is, you know, even when people talked about the whole okay, so related to Ruby and audio, uh people say, and and even when I spoke to d A, you know, former Wade in the early nineties, you know, he had to tell everybody that story about do you know who told me? Who corrected me about that whole you know, uh freak Cuban movement thing. You know, he loved to tell everybody. Jack Ruby was in the back of the room correcting

him then. And it's funny because I listened to that audio and there's more than one voice that comes in at that time making that correction, and people for years challenged me on that. I said, no, just Jack Ruby, and it wasn't just Jack Ruby. Ruby's voice is there. I can hear it, and I know it's Ruby's voice, but there's another voice. There's another smoother or deeper voice along with his that also says the same thing, and

it sounds like, yes, it is closer to the microphone. Good, good point, closer to the microphone that's recording at that time. That piece of footage when Da Wade is saying, oh, he was a remember of the you know, free frea Cuba movement or something, and the correction comes from the audience and it's two voices. Now I don't know who the other person was, but yeah, go ahead.

the press. You know, he broke at interviews, you know, for people like Pappus and who else what was his name, Glenn Duncan from Gordon Clendon's car Old, you know, so he really he was very busy making sure he was known and seen that at City Hall across that weekend. That makes you wonder, you know, I was was was he meant to have taken a shot at Oswald as as the midnight press conference after it had at least been charged with with Tippet shooting, you know, because he was so.

beyond just when he was first arrested. Even when they're moving in from room to room, you can hear him, you know, shouting things, and that Ruby's just kind of hanging out there, you know, looking around, watching, and you know, mostly that's excused by well, you know, Ruby was kind of a hanger on with the police, which is a bad description. It's just that, Look, if you're working in the gray or black market in a city, if you don't know and pay off some cops, then you're not

doing your job. So Ruby obviously was gonna, you know, we've heard the stories, get bottles of boo and a sandwiches, and yeah, that's what you do when you're running a criminal thing in a city with a lot of cops. You make a bunch of cops think of you as their buddy, your friend. You hook them up with stuff. You know, if you're in prostitution, you hook them up with hookers. If you got you know, a bar, you hook them up with booze. If you got strippers, you

give them private shows. That's what you do. So Ruby was doing his job as a gray market or black market guy in a city like Dallas. That's why he's

hanging around the police and so familiar with them. But that doesn't explain why he's you know, literally milling around with all the media clogging the hallways, you know, wheeling in these giant cameras, which were not small things back then, wheeling in these giant cameras so they could broadcast live and follow what's happening live and the midnight press conference we all know about, but there was a lot more to it, and there was constant footage, and he's in

a ton of it over the weekend, uh, you know, and that's got to be relevant because you know what he was there just I'm interested. I'm interested, and decided on Sunday, I'm going to shoot him. I got a problem with that idea. I don't know. It seems like he was stalking him over the weekend. What are your thoughts on that. Yeah, I.

Ken and I do. I do track them in my book. Very he's he's all over the place, and probably more interestingly, he's in different states of mind as well. You know, if you talk to his rabbi, he was in in a real state of grief. His sister as well, he's

living in Dallas, noted that he was grief stricken. He had that meeting with Harry Elson and Kay Coleman in the car in a garden very close to the city Hall, and then after that he's knocking around on a twist board in one of the newspaper offices, you know, him and his brother. I think we're starting to or had tried to get up and running in Dan Dallas's side. Sob was all over the place, all over the shop

physically and mentally. Yeah, the evidence of him stalking Oswald, yeah, I think it's there and there's definitely a case for it. I don't think I'll tell you this, Chuck. I don't think that he was outside of Dallas City Hall on the morning of Sunday, November the twenty fourth, where he's seen as looking disheveled and interested, and he was asking the guys in the news truck outside, you know, if if for Oswald's transfer has taken place or when it's happening.

I don't I don't really go with that theory because Jack Ruby was an impeccable dresser. He wouldn't have let himself be seen, you know, looking side disheveled as these guys, you know, people like Red Walker, whose couple of guys in the truck out front. So I think he was at the back of his apartment for that morning and taking phone calls, you know, being being ready to get to get whether he was being coaxed, or you know he was you know, he needed a bit of nudging,

a bit of convincing. I theorized who was positioned perfectly in City Hall to be able to lead him, get him in position at the Western Union, to give himself an alibi. Which is an important point because Karen Carlin was apparently so desperate for money that weekend, because Ruby had shut down his clubs out of grief and respect for the president her and her husband, I asked Ruby for an advance of her pay, and the story goes that it was one of the nights over that weekend.

I think it was the Friday night Ruby set up to meet the Carlins of the current Cel club to give them their money. But he didn't show. No one was there, so they still needed their money, and when they contacted him again, he said, well, good, I will send you a transfer. I'll allow you some money from Western Union tomorrow morning. So was that part of his intention to be in the vicinity of City Hall, and therefore they take them with the emotion of the occasion,

to spontaneously know something about Oswald. But but there were certainly people that were writing for Ruby to band position, and that's when the when the transfer got underway, right. I think it was as simple as that.

jail time. And why is that? There's this thing in Texas law where pretty much, you know, it's hard to explain, but it's sort of like, if you can justify the reason why you killed somebody, they'll convict you and give you no time. And that was not exclusive to Texas law, but kind of a unique thing in American justice, and you can see it. Yeah, And the weird thing is, you know, that's not too you know, that's not too

far flung from it. And the idea is it's another shooting case, right, crime of passion, where he shoots the you know, the golf professional, right and all that. And here's the thing. Ruby might have thought he was going to get off, which would explain some of the weird statements he made immediately after about kind of being confused, thinking, oh, you guys aren't going to really break my chops over this, right.

killed the Kami, you killed the president. I think people have sympathize with you. Would not have been in the rational pitch to Jack Rubin, you know, who also had already experienced probably not getting arrested by the cops and everything else in that city because he took care of the cops again. So he's thinking look, guys, I take care of you. You shouldn't arrest me. And besides, I

didn't really do anything wrong. You know, it almost starts to make sense some of the weird statements now when he goes completely off the why you know, off the reservation later talking about people being slaughtered outside of the jail cell and everything. You know, I've got my questions about that, and I really do feel like that interesting

visit from that doctor might have caused that. But that's yet another issue and goes outside of the death of the army Oswald but does go into his convicted killer. So there you have it. And even the weirdness of Bellie's defense initially about this whole you know, the lights and he had some sort of brain damage and reaction you know, based on it, like you know, epilepsy, like

an epileptic attack almost. I mean, yes, I'm explaining it almost like it sounded coming out of bell Eye's mouth on TV, which you know, was sort of like, well, you know, he's damaged and he just reacted and this happens. Yeah, you know, a lot to it, a lot to unpack, but maybe that's book number two for you. What happened to Ruby afterwards, I don't know, you know, did you cover it in this by the way.

So we start with the context of obviously November the twenty second and how Oswald came to be in custody, But then I really really take a very deep dive, very quickly, lay by layer in terms of how the shooting was reported so viewed and everything like that, the investigations, and then start to unpack the witnesses and the media, the Dallas police, you know, the top of the ramp

where all Vaughn was. I really really dive into that and exonerate him for how Ruby could have entered up there and therefore going to where will be really into the building through and go into minute detail because yeah, like we've like we've said, there are just so many aspects to this and not one thing that I think a lot of people don't know is that the cover up was was or the fix was in straightaway on Jack Ruby as well, because there was you know, there

are all all these statements attributed to him up on the fifth law Jail, Pat Dean s I didant. Patrick Dean contended that Ruby was very open with how he came in through the down the main Street ramp when no one else, including Forest Souls and the three other detectives,

vouched for that at the time. So Pat Dean is putting all these words in Ruby's mouth from the get go, and then then all these other statements about you know, Ruby saying he never wanted to kill Oswald when he saw him smirk, you know, on camera, or smirk at the press conference. You know, all those things were stuffed into Ruby's mouth, not very tight corroboration to back it up. And I think that was because they were always going

to make sure that he owned for killing Oswald. You know, there was not going to be any chance of him beating it in two or three years. You know, it was a crime of passion. So I dive into that. So my presentation that JFK answer, it's really about promoting that they're not my book or anything like that. It's promoting the case as something that ought to be taken seriously, as an undercovered aspect of the of the to the

Kennedy assassination. And I want to ignite Sparks and other people to maybe take an interest in it, because you know, when more people are doing digging and applying their different perspectives on things that I think that But you know, when everyone's got right intent, you know they're driven by the truth, not by their own agenda or anything like that, they're not not operating to some pre determined conclusion, then I think that's where a lot of good work can happen.

So it's it's it's going to be good. It's going to be there all overview of the what was wrong with the shooting, how it happened, and obvious, I think the fix was in and bought a very taut circle of DPDA personal for.

And I have illustrations in the book as well, and probably less this goes out, Chuck, the book is just waiting to be re released as a hardback version, so yeah, it might not be so readily available right now, but that that will be out in the coming weeks. And yeah, it's a book that tells the story of the Oswald shooting. And yeah, it gives some gives some diagrams in there, it goes into granular detail. But the book aside, I've also just started, as you said, the book cast, and

that's that's really I've already it's already world out. I've had some fellow researchers on to talk about November twenty second and Oswald's background. So people up Paul Blow Johnny Cans. I've had a great chat with him and Scott Read. We touched on the Walker assassination attempt, all those things, which just kind of set the context for obviously how Oswell come today and police custody and end up dying.

But the book is basically me just going into running in the order of the actual book, but in podcast format. So I'll be playing some you know, audio clips and going into a little bit more detail, you know, on various facets of the shootings. So fair enough, just because I just want to want to keep it out there and give it a profile.

Uh you know, I lost count somewhere around there. Uh three hundred and yeah, you don't need to buy them all, but I can give you a shelves worth of them to buy and this would go on it. Uh maybe two shelves at this point, but still it's worth it. And uh, you know, quick curiosity though, since you go into Oswald's background, have you ever looked into uh, you know, Ernest Tittabitt's book and him as an individual. I'm one of the few people who's actually interviewed him, uh, you know,

on a podcast. But I find his insights extremely interesting.

recommend your work. I'm looking forward to seeing your presentation and got to tell you, yeah, it's absolutely one of those things that, you know, if you really want to get into the circumstances that occurred here, it's important to remember that. Indeed, you know, Oswald wasn't the only person who died that weekend, obviously, but he died that weekend as well, and the circumstances of that have forever shaped perception regarding the assassinate of the thirty fifth president. One

way or another. You can argue that point. Cool and uh, you know, Paul, I really appreciate you taking the time to do this with me, and I hope a lot more people, you know, get involved with your work and follow it. So thanks, And if there's anything you want to say in closing the floor is yours, sir.

I'll have copies of my book there. But now that's all m by the bar. I just want to yeah, make some make some fellow in your research and yeah, just carry on the good constructive conversations about that weekend that changed the world. You know it did in an on an Australian sign that it really did. So we need to we need to keep keepe the you know, the lot shining on this topic. And as I signed my book, you know, if we do that, then the people behind the you know that they're relying on the

hook of the truth. That's important.

go to the restaurant where Ruby had a seat. They had a marker there saying, you know, this was Jack Ruby's table.