Get ready.
January fifteenth, twenty twenty five, allegedly according to that thing we call a calendar. And yeah, I had to pause there for a second because I almost said twenty twenty four. But it's not so not a replay if you're on the live stream, if you're at Ochelly dot com or using one of the radio apps, welcome to it. But probably this is gonna get loaded into heavy, heavy rotation for replay. Why well, we have talked about it a
few times over the past few months. Larry Hancock's Larry Hancock and actually co authored by David boy Lin, Okay, which is a name you might recognize from the last Lancer conference. The name you might recognize because he's been on the show before as well. Of course, Larry has been on the show for years, and I talked recently about extremely proud I am that that has been along with me for a long ride here, and I went for a long ride with this book, The Oswald Puzzle.
It is available now, okay, and I'm glad it is.
I know.
The guy's over at Lone Gunman and Dallas actually beat me to it, and that's fine. I've been sick, I know, and it is what it is. But on the other hand, I'm happy that I've been along for the entire ride the creation of this book. And I'm going to tell you this now. I always recommend all of Larry's books, so obviously I'm going to tell you that this one belongs on your shelf too. But it's also an essential
book when it comes to understanding the JFK case. Now that's something I've never said about any of Larry's books, like they're great, they're helpful, they are recommended. Yes, absolutely, they're in the top, you know, the top of the game, that's for sure.
But I'm telling you.
Now this one is necessary. It's gonna upset some people, I think, and rightfully so. Look, Larry Hancock's gonna explain I think a little bit about the evolution of the book. Again, we talked about it on the show before a little bit. But now that I have it in my hands, I'm telling you now I've been able to and.
Here here's a big piece of spoiler work. Here.
When you look at the back of this and you see that, you know, Dick Russell gave a gave a little little blurb of the book. Of course, we see you know, praise for Larry Hancock on the back of the book.
It's Skyhorse book, right, Yeah, this is a Skyhorse book. Yeah, that's right.
I do recall that that was sent to me when I was half out of it by Skyhorse. But anyway, this thing is essential and it's great. It's got that picture of Oswald on the front cover of a picture you might be very familiar with, and a composite bunch of photos commonly seen on the internet as like, you know, the Lee Harvey Oswald experience on the internet and all that. You get to the photo section of this thing, though, you might get a little surprise. Anyway, I'm not gonna
talk about that. I'm gonna let these guys talk about it. I've got Larry Hancock and David Boiling with me. So first, Larry, how you doing tonight?
Oh? I'm doing good.
I'm as as usual as time. I've already ready for spring. So but I'm okay now, just anticipating.
Right, well, believe it or not, even though I'm sitting in Georgia. Larry, We're gonna freeze next week again. Yeah, you know, like snow even now, you know how weird that is for Georgia. That's gonna shut down the state. Okay, that's chaos. The second half bitch of snow hits the ground in Georgia, so I'm gonna have to stay inside somehow again. But whatever. Anyway, we're halfway through the month of January and they're shipping this out what today?
I actually started shipping yesterday. Oh yes, people are getting it today. I've had several people right that they received it today and they're starting to go through it.
Excellent.
And you know, here's the thing about this book. I'm gonna tell you. You can use it as a reference book, okay, depending on how your mind works with the case. But also you can just read it in the order it's given. Introduction by res Rex Bradford. He also participated heavily in
the editing, and David boil IND's with us. Now we haven't given a chance to say hi to David yet, but David, just how you're doing tonight and anything you want to jump ahead of with this book, like right away, first thing I got to say about this, or you want to just tell us how you're doing.
That's fine too.
Either way. That's as usual this time of year. We're all recovering from something like you are, you know, just skinting over the flu, got a little bit of a cough, throats pretty decent, so I'm able to converse.
Yeah, your throats out better than mine, feels, I'll tell you that. But that's okay. We'll get through this together.
Okay.
So, Larry, we have already talked about the evolution of the book all right on other shows. How do you feel about the way it came out, the completion of it when you got it in your hands first, which you obviously got in your hands before everybody else, And I mean, how do you feel about it? What do you think about it personally? Considering that you've done a lot of writing, a lot of presentation, free books, you know, re issues of books already. I mean, how many would
someone would have talked? Has already been reissued?
What?
Three times? Correct?
Three version?
Just three versions?
Okay, I'm just saying I'm not complaining. I'm just saying that, you know, it's been around long enough, and you've got tipping point, and I mean, you know you've had to address this a lot, and finally to sort of reevaluate Oswald excuse me, kind of a tough thing to do.
No, Yeah, I like it because I think it's it's something I have not done before. The books that I've done before are kind of like the Conspiracy in a way.
They're all over the place.
Because you have to be, because there are so many different elements you have to deal with, you know, whether it's Daly Plaza, you know, you're you're going all over the country, You're going with different groups, You're going with different uh with a different time frame, what happened before, what happened.
After, and so they're all composites.
The nice thing about this book and focusing on Oswalt is it it's inherently more structured. You know, you're just you're you're just looking at one person and the conspiracy eventually in the book, and the book does you know it's not all conspiracy. It's all Oswald plus a conspiracy overlaid on Oswalt. So from that that standpoint, I like the way it reads UH And I think readers who maybe one of one of the things we've got to admit, and David and Ill both say this book was not
necessarily written for the conspiracy community, right. It was written for a more general community that has always been interested in the assassination, but in Oswald. So it's it's written for a broader community.
Right, And look, and here's here's the thing I'm going to address directly with you, which is going to sound a little confrontational, but bear with me. If you go with the time periods. Okay, and you and I have talked about this before. When you're working in a particular time period, you're influenced by that time period based on what's sort of happening. Okay, And you got to admit
there's a big change post fortieth anniversary. Everybody talks about a big change since the fiftieth you know, that was the big marker. But I don't see it that way. I've always said that once we hit the fortieth things changed a lot because technology, you know, a certain things up. We had a greater worldwide sort of connection here. You know, you have the Australian group, you have the UK group,
now much bigger than it was back then. It has all grown, but it's grown in an atmosphere where it was influenced by its time.
Right.
You have the post ARRB sort of reality that sets in around the fortieth anniversary. You have some innovations that occur, you have the conferences being much more publicly aware or the public more aware of them. I should say all of that stuff started to happen in my mind after the fortieth anniversary. Now you're working in that time period, so you go from there to the fiftieth. Yeah, that's
a big milestone. It's a celebration sort of because there's been a lot of work in fifty years since the event itself, et cetera, etc. But still a lot of people thought it was over at that point.
It is not.
And these atmospherees shifted now. I'm trying very very hard not to put any descriptions on them, but maybe you could. What do you think about the past twenty years? And in my mind this might have not been a necessary book in two thousand and three. You advance to twenty
twenty five. This is necessary now to reevaluate this character who has been discussed, maligned, demonized, turned into a saint, turned into a double oh seven figure, turned into a fan fiction figure of all kinds of romantic intent, and d D da Da da Dad and all that nonsense has gone on. A realistic, solid evaluation was needed from somebody who could do it, and in my mind, you're one of the.
Few people who could do it.
So here we are, and this is why it's essential. By the way, if you're interested in the case. I didn't say if you're interested in the conspiracy, because I agree with Larry, this is useful to anyone who is interested in this character in history.
That's it.
And there's information in here that I've not seen before. Okay that I've not seen articulated. I've seen suggested, but I've actually seen it late doubt. And I'm not going to tell you what it is. I don't want to spoil anything for anybody. But you go section to section. Also, each section is named rather explicitly, so you could utilize it based on the section of interest. I was particularly
interested in Mexico City. I was particularly interested in the New Orleans reevaluation, etc. But Larry, talk to me about the time period here, the past twenty years. Do you think it changed from two thousand and three or a mile off on that?
Oh, it definitely changed, Chuck, And I think when you're talking about this, you're right. Maybe the word I would use would be eras eras you know, what era are you working in?
You know, that's.
Immediately after the assassination. For ten twenty years you have the skeptical error, where were those people that are doing the work are consistently finding problems and consistencies whatever with the warrant commission.
Everything is deconsious, the deconstruction and guessing game from the deconstruction, right, Okay, go ahead.
And maybe that is that's that's a good term. They are deconstructing, which means you're pulling it all apart. And what you do when you pull everything apart is it's all mysterious. You know, everything is questionable. All you know is you didn't get the real story, So everything is questionable.
Everything's full of mystery, you know.
And that that keeps going on through the Garrison era when we add more deconstruction and more mystery to it, more names, i mean, the names and suspects that come out in the first decade are added to and that's what happens for three or four decades. It's a continual We're deconstructing more, we're finding more persons of interest, you know, and things continue to get more mysterious.
There are more leads now.
The seventies and eighties provide us with you know, reasons for skepticism in the government's explanation, you know Nixon, the hearings in the Senate, the hearings in the House, the official government record expands. It isn't all made public. But even in the eighties, going into the eighties, we got Iran contract, we got oh wait a minute, there's a lot of questions we could ask here, and that expands it again, that universe in not twenty years.
Right, yeah, And at that point it's growing. I mean, it's the conspiracy in essence, isn't growth stage right? Things are getting more complex and more complex. And what really happens is then we get to the nineties, we get the JFK Records Act, we get the ARB, and for the next twenty years we have an exponential growth and again another round of skepticism and more complexity because we're seeing inside things. Things that were mysterious four are no
longer mysterious. But then we have a whole set of new things that are So it's kind of like round one skepticism, Round two, more skepticism. And by this time we've got an awesome amount of detail. We're almost to the point by the beginning of this century where you can take any set of data that you want and make it be whatever you want because there's so.
Much of it and everything is so interconnected.
See I borrow from Henry Hurt and say, it's the reasonable doubt era where you have reasonable doubts. And I don't mean to say that it's just reasonable doubt against the government's case.
I mean it's reasonable doubt in all.
Directions, Okay, which opened things up wider for that turn of the century. I talked about where I feel as though that twenty years is different. So but but I call that the reasonable doubt era.
Again. Apologies, but go ahead, Larry.
Now there we go.
Further, and I think you know it's a commons to stay that for history. Let's talk about real history. Yes, we pretty much know the real history on almost any subject, but certainly anything that involves crime, conspiracy.
You know that's somewhat sensational.
It takes fifty to sixty years for people to start writing real history, right.
Historians know this.
It's sort of like, you know, well, see why might not major writing about politics today because it's politics, it's not history.
You can't see it yet, right.
And that's my cut in here for again to mention the late Roger Remington, right, because he was a historian that I interacted with, and he was a trained historian technically that was you know, that was what he was trained for. Aquinas college, not a big college. No no, no, no, no, I don't care about that. But what he taught me about was the idea of perspective and that was literally the French word for it and all that it was supposed to be. You can't write about a historical event unl.
Twenty five years later, well, this thing called modern contemporary history was sort of introduced into the literature stream. Let's call it, you know, Rise and Paul, the third Reich, right, And that was the principle I worked with for a little while to say, well, this is why all these mistakes are going to be made. And I patiently sat and waited and said, this is a good process. This is still the investigative era in my mind. In that
first forty years, that's all investigative. It's not any conclusion. Anybody who said I've got the case solved, this one had the case solved.
You're lining yourself because.
There's a lot of things that are not going to be within our grasp no matter what.
But anyway, and you begin to realize that, I think reality sets in and once you get to the stage we are I think most people that are involved with this kind of like we have ninety five percent of the information that we're going to get or maybe even
bigger percentage. And know there really probably aren't any smoking gun records that survived and you know that you but I think what has happened in this last decade, and David is responsible for a lot of this in the areas that we've been touching, is there has to be a time when you stop making puzzle pieces and you start putting them together right, and you start fitting them, and there has to be a point in time when you begin to make use of all the data that
people did manage to collect and you start going, well, these pieces really fit together, and great, they are consistent, there's continuity. This piece of the puzzle fits together. Yeah, are there pieces that are left over that are you know, outside the puzzle. There are, but it's the ones that you can actually start putting together and go, oh, this paint's kind of like a self corroborating picture because the
piece is fit. There has to be a point in time if you want real history where the pieces actually fit. And from our perspective, that's what David and Bill Sempach and Jeff Morley and a lot of people have started doing over the last decade is providing the puzzle pieces that fit together. You know, that where you can eliminate some of the mystery. Yeah, is there this individual that you'll never understand and you don't know how to fit
into the puzzle that remained suspicious forever. Yeah, there's some of those, but you have to focus on what you actually get to the point of being comfortable with what does fit and what story does that tell you? From the history history totally complete. No history is ever totally complete. So I guess maybe to answer your question, I think during the last decade we have reached the point where we can actually see some history. It's it's you know,
it's closing in. Things are fitting together, things that you didn't even know two decades ago when I first started writing, I didn't know most of this stuff right, and it's somebody asked me, well, how do you know that you're not cherry picking? And the answer to me is, I know I'm not cherry picking when I start finding things I wasn't looking for. If I just find things i'm looking for, I've got to wonder if if I'm behind the thing, you know, if I'm driving it, or if
the information is driving it. And more recently in the past few years, especially with what David's done in regarding New Orleans and Miami, like, these were things that we never knew and suddenly they're there and they fit. That's a real crucial phase.
So at this point I want to bring David into the conversation directly because I want to know what era you jumped in, David, and see what you have to say about what we said so far regarding this these different eras sort of and the evolution of the case, because you come in at a very strange time where I took notice of you, and you know, I know
you had to have been involved before that. When I took notice of you, for sure, other people started coming to going, you know, this guy's doing some stuff here which is a little different. He's obviously combing over things that other people missed, and I go, oh, well, this is a guy I need to talk to. But next thing I knew is everybody knew who you were, and I was like, okay, okay, this makes sense, but when did you come into this Exactly this case, just.
Before Oliver Stone's movie came out, believe it or not, I was doing a lot of reading and then when all of a Stone's movie came out.
All of a sudden, ah, okay.
We're able to get a lot more documents. But back then, a lot of the things weren't online, so we had to request them.
If you remember, yes, the riff numbers, and you had to know what you were looking for and.
Oh yeah, so you submit a request the National Archives, and every US citizen was allowed one hundred free pages. Sometimes they gave you more, you know. So I tried to get like Lauren Hall's testimony, a bunch of things like that, and I also recruited for all of my family members. They all of a sudden started getting packages from the National Archives. So, I mean, that's what was what it was like back in the days. You had to get the hard copy and you can only get
so much. So I think everybody I ever met would eventually get their hundred pages and the mail from the National Archives, right, And that's when the Archives they were very They were help very response, very responsible, very helpful.
Even if you made a mistake, okay, and I made a couple of mistakes requesting stuff.
They helped me.
Actually, you know, I actually get a phone call because you'd give them a phone contact number, and you know, we had we had landlines back then, folks, and they would call you and talk to you like, look, you kind of have a little some off.
Do you mean this or this? And they would fix it.
You know, now you didn't get it right, they might just send it back to you if you send it to you know, paper through the mail. And the other weird thing I want to I want to see if you know, because this seems like you and I came into the case same time, which is funny to me, but because eighty eight is when I come in, twenty fifth anniversary, a lot of media awareness.
That's me. But you know, the next thing I know is Oliver Stone hits.
I'm then aware of the you know, release the damn files of people, you know, and I'm going, yeah, I'm with them, let's go, let's get it out, let's get it on, let's.
Get to it. Uh. And that's the era I came in.
But the weird thing was you got frustrated by it too, because your hundred pages could get eaten up by you know, multiple copies of the same stupid you know, you think you're getting a file of some special importance. This person's personal file contains four copies of the same damn newspaper, clipping over and over again. And also you know three four blank pages for no reason. So you're you know,
you get copies of those blank pages. Thanks and the trans middle thing telling you what it is you got, uh you recall all that.
Too, right?
Oh yeah, get some that just say referred to an second agency, another agency, really, you know, so the CIA would refer to the FBI, the FBI refer to the CIA. Sorry, we can't, you know, release this document. So it was also the age of early the internet too, so we're able to communicate with a lot of people back then, you'd be surprised to would you know, send an email communicating with you know, like Mary Farrell My email back
and forth with her, and Gordon Winslow, Gaydon Fonzie. You know a lot of these people were available via you know, via email back then or small little groups, so they would call it back then, Yeah.
Ed Lopez even was available to some people, not everybody, uh, you know, depending if you were in the like Solandria group, which I had been tangentially involved in. Somehow my email got in there the first email address I had, uh, and I'm I'm on a list with people that I couldn't believe I was on a list with. And they were starting to share documents and they would just be
sort of attached. And that was back in the days when you know, you couldn't you didn't have a scanner at home, right, So everybody's going to places like Kinko's or whatever and scanning this stuff in and we're yeah, we're in the rudimentary stage of sharing these documents. Now today it's a lot easier. Even the National Archives allows you to see a lot of stuff instantly when it's released,
which is nice. But then again it also becomes suspect, right because you're sitting there going, well, if they're making this available you know this easily, then how important is it? And a lot of times again it's still garbage or
it's something you've already seen somewhere else. And then you had the change in the classifications right where stuff you know becomes classified again, which wasn't class you know, and back and forth and now you're not even allowed to know what it is you might have in your hands. You might have a classified document in your hands, you don't even know it. Weird stuff, and that sort of put people off the document searches, and then other people became document hounds.
Yeah that's me.
There you go.
So that's where you definitely come in as doing major work. I mean, do you think you were just curious around the Oliver Stone time and then you found that niche like a few years later or what.
Very curious it was interested in. You know, it's a combination over lap with you know, the right wing, the ultra right, and the Kennedy assassination. After reading Dick Russell's book, you know, the man who knew too much there, but he had so much about the right wing in there that I kind of gravitated towards that in my early study, Like how Jerry Hemming and Lauren Hall all hang around, hung around with a lot of the ultra you know guy, some members of the Klan, John Birch minute men. These
are the people who they were associated with. So I kind of went in that direction for a few years, and then came back towards after reading Larry's book, you know, like someone would have talked, right, I said, oh, okay, this is where I want to go now. So that's where I've been ever since.
Right.
And then there's been some you know, wild stuff again, you know, like the the Wall Brown's you know, massive volume on the CD right that came out and you're like, whoa, you know which what worked on for a long time.
I was talking to him a lot during that. It was crazy.
He called a guy up on the phone, Hey, well, how you doing, and he starts off the conversation with on this date.
Like you know, and it doesn't matter.
It was me random like you know, March thirteenth, this happened, you know whatever, and March twenty eighth. This is what I'm going to be doing next. Because there's not too much that goes on there for a couple of weeks, okay, whatever, But he's pulling up minuscule things and putting them together in the Master Chronology.
Man.
Previous to that, we had some other stuff, you know, the Milestone books. But Larry's book, Yeah, this is where things get really strange because you have these different splinters occur now well, being involved in this kind of a book, I kind of asked you off air, you know where it is you think you were most involved here because I know a lot of this stuff came out of Larry's brain. A lot of this stuff got rearranged by
Rex Bradford. Rex again writes the introduction to this book, but he also did a lot of editing work on it. I don't know if Skyhorse went over it again. I don't know if they would have had to after Rex painfully edit stings. And that's said with a lot of love.
Rex.
I want you to know, but I got to tell you some authors have described Rex's editing as painful.
I'm sure Larry didn't take it personally.
But now that would be me. Yeah, he knows that.
I would try to leave you out of it, Larry, but okay, that's on you. But anyway, I mean being involved in this process, David, just you know, last thing, and then I want Larry to pick up after you know, how do you feel about it? Because this is in my mind. Seriously, And I don't just say this because I love Larry. If this book sucked, guys, I tell you this book is terrible, and Larry dropped the ball here. I would tell you that, but he didn't, and neither did David, and neither did Rex.
Nobody did.
This is an excellent volume if you want to study Lee Harvey Oswalt. Okay, And I'm not talking about the conspiracies. I'm saying you can put all that crap in context from what I've read. And I haven't even finished it yet because I've been ill, but I can see already that I can take a part individual areas of the conspiracy and use this book to guide me.
Okay.
And I'm not saying you know everything in here is one hundred percent. I never say that, but I will tell you that this is as close as you're going to get to an independently written reference book, okay, on Lee Harvey Oswald, and as much as, say, like Robert Grudin's picture book, The Search for Lee Harvey Oswald is a really good volume. You want to see every visual image that could possibly be gotten a hold of. Even so, this book has a couple images I haven't seen before,
at least that I don't remember seeing them. Maybe they have been seen elsewhere, but I don't remember them. But the visuals are just a side issue in this book. It's nice, but.
Not the key.
The information is key, and this is an essential book if you want to study Oswald. So, David, how do you feel about being involved in this book anyway? Just in general? And then, like I said, I'd like Larry to pick up and tell us what we need to know about it a little more going forward.
Oh, thank goodness, Larry pulled me into this. You know, so we've actually worked together, I don't know, all of the last five six years, sharing as much as we can. Because so the way we're going to get to the bottom of this puzzle, you know, Laswell puzzle is when we share data, share its findings, share thoughts.
Great great collaborative piece. Actually you both did at Lancer this year, Larry remotely and you in person, which was excellent. Now I didn't watch it live because I was busy doing a lot of other things, but I look back at it and uh man, you guys did an excellent job setting this book up in my mind at the Lanswer conference. But go ahead, go ahead, Sorry, I just want to.
Point that out. So it was really good.
Yeah, So, I mean, as Larry, you know, he started the whole ball rolling, and I just kind of added to it, you know, as it just picked It's like a snowball going downhill, just kept picking up steam and picking up pieces and just eventually turned into a good shape towards the end, as you can see.
Yes, and.
Eventually as life said, well, we've got to stop soon, you know, we just can't keep adding to this, you know, it just keeps growing and growing and growing. Wanting to make it readable after what far and fifty two pages? So right, right, right?
Uh yeah, certainly there were other questions that could be asked, but the space to answer them, and I think I think that opens a very good point about the book, about the Oswald section and the other section, the framing section, if you will. One of the things we tried to go for in the book was a lot of balance, because we're we're we're taking positions on certain things, but we realize that there are counterpositions that have been around
for a long time. So a lot of a lot of work went into saying, all right, this is our assessment. Other people think differently, and here's where you can find their view. So there was a lot of time spit putting in links and references into opposing views. So if somebody gets hooked on this who hasn't been in the game at all, they can check it out and go, well, all right, they've I like their picture better than your picture.
Okay, fine. But I think a real important part.
Of it is that what David brought to it, and Chuck, I think readers will this is really two books in one. It is a book on Lee Harvey Oswald, and the reason it's a different kind of book on Oswald is it's about Oswald over an extended period of time, because most of what all of us have written about before is Oswald at a point in time, at like a slice, which is which is what the Warrant Commission did, and slicing a person's personality and character apart is indeed cherry picking.
I mean, whether you know that you're doing it intentionally, as Thorn Commission clearly did, or if you're doing it unintentionally, as I've done before in some of my writing, it's like, you know, Oswald, here's the picture of Oswald, and you know that's that's all I'm interested in. There's no question of is that consistent with Oswald throughout his life or is it not just take what's there, use it? But two thirds of the book is that kind of a book.
It's it's an Oswell book. The last third of the book is where David's work made a huge difference and where the leading work Matthew Smith described deserves a great deal of credit for this because he opened up a lead that nobody had.
Ever found before or stood before.
And which led to actually the final third of this book essentially following that lead, not knowing if it was real or not, and then have everything fall into place to say, Lee, it looks like it was real. I wish Matthew were still around to see where his lead
had gone. But David's work for the final third of the book, which is a speculative scenario of what OSWA was doing in the couple of months before the assassination, the week of the assassination, of the dayas assassination, really relies on David's work of tracing out this lead that Matthew Smith had established in the first place at Redbird Airport right and adding in and understanding of the CIA and CI operations out of JM Wave and CIA contacts in New Orleans that we didn't even.
Know a decade ago.
As a matter of fact, we didn't know some of the most key connections in New Orleans until two years ago while we were working on the book, and David found them.
Right now, just for the listeners, real fast, Larry, you don't even get to New Orleans. This is the interesting to give an idea of what Larry's talking about regarding how long of a time period.
They go over in this book.
You don't get to New Orleans in this book until halfway through, Okay, literally, I mean I think it's almost exactly halfway through the book you land on New Orleans.
I've never seen that before.
New Orleans is almost like in the introduction to half of the people's books, right, it's like, hey, you know what before he was in Dallas, guess what he was in New Orleans? And everybody does that, right. This is a slow burn building the entire sort of lifespan of this kid. And again I say this kid because look, I'm fifty two years old now I'm looking back at a guy who lived twenty four years all right. This
is not an old man. This is not somebody who lived long as far as we know, Okay, And it's weird because people have built five six, eight hundred page books off of nineteen sixty two to sixty three, and then they mentioned a little bit of fifty nine fifty eight, right, and that's it.
That's all they talk about is a four year span.
And you know, Kennedy's dead on Friday, Oswald's dead on Sunday, all right.
I mean it's.
Literally that fast, and they built eight hundred pages out of it. This is actually an examination which is different, very very different. I don't even know how to exactly explain it. But again, I think David's David's style. And see in the last part of the book, which I didn't finish yet, I'm going to get to the speculation. I think we're gonna have to do a whole thing about the speculation itself. But the Redbird thing you've written about before, Larry, how much does that change?
By the way, the Redbird thing actually is two things. One thing is it all goes back to to a fellow named January Ray January, and I've been I worked with that lead, actually with Matthew Smith himself before his death and after his death, because certain things January revealed he would not allow to be put into print until after he passed away, and then you know, then you had to take his information and you couldn't work it with him. You had to reverse it, like verifying aircraft
identity numbers. And the Redbird's story by itself probably has been in play for twenty years or more. But what David brought to it is it was always you know, could we confirm any parts of it?
You know, he gave us Ray.
January gave Matthew what he had seen, and then he passed away. How do you verify it? Well, amazingly enough, in David's work in GM wave and the people are working in projects in nineteen sixty three, you can actually identify the people that Ray January spoke to that he had no idea of who they really were other than
they were coming coming to them from the CIA. That's just a kind of a subplot in all of this that developed on its own, with again, not like I said earlier, not looking, not having ind agenda, just kind of looking at it, and then at the end, go gee, it's amazing that this fell into place. I wasn't even looking for this because there are actually two independent stories about two different aircraft at Redbird.
One of them doesn't relate to Lee Harvey Oswold at all.
One does, but both, when you can tie them together, substantiate the credibility of Ray January.
You know.
That's just this part of this whole thing.
When when you get to a certain point, if you're lucky, all the pieces, the pieces that didn't fit before and weren't within the puzzle frame, it's like, oh, yeah, I see where they go now.
Right, Which is interesting because I think twenty five to thirty years ago, I think it's the first time I heard about Captain January, okay, but it was so vague that.
I didn't know what to do with it.
And then I read your article on it, and honestly, Larry, this is one of the ones I was like, well, this is interesting, but I don't know what to do with this. That's pretty much where where I left it, you know, and.
I did either at the time, it wasn't.
It wasn't until well we got information from the from am world, you know, talk about document disclosures. We didn't get those again until ten twelve years ago. And then the crypt busting, which we should refer to because David has been a big part of that with Bill Simpitch and others. We got the documents and we didn't know who they were talking about until we could.
Get the crypts determined.
Once that got through, you know, I guess one of the things that illustrates it all to me is I go back to some of the first books I read about the CIA and Cuba, and it's like everything is mysterious, everything is suspicious. But now in twenty twenty five, we're at the point where David can actually give you an organization chart of.
The jam wave station.
You know, when you got to that point, you really got some history you could work with.
Right, So, David, what what would you say would be the you know, is it the Cryptonyms project that advanced that work, like Larry's saying, or would you say there's other factors that helped with that.
Well, it's more and more no data gets released, you know, he's stopped. Like it's the pieces of the puzzle, the crips and the pseudonyms. You know, like what is who is am surf one? Well that's Frank Bartz. You know who's Frank Bartez. Oh he's the guy that met Lejave Oswald outside the courtroom. Oh, you know, so he's our cia, Yes he is, and you know and things like that. And who is he associating with? Well, his associate is so the Odio's uncle, you know usin greetat they hang
together at Frank Bartz's house. Who do they hang with? Carlos bring Geer, Oh, the guy that no Oswald had the fight with. Who else did they hang with? Carlos Carroga? You know, Carlos Car I was the guy that went to Oswald's apartment, you know, to question him and brought
him some flyers for you know, to pass out. So you know, eventually the pieces start to come in once you know who these people are, right, So you know, as far as the Redbird Airports airport leads this, the two of them, one was Wayne January said, but that a colonel come air Force colonel from Florida and a Cuban came to check out on an airplane that they wanted to use. Didn't say what it was for it's going to be I think it was the DC three C forty seven, I think, So they came to check that out.
So once you start looking at jam wave, who this colonel would have been and digging in you find out his name is Colonel Banni Chavez, you know, and he was good friends with David Morales and they used to share a desk together at jam Wave in Miami and you know who the cube and be well, there's some clues that January gave us was that.
She was the like.
Chief of air Force, the Cuban Air Force for the Bay of Pigs. Now we didn't know all that way back then, do you no documents not being released, and we find out his name is you know, Banny Viafanya, you know. So now we know who that guy is, you know who is he? He's started tracing that path down. We find out he's working for a commando's man bis.
He's out of JM Wave and working for David Moraleys you know, and he's the guy that ended up saying, you know, you know on Thursday said you know, Wayne, he says, what's going to happen is they're going to kill your president on Friday.
You know.
So we actually have that report. So a lot of clues that you know, come out of that whole Redbird Airport. The second piece is, you know, uh, there was a man and a woman in a car and somebody sitting in the back seat that January identify. I said, it looks like learvey oswell to me, you know so, and they wanted to rent a small little Sesna to get to Mexico. In January thought it was I thought, they're actually going to try and hijacket and they wanted him
to fly it there. And he just says, no, no way, no way am I doing this. I mean, so there's a lot of details like that. Who would those people be, you know, things like that. Came up with some possibilities and things. But that's what, you know, the crips and the people and you know, the whole looking at the big projects, how it all comes together, if that makes sense. But I'm not going down too far a rabbit hole here.
No, but there's a lot of action here which involves the people that have always been suspected, right. It ties to the Bay Pigs, It ties to those people. It ties to the Castro pro Castro anti groups, different ones, you know, whether it's the d r U or it's the you know however they described the Cuban Directorate, you know whatever, and then you have this other group.
Okay, all this stuff comes.
Together around this guy who's supposed to be nobody, Lee Arvy Oswald. You know, why is he involved in all this? And that's the big question that people have had for a long time. But it's always been because there's all these unidentified people. We know who Sylvia Odio is, we know who her family is, we know who her uncle is. They're naturally part of this situation. But then comes all these other individuals, right, the one weird visit everybody talks about,
but it goes beyond that, and it always has. But we didn't know who these people were. That one guy says, look, he looks like a Cuban. The other guy says, this guy looks like a white guy. I don't trust this guy. This guy looks like he's military, back and forth everything. And you got a loudmouth like Berengeart, right, who is in on some of this stuff too, But he's naturally involved because he's anti Castro. And why is Learvy Oswald
fighting seeming staged fight? A lot of people said, you know, in the street in New Orleans, which get people a hint about that a little bit like about that incident itself, which we've all heard about a million times. H if you ever study downs Well at all. I mean, just talk about that a little bit.
Yeah, I think one of the things and that when that's considered all by itself, you know, it's you know, it's one thing like this is really could this be coincidence? Obviously somebody is making this happen, you know what, what's the net result of this? It?
You know, But what.
Emerges from a longer look at Lee Harvey Oswell is in terms of Oswall's own personal agenda, it's it's quite consistent that there's nothing really that strange about the fact Lee Harvey Oswald, by that point in time, for some four months, even before he had left Dallas, had started communicating with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, had actually started leafleting in Dallas UH and been chased off by police in Dallas.
Through a department store downtown Dallas.
It's not new for Lee Harvey oswel to do this. He had he had he had been leafleting near the docks, UH, near an aircraft carrier in New Orleans before this. So the fact that he's out there leafleting for Cuba is
totally consistent. But also you can see from his own writing when he's he's been writing the fair play for Cuba Committee and trying to present himself as a street activist, but it's really kind of not working for him because you know, he gets chased off of places nobody's paying attention.
Well.
Oswell's a really creative guy, and we see from David's work and looking at names in Oswell's notebook, Oswall was starting to do is his homework in New Orleans. He was inquiring into Cuban groups, Cuban stores, TV and radio outlets. Oswell was clearly working towards Okay, I've got to make if I'm going to do this and I'm going to make a name for myself, I need to do something more sensational.
So when we get up to the time of the.
Street leafleting, we know Oswald already knows.
The local media.
Oswell will go on for the next few weeks to be kind of a darling of the local media and be on radio and TV. There's every reason to spec that Oswell because he went to the trouble of actually taking some of his limited funds to hire a couple of guys to leaflet with him, and everybody's got to be there in a white shirt and a tie and look real, you know, straight make a big deal out of this. There's no surprise that the TV crew shows up,
because it's speculative. But of course Oz will probably call them and said, I'm gonna be here, and I'm you know, something important is happening downtown today.
You need to cover it.
And so he's already set bring gear up because bring gear as already they've already been questioning whether Oswald is really pro or anti Castro Bringers place is only.
A few blocks away.
As soon as he the word gets to him, you know, you can just imagine Osweald absolutely knows what is going to happen. And when Carlos shows up, what does he say?
Hit me? You know, like, okay, we need to add some drama to this whole thing.
And I will say in the book, we demonstrate that Oswald can be something of a drama queen. Oswald knows how to get attention. And when you just cherry pick that and go, oh, well here and there, and when you look at the picture all together, it is not unusual to find Oswald doing dramatic things to draw attention to himself.
But when he does, he obviously.
Always draws attention to himself and admits it, which really raises the big question, why would he do the most sensational thing in the world in Dallas and then deny it like no, not me, have no idea what you're talking about, right, that long wind answer, Chuck.
No, no problem.
But David, I want you to talk about this because to me, it's the wildest thing. Because Oswald, as far as I understand from anybody who personally knew him, not a guy who likes to spend money. And yet yeah, he goes and hires temporary guys to help him hand out this stuff. He puts this on on the street. Now again, perspective nineteen sixty you know, nineteen sixties America. Okay, you got a camera out there, TV station out there that's going to travel around the neighborhood.
Hey, hey there's TV. There's TV.
Something must be happening because it was a big deal. You know, nowadays see a TV you know, they show up in their own cars and they hold up a selfie stick and record off a cell phone. Okay, but back then you needed a crew. A van showed up, I mean, come on, and there's clearly film of this right before. Right, so you know, what are your thoughts on that? Because it was always seeing in isolation? Isn't
this strange? Okay, it looks stage blah blah. But the fact that you know, again, his personality not somebody who likes to part with money, uh, spending the money and putting this effort in to create this thing that he knows is going to cause the star clearly to provoke bearing gear. Whether bearing gear is tipped off or not is irrelevant. He's gonna find out and he's gonna get himself involved. I mean, it's just like a guarantee almost.
He set it up this way, and I think Oswald set it up this way.
But what do you think?
Yeah, well you have to go back just a little bit. Oswald again. What he wanted to get to Cuba. To get to Cuba, you have to he wanted to learn how to speak Spanish. Right, No, so he actually went to h sorry guys, no, no, take take a minute.
If you need to catch your breath, no, put no problem there. But yeah, but but yeah, obviously he needs to know how to speak Spanish if he wants to go to Cuba and operate there at all.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Right, So who did he? He approached Honesto Rodriguez at the Modern School of Lag which is the Burlett School, and he wanted to learn how to speak Spanish there, so he approached Onsto and he says, hey, I learn how to speak Spanish. And then Oswald started speaking in Russian quite a bit, and Onsto said, yeah, my Russian is okay, but it's not as good as Oswald's. I couldn't keep up, so I just you know, stopped talking to him there. But then Oswald asked him and says, so,
what are the who the anti Castro Cubans around? Who can I talk to? So Honesto gave him various addresses.
Yeah, fair enough, No no problem, take your time, take a time, because this is interesting. He's asking this guy, you know, look, I want to find the anti Castro Cuban people. Meanwhile he's out there openly, uh you know, going going and leafletting.
Shortly thereafter, right, yeah.
He actually actually gave him his friend, Colin Springier was his best, good buddy, you know, his addresses. Go see Carlos here and talk to him, you know, And that's when Oswald went to go see Brigier and brought him, you know, his marine manual on you know, out of fight.
Yeah, this is the exchange where he gives him the basic you know, his his marine handbook and you know, as a pledge, I want to join the anti Castro thing. And then yeah, go ahead, that's all right, David, take you take your time, take your time. I understand, believe me. I've had to close my Micael more than once lately. It's been a thing. But uh yeah, look, so this is good.
Yeah. So Nesto and Carlos very good friends. And Nesto where this becomes key is that his brother is Emilio Rodriguez. This is key because Emilio Rodriguez is a high level CIA officer out of JM Wave. So you know, brother's talk, you know, So Emilio, he is very close to the same names. Again, David Morales. Morales used to be his boss, and when Emilio was in Havana, you know, prior to the Bay of Pigs and Emilio's Who's larry to save me.
Amelia was also close to Tony Schwarza, who was also another major player at jam Wave, in charge of all the amots. So this is a really close connection as to how Oswald was seen by certain people at jam Waves that you know through Honesto, and so Esto was also close, you know, go back a little bit. He was kind of close to uh guy Banister because Honesto used to run the CRC Cuban Revolutionary Console and he used to rent the office at five forty four Camp Street.
This is our nest though until nineteen sixty two. So if you remember, Oswald had Carlos close Lamont Flyers right with the five forty four Camp Street.
Right, So this is the Camp Street thing, the connection to take take him inute, to take him minute, This
is the Camp Street connection. And also what strikes me at this point is that some of the random, seemingly random names to come out of Dean Andrews's mouth, okay, are right there or close to a bunch of people that we now know were connected to these things, which is weird because Andrews is like, look, I just gave him any names I could come up with, but these are probably real names, which is really strange and brings this whole nexus back around, right. You know, was good Guy Banister and.
Stressed connection is that Esto used to have the keys to five forty four Camp Street right in. Oswald at one time told well Uh in correspondence that he had an office that he used for a few days and that would have been five to forty four Camp Street. So shows a little bit closer connection between Esto and Oswald because Esto had the keys even after you know, they no longer paid rent there. So you know, again Essa was close to Banister, he admitted, yeah, pianist, I
knew all those guys that were close to me. You also know new George Lincoln Rockwell, you Knowessa was a bit of a Nazi if you if you want to say so, I mean that's it. Again. Esto was close to Frank Bartes. You know, they'd all meet at his house close to so via Odio's uncle. So you can see how Odeo's visitors Oswald and the two guys that went there, where they got their information from they get from these guys.
Yeah, now it makes sense that they had this idea and this presentation about you know, we get your uncle involved here, we want you involved all this kind of thing, and they meanwhile they're talking about this guy Oswald, and you know, it seems to come out of nowhere until you realize that it makes sense in that nexus.
Right.
Well, anyway, Larry, that seemed to have got lost.
Yeah, Larry, are you with us still? Let's see I might he may have dropped off somehow. Oh boy, I'm sorry about that. So David, I'll tell you what. I'll complete this with you if you want, or we could try and take a break and see if we can catch Larry again. But gee, I don't see him there. Let's see what we can put him back in real fast? Okay, yes, see if you're pull him back in and I'll finish
up a few things. Yes, if you don't mind, you go go go ahead and continue about this nexus though, if you don't mind, and I'll see if I can grab Larry again.
Yeah.
So a lot of what's kind of new to us is that Sylvia Audio's uncle was actually a CIA asset, and his case officer was Carl Trenton, who worked out of the Cuban desk at headquarters. They wanted him to be a cutout, obviously, Queta no sy the Audio's uncle to be a cutout.
Yeah, there are Larry. Great.
I pulled you back in because I somehow lost you there I don't know why.
Uh, it's my internet is down.
Oh okay, so what was my internet?
Basically?
All right, well just came back.
Well, we'll take a minute here and let let David continue with he's talking about the Nexus in New Orleans, uh, and how it expanded and started to encompass a lot of known names. But just mute out for a few minutes here and let it build up a little strength and we'll bring you back into the conversation to close this out. But David, sorry about the interruption to what you were talking about there. Back to the odio situation, right, and who it is was being sort of pulled into this go ahead.
Yeah, her uncle, Augustine gree Todd, was actually a CIA asset. It's got a huge too one file yead A case officer Collin Trenton worked out of the Cuban Desk Special Affairs staff, using him to recruit his uncle out of Canada. So he ended up becoming CI asked asset just up until just before eleven sixty three, which I find very interesting. Trent what else about gree Todd? Yeah, Also he was
close to Tony Verona. I don't know if you remember who Tony Verona was He was one of the original guys that were going to assassinate Castro, along with Johnny Roselli, Bill Harvey and that crew he had. You know, he was the guy that was gonna ring the pills to have Castro assassinated. He was that close to Tony vveronavver own estate at his house on eleven, fourteen sixty three. You know, it's just to show you how close these
guys were, right, You know, these guys weren't inconsequential. They were connected, They knew people, they knew no a lot of the names that were surfaced over the years as possibilities in the assassination.
Right, well, and again, all of them tying together around this one particular location and around this particular time period from the summer of nineteen sixty three into the fall and then at the end of the fall is the assassination.
Yeah. I mean, if you look at Sylvia Odio's uncle was at Oswald's court appearance, along with you know, bring Gear, Frank bartz On, Aesto Rodriguez. All these people were there in court. They wanted to see no Oswald, no in court, you know, so, which is amazing I think right, So they all knew who Oswald was and so he was no secret there to all these people.
So one thing that's undeniable anyway is this idiocy that has always been put out by the CIA. You know, we had no idea who he was, right like that. That's that's garbage. That's for sure. Now, whether that means anything or not as to you know, whether he is actually the assassin, I don't even want to get into that question. We're just studying this guy and his movements and who he's around and who he's connected to here, and you can draw your own conclusions from it.
But it's it's too much to just be a coincidence. It's just that simple.
Larry, I kind of want to go, do you for a sort of a final word on this and sort of close this out if your internet is strong enough and if you're feeling up to it, what do you think is the key important thing that is different about this book? Because as I said, I I've never seen one constructed this way. I've never seen the the time taken on Oswald that's been taken here, and the breakdowns, the sections, the way they're laid out also never been
done before. You know, for instance, one one chapter, I found it kind of ironic Oswald and the CIA. Uh And I remember reading a book by that title some years ago that I had trouble with. Anyway, I don't have trouble with your chapter anyhow, Larry, how would you break this down?
I think I think the big difference is that we have all me included, Okay, looked at Oswald as a tool.
You know, as something that's that is being used.
Yeah, that doesn't mean that Oswald was not being used, but it doesn't mean that he was being used wittingly. And I don't think we've often gone far enough back in the time as we did in the book to go what's the real Oswald? What are his interests? What are his world views? Is he just taking orders from somebody?
You know?
We see him in all these different interesting situations that you know, did half a dozen different agencies contact him at different times and give him different orders? And he just willingly shifts from one agenda to another agenda. Whatever anybody is selling him to do this week, he does, even if it, even if it seems to be in conflict, like he just is a puppet. But when you look at his life history and his character and his personality. A couple of things really stand out from his teenage
years on, from his school years on. Is one thing that stands out is Oswald never willingly took orders from anybody. There's nobody that knew him or ever would offer testimony that he was an order taker that would just blindly follow instructions.
That's not Lee Harvey Oswall See.
That's a key thing.
Also.
Yeah, but hang on, Larry, that's a key thing because whether you trust Ruth Paine or not, she makes that case, whether you trust her his childhood friends and what.
That means he should they make that case.
His own mother comes out and says, look, I had problems with him. I couldn't get him to, you know, do this or that.
He's played.
He's a true at New York City not an easy place to be a truant, by the way, a lot of things going on.
This is not somebody who.
Just comports with things because he's told he doesn't take orders. Well, you got problems in the Marine Corps, Larry. I mean we know that from his record, right.
But I think one of the most strike things that and of course you've talked with her institute of its and we just have an immense amount of background from Tenevitz that didn't get used correctly. Okay, but Oswell may be the only person in the world, certainly the only American, but maybe even the only one in the Soviet Union whoever staged a workstopage personal strike in a Russian factory.
I mean, this is someone who when he became fed up with a bureaucracy in the factory, he literally stopped working. It's like, you know, I'm on strike. And his supervisor, who was actually a close friend and he hung out with the family and his girls and everything, it's making him look really bad.
And Oswell is.
Just, you know, he's good about principle and he's always about principle and what he thinks is right, you know.
And so just another example of no.
If Oswell is in sync with you, he can be you know, if you agree with his views and whatever.
He talks to you, he's friends with you. He can be a great guy. If you're not, he's not.
And the thing about that is his world views from his teen years when he writes the Young.
Socialist Federation on are the same. They don't change.
He's Oswald's view of the world is all about economic justice, racial justice. Something he's probably never gonna find, but he's going to go looking for it. And that kind of screams out of his real personal history that A doesn't take orders B. He's got a view of what he's looking for, and see, he would just keep looking for it until he finds it, even admitting to a friend like de Mornshield that he wrote realizes he may never find it.
But he's going to keep looking.
Which is an interesting perspective because it's always been like, well, he was used this way, he was used that way, and that doesn't mean that he wasn't because you could just take a guy like this and sort of direct him with a prediction about which way he's going to go. And we talked about that before, about the use of ass. That's right, some mad sets. You meet with them, you tell them listen, you're on an important mission. Blah blah blah.
This is the way that a lot of people perceived Oswald. That's not necessarily the way you got to do it.
You could just well you and I've talked about this in terms of con games, Right, if you really want to use someone and get them to go along deniably, like Okay, you pick somebody who's doing something they want to do and convince them that you want to participate in that, Like here, I'm offering you a better way to do what you want to do.
Uh, And they don't even have to know that.
That's the easiest form of manipulation is to find somebody whose agenda is going the same way yours is. If you if you want a propaganda campaign against Castro subversion of Americans, you find somebody who's already engaged in a pro Castro campaign and.
You use them.
You don't have to give them any orders, and it's the perfect deniability. Well, it was much to use the word entangle, you know, entangles, the very keyword.
Well, it's much like the use of the mob to try and assassinate Castro right where it's like, look, their agenda matches, so they want Castro out of there, So why don't we use these guys because they're willing to kill and they're in that business. Let him do it, let's help them. That doesn't mean that you let them in on the excuse me, the whole of the operation. Okay, it just means I can direct these guys, they might
accomplish my goal for me, and you can. And what you grab, You grab a guy like Roselli who's already failed at a couple of things. He's trying to work his Hollywood angle.
He likes it.
You get a couple other guys who are losing money because they can't get back into Cuba. Right, they took over the casino what day three? I mean, you know, what are you gonna do? You get these guys who have the same agenda. It doesn't mean you read them into everything. Okay, you just.
Well what uswell did.
He's a lot of time, effort and a little money in New Orleans, you know, establishing a resume from because he wanted to get the cube.
He believed in the Cuban Revolution. That's what he was reading about. He's writing about it. So he's on the radar. Right, as David has said, everybody.
Who's connected to see I knows this. Emilie or Rodriguez and Miami station is this.
So what do you do? It's easy enough.
You just find a couple of antic astro who will get in contact that say hey, you're all right, we're really looking for Americans who want to support the revolution.
You're you're great. We're gonna wait all for you.
Larry's Larry, because you're breaking up a lot.
I'm gonna let David kind of conclude this program if you don't mind hang on though, because I want to. Uh again, there's gonna be links with the show notes that will show you where to go get the book.
Uh.
It's published by Skyhorse, The Oswald Puzzle. The author are Larry Hancock and David Boylin. I'm sorry I always say your name that way because it sounds wrong.
Uh.
And and speaking to somebody from another country a couple of months back, they called you David Bolin, and I said, no, there's a why there. So I don't know how to do it right, but I also know.
You're doing it wrong. Uh. So it was kind of a funny conversation when we talked. We talked about you.
Uh, it's boiling, boiling, okay, so I'm doing it close to right, boiling.
Sometimes I stretched the A, which is wrong.
Okay, boiling all right, anyway back to it, I want to just ask you a final question here, which is kind of off the wall, but it's one of these things that's always annoyed me. They they try to tie Oswald to the mob connections, let's just say in the case, and it's always annoyed me because simply because his uncle was a knock around guy doesn't mean crap in my mind.
You know, I can tell you personal stories about people that had the had the same last name who were associated to a cousins, uncles, even their parents may be involved, it doesn't directly lead to that person being involved with anybody who's in that organization. And I mean, it's just strange because then they go, what about the you know, Dixie Mafia, totally different organization, only the name in common. It's a different secret society, and people don't understand it
because it's like, well, mafia mafia, no Oswald. I can't find credible ties to mob people with Oswald. I can't not in my mind, and only because I have knowledge about how the underworld works and it's just not there. But did you address it in the book, and if not, did Larry address it? Did you see it? And what
are your thoughts on that? And then we're going to close this out because I think people have plenty to dig into in this book that we didn't talk about, and plenty of good leads that we've given them here in this conversation. So did you address or did Larry address it in the book as far as you're.
Aware, No, we didn't, and why no, because we don't believe there's any real connection to organized crime. Let's call it that, thank you, thank you, because though I can't find it, and I've seen many authors do this, and it's just because of his uncle. I mean, you can see his uncle's connections, right yeah, yeah, but that doesn't tie him to it. And it's just it's not there. It's not because I don't want it to be there. If it was there, this would be easy for me.
Matter of fact, I would have written a book on Oswald if I found organized crime.
Connections to him.
But it's not there anyway, David, you're basically agreeing with.
Me, right right, one hundred percent. Okay, it's not there. We can see where the connections are.
Now that's not to say that there aren't possibilities in the case. Okay, I don't say that with absolute certainty, but I do say then when it comes to the character of Lee Rby Oswald, this guy, he's got intelligence people around him, he's got political activists around him, he's got strange characters who are sort of involved in some shady business. For sure, there's some gun runners and this and that, but they may be tangentially connected.
He is not.
This is a problem that is solved right here, because well, why is it not in the book? Much like when the guy asked me this year at Lancer came out to bother me in between sessions. He says, how come nobody's talking about the Secret Service agent who put the bullet on the.
Stretcher, you know?
And I said, well maybe because after examining it for a year the moment majority of us decided there's nothing to it and that's why you're not hearing about it. And he said, that's not right there. You guys can get why would a guy say that. I said, okay, look, that's your opinion, But you asked me. That's how I told you.
You know what I mean? And I love that.
Basically this is up David and I have in common, which is you asked me.
I answered it. That's all I can give you.
You know, if I can find it, I'll find it, and if not, I gotta tell you it's not there. And I love that about your work. You don't just sit there and say, well, I'll take your speculation and try to run with it. No, you say, let me see where the evidence is and let's see if it can hang together. And if it can't, maybe it's not evidence, maybe it's just an incident. But if things hang together,
we got a story to tell. That's like how a prosecutor should function, you know, And that's how the prosecutory brief should have been written about this guy to begin with. But the Warrant Commission didn't do that, and that's why we're still stuck with this story. Anyway, David, any final comment on this before I see if Larry can make a final comment on the Oswaldt puzzle again available through Skyhorse. It's got a really nice black and white dust jacket.
I have a hard copy, a hard back version here. I don't know if there's going to be a paperback or audiobook. I'm hoping this becomes an audiobook, by the way, but I guess we'll have to see as publication goes forward with Skyhorse Slash, Simon and Schuster.
But anyway, I.
Think Skyhorse said is listen here a year before the paperback version comes out, so be it a year at least.
Did they give any hitting on the audiobook?
Nothing. I haven't heard anything on about the audio book.
Okay, well, either way, I'm telling you now this is an essential book for the study of Lee Harvey Oswald and in my mind, an essential volume when it comes to the case. And yeah, Larry Hedcock and David Boylan. But anyway, final comment on it, David.
Well, I think that's I think we covered what we wanted to do.
Actually, okay, Larry, would you like to drop something on us just before we close out?
Larry's disappeared again.
Oh okay, Well, then we'll leave it to your imagination books and just close it out like this.
David, thank you for joining me.
Of course, I think Larry Hancock I'm always glad to have him along, but I guess he's having Internet troubles coincidentally, So it is what it is. And no matter who you are, where you are, when you are, remember I merely chilly.
All of you are indeed the.
Effect oh Chili dot com.
Dot com radio network.
Yo Yolis. Doug Campbell, host of the Dallas Action podcast presented by Wall Street Window, and you are listening to the o'chill effect, revelation through conversation.
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Right, Well, what do you want to know?
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Really, I imagine I could claim I have four wheels. It doesn't make me a wagon.
But okay, Oswald on the building and trying to prevent the murder of John Kennedy, Come on now, has a real effort on the DFA assassination inlaim.
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