You see, something's going to happen.
What what's going to happen?
What?
I help? And welcome to the Occult Rejects. I am your guest host Jim and Ninja, and I'm here with my boss Nick, the main man of the Occult Rejects, and Lisa, the main mad scientist, and our guest tonight, Absidari and Mont who is bringing us the flavor of the Islands with some Caribbean folk magic.
That was great. You're hired. Thank you very much. I really appreciate it, isna your fun.
Thank you for having me on. Jen, I'm really looking forward to that episode.
So mad well, I am, yes, so yeah, I know, I really was because at least I know this is a well again a topic I don't know anything that which seems to be quite often, but I know that this is something that you're into yourself, Jen, so at least, like you know, it's something that I knew that you get, you know, some sort of fun out of covering as well. So I'm really looking forward to this And Absidarian, man, I'm really glad to have you back on again on
the show. It's always a pleasure to have you on My man. Before we get it started. Just please plug your show and let everybody know where they can find you stuff.
Sure, thanks well, thanks again everyone for having me on. I could be found on across social media networks. Apsidarian or op Sidarian. Mott could also check out link Tree and you know Absidaran on there as well.
I am most active or most most of my.
Content is on Facebook, Patreon, and a little bit of Gap. I definitely recommend a lot of people to check out Gap. People sleep on Gap, but there's just so much information on Gap that you're not gonna find anywhere else.
But uh, I believe it at that.
You know what's funny.
I thought about going back on there again just every once in a while because, believe it or not, back in the day, when he should drop some of my podcasts on my videos on there, it would actually get traction.
Yeah, especially like he hasn't been active in a while.
Yeah, so I have like maybe I can go on like dropping in some of the groups or whatever. I don't know, but there was one point where I did. Actually I had a gab TV. Believe it or not, we had gab TV at one point on a Cult Rejects because we were actually getting so much some traction on that platform, not anymore.
Yeah, it's a growing it's a grown social media network. A lot of people are jumping on there as well.
Nice.
Nice, all right, So West Indian Magic, what's your thoughts on that? Let's kick it off.
So all right, I'll start off.
I was I was born in Trinidad, and you know, I go there a few times a year often, so I'm very connected to you know, the history of the folk tradition and it's so much to talk about.
So we'll talk about some of the.
Different streams today such as Obia Shango what is it called baptism or like spiritual Baptist where they mixed the Afro Christian tradition. I'll also talk about tons of real life ghost experiences I've had. Some of the ghosts are like you know, the vampires, like the Sukenya. We got the lajab List, which is the female spirit that lures men to walk across water. We got the dwnd unbaptized children with backward feet that chases you in the forest.
We got the Papa Bois, which is the father protector of the forest. A lot of hunters experienced this, uh, this guardian of the forest per se.
There's also the gin.
Of course, the gin, you know that's not only limited to the Caribbean, but the Gin has a presence there.
With some of the Islamic magic.
We got the Cheryl, which is a female spirit that died well given childbirth wonders in Limbo. Well, yeah, we just we got a lot to chat about. So that's what we could look forward today.
Gin, you want to add anything, I'll just say that.
Was like a really great intro. So my background, obviously I've sat on the show before. My dad's Indonesian Chinese. So you might think, well, how does Jin know anything about West Indian poke magic. Well, there's actually a large population of Indonesians from Guyana and Surinam who live in Toronto, and so you just growing up, you just sort of know them and then you kind of I realized very early on that our folk tales are almost identical. You
can actually match one to one. A lot of the spirits, particularly the female kind of like tree spirits, what we would call like a pontianak, which is like a ghost who lives in the trees, and it can be a ghost of a woman who died in childbirth or Gunggang Sarah,
who is also appeers all over North Africa. So there's like a clear kind of epistemology of these ghosts that or these spirits are these kind of magical practices, and a lot of the Islamic stuff that came from the Transatlantic slaves from Mali actually is very similar to Indonesian folk magic as it is practiced today, so there's a great deal of overlap, and a lot of Indonesians in the Netherlands as well as Canada practice obaya, so you
definitely have a lot of crossover. And then tantra, which is obviously where I'm particularly strong in that there's a layer of that in Trinidad, but also in Martinique, also in Surnam, also in Guiana because of the large Cooley population, which are ethnic South Asians, but there's also ethnic Chinese groups who also engage in these praxices. So I've have had exposure, both academically and just socially to a lot
of this insider, more quiet stuff. So and obviously one of the first ways of any magician, I think even Nix talked about this, when they first start out, where's their first trip? Will they go to the spiritual supply store, which are like Botanica supplies, which are very you know, it's part of that continuum of like Mexican Cuban and sort of like indigenous and Afro syncretic folk magic. So
it all kind of lives in this syncretic soup. So that's pretty much where I'm gonna add to whatever outstarian it doesn't add, and I will have a couple of my own points. But I think it's gonna be really fun. I'm really excited for this, and thank you guys so much for inviting me.
Yeah, of course, thank you. I spake to us.
There, sure, all right, So I guess it's good to define some of these terms so we know what we're talking about. One of the most popular popular religious practices is obia. So it has its background from West Africa, and I don't know much about it, you know, other than like secondhand sources, but it seems to be very decentralized, as in, you know, there's no set doctrines, canons, deities.
It's just mixed based.
On the village or or you know, the local obia mand or like the head guy. That's oral tradition that's passed on in different practices of healing.
We're working with.
Magic, right, there's definitely a lot of black magic, but you know, trying to hurt someone, trying to get rich, you know, things of that nature. So obia is one of the most popular black magic practices. And in turn that it's a big melting pot because there's been so much different influences throughout history, from the European British influence, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, we have the Chinese, Islamic, we have African, we have South Indian and other parts of India that came as
indentured servants after the slave trade. So my ancestors came in the late eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds from India, and you know, they couldn't speak English, and a lot of them bought their their folk tradition with them, and you know, and they it's what is it called mimesis in anthropology, is just you know, it's a mixing of different traditions to adapt to the current land. So there's a lot of that.
There's a lot of mixing.
And another one that's popular, it's pretty powerful, is the spiritual Baptists. It's you know, it's mixed of African tradition and the Western Christian tradition, and yeah, very very powerful some of the these traditions and history, a lot of bloodshed in Trinidad, and to Jin's point, there is a lot of common ground between the countries and islands in that area, because yeah, I have I've tons of stories of my family members traveling to Guyana and even some
from Surinam. Some I'm familiar with some of the similarities in the tradition. I must say, there's something about that lant. It's just so close to the equator and being close to Amazon rainforest as well.
There's just really.
Powerful energy in this space. And then another tradition is the Indian tradition from the indentured servants that came over from India and in some ways, in my opinion, in the West Indians meaning Indians that have been relocated to the Caribbean and Guyana and South America, in some ways they've they've kept the religion and heritage much strong or than their East Indian counterparts. Because it's common in India when the pundit or the priest is doing a.
Ritual or a pooja for you, you.
Just give them the money or you just give them whatever offer and you have and he you know, you don't touch the deity or you know, you don't go really in the in the temple or whatever, but the pundit does it for you. So it's very second hand source, you need, you know, middleman. But in the Caribbean, the West Indians a little bit different. They're more hands on.
They're fasting for twenty one days, thirty days, you know, forty days even, and yeah, they're participating in these these poojas, these rituals, which is a lot has to do with like offerings of flowers.
And also there's I should I should clarify there's like two types of worship.
One is the you know, the the right hand path that they call it the sata worship, which is no blood, you know, none of that, none of the dark stuff. And then of course you got the left hand path, which they're into like you know, animal sacrifices and things of that nature. But yeah, it's just, uh, they're very well connected, the West Indians in Trinidad, Guyana Surnam with their tradition, they've they've kept the pronunciation of the mantras, the the language some of them and the families, and
I always thought, wow, that's very interested. I would think it would be the opposite that, you know, the motherland India would hold you know, hold on to some of these traditions in their own right, which they do in certain instances. But uh, that was just an interesting observation from the Indian background.
Jin can you can you you want to speak on anything?
Well, I thought you mean it, well, thank you. I thought you made an incredible point about that, and I'm glad you said that. And it's one hundred percent true that because the Pujaris come from the family tradition. So it's like lineages of priests. They're not necessarily Brahmins, right, usually not. Maybe there are some, but they're not always Brahmins.
So they have more of a householder tradition where they pass it on to their sons or their grandsons, and so yeah, they do retain a lot more of that, like it's more part of your lifestyle rather than a profession. So in India, like a lot of the temple societies are owned by the states now, so you have a lot of government involvement in the temple, the running of
the temple financially, but also liturgically. So in these kinds of like more diaspora situations, I guess they would follow the original shastras, which are the prescriptions in the Piranhas for how temple or ritual conduct should be performed in
the temple. So there are definitely different streams. Like Amstarian said, there's like what we would call doction ontario, which is like maybe they don't call it that, maybe they call it more of the Vedantic method or that's more the normative right handed method, but there's also a right handed left handed method. That's what it starts to get a little confusing. So it becomes important to be able to
discern and understand the deities that they are performing. Now in my experience with people from t T and just West Indies in general, even the Indians don't always make a strong discernment between like some of the deities like a Saraswati of Vedic goddess, she is much she is Khalie like, it's the same thing for them. They don't really make a huge distinction. But for a contric obviously it gets a little more. You have to be a little more. You have to use specificity in defining it.
Because then the mantra changes, the shastra, the worship style changes, all it really matters. So I think for me, what I really am interested in is they did preserve what is quintessentially tntra at its core, which is a how hold our tradition where you are practicing night time rituals, but also maybe in charge of a shrine. So I think that's really interesting. Just like from a history of magic perspective, Can.
I interject really quickly? I wanted to say anthropologically, what I have found, especially being you know, from South Texas, is that I think a lot of when people were having to assimilate outside of their cultural norm, to hold on to their culture, their language, their their their food, their belief system was existential for them, what kept them saying and so I feel like there was more of an emphasis to keep things so preserved back to what they remember in order to carry on day to day.
And therefore I think you do have this preservation of cultural origins in the Caribbean, especially the most and then obviously within you know, Central and South America. I just wanted to say that.
No, that's pep story and please go ahead.
Oh yeah, yeah, I was just a great point.
I just wanted to add to that that I've noticed there's been a lot of you know, with the migration from a lot of people from the Caribbean and South America, they've bought that the same culture and traditions in America because I was blown away the first time. I was like around fifteen and in New York and my mom got hit by a souconia, which is a vampire, and I'm like, wait a minute, that's from turning that, Like
why are we seeing it? It was like sun, you know, they bring they bring these things over here, and they're continuing some of that stuff over here. So I was like, I thought that was interesting.
Yeah. I also just wanted to add really quickly that there is actually a tradition specifically preserved in the Caribbean. Broad Caribbean, we'll say that is not very alive in India, a contric tradition. So in Trinidad they would call the deity d Baba and they would syncretize him to Saint James the Morse Layer. So he rides a white horse. He's like a warrior who rides a white horse. And he's actually one of the seventy two a retinue deities
of bai Rava. But this tradition, which is obviously very similar in some ways to probably people are thinking like the lesser keis O Solomon or Goalesia. It is in a way, but he is like a tutelary deity, protector of the village. And in fact they would all hang keys give him keys. They will lock the temple and give him keys. But the point of my story is that this is only really found in villages in South India.
So although it used to be widespread throughout India, it really only is preserved in like the south, in very like small kind of rural, out of the way temples. But this idea of the seventy two sort of time kings or seventy two lower retinue figures of the time kings, I think is really interesting for Western magicians just because of the similarity and overlap and their dominion over things
like the forest. Like he brought up Papa Blah. Interestingly, we also have Papa Bla in French Canada, so that's really interesting. And we syncretize him with Saint John the Baptist, so but not Saint John the Baptist as the elder Saint. It's Saint John the Baptist as a little boy wearing
the hair shirt. It's very specific, so you'll see a lot of like Maiti and indigenous men will do a little prayer on certain things or give a little offering of tobacco on certain trees specifically for this kind of like Papa Ba or they call him other names to they'll call him whiskey Jack or there's a variety of trickster characters that are kind of syncretized together. But it is interesting that we also have a character like that
in this. In the US, they also have a character like this is Prayer Rabbit and sort of like the Hi John or the Tjan character from Louisiana, And so there's like an overlap between like what we would call like the Johns. So like there's the John Ruth that's often used in Hodoo. It's obviously like a epomia, it's a morning glory, and so he has a root to
overcome all evil. There's a sort of spirit that has like the power of healing and the plants and the medicine of the forest, and then there's kind of like a trickster spirit, but they're all on a continuum together thing. That's kind of interesting, A.
Great, great point, Jen.
I'm really glad you mentioned because that was my list of things to talk about.
H No, No, that's fine.
I'm adding I'm adding a few things onto that as well. So I'm glad you mentioned him, and you brought up some really good connections with the John. I'm the guardian of the home, so I'd like to add a few things about the de Baba. So, so the d Baba, Uh, there's I'm familiar with. There's two ways of you know, worshiping the debab. But there's the Suta way again.
That's like without the sacrifice or whatever.
It's just.
Maybe some rum and some cigarettes. And then there's the other way, which is like a chicken. A lot of people do the chicken once a year. And I found it interesting because accounts of deep de Baba is one of the accounts my my cousin's husband told me. And he's, you know, he has like the he has the vision, you know, the spiritual vision. He's like he sees them often on he doesn't do it anymore. He's Christian, so
he's you know the people that did it before. You know, my cousin's prior generation on the land they were they were Hindu and uh he describes him how he describes him as just like the hat man, like with the brimmed hat, dark shadow, with the with the with the coat. And I always I was like, wow, this is really interesting. How there's that hat man connection there, not with the like the evil eyes or anything, just watching over your home.
And my cousin's husband told me a few times he's been awoken by this, uh, this dee baba hat man figure when you know, there's like someone.
Trying to rob their home.
So he would catch it on the the surveillance camera. So the dee baba is really interesting interesting as well in that I have some experience with that. And you know, in the States, I knew one of my friends, uh he was doing the the de baba worship and uh he was he was offering water to it. So it's I've never seen that, and it's I don't know what
kind of adaption that is. But at the time, like I was in his space with this, and you know, I was doing a lot of prayer and fasting at the time, so it was just like really this pure, pure vibe and you know, my car alarm just just started kept going off and going off and going off, and and I'm hitting an alarm and like, wow, this is this thing is just not going off. So let me go check out the car. So I go outside
and once I get to the cars, it stops. And I'm like, man, wow, something did not want me in his space.
And I just I just something was off with what he was doing.
And I just want to tie that into some of the worship that has come down, like from from for instance, Rudolf Steiner talks about how some folk spirits or ancestor worship as it comes down, it becomes like either like a dead eggregor so like it's not charged, or people aren't giving it power, or it could become what's the word, like a vampire like so it feeds, it starts to feed, so.
It changes the egre.
So I saw a connection with that and just my spiritual insight that this was something that has the appearance of Bairav, a form of Bairav like Jin said, and in the Dibaba iconography, you know on the on the image, which is a form of Shiva, by the way, But what I understood about Deebaba he was a folk hero in India that that you know, that began to be worshiped as well.
So yeah, I just.
Wanted to mention that, you know, things that come down to us now, it's not always how it was worshiped or how it is.
In the current stream.
I'll add a little quick note to that is that so in India he would be considered like a Kistra Paula, So we have the exact we have the same idea in contrac Buddhism. At Kistra Paula, it just means field protector. Just so the two words put together, that's how sounds great usually works. And so he is considered to live
on the land. So I thought that was really interesting that you said that people would see him because they would live and even their shrines traditionally would be on the northwest corner of fields or the northwest corner of monasteries or walled sort of like the villages, because that is where they that's sort of where they protect from
I guess. So yeah, that's that's exactly what he would do, and he would be sort of in charge of the villager's day to day lives, but particularly with traveling because as Amsidarian said, he is a birava, so he is a ferocious king, but he's also part of the retinue of the time king. So it is a kind of form of shiva. Like I always say, I've said to next so many times on the show, like and that's how we think of it, as like the there's nine,
but it's really an expression of eight. But those eight also turn into another eight, so then when you add in the nine, it becomes seventy two. But it's all coming from time and again that's right, that's right. So
he's just not active. Time is not active necessarily as himself, but he has this expression of multiple identities that he takes that can like live in the village, perform these kind of like Quotitian daily perfunctory sort of like functionary things for the villagers, and yet it is a reciprocal transactional relationship. But it's like also because he lives in the land or maybe beneath it, they are also feeding
the land. So when they do like those like village pujaris, which is different than like a temple shastra worship, but when they do like a chicken or a goat sacrifice, they're literally feeding the land, and so he arises that's kind of how it is. So it is kind of like an aggrigor in a way because it's like the it's all the different sort of geniuses of the land
coalescing into a form. So I think that's kind of interesting as well that he can travel, so it's not necessarily the same one that's worshiped in India, but maybe he starts to develop his own identity in Trinidad, not because it's necessarily syncretic, but because it's actually a different or distinct spirit.
Yeah, good points, good points. You were going to say something.
That no, no, I was actually gonna say that. You want anything else?
Yeah, yeah, I think I think I'd like to talk about the universal aspect of some of these universal archetypes, like the which is a female vampire, but the universal nature I want to speak about that. I I've noticed a theme and then you know, we see if Jin could share some insights on this as well. But uh, the invitation, So like with this the soukn or this female.
Vampire, you have to kind of invite it.
In a certain way into your sphere before you're you're attacked. And invitation is not like hey, come over. But in Trinidad, invitation is all sometimes interaction like the you'll see you. You'll be in the market and the day and you'll see this female She'll say, hey, how are you doing? And then that interaction it becomes like an invitation into your into your sphere without you even known what's going on.
So I've noticed a lot of these things are like, you know, whether invitation of some sort of relationship with the you know, perceived victim, and a lot of it is like astrob based attext. There's a lot of power in the blood as well as magical power and blood. So the soken you just to catch the audience up
the speed. The souken is a female vampire in Trinidad folklore and it's the real real thing I've I've experienced it in in Trinidad I've seen and also in the States, but it's a female vampire and allegedly this female says magical prayers, then she's able to peel her skin and then spiritually she can turn into like a ball of fire, able to travel, and then basically in nighttime, you know, looking for victims to suck.
On their blood.
They're known to store their skin on certain magical trees, such as the silk cotton trees. And there's accounts, you know, in the stories and the folklore, and even my family they've told me that a common thing in the village is, wow, we got to find that skin. We know there's a soken you know, biting my you know, my family member or neighbor. We gotta find that skin. So often they'll find the skin. They'll put some salt pepper on the skin.
You know, the.
Sokena comes back right before dawn, right before daylight, and puts on the skin, starts screaming, it's scratching, it's it's burning, and she perishes. So that that's a popular account of you know, defeating the So so there's there's a really
rich tradition of some of there. And it may sound like stories, but I can tell you I've I've had firsthand accounts of some of these things, and a lot of my family members and close friends that have experienced this, and especially like my grandfather when I was younger, you know, he passed away when I was like twelve, but man, he used to tell me stories of things he would experience, you know, growing up in Trinidad in you know, world
War two, right after World War two. And one thing that overst struck stuck with me was he said, you know, we were more connected to the spiritual realm when there was less electricity, when we were more connected to nature, and like spirits was just a daily aspect to them.
It was no big deal. They weren't scared of it. They would interact with it.
Like my grandfather, he would work late into the morning, so he would you know, he'd be coming home like three four in the morning, riding his bike, and you know, he had a counter like all sorts of spirits block in his path, but he knew what to do. For some reason, they don't like sulfur. So when you light a match or that that that light, they disappear or they you know, there's certain a relationship with certain metals.
Like he told me there was a copper he would he would there would be a donkey sometimes blocking his his path going home, and he would just get off his bike, kneel in front of a donkey and hold out like a copper two pence whi's like a coin, and it would just it would just let him pass. And yeah, so I'd hear so many cool stories, like one was with the Jobless.
You'll notice some of these have like French names, you know, the Jobless.
Yeah, there's definitely a French influence at one time in Trinidad as well as Spanish. So the jobless, it's a beautiful female spirit. He often depicted with one foot on the road, one foot on the grass. The human foot is on the road, and the hoof of the animal foot is hidden, often hidden in the grass.
Whatever.
And it would often approach men at night and ask to walk with them.
And it it has a.
It's related to crossing water. Like evil can't cross water on its own, so these these spirits or whatever, it would either harvest your looche or like feet off you or you know, you'd you'd have to help it cross water or bridges. And my grandfather told me one time he was he was coming from the movie cinema late night. A beautiful and fair l you know, white dress, walked up to him and started walking next to him. But you know, he's grown up like spiritually where he quickly
realized himself what was going on. And at the time he was smoking cigarettes, so he lit a matchstick. She immediately disappeared with the cackle and taunted him you get.
Away, it is time ha ha, And it just disappeared.
And these these these were like common common things you know, in the nineteen hundreds, grown up, even even up until now, that.
Was great telling.
Was there any association with salt?
Yes, I'm glad you mentioned salt. So, so how do you so?
One of the questions I would, yeah, So one of.
The questions I was had grown I was like, how do you you know? How do you how do you tell?
If you know, how do you tell who's the sokenya or whatever in the village. So one way, which was a popular folklore, was.
Like on the main road you.
Would just draw with a line of salt, and whoever was the souken, you couldn't cross that line of salt. It would curse, it would spit, and then you you'd have a like a little sense that hey, maybe this is the soulken.
He So, salt plays a big.
Part in warding off spirits and evil. I've had I got a couple of stories with with some family members and spiritual battles and using salt, pepper, onion skins, garlic skins, and fire. You know that was a popular thing to ward off or enemies evil.
Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up at starting because the like, I think the idea of West Indian stortry gets a little It's not that it's inflated, because I think it has tons of potential. It's really cool, it's
really it seems really powerful. But I think that in like the more western cult circles, it gets like sort of inflated to the sense where it's like this and yeah, sure it can be like a crazy mountain man religion with like your summing lightning and all that, but I think really at its core it's about household magic and it's about like what do you have to use to treat practical spiritual ailments that you are facing like a sukion, like a dyabless or like a Gungang Sarahs they would
call her in Jamaica. So I just I think that that is the most interesting part. It's practical. It's like practical to deal with what you have and then also practical to use what you have. So I think that's really interesting for me is that it's it's like you don't it's not you don't even need the botanic or culture, because everything you sort of need, you kind of like are built in, like you have it all in your house, you know, like to say this thing or this prayer
or this mantra, and yeah, it's all dealt with. It's very much like Indonesian folk magic and even the same spirits like we have. Like the camel toad. It's not a joke. It's like she has camel's feet and there or horse feet sometimes and she wears she has shackles, sometimes she doesn't. Sometimes she floats, sometimes she doesn't. And then the sort of Dikinis or the Sukians, we would say that those are just unenlightened dikinis obviously because they're
trying to brownprize you. But they often live in trees like mango trees, banana trees, so there's a lot like my grandparents would never let us like pick any fruit trees after dark and not even near not even near dusk.
That's so weird. That's the same I'm here, sorry.
No please, I think that that's what's really interesting is that I can see a community even in like where I live, which is like obviously far north, but like French Canada, there's clearly some overlap. There's clearly some overlap with the indigenous stories, and then there's obviously clearly overlap with the sort of southern the hoodoo stuff, and then
you're getting into like the Caribbean after that. So yeah, you're definitely seeing sort of like certain things, not necessarily religion, but practices, ideas, and maybe like the origin of like mythological figures.
You could say, Elle, did you want to say something?
Yeah, I was going to help you. I was going to say that everything you were saying is so parallel to the way I grew up in that when you said about electricity, my grandmothers did not really particularly care for it. You know, they try to turn everything off or at least not have it on, have the windows open, and you know, always outside. You know, we grew up that way. They almost had a saying that don't be inside so much. It'll make you sick because of all
the electricity. And granted, I mean they grew up in the Great Depression, or they grew up with They grew up outside. You know, they they knew how to cook outside. I think I told Nick about this, how my grandmother grew up cooking outside. There was no, and it was with fire and stuff. There was no electricity whatsoever out houses the whole thing, right. But then the other thing that you were talking about is we have I guess
a lure or whatever called the Letusa. I don't know if you've ever heard of that, but it's a witch that is disguised as an owl. Specifically, I think it's not the barn owl, but I think it's of course the name. What is the me right now? But it will come to me here in a bit. And when the owl would come, the owl would have a certain call, and when it would say it would call out it was basically to tell you that something bad was going to happen, or that it is coming to clean the
life of someone. And so one of the practices was that you would go berry garlic where you saw the owl, or you would go berry garlic in the in the area that you thought was the owl, or kind of like create like almost like not a perimeter, but something of a barrier between you your dwelling and where you heard the owl. But when the other thing is that
you would not converse with it. But it's kind of funny that my grandma would say, if you wanted to know who the witch was, you would say, you would ask her vent Portu, Chile, and so the next person that would ask you for salsa or for chili or whatever would be the actual witch. So yeah, that's all I got for my story.
That was great, Lisa, thank you.
I remember back in the day when I was a kid, we didn't know of the tale of like not picking from a fruit trees or something.
Would you say again, So my grandparents would never let us pick fruit trees aft like at dusk, because that's when the pontiana, the vampire ladies, that's when they come. That's like where they live right during they sleep there during the day. But so it's okay to pick the tree, but they get they start to wake.
Up in the weird weird reasoning behind it. I remember this my grandparents' house out in Long Island. Is that like they would say, like don't because leave it, or that there was bat specter, and like it wasn't even them making it up a line, because like eventually once I got it, like a little bit older, they would they had a cherry tree and we would pick up ones off the ground and we would literally throw them up in the air, and you do that enough and
you'd see these motherfuckers start swooping for them. And I was like it was amazement, as like a kid watching bats to die for.
I was like, yo, this is crazy. Yeah, it's like, what are my memories as a child. I thought was wild?
Aren't aren't some fruit trees pollinated by bats and it only happens at night. And so because they would tell us.
Sorry, you froze up, Lisa, you still frozen?
Sorry, guys, they don't want us to know this information.
Guys, yeah about bats. Yeah, you're back, You're back, all right? Please continue?
Okay, sorry, just that I said. I don't know how much it cut out, but that bats pollinate fruit at night. There are certain trees that that are pollinated by bats at night. And then also they would tell us not to go into the trees at night because there were certain deities in there.
There was another thing.
Sometimes they had a huge weeping willow, like giant antic and we would take them and go underneath the wiping willow and we will look up inside, and if you throw them up, sometimes the bats would be in there and you'd see them swooping for the wild.
I thought it was a crazy.
The reason I say this is because bats are associated with vampires, and so that's the whole like like go between.
No, there's definitely a crossover, especially when you look at well, I'm going to talk about Indonesia for a second, but like, yeah, they have huge vampire bats. They have huge fruit bats, like they have everything. So it's like a very and then the teat is the same, like South America is the same. They have I don't think they have vampire bats, but they have like a lot of big They're pretty big.
From what I remember, I think that they're quite a large species of variety, and so I think that yeah, I think there's absolutely a connection. But I also think something Outsidarian said was caught my attention was that the seba tree or the silk cotton tree, this is a very important tree in Mexico for like Aztecs as well as like Centric It's very like Mayan, like that is the access mandy, that's the world pillar. But I think
this is where I can bring something interesting. Is this super important in Tntra, super important in Taoism, and it's super important in just general Asian cosmology as a tree that where ancestors live as well as where sort of God. I guess the ideas he kind of like the fingers of heaven are like kind of dappling the leaves, and so it has the most connection. It's like the most connection between heaven and earth. It's like the anteaque that
you could say. And it's very important in Chinese medicine, used as generally it's used for urinary tract infections and lungs, but it used to be used as an abortive sea fan, so that is kind of interesting. And it is used in folk magic a lot for cleansing, and I know Antarrea they use the leaves for cleansing, and I believe it's for alegua, but I can't remember specifically. So nobody, like nobody email me or on me saying that's wrong.
That might be wrong, okay, but it's a very it's a in the mallow family actually, so it's a very interesting sort of because mallows are somewhat like roses and they can be interchangeable. They often have five petals. If you look at a silk cotton tree, it is kind of like crazy very papaya orange has five petals. It's just it looks like it's on fire. That's another really
interesting thing about suba trees. When they're in bloom, they literally look like someone lit a blazing fire in the distance.
Yeah, if the sun catches it just right, it looks like it's because the leaves are just kind of going back and forth. Yes, I know exactly what you're talking.
About, So yeah, I could.
I'd like to to talk about what Jim mentioned about don't pick fruits at dust, because I could definitely relate to learn about that.
I could add a few things on that.
It definitely spirits in certain trees, and like the mango trees, the coconut trees, things of that nature. And I remember my cousin told me that his grandfather told my uncles don't cut down they wanted to build a house on the land. He's like, don't cut down these mango trees, all right, just don't cut down these mango trees.
So what happened?
He passes up, my grandfather passes away, and what do they do. My cousin wants to build a house.
He cuts down the mango tree.
Like a few days after, my aunt just wakes up paralyzed with this black shadow pressing on her and she could move and he just says, why did you interfere with my tree? But you know in the training accent, why did you why interfare with my tree?
And it was it.
Basically threatened to kill the family within forty days and then you know they had to do what they had to do to survive. But it was like it was like a movie. They would try to get the priest over to you know, do the ceremonies and whatever. There'd be a black dog comes out of nowhere just tackles this priest and he's a little crippled. He can't even get to finish the ceremony, but he makes it on time for the time and of the moon. And then they do what they got to do, and you know
they keep this uh, this spirit at bay. But there, Yeah, there's something all if I want to talk about is the people that they're connected to the land and the homestead. Is they understand that the sacred boundaries between day and night, work and rest, physical and spiritual. Is anyone familiar with the nocturnal do or nostoc the nocturnal do? Okay, Well, so I'll just say it's a little context and background.
When when I was younger and visiting family in trad I remember one late evening while we were gathered side an elder aunt saint to my cousin who was a new mother and had a baby daughter, cover her head. Don't stay outside too long, bring her inside soon. And I was like, why is she covering her head? She replied the do so I knew right away what she
meant without having to explain. So you ever seen the fresh dew in the grass or in the garden in the morning, So yeah, there were even if it didn't rain the night before, there will be some morning dew. Where is this moisture coming from? So spiritually, the moon rules over the night, and the element is water, which is related to the astral plane. And you know in the Nostoc in the Western tradition is a nocturnal This
is from Adriana. This Anthroposophus, somequoting from Nostoc is what the ancients called the unconscious atavistic do connected to the moon and what human beings experienced in the night. It is connected to the past, and it is the do of the alchemist and the unconscious inspiration we received from spiritual world which enters into our daily life when we wake up in the morning. It is the dream consciousness
of our karma. Right, so atophistic if audience is not aware, it's uh, it's it's referring to a recurrence or a reversion of a pastyle manner, outlook, approach, activity, or practice. Sometimes it's looked upon as not evolved, so it's devolved. So yeah, So I found that interesting. With the with the dow is connected with you know, don't pick.
Fruits at the night.
You know, this is a very spiritual time where you know, the activity is increased and you know, things go bump in the night.
So I thought that was interesting.
That's incredibly interesting. I didn't know about the dew so the event the Western or the Caribbean versions. I thank you for holling. I did want to add one thing that I thought was interesting a little bit earlier, but it also related to the fruit trees. Is there's a lot of spells. I'm not talking about tntra, but sometimes people will call it tntra, but it's not really tntras. That's really black magic. It's where you contract the spirits
of the fruit tree. So like those kind of sukan the female vampires, and you contract them for not just for enemies, but also for love, to make people fall in love with you, or to win the lottery or different things like that. And so you one thing I know for Indonesians or people from Cernamrigiana will understand this is they put the golden nails sou soup is what
we call it in Bahasa. So they put golden nails into the tree right at dusk, and usually they speak their name three times and then they tie a red string around it, and then a red string around their toe, and so the red string is never to come off otherwise than it's like fair game. But for as long as the red string is unbroken between the tree and the toe, mean that like each individual string is still intact and the nail is still intact, then you can
ask for you know, favors or gifts. So I just I think that's really interesting because it's like they are such a presence. So there's like a whole magical system that's developed like around and with them using higher technology, like higher contric ideas higher contric philosophy, but like in a very worldly way.
We'll say, So I'd like to tie that to some to called the Buckman, the Buckman is a something in the Caribbean.
It's basically dwarf. Dwarf people a tribe.
From Guyana and they're you know, they're like a small tribe of you know, dwarfs, and they basically they're able to grant you wishes if you take care of them and you feed them.
So the legend and the tail always goes.
They start off, you know, with with just like some fruits, you know, just give me some fruits, and and then it evolves into okay, can I get a chicken until it gets into your first born. That's often that's often, uh, you know, what's what's been told in the stories, and a lot of times they get success by this. So you'll see someone in in the village have a thriving business that's so competitive and people are like, man, you know,
that's great, what's what's he doing? And they'll they'll say, oh, he has a buck you know that that's something common. So it's curious is it called the bucking Ghana because I know there is some similarities, like the Succanese called the fire ross in Guyana.
So I don't actually know the term for those for like that specific category of beings but we have the exact same idea in Buddhism, the exact same idea in Indonesia, So they would just be like Yaksha's or just like small kind of like uh yeah, they're just well, there's actually Jamaican idea that's very similar to the Mommi Wata, so she is like the mermaids of the clear and
sweet water. So that's how they start out too, like beautiful. Yeah, they'll maybe have sex with you or whatever, and it's like, oh, it's all good, it's all good. You're just giving them perfume and fruits, and then then they want something more than they want something more, but then they're granting you a little more. So I think that the I think there's definitely a continuity. I mean, I know exactly what you're talking about. I just can't think of what they're actually called.
Gotcha all good? Oh good.
I'm sure there is some similar term in Guyana and a surname because you know it's.
Coming from that area.
Yeah, maybe to call it a different tribe of you know, maybe the indigenous name.
But I always thought that was a very interesting tale.
Well, the Yakshas are in charge or those like kind of gnome like nature spirits. They're in charge of the earth treasury. That's how we would describe it. And like obviously you know this from the promise. Yeah, so I mean it makes sense even in that cosmology that you would have like they're a little race of dwarf like bankers kind of that live under the earth.
Plane around. It's all good, No, keep going, jin, I didn't mean to rupt.
Oh no, that's okay. I just was saying, like, it does also make sense, like even in the broader like a pronic cosmology, you could just say they're yakshas, they're like the bankers. They're king is Kubera, so he doesn't grant any of these like lower wishes, but his hosts they can. So that's also like tying back to the DVAPA thing, like what are these like nature spirits if not hosts of a greater deity? I think that's an interesting concept.
Yeah, very good concept, are very good. Indeed, they're definitely connected. I think there's a sometimes a chain between the different beings or hierarchies.
For sure.
What did I want to chat about? So there's also so there's there's also.
The dwe right, So there's it's traditionally it's unbaptized children. That guy and and these spirits they have backward feet, and they're often seen in forests, and groups are single and dwins will are known to chase you to get you frightened and scared and then get you lost and you're found dazed and confused in thorny patches of the forest. And I was always like, what's the point of that,
Like what they're just scaring people? And and people would come out with like white hair, and like there's a constant theme that you hear, like, oh man, this guy, you know, twenty four year old had full black headed hair, comes out the forest with full, full head of white hair, so he was obviously very.
Scared and whatnot. And then it's it.
I just I just think maybe it's loosehart, you know, it's just just getting there's a high energy. If it's not blood, it's is your emotional energy. You're loose, right, So it is. That's that's the theme I've seen with like trying to figure out the why, like why why are these entities acting the way that they do, or what what's the purpose?
I get the blood part, it's you know the.
Electric energy, you know, the spiritual energy contained in the magnetic properties.
So I could see that, but it also ties into you know, emotional energy from fear, you know, things of that nature.
No, that's the one hundred percent makes sense to me, Like you would have spirits that cannot pass And I think that that's something interesting about like the Caribbean and like maybe the south you could say, like the continental part of North America that's like wherelease it lives or
you know, like Mexico or all that. I think that there is like an energy there because it is equatorial, as you said in the very beginning, And so I think that maybe it's actually harder for this if I'm like, just it's just a theory, but maybe it's harder for spirits to pass through fully, or maybe people are more engaged with them so they're more readily appearent, like they can more readily appear orreas in North America. They don't. It seems to be for me, it seems to be
like a lot more. Yeah, they're probably here, but you know, most people aren't necessarily having like daily experiences or like especially with these other classes, Like I think people have a lot of like what they think of as ghost experiences, but very people, few people have experience with like these greater entity entities or they don't know how to define them. So I think that that's kind of interesting.
Yes, indeed, and just time, it just seems some of these spirits are like to your point, like purgatory, like in a state of limbo between you know.
Death and the afterlife.
With the taral, which is you know, a female that's that's died in childbirth. That's such a powerful experience death in life right there, you know, the dwin these unbaptized children.
So yeah, there's.
There's a theme of you know, restless spirits and uh in trim that a common practice is from from a historical standpoint with like the Spanish, for example, the Spanish would sacrifice their firstborn child with their treasure, like their gold and and you know in different different parts of the land and whatnot. And this was Spanish magic. And there's accounts that I've come across from family members and and just people talking about that that have dreams about, oh,
there's some buried treasure in my backyard. But you always told don't take that up, you know, just leave it alone. You know, you don't want to touch that. And there's even my my dad told me he was in Guyana at one point. I got I gotta say, Guyana is to charge the vibration of that space. You know, it's it's so close to the equator and Amazon rainforest is
just so much pristine, lush greenery. And he was there, and he was at one time he was staying by his friend's estate and there was a strange dutch Man that came by.
And then he did.
He did whatever he chanced he had to do, and some some like chess came up with like you know, like coins and certain things, and then he was basically asking who wants to do trades, you know, like a deal, and the people on.
The line I was like, no, no, we're good, we're good. Keep it moving, bro, keep it moving. And he's like, all right, I'm gonna go.
And then he started saying his mantras are well whatever he was saying in his prayers, and some of the treasure was not going back, and he looked around and he was like, somebody picked up one of my coins, and if you don't want trouble, you better return of that coin, like right away. And it took him a little while or whatever, you know, but someone actually you know, came forward with with with one of those coins and I just want to tie that and yeah, and then
he left after that and whatever. It could have been worse. But there's a lot of there's a lot of like magic with with the with the family members. In Trinidad, one of the superstitions is your firstborn is very very powerful.
Especially firstborn sons are.
Targeted sometimes in magic and and and attacks. So it's it's really interesting with some of the superstitions and the science behind it.
Yeah, I think that's a great place to maybe discuss a little bit before we end. Is that sorry that kind of I'm taking your job. Maybe we talk about like the Oba man and like who that is and how he becomes you know, who he is and why he is the way he is because I think this idea of like like we have that idea too, of like a child, like an unbaptized child deity that protects treasure. This is more of a tie thing, but it's very
popular in all of Asia. It's called a Kumin tongue, and so it's like a little child spirit, very a legua that you feed a lot of people feed it blood. I'm not saying they do that. I don't have one, so you know, I'm not abdicating it. I'm just saying something people do and or they feed it food, or they feed it, they give it toys and like cologne and all this stuff. So they treat it like a real child, and it supposedly can do like little jobs for you once you get it to be like powerful
or you know, mature enough. And so yeah, it totally makes sense to me in a metaphysical way that like I'm not saying child's arch christ like for treasure, but I'm just saying, like I get why they would do that and then create like a sort of a gin you could say, or an aggregate or like a protector spirit to guard that treasure. And there are obviously you cannot really discuss the Caribbean without discussing the British West
India collaboration. So and just like the unbelievable role that they played in sort of shaping both modern like the piracy of the time, but also like the inter island commerce. It's also interesting to note about Obaman is that Duddy Bookman, who was one of the I would say the chief. They called him the Chief Bokhorp, so the chief sorcerer. He led the ritual to before the slaves went to
war with the French and Haiti. He was actually from Trinidad originally, but his father was a British Jamaican and his mother was an Afro Arrowwok woman from Jamaica. So he actually brought these kind of new rituals what became incorporated into voodoo. I'm just saying that there was a
magic and the inter island trade. They're both very interlinked, like even the treasure stuff, like they would have the sorcerers on the ships to not just navigate weather, but also to find these hidden treasures or protect them with like gayas or like sigils or you know whatever they're doing. So I just think that that's kind of interesting as well. I don't know if you have anything to add. I'm sorry I rambled a little bit, but I.
Don't apologize and you want to get anything you want to answer to that? Yeah, let me see.
Let me's just do my thoughts together here.
Sorry, you on the spot.
No, No, it's all good. No, that's all good. Uh uh no nothing at the moment. What else can we.
Talk about is there and you guys had any questions to help direct you know some.
Of what we're talking about.
I was going to interject a little bit with I know that you've talked about I've heard of Duan Day Tata Duan Day as being part of the Mayan at least from the Yucatan area. But then also you see in the Meshika, which is Central Mexico, Aztec and they have also the belief of children that have died either childbirth or before baptism or not baptism, because it was pre Spanish, but I think also it carried over to
when the Spanish conquest. And I'll tell you why here in a second, is that they believe the souls of the children were the monarch butterflies, and that and yeah, and that obviously you know with the monarch butterfly, they migrate down and they all land in this specific area
of central Mexico during all Souls Day. And so it is between October thirty first and or second when all of the monarchs have made their journey all the way down to Central Mexico, and they basically swarm this one area and completely cover all the vegetation, all the trees and everything, and it is said that is the children who have died, or you know, the souls of the
children and they have returned. So it's when you said that about the children, it reminded me of the belief system of the Michiga and the Miands.
You know, there's something absolutely to what both what you just said, Lisa, but then also Absidarian said about like how people on the land will have like a reference of a frame of time that is outside of our sort of modern conceptual time. They're kind of connected to the cycles, so like that transmigratory cycle of the butterfly, they're going to be aware of that. They're going to understand that it's a sign. They're going to understand why it's a sign, what it means, and they have assigned
a whole cosmological story to it. So I think that that's what I was trying to say with about the Obama like who is he's not? The people will say it's a shaman, It's not really a shaman. He's really a sorcerer. This is kind of what sets Obaa apart from maybe the more you could say indigenous oriented religions or even the more institutional forms of voodoo or Santa Ria from the other islands, is that he's really a sorcerer. He's almost like it's almost always a sorcerer for hire.
And interestingly, if you look at the more Christian oriented Obeia, they say that they're Moses. Often that's a dream they'll have, is like they'll have a dream of Moses, like the Christian Moses coming down from the mountain, and he will give them, not any kind of physical thing, but it's often knowledge. So it's kind of interesting just from a metaphysical perspective, like you have this figure dressed in white,
very like Judeo Christian. But then yeah, he very popular figure among Afro Christians as well because he represents the liberation of the slaves. So you kind of have this idea of like Papa Moses. I know in Saint Lucia they have a whole myth and a mountain that they say that this is where the main mountain where he comes down. And it's also interesting in connection to Mexico,
there's a tree called angels Trumpet. I'm sure Lisa's kind of familiar with their Brugmancia, and so that also grows indigenously in like all of the Caribbean, all the places we're talking about. So this is obviously related to the Detera plant, except it's actually a little more it's not as crazy, very powerful. Don't do it. I'm not saying they do it. So I'm just saying it's a little more contained. It's a little less. Oh it's a little less like what detura is. So it's and it smells
really great. It has like an incredible smelling is like a Schuperosa bush. So it's kind of one of the signs is like the Saint Lucy, Saint Lucia, like the the it's like the light from the eyes. So it's like Moses. So there's a big yellow Brugmansia. That's how it's considered is it's it's on the on a mountain, there's a yellow bush. It's it gathers you could say monarchs, you could say humming birds. Then then that's the dream. It's like that's the dream. And it's like the burn bush,
but it's not really burning. It's just like all the you know, God's creation or whatever however you're describing it. So it's like all of that coming together. Moses has made just like the hosts. Maybe you could say like the Sukions or the the DBA, but it's like the host coming into the one. Then you get the he touches your forehead, you get some kind of dream or
maybe a waking dream. I've heard both things, to be honest, I read a book called Oba and Other Powers, not in preparation for this episode, but in undergrad and he the most common story was actually gifts of healing, so it would always be about like how to heal. But people are complicated beings, so they don't always want to use that power for healing. They often want to use that power to make money. Or sometimes they say the obmn is so powerful that he curses people simply for
a penny, just because he can. So it's someone with like very it's almost like a supernatural level being, but they're also human. And then also something out of starting and said the black animals. I know this is also very popular in Mexico, this idea of the witch or the sorcerer becoming a black pig or a black dog
or a black bird. That's very common. So you have this also as well, Like you have this same idea, and I think I think the most interesting thing to me about West Indian magic is how simple credit it is without sort of losing its identity. So you could easily go into a botanica, put together a box of things and then give it to anyone on any island. They might use it a different way, but they would all know exactly how to use it. They would have a like I say, you would give them an oil,
a candle, maybe a couple of roots. They would all know what to do. I do think that's kind of interesting.
Jin You know what's interesting. When I lived out in New York, I used to go to the Bronx. This this botanical out there was gigantic. It was huge, and like I was a ceremonial magician, you know, and there was other people I knew too, even from the lodge. And then there was witches. So many different types of people went to that store because it's just the gross of we all could use the herbs. They had tons of oils, crystals, incense was crazy, cheap as hell, candles
that were good. Actually, you'd see so many different types of people going there just because of the stuff that was used in the practice was so brood.
A lot of this comes down to like cabala fundamentals. Really, it's like color, candles, positionality, timing, incense, like all of those just like very basic magic, like magic one on one, yeah, right right.
Yeah, when you're practicing, it's totally right moment, it's.
Like there's no real religious category that can encapsulate what that even is because it's like just taking fundamentals that are almost universal. Like of course everybody has their own system tweaks and their own cultural tweaks and their own kind of like individual mythology. But that's kind of all
bullshit too in a way. In a way, you know, because it's like it's so similar, Like there's just something something so recognizable, so universal, Like when I've seen like in Mexico where it's in Texas, when they do the salt smudging where they get the you know, the cast iron pan really hot and they have the salt there and they sprinkle the herbs or they do the spiritual batya, like we have that same idea. We call it Mandi bunga, like the exact same idea, Like you know, like we
come my dad comes from like an Islamic country. You wouldn't think that that would be an idea, but they do like seven flowers. That's also a very historic Latin Latin thing to do, like the siat flies, like the bad Bano forests. So then you have like we have the same idea. Isn't that crazy? Like two different places, all the way across the world, maybe hundreds maybe thousands of years the same thing, same numbers.
You know, miracles, the marigolds that are used during Day of the Dead, I believe, don't Indians also utilize the marigold.
So that's a great question and great observation, Lisa, So in normative puja that miracles are one of probably the most common, like offering flowers. For normative it's more krishnava or weishnava a style, but definitely they I mean it's very common you. I mean I can find contract icons with them too. It's not so distinct, but yeah, hugely common. It's it's very solar, right, it's bringing that enerdyte that like fire of the sun like down into the spirit kind of blew down into the battle.
I'd like to add with the marigols. And in the Hindu tradition it's.
Called ganda, so a maragoals are also associated with Gnes, to open the worship, opened up the portals Hermes, you know, mercury, and to tie in with the obiuman. The Obiuman is the kin to Hermes, a medicine man, a bridge between the spiritual and the physical. There's a great saying I came across in Obia.
It's if you.
Cannot feel the spirit, you are already dead, you know. So that just lets you know they're just so connected with work in the spiritual land and even the physical land, and you know that that's that was my key takeaway, just to add on what Jin and everyone else has been saying. The connection with the land, the folk spirit, the culture, the multi generational wisdom and tradition, the oral tradition,
the ghost stories. Ghost stories are a big part of my family and in in Trinidadian culture in general.
You know, people hanging out at night.
You know, you're grown up with your cousins and your hearing your the old timers talk about stuff like you think they're making it up, but like you know, if you know what they're talking about, and you know, you get some other eyewitnesses from your your cousins are personal experiences. You're like, wow, there is something more than just the physical.
Very well, said sir. I think we'll wrap it up there.
I guess if that's all right with you guys, everybody else, Lisa, this was anything you want to add.
Now, just I am.
I knew it was there. I had no idea how like what Jin said syncretic, how it basically blends all the different cultures and it's fascinating and that how much you see it in the different cultures over and over again. And to the point about at least growing up in Hispanic at least, the tie into very much, very much a tie into the land, and a tie into the land means to honor your dead, to honor your ancestors who have died, and then also to be respectful of
spirits and ghosts and stuff. And it wasn't to be so alarmed about, but it was more of a part of your life.
You know. I do a sur offering every morning, which is like burn cedar, yes today, So yeah, it's weird, right, Nick, like to use like in like Central Asia burns cedar for the spirits of the land and the dead, as well as like Native people on North America, just shows you that there's really one system a lot.
Actually half an instance.
If it works is the best is my favorite personal and Palo Santo like I like Paula Santoo.
Yeah all right, so uh yeah, I guess we'll wrap it up here. Lisa, thank you very much as well. Jin, thank you very much, man. This was actually your idea technically, I think so yeah, this this was a great episode. I really appreciate you coming up with the idea. And Absidarian, thank you so much Man for for joining us and coming with the topic since you know, you first in
this as well. Uh maybe if there's more we can talk about it in the future, but I'm sure we'll definitely have you on again, man, real quick, Absidarian, Well, actually we'll go with gen first.
Jin. Let everybody know where they can find your work, please, so.
Sure, I'll just keep it really quick. Thank you guys so much. Lisa Absidarian, it was honestly great to have you on. And yeah, you brought a really implementary and like incredible storytelling knowledge. So thank you for being like that on my episode, on like my idea episode. And thank you Nick obviously for asking me what my idea was and having me on.
She was just taking the idea like you know some other people do only.
Do Okay, well, I'm on Twitter with Hungry Born, w uk O and g Reborn and then also I have the show account at Threshold Saints. But then you can also find Threshold Saints on Spotify, Apple or anywhere you get your podcasts. So thank you guys.
Yeah, awesome. I really appreciate you joining us and Absolutarian. Let it is up, my man. Let everybody know where they can find some of your stuff.
Please, thank you, thank you. Well, it's been a great show you guys, Jim, Lisa and Nick.
I really appreciate you know this, this this dialogue, and it was really fun because this is not a well known topic and in general it's really very localized. So that was those fun sharing this this information. You can you can find me on LinkedIn. LinkedIn no, no, no, I'm not accepting me link tree, link tree, Absidarian, Absidarian. That's that's my real LinkedIn right there, link link tree.
All right, thanks guys, thank you so much.
Thank you, And uh, you know, tell you truth, we still have Robert, we don't, we have Rudolph Steider Part two that eventually we will be covering and this time we will be getting Lisa with us because she is a big fan of Rudolf and she's also a huge fan of the Rosicrucians stuff. That was That was the that was the other cult reject that I told you I was trying to save you for the other Rosicruction stuff for so we definitely have plenty of things to
talk about in the future. So thank you very much, sir, and uh yeah, until the next one. Everybody be well later