West Indian Magick Part 2

a really good episode. So thank you Nick for hosting my crazy ideas and you can check me out at Threshold Saints on x and also my personal account at wukongrie Born to be Uko and g Reborn and Instagram at Threshold Saints and the link Trio Vima show nott sas that I always is so so check me out there and thank you guys so much.

Indian magic. So I wanted to talk about a little bit of some of the other islands, what they're involved with, some of the correspondents and you know, look at some things happening today with some of these esoteric traditions and look at some not too well known connections with West Indian in the Western magic tradition.

And you know, my my dad has told me so many interesting stories about you know, Collige, which is such a uh you know, misunderstood daid goddess and there's not much known about her, just you know from writing. She's one of the Maha videos videos, which is the ten goddesses in the Tantric tradition. She's you know, she's usually the primary she starts at number one, and uh, you know, the other forms of the Maha videos are also aspects of Kali or Durga that some of the darker aspects.

But yeah, so I'll share one story my dad told me. My dad's my dad's uncle was a pujari for you know, it was a colleague devotee sada as best as I understand sada. Again, for the listeners who miss part one, Sada worship, there's there's two types of worship in the in the tradition, it's you know, white magic or black magic. But the white magic tradition is sada, which means, uh, you know, no blood. So it's you know, you're not

offering any any life or anything like that. That is not as popular as the the Black Contra section as far, which does. Yeah, so the Black Contra is much more popular because people, you know, people want to get rich, they want to be you know, they want to be powerful.

really good West Indian food. So you'll see a picture of the Davy, you know, the goddess. And this is a common theme. So a lot of the roaty shops and and the most successful business owners, by the way,

they participate in callie worship and they do offerings. I've had a cousin who worked in a roaty shop and she said, you know, for some reason, every year, some worker gets hurt or injured, right, and she's like, you know, I know the owner he's into like black magic and stuff, so maybe there's something related there that you know, he's he's offering some some you know, someone gets cut or some some some blood or injury every year. And that's

that's really popular. But back to Trinidad, that's that's also very popular. And back to the story with my dad's uncle. So my dad's uncle was a pujari with with he had his own collie temple and everything. And my dad's cousin was a female. She she committed suicide over a boy. Right, They just didn't work out. The parents weren't okay with the relationship. And in Trinida Ad, a common thing back in the day was if you're going to commit suicide,

it was with gramozoon. So you're drinking. I forgot what it is, but basically gets poison. Right. So, my dad's cousin committed suicide, and you know, my uncle, my dad's uncle is distraught and he's he's he's at the he and my dad went to console him and he was just there, you know, in the temple by himself. He was very sad and distraught obviously, and he says, you know, he said it was he looked at the watch. He's like, all right. He said to my dad, Hey, just just

wait right here. I'll I'll be right back. I just have to go make a offering and speak to Colligue. So my dad's just mining his business in the in the yard, and no one else is in the in the in the estate or the temple, and all of a sudden he sees his uncle just fly back like twenty thirty feet in the air like something knocked them, knocked them back like twenty thirty feet and my dad runs over. He's checking on my dad's uncle and he just looks like wow, he looks confused because he just

got hit with something. And my dad noticed like a big red mark on his forehead and he goes, what happened, what's going on? He was like, if I tell you this, you can't tell anyone. You know, this is between me and you. So my dad's uncle goes, you know, he was praying to the davy CALLI please please bring my daughter back, Please bring my daughter back, and then he just heard a voice that said I give life, not

so you can take life. And then he just got kicked in his head and he just flew back twenty thirty feet and he was just in a daze and dazzled. So this is just one of one of the Collie stories from Trinidad, and there's a few that's not something to be messed around with or taken lightly. So I thought that was a really interesting story that my dad told me. And another very popular temple in the South or Collie Temple, big following and whatnot, the hed Poojari.

One day he just he just committed suicide. He would have withoud a shotgun. And he was very beloved in the village and everything, and he was doing sada as best as everyone knew. He wasn't he wasn't into like the black margic part. And it always, it always confused me a little bit. I was like, wait a minute, this gentleman was not doing any black magic or anything as best as I'm aware of, right, and what what

what made him commit suicide? So this this so that, Yeah, that was just some some colligue stories from Trinidad, which is a very powerful goddess and uh, definitely not something to be you know, play around with lightly. And I just want to draw parallels in the Western tradition. I was, I was following the teachings of this really high rank in kabbalis. He was he was a Jewish mystic. And then he shared with me that one of one of the highest uh you know, the highest what is it?

What would he say? Uh? One of the arcanum arcnorums in his tradition was about related to Kali and it was Collie's mantra is her true mantra, tantra and yantra. So for the for for the view for the listeners, Mantra is sound and uh tantra is the practice, and yantra is the geometry, the mandalas and everything. So it's it's the practice from the sound and and and the the image, the correct you know, all that correct stuff.

And that really took me back. I was like, wait a minute, this guy's really high ranking Kabbalis and they practiced tantra. And then I went down a rabbit hole in India, the Jewish influence in India. I had no idea how many different times there were Jewish migrations to India, as early as the times of Solomon. Right, So there's at least six or seven groups just for the viewers, just for the listeners, Please excuse me, I don't have my full notes here, so I'm just winging most of

this from memory. But there's six or seven groups in India that are there. And I always found that interest and because you know, throughout history the Jews have been kicked out of over one hundred and nine countries over a thousand times, and I always found it interested. They were never kicked out of India, right, so they had

a firm foundation there. And then there's so many similarities between some of the groups, Like like the Sikhs, if you if you know who the Sikhs are with the Turbans, very very similar tribes because both of them are very you know, they're very loyal to their tribes. You know, Sikhs and Jews don't usually marry, marry outside or intermingle much.

They're good with business, they grow their hair, and there's just so many similarities I picked up on right down to you know, with the Old Testament you have you know, Abraham and Sarah, and in the in the in the in the Eastern tradition, with Hinduism you have Brumha and set Us with the right. So that's like there's just so many parallels with some of the words. One of

one of one word is pardisi, which is paradise. And I don't have the the Hebrew U name for it, but it's it's an acronym, you know, in in uh In, in Kabbala, each of a letter stands for another word. And you got to excuse me again, I don't have my full notes, but that's one of the most interesting uh rabbit holes I went down with some of the the letter mysticism and then and.

original word or the language. I always found interesting that it's just confirmation biased. They'll just plug it into whatever Gomatri system that you know, adheres to the numeric correspondence that they're trying to go after.

ways and look at it differently. Like even myself, I really don't kind of really put too much push on it or I think it's that important unless it's, like you see it fitting in with like everything else to where it makes complete. So you know what I'm saying, Almost where I'm using it again like polymants would, it's one part of everything else, you know what I'm saying.

that colleagues are very dangerous. Got us. It's very powerful. It's a instruction of time. I said that she was like I likened her to maybe the seventh density, if you want to call it that a banah, and how she is like the you know, she stands upon the corpse of time. She is like the destruction of all things. But it's also the densifying of all things because gravity sort of brings you into formation. So everything. It's like

the same as Krishna worship. Like Krishna and Kali you have that kind of like very close relationship, especially in Bengal. So I'm really glad that you brought up like the diaspora Jews in India because like the Koshin Jews were around the call it like the cal Katta Temple, they were around all this stuff. So in the tenth and eleventh century when the you know, the totala Tantra was

being written when all this stuff was like happening. Yeah, there were there were groups you did know, traditional Jewish kabbala that were there. So it makes sense. And I've positive that even though the ordering in the totala Tantra is different than the than the tree, it's not that they are. It's not that the suffer are in different places. It's that the light travels through in a specific way.

And so that's how they've mapped it out, just as like there's a lightning path and a serpent path and there's the different ways to cross the tree using those formulas. So I think that it perfectly comes together. It's like there's already Tndra is a synthesis. And something that Nick said was I was like, yeah, Nick, that's Tandra. That's like what it is. It's like putting it all kind of together and like seeing it as a greater whole.

And so yeah, I agree with that. And Callie is very popular among all of them, and so it's really interesting because in Indonesia that there is no Collie. She is just Dirga, but she looks like Collie. So she will be black and she will be ferocious, and she will have the lolling tongue.

a different wisdom goddess. So everybody has kind of like their framework that they use, and they're kind of like beginning ending terminus. That's sort of how I've been thinking about.

I don't know, maybe that's a little too you know, speculative magical theory, but I think that there is something that different places when they receive the text, if they continue to practice it in the same way, it's interesting to look at how it changes exactly how we're talking about from island to island, from place to place, because you would think of India as being the like origination,

which it is. But then in India they did not maintain the Samparadais, like the contric Sampuradis are very there's very few of them left in India. There are contract temples, but there's very few contract stampurdaise like schools that practice, like a mystery school that practice. So I just think it's interesting how they have preserved this stream of it, maybe better than in India. And then they've also preferenced

like a particular goddess. I don't know, just some observations, great, great feedback.

It's David Kingsley Tantric Visions of the Divine Feminine, the ten Mahavidias. And you know, when I was younger learning about esoteric Hinduism, I was. I was really blown away by David Kingsley's work. I got to give him a lot of credit. He really does justice to you know that that tradition. And of course you guys probably know Mike McGee the magician. Uh, he has the Shiva Shakti website also, and he he bought a lot of the the tntra to the West with his translations, his original

translations from a lot of the tontras. So Mike McGhee his his website I think is Shivashakti dot org or Siva Shukde something like that. But I'll bring it up later. And David Kingsley, great author, Jin mentioned the tree and I definitely want to circle back to what I was saying with paradise, and you guys will love this this esoteric breakdown. The word paradise is related to the Hebrew word pardise, which is also in Sanskrit and in these

par desi, which means orchid or garden. It is also not to rikhan or an acronym for peshet ramez deche sod. These are Hebrew terms for peshet. These are the Hebrew terms for each of the letters. Now right, Peschet is the literal meaning passed on by religious tradition. Ramez is the second letter allegorical meaning, The third letter duche hamolytical meaning, which is the applic application of the general principles of

rhetoric to the specific art of public speaking. And the fourth is Sod, which is the mystery or the secret meanings. So there's four layers, and you know, when you use the kabalistic key, you could you could break down language and a lot of different correspondence with this. Uh, when we talk about the four kabbaalistic worlds, they really they relate to these meanings. Although some fates do not utilize the sod or esoteric hidden meaning, most still use the

first three. If one grasp the first three, it is much easier to stare them towards sod, the mystery. So I thought that was a great connection there. Okay, so we talked about Collie.

it wasn't Paranic, and it wasn't Buddhist. It was just tontric. So you had all the different practitioners around. So Chinamasaka is actually a Buddhist goddess rather than a Indian contric goddess. So I just want to point that out. But absolutely

I totally agree with that. If you are a Khalikolis, meaning that your preference is Khali as the prime mover, So the number one exactly like Abstarian said, then you are going to view the tree as an emanation out of her, which also makes sense in a Christian way if you want to think of it like you're coming through the three like through Bnah. So you're just saying that time is the first or the destruction of time

is the prime mover in the world perfectly. I think anyone who has familiarity with the Coblosi tree could say that that's a possibility. So yeah, I think that's really interesting.

a Hebrew letter. You would place them in the specific triangles and then it would be a range according to like a moon a lunar calendar. So the way that you would order them going clockwise or counterclockwise, it would depend. It could shift depending on like what niche, a goddess you were worshiping, or whatever whatever important fostival there was.

formulate things. I don't know, maybe not, but so no.

So we're much more familiar with the ciphers they would use in like Crowley, like we can we can see there's a little spycraft at play. We may not understand it, but we know it's there. So I think it's become muddy because of how out in the culture it has become, and also our level of awareness, right, Like we're never able to speak like this at any other time in

history than right now. So you know, like how you were saying before, it's like the show that the dialogue that we have as multiple people, we we kind of create a polymath in a way for at least an hour and a half.

means the sixteenth, so it's a hidden sixteenth syllable. There's a fifteenth syllable mantra and she brings out the full mantra if you're initiated by mounted air, so it turns the fifteen seed mantra into sixteen. And I always found it interest in, you know what, as a corresponds to letters in my esoteric research, I've found in numerous sources from Papus to Saint Martin, they also claim that the original alphabet had sixteen letters. So I always thought that

was a really interesting correspondence. And I even drew the sriantra. So I was years ago. I was just fastened or Navatri, which is the nine nights for the davy. So you do fasten and you worship. And during that time, I was really into geometry. And let me tell you, when you draw geometry, that thing comes to life. It's similar they say, you know, if you have a tarot deck, it's even more powerful. If you draw your own tarot deck while fastened, you're gonna draw way better cards and

it's gonna even better correspondence. So a lot of magicians part of their training or initiation is you gotta draw your own deck. Right. So I remember, when I was learning a lot about this, I came across this interesting quote. It was Shiva is Shiva without shakti. Shiva means corpse, So Shiva is Shiva without shuks shakti. So that means, you know, the popular icon of Kali standing on Shiva with her tongue out. So there's just so much rich

symbolism right there. And I just had a thought, well, well, while doing this podcast, how you know, I'm sure there's a there's a connection between the ten Maha videos and we can map that on the tree with the ten sephara. I'm sure I just thought of this right now, but I'm pretty much sure there's a correspondence there right with the tree.

in a tontric way. She's raising the time king. She's raising Mahakala back into life from his corpse, just like the example you gave, Like shere Shiva without Shakti is Shava, right, So she's raising his corpse from Shiva into Mahakala into time, bringing time into the Leila. That makes a lot of sense to me. I don't know, just just riffing, I guess certainly.

the phallic symbol the creative essence. And in uh in Hinduism, esoteric Hinduism, the titties are the moon cycles. The fourteen is uh that that relates to that the titis which is the you know, one of the phases of the moon. So one hundred's there's a correspondence I see in Egypt and uh in in India. And if you look at Rudolf Steiner's cosmology, he says that the post Atlantis civilizations, the first epoch was in India and the second was

in Egypt. So and I always felt that was true with with my uh you know, my research and everything. But the first epoch in India we have zero written records, zero anything we have now it's those are like the third epoch with with the Vedas that came much later. So before there there was no written records and things like that. You just have to go into clairvoyance the Kashak records happened to the ether to really find that correspondence.

But yeah, I do see a very interesting correspondence between Osiris and Shiva, very similar symbolism and correspondence. So I'm glad you bought that up.

where you're You're saying is the first one. So if I think it makes more sense in the comparative comparative like theology, I guess is to look at Isis and Uma Tara rather than Ice and Callie. So I think that's where like that perspective, like where you prefer Tara as the prime how maybe how close were you to the original story or how close were you to the Egyptian story? And then different people preference different versions, right.

you constantly see the lotus or the water lily. You know, I know they're two totally different species, but bear with me, uh, and please correct me if I'm wrong. I believe the lotus and the water lily are protodymus in that one day they will be well. They first develop as female, and when a pollinator lands on them, they will close the flower, go all the way into the water, and

come back up as a male. And then the pollinator will walk around the flower, pollinating the rest of the area of the flower, and then it will close again, come back down and then come back up as a female. And then you know, the whole pollination begins and what have you. Isn't that Trojan or am I miss?

you're totally right. And I think that there's even in something interesting that you're saying with her Meth there's a hermetic sort of element of like transitioning between genders, right, And so that's also interesting to what Absidarian was saying about tripperro Sundery, because when I did those episodes with Nick, which is that's a long series they I talked a lot about tripro Sindery, how she is like in Buddhism she is kind of very very important Dakini goddess, and

that she is also the expression of the word, so she is the third cause, like if you're using the to reference with Absidarian said the Todala TNTRA list, Colley's number one, Tara's number two, number three is Tripperro Sindery, So she is the third cause. But there's also another way to read that. So time as you know, Lisa, as I've said, even between us before, one can never be one is not a prime number, so one can never really be first cause. So the second cause really

is where you start. It's perception. But then what is perception without like a container? So what is the container? Is the word? So you could say that in shri Vijia, that different school than Callikola, so they prefer trip or Sundry as their sort of like main goddess, and they would say that actually Collie is an expression of her, just as a colleae Cola would say that she is an expression of colleague. But she has more of a wide range appeals. She's not a dark she's like, she's

very she's a vibrant. She's much more vibrant, So it's it's a different I would say, it's a different polarity almost, it's like a different energy, but it's also talking about the same energy. So I think that's she her symbol is the lotus, and the lotus really is the sixty four triangles. And so we all notice that most Buddhists, most Indian especially shockeda goddess cosmology iconography, they will always

show a lotus. So some on the pictures with Nick that I showed with some of them had eleven pedals, some of them had nine pedals, some of them had one hundred and eight pedals. So it really depends on your system, what the text is saying, and then the artists artists preference. But I think to go with your point about the lotuses, it's kind of like that with language,

like about jamatria. It's like there are multiple expressions of the same system and then maybe over time the system degrades because everybody has sort of forgotten how to interpret it in the original way. And I think that's also like what the part as is.

or goddesses, it's to purify the bijas. So it's just to pure ritually purify them and make them like pristine again, like the primordial. So that's the difference really between like Buddhism and Hinduism. But there's something really interesting there. I think, like just like how we're looking at different systems changing, evolving and also localizing, because I think that's a big part of Jamatria and I think it's a lot a

lot of West Indian magic as well. It's like how it's localized to the conditions of different streams of influence.

and the symbolism. It was actually the lotus and the papyrus. I saw a lot and the papyrus. I learned that it represented Lower Egypt, which was the north, and the lotus was Upper Egypt, which was the you know, the south of Egypt. And you know the the lotus, if you know, if you know anything about the Egyptians, they spent a lot of time preparing for the afterlife, right, so the Lotus had to do with like rebirth and eternity, resurrection,

renewal of life. So I always thought that was really interested. And then I always wanted to do a study between the Egyptian Book the Dead and the Tibetan Book of the Dead. Any has anyone read any of those two.

it's very interesting. It's definitely influenced, like Tontra has definitely influenced modern magic. I mean we see it. We interviewed the guy from Temple of Set the other day and he that's a big part of Temple of Set, right, Like they they really love that Evela, the Bairava Tantras, the Collie Contras. They're really interested in them. Not that they're necessarily doing exactly what those say, they're interested in

the ideas. So I think that the like contra is really interesting to look at in the West Indian context because it didn't it sort of stayed the same, whereas Tontra sort of it evolved into something else. In the other parts of the world, there's kind of much more of the tradition of like, oh, it's like you worship

this to get rich fast. That's not really what Tontra's for, but that's kind of like the that's more maybe a village more village person's perspective, like they're going to worship the harder deity.

stuff you're into. It just seems to be something like meditation, same thing, you know what I'm saying, or if you're into certain breathing techniques. It's just like almost like a common thing that has just used no matter what you're into.

He was also a member of like the Calcutta's Masonic like whatever thing. They had a huge Masonic temple. So he was obviously crossing systems like way back in like whatever eighteen o five. Yeah, exactly, because they can see that if there's something there, something powerful like thread right and and like the universal archetypes, so it makes sense like drawing on the threads that we've been drawing on, like the Maha vijays. Yes, there's an absolute relationship to

the Keybrew tree, absolutely, like no question about it. Now, whether you want to use mine attributions or you know, there's other people who've done it. They just put Collie at Cather, which changes the whole nature of the tree, right. I didn't do that because that's not I didn't think that was cracked. So I did my own thing, like ahways.

So this is around eight p fifty CE and uh, let me see what was the name of the of the founder? Oh man, it's a go rock. It's a go rock something. It's slipping me right now. But does anyone know any anything about never even that stream?

and Shango is more more for Trinidad. So Obia is basically non centralized, right, there's not really not a central canon and uh, Shango is very similar. I don't know much about it, but it's a very similar local practice. And uh, I'll share a quick story Obia story on from my family. I had an uncle on my dad's side. He was born with a spiritual gift, you know, and with sight and uh you know, there's a lot of different competing traditions in Trinidad and the West Indies in general,

from you know, Obia Shango uh Tantra. And he was a teenager when he started getting his gift of vision and and and and you know uh and the gift of tongue, and he couldn't handle it. He would trip off every noight and he'd have like episodes, and the family, you know, they would go to they went everywhere for help. They went to the imams which Islam, they went to

like Christian priests, they went to Hindu pundits. And we found that there were people trying to steal his gift, which is a very common practice you know in the village, as if someone knows you have a spiritual gift, they would either try to you know, bring you down or you know, take your gift. Right, So this was this was what was happening with my uncle. There different people were just trying to take his gift. There's a Obi, a man living across the street that would always you know,

do black magic and mess with them. And this Obi a man actually killed my grandfather with alcohol. He he came out of the hospital and you know, with some ulcers and stuff in his stomach and he couldn't drink, and the obiaman across the street was like, hey, let's have a drink for old times sake, YadA, YadA, YadA, And we found out that, you know, he was just really just trying to do black magic on the family and everything. So, uh, after my dad he was like, man,

we're taking my uncle everywhere around. He's not getting help. Uh, let me go to Guyana because Guyana at the time was known for the for the buck people. These these are like the bush people, the bush like they were indigenous. They're you know, they know the land. They're really powerful magicians. And at the time, you know, my dad he told this great story. He was just you know, he's in

the forest. He had to go with the canoe for like miles and miles and then he met with this female shaman just in in the in the Amazon rainforest, right and uh and she just smiles when she sees my dad. It's like I've been expecting you. So my dad tells him, tells her the situation. You know, everybody's trying to my uncle's gift. What can we do. We went some we've tried to get help from somewhere. So

many places. He keeps tripping off, he's having like psychotic episodes and he's getting violent, and uh, He's like, yeah, well there's you know, the obium on is really sending a lot of send sending a lot of magic his way. Before I do this, I could reverse it, but you sure you want to you know, you shure you want to reverse it and everything. This is very powerful work and I'm not sure what will happen. And he's like, yeah,

and I forgot what she did. She did something, She did some some prayers and then she threw some nails in air. And you know at that time, you know, there's no cell phones or anything like that, right, and then she threw the nails in the air. She did her work or whatever, and then they left and my dad went to uh back to Trinidad, and he went to his house and there was a funeral across the street. While he was there. He was like, oh, the Obie

man passed away while you were in Guyana. And they did the time correspondence, like my dad was with the with the with the bush Lady, the buck lady. She was with them around nine o'clock when he when she threw the nails in the air. My cousins and my aunts and uncle there there was like, oh, we heard a big scream from across the street around nine o'clock. Right, So this guy passed away and then a few months later his house burned down and whatnot. And then my

my uncle calmed down. He was like normal with the parentheses, you know, he still had his vision and whatever. But my dad a couple of months later he went back to Guyana because he would go to Guyana, he had family over there, and he just went to the lady to thank her and she passed away. Because it was just such powerful. You know, when you kick back magic sometimes it goes back to you. And this but my

dad's a better storyteller. I don't have the notes, but man, what a story he told me with this whole ordeal, with with this happening. And real quick, while we're on the subject of Guyana, I had an uncle who also very spiritual gifted, and his in laws were in Guyana and they invited him to Guyana. And they were Collie devotees, right, but they were they were doing the black magic Collie and they would they were keeping them up every night.

They were just keeping them up. He just wasn't able to go to sleep, and you know, to try to go to sleep ute and then they would take them to these Collie pooges and offerings and whatnot. And after a while he realized something's wrong. So I'm not sleeping,

I'm on edge. Let me get out of here. And then when he went back to Trinidad, he was on the Christian side, so the priest came, you know, they did exorcism on him, and my cousins were on the road and they were like they were just seeing like spirits coming out of my uncle, like and they counted like twenty one, like you know, you've seen shadows, You've seen like light bulbs, and yeah, I just wanted to tell another Colligue story on, you know, on the darker side,

because there's a lot of black magic, and Guyana is known for the Collie magic and it's really powerful what they do, but they do a lot on the on the black magic side. So I thought that was a very interesting connection there.

So she is also considered an emanation of Collie, but she's also considered an emanation of guan Yin, and she's also considered a more comesticist figure among some of the Obeya people or the Shango people who also visit the shrine. So you have Catholics, ostensibly Taoist ethnic Chinese people, you have Obeya people, and you have Hindus, all worshiping the same figure. And they all have slightly different names, but

interrelated names. And it is supposedly the Sight of Miracles, and it is the statue is supposedly self arising, as they found it miraculously in a cave and a mountain, is how I believe it's I remember, or it came from the ocean. I can't remember the exact story, but it's one of the two. So I think she's really interesting, and she is very dark skinned. Among the marys so and like visibly ethnic, but not it's not black. It's

it's kind of like a black Madonna thing. So I don't know, it's interesting.

Miami and New York because of the diaspora. So but I think voodoo is interesting. I think that what you said about the Shanngo, they remind me a lot of Zoroastrianism, so I've always found that very interesting. They focus on the seven main or Risha's the seven sort of like rays of the One God. Something interesting about that. And then but then to tie it into voodoo, well, Voodoo is obviously slightly different than Santoria because it comes from

two different places in Africa. Voodoo has more of a Dahomeian origin, and they say that Sanuria has more of a Yorubin origin. But I think that you can make a case also that it's a lot more intermixed, and a lot more indigenous, and a lot more European. It's sort of all three things at the same time. That's my opinion. So voodoo is no real difference than maybe like seventeenth century masonry with like some hellfire rights. They just you know, it just looks a little different, but

it's there. I think there's something that is understandable and very I think it influenced a lot of people, as I've referenced on the show, like before, like the Haitian the Gnostic Haitian Gnostic Handbook by Michael Burtio that was one of my first like left handed grimars I ever read. And he he I don't know if he's really into voodoo or what the whole weird Covin was doing, but he's definitely drawing ideas. So I think that there are

some like really interesting ideas with the sigils. I know you brought that up up, Starr, and so yeah, I'll let you go.

this this nugget really interesting. I was researching Martinize de Pascuale, who is an early Martinist, and uh, he started Lewis Cohen's which was the Order of Knight Masons, the elect priests of the universe. So they were known for doing a lot of ritual work, a lot like daily hours and hours of ritual work, really heavy stuff. And Martiniz de Pasqually he died. I think he died in Hispaniola, an island between Cuban and Puerto Rico, the Greater Antilles

of the Caribbean. I'm not sure, but somewhere somewhere around there. I always found it interest in that, you know, he passed away over there, and after that, the Lewis Cohen tradition just fell apart, and you know, they didn't have all the information, they weren't initiated into the high rights. Fast forward to the present time, there was a little rebirth with this movement with the OMS. It was a Martinist group, and there was this really interesting blog called

the Three Luminaries. It was one of the one of the writers was Paul Edward Rana. Very interesting character. I've seen his interviews, and really upstanding gentleman he had. He was really really brilliant mind, he was dedicated, he was well loved. And he passed away in twenty twenty three. It was a suicide, self inflicted gunshot. Won't they say it was an accident. You know, he's just playing around.

I don't know the details, but I bring that up because he towards the end he went full Christian and he left the OMS and the Martinist teachings and all occult work, all that ritual work aside, and on the Three Luminaries, he talked about his journey and that you know, he researched, you know, the symbolism and he found that, you know, he was not a fan of Martinise the Pasquali at the end, and he compared some of the higher teachings that they had, you know, evidence of, like

the vevet, the visual symbols of voodoo. So I thought that was a really interesting connection between you know, you know, European tradition in the West Indian tradition, how much influenced the islands had on Europe at the time, the seventeen hundreds, And yeah, this is just that was a very interesting rabbit hole going down. Does anyone know anything about any of little subjects that they want to?

folk magic in it. So like Haiti, it's French Catholic ostensibly, so you would use that Rosicrucian framework and or that French blue pillar whatever that is. JJ's not here, I'm sorry, so but that blue pillar masonry, whatever the French people were doing, that's what they would use. So you can tell there's like slight variations. And I don't know enough. Excuse me, I don't know enough about the Martinists to make like a even a couplistic judgment on like what

they were doing or what they were thinking about. But just from what I understand, it seems to be a lot more pervasive than I think a lot of people talk about, and that it seems to be like an undercurrent within especially because we all speak English as our primary language, but in Anglophone occultism. That knowing that very few people do discuss Yeah.

so I do know to do it. But yeah, there seems to be a little resurgent, the resurgence of that, especially like you said, Miami is a big hub Los Angeles and New York. But what I learned also, there's just so much ceremonial magic being done in the United States and it's related to voodoo.

I guess I was into herbs and oil. There was times where I would actually take voodoo, I guess recipes and incorporate that into my ceremonial magic, my rituals, even though I'm not necessarily practicing voodoo, if there was a way that I could look at it and align it with what I was aiming for, Like you know, if I was using a certain sphere on the tree, if I could figure out maybe if that kind of I might be using that same type of thing with these

you know, herbs and oils, I would incorporate maybe, like you know, something from voodoo, like a voodoo recipe in a sense for a spell. And I know a lot of people that did that. There was I forgot the name of it, but there was even like some book that had like voodoo stuff like that, and it was kind of like real easy to read, that was like rather well known that went around the magical community. People

would use the spells and stuff. But like again, I mean, yeah, I guess you if you're a thlemic magician, you're gonna look at different practices and I'll try to figure out a way to I guess align it kabbalistically to use it yourself. So but I did that with voodoo at times. Long story short and I know plenty of people who have And another thing, you know, I did want to bring up. Maybe we can end with this question, hopefully. I mean, it's kind of a deep question, but maybe

we can, you know, summarize it rather quick. Who do and voodoo? I don't know if we do we I don't know if we kind of went on about this in the first one, but like, what would be the difference to you, Absidiarian, because in my opinion, I have heard that there's differences in it, and that I do think that the kind of is as well. I do think that one of them might actually hear more to a pantheon than the other one. What do you think, Absidarian?

remade three times. But anyways, there's one from the early two thousands. It has a lot of real who Do in it. If you're interested in how that works, I suggest you go watch that movie. There is E've been a Saint Expedite statue in that film that's very prominent. Saint Expedite's very important even among Protestant who do practitioners, so because he can represent a crossroads man in some ways of thinking. So that's that, And so who do

utilizes basically everything. The people who were running what they would call pharmacies in the nineteen forties were all Jewish, so then they started incorporating not just root work, but they started incorporating like psalms, kabbala, the Anarriva books, all of that. Taro like it just is that's it sort of was the genesis of what root work has become now. So that's that was That's kind of like Obeyah, it's kind of like Jamaican kind of magic, Like there is

a Congolese element. There's an element of like working with the dead, spirits of the dead, controlling ghosts, maybe not

to the same ritual degree. I know, you guys did the show on Adelfo Stanzo I want to call him, yes, okay, yes, So that so that there's an element of what as him as like whatever I know he was like a Satanist or whatever, but like the whatever Polaro he said he was doing, there's an element of that that is somewhat similar to what they are doing in Obea sometimes and who do sometimes, but maybe not to the advanced, like I don't think that they've maintained the tradition. It's

not like some pristine African idea. So it's like a little degrade, it's a little more black magic. It's a little folk magic y that's not matter, that's not not any in judgment. So then voodoo is just adheres to the strict Maybe the cosmology is stricter. So there's one God though it is monotheistic, but he's unseen unheard. I think that's a big part of it, and he can only really be expressed in the trinitarian idea, so like the triangle with eye. And then then his main emanation

on earth is don Balah. So if you've seen Chucky, you've heard that Dambala does not do that. In fact, he does not grant gross magical powers. It's for healing and great works I guess in the world like very powerful. So in different houses syncretize saints differently. So I know this has been a lot people get very bothered by

the syncretism. But the syncretism to me actually follows quite a logical pattern for the most part, Like why you would align certain saints with certain spirits, and it's not really a mask or a cover I think it actually relates a lot more to the co holistic ideas or to the yeah, metaphysics of the actual spirit rather than I don't think it's a cover up. I think it's just using something. Yeah, you're exactly hermatic principles.

would voodoo. I'd be using it specifically let's say, Papa Legua, But now I'm going to use it for like Elo Him's mouth. So now it's like, you know, now it's like probably hudoo because it's that being specific to a pantheon, you know what I'm saying. But you're still trying to use that idea. You think like that could even be like another way to maybe explain the differences. It's more of like maybe like the magical practice and an actual set to those gods. I don't know.

an intermediary between man and the spirit world. So this is the reminds me of Hermes right, and also in Obia, the obia man, the medicine man is you know, a bridge between the spiritual and physical realms. And in Hinduism you have Gannesh, which is the mercury archetype, and in Hindu rituals it's usually you start with with Ganesh to

open things up. So I think that's a really good connection there, and you know deals with hermetic principles, so really interesting themes how to bridge the physical and spiritual. So I'll leave it at that. Thank you everyone for having me on again. You can find me on link tree at Absidarian Peace Liesome.

the bottom. Thank you well again and until the next one, everybody be well. Later