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Attention pastures? Like eighty eight to the Optic Nerve is now boarding Gate seventeen scheduled to depart at time thirty AF.
Welcome everyone to tonight.
On the Occult Rejects, we're biting into a very specific kind of forbidden fruit, the kind that doesn't promise purity or certainty at all, or even maybe uncertainty. It promises paradigm whiplash. Our guest on the Occult Rejects is Thumper Forge, also known as Horkos Gardinerian high priest, a voice in modern pagan media and someone who moves comfortably between traditional witchcraft structures and the grinning, reality bending current of chaos,
magic and discordian Is. His book, The Chaos, Apple, Magic and Discordianism for the postmodern witch is a guide to weaponizing belief as a tool, bending it, swapping it, breaking it, and rebuilding it while dancing with airis and laughing at the parts of the universe that take themselves.
A little bit too seriously.
So, if you've ever wondered whether magic is about faith, focus, story, psychology, or a cosmic prank that still somehow works, this episode tonight is here for you.
Boom beautiful.
So on this fine occult Rejects time, we should probably introduce the panel of brilliant rejects.
As you can tell in the far corner.
We have the Cardinal electric Head himself, the King of Kings, the Great Nicholas. I'm using his voice and I'm throwing it over to him. Introduce yourself, Nick.
What is what's going on? Thank you so much? That was amazing. Oh that was great. Yeah. If people wondering, uh yeah, my broadcasters.
Are working and it's just a complete mess. So I'm using the laptop and ye whatever. So thank you very much for doing the introduction. I never could have done it as well as you or even sounded the audio quality.
Wouldn't have sounded as well either, So yeah.
I think I think I'm gonna have to start using you now one actually, So thank you, because I honestly I hate doing intros, I really do, so.
You got the job. No thanks, but yeah, I really appreciate it. Brandon Thumper. I'm really excited to have you on. Like I was saying before, you know, I want to
tell people too his book. Yeah, I read I don't know, probably maybe the first forty pages just keeping a real but it reads completely different than most, Like it really was something that I was like, oh, I feel like I'm being told a storytelling, you know what I'm saying, or it's like, oh, it's like like one of my boys, like having a funny conversation with me, you know, like we're hanging out, you know.
So it's a really good read, and I'm.
Promoting it because it's just written a little bit differently and I liked it, so, uh, yeah, I'm really excited to have you on and and there is a lot of information actually in there. That is one thing I'll say. You're not going to get some chaos magic book that is like you know, yeah, it was all right, not too bad. There's a ton of information in the ship to so definitely check it out. And Thumper, thank you so much for coming on. Man again, I was really excited.
To have you on.
And uh yeah, uh, I guess I'll pass it on to uh Judith, let's go, No Jen, Jen, my bad, my bed.
We'll get Jim forget about it, Okay.
No problem.
I'm I'm cool if Judith finding a day, but I'll take it.
No, then I'll forget you at the top and then I'll suck it all up.
Well, what's up boss? Thank you so much, mister ninety three, and of course brother Brandon for that amazing uh intro for the whole show. I'm Jin the Ninja. I host a show called Threshold Saints and we'll try out my new tagline which is chaos, love and hypersition in the
a of Flux. So if you interested in my show Threshold Saints, you can check it out on ig Spotify, and of course my substack, which is Threshold Saints subsack dot com, as well as at Threshold Saints on ig and x Twitter, or you can follow me on my personal account at Wukong Reborn which is wu Kong Reborn. And I have a lot of episodes coming out and a very very very special episode with David him Smith coming up and it's going to be pretty epic, so
look out for that. And uh yeah, I'm really excited. I love Obviously my background is more chaos magic, so this is kind of the kind of show that I would love to do. And so I appreciate everybody on the panel, And thank you so much Thumper for and Nick for having you.
Nice. No, thank you, thank you sir.
Actually I think I got that guy coming on soon myself, Mike Baker wanted to actually try to come on with them, so we're going to schedule a date. So nice, nice, look forward to that coming out.
Robbie, what is going on?
Yes, doing great. Been working on illustrations and just a lot of pushing inc the last few weeks. I'm Robbie Marx or R Marx artist illustrator and if anybody wants to check out any of my other stuff, I have my metamind Cast podcast as well as all my miscellaneous art on my social media et cetera, et cetera. But you can check out my link tree which is link tree r M A r X and that'll pull up everything for you. And yeah, thanks for having me, and I'm excited about this.
Yeah, thank you, Robbie.
Unlast, but not least the Loon or Self Judith, what is up?
Hi?
Thank you for having me.
I am so excited for this discussion. Unfortunately I haven't read the book yet, but I am motivated to read the book. You could catch me on YouTube and on x as the Loon. I do more of self inner development, and I have an episodisode coming with one on one with doctor Rachel you remember her nick, and we're just going to have two occult females having a chat. And I have a couple of more things coming up. So check me out on Twitter and on it.
Nice get it?
You get it?
That is what's nice? Listen all right? So Thumper, Well, unfortunately, it's like the same question I asked everybody who comes on the show that's in to the occult, what.
Got you into this?
Like how did you find yourself one day saying, Oh, this is what I'm going to get into, and I'm going to make this all you a life journey.
You know, when I was about twelve years old, I was flipping through a newspaper in like my parents' sitting room, and I found there was an article about a coven of witches going to see the Witches of Eastwick in the theater, and it was sort of a fluffy kind of human interest piece, and I think in retrospect it may have been Lord Cabot in her coven, but I didn't realize that there were actual witches in the world.
And so twelve year old me looked up and looked at my parents and said, I'm going to be a witch. And my good Episcopalian parents were like, you know, maybe we table this, we don't focus on for now. But that got the idea stuck in my head. And I had always been interested in mythology and different religion and just so in my late teens and early twenties, I just started reading a bunch of books on witchcraft and paganism.
And in my late twenties, I was very skeptical about a lot of the things I was reading, especially when it came to Wicca, so I went and found a Gardenerian Tuvin because I was like, where did this come from? Like you guys have to like I wanted to know, like the reality behind it, and I ended up sticking with that and then eventually stumbled into Discordianism kind of
by accident. It was very similar in that Airis had always been my favorite goddess when I would read about mythology, and then to learn that there was a whole religion devoted to her really really just struck a chord with me. And not long after that, I pratt fell into chaos magic, and uh so I've been kind of doing all of the above ever since.
Nice, what what is it now as we get into this book?
What was it with this book.
For I guess chaos magic and Discordanism that you thought was different or that they needed this book?
Like?
What's different about this book than what's out there already? What did you think you were handing to the people. That's a little different if it was.
What I really wanted to focus on was the idea
of chaos witchcraft. Especially in online spaces. There's been sort of a growing identity of the chaos witch a lot of people identifying as chast witches and nobody really knowing what that meant, you know, people kind of having a very broad general idea of chaos magic, people having a very broad general idea of witchcraft and combining the two as an identity, but not really knowing what that meant or having having any direction as to what they should
do with that. So that's what I was really trying to write for. Is you want to be a cast, which great, here is here are resources for you, here's information about that specifically.
Nice.
Nice, heyboy, I have any questions before I keep going? Yeah right, uh, I know you.
I mean I think you mentioned also Uhian witchcraft and all that stuff too.
Yeah, would you would you want to give like.
A little bit maybe a little bit of an idea for people what that is, because I'll be telling us I've never really had any ring on the show for that either, So like some people might be interested just getting a little bit of an idea of like what actually does that entail.
You know, Gardnerian Gardenerian witchcraft. The way the best way to think about it is it was what came like a generation before Wicka. The very condensed history is there was this British guy named Gerrel Gardner who had been living overseas for number of years, retired, moved back to England and got involved with a Rosicrucian order in the
New Forest area of England. And in that group he met or in that organization he met kind of an inner circle of people who called themselves witches and really all they wanted to do was like practice witchcraft and punch nachi, not scenes, and he fell in with them,
and that was in nineteen thirty nine. In nineteen fifty one, I think it was was when the anti witchcraft laws in England were repealed, And by nineteen fifty four he had published a book called Witchcraft Today, which basically said I am a witch and I am part of the coven, and here's here's a little bit about us. It's an initiatory practice, so you have to go through an initiation to be a part of it. It is oath bound, meaning to take osad initiation, not to reveal the things
that you've been experiencing. But modern wick or the idea of Wicca kind of grew out of that. Some people who came along shortly after he passed away in nineteen sixty four had kind of found the word wicca and were identifying themselves as wicked versus just calling themselves witches, and that word stuck. But the Gardnerian tradition is just sort of the precursor to what we now know is wicked.
Thank you.
Side note.
Gerald Gardner was initiated into the OTO by Alistair Crowley.
He did he was given a charter by Crowley in that at some point in the mid to late forties where thirteen forty seven, thank you, thank you. Yeah, he didn't ever really do anything with the charter, and there is floating around out there. There is like Alistair Crawley's handwritten charter that Cardner kind of got from him on Crowley's deathbed. So he did have proof that he was a member or that he had authority within the OTO,
although he didn't he didn't ever really pursue that. And while he was in the early uh in his kind of the early days of his practice, he incorporated a lot of Crawley into his witchcraft. And then some of the witches who came along to practice with him took all the they called it Crowley Andity, and they pulled it all out and replaced it with their own original right, so the Crowley didn't get passed down along with everything else.
I think, I think I had so many I had somebody on the show recently where I think we're talking about the Charge of the Goddess and how much that seemed to like it was even very heavily taken from Alison Crowley.
I think in the Book of the Law.
Yeah, a couple of sources it came from.
There was the Book of the Little influenced it.
There was also a passage in Charles Scott free Leland's Roady a Gospel of the Witches.
Which was published in eighteen ninety nine.
But a lot of this put that film and getting filtered through a woman named During Valiente, who Gardner initiated in nineteen fifty three, and she rewrote a lot of stuff, including the Charge of the Goddess.
Nice if you can also, because uh, I haven't, I've only had like maybe two people on for Chaos Magic too. Can you give me, like, you know definitions I guess chaos magic versus discordium and witchcraft, Like where do they overlap?
And that where do they? I mean they kind of overlap a little bit, maybe could you maybe give that, you know, give that definition of people.
Sure chaos magic is, you know, I would love to say it's we get together and shoot chaos from our hands or that, or that we are like you know, out in the eighth or doing doing chaotic things. But it's really just an experimental approach to magical practice with an emphasis on getting results. Of the idea of chaos in modern context, people tend to see it as meaning chaotic or meaning frenetic or kind of undisciplined or all
over the place. But within the framework of chaos magic, the chaos is more of the Greek idea of chaos, sort of like the primordial entity that existed before anything else. So chaos is potential, and within chaos magic, the idea is to take that potential or take potential and turn it into not only possibility but probability, if that makes sense. And the idea of chaos also kind of promotes the idea that we can kind of go in any direction
we want to to accomplish our others. If you think of you've probably seen the chaos star, the kind of eight pointed star with the arrows. Yes, that was kind of conceived by an author named Peter J. Carroll, who attached a different color of magic to each arrow, which he sort of lifted from the Cabitalistic tree of life.
If you move like moving through the separophemy in Hermetic Karbala, you started melcouth, you start at the earth, and then you kind of work your way up through the different spheres as part of the great work to you know, become part of the divine or merge with the divine. In chaos magic, we're in the center and we can go off in any direction we want to, based on what our interest is or what we're trying to accomplish. So that is, in a nutshell, what chaos magic is.
Discordianism is a modern parody religion based on the worship of the Greek goddess Eiras, who is the goddess of discord, who is sort of a minor player in classical Greek mythology. But the founders of Discordism in the late fifties learned of you know, we're read something about Greek mythology and learned there was a goddess of discord, and they thought that was hilarious. So they decided to base a religion around her. It was absolutely supposed to be a joke.
It was supposed to be a parody of organized religion and just sort of a way to stewer organized religion. But it caught on and people started taking it seriously. So there are a lot of people out there taking the not serious, very very seriously in practicing religion based on that. And then witchcraft is that's one of those things where you've asked, you know, ask ten people, get a lot of answers. But in my mind, witchcraft is
just unauthorized magic. It is magical practice that is not approved of by whatever the authorities or dominant groups happened to be in a given culture. Chaos magic practitioners tend to refer to themselves as magicians because they're still kind of working within a societal structure, a chaos which, on the other hand, is working sort of outside of the dominant paradigm and kind of doing their own thing, not only for their own benefit, but to kind of do
what they can to influence the world around. Hopefully any of that made sense, I can try again.
It didn't well, And you said, you know, Airis, I mean, she is a rather minor character in regard to the whole story of discord and sowing that chaos and rolling that golden apple in for the goddesses to determine, you know, which one is the most beautiful. But at the same time, she's also the spark or the catalyst that started the Trojan War exactly.
And the thing with Aris, and I mentioned this in the cast Apple, the thing with her mate, with that kind of foundational myths of the Wedding of Thetis, is that at any time someone could have made a different decision and prevented the Trujan war.
Aris.
You know, Aris gave them opportunities, and all that had to do was was make a different decision. In my mind, if you're at a wedding banquet and a golden apple marked for the fairest rolls into the room, you give it to the bride. It's her special day, right, But the goddesses didn't do that.
You know.
The reason they were having a wedding was because Zeus had arranged a marriage because there was a prophecy that any son of Thetus would overthrow him, so he was trying to prevent that from happening. You know, the goddesses all tried to bribe the judge. Hermes, you know, could have picked a different judge. It just it was one bad decision after another, and so the fault of it
can't really lie with Eiras. All she did was thrown into the room and everybody mad decisions that resulted in the well and.
That's the chaos.
Yeah, that is the.
But yeah, she she's always she's painted as the villain of the story in retrospect. She was the milind one.
Yeah.
And an interesting story about the Principal Discordia or the Lord Omar Kayam.
The guy who wrote it.
Carrie, interesting enough, has his own chaos, which is he was brought in on charges of assassinating JFK. And so a lot of people thought that, you know, so he has this whole thing where he was maybe brainwashed into thinking or like a man Cherian style candidate that like, because you know, Oswald was kind of thrown to the wolves.
But at the same time, Carry Thornley wrote a book before the Principal Discordia that talked about this defector who was upset with the United States, and that was actually Oswald himself.
So they actually knew each other, Oswald and Carry they.
Were believes they were roommates at one point that Discordia. There was Greg Hill, who renamed himself not Eclipse Younger, and Carry Thornley, who renamed himself Lord O Markaiam Ravenhurst. And Greg Hill was like an IBM programmer and was sort of this very chill, quiet guy. Carry Thornley was very countercultural, and yeah, wrote a whole book about you know, like you were saying, kind of talking about his old his old buddy Lee Harvey Oswald. He ended up under
a lot of scrutiny because of that. I don't know that he thought that decision through very well.
Well, it's interesting how he became the very chaos that Carry Thornton is, the very chaos that he was talking about.
It's very meta and if you got this many layered nature of what's going on in the conspiratorial realms of the sixties with the jfk assassination and then all of a sudden, the same guy coincidentally creates the princip a Discordia, and this this very thing that was disrupting the sixties counterculture, which some think wasn't even counterculture, that actually was an inorganic creation of the CIA's MK.
Ultra program right.
And you know it's funny that you would mention that because in an interview one time, somebody asked carry Thornley if he thought RAS was real, because, you know, like I was saying earlier, the idea of this religion was supposed to be a joke. It was supposed to be parady, was supposed to be taken seriously. And so somebody asked Thornley, you know, is RIS real? And his response was, if I knew this was all going to come true, I
would have picked Venus very much. They did not mean to create something, but by not intending to do so, they ended up, you know, creating this religion that that ended up being very real for a lot of people.
I actually have a couple of questions about Discordianism, a thumber. Who would you say is I know you addressed some of them, but who would you say are important Discordians for people to be aware of? Because I know it's a kind of a controversial label, one that people have cast dispersions against me sometimes simply because of some of my work on Tracy Twyman and you know, association with
some leftown path people. So I just want to hear like, who do you think is interesting Discordians that people should know about? And do you have any connections with a greater network?
So the Discordians I think people should probably know about are as we were talking before we went on Robert Anton Wilson, who outside of the Principia Discordia, his works were very influential to Discordianism and he built on some ideas that became kind of core to Discordianism. The Discordians that people don't know are Discordians. And this is going to be a very gen X kind of thing. But have you ever heard of a band called the KLF
or They were sometimes known as the Nine Wards. They had hits in the nineties, Three Am Eternal, They had one song where Tandy Wnette. They were kind of a dance band, but Tandy Winnette was the lead singer on one of their songs. If you've ever gone to a basketball game and you hear the doctor Who.
Song, the Doctor Who?
That was the KLF as the Time Awards. But they were a Discordian band and they worked a lot of Discordian concepts into their lyrics and they were huge in Britain. They were they had a few hits in the US, but they were huge overseas, and their fame kind of came to an end because one day they announced that they were going to burn a million pounds basically, you know, a million pounds being just British currency. They were going
to burn a million dollars worth of it. And so they went out to like a boat house and they piled up stacks of British pound notes into a million and set it on fire, and there were news crews there and they burned a million pounds and everybody sort of stood there awkwardly, and then the news crewise just turned off their cameras and left, and it was very I think it was very meaningful for them, or they felt like they were doing something very meaningful, and afterwards
they were like, crap, we just destroyed a bunch of money. It kind of realized that there wasn't really point to it after all. Those are the names that I think in terms of like Discordianism quietly influencing pop culture, those
are the names I think people should know. There are other authors out there like Adam Golightly or go Rightly and Bretton Clutterbuck who have done a lot of research into the history of Discordianism and who are who are publishing books that have a lot of information that just people just don't normally.
Have access to.
So anyone who's interested in Discordianism should definitely look up those authors. And then there is a website called Principia Discordia dot com which has the Principia Online free to read with forums where a lot of just random discordian concepts get tossed around to the forums as well.
Thank you so much, appreciate that. That was a great answer.
Thank you.
You want to ask this some of big five dollars for it.
So do you know the relationship between Discoridianism and intuitionism mathematics?
I do not, actually.
Interesting, I don't. This isn't a correct answer, obviously, but there is a answer, and that answer would be maybe some So when principal Discordia or and Discordanism, they have
the law of fives right. And then there's also the idea of twenty three Skidoo, which is also then put into the Book of Lies a whole chapter called twenty three Skidoo, which is basically, get out, get out, get out as fast as possible, you know what I mean, and so you can and so, and throughout the Illuminatus trilogy there was the two equals two plus three equals five.
There's the two to the two equals three degrees as you walk up the Kabbalist try of life, which is a you know, the degree structure of the Hermetic order of the Golden Dawn. And so what they do is they play. And then in the in the Taoist Ian Yong's symbol, they actually principal Discordia took that as their symbol. But instead of the two circles one black, one white, it's one is the apple and one is the pentagon, which is five. Then so it's order and chaos or
discord thank you, thank you, and yeah. And so it's like maybe that could be related mathematically to whatever they're talking about.
It certainly could be, and I will say hopefully this ties in that a lot of like just as the Internet was about to become a seeing, a lot of computer programmers were both cast magicians and discordias. In England when cast magic was sort of building steam in the seventies, it was heavily influenced by ceremonial magic when it kind of got important to the States. It got heavily influenced
by Discordianism. So all these kind of early computer programmers were heavily influenced by this scordion and cast magic as they were constructing the Internet.
Also, you have William Burrow's twenty three theory that he has with the ship Captains and all the later got kind of picked up within Robert Anton Wilson and the Illuminatus kind of trilogy.
Yeah, within Discordianism, as was mentioned, there is the law of fives that everything somehow equals five, and through that the number twenty three became sacred because people is three is five. But the yeah, the twenty three enigma is
is a crazy, crazy thing to dive into. Yeah, in terms of the number of bizarre things that have happened on the twenty third of a month, or that there's actually a movie called I think it might just be called twenty three, but it's it's just absolutely fascinating when we when you go down that rabbit hole, you'll find
some crazy, crazy stuff. Oh yeah, I think the re and why the number five was picked to be sacred in Discordionism was again just sort of arbitrary to be funny, and you know, just it's a number that can't really be evenly divided into or whatever, so they it was
picked arbitrarily. But in Greek mythology, especially in the work of Hesiod, the fifth day of the month was always considered inauspicious because that was the day that Air escaped birth to her son Horcas, and so, without intending to, greg Hill and Cary Thornley inadvertently referenced classical Greek mythology when they picked that number as sacred heras well.
And also with the five, the number, you know, you have that pint alpha, you have the drooven foot, which is the druide used to wear the star on their sandals. You have this this idea of the five to the ten, turning the man on his head and tapping horn. So there's a lot of symbolical elements within the five itself that relate to us as human beings.
Especially in the first edition of the Principi of Discordia, there was a little kind of infographic of an upright pentagram that was labeled good, and then there was an inverted pentagram next to it that was labeled bad, and the pentagram turned in a ninety degree eagle that was labeled aristesque. So is the idea being that within Discordianism there isn't really good or bad existence.
We're going in a different direction totally.
And that's kind of with any god or goddess that you look at in the ancient world. There's always that, you know, the life giver and.
The storm bringer as far as.
The dichotomy of the.
Two exactly exactly.
And that was one thing about Discordianism that I think really appealed to me early on was that, you know, within colastal mythology and within all world mythology, you know, we do see the good and the bad of the gods. We see we see the creative forces, we see the destructive forces. And Harris was always just sort of this
kind of quasi villainous character. So within Accordianism, she has given that creative side and she yeah, where she has lifted up and seen as as more fun loving and happy, go lucky versus just this kind of dour little character from great mythology.
Right.
And well, it's interesting because I came across the principal Discordia before the Internet really even happened, and I didn't know it had anything to do with Robert Anton Wilson until later and kind of just tie in all that together and it's yeah, it's just been an interesting journey going down the whole chaos road.
You know.
Robert Anton Wilson really developed the idea of the word schnord, which in the parcipit of Discordia as just sort of a random, throwaway, nonsense word, but then he built a whole concept around it, where a is some thing put in tech in print media specifically that makes you uncomfor You can't people, everyone in the world is conditioned not to be able to see the flwords. But they were you put into like serious news articles and left out
of advertisements. So if you're reading a newspaper, you wouldn't want you'd get uncomfortable if you tried to read what was actually happening in the world, and instead you would be drawn to the pretty pictures in the advertisements.
Right.
And so as characters go through their initiations and the Illuminatus trilogy, there's the whole concept of I can see the flords where one day they open up the bar and they see the word snord everywhere, and they are deconditioning. They are getting over those blocks that have been put to keep them under control, right.
And well, and I don't know, you get into Robert Anton Wilson in regard to him talking about his relationship, his internal relationship with the ideas of the age of mystic Sufi's and kind of when you go down that Sufi road, you have this idea that nothing is either you know, right or wrong, that everything that it gets into kind of the cop the ideas of like cosmic justice and kind of some of these things that are outside of the scope of what the human understanding of.
You know, the dichotomy, dualism of right and wrong is.
Exactly exactly that's so many, at least according to Discordanism. So many of those binary things are artificial constructions right there.
They are. They are man made.
Arbitrary concepts, and like order and disorder are man made concepts that are a fractional reflection of creation and destruction. But nothing really exists on a binary. Everything is a bimodality, right Like you know, like if we think of of gender, a lot of people will say gender as man and woman, but they're you know, there are things that are definitely masculine. There are things that are sort of masculine, things that are kind of feminine but not really, there are things that are.
That cannot be different.
Yeah, it's all kind of a spectrum with with high points on it, and everything in the world really is a lot more like that than just a binary or a binary right and wrong.
Right, everything kind of lays in a gray area.
Yeah, Yeah, which is is I think tough for people to get the brain around at times. Right, a lot more comfortable to think in terms of right and wrong.
But that especially with like online pulkler and social media, we get so caught up in the idea of right and wrong that if somebody says some like, if somebody puts out an idea that is different than the way I would want to do it, instead of going, oh, well that's how they do it, I'm going to do things my way, the gut response is, well, you're telling
me I'm wrong because you're doing differently than me. And if you're right, that means I have to be wrong, and it's like we can we can all kind of be right.
There's a thousand ways to do everything exactly.
Done one.
Yeah, fascinating enough, Also, is that the Discordians are using the yin and the young symbol, which are two things that then, you know, in the Daoist culture you have or in Daoism you have Wu, which is the all nothingness, the primordial ooz or chaos that separates into in and yong and from one from nothing to you know, to to the many. And so it's fascinating this how that kind of works to explode into the myriad of many things as then we move ourselves back up towards the
all primordial chaos organizational skill. Uh, it's just a fascinating thing to think about as well when you move into the un and the young, which isn't right or wrong obviously, but it has this more young you know, it's two full yin you know, to nothingness. And so these are the things when they spin, right, that's the dynamism of the tyching practice as they are working with the spiral as that when you're doing it, you're creating the all everything, the nuance within the world, so to speak.
Absolutely, the primordial chaos of Daoism is actually personified within the percincity of discordia because in Daoism that primordial force is called hung men or Hung Moan, and that name translates to h It's like basically means either primordial miss vast obscurity, or big goose dummy. And in Taoist philosophy, Hung Meng is sort of this character who is very much a trickster, and he's this primordial chaos, but he just sort of pops up every once in a while
to shake things up. And in the Principia he is listed as one of the apostles of Rais and he sort of represents Daoism in Eastern thought and personifies the contributions that those philosophies bring into Discordianism.
I have somebody asking here double entendres a form of chaos magic.
They certainly could be.
That one of the double and triples.
Yeah, all magicians are word cells, and all magic is words. That is the truth. That is from all the times that like we have spent it doing the show, Like all the people I've interviewed on my show, every single magician left hand path, right hand path, institutional, non institutional in general, they do have a writing practice in a way, and so you must you must admit, like look at Austin Osman spare like maybe the you know, primordial we'll
call him primordial Discordian. It's it's poems, it's illustrations, it's mimetic before mimetics was a thing. And so you must admit that the technology for a lot of chaos is the words, right, I mean, but I just want to say that it's It's absolutely true. The magician is the words well of.
I think to find out if something is an expression of cast magic, the best way to find out is to try it out. And chast magic is very much learned by doing so. If there is if somebody has an idea of using double entendres and magical practice, do it, see what happens. Like chast magic is all about the f around and find out which you know, it's so
many occult disciplines there. You know, there's the idea of of you know, guidelines and warnings and and you know, uh, don't do X because X, you know Y and Z will happen and you will the pendulum will swing back upon you. And in cast magic, it's like, well, I'm going to do it and see what happens. And if it doesn't work the way I want it to, well try something else. You know, belief very much is a tool.
And if if I'm going into a magical experiment, I'm not going to go into it believing that if I do this wrong, something bad is going to happen to me. That's that doesn't do me any good. That's a belief I can set aside for a different paradigm and focus on I want.
To get results.
I'm going into this as objectively as possible to see what happens and what can I do to make it work better next time?
If you can too, I mean, I know we uh touched on it, be full of on the practical I mean, I guess, I guess I would say, all it's kind of like hands on with chaos magic, he practical side.
What would be some practical technique? What would be techniques behind chaos magic?
Or I think there really are And I'd say this after just going off on nothing as a binary, there are two really good places to start within chaos magic and those are those are notice in paradigm.
Shifting night I was going to ask you about.
The paradigm is just basically what can be described as getting into a tan state. It's the mental state necessary to work magic. There are a lot of different ways to do it. There there's excitatory methods where you you know, dance around a whole bunch until you're kind of tranced out and then you can make magic. There are inhibitory you know, meditation, quiet meditation, trying to you know, center yourself and be calm and still and get into that state road Hypnosis is a form of nosising is a
form of nosis. When you know, like if you've ever back in school, if you were ever writing a paper and daydreaming and then you look down and you're just like doodling on the page, that's a gnostic state. So that's just something to keep in mind as we're trying to practice within a charismatic Chasmatic paradigm is getting into that kind of flow state. Paradigm shifting is basically the ability to change belief.
It will the There's a there's.
A couple of sayings within chasm magic of belief as a tool, a phrase that pops up a lot, which specifically because of the illumin Host trilogy, nothing is true, everything is permitted, or as it says in the Principiate Discordia, everything is true. Even false things are true. So we get to kind of decide what we believe, and we can believe whatever we need to do to accomplish the
work at hand. It I think that sort of trips people up sometimes because they think in terms of like, well, okay, but I'm gonna so I'm gonna worship Greek gods, but then I'm gonna worship Norse gods. But can I worship a Greek and Norse god together? That's not really paradigm shifting. That's just sort of an eclectic approached paganism, you know,
a paradigm shift would be okay. I normally tend to think in sort of pantheistic terms, but for the purposes of this working, I'm going to not believe in any gods. I'm going to approach this as an atheist or i approach this as a henotheist, and I'm going to say that Eris is my primary goddess and she is the one who is partant to me, and I'm not going to worry about other gods, whether they exist or not. It's it's those isms set of the paradigm, like how
we how we see spirituality as a whole. It doesn't exist yet, Things that haven't been believed, you know, whether it's our values or our perception of the divine, those things kind of shift on their own organically. Paradigm shifting is doing it intentionally, right. The best example that I that I have on hand for for paradigm shifting is there. And this is really because I often get asked, what's
the difference between eclectic witchcraft and chaos witchcraft? And in eclectic witchcraft, we are assembling a practice around our beliefs, like we have an idea of what witchcraft is and maybe what God's we want to venerate, and we're going to figure out how to do that. Within chaos witchcraft,
we are assembling beliefs around our practice. And the best example I can say I've been able to take up so far is there is an old Irish folk charm that comes from a book called Mystic Charm Irish Charms, Mystic Cures and Superstitions by Lady Jane Wilde.
Oscar Wilde's mom.
She was a folkworist, so she had collected the spell on how to become invisible, and it was you get the heart of a raven and you cut it open and you put three black beans in it, and then you bury the heart, and then the bean the bean tree grows, and then you take one of the beans and place it under your mouth and you like recite an invocation to Satan and then you can become visible.
And so let's if I'm going to go through it right, like, let's say I've decided to try the spell and I just happened to have a raven heart lying around, because of course I do. And you have to have a black handled knife as well. The color black is very important. It all ties in because as well, so blackbird, black knives, black being. I happen to have a raven heart, I've got some black beings. I'm down to do this. And
then I get to the invocation to Satan. If I'm coming at it from an eclective point of view, I'm going to go, well, Satan really is a part of my pagan beliefs. So I'm going to start thinking about what gods or goddesses might relate to invisibility and what God and goddesses might relate to vegetation, because this is something growing and is there a connection there? Well, HETEs is sort of about invisibility, and he had that magic helmet that made him invisible and his wife is Persephony
and choose the goddess of vegetation. So I can rewrite the invocation to Hades and Persephony and it'll probably work because like I'm doing everything else correctly, so this it would just be easier to worship Satan for five seconds. Like I'm gonna do my little location to Satan. I'm gonna pop the Bible in my mouth. If I turn invisible, noted. If I don't turn invisible, then maybe I'll try it. With's taking gods and seeing I love it, and that's
that's for me. That's the big difference. That's assembling the belief around the practice.
Yeah, all right, did any of you guys have any more Did any of you guys have any more questions on maybe on the paradigm shift.
I want to jump over.
Decisions, so in case anybody have something on that or any other questions.
Do you think that you need an actual paradigm to be able to.
Make it a shift?
H That's a good question, and I uh, I think the term paradigm is fairly broad. I think just actually I'm gonna go back to the principia because within the Principitouscordia culture is defined as a group of people who are looking through the world, looking at the world through a particular grid. Each culture has their own grid. And if we don't necessarily have a belief system to shift into or out of, we can still shift our perception.
We can still look at things the way someone else might look at it, and that would still count as a shift.
Well. And Robert d'antowen Wilson, he specifically talks about this in regard to the mind tunnels.
Yeah, reality tunnels, reality tunnels.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so and so we're trying to always talk about the concrete reality, the objective truth, but in doing so, our language is adding different levels of abstractions. And he has it as a pyramidal structure going all the way up to the general abstraction of whatever truth or freedom or these things are.
But it's reports of reports, and through.
Our changing of paradigm, we change our understanding of the actual concrete truth in and of itself, which is there. Because without that we can't have or talk about anything that's right.
That's very platonic in nat very.
Patonic, and I'm a platonist, So there's that I randomly have an anecdote that ties into what you're saying about the about perception we've been talking about Robert ATW.
Wilson and the Illuminatus Trilogy.
It was turned into a nine hour stage play directed by and productions of it happened and it was directed by a guy named Ken Campbell, and one night during a performance backstage, he and his wife conceived the daughter, and uh, her name, her name was Daisy, Daisy Aris Campbell was her full name. They named her after Aarics And she grew up to be sort of a free
spirit and a performer and a libertine. And one day some her family got together and said, hey, Daisy, uh, we're gonna we need to go file a police report, and uh, you're the only You're the only reliable.
Witness we have. Will you come with us?
And she said okay, sure, and they get in the car and it turns out they were like, surprise, we're not going to go give a statement. We're having you institutionalized. We just needed to get you in more. And she threw a fit and she was like, I am not I am not insane. I do not need to be institutionalized. All I need right now is a copy of Soap
Opera Digest. And she threw this huge fit about Soap Opera Digest, so big that they pulled over, and she stormed into a convenience store and bought a copy of Soap Opera Digests and she tore it open and the article she turned to the headline was Daisy Goes Crazy and so the most magazine. And she got back in the car and she said, I'd like to institutional.
Lifestyle please synchronicities.
Yeah, and that is my favorite discordant story at all time.
Yeah, yeah, all right, so, uh sigils?
Yes?
Is that like a big Is that a big part of your chaos magic?
The way it is, the way I do them is differently than a lot of people do them. I think sigils the modern concept of sigils is really comes from often husband Spaar's work filtered through an early cast magician named Gray Sherwin, and has now within modern occult spaces been very crystallized. Like you write out your intent and you cross out the letters and you put the letters into a pattern and you create a sigil. And a lot of people think that is how you make sigels.
That is one way of making sigils. The way I make them, and I talk about this in the book, is almost sort of automatic writing, where I sort of get a story going in my head of what I want to see happen, of the reality that I that I want to perceive, that I want to experience, and then I just sort of without looking at the paper, just let my hand kind of holding the pen do whatever it wants, and when the story comes to a close in my head, then I have my sgul that
I can do whatever I want with. I do think sigils are very efficient.
They are.
They are a good way of.
Kind of getting into that gnostic state, especially in the inhibitory way of you know, whether it's you know, just drawing a doodle or whether it's breaking down letters and rearranging them to create a shape. All those help us get into that gnostic state and then we Yeah, I think I think they are very convenient. I think they're very efficient. But I will I will die on the hill. There is an infinite variety of ways to make ways to make them.
Don't you think that there are better ways than other ways?
Though or not?
I think there are.
I think the right way to make sigils is always going to be individual because the way I make sigils may not, you know, may not work for somebody else. A friend of mine made amazing sigils using the kind of standard write the letters out that worked so well for her that never worked quite as well for me. The doodling method gets meet great results. I really I think that the when it comes to just witchcraft or magic in general, I don't think there's ever a right
or wrong. I do think there's inefficient. And if we with sigils, if we get it in our heads that there's only this very specific way to do it and we have to do it that way, whether it works for us or not, that's inefficient.
You know.
Finding a better way for us individually is always going to work better.
Yeah.
And I think as an artist, when you're creating a creation process of manufacturing whatever your perceived reality is, and if you break it down to a formulae or make it formulaic, it kind of loses spontity in the natural energy of creativity. So I think that that variety of you know, possibility, leaves kind of the embers to grow over the arder.
I don't think.
I don't think having a framework is ever a bad idea of likes something that I know works for me. So I'm gonna stick within that framework because i know I get results. But I'm never going to be afraid to experiment within that framework, right right, you know, And that's how our practices can get very very specialized but very uniquely tailor does where they may not look anything else, but if I'm getting results, I'm not gonna worry about.
That, right And and with money art form the craft, you're essentially learning your pool and then you learn the nuance elements of how to you know, slightly manipulated them to get more exact, you know, servitude out of them.
Oh yes, now there's you have some other things you hit that from that interesting.
Moon water and uh, I mean you got classic practices moonwater, cord coting and anointing.
What does chaos and discording and framing adds to these basics.
So with moonwater specifically, moonwater is something that for some reason like gets under my skin when and I think that the moonwater craze seems to have died down in online spaces, but for a while, like you know, you know, hey, witches, who's making moon water? Tonight and like you're putting water in the jar and the moon controls the tides. Water
is all. We don't have to make the water more moonish, right, Like that used to just make me crazy, so but people were also really stressing out about it, like, you know, did I did I make my moonwater correctly? Moon water incorrectly?
So I wanted to give some ideas of like variations of just putting water on the windowsill at night and getting into the idea of willow water and you know, of soaking water, willow clicks and water, because the main ingredient, which is an old help tonic and is you know, farmers will pour willow water into the roots of plants and the bill is a tree that's sort of ruled by the moon. But it's the ingredients in willow that make it use make it useful as like a topical anesthetic.
Are the same are process to make aspirin?
Yes?
So I was like, if you really want like useful moon water, My whole thing was like, get an aspirin. It's a little little, tiny moon And if you've got a tiny little pan, you can carve a tiny little sigil on your aspirin and dissolve that water. You have just made willow water, which is a traditional lunar water. I wanted people to think outside the box in that respect and not get so caught up in the idea of right and wrong over something so simple as putting water in.
A jar on the window.
And interestingly, as far as the whole willow thing within the towel mood, they talk about not planting a willow tree next to a well because the roots were going into the well and by drinking that water on a regular basis, it'll actually pull the energy.
Out of you.
That makes sense absolutely, that that numbing quality of the willow. But so that's like with the with the moon water. That was kind of my take on it, of like, we don't have to get stressed out about this, and we can do it, and we can find other efficient
ways to do it. With cord cutting people that that's another thing where people get really caught up in the cord cutting spells and the elaborate tying the you know, the piece of thread to the two candles, and you like candles, and then you watch the cord burn and it's a terrible fire hazard.
But it's also not.
Ancient traditional witchcraft, Like the way people are doing it now comes from the Chilling Adventures of Sabrina season three. I think where does this spell? And it got well pop culture has always had an, you know, an impact on the occulture, and so after that episode came out, suddenly all these people were casting cord cutting spells and with in a couple of years. People did not realize
where it had come from. And we're stressing out about it because the way people were doing it with the two candles and the thread is more divinatory than anything else, Like, how are these two people connected, which one is having more influence over the other? Is this a healthy relationship? Is this the you know? Did I just burn my house down? Like? There's a lot of questions to be answered with that. So my take on cord cutting was, well, you know, light the candle, if you want to do
the chords, that's great. Cut the cord yourself, get scissors. You imposed your will on the situation. Don't leave it up to chance, you know. And then I followed it up with and don't post the results on the internet because of your cord nobody. You don't need to get on Instagram to tell everybody you're doing it because you have just reinforced the cords, you know. I was like, I like, randomly, when I was writing that particular second, I kind of like went off on this whole thing
about block your exes. Like I was, just like, you've got if you're going to do the spell to cut people out, you have to cut them out too. You have to do the work in the real world to bolster you know, cutting the string between your candles.
When you do said spells or rituals or anything in that magical realm, say, for instance, even though to me it sounds kind of ridiculous, but like you want to find a new girlfriend that's going to resonate with you, or a new boyfriend or a new partner or whatever, or whatever it is that you know that people do if you want to find love. Right, And what he states is, yes, do your ritual, do your magic, do your thing, but realize that you're not actually doing it
to manifest a person out there in the world. What you're doing it is to vibrate your nervous system to change you alchemically, so you can magnetize and rise to the frequency of the individual that's already out there in
the world. So you can then it like rearranges the discord, the chaos, if the of the universe into a chance happenstance that all of a sudden you can become the person that you're trying to attract, right, And I think that's kind of similar to something that you were stating at the very end, which I think is very important and also grounds the whole work and understanding that you're not actually manipulating like other people, which I think is something that is awful to do. You want to make
sure you're only ever manipulating your own nervous system. And this goes back to Robert Anton Wilson talking about where
his one of his people was Timothy Leary. And even though Timothy Leary in the conspiracy world they want to throw a lot of shade on him, if they were to read his work like the Eight Circuits of Consciousness, the bio saying, you know, what they would understand is that he had two laws and the first one was you know, one of them was don't change without their knowing anybody else's consciousness, which I think is really important, especially because he was doing work on LSD for Harvard
at that time. You know what I mean, and so it's like, I think it's it's important talk when it comes to chaos magic in and of itself, because it gets a little chaotic.
I'm actually going to follow you up round in, but not correct you this time, because I actually I actually agree with you. I think that it is I think the idea of a causality in magic is actually really important, and I think that people should actually consider. I know that you said to thump her about like imposing your well for cord cutting, and I'm not against that, but I also think, like how much do you want to
implicate yourself? You know, Like we have an rass figure in I'm a Vagoriana Buddhist, so for me, we have an Airas figure in dharma. Her name is Eka Jatti. I've spoken about her many times on the show and on my show, and you know she's she's the goddess of mamos, which is the Tibetan word for chaos. So they're very similar. I'm not saying they're exactly the same,
but they have they have an overlap, we'll say. And so I like to look at if for my own practices, I try and be a causal Now I understand, like I am a sorcerer also, so I get that it's never going to be one hundred percent perfect, and I recognize and accept that. But I try, and I think that it is about view like that's how we would say in like a Buddhist sorcery way, It's about like how you view it. Do you cultivate bodichiita? Do you like do all these preliminary things that would be a
way to make like your sorcery a causal. So I try. I do think what Brandon is saying is important because I think that people should not want to implicate their karma so deeply in an whether you agree with my framing, not you Thumber, but just anyone listening broadly if they agree with my a and of the daughter framework or not, or they still think we're in Caliyuga, which the contrast say we're not. So I don't think we are. So I just sim I'm saying that do you want to
be stuck in the degraded a on? I personally don't. I want to move forward with the aon. That's just me. So I think that this idea of like a cause out and looking to lighten your karmic load. Maybe you could say is actually important to think about. Just think about, just as an idea.
Got nice, nice gin, I can be.
Good to you. I'm not just leftime path and evil.
I know you can.
I know, and I see within your eyes that I've never truly saw.
I do like the idea of a causality, and I do think one thing that tripped a lot of modern practitioners is kind of fear of consequence. And you know, if I, if I do something, you know, people are and it's it's where people get caught up in either a lot well today people get caught up in like bashing the idea of the threefold law, you know, and
that's wicked and that's silly. And then somebody people mention a love spell and they be like, oh no, if you cast a love spell, that will rebound back upon you somewhere between two and four times. Right Like, they're still caught up in that idea of the content sequence. But all actions have consequence. Consequence is not necessarily a bad thing, right Like if I if I write a glowing five star review for a friend's book and that
results in the book selling better, that's a good consequence. Right, Like it's like I still still my actions. It's just the consequence worked out well for everyone. Consequences don't have to be negative. And we also and we don't have to always be worried about, you know, how much damage are we doing. We can also just kind of think in terms of, you know, how can I how can I make things work out for not only myself but
for the people around me? You know, how can I have these things where I'm causing the least amount of collateral collateral damage while still getting the results I want?
Yeah, And I think it's something to think about.
Also how important especially in the magical world, but not even that, just everyday life. There are there is a real dichotomy between harm and dissonance, and we hear it in music and it is two opposite polls of That's
why sacred geometry works. That's why the music of the Spheares was talking about with the Pythagorian cults and how we could create music itself, you kind of these things, you know, and so it's like that would be something to think about when we're trying to understand while it's you know, it's the least possible consequence, but at the same time, it's like, can we also try to make it so consequence is harmonious with things, because when it's dissonant,
that's when karma, we could say, is produced because we're kind of going against the flow. Or in Crolly's words of the AA, it's that every man and every woman is a star. And so when he's talking about that, what that means is that we are all in the universe as stars moving perfectly with the harmony of the spheres. And it's when my interpretation is that when we move through the world in a dissonance state, that's when all of a sudden stars collide. And we could use moral
ambiguous terms, which I think is really important. But you know, because this is like, well that just happens in the universe, Well, it's like, well, then look, can we also understand that that has its own levels of chaotic dissonant reflections through the cause effect making machine of the universe. These things I ponder continuously.
What managed to I guess you over time, results of revelations.
You know, both are important because I still like getting results, But revelation and understanding has become the older I get, the more important that gets you know I think fifteen. No, if you had ask me that, I would say, I don't have to understand something for it to work, and I would be more caught up in the in the
work itself. Today, what I find so fascinating, especially about the cult, is like the more is learning more about the history and the connections and and you know where ideas came from, and how new ideas connect to old ideas, and the uh one of the biggest I think I mentioned this in the book towards the end, but as an example, several years ago, I was introduced to listenmancy listmantic divination, divination with stones, and it was sort of
pitched to me as like, this is like ancient witchcraft. This is you know, the the ancient seers of Greece and Rome would cast the pebbles and see the future.
And I was I.
Started looking into it, and I started experimenting with it, and it worked really well for me, and the more I Dug and Doug and Doug, cause I was like, but I want to find the source of this, Like what documents do we have that ancient Greeks and Romans
were throwing were casting the pebbles? And I was able to trace the history of modern litzmancy all the way back to nineteen seventy eight and a book on Witchcraft for Tomorrow by Duren Valiante where she has a section on listomancy and the practice of listmancy continued, but nobody remembered to write down where they found it. So today when you pick up a book on lismancy, it is the origin of the Listhmantic divination are shrouded in history,
and no they're not. They're shrouded in nineteen seventy eight. But on the one hand, I get results from them, so it doesn't matter that they come from the seventies instead of you know, antiquity. But I also find it so fascinating that they came from nineteen seventy eight and that this one witch in England figured this out on our own and created a system that could be replicated, And that history is more interesting to me whether than if it had been well, this is how an ancient
Greek was doing, like the learning problems of it. Of wow, this which in the seventies just invented this. That's amazing. That revelation is cooler to be than anything else.
I want to respond to that really quick, because I find that really interesting also that you said from nineteen seventy eight, simply because this is true for a lot of modern magic. It does seem to be true for
a lot of modern magic. It seems to be a lot of recreation, like not just not just not just from the you know, the New Age, like nineteen se I'm not putting it down because some of that stuff does work, and I think that you're very very prescient that you say that that you can get results from it, because you can because it is based on older ideas,
but we don't even know what those ideas are. Which is sometimes my issue with some of the institutional formations of magic is that they will pretend I call it the Great Wewiz King's Larp. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to find anyone, but I thought it is what I call it. You know, they they tend to project themselves
into the antiquity. We don't know what the fuck they were practicing, just to speak really plainly, and so it's really difficult to then be like, Okay, this is what we're going to do in twenty twenty six, just like these quote unquote ancient Wei was kinges, Well, we can't do that, so we have to actually use what is pragmatic, what actually worked, and if it comes from a during val Ante book, so be it. What's the big deal?
And it's just a matter of each individual finding these necessary tools to be able to draw out, you know, and make these things workable.
Yeah, I'm gonna say I like what everything Buddy's saying, because there is something definitely beautiful about the idea that everything stems from the human nervous system body mind, sysogy, you know. So it's like, of course we're going to be able to tap into these things if we have the right passion, madness and different things like that. But what's really important I think also why it's like, not
all things are magic. I believe in magic and all things, but not all things are magic, and so it seems to be a contradiction, but it's not. Because if you want to hammer and nail, it's the best thing to use as a hammer. You can use your shoe. It just might take longer. And so there's something really interesting with that. It's like there are structoral systems that can be used by individual practitioners, and we may not know
exactly how that came through time. But what I'm coming to understand more is that if we can use the term philosophy, right, the philosophia this thing where you can learn how to critically think, how to analyze, and how to break things down in a structoral that love of wisdom, break it down in a way, you know, then we can Actually that's how magic works, right, is that you have a science and art of causing change with your will.
Even though it's like a massively hated definition, especially by those who are who have stemmed them through the different institutions and organizations like the Golden Dawn, these things like that. They want to go away from things like that. But it's like, if we can find the science of it, and you know, and I don't mean this functional mechanistic science, but that philosophia, that love of wisdom, that ability to
put yourself into a state of ecstasy. That's why another Crowley book or thing that he wrote was The The Enthusiastic Ecstasy, right this and that's you know done, yeah exactly, that's done through either your divine dance or the harmony of the spheres for the Apollo. That's how you can break it into the Apollonian, the Dionesian. But there is something that you can do to gain the best results, and it's not everything. So it's like there's a it's a fine line if that, if any of that makes sense.
That was one thing that for me was very refreshing about both discordyanisment chaos magic is that neither system makes any bones about being ancient. And you know, the pioneers of chaos magic, we're taking structural systems and reworking them to try to make them more efficient. Discordianism took this one myth from Greek mythology and built something entirely new out of it, and they were very open about that.
And you know, throughout the history of occultism, I think it really started picking up steam with the rights of theosophy. But even pre theosophy, you know, the guy in the late seventeen hundreds who started using tarot cards for divination didn't say, hey, guys, look what I can do.
He said, oh, this comes to us from ancient Egypt.
And it was like, no, it was.
An Anglican priest in seventeen ninety nine, the Key of Almen, it was. It was the fifteen hundreds, but not much further back than that, but even back then it was this idea, but this is ancient, which means it's real and valid, and well it doesn't right.
I was gonna say the Bohemian Taro that is by Pappus, it claims to be the most ancient book in the world, and you know, so, yeah, you consist, but this is something you consistently need to get it like the templars you know later on claiming lineage or the resecrutions even claiming lineage, and it just adds. It's this power multiplier.
It's a way to excite the nervous system in a way that you're participating with something that echoes back into the dawn of you know, human thinking in the mind and and who we are as a species.
Yeah, and theosophy really introduced that utopian idea that before, you know, before all this modern stuff was going on human and that's what it's. Modern cultures, without realizing that are still thinking in terms of ancient utopia, when if we transported them back to that time very quickly, they'd be like, this is not a utopia, this is not.
Right.
But we do have that sort of idealism about accultism a lot of times, and that needs me in order to be valid.
You know.
One of the big one thing I hear a lot about in social media when people are complaining about Wika it's new, but rich Craft is old, and I'm like, well, all your witch coming from the same sources that Wika did. You're just you're, yeah, you're you're you're promoting this ancient witch cult idea that you are also saying has been discredited, and yet you are still wanting us to believe it.
Yeah, yeah, And that's just That's exactly what Francis Dame Yeats was wrote about in her Hermitica Traditions with Geodorno Bruno is that there's this great argument that thoth Hermes the thrice Great was this ancient, ancient you know, and her Meticism is this ancient, ancient, ancient thing from thousand two thousand DC, when really it actually was the syncretic integration of Platonism, Neoplatonism, Stoicism, and their philosophies had actually
reached a point where they couldn't They were like, we don't know what else to do, and then all of a sudden they integrate all these ritual and the different things, and all of a sudden they come up with her Meticism when you know, even though you know, integrating the Gnostic texts as well and the Emerald tablets that were you know, before them, but it's a fastcame. It's just a sac same thing of like, oh, Hermes the Thrice, you know, that whole thing.
Yeah, And interestingly with Hermes, you know, from t Hoodie to Thaw to Hermes the Mercury, it's always been kind of related to the idea of it's the conscious brain of society as a whole, and all of these scientific works are kind of the the process of humanity kind of bringing forth these ideas as the mind of the divine.
Yeah, yeah, nice, and I will I do want the audience to know there is such thing as the Tholth cult, there is such thing as the Hermes cult. There was and there are the theogia, right, the divine workings of ancient Egyptian and the orphic mysteries and the Pythagorene mysteries that stem through and you can see it written in
Plato's works. And so it's not that those things weren't happening, it's that the Hermetic tradition is in thousands of years old, but it's a syncretized understanding of those things, similar to what you're talking about, Thumper, with witchcraft and wiganism. It is that amalgamation of things, and now we have a new label for it. So for the modern thinker to think, then it's.
Ancient, yeah, absolutely, and modern witchcraft it's it's I'm far too old to be on TikTok, but they let me on anyway. But that's one thing that I put a lot of effort into pointing out the origins of current witchcraft trends and ideas, because a lot of what people present as traditional witchcraft is an amalgamation of WICCA, chaos
magic and who do. Because in the late two thousands there was this big online thing where the movie The Skeleton Key came out in two thousand and six, a bunch of pagans Google who Do, found an online correspondence course, appropriated a whole bunch of it. Again, did not write down their sources. So ten years later everybody was like, this is ancient traditional witchcraft, and I'm like, that's a sour jar from nineteen thirty nine. That is not ancient
traditional witchcraft. That is African American folk magic, right. White people set it down right, but people don't. People don't know the history, and there's sort of this collective amnesia around it at times where painting and evolving, which is great, but it would help to know where it comes from, so we're not always so we're not always claiming that it is ten thousand years old.
I want to respond to that as like someone who has well, like Nick and I have done shows on like different afrosyncritic traditions. Okayeah, we did a long form series on that, and I'm regretting his name now de Lawrence Company. Laurence Company published from Chicago, So I'm quite familiar with the who doo sort of methodology and like
the history. I think that's a really great point you brought up how there was an infusion especially in that like the Catherine Ironwood like all her you know, all her books, and her book is really good, like her book, her her book. I'm not saying it's like better than any her book in twenty twenty six, but I was saying that I would personally still I mean, I still own it and I still think it's one of my best her books. So I'm just saying, like you want,
like some real real shit. It's it's good. And I also think that I think it was even before. I think it was like the Hermann Slater like the kind of like the oil making that kind of like New York chaos, magic, leftime path, like Oto crowd. I think that they were also like very much informed by like the kind of like card readers of the Bronx and the Botanica culture of like I guess it's Brooklyn, but like Harlem and like all all of those kinds of things.
Like I think that magic and I've said this so many times, so I apologize, But you know, magic works better together because gnosis and knowledge worked better together because only in synthesis can you actually understand the contour of the truth. So like what actually works, That's what I think.
I don't know.
Oh, hold up, hold, I was second thought. I had you read it again.
About the background place. No, I absolutely agree with you, and I think that what especially when you mentioned Herman Slater, right, he was the owner of what was originally called the Warlock Shop and then eventually became Magical Child. This this kind of iconic a cult shop in New York and he was putting out he was you know, he had a publishing arm and was putting out books on how to make magical oils that was very influenced by.
A lot of.
By the folk magic of marginalized groups who were also shopping at Magical Child. And the same thing with the store in my area that the first time I went there, I was expecting kind of a new age bookstore, and I walked into what appeared to be a Yarborea and I was like, this feels a little weird and appropriate of why are we, you know, keeping all the neat high end new Age astrology books next to all the
Africa Arabean religious products. And I just mentioned something in passing to the owner and she was like, oh, well, we have all these customers coming in who practice these religions and they don't want to have to drive all the way across town to the Mojo store on the other side of downtown, so they asked me to start
carrying it. So you know that, I think something very similar happened in New York, where Slater was carrying products and manufacturing products for a specific customer base, which in itself is kind of syncretic. What happened with Lucky Mojo was that when the pagan community discovered this online who Do resource, there was an idea at the time that anything magical was pagan, that if that Christians could not practice magic, that you couldn't be Christian and believe in magic.
So these Pagans were sort of flooding into these online spaces that were designed for who Do and for African American root work, and we're asking things like, well, how do you reconcile this Christianity with your pagan beliefs? And the roots were like, well, we're not pagan. And the Pagans got this idea of like we must save the magic from the Christians, right, And they also didn't really want to follow rules, so they didn't want to be you know, we're witches. Nobody tells us what to do.
So they were you know, like signing up for the Lucky Mojor course, getting the textbook and plagiarizing it, or getting the textbook, bailing from the course and setting up a website announcing themselves as a spiritual worker. And I was like, huh, funny, last week you were a high priestess Evanana and now you're a spiritual worker. Interesting, but
that's where you know. Today we hear a lot about cultural appropriation and the Pagans are very, you know, strong fielding about cultural appropriation, but they don't really know what it is and they choose not to remember actual appropriation happening in real time. I may have gone a little there ideo for that, I have strong feelings about it.
I think this is an interesting question. Sorry guys, but do you think that what you're raising number is an interesting question? Like what is cultural appropriation as it relates to magic? Like for me personally, I'm mixed. I've grown everybody knows I have grown up. I grew up in Asia and Canada and the US, all three throughout my
entire life, and I'm by Raylf. So for me, I don't personally believe in cultural appropriation as long as people are approaching the system with just a general respect, as you should with all magical things, and you're not taking them outside of the context of which they are understood.
So I'm totally okay with people using different Obviously, that's very chaos magic like using very like, you know, utilizing the different methods like a honey jar is a great wealth draw it's a great wealth tool that it shouldn't just be like, oh, yeah, you can't use Hyjohn because you're not from this thing. No, I mean I think that you can. I just think that you should actually know the story, like understand like Rayer Rabbit and the you know, the whole mythology is behind it, both Native
and African American. I think that that's a really important like the lore building. People forget about that, and I think that's also what you're referring to when you're talking about like the cultural amnesia. People have forgotten the lore. But the lore is at least well, we'll say one tenth, we'll say one magic number, one tenth of like all kind of like and like the way that you build
your own paradigm. If you want to use a really chaos magic kind of framework, you need the lore, like you want to use forty K like the slaw Niche and instead of eras and like all those like little dudes like LDR's and all that. That's fine, but you still have to know the lore and you have to understand how like the classes and the systems and the little you know, machine guns work properly, because it won't really make sense. It's not a it has to have
an internal coherent logic. So I just I really, but I think it's important to have the discussion because it does come up a lot, like what is cultural appropriation in magic? And like for me, I just think if someone wants to pray to Green Tara, that's fine, that's great. I highly think I think that's amazing, like because I think it actually will start to transform their minds, even
if they don't think it will. It's just because everything is so online, Like there's so much much information, Like you can look up so much who do root work stuff? You can work, look up you can go resor Neil thir Hurston. I mean her book's really good if you are just wanting to learn, like who do candle magic? And like basic saint magic from like the Bahamas or from Jamaica and how they were actually working. It's very basic. I don't mean basic in like a a like a
bad way. I mean basic is in like the their color correspondences are very different than the ones that people normally use. Their saint correspondences are are different. But it's just it's simple. It's like very it's householder, it's everyone can actually access the technologies needed to do it. So I think that there's a great system for especially for American magicians since they're here on the land that is like America, Like why not tap into that like greater
knowledge of root work. That's just my opinion, but you can definitely number. You can feel free to disagree or anything you want to say.
I agree, especially when you said context because when it
comes to cultural corporation, context is key. The way I define cultural corporation is, first of all, it's not really something one person does by themselves, unless you're going but for the most part, it is it is something that is cultural, like that is a group that is a group is doing, so I define it as cultural corporation occurs when a dominant group adopts the traditions or fashions, or music or magical practices of a marginalized group, takes
those things out of context and then either prevents the marginalized group from having access to those things, condemns the marginalized group for continuing to practice those things, or pretends that the marginalized or that those things did not originate within the marginalized group. So it's it's a complete It has to do with the removing the context when in regards to paganism and who do you know, folk magic in general and witchcraft and these things, you know, always
have fuzzy edges. Things are going to drift in from folk matt from one one regional folk magic practice to him other. Like four thieves vinegar pops up in folk magic across the US, and it's an old Renaissance Italian health tonic that's used in magic in the US today. But the it's like something like a sour jar is a really good idea or what people talk about return to send your spells right now. Those are things that
originated within the multiple practices of marginalized groups. So when somebody says, you know, this road opener spell is ancient traditional witchcraft, no it's not. That's not where it can It did not come from Europe, you know, the which is the old European witches were not casting their road opener spells and their return to sender spells. Those are things that came out of the faulk magic of marginalized groups.
But we are pretending that it's ancient traditional witchcraft that is appropriative the fact that all these Pagans swooped in and started incorporating who do into their practices, but taking it out of the context of African American fault magic, disregarding the lore behind it, and just rebranding it as witchcraft is appropriative. And it wasn't just one person doing it.
It was one.
Community descending it to another community and taking everything to make that's one person. Like if I were to go pick up a book on Hudu and flip through it and be like, oh, hey, a freezer spyle, I want to give that a shot. That's not appropriative, right, That's
just me trying something in my kitchen. But if I were to make a TikTok video and say today we're going to talk about the ancient traditional European witchcraft of freezer spells, I've taken the freezer spell out of its context and I'm claiming ownership of it, and I'm disregarding where it came from.
You know.
And the big thing with with the kids today, with their with their blue hair and their pronouns, I'm two genics for my own good is you know, they think of wick as cultural appropriation. They don't know why wickeed is cultural appropriation. They have just decided that Wicket is the source of the cultural appropriation because that way, especially since so many occult practitioners and online spaces are of European descent, it makes it's a way of absolving themselves
of anything wickeds appropriate. I'm not wicked, so I'm not capable of doing that, and by doing that, they are ignoring their own appropriated behaviors and inclinations, and they're not realizing that it's not a wicked problem. It is a white people problem. Again with the rants, I sometimes about things too well, it's.
The dice.
Online.
I don't go to those, and I do have a pagan background Wiccan background, so I'm kind of surprised that maybe it's the newer what they call the baby witches go into these spaces because you mentioned earlier that you are initiated into I want to say Alexandrian or Gardenerian Gardenerian. I'm sorry I always mix the two up. I do apologize, but within WICCA and Paganism, you do have that initia that you know, you go through initiations too, and you
have to keep your ols. So I'm trying to figure out why do they think it's okay because a lot of those Caribbean religions are also initiatory and they also have their secrets to just dive in there, and they're not as nice as the Wicked community. I'm just going to say it that way and just grab the stuff and say it's ours. And there's a lot of habits. I guess I haven't been around to see because I've been doing my own work that.
This whole discussion.
I'm like, Oh, as a ceremonial magician, I used to try these techniques, so they were familiar to me. So I'm like, where's a chaos part? But if that's what they're calling chaos magic.
Within online spaces, especially online and cult spaces, terms get trendy, ideas get trendy, and people have a tendency of adopting those terms without understanding where they come from. So the idea of chaos magic got popular for a while and people were like, oh, I I got it, but they didn't have the context, so they just thought chaos meant some sloppy and disciplined and crazy and like fly by
the seat of your pants. In the late nineties. By the late nineties, WICKA was starting to get very trendy. Most modern Pagans was in the US sort of like you know this, this witchcraft came over from England to New York, the term Wicca started coming into use. The modern pagan community kind of grew out of the Wicked community and developed at something. Wicca itself tended to evolve where there's Gardnerian and Alexandrian, but non initiatory. Wicked became
in saying eclectic. Wicca became a thing, and by the nineties this idea of wick it was very trendy. The New Age industry kind of jumped on it and started calling a kind of a whole lot of stuff that wasn't really wick and wicked, you know, or just sort of kind of just processing wicca along with an amalgamation of a whole bunch of different ideas, usually Eastern ideas and Hinduism, and sort of using Wicca as like the type face on the packaging for back they were saying it.
So younger occultists today who don't know the history of Wicked and don't realize there was a whole that there were generations of Wickans before the New Age Wicca of the early two thousands see that, and they think that's all Wicke is. And they pick up a book on Wicca and I'm paraphrasing a lot of things there, but they pick up a book on Wicca, they open it up, they see the mention of white sage and they go, this is cultural appropriation. And because white white sage is
a closed practice, white sage is a plant. The religious use of white white stage is part of a closed community. But there's this idea that well, that this is appropriation,
which is just appropriation. But because they don't know the history of their practices, they don't realize that a lot of their own practices are rooted in Wicca, and that you know that the modern pagan movement is the holidays and the Wheel of the Year and the ritual practices and the four Elements and the ritual knife and blessed b all of that came from Wicca, and they don't
realize it. So they are still practicing Wicked today while condemning Wicca for being something that they refused to identify as it's a it's a it's a strange space. I was not online for about ten years. I was doing other stuff and I left online space with when everybody was like, we're wicked. We came back on and everybody was condemning Wika, and I was like.
Miss something that I had noticed, Like I guess kind of with the chaos magic first off, a lot of the I'm just gonna keep it real, a lot of the younger crowd just seemed to have like kind of like just kind.
Of screwed that up.
And then but also and I.
And I think because it just seemed to resonate one with the other, I also noticed a lot of people then gravitating towards like, well, I'm going to be into like Thelma because I could take do what that will fuck that off just as much as I'm fucking off the idea of chaos magic. And it all basically comes down to I'm gonna do whatever the fuck I want when I want, you know what I'm saying. And it's just like I did notice even like a lot of
that even happening with the misunderstanding of both. It's like somehow it's amazing how they I just noticed a lot of them kind of come together or a lot of chaos magicians would have like athleenic edge to them.
I just sawt in seeing this was like a thing. You know, at one point.
There are trends within occult spaces, just like there are anywhere else, and it, you know, there is the chaos. The trend of chast witchcraft or chass magic tends to be evening out a little bit. I think the reason why there was such a sudden interest in it again has to do with pop culture because in by the mid eighties in England, people were writing about the death of chaos magic, that this is all coming to an end,
like the paradigm is over. And then suddenly in the mid mid to light two thousands people have this renewed interest and it has to do with Marvel Comics because the character of the Scarlet Witch, who's this you know, kind of cor avenger. Her power set was redefined and was and somebody at Marvel picked up the term chaos magic. So the term chast magic started getting into everybody's head again. And then the Scarlet which was incorporated into the cinematic universe.
There was the One Division limited seriesies and there's this idea which is a chaos magic. And suddenly in online spaces you see all these kids going, I'm a.
Chast witch and they don't know about history of cast magic.
They don't you know, they don't understand the idea of of principle or discipline or all these things that are kind of inherent to cast magic. They just know the term and it resonates with them, but they don't realize how it got into their heads in the first place.
And it's not about that it came.
From pop culture, but it's like it should be acknowledged.
I think also you have the uh hundred million culture in William Burrow's kind of being a big promoter of chaos magic with this cut up method. And yeah, he writes about in the was it the Reds series? He wrote there at the end, you know.
Yeah that And I mean I think I feel like I talk about it all the time, but Grant Morrison and The Invisibles was the he just like exploded chaos magic all over everyone's face, if you know what I'm saying. And it's like that is one of the main reasons he even using certain ecstatic disciplines to make sure his comic book series even was able to continue or very you know, it's very chaos magic. I find it fascinating to think that chaos magic itself seems to be quite appropriating,
you know what I mean. Like it's basically having the ability to take from all these places, put it together and then be all like, I don't like structure, and I don't like any of these things, and yet I'm gonna take all these structoral practices and put it in a frickin boiling pod and call it magic. And I'm not hating, but I'm just saying, it's a fascinating thing.
With our culture this day.
It's a really good example of what he called He coined the term hyper syndrome, which is sigil that moves through time.
So a story, a.
Play, a movie, you know, any kind of visual art like, it's a sigil that is is continually moving forward and changing things as it moves through time. And with The Invisible specifically, he really tied that storyline to himself and works that he was trying to do, and as the one character in specific in particular within The Invisibles start, he started writing the character having health problems, and he developed all those health problems.
Yes, that's why he so Graham Morrison dressed up with all leather bald Head designed his character to be like that and all of a sudden, He's like, I want my character to fall in love with a bunch of hot redheads.
And so in his life came a bunch of hot redheads.
And I think it's really fascinating to see the dangers of these things because he started not ever having to have a real relationship because he didn't understand the underpinnings of how magic works. It's like, you can, unless you're descriptive, You're just gonna get a bunch of hot red heads who are going to run all over your heart and
then fall away eventually. And then, Yeah, he hurt himself in the comic, and then he hurt himself there, thus saying I will never hurt myself again in the comic because I don't want to be in the hospital for the last week Mark.
I was going to say, Philip K.
Dick.
He also wrote himself into his work and into balance. That's in exactly how he was going to die. Yeah, and so you know, when you're using these mechanisms, these vehicles of the creative force, you really have to be aware of the intensity and the power that they possess.
Yeah, this magician named our culture Aiden Walker, who in one of his books, and they cannot remember that changing fate or tempting fate, something about fate.
Weaving fate is the name of the book.
And he presents a hypersential idea with journal where he incorporates some folk matchic ideas, and there's like you get your books that you're going to write in and you go to the Crossroads at midnight and some of the Devil and.
It's the whole thing.
But then you treat that book like your diary basically, and every day you come home and you write about your day, but you write about your day as if you were living the life that you actually won. So like if I really wanted to be a flight attendant and come home from my retail management job and be like, man, today was really rough at the airline, but this worked out well and I got to meet all these great
people on the flight. And this flight was delayed, but we ended up getting to go to this other destination. And so you're, basically he calls it telling true lies. You're you're writing the life you want as if it was already happening, which is I think where one thing about that differentiates chaos magic is there is you know there is the fuck around, but there is definitely the find out and we tend to learn on lessons that way.
So we look at the hypercentials of Grant Morrison and Philip K. Dick and the effects that those hyperstentials had on their health and well being, and then we look at Aiden Walker's Walker's hypercentual, which is, I've learned lessons from what they went through, and so we're not going to do it that way. We're going to do it in a way that benefits us and doesn't injo ourselves or ruin our life lives.
Uh, Thumper, was there a Is there anything that you would like to add about your mom?
Anybody?
You know?
I I've actually had a blast night and I feel like.
That.
I don't know if I have anything else I want to add.
I will I say.
The only thing that I would say about the book itself is that, to quote Phil hein the cast edition, Phil high magic should be fun and so if and when people get a hold of the chaos Apple approach it as a tool to have fun with, you know, like like the spells in the book, the experiments in the book. I would like people to take an enjoyment of magical practice out of it, So I hope that's what people get out of it.
I love it. I had a lot of fun for real. Yeah, and I guess, I guess we'll wrap it up. I honestly can't think of anything else bredon. Please let everybody know where they can fund your stuff.
Ohy, great, thank you, Thank you Thumper. Great to meet you everyone, Golden Chaos Apple, make sure it doesn't create chaos. Figure it out. Read the book. He's probably got it in there. And how are you gonna walk through the chaos with a light step and a smile on your face? And always Nick, thank you for having me on. I love these conversations. This is how we meet new people, and we are trying to find our way through this
ocean of chaos. Head on over to megas in the media because you should already be subscribed.
That's all I got.
Just go over to Instagram, go over to x make sure you follow every one of these people on this panel. We're trying to find myth, meaning and magic in this strange, chaotic world. Again, thank you Thumper, and I love everybody on this panel.
Thank you guys.
Yeah, thank you for joining us.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you for doing the man, appreciate it anytime.
Hell yeah, please let everybody know what's up with you. What's up with all of your all the stuff that you would do that you do well, your endeavors. You muted who's that jin Oh?
Sorry, boss, I was I didn't hear who you said. I thought it was Judith. I was like, in my mind, I was like, okay, I apologize. That's so my bad. So thank you, Brandon. That was a really awesome both intro and outro little bars you dropped. So thank you. You're making me kind of look like a side as like the side piece to the show.
Now.
I was never want to ask me to do the intro again anyway. Brand and are actually friends. Just like, just keep that in mind everybody listening. We really are friends. So thank you so much, Thumper. It was honestly a huge like, it was like really cool to do this. I re released. Unfortunately last year almost at this time last year, one of the boys who I did the five part the first series on Tracy Twyman, not on her biography but on the metaphysics of her work. We
did a five part series. Unfortunately, one of the boys passed away around this time last year, so I re released his episode, gave it some new art, new Keno, new hyper sigil, and I just dropped it on IG and X so people. I encourage people to check it out.
It's my third episode I ever recorded on my show and I love Zach, so shout out Zach RP my brother, and people can check me out on Twitter at Wukanrieborn w uk oh and g Reborn or on at Threshold Saints, which is both for IG and Twitter and of course substack. And you can check out all of our Gray Lodge work at the True Gray Lodge dot com t r ve gray Lodge dot com because it's plus ultra all the way up. And yeah, thank you guys so much.
I appreciate it, Brandon, of course, Robbie, Judith and mister ninety three Nick and of course Thumper awesome show rock on guys.
Yeah, that was a blessed and thank you very much for making it.
Jen, I really appreciate it.
And Robbie Marx what is all. Please let everybody know where they can find your great stuff.
It was great hanging out with everybody of the old faces and the new faces. Good to meet you.
Thumper.
As far as my work, I'm currently working on illustrations from my Memrod book, which I got about eight or nine of them complete. And then if you want to check out my various works, you can go to my link tree which is link tree r M r X and you can find my metamind cast there which I just did an episode on learning to Lucid Dream. I just released an episode on the creation of the human in the demon Haunted World, and then the one this week was the bloodline of the first Divine Couple leading
into the Secrets of Enoch. So go over there and check out my link tree and all the things that I have to offer. And again, Nick, I appreciate it as always.
Thanks.
I always appreciate you here, Robbie, thank you very much. And last but not least, Judith please let him aright.
Know, thank you for having me. Brandon. You're gonna have to teach me how to do an intro like you do.
It is awesome.
It's been a pleasure again, Jen every time.
Robbie.
This is the second time I've been with you, so it's a pleasure. Thumper, thank you so much. I am actually going to get your book because from what Nick has said so far. I like your format the way you present it, and I don't think you realize you also add a little element because I got to read the little intro a little bit of discernment in there, uh to warm to advise people that use that. So
I'm looking forward to that and anyone else. You could find me on YouTube and on x as the Loon and I do more self awareness, more mindfulness and working on yourself before you start taking work like this.
Thank you, Thank you very much, Judith. I really appreciate you making it here.
And h thump please if you want to let everybody know what's up, let them know where you can find anything usage want to promote.
And the mook.
Okay, well, first of all, thank you guys so much for having me I had last. I tend not to know how periods work, so I will just steamroll through a conversation. That's great.
I really enjoyed it here.
You can find me at someforge dot com or pretty much anywhere at fivefold law, what work fivefold Law, and I am currently working on the first draft of my next book, which will be sort of a spiritual sequel to The casts Apple. While getting more into world mythology and pop culture. One thing I did forget to say about the casts Apple, just the people know what they're getting into. Some of the pages are intentionally upside down.
Oh yeah, well I've caught that. My only one star review on Amazon came from somebody who got thought he got a misprint.
So I want people know that that was done.
But yeah, that's uh that five full law everywhere thumperforge dot com and uh, I will wonder about here anytime.
You want me.
Yeah, I definitely had him last. And I noticed that too, with the upside down with like I mean, I don't know. For me, I just knew that was tom purpose.
I just didn't yeah, especially because it was also it's also like I think it's the Discordian parts.
Right, Yeah, yeah, that was Discordian dance breaks and just a little stop and reorient and think about things in a different way. And it was actually somebody on the design team at the publisher came up with the idea and I wasn't entirely sold on it. So I went to my most like like grumpy, curmudgeonly friend and I said, Hey, if some of the pages in the book were upside down, what would you think, And he said, I think that would mean that I should stop and reorient and change
the way I'm looking at it. I was like, we's old. So yeah, everybody, for the most part, everybody seems to get it. But I always sort of offer that disclis, so people aren't you.
And I said before, the book to me reads differently. It's not going to be a to me. It's in your everyday magic book, you know. I think it's a little bit more personal.
I don't know. I liked it so far from what I read. I highly suggest that if you're into chaos magic.
I just I feel like if I tell you to check this book out and snack it and be like every other book you read. So, uh, check it out if you're into that stuff and thump very amazing.
Again.
I was very happy for being on. If you coming on, we'll definitely get you on the future if you have one.
We had.
I had a blast, so I would love to get you back on again.
And uh, thank you everybody that showed up, and thank you everybody in the chat. There's a lot of people in chat, and that's what's up, and that's where we do it live and until the next one.
Everybody be well late yeah,