You see, something's going to happen. What what's going to happen?
What I to.
Help it.
To?
The saturnine point of aridity. And the real test isn't whether you practice when it feels magical, it's whether you keep going when it feels dry. These are all quotes from the book, which some of which I'll keep in, some of which I will rewrite, rework and turn into new and brilliant paragraphs. So yeah, I essentially argue that devotion matters more than spiritual thrills. Probably won't be a shocker to anyone here. And another quote is I say
the work becomes true. Work becomes true invoking into it the spirit only when the goal of pleasure is replaced by the petiss of devotion. So one of my main messages is that pleasure is not the measure of truth in spiritual work, of course, and that's just an example of my approach and the I think important differentiation between subjective and object realities in this particular interpretation of the Tree of Evil.
Thank you man. Is there any questions before I went forward? So I wanted to kind of ask you some of this stuff. I think we kind of like asked this that is, I think we kind of answered it anyway, but it kind of makes sense with the question I have afterwards. Do you interpret clippothic forces as actual entities, archetypal structures, psychological realities, some combination of these, or how do you look at them?
Yeah, I mean I've answered that kind of but not explicitly, I suppose. I mean, again, the cop out, though it feels, does feel a bit of a cop out to say people can deal with them however they want, but it depends on what you're working with them for and how that determines how you're working with them, right, if you're if you're seeing them as things to be purified and transmuted, like David Heimsmith does, so that you can experience God
more fully. Though let's put a big, you know, double quotes on the word experience there, especially if you know
David Heinsmith's work at all. So it does it, you know, do I see are they they are archetypal in the sense that we can conceive of them as archetypes the real beings, in the sense that we do often as human beings, and in the in the in the field of phenomena experience them phenomenologically right, Like, they might not be metaphysically ontologically real, but we certainly have to deal with them in terms of ordinal phenomenology, and in the
layers of our experience of reality, they become real. So again, I don't know if I would put them in the same category as I would dimonase which we see as real entities or spirits. I don't know if I would. You can certainly turn them into entities through many different magical means, or just building them up in your mind to the point at which you know you become possessed by that edity. If you focus on the clipo of death and destruction, that could be several of them, So
take your pick. And of course there's tons more in the Book of Horns that we don't even know about in the non Hebrew speaking world yet because no one's translating it. That might change after this podcast, eh, some one might be like, what the fuck? How do we miss this? It's like, well, because you don't pay attention, So that's okay. I mean, doctors, I just talked about the Book of Horns, tons and no one's done anything about it. When I told him, I paid someone to translated,
he just laughed. He was like, ah, I was like, fuck, you just drink your absence. The shut up. It's like it would be interesting for us to him, it wouldn't be of any interest because you know he's an atheist. So but it's just a fight. It would just be a wild, crazy demon text by a you know, by a martyred rabbi. So yeah, we we can. We can deal with these things as nties, But I don't think
it's healthy too reify them as such. What benefit is there too that you know if you reify like so, Kenneth Grant's point of view is like, we experience the path demons and we connect the sphere demons by indulging in the path demons. What does that mean? That means living out those demonic forces. So if you reify a clipo of death and destruction, that means you're destroying things. That means you're killing things, and then you are connected
with that clipo, you are possessed. Buy that clipo you want to work with thawmil great, you will divide yourself against yourself, which you know it happens whenever in psychology we have any experience of object identification at all, which is like Jen was saying earlier, why it's so nuts how many people are hyper focused on their identity these days, because what we know from psychology, one of the very few ideas that has not been overturned since Freud and
Jung because most of their ideas about how the mind and sub conscious and shadow work, we know that's all nonsense now. But one of the main things psychologists seem to have continued to keep as true to this day is object identification. You identify with something, it fractures your psyche into that which you are, and that's which you identify with. And your identification can even be with a self identity, and that causes a fracture and leads to
schizoid psychosis if you keep going with it. And so you know, users beware, or as I say on the cover of the book, warning demons. You know, like, however, you want to see that focusing on this stuff comes at risk, just like focusing on anything disgusting and sick comes at risk. And you'll know that if you've explored the Internet, it's darker corners for any amount of time. How do you sleep that night?
Well, the next question I have I guess this wouldrobably also depend on I guess which way you're looking at it or using it? What role do names, correspondences, seals, and ritual forms play in structuring contact with these forces or things? How are you looking at it?
Oh, I'm so glad you asked that question. I'm so glad you asked that question because that is the big one, that is, in many ways one of the big questions. Well, Kenneth Grant did a lot of that, right. The gamatria is the perfect example, like trying to understand the nature of the path demons in terms of their gamatria and guess what that was one of the things I did focus on from his taking his lead, because gematria is
a useful tool. Anyone who thinks that it's some secret code to show how things really are is completely miss the point of it. It's a spiritual exercise, just like anything is that helps you understand the map you're working with better, but not necessarily the terrain. Maybe it will help you gain insights or phenomenal glimpses of how these things play out in your life or reality. But yeah,
the gamatria is a great example of that. Looking at the names looking at the numbers, seeing what they connect with, and seeing if an inspiration comes from your noose, from your higher self. That gives you some insight into how this clipote works and how it can be better transmuted or dealt with when it manifests in your life, because a lot of these things do clipboat manifest physically in our lives through the bad things that we experience or or heaven forbid, do in the world world, and that
is very real. Let's see, let's see if I can give an example. Yeah, keep going, I'll just see if I have a good example from my notes.
Yeah, I want to read something from the chat and I think it's funny. Actually I don't know exactly the context I try to understanding here, but anyways, I'm just gonna pull it up and I think it's funny the person said or wrote it. Again, No, they're not one hundred percent of context, but they wrote no risk with Jesus. And I was thinking, how, like again the concept that we were talking about right of the symbols being emptied,
how that happens so often with zooteric things. So again the alter example things where you're gonna have the symbol that people. Everyone kind of has their own idea of the thing. So at the end of the day, it's not really like it's not really anything because everyone has
their different idea. For example, Jesus is one of those things, right, and if you ask people to kind of speak about it, they will kind of gravitate towards some kind of thing or the same with like Buddha or whatever, like the again, the exoteric concepts or even sometimes again right, everyone who kind of have their own very different thing if they just superficiously study about it. So again don't know their
context what they said. But there is indeed a lot of risk if you just want to get something packaged to you. You know, that's the actually the greatest risk, couthy because again you're just getting something pre made for you, and that comes with a lot of preconceptions. Right. So for example, if we are talking about Jesus, a lot of people will have the image of him suffering, you know,
with the crown and in blood and whatever. And then and imagine you have that in your imagination all the time, what exactly is gonna you know, calls to you again, no shade in Jesus, you can use that simple tiffer at whoever you want. Just if you get the prepackaged version, exactly are you gonna work with that? You know, the always being in sacrifice, always being this and this one.
So again, just thought it was very funny the comment there again, don't know the complex that didnt com what that came into my life matters.
And you know, it's interesting because that's such a feature of modern Christian theology, so process theology at work, because that would only be viewable, visible, conceivable in a world in which we have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. But early Christians had no belief in that, right, that's a modern idea quote unquote modern he goes back to Protestantism. But this idea that you have a direct personal relationship
with Christ isn't found in original Christianity. So that really mitigates the risk of having oh I have my Jesus, you have your Jesus. We all have our own Jesuses. They didn't have that view originally in Christianity. It was all about the communal relationship with Christ. You find come to Christ through your community. And so it's quite a modern problem that one of fragmenting interpretations individually in ways that then don't connect us to anyone except to our
own mystical experience. And what good is that for human life if we're all just you know, trapped in our own sollipsism. I have an example I found here in the text of my book, which I will elucidate, which is what to the previous point of yours? So sigils symbols gematria. How does all that come into play with the cleipbout? How is that useful? Well, here's a really simple example. So sloth is especially related as a vice
to sagittarius through the geomantic symbol acquisitio. So here's geomancy as a tool within this context, and you find it within the path or tunnel of set excuse me of the sigil of that demon of Saturn tantifaxat and Saint John of the Cross describes sloth as an opposite of the quality to the quality of Saturn. So that is, the initiate will dislike most spiritual pursuits because they are
void of sweetness and incompatible with sensual pleasure. But the sigil acquisitsio right there shows you how you could work with that. Well, you can make a sigil or a seal or a talisman, or any number of rituals using Acquisitsio and the sigils derived from Aquisitsio or even the archangel of Sagittarius to then mitigate your own struggles with sloth and sloth as it's defined in this context, not necessarily the pop cultural one, but maybe you can use it that way too. I'm sure you can. So these
things do guide us. Even Kenneth Grant's work does guide us to ritual and spiritual practices to help us mitigate against our own corruption or sin or whatever you want to call it. Great magic gives us lots of.
Tools, yeah, oh for sure, magical magical tools, magical weapons. Did anybody else have anything that they wanted to ask? Where you keep going or anything? All right, how do you personally like hold that tension between metaphysical and psychological readings?
Well, shout out to philosophical minds in the chat. I'm not sure what do you mean by a tension between psychological and metaphysical because metaphysical I see as in the philosophical senses, referring to the actual nature of reality, So
we don't really experience anything metaphysical. Ever, we just experience our own, you know, interpreted understanding of reality through through the perception field little David him Smith way of phrasing that again, but through the phenomena we experience, and that has very little as we know, to do with actual base reality, which is metaphysics.
Well, I'll just say this, I think the next question was really good, and I think but I think that I agree with what you're saying, Freight. I think that there's a tension between what is even the word psychology even mean in like this context of like Cabbala and like understanding the tree and understanding Kleipas like you and
I think would say consciousness. But I think Nick is drawing from more of the popular understanding of like psychology, as in like there is like we like I mentioned, like there's the edgy Goth version of the Kleepas that are like you must be depressed, like there is there are literally left time path texts on the Klipa that say like it's a it's a path of depression, it's a path of self sacrifice, like where you're like cutting and burning yourself. I'm not trying to be like edge
Lord and saying this. I'm saying that they're they literally will kind of put that in as part of the you know, hermeneutic to understand the dark side of the tree. And I'm not saying that it's like totally wrong because people have like a I'm not saying that that's right. I'm saying that people run the range of emotions, so obviously those emotions can become kleepas, but even good emotions
can become kleepas. And I love that you brought up the idea of perception because I think hesse that is very Hessetic, right, Like that is we are looking at the ocean and it's the reflection that we see off of it, and we see who we really are, and then we make a choice do we go to Binna or do we to go back down to Hoade? Well,
that's a choice, right. I just think I think that what Nick's really asking is like how do we resolve this like mind body dialectical problem in understand how we maybe even it's just a language issue, Maybe it's just like how do we articulate it, like can should we divorce? Divorce? Like magical experiences or separatic experiences, even if it's based in our perception. Should we take that away from like the psychological like transmutation or is it all part of
it or is it like distinguishable? I don't know.
Yeah, so sorry, story about that, Nick. Normally, I would usually in these spaces interpret the word metaphysical in the way that that you actually meant it. Because of the nature of our conversation today in terms of theology and philosophy, I just defaulted to the hard philosophical definition of the term to be for clarity what I thought. But I feel I made a mistake there. I should have. Yeah, you mentate in terms of spearmint metaphysical in terms of
spiritual consciousness, the spiritual non physical reality. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so that's a different question. Yeah, that's a that's that is a different question.
Answered jin. I saw the context and sense the way you're answering it anyway, But.
Yeah, no, but in terms of how does so how does it let me think of it again, how does how does this play out when we contrast the spiritual metaphysical reality of these things versus the psychological. That's a good question, you know, I'm not even sure that I have a fully formed answer to that. I definitely obviously there's the I.
Think there was actually a tough caveats.
That the psychological is. It's a great question, it's a great yeah. I mean the usual caveats, like the spiritual metaphysical view of the human incorporates necessarily the psycho logical. That's that's there. But yeah, how's it. I think metaphysically as in the way you meant it, in the way you said it. The danger is you do end up creating these things into more than they should be. I
just think that is the problem. You end up creating little little uh little coco diamon aise or little what's the what's the word for a little spirit you create? What's that word? I'm brain farting on it. You all
the homunculous. Yeah, as well, you're making a little homunculi out of these klepot And it's like, again, if your path is to to uh be a bedrodder and and and be depressed so that you can gain true spiritual enlightenment through the path of evil, Yeah, I know, I'm I know, I'm sort of couching that, but that's okay.
Uh No, that was good because I was leading into something else.
If you're gonna do that, then I would recommend you you go the solemonic route and deal with those them as spirits and demons in any is as you would
with any other demon or spirit. I don't really work those systems of magic much, but if you were to go do that, then do it, and do it in the way that the grimoires recommend, invoking from the highest and subjugating these these forces within your life so they do not control you, so that you do not become a plaything of forces you cannot control, which is what you know, chaos does. It's what dark forces do. They
imbalance us. And the way to purify and transmuteklepode is or the or there is through the the dcs would call, you know, the red and white drops and through the heart. And that's a beautiful thing because it makes you a better person, a more full person, and certainly more prepared to enthrone your noose, your your holy diamond, on your your higher soul and gain that higher consciousness so that you can be initiated into that tunic of fire and become like a star god after death.
Thank you. That kind of lead it up to, like one other question I just wanted to ask you, do you think if somebody was to maybe get into this this practice of this stuff not really understanding it fully or kind of maybe not being authentic with it, do you think that could end up kind of maybe feeding your ego and actually making things worse.
I think it almost always does. I mean I just I just one foolish night, and you know, treated these things in a slightly haphazard or as I saw it at the time, boldly experimental way, and it almost killed me. So, you know, that was my experience. Maybe others are more able to navigate that kind of of experience. I doubt it. I don't think that that is, you know, a healthy path.
I mean, it's the result of us not getting very in depth training on the Klepoath in the Golden Dawn, which led to me writing the paper I led and led to my workshops being as popular as they were, and why that's why the whole internet started talking about me when I was such a young magician back in the late nineties. It's why I was known before I even knew I was known. And you know, people called me many things on the Alt Magic forums and all that stuff. None of them actually knew me cause I
didn't participate in the online forums. I was busy finishing high school at the time, So yeah.
I do want to work.
My apologies just had like from my own experience, again, I never really got specific with this stuff, but like at one point in my life, there was a few people that I knew were and the idea of the clip out from them of how I looked at it then due to their influence, and how I even see it now is completely different. And I just remember that the people that there was only a few people I knew personally that were all of a sudden I can't
even remember the book. Some book came out and everybody seemed to be like pretty much buying the same book and getting it, and their lives weren't going too good, seemed to get shittier and shittier. So I thought it was like a little weird. Like I'm just wondering if that is like a side effect of like not actually really fully knowing what you're getting into it.
Oh yeah, I mean even recently, I watched a fellow magician and friend in Vancouver's life just completely spiral into utter self destruction. You know, any swar that working with Darker Forces was part of his you know, Thulemic path, and you know, next thing, you know, he's threatening everyone and trying to blackmail people and extort them and you know, just complete you know, mental breakdown. And I thought this was one of my closest homies throughout the last five years.
And it's like, yeah, well you know you you play with dark forces, and you know, shit happens, especially for people I think who look down before they look up.
Yeah yeah, And to be completely honest, people don't have to even be initiated, uh, to go that route. Like again, we can use all the mystical names and so on, but people can just do shit and you can see that clearly, like they digging their their life down because they're doing you know, well whatever lying or corrupting or whatever whatever. And you see that it never pays out literally, like the thing always goes downhill at some point. So again, we have.
So many examples, right, like ea quetting all these guys, like so many examples of people from Crowley onward just destroying their lives. I mean Crowley, sure he had some you know, there's good things about Kroley, but I think he could have been a lot happier person if he had believed in some of the tenets of her meticism that he learned in the Golden Dawn, rather than throw most of them out the window to explore darker realms
and more more selfish realms. I think that was his big mistake, and many people since him have followed his lead because he started his own religion and became a prophet of it and not and a lot of people don't handle that well. There's examples, great examples of people who did, like Lon Milo Duquette, Richard Kacinski. You know, there's other lovely people who are part of represent that tradition very well. But there's the other side of it.
And that's why in like traditions like the Hermetic spirituality or as found in Rose Crucian Currents, the Golden Dawn and many other traditions, I mean, we just reject that stuff at the outset out of hand. We even take vows against working it. So there's a reason for that.
I want to offer a defense of the Klipa's but it's not please do. It's not an adversarial position to what Freighter said. I just think, like well dcs would even say, like within the klip as there are there is the primordial space, empty space which can arise wisdom, which can arise you know, the sort of female the shakinas he would call it. I would call it the shok d but he can call David call it whatever
he wants. But yeah, the female principle. Like we talked about this on a different episode, like I think Matt and Judith and obviously Nick was there and we talked about how you know, like in a more contrac way you would understand like the space, even in within the tunnel itself to still be able to contain the truth, like the truth, the primordial truth is still there. But it's a perceptual case. So I don't I don't disagree with people working the night Side Tree at all. I
find Kenny G's work. Shoutout Solar, I find his work. He gets lost in the he gets lost in the tunnels. There's no other way to describe it. He he goes on to describe all the klipas like in in immense detail, but he's kind of getting lost from what they actually are. And what they actually are is there's they're supposed to be experiential knowledge. You're supposed to be sort of performing the act of bringing Hokmah and Dina together even down there.
So if that's the klopathic version, then whatever the copaltic version of that is, and then you're creating death in that space because the way David sees it is the death doesn't exist on the tree. And I also agree with that. I think death is something that you synthesize in your own consciousness. So the so there is a use, but I do see a use in it. But I also see where people get stuck, just like people do get stuck on the suffer, and people do get stuck
and they sink. Oh, angels, Angels are just inherently amazing. They're gonna help me. They're going to manifest like the Lottery. They're gonna you know, they're gonna it's very like, you know, no shade to John Michael Greer, but he he kind of went that route for like a good two decades, and he would be like all like it's all love and light, like it's all like, you can't be stuck on that stuff either. That becomes a kleipa if you
grasp aden enough. In my opinion, So I just want to say that I do see a use in not only studying the klipa, but I think it is a I don't think you should do it first. I think you should just approach the tree, like Mattow says, like very flexibly, try and be as I would say, nondual, Try and be a forge nosis through the middle path.
But the middle path does not mean centrism. It just means that you're non reactive to the polarities, so you can reconcile them inside yourself rather than you know, you don't have to a lot a lot of people love to do the archetypal play, right like they love to go full on. So if like being left hand path means like you wear a leather jacket and you wear like, you know, black jeans and you listen to like death metal, that's what the they'll take on the archetype in order
to embody those characteristics. But I personally think that you should just be like who are you? That's probably the fundamental question, like what is your malcouth? That's what I would ask myself, and then I would traverse the tree accordingly, rather than trying to remake myself every single time I encounter a khlipa or a cephra. I would try and build the path as I go. But that is a very different approach, and I know that some people don't
love that way because it's a little more hopema. It's a little more like what people would describe as droy on or like crazy wisdom is how that word is often translated, although that doesn't really what it means. But yeah, that like even David would use that word to describe, like how I approach a tree. It's very droy on. It's very like wisdom. It's not necessarily rooted so much textually. So I do think there's a use in studying it. I just think that people are doing it as it's
not a remediation of the tree. It's not like you don't go to the dark side because you were raised evangelic, Like you don't. You don't do it to get back at your daddy issues. It doesn't. It actually is gonna make those so much worse approaching the light side tree. That can make some of like what your perception is like, not anyone here, but I'm saying like it can make you very egoic. It can make you very feel like you are virtuous like you are very taad, very like,
Oh I am righteous, like a crusader. That's a very like, that's a good archetype sort of like it's like a little overly geveratic because you're sort of reaching for this. You're you're positioning yourself in a tent in a place of tension because you're severe and you're kind of restrictive. So I do think that both trees present kleep us. I don't think that the the night Side Tree is inherently worse or like evil. I just think that it's
all about how you approach it. And I think if you approach it more flexibly conceptually and you're willing to let it go, that's what it will serve you, because there will be ideas that you encounter that you will agree with and that you will be like, Okay, well, how will this further understand How will this further my understanding of the tree, rather than how will this allow me to do magic? Like I'm again I'm a speculat of cabalist. I'm not. I don't use it for magic, So that's just my pace.
You just you just contemplated in the exact way David Heims Smith thinks people should, so he might call you very cabalistic if we go with his definition. You've said so many great things. I don't know if I recall everything you said, but every response I had as you went along. But there's two main ones that really stand out. First of all, I generally really think your own point there with that, And for a couple of reasons. Firstly, let me say that that's exactly what you were saying
at the start. Why I think the hermineutic found in Saint John of the Cross's spiritual exercises and interpretation is so effective with our understanding of the clippo as a foil as a method of theorgy because he is not ignorant of the fact that what is often seen as good can easily become clipathic. That's invaluable, and my workshop will go into the details of that. But if anyone wants to prepare for my workshop or understand my second edition of the book coming out, go get David Himes
Smith's Darky a Black Ether book. There's still a few copies available, I think, before it's sold out forever. But even better, take his course on transmuting the clip both. It costs a couple bucks, for sure, But it's and it's it's four or five hours, I think, but it's it's brilliant. It's brilliant, and it complements very nicely other methods of working. It's not like, oh, this is a whole new way of understanding it that rejects whatever you're
currently doing. Not at all. It'll it'll help many people with their way of working. Not everyone, but it'll it'll it'll augment nicely to a lot of people's practices. And that's the great thing about David Heimsmith is he he has developed a system of spiritual alchemical kabbola that does fit in very well and complementary to most magicians work, in my opinion. And that leads to the point of the cleapout themselves. Like you were saying, yes, of course
they are. They are there as part of the field of phenomena that we experience, and they are not some rejection of reality or some evil opponent to the to the One good. They are a part of reality. They are cacodaimonse if you like. Right there, everything is slightly dirty outside of the Mona, the One, the Father, the Good,
or whatever you want to see it as. But that's just the words that the you know, Hermetic pagans in Alexandria in the third century, we saw it as and so from their point of view, they would see these clipout if you were just if they were to hear what we were saying, they would say, oh, those are cocodaimonos. Though they're spirits that may exist only in our mind or our psychology, or in the earth, in the air, and they're dirtier than most because they are part of
these processes that are often categorized as evil by human beings. However, you know, the thing the same as the cacodaimon is in the Inochian magic system, which are certain names done in reverse with a few other little things tacked on to make them function. And they yeah, and they are things that generate disease and cancers and illness and evil things in the world. But something has to be the agents of those forces, and that's what they are. And
we understand God better because of them. So it's they're necessary and they're not something to be seen or as to be rejected entirely, for sure, I agree with you entirely.
I also wanted to bring an example, maybe real quick, of how doing something good can become a khlifah. Right, Like, imagine, imagine again, you have kids and you want the best for them, obviously, right you You imagine, Okay, I want the best round kids. So you work a lot, you get a lot of money, and then you think, okay, every time my kid, my kid needs money, I'll just
give them money. Well, if you do this long enough, eventually this love of yours that you want them to succeed can actually nullify them because they know always you know that, and mom can hook me up and I can do whatever the I want. So then you kind of are like creating this kleifa on them that they again, you're basically nullifying them. You're removing their active energy. That's even so again this is coming out of love, but
you're breaking something. So it's very and it's then it's gonna be hard, right Like again, you're you want to make it work. But at the same time, maybe there's you know, a lot of crazy stuff. So that's why it's very interesting to study and practice all of this.
I'm so glad you said that. It actually gives me a chance to make a really good give a really good example of that. So like you were saying that, you know, the spoiling kids can lead to them being non functional. I mean in pop culture they say that's the problem with gen z. They were helicopter parented or or overly protected, and therefore they lost basic social skills and socialization and don't know how to talk to people.
Like that's what we hear in pop culture. And I don't know if that's that's not universally true, but it seems to be an issue. So good things can become bad. Good things can be like the money that a wealth the parent might constantly feed into their kid prevents them from learning how to find value in work and labor
and personal accomplishment. If you rob a human being of the sense of personal accomplishment, well you're actually changing their brain chemistry into something incredibly dysfunctional that will eradicate all kinds of opportunities for contentment in their lives. And one of the quotes in my book is really key, one of the key quotes that addresses that right, which is holiness, is not defined by how little we have sinned, but rather how much sin we have transformed and purified into virtue.
So that spoiling parent creating a klipa out of something intended to be good becomes a challenge that that person then has to work through and transmute back into something good.
How do you transmute being given endless opportunity and protections by a parent, wealthier not and so that you never have to actually struggle, Well, then you have to struggle with the opportunities that you have to struggle with them, wealth and money or riches or protection or favoritism you get as a nepo baby or whatever right that becomes your kleipaw to be purified so that you can get back to what life is actually all about, which is
you know, well, I don't know what life's actually all about, but I have a few ideas Thanksgiving to get back to thanksgiving that is the hermetic view of what life's all about. So you know, they can rob you of your ability to give thanks for existing if they just keep giving you everything you want and always pay rent and you never have to have to struggle to take care of yourself, which is the model by which we learn to take care of and be a show loving kindness and generosity to others.
I said, exactly, And then can you flipped the thing where now they kind of expected there and expected more so eventually though, it's like it becomes kind of a glutony on let's say that the kids or whatever the person which is receiving, so again it becomes the klifa of Hessid, right, because now it's the opposite. They want everything all the time. So it's very interesting. But when you see it in real life being played.
I have an example from my life there was I went to private school. I went to Walder School thirteen years so I was. I was there without paying really they the school allowed a few kids each year that whose parents couldn't afford it, and I was one of them. So I grew up surrounded by really spoiled millionaire kids, hippie millionaires for the most part, but millionaires nonetheless, like in the most rich area of Canada, West Vancouver, North Vancouver,
mainly west. But yeah, there was this one kid named Kyler. I won't say his last name, but his god dad was rich as god, and he had everything he could ever want. And every time I noticed as we got older, and he was younger than me, so I didn't hang out with him a lot when I was younger. But you know, as you age up, you start to hang
out with ages level out into early adulthood. And he would like many of us, would you know, because you don't always have money when you were a kid, or a teenager or a young adult even you know, sometimes we would pay for each other. He would do this thing where he'd offer to pay, and then next time I saw you, he would hand you a letter with an invoice and terms for repayment. This kid had no need of anything in life, but his dad had taught them that the way that works is by basically being
careful and watching your money. But that played out in him in terms of him being very miserly and not having the ability to do something nice for someone else for purely that reason, because for him, money was this entity, this clipa this shell that existed and had been ratified as penny pinching. That's how you get rich. So he
lost the ability to be capable of generosity. Yeah, I remember he had to be an invoice once when he paid for that the you know, the first Star Wars movie when it came out, So we just graduated high school, I'd say at that point. I think it was two thousand when that came out, and I just laughed at
his face. I was like, hey, dude, don't offer to pay for someone and then invoice them, like unless you're loaning them the money, like and in the adult like, let's if you loan someone money versus pay for something, that's two different things. We're all adults here, we all know what that looks like. We all understand how that plays out in social niceties. You're right, they're definitely different things. You don't you don't offer to buy someone dinner and then send them a fucking.
Jeezuz.
It was hilarious though, and I think he had never seen a reaction in his life like mine. I just laughed in his face and threw it away in front of him, and he was he was stunned. He couldn't believe what he was experiencing.
Well that this is quite common among Hassids, like among like a Jewish coubleists, is that they will utilize contractual obligation a hava. Some people would call it like the tefolium chord, like the actual physical chord of the teflin that will use it to bind sepharatic ideas to these kind of contractual obligations. Because a hava can be also
understood as a contractual love, obligatory love. So this is a very common kleipa that I've encountered since I've become a better couplist and like since I started studying like more seriously, is like this exact thing. And I'm not saying it's like just exclusive to them. I don't think it is. It's a very common klipa of hesseid, and it's how hesseid can go very wrong, just like being overly generous is also a klipa of hesseid, and that
can also go very wrong. It's like, I think it goes back to the point about like not being an extremity, Like yeah, it's it's amazing to be an extremely generous person. But also like I think for me, maybe this will sound really solesistic, and people can, you know, correct me if they think it is. But I think that you have to worry about your own malcuth number one, And it's not to the exclusion of other people or they're like their lives, especially if you're entangled karmically or socially
or you know, romantically whatever. But it's also like making sure that that is tight. Number one. And then you can see about Hesseid. So for me, that's how I approach a tree. And perhaps this is what makes me slightly more left hand path or maybe even more leftown path. But I but I'm okay with that. I can reconcile that to me that you have to like take care of yourself. This is something that I've only learned in my thirties, that you have to be like your number
one arbiter of your own. You have to be an agent of your of yourself, of your own quote unquote destiny or karma or fate or whatever it is. You cannot It's not an over reliance on others in terms of like even the support structures that you may have in terms in terms of tension or crisis, those can also falter. So you have to make sure that your so that your foundation is stable enough that you can even weather very adverse conditions. So I'm still working on it.
And I'm not saying this from like a you know, Clydesdale or anything like that. I'm I'm definitely not. I'm just saying this is like my real experience with it is that you have to be really careful with has said because it's so powerful like that capacity for giving, the capacity for generosity, the capacity for love, even romantic love, like it can go really wrong. That's why I always like,
we always talk about it. For Gray Lodge, it's like so important that like hessied gevra geburrah goadullah Hessed dean connection, it has to be in synthesis. It has to be in synthesis, otherwise you're going to go way too far off into a klipa in my opinion. That's just my opinion, but I agree, but I agree with what Forever's saying.
Yeah, psychologists actually have a really good understanding. I think of exactly what you're talking about though, or maybe what you're talking about from another aspect to in terms of
an overabundance of hesse, of loving, kindness, of generosity. So, and we see this in friendships, in relationships, especially romantic relationships, where one person is going too quickly and the other person's not a not there yet right, It usually is disrupt destructive to the relationship romantically, especially because you know
the other person's just not there yet. So you got to use din and judgment right to balance Hessed with your own cognizance so that you match the person, and psychologists have explained this now really well of why over giving to someone, for example, is an abuse of them, because you're pushing and forcing upon them the the the urge to elevate the relationship beyond where they're at, and that becomes an imposition that you're forcing upon them, whether
romantically or just in friendship or even familiar relationships. Right, And I've struggled with that. You know, when you want to be generous, sometimes you want to be generous, or when others are generous or too generous, it can make you feel uncomfortable. And I think that's a really good psychological example of what you're talking about. Actually, this is something well known at least, so that's cool.
That's really interesting that that whole breakdown you just said right there, cheers, thank you.
Maybe still thinking, I wonder if I have an example from the Seven Deadly Sins on that one.
Maybe not, but let me give you a little because you know, I prepared a little snippet from each of the so when we look at here's just another snippet from the workshop I'll be giving at Inokiacon in Austin at an Arcane Research Society Spring Workshop. Not at a Nokia con. But if you sign up for both one, you get all of it. So avarice is not just material greed. It's for example, recording of teachings or secrets, systems, tools,
and status. And the sin is found in those who are never really satisfied with the teachings they are giving. They're always seeking more, right, They're not able to balance
what they have with what they want. And so this turns the true secret to a greedy treasure hunter collecting spells and Grimor's crystals, cards and all of you know, great ranks for example, and that that's what leads to this sort of spiritual consumerism that imbalances us with that particular clip boat on the astral triangle, right, we're talking NETSC and hode that balance there. So there's a there's one sort of manifestation of that. Another one would be gluttony,
which is the spiritual consumption for self pleasure. And I say this synergy is seen when the magician performs rituals repeatedly for self pleasure, and their only pleasure being that what they themselves are inclined to do. Right, Oh, I want to I like this, so I do this. We
often will think that that's a good thing. But I suggest you ask yourself a tough and possibly nasty sort of question, which is, are you doing this ritual for transformation or are you doing the spiritual practice to change yourself and to grow or because you just like the feeling it gives you. Right, I think that's a perspective on it we don't usually see as we get further down the path.
Bliss consciousness can be very No, it's a good point because bliss consciousness can be addictive in the in specific context. You see this a lot on Buddhist Twitter. Not to be like that person who references Twitter, but as a Buddhist who is on like has a big account that's
on Twitter. I see this quite often. You'll have people talking about like Jona States or some of the other non tontric ways to get to certain kinds of consciousness that we would describe in contra, but they use like more I guess it's more pared down secular methodology to get there there, and you see them sort of like
have realizations, but then it's because they don't. It's not con creed, it's not rooted anywhere, and so this is maybe an interesting point is like they don't even have a conceptual framework, they don't even have a collopathic framework to contain what they're actually doing. So then after the experience, they just kind of get lost in it, and then they become addicted to that feeling because that is they are hitting maybe you could call it death or maybe
g nosis or whatever you want to call it. Sure, but they're also hitting that like pleasurable bliss state, which is fine and in a Tontic way. We would know how to deal with that because that is a big part of contra, not sex. I'm just saying bliss consciousness. But you know, I understand, like I get it, like
people do get addicted to things. I was even thinking glutt me when you were initially saying it freight or it's like I do think though hesse provides its own remedy, which is perhaps why it's often considered the most powerful sephra, which is love has to exist in perception. Both people must recognize that they like, whether we're talking familial, romantic friendship,
anything like, both people must be in mutual agreement. That is the true ahava, in my opinion, is that it's you're in like a mutual relational agreement that you're both friends or both in love or whatever it is, or that you're like you have an equilimbrium, an equipos as, like even in a familiar relationship, like you have to have some kind of balance. So yeah, I think that that's what Hesseid actually can give. But it's a much deeper meaning than most people treat Hesset.
Yeah, since you mentioned that, I love that you mentioned that because it ties right into my my looking at the sin of hesse the said deadly sin of Hesseid, which I treat as envy, and so I present that as a fracturing of the self, not just jealousy of others.
And so the shells of Hesset or the shell of hesse the klipa of Hesseid, use envy to break us in pieces within ourselves, and therefore to be envious, for example, of a fellow initiate who progresses apparently faster than we do, is just to be diluted, because we're all one, of course, and united ultimately in reality and in God. And so you know, envy then isn't just wanting what someone else has, it's actually losing contact with your own path.
I love that you said that because it actually matches the Buddhist framework that I've given for has said on the show many times, is that I've alwa said, I liken it to green Tara, blue green Tara from Buddhism because her remedy her the mental cliche. So the mental poison that she remedies is actually envy, and elementally it fits and as well because the soundscrit sort of color
theory and color magic it describes. Even though Hesse's usually described that the outer density as blue, which is I agree with it is fine, but in like Buddhist color magic, blue is also related, always related to green, so there's
always like a blue green sort of turquoise element. And if you look at like what the Ramak was saying, like Rabbi Cordovero, he was talking about the turquoise quality of Hessaid, the turquoise quality of God, which is really like water or like ice, which is actually really clear. And so it's really interesting because there's the exact parallel in Buddhism that like the sort of diamond thunder clarity, rigpa, whatever you want to call it, primordial ground consciousness that
is also turquoise. So I don't know, which is also clear, is what I'm trying to say. But turquoise is considered blue green. So there's a really interesting sort of like elemental association with HESD being like the ocean, but there's also like the air, there's water vapor, which you could say is hope ma. It's sort of like this interstitial the supernal waters. I've heard it called many times. I've called it out myself, and like a sort of a tension in the waters below and the waters above that
creates like a stable field of lightning. Like that's a very has said way to sort of conceptualize the suffra. So I agree with you. I think that's really interesting that you tied it to envy because that's exactly how I would treat it as well.
Yeah, no, yeah, I love how how in sync we are on so much here today. It's great. It's great, Jen, You're You're awesome man. I'd love to come back, of course and do a clip ooat part two with you guys. Oh yeah, in a couple months before before the spring workshop in Austin, which I hope everyone goes and signs up for at at Arcane Research Society dot com, Forward slash twenty twenty six, because it's going to be a
good workshop. You can attend online or in person. And yeah, Jason Louver will be presenting and Craig Williams, both guys who know a lot about the cliphoath as well. And yeah, I'll hopefully be a very enlightening wereifying a full day of workshops for everyone who attends.
Nice, nice, Yeah, I look forward to that. I want to try to make that actually.
Oh yeah, you and I have to talk a lot. We've got a lot to talk about, so I'll instagram you and and hopefully we can actually have a phone call and talk about because you know, we wanted we're doing all these events and next year we're in Prague and doing events in Europe, so like you know, we need to start getting pro some pro footage to bang out some documentaries. Along the way.
That was actually a place we want to go, Broil come with us. Yeah, I have an excuse, I have.
I have a whole proposal for you. So maybe after this we can maybe I can later tonight if you're free, I can give you a ring.
All right? Yeah, yeah, yeah sure. Did anybody else have any other questions? Because it is it's already after two hours. I just realized, so maybe we could wrap it up and do a part two in the future. Like you said, I did have If any anybody doesn't have a quote, any questions, I do have one more that I thought maybe we could try to end it with. I guess kind of like after everything, like, what is it really to you that you're actually working on or getting out of this?
What is this my spiritual life?
Yeah?
Yeah, yeah.
The word that keeps coming to me, seemingly from above is fullness. And maybe that isn't the perfect word or a full description, but it sure does help me survive the brutality of this world. And as anyone who knows me knows, I've had a brutal recent few years well from covid On, especially with the loss of my sister or the other like beyond brutal, and if you know
the circumstances that led up to that, it's unimaginable. Obviously there's always people who go through worse things, of course, but yeah, I think I would have died a long time ago without my spiritual path to, if not always keep me balanced, help me find my way back when I get lost. And then there's the fact that on the Hermetic path you you proceed so that you can
also help guide others. That's an inherent part of Hermetica teachings and hermetic spirituality is that you are there to experience awakening so that you can then help guide others to that same fullness, which is the initiation into your higher consciousness, your news, your which gives you access to everything, ever where, and all of it, the wholeness of existence, according again to the ancient Egyptian and Greco Egyptian Hermetica
and those teachings. And that's what has lined up since I was young with my natural experience of the world as a meditating yoga kid, just inherently reaching out into nature and existence and saying what the fuck and listening to what came back to me from existence, and nothing has described that journey as clearly as the hermetic writings have, and then the various traditions that grew out of it and developed tools and techniques and initiation systems to guide us along the way.
That was great, Thank you man.
Another way of saying that is it helps me love others and myself better. And that's what better way to love God, right than others and ourselves, because to not do that is to profane what we have been given by God or nature or reality, however you want to conceptualize it. Again, I tend to not think theistically. But you know.
Asterisk as DCS says, there's no problem with God like I have no problem discussing it as God either or as the tree like I don't. I've said this many times, like on recording, no problem that there's no problem to like say God, or like I would say like Shiva or like Shiva consciousness or whatever framework you want to use. I have no problem. I think it's I think it's fine.
I think it depends on your audience. So I wasn't trying to be overly corrected before Freder I just to make sure that you know, like, if I said something, it wasn't going to be in contradiction to like the framework that you laid out.
Yeah, of course I get it. Yeah. My whole main academic book, my master's thesis, is all is right up your alley. It's all. It's a it's a apaphatic, non metaphysical, anti auto theological approach to the ethics of understanding God. And you can get that book online. It's called the Ethics of Understanding God. But God's got a line through it nice, which in philosophy is called speaking under erasure,
I believe it or not. So you draw a line through a word if you want to eradicate the metaphysical underpinnings of it, to open it up to new possible meetings. And that's Jacques Derrida.
It's very breaking the klipa because words can.
Be exactly see you see where I'm going with that? Brother, Yeah, baby.
Like that.
Love it. This has been such a treat. Thank you so much for having me on today. I'm happy to stick around a bit longer, but I just really appreciate it because I'm excited to return to this topic and to bring, you know, forty five years of experience to it that I did not have when I first wrote about such a major theme. And I also want to add I don't think, I definitely know I wouldn't have gotten into the trouble I got into when I messed
around with the cleepout in the grade of practice. Had I been an adept, I would have had tools and initiations that allowed me to not have any problems with that. So again, from experience, I will say it can also be a cautionary tale of just yet, don't look, don't leap before you look. It listened to the wisdom of others, because you don't know what you don't know, and sometimes you just need to get to a better like if someone had told me, it's not about hiding dark, secret
knowledge and power from you. It's just about making sure you are stable and grounded and full enough as a human being to be able to confront those things. I probably would have not fucked around and found out. But I did. I did find out. I wrote a book on it, and now I'm rewriting that book with almost three decades a new experience and seeing it play out even more. Oh my god. But again I'll save that for the book and the workshop.
There you go. No, thank you, man. I love getting you on the show. So it's always a pleasure for us.
It's an honor. It's an honor.
Thanks.
Thanks.
Before we wrap it up, let everybody real quick, just remind everybody where they could find this stuff. Judith alone, what is going on?
Thank you again for having me. It's great to see you, Jin and Matt, and always a pleasure for to RC and everyone else. You could find me on YouTube and on x as the Loon, and you could find my podcast on spreaker.
Awesome. Thank you so much for joining us tonight. Appreciate it. And Jin then Ninja, what is that?
What is up? Cardinal? Thank you so much for having me on. I know it's been at it's been a minute, but it's you know, I've been. I was on sporadically last month, so you know it was it wasn't like a long hiatus, and I just needed a little, you know, a quick minute to get myself together as a kid say, and you know, sometimes it's good to deal a little, you know, withdrawn and just like think about like how you want to proceed, like pathwork. So that's all maybe
just taking that moment to do that. So but yeah, Threshold Saints, we're rocking and rolling on the feed. I'm so glad that Judith set up her feed. I saw that she made that post, so everybody should check that out. Of course, check out Matt's work on his website, all his like enter Camu and of course our stuff on the Gray Lodge. I would say thank you to all the sub subscribers. It's increased my shows reached by like a thousand listeners per episode, so wow, Threshold Saints dotstock
dot com. Uh, that's the best place, but of course Apple and Spotify. Ike Baker's episode, which is called Metacognition, will be out, yeah, probably Saturday. I'll probably finish it on Saturday. It's edited, but I just I have to put like my little you know, remix on it. So yeah,
everybody can check that out. Of course, there's like the three part episodes with Soschkey and then the new episode with b d Those were just released in the last four days, so there's plenty and there's plenty more coming and Nick Nick's going to be mister ninety three, so you know it's coming up really soon. So yeah, everybody can check that out. And of course you can listen to me and DCS hash it out with my like non Dual Kabala on episode ninety one, Code of the
Lightning Flash, so people are interested in that. Thank you guys, appreciate everybody. Judith Matt afraid O r C and of course.
Night Oh thank you. I was really happy you made this topic. I know we've been talking about it for probably like a year and a half. So finally made it happen. Matt More, what's going on, Bud, Thank you very much for making it as well.
Thank you, very happy to be here, very happy to be in this conversation. Thanks Frauder, Thanks Judith Jin and mister ninety three as left when didnt says that somebody anyways, you can always find me as at Medmore nineteen. That's gonna be on YouTube, act TikTok, Instagram, maybe some other place. And like she said, there's the project enter gamu dot com where again always a lot of stuff going on there for now behind an invite code, so if you'll join,
just them me and I'll hook you up. And there's also the Kabbala Library, so that's a A A B A L A H you can use. If you use Claude, for example, as your AI, you can ask it to use this library and you can do like any astro calculation or numerology or matria or whatever. A lot of colpulations are also correspondses, so if you want to see obviously I mean that I'm putting the corresponses that I want to put there, but the thing is open sources well, so if you.
Want to put more, feel free.
But yeah, you can see corresponses to the spheres, the paths to from musical notes to western A strategy signs and whatever you can do all sorts of crazy things. They're trying to always add more features. Anyways, your curre is just you know, I don't kill up on that as well.
Thanks again everyone, No, thank you Man and Freda. I'll see please again. Let everybody know where they can find all of your stuff before it gets, you know, taken down. Shadow Man.
Hermetic podcast dot com. Check out my Hermetic Mystery School, join my free cyber guild, join my YouTube, Patreon or website, but most importantly go to Arcane research i dot com, Forward Slash twenty twenty six or in Nokiacon dot com takes you to the same page and check out the events we're doing this year. And before I go, I'd love to actually know where all you are in the world, because I don't think you're all in America, are you No?
No, I'm in North.
Carolina, North Carolina in ike Ike Country.
Yeah, yeah, about six hours away from.
Did you see the did you see my April Fools video?
No? No, no, no.
Oh I I I put out a video call It's just short video called simple Mage for April Fools and uh. It's uh. It starts out with the It's a song that starts out with the lion, with the with the phrase Ike Baker. Ike Baker taught me when I was you know, blow it's I rewrote the words to simple Man to be simple Mage about Ike Baker, and I play it on guitar. Yeah, verses I need. We'll write the rest of the verses and perform it at an Nokia con with Icon drums. But yeah, check out two
verses of simple Mage. Be a simple kind of mage, be balanced without rage.
Oh God, I gotta check this out. Nice.
I didn't know where are you, Matt?
So sorry. I didn't know you played the guitar.
I was a musician for almost a full time professional musician for almost twenty years. Yeah, up until psoriasis destroyed my hands. I'm now on the Lion diet and it is starting to slowly recover by just eating ruminant meat and nothing else. Yeah. I play a dozen instruments. I have a new seven inch vinyl coming out this summer with two new songs, The Ballad of Bridget and the Ballad of Lou which are spell songs that I wrote in ritual and recorded with a couple one partner, my buddy.
I did all the instruments on them, bazooki, guitar, flutes, whistles, bagpipes and some other things. And then my buddy did keys and he just wanted Juno for playing keys. Uh. His name is Justin Hagberg and his main band he tours with his Three Inches of Blood. So we're doing a whole album of songs based on the Tua Ja Donna on the Tuatha Day Donna of the Irish Gods.
Very interesting, super nice.
Yeah, I was, I was. I was a folk star, folk rock and roller for a very long time and and uh always wanted to get back to teaching and magic. But then I guess I didn't do it soon enough in nature and the my physical body forced me to by robbing me of the use of my hands.
Mm hm.
That's rough. Mhm h Matt, I don't know if.
Ye.
Yeah.
So, I mean I'm kind of a booemium right now. So I'm right now, I'm in Brazil, but I'm gonna be in all fun next month, then back well again, then probably somewhere else and whatever. Like, just.
Are you Brazilian originally or were you born you see? Wow? Very cool, very cool. Yeah, I'd love to get to Brazil and my friends always send me pictures. Of course, there's also a Jewish professor there who owes me some money. So if you know any affordable.
Bounty, I'm very curious about that.
You know, one thing I will for the reason I was sure he wouldn't rip me off was because life is so cheap in those countries, Like, why would you rip someone off when you live in a country where your life is worth fifty bucks? You know what I mean. I don't want to spell it out because we're on YouTube, but that's what your life's working worth in a lot of countries. Fifty bucks is what it costs, maybe one
hundred if they use a more significant tool. Shall we say again, I don't want to use certain words on this platform. But like I was, like, you're not going to screw me over because it would take like, you know anyway. I'm not that kind of person, of course, And so he's lucky. People take advantages off advantage of us right hand path people because they know we aren't gonna do harm to others.
But yeah, Yeah, they'll come back to them. Yeah. Oh yeah, was there anything else you want to do? Oh? Is there anything else you wanted to promote or anything? Oh? Wait? Was he? That's right? You also asked where everybody.
Was from Gin? Yeah, Jin, Are you in China or Japan or someplace like that.
I'm Canadian?
Oh right, that's I knew that. I knew that we went over there.
I was actually funny when you were talking about it, because I was a West Fan kid and I always wanted to actually live in North Fan because like because you can live in the forest amongst the trees.
And I grew up in Lynne Valley.
But you know, I also have lived in Asia, and I've also lived in the US and also Toronto, so I've I've kind of.
That's crazy.
I've lived all over my like post COVID life. I was just like, I'm gonna, you know, live my quiet well we'll call it like a gentry gentry larp, like where I pretend to be like a gentleman farmer. So that's basically what I do now, because I not what I do, but it's like part of like what I sort of manifested for myself. We'll call it postcover.
It's incredible, incredible. So you're from the same town as me basically, well, West Van is where my mom grew up. There on Marine Drive. They have a big place, so you know, you know what that means. And uh, yeah, I grew up in North Inland Valley, you know, right near Frederi Achad's grave is where I grew up and doing ritual work at his grave is.
You talked about this a little.
When when did you leave Vancouver? Are you there? Are you here now?
No, my sister still lives in Vancouver and my grandparents too crazy.
You have to hit me up next time you're in town.
Yeah, I mean, I honestly I go. So I just don't tell anyone. I just will. I'll go to Vancouver for three or four days and I'll like come back and just be like.
We'll tell me your love.
But sure, I'll uh we'll try and make it happen the next time I'm there. And yeah, no, I mean, I you know, I did like a whole like we did with the Gray Lodge. So Matt and like the other guy that we shouted out, Solar and obviously Joshua who's also part of the Gray Lodge we did a whole like eleven part series called a on of the Daughter. I didn't know Frederichrod's work, Like, I really didn't. I was kind of like a bit of our r tard on it. But yeah, I mean it's been a big
it's been like sort of my whole project. Like if I quit podcasting tomorrow, I'll be like okay about it, because I kind of we did that. We we kind of like brought back the a of the Daughter working in like a chaos magic kind of left hand path. But we yeah, yeah, we kind of did it like rock and roll style on the internet.
So rock and roll.
That's awesome. And where do you live today?
I live on the country.
Oh you're still in BC.
No, I don't live in BC.
Oh on the East coast? Yeah, okay, well that might be where I'm heading with the cost of rent the home season now, I'm I have my eye on a few places, so I'll I'll let you know what I'm thinking. And it's cool.
That I've ever dropped on the show. Yeah, yeah, respect myself.
So you're a mysterious man, a man of mystery. I love it. I love it.
It's a ninja. Yeah.
Well so like I grew up in the nineties training in bujin Kan in West Mahan at the foot of Grouse Mountain in on at the you know, in the playgrounds of schools there. That's what we did our training, just outside on the cement, in the grass and on the hills sides and all of that. So that's what I was. I was doing ninja training while you were probably there growing up as an injury yourself, at least in spirit. I'm not sure what your martial arts background is, but.
Well I.
Told this that my dad, like he's ethnic Chinese obviously, but from the Indonesia. So yeah, we grew up. We grew up fighting like learning sea lot and uh also, my dad knows Windschin but it's like street style kind of wind hun like very like the kids would like mimic other people or mimic films, but it is kind of real too. So yeah, my dad's really tough, like a he's like a tough he's like a you know, like if you've ever seen the Raid, like that's my dad. But just like in so.
Very cool.
My dad's like a tough guy. So he made sure that my sister and I could fight and all that stuff.
That's so ninjas. We probably know people in common from the North shore Man.
Yeah maybe, I mean mostly were from Hong Kong, so maybe I don't know. I don't know how cool you are with those people.
I was dating a Chinese Hong Kong born fiddler for a lot of those years that you were probably around, and she was from there as well. So yeah, I mean that's the Vancouver way, right.
True.
Man's wild, fantastic, awesome, it's bugged up.
Yeah, all right, you.
Guys just get cooler and cooler.
Yeah, see, that's what happens. That's that's what we keep on having your own too. Thank you very much.
Man cheers.
That was really that was really Uh, that was a lot.
A lot my pleasure. I came prepared.
No, you definitely did. He definitely did well. After I realized how much work you put into it. When you told me last time, I was like, oh fuck, definitely got to get you on, you know. So yeah, me and Jenna talked about trying to do the topic and I was just like, it's kind of a heavy thing to talk on. And once you had mentioned something, I was like, well fuck it, I'll just have you on, you know.
I think there's a choice. This has done a very
good job. I think the collaboration was a very effective way of dealing with this, especially with Jin's points, but with everyone here teasing out the ideas so that people could listening, so everyone in the audience could really get a sense of broad perspectives that they can give them more avenues and inroads to the topic without feeling, you know, sort of gang rushed into popular avenues of approach and methodologies and often be sensationalized and dangerous if you really
take them the wrong way.
Agree, totally agree, and thank you very much. That's what we're trying to do here, I think, so all right, thank you very much. Again, was anything that you wanted to promote your YouTube and stuff? Again? Is there anything that you left out?
Fred Orc on YouTube? Come subscribe, you know and like my if you can't support by joining becoming a member. The new algorithm on YouTube disproportionately favors likes, So if you like your favorite creators videos or just go through a bunch of their videws and like them has a massively disproportionate effect for us on YouTube these days, you
literally change someone's life by just liking their videos. It's crazy, So go like and subscribe if you want, but definitely do the liking because you really can change the game for someone.
That is very true. Like, subscribe comments if you want. Definitely, all that stuff actually helps, I think with the algorithm. Yeah, all right, well again, we'll definitely get you back on for a part too. I'm sure there's plenty. I actually there was a lot of questions I didn't even ask, so I mean, yeah, we could totally have another one. And thank you all again for coming on. It was a little bit longer than I expected, but I think it was awesome. It went better than I could even
have ever imagined. And thank you everybody in the chat. There's a lot of people here looked like from the beginning to the end. That's what's tough. That's awesome. That's definitely putting in some work. I appreciate it. That's where we go live and until the next one, everybody be well later.