You see something's going to happen. What What's going to happen?
What a.
Cool Welcome to the Occult Rejects.
This episode we got a very very special guest, somebody I can't even believe I got on the show and.
This is very exciting.
But before we get to Eg Baker, we will introduce the other rejects and with me today I got Ethan Indigo.
What is going on?
So?
How are you.
Well?
Peace?
Is an honor to be here and speak with you guys and learn from Mike. This is going to be exciting. I'm really really looking forward to this. Uh Ethan Indigo Smith on all the social media easy to find frequently writing articles and occasionally even books.
So yeah, honor to be here with all of you.
Thank you for making it, sir. I know it's like eight o'clock for you, so I appreciate it. And my man Jin then Ninja, what is going on?
Sir?
How I? What's up? Boss?
Mister ninety three?
I'm going to not famboy maybe well I probably will. So I'm a big fan of Ike show and I in general. And you know I did speak with Greg k yesterday as I subtle Bragg's pre recording, and we talked about Ike's book The Formless Fire and Quote. It is one of the best esoteric contemporary esoteric texts.
Of probably the twenty first century.
So you know, so it's big words and so I'm I'm just I'm a little bit in awe.
So I'll try out to be a nerd.
But if you want to follow me, you can follow me on Twitter x at woocomme Born w UK and g Reborn can follow me on Threshold Saints at Threshold Saints on both x I, which is the show, and of course The Gray Lodge the True Gray Lodge dot Com t r v E Gray Lodge dot com and Matt Mura is of course our my co host in that as well as the webmaster and he runs all our socials. So thank you so much. And yeah, I'm
really excited. So thanks Snick for setting this up. I know we've talked about it for over a year, so wow, thank you. Hey, you know that'll problem. Hey, my man, Matt, I'm glad you can make it against her. Always love having you here, bro, so let everybody know in case they don't know what you're dealing with.
Awesome, super happy to be here. As well, and I was checking out Ike's work and it's really fascinating. Let's have an amazing talk today. So again, Matt Mura always at mattmore nineteen on all socials that is Instagram, Twitter, TikTok, YouTube, Twitch, maybe some other places site for that. There's also my website Kabala dot com. That's k A A b A l a h dot com. A lot of cool updates
there that I did last week. Really excited to coming back to working on it and also doing readings, So a lot of space to do readings now, which is kind of betas So if you get it, you're in for a good treat because afterwards, I'll definitely rise the prices because it takes a lot of work to do all this stuff. But I'll keep everyone that kind of started now in a grandfather state, so always getting the updates.
And yeah there's the spaces as well. We will likely upload some older spaces in YouTube the coming weeks, and yeah, that's going to be really good stuff. Thanks again for calling.
No of course, and thank you very much for joining us today, sir. And finally today we are joined by Ike Baker and No Jamatra heads. We are not talking about the Cabala of Nine Chambers. This is the author of a Formless Fire and Etheric Magic, and the mind behind the podcast are Canam. Ike's work lives right between the sweet spot between scholarship and practice, with a Western so teric history, initiatory traditions and the actual mechanics of
ritual and theogy without the bullshit. He's also trained in energy work modalities like reiki and keegong, and his newest work builds a full system for working with the ethereal with the ether as a practical experience experiential technology.
Uh.
Very happy again, Like Jim was saying, we'll try not to fanboy this guy too much, but Ike, I'm very very happy to have you on the show. And anything that I left out, please let everybody know you know about yourself and where they can find all your amazing work.
Yeah.
Well, I really appreciate you having me on. Honestly, you guys have had some big guests. You've had some big guests, You've had some great conversations, so I'm really happy to be able to participate. Yeah, you can find me on ike ike Baker dot com. I K E B A K E r uh anything you want about me is up there. I've got uh my three latest you know
podcast episodes. I've got the last documentary style presentation from the Arcanem channel, which you can see it in uh just below in the bottom left or right of my screen. A R C A n v M was foolish enough to use the Latin type setting, and uh uh that's that. You can find that on YouTube, Spotify and Apple podcasts.
Uh. I like to keep things.
I like to keep myself a little available right to to to an extent within within reason, to the public. So for anybody that that listens to this uh conversation we're gonna have today and wants to reach out and wants to have a few words on my website at the bottom right hand corner, there's a little chat widget, and whatever you write in there, please be nice, comes straight to my personal inbox.
That'd be rough for me. It's it.
It's rough for me.
That's awesome.
So I guess if you don't mind, I mean, I hate to just jump right into it, but uh, I guess where did you find yourself out one day walking down this path?
Like was there a moment in history that you still.
Remember or a thing that happened or whatever, like opened up a book and they're like, oh my god, this is it?
You know, was it a gradual thing?
Like you know, well, it's.
It's a story. It's definitely a story. And I've told it a bunch of times. So anybody that's heard it, sorry, bear with me. No, no, no, it's you know, for your audience. I'd I'd love to tell it because it's kind of interesting. I as a kid, I had I'd always studied comparative religions. It was very interested and pulled
towards the mysterious, the newminous. I liked being in religious buildings, temples and cathedrals and things that for some reason it it scratched aniche that I I wasn't fully aware I had, and as I got older, I began to study stuff. But the thing is, I wasn't you know, I'm originally from Long Island, New York, so it's you know, it's one of those things we're growing up in the late nineties and early two thousands in my neighborhood.
What was available to me was like Dan Brown, occultism. You know, I didn't have.
I didn't realize that I had little esoteric pockets and communities just yet when I was like, you know, seventeen eighteen. So I studied at a very topical level Cabbala, freemasonry, things of this nature, without being involved.
And then.
Things take a dramatic turn.
I was about nineteen years old and my aunt had a tenant, very nice lady, very quiet, lady, kept to herself.
One day she threw herself in.
Front of a train, and my aunt goes down into the apartment and she sees that this lady was a hoarder, and she's got.
These books, stacks of books.
Like in the movie is Where You Got There's there's like pathways and things, journals still wrapped in the cell of Phane. So she asked me, over right, I mean, anybody that's interested in the occult, you know, heavy, the deceptively heavy.
A box full of books can be.
So she invites me over to to help her, you know, clear out the apartment. And I found this one book and it's still on my Kabbala shelf over there, and it was called The Oracle of Kabbala by Richard Sideman. And it's a very thin book. And I know this is weird, right, It's the dead lady's property. But do you mind if I take this? And she says yeah, sure, of course. So the next day I walk around my neighborhood in Babylon and I read the whole thing because
it was very short. Now, when I was done reading it, I wouldn't say that I was necessarily educated to a greater depth or degree than I was before I read it. But something in me struck a chord. It was like, I know this is important. This is the untapped, the unopened drawer. Really to get into this, to really get into this, like, let's figure this out so.
When people use these things.
I went on the white pages or the yellow pages on the internet and I typed in Long Island Kabbala Study Group really guy's name and information came up.
Reached out to him. He got back to me.
He said that group doesn't meet anymore, but there's this other thing. And the other thing was the Hermitic Order of the Golden Dawn, and I didn't really.
Know what magic was.
I kind of stumbled into that door and it didn't It wasn't like it was like, oh.
This beautiful path.
Immediately I was actually a no call, no show to my first initiation, I totally flaked out because I was nervous. I didn't really know, you know, what the hell what am I doing here? These people think they're doing magic like Harry Potter wand waving shit like this is crazy.
But several years.
Later, my life suffered like a total collapse, and something in my gut, so I mean my entire body was burning, telling me you got to go back to these folks. And so I went hat in hand and I said, please, you know, I'm really sorry, but I feel like I have to do this, and they gave me another shot, and now the rest is history. I'm a senior Adept of the Hermitic Order of the Golden Dawn under the Cicero lineage, and I am the imperator of the North Carolina Temple that we run out of Asheville.
That's wild. The guy moved from Long Island to North Carolina, just like me.
Fucking bugged out. When I was talking him, I was just like, wait, what's going on right now?
Yeah, Well, it's one of those states that if you move from a place like Long Island, it's not like depending on where you go.
But I felt like I just moved to portion Road.
Yeah, exactly.
The suburbs down here are not not culture shock. They're they're not Yeah, it's not like too crazy. Although my fiance and I were living out in the country tree for a while and we lived but we had like amish neighbors.
Was wow, yeah, my cousin's got that.
He's like thirty minutes out of Rally, he's got like, you know, his neighbors were like, you know, the real country people. But yeah, by where I'm at, it almost looks like kind of like three forty seven or something like over my Stony Brook, like it's you know, still it's still got shit going on. It's just that, you know, ridiculous.
Oh yeah, so all right, yeah, you know what's I think the first book I ever came across, and it did pique my interest, and I think that's what actually kind of made me start like talking to other people in high school that were into magic or witchcraft.
It was a fucking necronomicon.
Actually, one of my friends had it, and uh, I don't even know where the fuck he got it from, but he had it and we started reading it and like one day it was just like, oh, like I think we're in his basement trying to do something out of it, and you know, who the fuck knows what we're doing back then. But that definitely did, uh, I guess interest me and make me think it was you know, possible or real.
Stuff like that was real.
So kind of like after that, I think I started become intrigued by other stuff and eventually I got.
Into this stuff, I guess real. No, not not too fast.
But these books that you have, uh, would you like to like at least you know, I would like to give you a chance to kind of promote them. I give people a little bit of an understanding of what some of them are about, if you if you want to.
Yeah, we can talk about that.
Sure.
I did spend the last three years of my life putting them together. Yeah, I think it'd be worth it.
Yeah.
My first book came out twenty twenty four, and that was Under Tree, a Prima press or, a Masonic imprint out of Phoenix, Arizona.
Uh.
You know the great Masonic astrologer Jamie Paul lamb Is, who was actually a mentor to me. Oh, he's been on here too, Yeah, Jamie's Jamie's like, Uh, that's my guy. If there's if there's no Jamie, there's no Ike. I tell people that all the time. But yeah, he said, they published my first book. And they basically said, you know, hey, would you well, you ever thought about writing a book?
And I said, I'm an a cultist, of course I have, But like, what hell am I going to say in a way that is, you know, how can I contribute in a way that's as eloquent as you know, somebody else, one of these great authors in our tradition.
But after a while, I was like, you know what, I checked in.
I did some divination, I did some ritual and I'm like, this actually might be a really cool opportunity. Let's see what happens. Let me allow myself to be guided. And so I said, what do you want me to write about? And they said, you can write about literally anything. And then I just kind of arrived at this conclusion that if I if I can write about anything, I'm going
to write about everything. So a formuless fire is laid out to give the history, theory, and practice of Western esotericism from the as far back as we can go in you know, Sumerian Mesopotamian cultures up until about you know, the nineteen sixties with the Orem Solis and uh and and the the Wick and Revival and things of this nature. But I really really dial down into a lot of different histories because I'll be frank, the person that I had in mind reading this was a new Mason, Okay.
But the thing is, like that is a common trope in occultism.
This new Mason kind of wanders in and he's you know, starry eyed, and he's he's got a lot of enthusiasm and and you.
Know, very green.
Doesn't matter how old you are, you know, but many of us come in and we're just like, oh, this is a new world. And then you eventually go down these these roads. You get shoulder taps to participate in Martinism, or one of the appendant bodies or one of the Rosy Crucian bodies, and you start discovering, oh, all these names, Ruis Kellner, Westcott Mathers, and you see all these Masons,
all of them were Mason. These people who created you know, the Oto, the original Oto, Carl Kellner and Theodore's the Golden Dawn, the Societist Rosie Cruciana in Anglia, these guys were all Masons.
They were very esoteric. So the thing is, now.
All this stuff is is seeing a mainstream kind of uh appearance and somewhat of a support. So so now it's like it's not just not just Masons, but it's like like like early Masons, Masons early in their career. It's like almost anybody can come to this stuff and be looking around like almost overwhelmed.
What is this?
How do I get involved? How do I keep my my my footing sure? And so that's that's who I wrote the book for. So I give you really a very thorough contextualization of the entirety of the tradition to the best of my ability. So that goes through Platonism, Neoplatonism, Hermetism, Hermeticism, gnosticism, and all the way up into the occult revival and things of this nature. I go into Martinism Elu Cohen as much as I could fit. I got a couple
of I got some pushback from the Barden people. They were like, oh, you should have written more about him. At that point it gets it turns into a slippery slope.
I mean, the book's like almost five hundred pages as it is, but yeah, and then at the end there are I think eight or nine appendices with practical instructions for everything from preparation of an alchemical or spagiric preparation to the consecration of salt and water to middle pillar exercise and the lesser ritual of the Pentagram with my commentary. So it was quite an intense work, and Jamie edited it and so did Jake Treyer, and we.
Put it out and it was immediately critically received.
Well, so.
There's that that's still available.
And then E Theoric Magic I released with Lluellen Luellen Worldwide, that came out this year.
In April, and.
Yeah, that also has a kind of a funny story. I was at the Sacred Space between the World Conference I think in twenty twenty four, twenty three EVO Domingas had invited me to go up there, like kind of last minute.
I had take off work.
We're going to set Carpenter at the time, and I drove up to Maryland and I didn't really look at the schedule. I just had like three four days to get this whole trip together. I get up there for the morning of the second day and I look at the schedule. This is the first time I've laid eyes on the schedule and it's right there, like eight o'clock in the morn you got five minutes in a room with a Lleuellen editor to pitch them a book.
And I was like, yeah, I'll do this.
I didn't even know you could do this shit at conferences, but yeah, let's give an issh just so I get I get online and the line is dwindling. You know, I'm getting closer to going in and I realize like, oh shit, I don't have a book. I just kind of hopped online in my excitement and I didn't like think about what I was going to pitch.
Uh.
This is the kind of overconfidence I sometimes can have that my fiance will tell you all about. Just I'm the guy in the pool fully clothed while everybody else is getting their swimming trunks on.
I just dive in.
But it almost immediately dropped into my head. It's like, listen, dummy, what about the stuff you've been doing for the last ten fifteen years. Right, You've been a practitioner in the system of Western ceremonial magic, and you've also been a practitioner right studying and practicing Chinese medicine, body work. They make you take elective. That's how I got into chigung. I had to take chigung classes. I went to school up in.
Sciacid at the.
New York College of Health Professions, and I got my you know, my massage therapy degree. I went to school also in Stonybrook, very shortly for physical therapy. But really, my love, there was truly an acupunctured Chinese medicine.
And with that came all the energy work.
And I realized at a certain point, these are two things that need each other, you know, they are two sides of one coin. And in the West we don't have as sophisticated a vernacular and a framework and a system for working with the energy that ultimately empowers your magic.
So I was like, yeah, talk to her about that.
So I talked for five minutes, told her about this book idea. My editor said, sounds good. Send me your introduction and a chapter sample. I was like okay, and I went to the I went to the dining room and the conference hotel. I wrote everything there and sent it to her, and yeah, that book has done. It's done really well. It's being translated into into other languages. We're gonna do uh nice, Yeah, we're gonna We're gonna do a follow up too eventually.
That is awesome. Uhboy, when I ask anything, Gin, you want to ask.
Anything, Yes, I do.
I've been waiting. Thanks Snaki obviously read my mind on the eighth wave. I this is tangent gentile to what you were saying, but I think it actually fits in perfectly with the theme of books. So on your episode on his show, recent episode with Greg as well as with Jamie, who's probably the.
Best cabalist I've ever met, probably.
And I always thought of myself as quite good, as Matt and Joshua both know, And it was a little bit of a shock, but I humbled myself beforehim.
No, I didn't even know what to say to the guy.
I was.
Kind of blew my mind.
Yeah, I totally agree.
Jamie's extremely impressive and it comes up often on the show because of his like innovative way. He's pretty much redefined that astrogoetic the works that he outlines me, no one else is even comes close to what that is. And so that was a big honor to speak with him some. Thanks again, Nick, But you've talked about the importance of kabala as kind of a backdrop of the working reality. And this is something that we talk about in the Gray Lodge with Matt and the branch Joshua
all the time. Matt calls it pop kabala. I call it speculative kabala. I know that's not quite the same, but there's an overlap that where we both understand each other.
And I just want to if you have a few words on that, just simply because it's something that like we've done a whole kabala series on this show, and Nick and I obviously became friends because of it sort of, and you know, so I think it is under appreciated and under sort of articulated way to map both map Western esotericism, but maybe also map more universal primordial maybe if we want to be a little Evolian or because I'm not a perennialist, I'm really more of an ax list.
But I just think that that's an interesting kind of framework, like you can map both things onto the tree and then you can also understand things through the tree.
So I just wanted to hear your thoughts on it. I'm sorry, I know that's a quite I've got.
A lot of thoughts on that.
I just finished teaching a course over We did six sessions called Hermetic Kabbala for practitioners and initiates, and I was very successful. We went We're very very deep. We did a really really thorough deep dive. Now, the thing is this, You've got different categories of kabbala, right, which is sometimes a reduction and an oversimplification, but look, it works. People get on me, They get on my ass about the same thing I say, East tradition, Western tradition. We
understand it's part of a whole. But if you want to be a really good mechanic, you can't call everything under the hood. Car Like, we need to be able to talk about this stuff and express distinctions so that we can compare and contrast. And so her Medic Kabala is quite different than Hebrew kabbala or ultimately derivative more so from Christian kabbala, right, because this is who the really the creators of What we understand is that her medicabala.
They were reading Noir von Rosenwrath, they were reading Althanasius Kursher, they were reading Joannis roy Klin, and so they were also reading the Seffayette Seira, but very very small book, and it's it's that is much more Hellenistic than.
Some of the other like say the Zohar, so her medicabala is something that is is where you it has been abstracted. Right.
People say, oh, kabbala is Hebrew mysticism. I don't think that's accurate. I would say kabbala is a system of esoteric exegesis interpretation. They're taking this framework and they rabbis are applying it to their scripture nowhere else, and they're interpreting their scripture. Now the Christians come, they get it really through Pico della Mirandola, and they start they start
drilling into Hebrew and Christian scriptures. The Hermetic caabaalist takes it out of scripture and say, okay, we can apply this to this, to that, to tarot cards, to everything, and so it becomes this great filing cabinet that really eventuates in the system of the Golden Dawn.
That codification seven.
Seven seven that Crowley put out was actually a Golden Dawn pamphlet that he took and published. But they had done many of those initiates had done that work to to sort of make these correspondences, and it goes back even to the sort of the French systems of esoteric masonry like Martinism and the Yelu Cohen, and not so much Martinism, but I would say more than the Yellu Cohen and things of that nature, stuff that has this quasi chivalric Masonic thing that were toying with the Kabbala
in the eighteenth century and started coming up with these ideas. But really it reaches its perfection into how we understand it today through the Golden Dawn, and then it seeds right. Regordi takes it, the Unfortune takes it, Crowley takes it, Franz Barden takes it, very similar system to the Golden Dawn, and they proliferate it and so that you've got a lot of the tradition through that swath, and so that the key is to bring bring the pieces back together.
But there's if you can understand the Kabbala as a system of correspondences through the gold and Dawn, you can understand any kind of Kabbala because it is it's the most i would say, rigorous, inclusive.
At the end of the day, it's a framework.
Yep.
The biggest thing that I tell people is you come to this stuff and if you're too rigid, because at a certain stage in the Golden dawn work right, you drill down you all this rote memorization of what correspondences go where, and then that all gets turned on its head and everything gets put upside down and over here and over there.
It's like, well, that's this left brained kind of approach to information that modern people have that doesn't work with magic. Everything has to be you have to prepare for this stuff to permutate, be used here, be used there. It's useful to ingrain that system of correspondence is memorize the tree, work with the tree. But at the end of the day, you've got to be willing to give up what you think you know about it because it's a framework, it's
a scaffolding. It's a scaffolding. The Kabbala itself is not capital t truth. If anything, what you will experience through it is much more of an essentially true nature, particularly in your experience.
So that's the whole key. You know, we don't want to over intellectually.
I say this with hundreds of books surrounding me, but you really don't want to over intellectualized magic. You want to have a really, really firm understanding of what you're doing for context and for safety, yes, safety, But at the end of the day, you can't think your way into a transcendent state.
You know, it's just not going to happen. So and then the the.
Last thing I want to say about the Kabala is that you have to understand where it comes from. The Kabbala, the hermetic Kabala given you know as the lineal diagram, the vertical diagram of the tree of life, ten sphere oft the twenty two nety vault, the paths, and then you get to three, the the veils of negative exists since the four or really five worlds and the letters of the Hebrew alphabet with the tarot correspondence is that's it.
That's the symbol system right there.
But it ultimately comes from a Hellenistic background. All of this stuff actually has more to do with the Greco Egyptian innovations that carried over this Pythagorean tradition, right Gematria. In ancient Greece, this was called Isobseephi, right, yes, right. The cephi were the little counting stones.
They didn't have.
They didn't use numerals like we use Arabic numerals, and we've abstracted it. The Greeks were counting with stones and seeing what shapes do these numbers make. That's where you get this concept of triangular numbers, square numbers, oblong numbers. It's because they were arranging pebbles. So isopsephos means equal pebble. So you add up the numerical value of this word, it's got this many pebbles, and this one over here, this word has the same amount of pebbles.
They're related.
The word Goematria comes from the Greek hel matria geometry. So the Kabbala almost in its entirety, is Hellenistic.
But here's the issue. We don't have the Hellenistic tradition. We have the philosophy, we don't have the practice. So myself, being a Hellenistic Theurgic reconstructionist the best of my ability, I just got back from a nine day excursion in Upper and Lower Egypt with a group of about twenty people. I reconstructed Theurgic rituals. We were on site.
We had private access to the Osirion, to the Sekhmet sanctuary to Dendara. I taught astrological magic on the roof of the temple to hatorat Dendra, so we were doing all this Theurgic Hellenistic stuff. It was absolutely incredible. But at the end of the day, the Kabbala is the better system practically because it's full, we have it. It's
a living system, it's a living tradition. Is extremely difficult to have a framework that works with the Western modern mind that is as effective and is as beautiful as the Hermetic Cabala.
So that's why I still use it.
Is an answer, jan.
I think it was a great answer.
I only differ with Ike on a small detail, is that I like, maybe this is untrue, maybe this is just a speculative idea. I always pausit the origin of the tree, or at least maybe it's reintroduction into the kind of Central Asian landscape in the first and second century b eighty in the exile period from Babylon. And
I think if you look at what the Zoroastrians. I'm sure you're very familiar with the Sike, but if you look at what the Zoroastrians are doing in this emergence of the filosophy of religion and how they were applying qualities to God.
I think it's very similar in some ways to.
Like how Ramic was thinking about Kabbala much later on, and like where they were sort of congregating. I always talk about this as like Lake Baikal, and you have sort of the Buddhist hermitages contract Buddhists, you have the Kabalistic hermitages, you have the Tanngriest hermitages, all existing in this period of like the thirteenth to sixteenth century, and
they're all together. And I'm not saying that they were speaking to each other, but obviously, as you're saying, they are speaking a language that is parallel that can be mapped to the tree, that can be understood as expressions of it, or maybe expressions that then can be discerned and categorized epistemically into the Saphra.
Yeah, and that's why ultimately the tree is the better example, particularly because it's got the paths, whereas in the Hellenistic version you have the ten, but they're nested, right, they become the the the ogdoad or what we call later on the the anima mundi or the Thetolemaic model of the universe, so they're nested, whereas the tree of life extracts them into this vertical kind of hierarchy or analogy,
and then it's the paths show these relationships. But I would say that first of all, there's this idea of Hellenic orientalism, which is very very apropos if you. But but to drill back to to my further point of why I think it had much more to do with the the Neo Pythagorean system is specifically this there are well, there's a couple of reasons. There are modern words in the in use in kabalistic circles today Hebrew Hebrew Cabalistic that Hassi them still use Greek words to discuss like
hayuli highly matter. You know David Kyams Smith who is Micabala teach here where one of them. He's expressed this to me. He's like, you will find Greek stuff littered throughout their tradition. They even call him a heretic, which is the word apocauros. Apocauros is a corruption of the Greek word epicurus, like the philosopher, the hedonist, the materialists, they considered him. You know, a heretic in the philosophical tradition.
So there's a lot there. But more to the point, when you look at the numerical relationships, particularly the Shira, it's the Tatractees, it's the Pythagorean toa Tractees. The principles still remain the same, it's just arranged differently and really get you get around the first and second centuries of the Common Era, the population of Alexandria, Egypt was between thirty five and forty percent Jewish. So this this period
is called the period of Hellenized Judaism. You get the septuagen translation of the Hebrew Holy Books, you get the Merkaba tradition, which was Hebrew theorgy, you get the Hekka Lote, you know the palaces which are organized according to the this this nested system of cosmology, the same thing. And yeah, so you get all of that in this really interesting time. But to bring it back to your point, Pythagoras was
from Samos. Okay, Samos is extremely close to Anatolia. He would have been more familiar with the Lydians than he would have with with Athenians or you know, people on mainland Greece. So one of the ways that this is represented is that Pythagoras's philosophy was East was influenced by this sort of like, I guess what we're calling the greater West now, you know, we don't want to necessarily
break off the quote unquote Middle East. A lot of scholars are saying, well, they contributed to the history of ideas in the West, so it's the greater West. But either way, one of the ways that they represented the origin for Pythagoras's knowledge is to represent him as wearing pants. Very interesting thing they say that he wore pants. That's not Greek dress. Greek dress is Tunic hymation. They didn't
wear pain would have looked and seemed ridiculous. And also some of the more popular depictions of Pythagoras in terms of statuary have him with a turbine on as well. So this again, this stuff is all kind of from all over the place. But the evolution is very very
interesting to watch. And I do think because of some of the things you're saying, these qualities of God and this this verbiage that tracks onto the tree, I think that that is why the tree is still or not just the tree, but the hermetic cabalistic system is still the best practical framework for magic.
Thank you so much.
I I just want to say that the David Haym Smith book The Blazing Dew of Stars is probably my favorite personal favorite.
Kabbalistic texts, So I just want to shout that out.
David will like that.
One thing you did mention before, and I know me and JUNI are both big fans of Pico. I think that was actually a very pivotal point too, like like what you're mentioning before, because I feel like when he did that, I feel like it just opened up the doors for many different types of people looking at the kabbala differently, Christians, Catholics, occultists, you know.
And I feel like.
Once they did that, like if you're kind of just for me, it looks like it was on and popping after he brought that stuffing. One thing I did want to ask from your opinion, and it's something I've kind of had other people talk about slightly here and we don't have to get too in depth for this, but in your opinion, do you see well, we'll put it
this way. In my opinion, I think that Christianity, it was actually highly influenced by a lot of Neoplatonists and people that were actually kind of considered occultist in a sense.
Would you see that as kind of being possible.
Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, this stuff wasn't a cult.
It wasn't esoteric until it was until the Enlightenment had its way with us, you know, I mean they were. There's so there's a tradition, i'd say, in the earliest eras of Christianity, right when we're calling it Christianities, right, this is a similar idea today. There's many sects and divisions in Christianity, but early on it was a group of what they call eCos which like ecosystem in Greek, that's how you say a house. There were house churches,
people meeting in houses, little little, tiny, tiny communities. That's who Paul was writing to. And at that stage, right first, second, third centuries, you get a very very specific Platonic and Neoplatonic influence in the theology. In particular, let's not forget that the New Testament was written in Greek, which somehow a lot of people still don't know that. But again it's it is very Hellenized in that it utilized the
specific Greek philosophical or metaphysical terms like logos. Right in the Joanine prologue one John in the beginning was the word. The word used there is logos, and logos means so much more than just word. It means order, it means pattern, it means you know, paradigm, archetype of the system. It's not just saying the word. And this is why God in Genesis, right, especially if you've read the work of this scholar who recently passed Russell Gimerkin. In Genesis, how
does God create? How does God make the order? He speaks it into existence. God doesn't fashion light out of a light bulb. He says, let there be light.
So there's this whole thing.
It's a very very Hellenic and Hellenistic sort of tradition. But in the theology, which is not technically it's derivative from the scriptures. Not in the scriptures, you get the Holy Trinity, Father's son, Holy Spirit. Well Tertullian, who was an early church father, would have been swimming in these neoplatonic circles in.
That time.
He introduces this idea of the Holy Trinity, and he says, today persona I una substantia, three persons, one substance. This idea ultimately comes out of the Platinium neoplatonic idea. Of the three hypostheses, we have the one that is the three somehow the one is simultaneously three. God is creative, Deity has to uh simultaneously exist in the beginning in three phases of activity that are that are you know, coterminous code contemporary, it's all happening at the same time.
So yeah, that gets brought in. Then you get the hierarchies that.
Iamblicus was using, right the ae Ambleaki and hierarchies for theorgy. The the third century Neoplatonic philosopher Eamblicus of Calquis, who wrote on the Mysteries and gives us the whole textbook of Greek theogy that so much of our ritual is based on even.
In the modern day.
He comes up with this stratification of of uh spiritual ontology like a ladder of being, and he calls these the gods in the greater kinds, and it gets really really harry. If you want to know more about it, did a whole video of it called what is Theorgy? On the arcanean podcast. But long story, shirt is this guy that we now call Pseudodionysus. He takes that hierarchy
and he changes the nomenclature. Okay, so in the pagan Greek system, they had angels and archangels, but they were lowered down, and then above that were these things called the en cosmic gods, the hypercosmic gods, the liberated gods.
Well, if you're a.
Christian, you can't call anything god but God. So he changes the nomenclature, but the way he describes them, the functions remain identical. So yeah, one hundred and ten percent, you get a tremendous amount of esoteric philosophy that completely shapes Christianity. And if you've ever gone to like a Greek or a Catholic mass, this is when they say the thrones arabeem, serabeam, seraphime, principalities, when they go down that whole archangel's angels. That's the pseudo Dionysian hierarchy that
got taken out of Greek paganism. So so there is a tremendous The thing is like, you can don't get your wires crossed and think that they were stealing it's not what they were doing.
If I wanted to swim from one from I'm on this part.
There's water between me. I'm going to that port and I want to swim, or I want to row my boat. I'm rowing my boat. I'm rowing my boat. That's the technology, the technology of my you know, whatever I'm doing, my actions, my work. I'm trying to get there. If my destination changes, do I get out of the water and get a helicopter. No, I'm applying what I'm already doing to a new destination, because it's it's science to them, you know, it's this
is this was their science. So they didn't steal so much as they reoriented the traditions they had in a new direction. And so, but later on, and this will probably cap my point. Later on you get like Thomas Aquinas, albertist Magnus, and these guys are the Scholastics, and they're much more Aristotelian, but still obviously they're theists. So there
remains a very strong mystical and metaphysical component there. I would say Christian mysticism is almost entirely informed by the idea of emanation and return that we get from Platinus.
Yeah, that's why. It was another reason why I asked you.
I had I don't know, maybe a month or so ago, maybe more than that, I did like a solo show on Platinus and there was just a lot of stuff on there that I was like, Yo, you really influenced the shit out of Christianity.
And you know what I had noticed too. And again I just use this as an example.
It's probably not the best for everybody because I haven't had the pleasure of going to an alcoholics anonymous meeting, but like, if you go there that's based on the Big Book, but then you will hear all these phrases that actually aren't in there. It's like, oh, you know, I don't even remember him anymore, but they aren't actually
in the Big Book, but they sound great. I feel like a lot of ideas that a lot of Christians kind of have that technically aren't in the Bible is kind of like influenced by things that Plotinus and other people said. I think even one of them is maybe the idea of seeing you love the ones and they after life. It's not in the Bible, but that Christians believe that, and I think that might have actually came from Plotinus in a sense.
Well, you know, it's that goes as far back as as as Egypt.
But are the main myth that we have for it in the West comes from the book ten of the Republic, Plato's Republic, the myth.
Of er Oh maybe it was played on.
Yeah, still Tousinas. He expands the metaphysics of Plato tremendously. But the thing is this, uh, and this is what I tried to establish with a formless fire. We cannot underestimate the foundational significance that is still present, not in a vestigial way, but it's here now in our traditions, our entire way of looking at this stuff, whether you're a Christian or whether you're a ceremonial magic it's all
predicated on Hellenic and Hellenistic philosophy. Now, all this stuff existed in sumer and in Babylon and in ancient Egypt, for sure, but we don't get it in a preserved sort of digestible format that is cognizable to the Western mind in the same way that say, the Platonic dialogues are or the writings of Proclus are. We have not inherited that, or at least it hasn't penetrated from academic translation into the mainstream.
So really the water we're swimming in is hellenistic here.
So all of those philosophies constitute what we would now post Enlightenment, post industrial revolution, what we would now consider esoteric or occult. But you know, classical arithmetic, you know, the quadrivium arithmetic, geometry, harmony and arithmetic geometry, harmony and astronomy.
These were.
Not separated from an idea of an essential metaphysic, so they they it. So only later did we kind of drain the the the blood out of the you know, our quote unquote hard sciences.
Now, well, like even in the past, and most of these people that you see, like I mean I've even covered Saint Hildegarden, she was a polymath.
I mean, you have all these people that are actually polymen. You know, there was a lot more.
They looked at everything and like applying it to like every single subject that they studied, which hence is why I have bring so many people on the show, because I'm not a polymnize myself, so i gotta bring everybody with different things together try to make sense of something. So you know what I'm saying like, I think that is another huge problem too, is just the education system and the way that we look at things.
It's just not the same anymore.
Yeah, it is a huge problem.
It's an existential problem for human beings in the twenty first century. We're really we can't it's hard to it's hard to talk about.
So I'm not going to.
But ultimately we really need a drastic reevaluation of education.
But it's happening.
It's happening right now, and it's happening in these spaces right I'm I'm currently studying the Severn Liberal Arts. I'm also teaching the Quadrivium and all of this is happening online. So I'm not going to a university. I'm not taking out, you know, paying Fannie May. None of that's happening. I'm sitting here. I'm not going to be twenty thousand dollars
in debt. I am going to interact with a small group of people, you know, compared to a lecture hall, and we're going to discuss you know, uh, without bias, without reduction, reductive materialist bias and being afraid to feel foolish,
you know. Like, but that's why i made my channel, because I saw a lot of scholars out there doing their thing, and I wanted my channel to be a place where belief was not a four letter word, is not a dirty word, and we come together in these spaces and we learn, you know, and we explore ideas of the the I would say antique or magical worldview maybe let's call it.
I like that. Well.
I do think it's a lot easier for people to actually find what they're looking for now, especially with the Internet like you're getting in.
Yeah, I mean, like the places podcasts like this where you guys are having so many people on it's I mean, and it's it's free, you know, people just can consume this stuff and get like a real education.
It's it's very high value.
That's what I try. That's what I'm shooting for. Thank you.
I'm trying trying my best. That's what I got someone on like you. Is anybody here when I ask this guy any questions or anything? Before I keep going, I have a question.
I really liked your uh, your bringing up how the Hebrews used the Greek words to kind of build on their understanding of what they may have been looking at prior to getting these new words for kind of new mapping of the system, if you will, and and to that them, these different streams of systems or information coming together and enhancing. I really like that you brought together the East and West to speak broadly, but just the
different studies from the Eastern and West and traditions. And could you maybe expound on how that has helped you understand the different streams by you know, understanding the chigung and the reiki energy systems, and how you might have explored the Western ideas with the Eastern knowledge and maybe vice versa.
Yeah, that's a great question.
It's kind of, you know, my big project, I guess my life's work is trying to show because it's it can't just be done in a single book like in Etheric magic. It's kind of the introduction, but it's part of a larger conversation. And I spent a lot of years engaging in what I called, you know, spiritual exoticism. I went to the farthest parts East and looked at zen and looked at yoga because I didn't understand what was under my nose. But now when I come back to these systems.
I see that.
Culturally on like a cultural DNA level A blueprint level. I understand the Western system more than I understand the vernacular, the nuances, the subtleties of something like zen which was my first meditative practice.
I studied with the Zen ro sheets says en meditation. Uh, And that's great.
If you put a gun to my head and said you got to choose meditation or ritual, there's no way I could part with my meditation.
You know, It's just I just can't do it. But the understanding of.
These things really, for me, it starts from the Western perspective.
So what have we got? All Right?
I'm into magic. I love magic. Let's look at some of the the you know, the quintessential magical texts in the West.
Well, you look at you got to read on the mysteries, because he gives the whole system of what he called, you know, Eamblicus calls sinthema da, which then Agrippa right, Heinrich Cornelius Agrippa, writing.
Like eleven hundred years later, he calls it the Latin sigillum. And this all means signatures. It's why you have a certain incense for a certain planet or a certain god. It's literally why use a certain herb. It's because their essences are diffused throughout everything in the cosmos. If you read what they were talking about the gods.
The gods really are numbers, but we anthropomorphize them so that we can understand them through human like or you know, animal like images.
But at the end of the day, it's very very abstract.
They're the root essences of all causality that diffuse themselves and create everything in the cosmos. So a rose, for instance, the petals, the aroma, the silky texture, the color that's gonna be very Venusian or aphrodite if you like. But arose typically has thorns, not Venusian, very marshall, it has roots, very Saturnian.
So this as.
This is, it really has tremendous bearing on Agrippa's system of magic. That is where everything you know, especially Golden Dawn magic comes from. So then you start looking and you're like, all right, we've got all the theory, we've got all the philosophy, but where is the actual system And that is not as well preserved in the in.
The West, in systems of like Chinese medicine.
Really most forms of traditional medicine, particularly in the East these are kind of these right under your nose, secret agglomerations of this tradition of signatures, right, and we've kind of thrown it out in the West in favor of allopathic medice in the pharmaceutical industry, which at first was, you know, really really reliant on something like Paracelsian medicine, which itself relied on a humoral medical diagnostic system, which
is based in the signatures. So if you go and you study Chinese diagnosis, Chinese medical sort of correspondence theory, you will then be able to go back and apply this stuff to magic. You'll have the system. Takes a lot of time, but it's there. And so like this is just an example. It's one of the ways I kind of accidental.
I didn't know. I didn't know this was going to be the case, you know, but in one of the.
Ways I kind of accidentally found that, like you, you have to bridge these hemispheric cultures.
That's the only way you can get the whole thing.
I like what you just said about I guess numbers. God, God's I don't I might self. It's kind of like I don't know. I guess maybe it's a little risk not risky but controversial to come out and say, I myself, I really don't believe all those things are like real, like I do think they're a little bit different than they than people look at.
That's just my opinion.
Yeah, yeah, I've even gone into uh, you know, real quick and you're just weird question, And then I think, my boy, the branch over here has something he wants to ask you, only because you kind of meant we're kind of getting onto it now about the gods that maybe being real in that sense, and uh, and looking at being I guess a polymath looking at some other things that like Robert Flood has done or other people, you start seeing the brain in the eyeball popping up.
Do you every think that any of that stuff is there any symbolism or cultism or whatever it might actually be like pointing at that type of stuff as well.
Yeah.
Well, the thing is.
This also can sort of reduce down to again Platonic philosophy, the relationship to cite and the mind in the Platonic, in the in the the Platonic and Neoplatonic, and therefore another system that was influenced by Greek words. A lot of people nowadays we want to sort of reinvest the Egyptian culture with its own sort of spiritual tradition that we understand. So we say, oh, the Hermitica is Egyptian,
but the Hermitica is Hellenistic. It uses it, it is completely, It uses Greek philosophical term, does not use Egyptian philosophical terms. Logoss key, methampsychosis. All of these ideas come out.
Of that tradition.
But the key there is in book six and seven of the Republic when Plato'scrates describes the allegory of the cave right, which is the paradigm of all Western initiation, moving from darkness to light, and then he says, why the sun? Why is the sun your image of God? He says, because the sun is to cite what God is to the mind and knowledge. So there is a sun behind the sun that illuminates in here. It doesn't
happen anywhere else. It illuminates in here, but the Sun itself as an emissary what we would call the you know, the body in Platonism in Theorgy, we would call the sun ilios. We would call that the body of the subluminary demiurge, and the purpose it serves is to give us a sort of express analogically the principle of illumination, so that we it gives us sight and it gives us knowledge. Right, you can't know something if you can't discern its characteristics, and we can't do that in the dark.
So there's that relation that automatically comes to to my mind when you bring that up, because well, we know Robert Flood would have been very familiar with with these traditions. But also you know, that's that's kind of the that's kind of what I'm steeped in, So that's stuff obviously that that platonic hermetic sort of filter is what I'm going to be looking through everything at.
Yeah.
I even think even in the Enneads, I think they had a thing on site, So yeah, they're even like kind of like getting about like the whole like relationship between like I guess, sight and what's in between even like what's in between here and the table I'm looking at, Like, yeah, Well, and the ancient study of.
Light was called optics because the Greeks there were in terms of their their sort of physiological philosop of either medical philosophy or philosophy anatomy, it was.
They were.
Really of two frames of mind. You saw things because light entered your eyes, or there's this other really cool thing. You saw things because light was exiting your eyes and whatever. Those beams concentrated on broad knowledge. I mean, that's kind of cool idea to think about walking around with laser beams firing out of your eyes. But but so so yeah, this idea of light, illumination and sight are very very intertwined.
I mean even in modern even in modern biological.
Sciences, it's just you know, it's a little it's a little less focused on that relationship and it's more focused on.
Anatomy itself. I would say nowadays.
All right, thank you very much. I appreciate that answer. That was great.
It's probably the most I got out of anybody I've asked that. Normally nobody weird some people out, so I don't think they'll come back on. Actually there's one or two people I did that too.
I was like, sorry, I mean, these are these are awesome prompts. You guys ask great questions and and and and and give great comments.
Thanks the branch.
I think I saw you in chat. You were looking to ask a question and I don't want to leave you out, so you jumped in late.
What's going on?
Hey, guys, it's a pleasure to be here. It's nice to meet you. I likewise thanks for hosting me. Some of the things you discussed kind of jumped out at me, so I wanted to mention, Oh, first of all, Nick, what the polymath thing? They reminded me of how the Mason is instructed to learn the liberal sciences. So when you so, when Mike was talking about the classes he was taking, I was thinking, oh, well that's you know, what you're supposed to do as a Mason, right, is.
To shape your mind. And but what is the purpose of that?
Right?
So I think it might be partly so that you can relate the correspondences appropriately and or teach perhaps. But anyhow, so you mentioned you were a carpenter, speculative Mason at the very least, and the magician. So I was curious you might be able to kind of answer a question I've asked other people before, because you did mention the body of Christ being like the sun.
Right, so where they gather is the church?
Right?
So I've always found it kind of strange. Why did the church change the way it did. From your opinion as a carpenter, maybe you have some insights because the temple door was supposed to face east right, and so with this relationship to the sun and the body of Christ.
You know, I'm starting to wonder are we losing things like this, the little details in our communal ritual practices, because well, it's more convenient just to put it on the strip mall location, So we're not really pay attention to the actual blueprints that were provided to us in Litviticus, for instance. So as a carpenter, maybe you can answer that question, because you know how important blueprints are.
That's the mind of God, right.
Yeah, well, well that's the thing.
I'm glad you brought up the several Liberal arts of the fellow Craft's degree. It's actually how I got interested in Jamie's work. He did a master work called Approaching the Middle Chamber that just totally floored me. And he goes through for the fellow Craft because a lot of times it's this midpoint in your Masonic journey and you're just like, Okay, get me through. I want the master Mason, and like, also, really, how you're going to learn the
seven Liberal Arts? But They're really important because when you begin to understand them, and then at the same time as I'm learning them, right, I'm practicing carpentry, I'm I'm apprenticing under a master carpenter, and you begin to see that it's like we have this idea of like sacred geometry nowadays where we're sort of like reinvesting geometry with a kind of this this almost like quasi sci fi overlay and like making it like this really really sort
of abstracted, strange thing that is is I don't know, it's part.
Of the spiritual esthetic.
And we have to do that because the geometry was was made, you know, post it started with euclid but after when we discovered non Euclidean geometry, we went completely hard science with this stuff. And what studying the Liberal arts shows you, right, because they're derived ultimately from Plato's Republic. He gives these seven sciences that the that the philosopher king must be educated in Aristotle kind of bears them out.
And then you get.
These official particularly in the Scholastic era that we were talking about earlier with Thomas Aquinas, and this is the way that they learned things and what was passed down from that philosophical tradition. That metaphysical tradition was the theology of number, right, the theology of arithmetic, the theology the metaphysic of geometry, the metaphysic of music and harmony. And
it was inherent. It was completely inherent. So if you were to study, particularly as a modern person, the seven Liberal arts the way that they were traditionally taught, you would essentially the entire time be discussing the way that God creates the universe. This is very important to the master mason. And not only that, because it's constantly focused on a metaphysic, there is no point.
Right.
So there's this really great guys h third third century.
Mathematician Neil Pythagorea named Theon of Smyrna, and he wrote this really really cool short treatise but dense, called mathematics useful for understanding Plato and the big differentiation you see in this book. In the way that he wrote, he says, Okay, here's your arithmetical theorem, here's your geometrical theorems, here's your harmonic theorems. Right, But before he launches into all this this hard science, hard math jargon, he says, beginning at one,
beginning with unity, beginning with unity. And what he's doing there is he's emphasizing the priority of God. He's emphasizing the priority of the absolutely doesn't venture into any discussion of mathematics without first invoking God. What do we say in masonry, You know, no man should enter into any greater or important undertaking without first invoking the blessings of Deity. So always bringing that back to the table. And I think that this understanding in general of the theological and
metaphysical nature which is inherent to everything we do. Losing that we have sacrificed our understanding of any of our traditions, whether that's a lot of times occult, whether that's Christian, whatever it is. We don't we have inherited things that we don't understand how to use because we've basically taken the knowledge of that mechanic out of our lexicon, out of our brains.
We don't think like that, We don't understand that. We don't know what they thought.
Why because when we read what they wrote, we're constantly trying to filter it through our modern lens, you know, which that will just screw everything up. You'll know, ever understand what they're talking about if you keep trying to stick it through what you know. So the key is then to go back. And it's a tremendous undertaking, and I will do it for you, but but the key is to go back and to learn exactly what they learned,
you know, learn it. Don't sit there and try and say, oh, well, you know, maybe they meant this and what if it?
Shut up?
Learn what they learned.
That's it, Okay, Then you can then once you've assimilated that information and you've seen the way that their minds thought, the way that and then you've you've you've affected a restitution of the ancient worldview, of the holistic worldview that we're all trying to get our hands on reenchant our worlds.
Right, I mean, it was, it's right there.
But you've got to shut down and shut off this part of your brain that wants to, you know, reduce everything and make it fit one to one square peg square hole into what you understand, because it's not going to happen.
You need to be re educated.
So that's I mean, I don't know how that ties into I know how it ties into carpentry, because like I don't know why, but I can tell you definitively ninety degree angle is the strongest one and that you can use.
Right.
I don't know why, but that's a law.
That's a law that exists regardless if there are ever any ninety degree angles ever anywhere. That's a law that exists independent of its material expressions. So in that way, I understand it was really cool to go through carpentry and this time of liberal.
Arts at the same time.
But in terms of Christianity, I think that's a big part of it, you know, I really think it's a big part of it. We don't really understand any of this stuff, and we're trying to we're trying to understand esoteric with our exoteric minds.
Yes, that's not gonna happen.
That's well said. I like that branch. Did you did you want to ask anything else? Was they could? Well?
Yeah, maybe, and thank you so much.
I appreciate that.
I guess I would add to it a little bit because he's familiar with how a lodge looks, and so I've kind of always felt like lodges look more like what a church should look like, kind of for these reasons, because they kind of preserve some of those Old Testament things. So just by going and attending lodge and watching how you know the officers walk and ambulate and you know,
never go between the worshipful Master and the altar. You know, there's a lot of different things you can observe and kind of glean over time, and you don't get that in church today because they've kind of sanitized everything and.
Just did it's the death of detail.
You know.
So I was just curious if he had any particular insights maybe like does he ever go to church or if he has, because you mentioned like attending Greek Orthodox I think before, which I have as well in the past, and there are some insights to be gathered there because like they still have the Econostosis, for instance, which is kind of like the holy Holy Yeah.
Yeah, those little those little saloon doors.
Yeah. So yeah, just kind of of the opinion, like do you think that maybe in the future we're gonna because you know, think about it, magically, what the church slash temple is constructed of was actually prescribed, you know, and so we've replaced it with you know, discount drywall
from the whatever and so on and so forth. So I think magically we've kind of insulated ourselves from having like an authentic religious type experience or a static experience maybe, And so I think that's something that some of the mysteries of the old days we're trying to preserve through their practices, and the Masons kind of have maybe, even if it's kind of become mundane. I think they were trying to do that in their own way as well.
So I was just curious, you think we'll have like a revival of maybe a return to amples and churches looking at how they maybe should or having some type of morph of a focus on these structures.
So I guess that would just be kind of a follow up.
Yeah, yeah, well, I would say from the practical perspective, there are not many people who are able to build. We don't use the same materials anymore. To your point, we used to use stone, marble, granite, et cetera. It's a totally different way of working with material We use wood now and various you know, composites, synthetics and things like this.
By the way, no.
Matter what anybody tells you, there is no such thing as green building. It's all very harmful. I don't care what anybody tells you there's no such thing as green building, but the understanding of things like archways and the ornamentation, right, think of how ornate even.
Up until you know, early like the first quarter.
Of the twentieth century, you know, in nineteen twenty five something like that. You know, we were surrounded in beauty. Nowadays, you know, we have a very square, you know, modular kind of minimalist aesthetic. It robs our brain of being able to see what has been referred to as you know, archete. Texture is frozen music, music is liquid architecture. So it's we don't really have that anymore, you know, we don't
We don't have the beauty. And so I don't know, right because even in ancient Egypt, the intricacy and the proportionality, we don't think like that anymore. We can't, you know, And so I don't know that.
It'll return to to that.
But my question is is how important really isn't if if something else happens, which is what we're seeing. We're seeing a resurgence in in spiritual outreach. We're seeing the first time in a long time, we're seeing uh pagan temples being built in Greece. You know, the Greek government was given a little bit of a hard time. I think I don't really know the particulars of the whole story,
but uh, you know, there's this resurgence. They're building these you know, uh, these Grecian style temples and and putting on ceremonial uh in there. And on the other hand, you've got something like the edifice of Christianity, which is dwindling.
It's a good thing, and Ratzinger said this, the church will have to it's become such a monstrosity, it's become such a such such a caricature, a dark twin that it has no choice but to go through the alchemical fire, which will reduce it down to its most essential components.
That means we might go back to house churches. That's that's the kind I serve it, right.
I have.
I have an ordination, a clerical ordination, and a pre Niceen church, meaning a church that practices to the best of our ability Christianity the way it was before the Council of Nicea. Okay so, and and it's small groups of people meeting and having the sacramental, theurgic, alchemical eucharists. Because that's the Eucharist, is all those things. It's theurgic and it's al chemical. Okay, So this is what has to happen before we start understanding, you know.
How to And the same thing's happened in Masonry.
I am so lucky that my lodge gets to meet at you know, eighty Broadway, the Masonic Temple in Ashville.
It's gorgeous. But I've been all over this.
Country in the last three years to talk to brother Masons, and they have had to divest themselves of the financial burden of their beautiful, beautiful building, the meeting in the basements of vfw haws.
So that's happening too.
The Masonic numbers are dwindling, the Christian numbers are dwindling. But getting back to a core that I think is really important, sincere earnest people that are there really looking for the heart of what it is, I think that's
probably the most important. No matter what your spiritual path is, get back down to the elements, get back down to the foundations, and that should be the fire that we crowd around warm ourselves in this you know, spiritually arid and cold terrain of the twenty first century.
And may I please follow up, but once more, since his vocation was a trade skill, I think part of what we're seeing is because there are fewer people going into trades, we're also losing the ability to create these.
Things over time.
Right, So it kind of reminds me of like the fourth Turning kind of principle, is like maybe we'll have a renaissance of some sort of occur. But I was going to ask the question itself, however, was how important you think labor is for somebody having a sense of purpose from a cabalistic perspective. Matt has made the comment before, like you can find kabbala and everything, you know, whether
it be tennis, carpentry or whatever. As long as you're into it deep, you know you're going to reveal things.
And so I was just curious, if we move into this future of like a universal basic income and things like that, do you think we're going to see a further degradation of spirituality or couple kind of be forced into these small house churches, right, And that kind of reminds me of the days when they met underground, you know, And I can't remember what those were called the mith Raim's or whatever.
Yeah, yeah, and you see that in Egypt too, they use particularly the mortuary temple of had chepstud has early Christian crosses on it because that's where they would have to go out to the Valley of the Kings, away from civilization, under cover of darkness and these ruins in order to practice mass. And so yeah, there's really cool, these these little hideaways, in these secret places. Is in the markers they left, they are still there, you know, after like, yeah, fifteen hundred years.
But yeah, I mean, I don't really know. I do think that.
Well, you asked, what how important is labor? Well, I say this from a cabalistic perspective. We are in malkout of Asaiah or Asia. Okay, Asia, the fourth or fifth lowest world is that it's literal translation is the world of making.
This is what is meant in the Biblical Genesis. When by the sweat of your brow will you eat bread? You know, now is the time of toil. That's you must labor. You must labor here.
And I'm not saying everybody has to go out and become a construction worker, but you have to embrace a life of physicality because it's labor. Just especially nowaday to not be very unhealthy physically. That's a kind of labor to keep yourself, keep your body functioning optimally.
In twenty twenty five in America, so you know, especially now, a lot of us work online, sitting for hours.
It's that's completely new to me. I've only ever worked as a humph. I've done manual labor my whole life, you know, And now all of a sudden, I'm sitting here eight hours a day writing and I'm like, I need to get out of this chair.
These things are important.
It sounds crazy, but I mean especially cabitalistically, and you want to you know, use that you know, Jewish or Judeo Christian mythology from Genesis and the expulsion from the Garden was really saying, look, you have chosen. You have chosen to enter into a world that requires toil. It's not punishment, but it's you have chosen to enter into a place that requires toil. So so yeah, I think labor is important. I think trades are important. Well, a
lot of people don't understand. They think a carpentry is kind of like I think carpentry gets conflated with with general labor. You know, people that are like sweeping floors and Karen wheelbarrows. That's what you got to do when you start out. It's part of the apprenticeship.
You do the grunt work.
But carpentry is so incredibly intellectual. You are working with precision mathematics and then somehow you've got to get this out of the material. You've got to got to make no piece of no, no two by four straight, you know,
but you've got to figure this out. You know, you're fighting with the materials and getting them into mathematical geometric shapes that a don't make you lose a lot of money, because when you screw up in carpentry, you lost mone and B that the house or building doesn't fall fall in on everybody, and then you've got a real problem on your hands. Okay, so so it's not even just the labor, but it's like the I think we are.
Our modern civilization, especially the younger people, can really benefit from, you know, extracting the real time value of uh this mind body access and the interplay the intellect, and then taking what you've learned, taking that skill and applying it in real life.
It will just help you be a I think a more effective person.
That was great. Does anybody wanted to ask anything or set the wrap it up?
I asked a question like your your treasure trove of wonderful was to the massay, and I wanted to put or give you some prompts of of the things that you've been touching on and maybe if you could put them together. Partly because of my obsession with the topics you mentioned the tetractus, I wonder if and sacred geometry.
I wonder if you might.
Be able to share with us how the tetragrammaton is related to the tetractus, and at least in depiction of it, and and and and so forth. I just wonder if you could build on the tetractics and the relationship to the Word of God another another thing you brought up.
Oh yeah, oh yeah, the Word of God, very very good. Right, So that's the ineffable name of God, is the Tetragrammaton. It's also Greek that word tetra for grammaton, you know letters. So you've got the tetractys. Uh, try and do my best here for somebody that that maybe has never heard or seen it before. The tetractice is in a example of what I called before a triangular number. Okay, why because when you put it's basically any time you add in numerical sequence. If you add two to one, you
get a triangular number, right, because it's one two. You add three to two to that sequence, you get a triangular number. Get you add four, you get a triangular number. So one plus two plus three plus four arranged in a triangle, those little counting pebbles gives us tetractys, which is, it gives us ten one plus two plus three plus four those add to ten. The Pythagoreans who devised the system said, when you have ten, you have everything that is right, because ten is one on a higher arc.
And there's I'm giving a course right now called musical universalis music as magic, and we're you know, it's a huge part of it. Is exactly what I'm talking about now, this geometric and arithmetical overlay that allows us to use harmony and sympathy at magic. But uh so we can get into some hairy territory. I'm going to forego that because I don't want to beat anybody over the head with this stuff. But the ten therefore was the attractees was therefore their conception of the sub totality of of
the essential universal forces. Same thing with the spear oft on the tree of life ten right, and that's the whole cosmos. And it just refracts or fractalizes. Uh. Now, this figure, and here's something for the Masons, was reduced in Plato's Timaus to a series of numbers integers, and
they called this Plato's lambda. And along the right side right, so it's essentially you would have the tatrackt these as a full triangle, but the lambda is just extracting the apex and two sides of that triangle and not the base.
So it looks like a Masonic compass. It looks like compasses. Okay.
And at the top he placed he Plato gives us a series of really random they seem random numbers one, two, three, four, eight, nine, twenty seven.
And what he's doing there is.
He's there are two branches that start right theannas Smirtna says, beginning with unity, beginning with one at the top. You move down the right and you have the odd numbers right three nine twenty seven. Powers you move down the left side, you get the even numbers two, four, eight, So when you arrange the tetragrammaton on this, you essentially have the yode right because we leave we read Hebrew right to left, you have the yode moving down the side of uh, the odd numbers which are thought to
be masculine or positive. Now yode uh is if you want to talk about it in a hermetic cabalistic context, is it represents the root of the powers of fire.
And then it builds, It builds out from that yode yode hey yodhey vob yodhey vav hey.
And this is the sequence of generation, and it all goes back to this really interesting thing.
We call it.
We call it the tetragrammaton right, yes, thank you for putting this up. We call it the tetragrammaton four lettered name. There are only three letters in that name.
One of them repeats, there are only three letters, and what did we say happens in the beginning? The one is somehow three that hey.
Final, This is the window through which the eye peers out and perceives universe. It is a a new it's you could even picture yodey vav he kind of like walking through this window. This this this sort of thing.
It's it's.
The inevitable sort of fourth that gives birth to the new fractal permutation.
Uh.
And this is exactly what the atractice and this cycle of generation here, this arrangement of the words, this is what is trying to u to show you. But the thing is you you really need to understand what this meant to the to the Pythagoreans and neo Pythagoreans and the Platonists before you can understand everything else.
And then so you'd get.
One, three, nine, twenty seven, one, two, four and eight, right, which is just it's a sequence of adding numbers to other numbers. Adding one to one, you get two, adding one to two you get three. Then you go two to the power of itself, three to the power of two, three to the power of itself, two to the power of three, squaring and cubing, and essentially, as the lambda, it shows how God moves from a point to align to a surface. Right, that's why we call it a
square number creates a square right. And when you've got that little three above it, that exponent three that is cubing. So we've gone from point to line to surface to solid object. Effectively, the lambda and its expression as the tractus and.
The four elements of the name are showing.
How the divine literally manifests, penetrates into three dimensional space and.
Becomes something.
So I don't know if that really answers your question, but I've just I've been drowning in this stuff until I've learned how to swim in it. Uh So.
That was that was great. Thank you for sharing that. That that brought it all together. The word the tetragrammaton, the tech Tractus and Sacred Gem.
Yeah, because the word is logos, right order, and that's exactly what the tetractus is trying to show.
Order. It's how God orders the cosmos so that he can come into existence.
It also reminds me of maybe you might be familiar with this. I've heard there's the Masonic equation or idea where they say that the four is equal to ten.
Yes, yeah, absolutely, that's why it's called the tech tractys. Right, tetra is four in Greek, but there's but there's ten dots, but there's four lines. It's because again, four is the completion of everything, and because one plus two plus three plus four equals ten.
And when if you have ten.
You have everything, dopett May I ask that question real quick?
Go for a branch please?
Could this tet tracks also be a tool to look at when looking at the minor pip cards because they're all in tens of each suit's a ten, right, so is there anything there to glean?
Yeah? I would absolutely arrange them, because again.
We've got the tetractees is effectively representing the tree of life in a triangular Format's a precursor to the to the cabalistic tree of life. Okay, without the paths, it's but the thing is it's it's also drawn with paths, but they're angles.
But we won't get into that.
So what you do in the.
Hermetic kabala is you take the pip cards and you put them by number into the sphere out It would be the same thing, right, All the aces go to Ketter, all the two's go to Hawkma, all the threes go to Bena, all the fours go to has said that, so on and so forth, Geble different all the way
down to ten and malcout. Okay, so you could absolutely do that with the te tractors and the tattractice is essentially the biggest thing that I want to impress on people is that it's it's if you needed just a keyword, keywords for it's a formula of generation. That's how everything is created.
Yeah. One thing I can add, maybe, Joshua, is if you look into the Tarot of Bohemians from Papus, he goes into like connecting the Tarrat with the judev of hey, like the tetragrammaton. And then if you know already that it's basically the same as the tractus, and just just make the associations yourself. I'd also want to ask something to Ike. I don't know if you ever went about the works of the Archeometer from Saint Eve's.
I have the book here.
It's he basically worked.
With Purpose as well, who founded like Martanism and so on and on, and I found it very intriguing, very nice how it connects to what we were talking here, because the Archeometer goes about like it was basically saying Eve's idea of connecting all the like past mythologies, all the past you know, sciences and connecting everything in one, which like you mentioned, was already in the eighteen hundreds.
But they really they they knew the Kabbala.
So like he'll talk about Kabbala, but probably not the Kabbala that we know, because the Kabbala as we think, like tree of life with colors and whatever, the hermetic one when just came after it, right, So, but he gives a lot of nice examples, like we were talking about how you can construct things with angles, and then how maybe that angle will be connected to the same essence of a color or of a like a sound
or something like. That's what the the thing shows here, like you connect let's say maybe one of the numbers is with one of the colors and one sound and one astrology sign and whatever. So but the only problem with I mean, now we kind of have yeah, that's brands. Now, now we kind of have an English translation I've found or Solar found one of our lodge friends. It's not really the best, but I don't know if you ever encountered it before, which I think you should give it.
At least a skin through would be an interesting thing.
Yeah, yeah, I haven't looked at that.
I'm definitely aware of sez Or's I.
I'm gonna, yeah, emphasize your point there that the the sort of.
Martinist and especially the French way of utilizing the cabala is to this day very different. You'll meet people that come out of a French system, uh, never worked any anything Golden Dawn derivative, and they have almost they have very different attributions to the tarot cards.
But yeah, I absolutely I will check that out. I got to put it on the queue. Thank you very much.
Nice.
I think I'll send you on Instagram.
Yeah, thank you. But does anybody have any questions about the Golden Dawn?
Oh?
Yeah, you know what, I was gonna probably leave I was probably just gonna leave that out because it's already been an hour and a half and so yea, yeah, no, no, you're good on that, dude. No, maybe I'll have you back on some other time to talk about that, but yeah, we'll just I think this conversation was better not actually getting.
Into that topic. So good. Awesome, Yeah, yeah, this was great. Yeah.
Was there anything else, Gin or anybody else here have anything you wanted to ask before we wrap it up? Well?
I do have one, of course.
So you touched on something really interesting that we've kind of played with as a speculative idea in the Gray Lodge, like the there's five of us, but there's three of
us represented on the panel right now. But of the sort of aonic shift in religion, and so this is obviously a fall up to mass question, like sort of the decentralization, deinstitutionalization into these smaller networks, into these smaller nodes, you could even say, And I want your opinion on how that will also perhaps look in contemporary American magic or maybe even speculative in the near future of American magic, because you have a lot of people who many of
whom or all of whom perhaps you've spoken with, talking kind of about like not necessarily that they're abandoning their system or their lodge or their you know, traditional sort of frameworks, but they are kind of going away from the dogmatic, as you said, the klipas of the institutions. They are kind of crumbling, They are destabilized, and they are not carrying forward into the future perhaps even the
original or even the preserved meanings. So I just want to your appraisal of, like where do you think modern American magic is going to go? Do you see it being contained in a particular religious or traditional framework, or do you see something like new arising perhaps.
Well you know, what usually takes place is a.
Some form of synthesis between the push pull of diametric opposition. So where we find that in our communities, particularly regarding magic and occultism, that's going to define the boundaries the limit of the system, this opposition, and then somewhere in the middle they're going to meet and there'll be many manifestations of that.
Magic in particular, it goes through these growth spurts, and for better or for worse, say, if.
You look at it historically, at least since the eighteen hundreds, really happens right before a major world event that is.
Not necessarily fun.
Uh, but magic will kind of come to the surface because it's important, right, It's it's it's it's a way of of of healing the collective.
It's an opportunity to heal the collective. It's not a way to heal.
The collect because I feel like it's like anything else, it's up to the individual.
How are you going to use this?
Then that will determine whether or not it heals or hinders. But I would say there is a de institutionalization. But I see also in magic a thirst and a hunger for structure, and so a lot of people want to you know, kind of I don't know. It seems like they almost want to be like, they want to engage in a form of like esso territorism. Come into the Golden dawn for a little.
While, see what that's all about.
Structure sounds really nice, that might help. Then the thing is you get there and you're looking for this like confirmation bias. Instead of saying, oh, maybe this will change me, you're saying, oh, maybe I don't know, maybe more intellectually fat or something. And it's can be more information. Again, you can't think your way into this stuff. But there are a lot of people that are craving that structure, whether or not they can handle it. It's a different
story we have as modern people. Look at us now, we're you know, a bunch of talking heads. On one hand, it's great that the internet can bring us together, and on the other hand, there's a generation of people coming into this world that are completely abstracted from traditional community and social dynamics.
Okay, so people have a.
Really hard time dealing with the fact that there are other people here, you know, like in my physical space. So we need to work on that because I don't I Magic will collapse if it becomes a bunch of solo practitioners that are just communicating via zoom, because the same thing, all the same eclecticism that ultimately never real never it goes to the fur, to the ends, to the degree it goes to its furthest possible extreme, and
then completely dissipates rather than sort of crowding around. And I'm talking, you know, on a demographic level, not necessarily, I'm not speaking about individuals. I know for certain that's going to happen, but I was saying a demographic level, populations level. I see magic kind of turning into something completely different.
And this A lot of this has to do with.
Uh, you know, academia's sudden interest in what we do, which is not a bad thing, right. I have a lot of friends that are that are academics. I organized an academic conference in Egypt. But I would say that that somehow is going to in packed that and the sort of socially distant interactions is going to impact that. I do see people yearning for that group dynamic, but I do also find that when they get there, a lot of them, especially if they're younger, can't handle it.
They can't like the gold You come into the golden dawn and it is not a democracy. It's a hierarchy. Okay, there are three chiefs in every temple and you have to do what they say.
Now, we can't tell you to what diet to go on or who to hang out with, but it's still in that dynamic. There is a clear hierarchy.
People don't like hierarchy anymore because they're insecure to the point where that makes them feel intimidated or uncomfortable. Whereas in previous relationships or previous iterations of communal interaction, it was nice to find a little spot where you fed in, fit in. This is where my job is, and I'll work my way up. People don't want to do that anymore to a large degree.
So that's the trouble that we're going to have.
They want it, but when the rubber hits the road, it's uncomfortable, and so they decide, I'm going to go and do something else, and then normally they'll don't get me wrong, some people unfortunately suffer abuse at the hands of others. But I would say, certainly, while that is an issue, you know it can happen anywhere, and I think that it's not necessarily the rule.
I think it's the exception. But you.
You hear from a lot of those people who get burned. You know, they go on campaigns where they're making sure everybody knows what happened, and so.
I try to be a voice. It's look at golden do not perfect? Why because it's made of.
People and everything people do, everything people make. There's a religion, if it's a company, if it's going to be indelibly imprinted with our highest potentialities and our lows. Okay, there's no escaping that. Welcome to duality. So welcome to the realm. So so you know what we'll see.
It's an interesting question. You know, I'm not sure I have an answer.
I think that's the perfect sort of way to respond to that is to just say, yeah, it's in flux, let's see what happens and let's serve with it.
Yeah. Yeah.
Do you guys think that maybe that's what motivated the kind of the some of the names that were mentioned throughout Iambickolis or whatever, people like that. There's stories about how some of these folks would travel to other lands and so in that new system that they're now in they were a big fish way back in Athens or whatever.
But they go to Egypt and now it's like, well, now I'm a novice again, right, So do you think that that's kind of part of the hermit journey perhaps, is to seek out contemporaries or people that you can have fellowship with or something like that.
Is there an element of that there perhaps?
Yeah?
And I mean, don't underestimate the support system it can give you. You know, when I was a kid, I used to see things people in my hallway, you know, probably in like third grade, this stuff started really happening, and I didn't like it. I hated it, so I blocked it out. And then years later when I undergo a gold initiation, lo and behold the doors are blown off and all this stuff starts happening again.
So, you know, I'm waking up in the middle of the night.
And there are people in my room, you know, the figures, entities, whatever, with a visible appearance. I then go to like a support group of between three to ten to twenty people that all have different experiences, different backgrounds, and all have a firm, rather firm footing in this stuff, and I can use them as a sounding board.
Hey, should I go to a mental hospital? You know, like what what needs to be Am I losing my mind?
And then you'll have people kind of you know, because the average person is going to might freak out to stuff like that, you know, and might really my first inclination was like I'm going crazy, but it was ultimately through the support given to me by people in my first Golden Dawn Temple. The whole temple, right like a village really really talked me through that stuff. And now it's to the point where you know, I can control it instead of it really being a consistently jarring experience
for me. So I think support structures are are another way of apprenticing yourself to a path because ultimately, like it's not just about submission, it's to your point, it's very much about remaining an eternal student.
But you should have I personally think you should have many teachers.
Some would say at least one hundred and eight.
I don't know.
I don't have that much time, or I mean it depends who you're caught as a teacher.
Right, if you go outside and you look at a tree and okay, you learn something.
Yeah, maybe I can rank up that number.
Yeah, and and this and in this world right, there are so many teachers from beyond the grave, you know. Big one for me was Deonnfortune and uh, you know, I visited her grave in Glastonbury probably about six years ago, and you know, I kind of did it like, oh cool, I've been reading her books for years. I learned a lot about it. And then I get there and I just got so incredibly overwhelmed emotionally.
I was just bawling. I didn't even know why. It was like despite myself, you know.
And and yeah, I realized probably afterward that like, this person is a teacher to me.
I never met him, you know, never met her.
Well I could understand that. Yeah, I guess everybody jin or mad or Ethan. You guys, good a breach too. We'll wrap it up then, yeah, sorry.
Well thank you for having me on guys. Hell yeah, great, hell yeah, no, that was awesome. Sorry. We never did get to the Golden Door, but like I said, I'm quite happy with the way the show went. Anyway. I thought that was a good look.
I say this a lot. I've been called many things in my life, but never brief.
So that's great. It's awesome stuff. Jin real quick, do you want to remind everybody where they could find your stuff?
Sure? So I want to say thank you so much.
I this was honestly like one of the reasons I started podcasting was to have this conversation. And I've had many milestones like Nick and I have done lots of cool things, So thank you Nick. And also bringing and obviously it's led to open the door to bring people onto my show, so including Matt and Joshua and also the group show. We do the Gray Lodge, Speculative Cabala, speculative of colle Chakra, and speculative Narcissism every Friday night live on X So thank you guys so much.
Obviously, Joshua had the branch.
I will apologize because he was late because of me, So it was nothing to do with him or his punctuation. It was because I was late, So I apologize for that. But Joshua just had an episode drop on my show on Claymore So the Kabbala of Claymore. We go through the anime series and the manga series, so that's called
Faint Smile. I have an episode with Solar, our other co host, and the Gray Lodge dropping either today or tomorrow morning with Gregory Peters who wrote the new a on Tantra and I have lots lots and lots coming up with lots of interesting authors and so thank you so much, and of course thank you Matt for being our webmaster and building out our site and all the hard work you do for the Great Lodge and keeping our YouTube channel like and subscribe and if you want
to follow me at wokongribornwuk O and g Reborn on Twitter and then the show at Threshold Saints and anywhere you.
Get your podcasts. So thank you guys, all the whole panel and especially I of course thank you.
Thank you Ja. I'm glad you made it today, sir and Matt Moore. What is going on?
Man?
Let everybody know where they can find you a site and everything, for sure.
Yeah, thanks a lot. Cho is a very intriguing conversation. I perspond with a lot of stuff. You the way you think and Swan so very good. Always nice to have these type of things. And yeah, everyone can find me at at Metmore nineteen. That's going to be on Instagram, Twitter, YouTube, TikTok, Twitch, maybe some other place. There's also my website that's Cabala dot com k A A B A L A h
dot com. A lot of stuff going on there. Just made some updates this week is also just opening myself more to reading because now it's much faster to do it.
And so if you are interested in that, just DM me any of those.
Thanks about me of course, thank you very much and Indigo, sir.
Piece that was awesome, Mike, thank you so much for sharing all your knowledge and wisdom. I really appreciated that and everyone. I appreciate you guys so much. Easy to find on all the social media, and I appreciate people reaching out and communicating and articles dropping soon and writing frequently. So yeah, again, thanks so much.
I thank you Ethan. I appreciate you making it again. It was early for you and the branch. What is up sir?
Thank you for hosting Nick.
It's a great pleasure to meet you again.
Ike Jin did a great outro for me, so all I could add to that is I did recently do a blurb on Symbolic Studies soon to premiere video and Stagitty areas Symbolism, so check him out on Twitter and YouTube and does some really good work that's a wonderful gathering of people.
I really appreciate being a part of this.
Thank you so much for the invitation, of course, thank you for making it.
And finally, if you want to let everybody know where they can find all your stuff again.
Yeah, thanks so much guys for having me on.
Truly, thank you for the work that you continue to do and to give to our communities some valuable Thanks everybody that tuned in for the live stream. If you want to know anything more about me, go to Ike Baker dot com I K E B A K E R dot com Again, use the chat widget in the bottom right corner. I've got a mailing list you can sign up for there. We actually just went through the Theology of Numbers. It's it's totally free. The emails are
digestible that go out every Thursday. I've got courses going on every quarter. The next one coming up is Techniques of Greco Egyptian Theorgy. It's going to be a distillation of the work that I did in Egypt with that group of practitioners. So I'll be teaching that via zoom and you can reach out to me and sign up for that. And yeah, check out my podcast, I've got some solid guests. You want to learn more about the
Golden Dawn. I've got two episodes up there about the history of the Golden Dawn, and I did an interview with my greatly honored chiefs Chicken, Tabatha Sisera up there, and you can hear about like you know them, with Israel, Regorty and and Grady McMurtry and things like that.
So go check that out, write to me whatever you like, and I think that's it.
Yeah, thanks guys, check out that episode myself. Yeah nice, Yeah, that's pretty cool man. I again, thank you so much for coming on it. Just really, I mean again, sorry we didn't get into the Golden Down. I'm glad I asked about your books at first, but honestly, the show went better than I could have asked or really am very proud to put the show out on my listeners. Hopefully we'll get you back on again in the future. But again, there was an awesome conversation, and I thank
you everybody who came and made it again. It was a little earlier, different time zones for everybody here, but we made it happen and I still think it's fucking wild. Have we both moved from New York to.
Yeah, I was gonna say, you know, we should do we should go to Pilot Mountain, Yoh yeah, yeah, it was it the Yeah, I told you right, I think I hit you up.
I was like, oh, have you been there? Because I want to go there and record that shit and film it and just check it out.
So it's like two hours from me, I'll go, yeah, yeah, we definitely all right, So definitely think we'll definitely talk about that in the future.
But man, for sure for sure. But uh yeah, and thank you everybody in the chat. I don't know if I think there were some new faces in there.
I don't know if it was from you maybe advertising it on your end or some listeners, but there were some people in there I don't think I've seen before.
So I appreciate you jumping on whoever. It is awesome. Yeah yeah, and uh again, that's why we go live.
I do appreciate the comments, regardless if they're good or bad or different opinions. I do appreciate at least people jumping in and trying to give their idea on the topic.
Uh yeah. And that's the end of another one and until the next one, everybody be well later